Open 825 - PYP X/Y: HoS_S [game over!]

[Cat Scratch Fever]

VOTE: the worst

It's been a while!

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Leaning town on Enchant.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

why?

I don't think Enchant read past iterations of PYP if he thought people would always first pick vig. I think scum almost certainly would have looked at what numbers and roles people have picked in past games.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Enchant, do you have any particular reason for the Titus vote?

Bee is Vigilante 100%.

Why would you reveal that?

-Harvey

It's obvious, every

townie

worth salt pick Vig.

Actually Enchant, do you think scum would also have first picked vig? Why assume Bee is town?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

... Only i here tried to being higher in quoue to get best roles?

No, I did this as well. This is my fourth PYP game (all different variants, but same drafting mechanism), and I have picked 9 each time, with an average draft position of 3.5.

I'm picking 9 next time

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I picked 19 last game and this time I picked 3. What do you guys make of that?

p-edit: TW!!! Hi

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I picked 19 last time to increase my chances of getting a PR, I guess

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Starved of social interactions, even for a big introvert like me, which is why I'm back here! Hope you've been doing well, or at least doing okay given *hand waves* everything.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

then you probably wanted to be a PR less this game

you're not wrong, although I was thinking more with respect to my alignment, since there was all this spec about numbers.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Maybe a 2, I feel like I usually have more gutreads by page 8 whereas I don't here...

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Not really because I can't read you tw

[Cat Scratch Fever]

413 - x

Whoever did this is a HUGE FUCKING NERD

I can't really explain why, but I feel like this is a town indicative post for Gamma

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Good posting from Penguin, pretty bad posting from Gamma.

Agree, disagree.

Same

Neutral posting from Penguin, good posting from Gamma

[Cat Scratch Fever]

We're just going to have to agree to disagree, Penguin.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Have I played with you before Miss Midnight? I'm feeling buddied

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Have I played with you before Miss Midnight? I'm feeling buddied

Of course you feel buddied, we're best buds. Aren't we?

Sure, we can be best buds.

I just feel like you've talked about me a lot compared to how little I've done this game so far.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Oh, that's not a bad vote. But I think I'd rather go

VOTE: Harvey and Haley

For their early townlean on Thor when Thor wasn't doing anything but setup speccing.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Did someone say cat gifs?

Spoiler:

[Cat Scratch Fever]

What do you guys think about H&H?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

It's a side effect of the alt. Can't be helped, sorry!

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I think we're all buddying each other, and I am living for this energy.

What do you guys think about H&H?

:shrug:
What's on your mind?

Can I interest you in a vote there? If not, why not?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I don't have a strong read there at all, but I also don't really think either of those users respond to early wagons in a way that's useful. :p

Something something insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I think you guys are just talking past each other and don't think either side is really coming at this in bad faith.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

VOTE: Thor

maybe we can get another wagon going with this

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Penguin's 534 implies he is doing something deliberate rather than blindly sheeping. Which is a post you later say you missed, but from his perspective, it looked like you were just ignoring it.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I agree it was subtle, so I believe you guys were genuinely talking past each other.

Now that we've cleared that up, let's all hold hands, do a little dance, and vote Thor!

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Mmhmmm. Nice try.

No, the nice try is to you for trying to bait me off Gamma.

If he isn't going to have actions taken against his ban baiting from above, I'm staying parked here.

Do you have a link to the post(s) that you were referring to here? I don't see where this happened.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Oh, that's not a bad vote. But I think I'd rather go

VOTE: Harvey and Haley

For their early townlean on Thor when Thor wasn't doing anything but setup speccing.

Note that it wasn't simple speculation about the setup.
Thor was making alignment reads based on it - why can't that be considered alignment-indicative?

What alignment reads did he make, exactly?

The only thing i found didn't match up with his stated reads or votes.

Sure, some examples:
98: 2 likely scum in group of 5
106: Titus town
228: Unlikely scum slots based on statistical pick history

If the response is that anyone can point these out, I'd argue that anyone could post anything - there's nothing specific to these that make them invalid as a basis for forming an early read.
Can you point out the contradiction between his setup-reasoned reads versus votes? That's more interesting to me.

-Harvey

It's easy to conjecture about what numbers scum would pick, but it's not particularly helpful - and their conjectures aren't necessarily accurate. I've seen all 3 scum pick double digit numbers for the express purpose of avoiding number collision, which did end up working out to scum's benefit. This kind of setup spec (or draft spec, specifically) read more like busywork to me. And consequently, giving him a townread in 202 seemed premature.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I'm townreading House as of this page

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I'm townreading House as of this page

Errr... as of the previous page

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I suppose you can say that, but it's not like he voted anyone in his scumpool by that point. How could you tell he was going to follow throughm, or if the draft spec reads even meant anything to him?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I guess I just don't see those posts as AI

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Yeah I suppose that's fair. It was an early read.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

hmm
can you explain why I'm tempted to join you on CSF?

I'm still interested in this explanation.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I think Thor, Bee, Heley and Helay, MM, House townie enough to pass.

Murder everyone else and we win.

VOTE: Cat

Can you explain this vote, Enchant? Are you scumreading me, sheeping Thor, or something else?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

ManateeGal, can you elaborate a bit on your Harvey read?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Is there a particular line of questioning you liked?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Speaking of engagement, is this level of activity typical for Haley?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

My last question wasn't specifically at manatee, more at the entire player list

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Speaking of engagement, is this level of activity typical for Haley?

So about that.
My other head took a break from Mafia a few months ago. He was down to give it another go as a hydra since this is my first game in a while as well, but still doesn't feel like playing.
Guess he might read parts of the game if I ask him to, if there's anything specific y'all want I'll ask.

-Harvey

Nothing specific, I was mostly wondering if her disappearance was AI

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I've been cooling on the idea that Thor is scum.

I think he's been forming reads in his own way and liked his read on house. I'm also willing to buy that his funposting is town posting.

And MM isn't a bad vote from his point of view.

I'm just unsure where to go at this point.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I've been cooling on the idea that Thor is scum.

I think he's been forming reads in his own way and liked his read on house. I'm also willing to buy that his funposting is town posting.

And MM isn't a bad vote from his point of view.

I'm just unsure where to go at this point.

Why not Enchant/H+H?

I'm trying to figure out which is better or if I should go elsewhere.

Why did you vote Harvey over enchant?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

@Enchant

well yea obviously but it still reads like performative outrage

I don't see how it's performative if House legitimately thinks pagetop counting is stupid.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Wasn’t sure how many enchant had but it felt like a sizeable amount, and certainly less than H+H

So you're not really opposed to a wagon on either atp, is my understanding correct?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

VOTE: MM

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Bee not townread now. Probably i am hypocrite, but she certanly doesh't care at all who is elimmed. As long as it's not her of course.

Where do you get this impression? She's been pretty vocal against a Thor wagon.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Oh sick, Flea is town.

What about flea caught your eye?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Bee not townread now. Probably i am hypocrite, but she certanly doesh't care at all who is elimmed. As long as it's not her of course.

Where do you get this impression? She's been pretty vocal against a Thor wagon.

?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Nothing wrong with being neuroatypical

[Cat Scratch Fever]

ngl I feel like miss midnight might be scum

Join us!

[Cat Scratch Fever]

This game seems very stale all of a sudden. I'm not sure what to make of it.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I'd agree that house stepped it up

, though I'll admit I'm not really a fan of his vote on me. In most of his other content I either agree or find the process servicable so im not going to let one piece taint completely my viewpoint.

Enchant is still doing pretty meh. I'm voting him just for pressure at this point but it doesn't appear effective and I'm really waiting for more from him so I can formulate a push or move somewhere else.

Stepped it up how? I feel like you were voting him just a few pages ago, so I'm interested in what changed your read there.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I'd love to hear your thoughts on my attack on Gamma, Fae/Gamma's positions, House, and Enchant.

I think House stepped up his play and has posted a lot I find myself in agreement with lately: I find that towny. What do you think?

-Harvey

My unsolicited opinion is- I thought it was a bit odd that out of the two people voting for you, you called out Gamma for having a limited variety of interactions lol. I'm curious to hear what your thoughts on Flea are, since the bulk of their interactions have been at or about you.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

i mean i voted house in 333

so a long time ago with a lot of house posting in between. huge amount of content to change my opinion. theres nothing specific that changed my mind on him just as i mentioned seeing him step up

You placed your vote on House a while ago, but I feel like you were projecting a scumlean there as recently as 1017 (pg. 41) without mentioning the content that swayed your opinion in between. You did mention House in 758, but that was a post reaffirming your vote.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

if enough people arent reading it the same way i am then im ready to admit my interpretation is wrong

and
VOTE: Enchant

^ Looking at Manatee regarding House, this feels like a more important post than 1017. There was a brief conversation with House and Manatee backs off before going onto Enchant and then retreating a bit.

It's not really clear to me that ManateeGal was townreading House in 1044 or just moved their vote to another scumread with a growing wagon.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

if enough people arent reading it the same way i am then im ready to admit my interpretation is wrong

and
VOTE: Enchant

^ Looking at Manatee regarding House, this feels like a more important post than 1017. There was a brief conversation with House and Manatee backs off before going onto Enchant and then retreating a bit.

It's not really clear to me that ManateeGal was townreading House in 1044 or just moved their vote to another scumread with a growing wagon.

Oh, I wasn't talking about it in regards to the townread. I should have been clear.

I think it's more like, there was resistance that was perhaps unexpected and so Manatee just... gives up on that avenue and comes back weaker/unsure? I don't know if that's scum regrouping or just... being unsure though, because it sucks when everyone disagrees and makes you doubt.

I think that post with the vote on Enchant can go either way (either she was starting to townread House, or just giving up on a House wagon due to loss of support). I just think it's not as valid to say "well my vote on House was back in the #300s and a lot has happened since then" when she was supporting a House wagon more recently than that. Or at least, when she stated a townread on House, it took me by surprise.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

My unsolicited opinion is- I thought it was a bit odd that out of the two people voting for you, you called out Gamma for having a limited variety of interactions lol. I'm curious to hear what your thoughts on Flea are, since the bulk of their interactions have been at or about you.

Good observation. I have experience playing with Gamma and his lack of overall nuance and meaningful interaction strike me as concerning, and (IIRC) no experience with Flea.

Flea's entire attack also seems genuine

, even if it's incorrect; and without a baseline I don't find it particularly suspicious in a vacuum. Do

you

make something out of Flea's hyperfocus on me?


-Harvey

Genuine as in fae believes in it or fae has made some valid points?

With respect to my opinion on Flea, I'm thinking the tunneling could be chalked up to playstyle. I've been biding my time on this, but I suppose at nearly 50 pages into the game, now is the time to do some cursory legwork and read some of faer past games. Before doing my metacheck, I'd say lean town - posts like 693 strike me as more of post town would make over a scumpost trying to push a miselim. But this read is not without its caveats; specifically, why has fae singled you out? The reasons she's scumreading you for doesn't seem particularly unique to you. I myself have asked a few questions that I have not bothered to follow up on in the thread, but fae seems to have zeroed in on your behavior. I suppose 912 answers some of it but not really in a way that I can grok yet.

I think your tempered reaction is more interesting. It kind of seems like you're continually trying to disengage and are content with letting fae continue this tunnel. You never seemed the type to shy away from an argument in the past, especially when it comes to arguing your own alignment. If you're townreading fae (or at least, not scumreading), why not try to get them to focus elsewhere so they don't loltunnel you all day?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Primarily I think that that post is scummy for the way that it's phrased, and the lack of corresponding evidence.

You think that townies are more likely to give explanations for their reads unprompted? That's, uh, a take I guess.

(It's not a crazy thing to think, but I would have to believe that it's mostly personality indicative.)

Let me be clear. When I say "corresponding evidence", I'm not talking about an explanation paired with the vote. I'm talking about the rest of the content in his ISO corresponding to what he's saying in that specific post.

What do you think of my vote on you? Or the worst's? Are those materially different from Gamma's vote?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I'm not saying you have to wall (in fact, please don't), but I guess I expected you to distill it down to a couple of points and nip it in the bud or something.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Although looking back, I missed that post where you asked for specific posts to respond to. I'm not sure if that changes how weird I find this entire interaction.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Flea, how would you rate your day 1 reads?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Oh neat trick, what alignment is Miss Midnight?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

What do you think of my vote on you? Or the worst's? Are those materially different from Gamma's vote?

Not much, really. Which sounds dismissive, but from what I've seen so far it seems like every vote on me is mostly just an extension of that phase from earlier where everyone was hopping on wagons mostly just to hop on them and see if it would build any sort of pressure. I'm not actually sure if anyone voting me except Thor actually scumreads me. Don't think anyone including Thor has actually given any reasons. I sort of get the motivation though. Beneath the outer layer of this mysterious, enigmatic and incredibly stylish player lies the true, sensitive heart of a poet. So it makes sense to want to try to see deeper.

Don't think the votes on me and Gamma's vote have anything to do with each other. The fact that you even ask makes me think I probably still have explained what I was trying to say there worse than I could have.

Yeah sorry, I might need an ELI5 on what kind of Harvey-related content you expected to see in Gamma's ISO. I feel like 1211 pointed out the trajectory that lead Gamma to a Harvey vote. Does that not fit the bill?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

H+H kinda feel like they've been more genuine recently

How so?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Idk

Not really feeling either the Gamma or the Enchant wagon

[Cat Scratch Fever]

What's troubling about it?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

If something need to be done, make it self.

VOTE: Penquin

I am bad with accusations, but i think he is maf. It's of course hilarious i accuse him of inactivity, but that's truth. I expect from mafia to hide in plain sight and blend in, which he doing perfectly, considering almost no one bat a eye on him (there was votes but they disappear very fast).

Not a bad vote

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Idk

Not really feeling either the Gamma or the Enchant wagon

don't feel bad for this, stock in the enchant wagon is tanking and you're in a good spot

Join me back on mm then. You really scum reading gamma here?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Not a fan of Enchant blatantly plagiarizing the worst's reasoning on MM.

I think the worst was joking there.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Oh I love the good place.

I think it's shallow but tbh I haven't seen anyone else give a reason to townread MM, shallow or not. The wagon kind of just disappeared.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

i'm so shook.

If something need to be done, make it self.

VOTE: Penquin

I am bad with accusations, but i think he is maf. It's of course hilarious i accuse him of inactivity, but that's truth. I expect from mafia to hide in plain sight and blend in, which he doing perfectly, considering almost no one bat a eye on him (there was votes but they disappear very fast).

Not a bad vote

Aside from the fact he had zero faith in it, perhaps.

I think it shows that he lacks confidence as a player, especially when his townread calls Penguin obv town. But it's like a weird thing to do as scum.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

That isn't something that I haven't elaborated on. Actually not trying to sound snarky here, but you can just read my ISO.

To bring up something new: self-serving though it may sound, I do think that his recent posts about me are genuinely just sort of bizarre in a way that resembles flailing. Again, someone correct me if there really is something I'm missing, but I think that Bee pretty much read the situation exactly in 1309 and most of the stuff Gamma has been saying has just been non-sequiturs.

I think this is a pretty good post and a more convincing reason for Scum!Gamma than any other that I've seen put forth so far.

When you moved your vote from Thor --> Gamma, I thought it was kind of implied that you were scumreading Gamma more heavily than Thor. The omission isn't scummy, and framing it as such is a pretty weird push from Gamma.

VOTE: Gamma

E-2

[Cat Scratch Fever]

This is MS - we don't put people to E-1 until 3 hours before deadline

[Cat Scratch Fever]

CSF, could you explain why you went from voting MM to Gamma? I don’t see anything obvious about what you were thinking beyond liking the read from MM (which tbh I agree with but seeing this progression is ??)?

I mean, that's kind of it.

Up until a certain point, I was seeing reasons for SR'ing gamma that weren't very convincing.

I was also spooked by how fast the wagon dissipated on MM and moved to Gamma, especially since the push on him was kind of meh, and I didn't see any good reason to townread MM for her initial burst of catch up posting.

As for why I voted Gamma- I thought Gamma was pushing MM for something deeper (specifically, starting from a conclusion and fitting evidence to a theory), but I kind of realized after 1421 that his push wasn't what I thought it was. I mean, do scum really actively avoid writing posts like 1409? I don't really think so, but that assumption did seem to play a big part in his push.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Stay safe, Titus. As a fellow west coaster, I can really empathize.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Enchant feels like someone who is trying to solve, while not making a big show of how much they're trying to solve. Like their posts are very succinct without a whole lot of dressing up. Recently his posts have been a bit confusing and making me doubt the read a bit, but I'm still not seeing scummy motivation in his posting.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

To be honest, I'm kind of getting cold feet on the Gamma wagon too. His lack of confidence in his reads feels genuine.

Spicy take:
2 or 3 scum in Peng, H+H, manatee and worst, maybe MM . Still need to reread her.

Spoiler: Faduq did I just read?

I actually had a real reason I voted House, I thought he was popping in in a way that felt suspicious
That’s just defamation.

What is it?

What is what

To be clear it looks like you’re trying to push the same misperception House seemed to have onto the rest of the thread, and I will not abide that.

VOTE: Gamma I refuse to believe you're this blind by accident.

Can you explain what you meant by "this blind"? I'm not following what about this sequence of posts led you to vote Gamma here.

Also how do you feel about voting a wagon with H+H (and the worst and MM)?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Ha, that's what you think.

Where's your head at, S_S? Do you have an opinion on either wagon?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

You're worrying me tw Why am I having such a hard time following your votes this game?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

UNVOTE:

I'm a furball of indecision rn

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Potential is a good way of spinning "no idea wtf I'm doing"

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Yeah, I feel like S_S is always like this Day 1.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

VOTE: Enchant
no matter what you meant, you definitely lied about my House push. I want to know where you were trying to go with it.

What was the lie? What makes you think Enchant was deliberately lying over genuinely misunderstanding?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Lowkey also not a fan of Miss Midnight disappearing again after the wagon shifted off of her : (

[Cat Scratch Fever]

VOTE: Flea

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Lowkey also not a fan of Miss Midnight disappearing again after the wagon shifted off of her : (

Missing one single day is "disappearing"? Christ. This just... makes me sad. I am sorry that I can't be here all the time. I'm trying to make the most of the time when I am here, and I think I do so decently. Is it still not enough?

I'm just needy, that's all.

And honestly, I hadn't realized there were 36 hour prods either, so I thought you were gone longer...

[Cat Scratch Fever]

To be honest, I'm kind of getting cold feet on the Gamma wagon too. His lack of confidence in his reads feels genuine.

Mm, still not really feeling it. His basically dropping of his read on me seems to me like wanting to get away from a subject that he looked bad on and have it be forgotten as soon as possible. From his perspective as theoretical town, I was the scum basically spearheading his miselimination. With a read like that, you either keep calling for that person's death up until your own, or if you change your mind on them you'd certainly make some point of explaining it. The the nonexplained dropping of the read into just move onto another vote, and then another shift of course onto the only viable counterwagon doesn't seem genuine to me. It reads more like he thought that he could win when it came to the competing wagon with me, that didn't pan out and then he moved onto the only other one that could work, while trying to drop everything he said about me because it didn't look good.

I think this would depend on how confident he was in his scumread. It looked like he was resigned to his own elim since he didn't really have any good scumreads.

Although I'm not sure how to interpret his 1758

[Cat Scratch Fever]

To be honest, I'm kind of getting cold feet on the Gamma wagon too. His lack of confidence in his reads feels genuine.

Mm, still not really feeling it. His basically dropping of his read on me seems to me like wanting to get away from a subject that he looked bad on and have it be forgotten as soon as possible. From his perspective as theoretical town, I was the scum basically spearheading his miselimination. With a read like that, you either keep calling for that person's death up until your own, or if you change your mind on them you'd certainly make some point of explaining it. The the nonexplained dropping of the read into just move onto another vote, and then another shift of course onto the only viable counterwagon doesn't seem genuine to me. It reads more like he thought that he could win when it came to the competing wagon with me, that didn't pan out and then he moved onto the only other one that could work, while trying to drop everything he said about me because it didn't look good.

I think this would depend on how confident he was in his scumread. It looked like he was resigned to his own elim since he didn't really have any good scumreads.

Although I'm not sure how to interpret his 1758

Elaborate on the confidence point as well as the point about being resigned? Even if I knew the bell already tolled for me, I'd be screaming at people to get whoever I thought was scum if they were the one who had gotten me killed, or drove my wagon.

If Gamma were strongly scumreading you (just as an example), I would fully expect him to do everything to avert his own elim and scream for your elim instead. But if he's not that confident in his scumread or any read, then I don't really expect him to kick and yell going down.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I think there are some players that would never go down without a fight as town, but Gamma doesn't strike me as one of those players.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

That's one way to read his hop onto ManateeGal -- when other people pointed out how much they disliked his push on you, he dropped it.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

That's one way to read his hop onto ManateeGal -- when other people pointed out how much they disliked his push on you, he dropped it.

In this case that would be starting from the conclusion and working backwards, or even circularly. I'd be saying we know he lacks confidence because he hopped on Manatee, and he wouldn't have hopped on Manatee without confidence. Where's the

prior evidence

of it, in this case?

Does there need to be prior evidence? Maybe he just lost confidence in the scumread on you, further supported by 1635 and 1648.

I'm not sure how much I want to be arguing this point with you lol, since evidently he didn't drop the scumread on you.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

That's one way to read his hop onto ManateeGal -- when other people pointed out how much they disliked his push on you, he dropped it.

In this case that would be starting from the conclusion and working backwards, or even circularly. I'd be saying we know he lacks confidence because he hopped on Manatee, and he wouldn't have hopped on Manatee without confidence. Where's the

prior evidence

of it, in this case?

Does there need to be prior evidence? Maybe he just lost confidence in the scumread on you, further supported by 1635 and 1648.

I'm not sure how much I want to be arguing this point with you lol, since evidently he didn't drop the scumread on you.

If you don't have evidence, why believe it? Let me go back to square one here. I said that some things about Gamma's posting were scummy to me. You said that you didn't think so, because if he lacked confidence then it made sense. I said that the evidence I saw pointed against that being the case, and asked you where you saw evidence of it.

Then you seemed to say the original scummy thing itself was evidence

. Does that make sense? That's my interpretation of this conversation. Like, I agree with you that my point is less of a point if he lacked confidence, but I don't

see a reason

to believe that that's the case. No reason to believe it over the infinite number of other possible reasons that any individual behavior that seems scummy could actually not be.

I don't think we're arguing. I'm just trying to see your perspective, and explain mine.

His posts on page 66 (especially the two that I linked) is when I started feeling like he was just town struggling with reads. He's not being very survivalistic there even at E-1.

I don't mind hashing this out, but I also lowkey don't really want to be defending Gamma too hard rn, since I'm not a huge fan of 1693. I kind of just want to see what he does.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

It's only evidence if it's from the evidence region of France. Otherwise, it's just a gut feeling.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I thought faer hop onto Gamma was awkward

I feel like fae would've mentioned something about voting the same person as faer top scumread for most of the day (Auro)

General dissatisfaction with the leading wagons

[Cat Scratch Fever]

It seems to me like Flea scum only makes sense if Enchant is also scum, I can't really see Flea scum Enchant town.

Why? Because Flea hasn't voted for Enchant?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

It seems to me like Flea scum only makes sense if Enchant is also scum, I can't really see Flea scum Enchant town.

Why? Because Flea hasn't voted for Enchant?

Basically? Yeah.

It wouldn't matter if both Enchant and Gamma were town, would it?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

It seems to me like Flea scum only makes sense if Enchant is also scum, I can't really see Flea scum Enchant town.

Why? Because Flea hasn't voted for Enchant?

Basically? Yeah.

It wouldn't matter if both Enchant and Gamma were town, would it?

I'm not sure I understand the question.

Suppose Enchant & Gamma were TvT wagons, both at 6 votes

Scum Flea can just vote whichever miselim wagon fae wants to go through

A hypothetical scenario in which scum flea and enchant town can coexist

But I guess you'd have to think Gamma could be town in this scenario

[Cat Scratch Fever]

ngl if enchant is town that bee post is nagl, even more so if manatee is scum

What Bee post? I don't see one that fits this bill.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I do think that Gamma could be town? Or rather, as I think I said verbatim and had a whole argument about earlier, I'm not so arrogant as to be incapable of considering worlds in which I'm wrong. Interesting that people seem to have that perception of me, though.

In that scenario, why does scum Flea refuse to vote the Enchant wagon?

As you say, fae can just vote whichever one to go through and switch between them.

Nah, not arrogant. I just wasn't sure if you were working from the assumption that Gamma is scum.

One reason would be optics - one can't be seen as willing to go with any miselim.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

uh oh Thor missed a joke

Should I be concerned?

pedit: I'm also my strongest townread so I think you're on the right track tw.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

ngl if enchant is town that bee post is nagl, even more so if manatee is scum

What Bee post? I don't see one that fits this bill.

What Bee post, Gamma? You have me sitting on the edge of my seat.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

*pops in*

Aw fuck this.

*pops out*

LMAO this is literally me.

the worst can handle this one, I'm sure.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

{Gamma, Enchant, Manatee} all seem like fine lims to me. You explained that Gamma's lack of survivalism made him seem at least meh-towny, but can you explain your dissatisfaction with the other two?

Enchant feels like someone who is trying to solve, while not making a big show of how much they're trying to solve. Like their posts are very succinct without a whole lot of dressing up. Recently his posts have been a bit confusing and making me doubt the read a bit, but I'm still not seeing scummy motivation in his posting.

Manatee is a fine wagon, but I'm pretty sure it built up after the Flea wagon.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Also, you don't need to engage people to get reads. I engage people to talk about reads, and read the thread to get reads.

When you put it like this, I think this is actually a pretty apt summary of your play. I feel like I naturally scumread this playstyle for some reason, and maybe I need to adjust how I read you.

Does it concern you that a sizeable number of people have Titus and PP in their townreads? Multiple people have thrown townreads at them, and I'm curious why you didn't choose to engage with that, for example.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

MM, what are your reads?

Spoiler:

I feel like there’s a lot people either miss in translation with you or choose not to because you seem to be clear in what you’re saying and making an effort to do so in your processes. I thought that the point about your energy levels and when you pop up and how you do to be a pretty good thought beyond just lol frozen scum but ultimately your content has like... a precision to it that I’m uninterested in voting out ATM and would rather pick your brain or have you spew it out for us. :>

+1 on this post, since it seems like you have been developing reads, but it wasn't evident to me until like... yesterday

[Cat Scratch Fever]

VOTE: ManateeGal

[Cat Scratch Fever]

MG also said she would be here all day. Where did she go?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Also, if she was accepting naked votes because "she knew her play was weak", there is no justification for her to shade Gamma's vote on her.

She's scumhunting. She can be suspicious of some votes and not others. Sure we hate naked votes but not every player needs to.

They do if they're "scumhunting".

You can't give her credit for scumhunting Gamma and a pass for NOT scumhunting naked votes when it all happened in the same post.

You're being disingenuous & bending over backwards to explain away transparently scummy behavior.

Scumhunting varies from player to player.

I'm not "bending over backwards" trying to explain that principle. You've been stubborn and bullheaded. You're picking fights because people don't think like you. First Gamma and now Manatee.

Why presume that this is how ManateeGal scumhunts as town? Is there something about her posting that you see as +town in a vacuum?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Not really, I much prefer Manatee to Bee.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Why is it odd to vote your scumread after other people express interest in also voting there? It's a good way to build wagons, no?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

i dont think flea really thinks my frozen-ness here is comparable to NQN (i think thats what fae is talking abt). not a fan of that vote cos i think those scenarios are pretty different.

For everyone else here who doesn't have context into that game, do you mind going into what you meant here? Like how the two scenarios are different.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Manatee, do you have a demotivated town game to share with us to compare

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Can you go into why the naked votes from tw and pp were "fine" from your point of view? Are they somehow less opportunistic than the ones with reasoning?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Also what are your other reads

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Ugh : (

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Enchant, who's scum? why aren't you voting?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

VOTE: Titus

I'll go digging for your questions later, Magic Flea.

What's caught your eye about Titus?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

VOTE: Enchant

This is fine ig. I'm kind of just sick of this day phase at this point.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Actually after thinking about it some more, I am surprisingly okay with a Titus wagon. Everyone who has been seriously run up today has felt townie. I feel like scum are hiding somewhere in the null-townreads.

VOTE: Titus

Also I remembered Enchant unvoting Gamma didn't seem like scum at E-2

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Boop?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

No

Yes you can, we still have about 30 hours of the countdown timer.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

*on

[Cat Scratch Fever]

VOTE: enchant

[Cat Scratch Fever]

E-1

[Cat Scratch Fever]

House, why did you lolhammer Enchant like that?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I think everyone on that Enchant wagon is likely town.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Weird for Enchant to not be voting there, but I'm inclined to not read too much into it.

VOTE: Thor

is probably my preferred starting point for today. Would also do MM.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Eh, perhaps Enchant didn't mention Manatee a lot, because Manatee was MIA for most of yesterday. Manatee helped get Enchant elimmed in the end.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Based on Thor's mechanical spec 98, 326, 664, and 858, he seemed to have good reason to scumread Enchant based off of numbers alone, but Thor never actually placed a vote on Enchant.

I feel like their mutual townreads on each other were pretty flimsy as well.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Based on Thor's mechanical spec 98, 326, 664, and 858, he seemed to have good reason to scumread Enchant based off of numbers alone, but Thor never actually placed a vote on Enchant.

I feel like their mutual townreads on each other were pretty flimsy as well.

Eh, I feel like his association with Thor is manufactured/forced.

Like he's trying to push it in our faces.

It's occurred to me that Enchant could've just been pocketing Thor, but Thor also just kind of throws a townread at Enchant and never seems to question or re-evaluate it.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

House did pick the same number as Enchant.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

With any luck, S_S will do something readable today, r-right?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

VOTE: MM

This is cool too.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Why am I scum over town that had a wrong read, Auro?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

You must be talking about that Masons and Mafia game. I can't remember what I did that game, but did I half ass a bus there? I also think there's a very glaring difference between my play this game from that one.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I think everyone on that Enchant wagon is likely town.

That paired with this post as well.

Incomplete sentence, I meant you snowed me in the past in that Masons n Mafia game with a well executed bus play.

I'm not on that Enchant wagon though. Which admittedly is Not A Good Look for me, but probably not in the way that you're arguing?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

@Auro Oh, I was talking about the VC Penguin quoted in 2398.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I'm not comparing playstyles, just that that bus play stood out to me, I figure you're pretty capable of townposting as scum though

I'm very flattered :3 But at the risk of making my scumgame painfully obvious in the future, I would say my WIM levels are nowhere the same and I kind of just lurk as scum.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Yeah but that's what I'm going off of, right? The reason you weren't present there is that you had voted Enchant and then immediately shifted to Titus.

No, the quoted VC in 2398 was way before that, before your fakehammer on Gamma.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

MM still hasn't checked in?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Enchant doesn't vote for Miss Midnight when I asked for his help twice and he never explains his townread there. He at one point says gut and at another says he thinks scum can't produce the drawing she produced...

Contrast that to his other townreads which he has plenty of explanations for and I think it may mean she's scum.

I'd vote her but I don't wanna look opportunistic and I'm scared everyone's just gonna jump on board of me any minute now so I will cower under the rug of my attic and only emerge when it is safe outside.

This looks to be true on a cursory ISO skim.

Spoiler: For my own reference more than anything

I think Thor, Bee, Heley and Helay, MM, House townie enough to pass.

Murder everyone else and we win.

VOTE: Cat

Let's try this a different way...

Why do you consider these players town?

Thor is town, because of... Why i need it explain, just look. You scumread him simple because he "doesh't play like normal town", but you forget, everyone have different town play.

Bee not townread now. Probably i am hypocrite, but she certanly doesh't care at all who is elimmed. As long as it's not her of course.

Haley and Huley still looks fairly townie for me, i started to townread her from "Vigilante" question on which she reacted townie.

MM... I quess gut. I can't explain really.

You are same, with a bit "I don't think scum gets wagoned so fast for idiotic reasons"

Fair.

Well, i was not joking about "could mafia do that". If you look at paint, you see knife in MM hands.

I think as mafia she would write flower or something cute instead.

I townread House, because i find his nature of posting a townie. He was plenty understandbly annoyed by Thor. I disliked push on him at all, because you seemed just sheeping Gamma who made up accusation like "Can't tell why but he is mafia". Like, i too have another reasons for townreading him, but can't tell them, now what?

I don't really sure what's going on. But right now it looks like Gamma is more likely town, not only because of townie reaction on "Hammer, you ded", but because i would die already like 100 times if Gamma was mafia, because it's easy to get me killed here instead of her.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

In a just-completed scumgame of Enchant's, he did give a very vague read on his scumpartner, Cephrir. In contrast, Enchant's reads on town was backed with more explanation.

I am not accurate.

If you are town, you solve it far better than me without needing of my reads. So don't follow them.


About mafia.

Tetrina

/

Cephier

and someone else, perhaps?
Tetrina could be mafia who push in hopes to get more claims, if SS is town.

Cephier

... Idk. I simple dislike him. Probably most no reliable.

Here you go.

I think Thor, Bee, Heley and Helay, MM, House townie enough to pass.

Murder everyone else and we win.

VOTE: Cat

Let's try this a different way...

Why do you consider these players town?

Thor is town, because of... Why i need it explain, just look. You scumread him simple because he "doesh't play like normal town", but you forget, everyone have different town play.

Bee not townread now. Probably i am hypocrite, but she certanly doesh't care at all who is elimmed. As long as it's not her of course.

Haley and Huley still looks fairly townie for me, i started to townread her from "Vigilante" question on which she reacted townie.

MM... I quess gut. I can't explain really.

You are same, with a bit "I don't think scum gets wagoned so fast for idiotic reasons"

[Cat Scratch Fever]

<snip>

I don't have idea who is mafia yet, but Pooky seems like town,

because of caller analysis

and he thinks like me seems. Anime (not that caller anime, Kyoko) also seems trustworthy, and

i can't really remember mafia making accuses like that

, so why not sheep. Also, don't fear any hammerers, there's none in this game. *chuckle*

Btw, because you will make ANOTHER 10 PAGES in not so long, don't expect me to read all what you post always. If something important, please point it so i will read it for sure.

I dunno, these are indeed minimalistic reads on town, but they go beyond just "gutfeels."

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Okay, if you insist.

VOTE: PenguinPower

VOTE: S_S

You're better than this

#PhonePosting

Do you think S_S is a better elim than MM or Thor today?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I feel like the Kyoko read is more fleshed out. The reason for the Kyoko read is because "mafia doesn't make accusations like this." As opposed to a read on MM that Enchant literally "can't explain."

[Cat Scratch Fever]

So close y'all. Let's hammer this home.

Why not wait for a claim?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I feel like the Kyoko read is more fleshed out. The reason for the Kyoko read is because "mafia doesn't make accusations like this." As opposed to a read on MM that Enchant literally "can't explain."

"Mafia doesn't draw pictures like this"

Oh that's true.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Darn, I got really excited there

[Cat Scratch Fever]

So close y'all. Let's hammer this home.

Why not wait for a claim?

Roles are not attached to alignment.

I agree generally, but some roles are more helpful to town than the other way around. There's definitely one thing MM could claim that would make me not want to elim her.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I'm clearly never scum with Miss Midnight if you look at how she reacted to me earlier in this game.

I have the power to kill and I'm willing to direct my shot based on what town thinks is best.

Also I'm not ready to end the day. Have we talked about this?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

lol - you think MM is going to show up to claim

Either her or her replacement should.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

So close y'all. Let's hammer this home.

Why not wait for a claim?

Roles are not attached to alignment.

I agree generally, but some roles are more helpful to town than the other way around. There's definitely one thing MM could claim that would make me not want to elim her.

She'd die tonight anyway, as the cop is ascetic.

If she's scum, she could fake claim it to draw out the cc and potentially get the real cop eliminated, or they'll kill it if she fails.

I don't see a win there.

If she claims cop, we would judge her based on her result.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

In case I get vigged -> remember that my spicy take is Penguin scum.

I don't remember you having this take at all. What is the basis for it?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Interesting, I thought you'd wait for a claim - or do you simply believe that Enchant stuff is strong enough?

I'm trying to get a claim

Why are you trying to get Bee to claim right now? I don't get it.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Vig is a strong scum role, and Thor's soft doesn't make me want to yeet him any less. Moreover, I find it suspicious that someone who's admitted to not have strong reads would pick a role like vig.

VOTE: Thor

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Why are you trying to get Bee to claim right now? I don't get it.

Because we know she's a PR, probably a strong one, and if she has info we don't want to lose it. And I suspect her.

Based on Enchant's early posts?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

24 doesn't seem very SvS

Eh, not confident on that though.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

A neighborizer isn't exactly a high priority NK.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

If someone wants to claim they shot House, then they are by all means welcome to do so

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Shooting someone is the most impactful thing you can do from those roles in my opinion. I thought there was a good chance 1-shot vig would be gone from the 3 above me, so I opted for night 3

I mean, impactful in a good way only if you hit scum.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

You mean by leashing his shot?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I just have a hard time seeing a player like Thor pick vig. If he really likes to play mechanically, then there are other PRs that would help him solve the game better.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

You mean by leashing his shot?

What if we leash the shot and it ends up on town?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Thor could just be vengeful. That would actually explain his play a lot >_>

But okay, I'd be willing to wagon elsewhere for today.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

ManateeGal you feel like you got your WIM back yet?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

This game sure has quieted down.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

VOTE: S_S

If Thor's off the table for today, this is where I prefer to go next. I'm not fond of his Bee vote, and he mysteriously dropped his push on Thor from day 2.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Hmm yeah not pushing the N3 vig on D3 really is mysterious

That doesn't really prove anything with respect to his alignment. He could just be scum trueclaiming.

I get why we want to keep him alive for today, but that role is far from self resolving.

And you dropped your push on him coming in today before he claimed N3 vig.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

All that aside... I don't see why CSF thinks those things I did are scummy. Like why would I push Thor right after killing the person who would have helped me with that the most?

But you're not pushing Thor... Sorry can you spell out for me why this makes you townie?

I feel like you haven't tried to sort Thor after he claimed vig. Leaving him alive until D4 is fine, but you should still be trying to read him right?

And why do I push the top person in the draft-- a guaranteed PR-- when nobody else has shown support there? What do these things

gain

me as scum?

I have this nugget of paranoia that you're role fishing. Given what we know, Bee could be holding most of the remaining town power.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Anything else?

He's also not given me much reason to townread him all game.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

VOTE: CSF

time to sit here.

Why?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

sorry im here!! Im a little hesitant but mostly confident w s_s right now so i'll check everyones thoughts out tonight

Does this mean you're scum reading him or townreading?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

His Bee vote is spicy. I'll give him that one.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Anything else?

He's also not given me much reason to townread him all game.

So bad vote and PoE?

And his Thor push

[Cat Scratch Fever]

VOTE: CSF

time to sit here.

Why?

[she]'s also not given me much reason to townread [her] all game.

Uh well I feel like I've definitely done more readable things than S_S. I have been trying to sort and have taken clear stances all game.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Eh okay

I think people are mostly unsure where to push right now, but I'd be lying if I didn't think the wagon on S_S built up kinda fast.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Although the fast wagon is probably just a function of "people are unsure where to push right now"

[Cat Scratch Fever]

On second thought, I'm not sure that role fishing makes sense as scum motivation for pushing bee.

Auro, why did you wait to vote SS until after Penguin voted for him?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

And are you reading my mind or what? Just because I'm not actively talking about Thor doesn't mean I'm not thinking about him...

I'm trying to. I meant lack of sorting as in I don't see you probing him or anything.

It also looked like you stopped scum reading him entirely after the claim, but maybe I misread your silence

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I guess this is the time to see if Bee lurks more as scum.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Nope, that turned out to be a dead end.

when you’re adept at faking things

You know who's behind the Thor alt? .o.

P-edit. VOTE: House

-Harvey

This might be the most interesting thing about bee on reread, which wasn’t responded to. Otherwise it’s a fairly townie iso and votes. What are you seeing, Gamma?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Thor also claimed N3 vig and a willingness to be leashed, so he's effectively off the table for today. And we're deciding both the day elim and vig shot today.

Everything else is probably best determined by forming your own opinion or from VCs.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

My name is Thor Odinson Ragnarok, and I will pick my power, in this game, or the next.

Not sure what annoys me more ..

The End of world event being used as a name, or the mech ignorance.

Ragnarök is what happens when Fenris breaks free of his chains, eats Odin, Tyr, Heimdall and I think Freya; and Jorgmandr aka the world serpent wakes up and basically turns everyone into a hashtag. Thor and Loki also specifically die.

Fun fact about Norse lore, prophecies HAD to happen. That's why Loki killed Baldr, it was fated and had to happen.

Interesting thing to waste valuable twilight time on, when the thread can be locked at any moment without warning.

MM red = Thor bullet
MM green = flea bullet

That's a thought.

flea is a bad shot if MM flips red, though. Scum might make that kill, themselves.

Flea is not a bad vig shot either.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Honestly todays VCs are probably the most telling in terms of alignment I reckon.

I sometimes feel like we're reading different games.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Disagree with both of those, Alchemist

Do you mean you disagree with Flea's scumreads on me and S_S? That's kinda interesting; I've been pushing you like all day - you don't find that scummy?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

UNVOTE:

I have no clue what Manatee was voting Auro for and I don't get why they were parked.

What's your read on Auro?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

That's the only thing that could make sense given the context imo.

That or he posted in the wrong thread lol.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Flea unvoting S_S doesn't feel super S/T (although for later reference, I think it did come after PP's unvote), but also if S/S, why vote there at all? I waffle on Flea
a lot, but I feel like Flea's actions don't make that much sense as town.

I should probably think about Auro teams, but that'll have to come later tonight.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Flea unvoting S_S doesn't feel super S/T (although for later reference, I think it did come after PP's unvote), but also if S/S, why vote there at all? I waffle on Flea
a lot, but I feel like Flea's actions don't make that much sense as

scum

.

I should probably think about Auro teams, but that'll have to come later tonight.

FTFMe

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I think associatives can be rabbit holes, sure, but it’s the easiest way for me to contextualize behavior as AI when I tend towards more emotional play / understanding (which I am trying to fix on this alt). Like it makes me look at things in a motivation way that’s usually harder for me.

Still confident on Thor town? I noticed he wasn't in any of your proposed team solves.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Who was it that said Titus never bussed?

Auro/Titus doesn't feel like a thing.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

What do you mean by ineffectual busser?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Okay I've read it your combined ISOs from Situation Room and get the gist. I'm not sure if that makes sense here because Titus had her eye on Auro in day 1 iirc. And I think Titus started the Enchant wagon? Not sure if she's the type of hardpush her own partner.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Idk if trying to do associations is getting me anywhere.

This game needs something to happen with ~2 days left, and although I don't feel confident in Auro scum, when I try to towncase him, I'm not able to convince myself he's town either. That + not voting Enchant + PP/Titus voting there is probably good enough absence of anything stronger.

I think we should do Auro/S_S today.

Bonus - I don't think there's any reason those two can't be scum together?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I don't cc but you targeted SS N1?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

There should be a "why" in my last post.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Bonus - I don't think there's any reason those two can't be scum together?

This aged well

I've been struggling this game lol.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Please don't put Auro at E-1 until we decide the vig shot.

ManateeGal was voting for Auro so I dunno. I suppose a bus isn't out of the question here given how much scrutiny Auro's been under, but eh.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I think going Flea/Thor just wins the game.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I think going Flea/Thor just wins the game.

And I know you are wrong.

But indulge me. Why?

And you would know this how? Are you claiming to have an inno on Thor?

---

Thor is a bit scummy even though he was pushing Auro yesterday, because I didn't see him try to find the other scum.

I'll be able to review previous days tomorrow, but with the cop checks, we should be pretty close to just winning?