open 841: concgratulations to the winners and losers

[northsidegal]

i was wondering why the name "faker" sounded familiar to me

anyways how do you like them apples SS, looks like picking nine every game finally didn't pay off. i considered also picking nine just for a laugh honestly

VOTE: mare

[northsidegal]

lime doctor. can you believe that? what are they gonna think of next

[northsidegal]

whyy are there 26 pages

[northsidegal]

oh god, i'm so old. why do i constantly do this to myself, where i sign up for a game and then immediately remember that i should just stick to modding. i guess this is about where i'm at though:

{nsg}
{andante, IV, catboi, mare}
{SS, skitter, cakez, SA, flow, pooky, faker} - null
{datisi, midway}

i don't think that i have any particular skill or insight at reading datisi but i don't agree with the thoughts that he's been "chill" this game and that that's alignment indicative somehow. i thought that his initial response to IV's scumread on him seemed sort of forced or performative (and i think that some other people pointed out the same thing or something similar). my thoughts on midway largely mirror what others have already pointed out, his opening is just sort of classically scummy. catboi seemed to indicate that his posting like that is town indicative as based on Chromatic Ascension so that's something to look up but for now that's where he is.

[northsidegal]

oh yeah, i wanted to say this

why do you guys purposely always pick the same numbers

Well I started out just picking it because it was rarely picked but at this point it also deters anyone who's aware of it. This is the first time I've collided and it seems like flow also picked it because it was rarely picked, so that still seems pretty solid.

next time this setup is run and you're playing, whether i join on a secret alt or on my main account i'm pre-committing right now to picking nine. what now? :>

(is this against the rules to say? if it is then i'm just joking)

[northsidegal]

{nsg}
{andante, IV, catboi, mare}
{SS, skitter, cakez, SA, flow, pooky, faker} - null
{datisi, midway}

i guess i'll just talk more about this

maybe i should have split this into a billion more tiers or whatever but this is broadly accurate and probably good enough to get a decent understanding of where i'm at. i do think that faker is probably on the upper side of null if not an outright townlean because it seems like there's some weird personal beef going on there between him and mare (who also seems to be an alt whose identity i feel like i should remember but i don't), and i guess i just expect that scum would probably try to focus more on other things. or, if not outright focus on other things, at least make more time for making false reads and general schmoozing and whatever, which it seems like faker isn't doing.

still don't know how to read SS. i find people who seem to not take anything seriously (or who take very little seriously for a majority of the game) difficult if not impossible to read so flow trap is ???? and probably will stay that way. in his short time in the thread cakez agreed with a lot of the same thoughts that i had reading the thread, although i'm not sure whether or not to really take that as towny.

[northsidegal]

is it weird that i actually think nsg is townie for this post? like, if she entered the game townreading me, i'd be concerned. and this feels like something i'd expect from her, at least going from the vibes i got from her playing in my games.

pedit: referring to 661.

why would that be weird?

[northsidegal]

i found it difficult to believe (or i suppose just surprising) that skitter didn't know about SS's always pick nine thing (as she seemed to indicate in one post) but i couldn't find any evidence to the contrary in the very short amount of time i spent looking for it. i'm also curious to hear about skitter's experience with scum!andante which i recall she indicated she had – what was that game like, and what's your impression of how scum andante plays / differs from town andante?

not sure if flow was being serious in 322 but i think that almost everything he listed for why IV was town was a personality tell rather than an alignment tell. i don't really know how relevant it is, i just found it notable.

and finally, to round off the list of random observations that i'm going through, i thought that datisi's 310 was mildly scum indicative for reasons that i would probably find difficult to make sound convincing, and i agreed with catboi's post here (which may be equally as relevant with regards to skitter as it is for datisi?):

This is pretty meh for a vibe read, mostly because Datisi's posting aggressively left very little impression on me so far

I mean ok? That's the vibe i got, it's still early game and that's what i have thus far

Okay but my immediate thought was "is skitter TMIing Datisi town here lmao"

No, and do you have an issue with the andante read as well?

Not in a similar sense - Datisi read felt notable because most of his posting had left aggressively no impression such that the conclusion he was "chill" did not really track at all with my own impression of him. Andante read is more whatever in that I

could

see someone reaching that conclusion, as several other people have. (I'm treading more cautiously and don't think "vibes" or whatever are the best way to read her but think Datisi had a decent point)

[northsidegal]

the question was partly formed that way to invite discussion. partly because i kind of expect some smartass to go "so you agree you're scummy? so you're scum?" and i wanted to shut that down pre-emptively, but i didn't know a good way to do that without writing the whole thing out so i decided to just start with "is it weird" and call it a day.

oh, basically saying that you townread a post which is calling you scummy even if not necessarily agreeing that you are scummy. sure, i get that.

on the subject, what's your impression of how you've played this game? do you think you've played towny, scummy, neutral / you've been playing resembling your typical towngame / scumgame?

not sure if flow was being serious in 322 but i think that almost everything he listed for why IV was town was a personality tell rather than an alignment tell. i don't really know how relevant it is, i just found it notable.

At least I tried :<

i'm not criticizing you, just disagreeing with your reasoning.

[northsidegal]

on the subject, what's your impression of how you've played this game? do you think you've played towny, scummy, neutral / you've been playing resembling your typical towngame / scumgame?

i think i've been playing scummy, but my play so far here doesn't really resemble either of my typical towngames or scumgames.

generally, what makes me townie and what mostly makes my towngames is gut reads, in-moment thoughts, and feeling mostly relaxed and natural (and townbloc building, but that's follows after reads, obviously). now, the gut reads and thoughts aren't present because this game feels like mud currently and i've gotten very little from it so far. and, i'm aware i'm sounding a bit off tonally, mostly around iv, because this is like the 4th game in recent times where we start off with "r u scum though" and it's gotten repetitive.

the reason why i say this doesn't resemble either of my games is because i'm not that terrible at... faking my towngame, especially early. if i had to, i think i would be able to make up some "reads" that i'm not naturally getting right now.

the impression i've gotten from seeing you play in my games is that you would look for things like Actual Game Related Thoughts in my play, and considering i've given the bare minimum so far... your read makes sense.

it's not really just game related thoughts. that's mostly a personality / playstyle thing, i think. i think that, correctly or incorrectly, i read you similar to how i used to read skygazer (do you know who that is??). when skygazer was scum, even when she would force herself to give reads and interact, it still seemed sort of forced, and like she wasn't really interested in it and was just doing it to get posts out there.

you don't have to have reads yet – aside from the thoughts that i sort of forced myself to get out there, i really don't have all that many. if you are town, i would say just take your time. i personally think it's the best way to get reads and i think it would help you be readable.

[northsidegal]

what about that interaction seems like scum theater?

[northsidegal]

She's from EM so the quick realtime responses are extremely null for her and not a good metric to read her on. Better to read her on whether the cases she pushes are pure bullshit or not.

Oh i didnt know that. Well it worked to townread her last time so maybe this isnt aa strong a reason as i thought but i think she's still town

without even necessarily disagreeing with the townread, if you don't know what someone is capable of as scum, aren't you worried that they might be more skillful than you anticipated? andante has quite a lot of games completed from a quick look that i took and so she's not exactly a newbie either

[northsidegal]

what about that interaction seems like scum theater?

You enter the thread with some light scumreads on me and Datisi. Datisi said your scumread on him made sense and then you guys bounced back and forth

and it looks like you don't scumread him that much anymore

.

if that's the impression that i've given off then i suppose that's my bad – nothing about my read on datisi has changed.

i mean sure but i didn't know what her scumgame looked like last time either, and i correctly townread her there, and now she looks the same

so she can totally wow me for sure but right now when i have like 3.5 reads i'm kinda ok townbinning her for now and revisiting later

mm, i'm not sure that this logic really follows. say, for instance, that i townread someone in another game because they capitalize the first letter of their sentences and i think that this makes them town, and they do in fact turn out to be town. the fact that they turned out to be town that game is really only weak evidence that my tell was correct (and of course this was a deliberately contrived example of a silly tell for the purposes of illustrating a point). of course, it's possible to notice a pattern among town games which is broken and then take that to be evidence of someone being scum (e.g. someone hyperposts and is town in every game you see them in and then is suddenly not interested), but even still i suppose the point that i'm trying to get across is that you still need some kind of relevant body of work for reference and it just seems strange to me that you take one game as sufficient for that.

[northsidegal]

This is another post that I'm like, "This sounds odd"
northside goes: "How do you think you've played this game" - ok, whatever, nothing odd there
dats answers
northside goes: "you don't have to have reads yet"
like, northside's answer to dats talking about how he's been playing, it's just weird... I'm not even sure I understand what northside is saying, so like idk if I tr/sr this, this entire page has a lot of odd stuff so I really want to look at it, but this post? I don't even know what to call it

Take a look at this quote:

the impression i've gotten from seeing you play in my games is that you would look for things like Actual Game Related Thoughts in my play, and considering i've given the bare minimum so far... your read makes sense.

Datisi seemed to indicate here that he believes my scumread on him was because of him not having very many game related thoughts (or reads) so far. This isn't really the primary reason behind my read.

Me saying "you don't need to have reads yet" meant a few different things. The first was trying to illustrate that that wasn't the primary reason behind my read (as I began arguing in the first line of my post there). My scumread isn't about "needing to have reads at this point", or anything like that, and that's sort of what I was trying to say. The second was sort of just a genuine point, in the case that Datisi is town. I don't think that any townie should force themselves to have reads – in my experience, the best reads are formed by sitting back and just seeing what you can find rather than actively trying to force things. Of course, some people might call this too passive or say that it lets yourself get drowned out, but it's just my genuine philosophy.

Saying "you don't need to have reads yet" isn't some roundabout way of townreading Datisi, because it was never a reason for my scumread in the first place.

[northsidegal]

She's from EM so the quick realtime responses are extremely null for her and not a good metric to read her on. Better to read her on whether the cases she pushes are pure bullshit or not.

Oh i didnt know that. Well it worked to townread her last time so maybe this isnt aa strong a reason as i thought but i think she's still town

without even necessarily disagreeing with the townread, if you don't know what someone is capable of as scum, aren't you worried that they might be more skillful than you anticipated? andante has quite a lot of games completed from a quick look that i took and so she's not exactly a newbie either

Ummm I think my town games speak for themselves lol uhhh the games here... most games are things I've replaced into, but why iseveryone so concerned about scum!Andante?? I literally die tonight scum knows I'm a pr lol plus I've actually been doing stuff, so we're not entertaining this andante!scum idea

I think that this sort of reaction is a little extreme, or at least is uncalled for given how "soft" my posts on the subject so far have been.

The literal very first words in my post that you quote there is "without even necessarily disagreeing with the townread". In other words, the questions that I'm asking skitter there are really more a probing of skitter herself rather than any sort of conversation specifically regarding you – if even

that small of a level

of tangentially questioning your alignment makes you uncomfortable, I'm not really sure what to say.

[northsidegal]

Unless you have some sort of solid "Andante in this game as scum did exactly this" I do not want to hear 1 more time... "you can't TR andante if you don't know her scum game"

This logic doesn't follow, but this is largely a philosophical dispute and not really super game relevant at this point so I'm just gonna leave it there.

Personally, I think my scum games are pretty good, I'm proud of them, however, just cause I'm not terrible scum, it doesn't mean we need to start tossing around "Well she's from EM" "look up meta!!" seriously. I am here to solve the game. and that is what I'd like to do. I'm not solving my alignment. If you want to dig through my games, have at it. Make sure it's actually over though.

But I do not want to hear 1 more post about how someone else isn't allowed to TR me cause they haven't read one of my scum games... page 28 was angering me.

To be clear, I'm not saying nor have I ever said that someone can't townread you if they are unfamiliar with how you play as scum. What I

was

saying to skitter specifically was that I found it slightly surprising that she would have the opinion that she did, given the level of information that she had.

[northsidegal]

i mean, ok, let's take a step back

the last time i played with her was the first time i played with her, and i thought she had exhibited townie behaviors, so i townread her (and was right)

she's playing in a very similar fashion here, and last time townreading her for those reasons worked, so why i do need to take into account her scumgame?

so i'm just gonna more or less paraphrase some stuff that i've already said and then again just leave it there.

personally, if i have little to no information as to someone's behavior as scum, i think that it is prudent not to underestimate what they may be capable of. (phrased another way: you likely won't hurt yourself too much by

overestimating

what someone unfamiliar is capable of)

i also think that townreading someone in a single previous game for whatever reason (and having that person turn out to be town) is weak evidence to believe that whatever tell you were using was actually a towntell. imagine i said i townread someone for capitalizing the start of their sentences in a previous game and they turned out to be town, and then in this game they capitalize the start of their sentences again. i think that these are comparable situations, but it's just more immediately apparent that sentence capitalization is a personality trait rather than actually alignment indicative. (also, it is intentional that i say "weak evidence" rather than "not evidence")

that's all.

[northsidegal]

Too tired for this right now.

Should clarify me/Mare definitely do not have beef, other than the fact that she's a stupid fucking horse girl

"beef" may have been the wrong word, there's just obviously some sort of thing or some kind of history there which was what i was referring to.

[northsidegal]

Actually I kinda want to go back and look at the numbers selected by scum in the 5th position because that feels like not a coincidence.

that seems like it could be the position of "pick a high number to avoid the single digit collisions but still end up near the top". i imagine the prototypical scumteam draft is either all three low or two low one hedge like that, so post-hoc i can see how it makes sense

[northsidegal]

i realize that this is like a weird cryptic comment, but andante if you are town this game then i look forward to playing with you as scum - i believe there's a tell that might work on you, and it's one of my favorite tells to use.

[northsidegal]

UNVOTE:

[northsidegal]

UNVOTE:

Thoughts on mare?

seems town

[northsidegal]

i'm on my phone so can't really give a super elegant case or whatever, but basically her whole convo with you and then vote on you that interaction seemed town on her end

let me get some quotes

[northsidegal]

I mean like all of this makes sense to me, or at least I understand her

Spoiler:

Okay, my counterpoint:

I viscerally felt that SirCakez was scum from the moment he began posting in a previous game. I cop checked him N1 and he was elimmed the next day.

Why should I ignore it when I get the same exact feeling from his posts here? Should I not immediately press on something familiar when I am familiar with it as scum?

And, let me say, once more.

I really don't give a fuck if he's catching up. People do it. I dislike it. Whatever.

I dislike what he's saying.

Okay, my counterpoint:

I viscerally felt that SirCakez was scum from the moment he began posting in a previous game. I cop checked him N1 and he was elimmed the next day.

Why should I ignore it when I get the same exact feeling from his posts here? Should I not immediately press on something familiar when I am familiar with it as scum?

i mean your visceral feeling is: a) not something you brought up as part of any of this earlier in this convo b) not something that i feel/vibe/have any opinion on
so it's just like ok?

and my response is basically, again, you're scumreading him for something that's nai, and i'm a little surprised that you're not seeing why i think it's nai

I don't believe the things he's saying are NAI. To say you dislike/like something, to invoke tone, means you are providing your opinions on someone. And that's AI.

To say "I dislike this, I find it weird," to place a vote because of that? How is that NAI?

Like you want to be ? but you're sitting here saying that he hasn't done anything AI which is patently false soooo.

Honestly it almost seems like a like funhouse mirror version of the conversation we were having. You're arguing that some feeling she has is nai and she's saying it isn't, sort of like what I was saying to you.

Also it's just weird to me to see you say "you're scumreading him for something nai" when she explicitly says she's talking about a feeling and not just like catching up or whatever

[northsidegal]

Also given new information about who mare is this doesn't seem to resemble what I know of her scumplay

[northsidegal]

back and catching up sorry, anyone want to get my super hot takes on things as i'm reading up

[northsidegal]

Current POE is like: Andante 3 times Midway, SS, Pooky, Mare, Cat, Skitter; Maybe Sleepless

surprised to not see myself in this - are you townreading me?

[northsidegal]

having done a bit of meta diving my townread on andante has been strengthened and i now actually think that flow trap is probably town (despite having leaned towards him being scum after reading through the thread but before doing the meta dive).

i used to be of the opinion (and i suppose that i still am) that you should sort of keep some meta tells close to the chest so that you can re-use them later or people don't adapt to them, but i don't think that i play enough for this to still be relevant for me. plus, i probably need something to actually talk about anyways rather than just giving some boring reads and then dipping out.

one thing that stood out to me a lot was andante's very strong reaction not even to being voted, but to even the insinuation that she might not be town.

Spoiler:

Ummm I think my town games speak for themselves lol uhhh the games here... most games are things I've replaced into, but why iseveryone so concerned about scum!Andante?? I literally die tonight scum knows I'm a pr lol plus I've actually been doing stuff,

so we're not entertaining this andante!scum idea

I think that this sort of reaction is a little extreme, or at least is uncalled for given how "soft" my posts on the subject so far have been.

The literal very first words in my post that you quote there is "without even necessarily disagreeing with the townread". In other words, the questions that I'm asking skitter there are really more a probing of skitter herself rather than any sort of conversation specifically regarding you – if even

that small of a level

of tangentially questioning your alignment makes you uncomfortable, I'm not really sure what to say.

Ok, now I'm addressing that "you can't read andante the way you are" crap...
Unless you have some sort of solid "Andante in this game as scum did exactly this" I do not want to hear 1 more time... "you can't TR andante if you don't know her scum game"

Personally, I think my scum games are pretty good, I'm proud of them, however, just cause I'm not terrible scum, it doesn't mean we need to start tossing around "Well she's from EM" "look up meta!!" seriously. I am here to solve the game. and that is what I'd like to do. I'm not solving my alignment. If you want to dig through my games, have at it. Make sure it's actually over though.

But I do not want to hear 1 more post about how someone else isn't allowed to TR me cause they haven't read one of my scum games...

page 28 was angering me

.

like i said in that post, i felt like this was a surprising or extreme reaction in proportion to the posts that i had made, but i didn't immediately know how to interpret it: as some kind of scum sensitivity to her position as a consensus townread being questioned, or as a genuine example of this one meta trait that would indicate that she's town. having done a little bit of meta review, i think that it's more likely to be the latter. the "meta trait" is this (datisi might actually remember this one, i just now realized that i brought this up in that white flag game that i played horribly in) – certain people may tend not to get eliminated as town very often. often, the type of people who tend not to get eliminated as town are the ones who really dig their heels in and fight

a lot

when that becomes a possibility for them as town. sometimes you can tell that these kinds of players are scum because, when being pushed for elimination, they don't fight as hard as they typically do as town – i first learned about this tell when nachomamma used it in a bombshell case on myself actually, because i was getting pushed but didn't really seem to have a lot of heart in fighting it.

based on what i saw of andante's other games, my estimation is that the reaction that she had in this game to what i was saying is more likely to be an example of that sort of strong desire to not be eliminated as town than it is some kind of scum reaction. i guess i'm sort of wasting my breath here anyways because nobody really seems to disagree that she's town?? i don't know, i just actually like this tell a lot, it's fun to talk about and i'm now the mafia equivalent of an old person who just wants to tell people stories from their past so just let me have this

[northsidegal]

as for flow trap i'll try to be a bit less wordy and just get to the point (and also i guess keep the amount i say proportional to my degree of confidence?), it seems like he has more fun as town and is more serious as scum and this game seems to match the former rather than the latter.

[northsidegal]

i agree with the logic that SS as scum would be trying more to look towny and it matches my memory of playing against (and losing against) him as scum, but at the same time it feels bad to actually put someone down as town based on that reasoning. so i guess i can just continue putting the problem of reading him off

[northsidegal]

i guess i'm somewhere around here

{nsg}
{andante, flow}
{IV, mare, SS}
{skitter, cakez, SA, pooky, faker, datisi} - null
{midway}

i predict that i will probably scumread sleepless assassin after he makes his big post. really don't know how to feel about datisi – i see all of the things that people are prodding him over and i see his responses and and i understand his responses completely and despite maybe seeming unlikely on the surface i feel like i relate to how all of them could be genuine... but i don't know if that makes him town or just means that the things people are pushing him for aren't actually scummy. in other words, i don't really read his posts as towny, but none of the reasons people seem to be giving or talking about for him being scum really resonate with me.

midway still seems scummy but i'm unsatisfied voting there with such a large null pool to sort.

[northsidegal]

gosh, all i want to do in mafia games is bring up and talk about older mafia games. maybe that means i should play more so i have games that aren't all like two or three years old to be referencing.

[northsidegal]

{nsg}
{andante, flow}
{IV, mare, SS}
{skitter, cakez, SA, pooky, faker, datisi, cat} - null
{midway}

oh yeah, cat was missing from this, should be in null. sorry!!! we're just really indecisive tonight, i looked back and apart from agreeing with a few of his posts don't think i really have any good reasons to townread him

[northsidegal]

Northsidegal is also completely wrong on why Andante is town imo but I don't think it matters too much. She's town anyway at the end of the day.

I wound up hardshoving her in Happy Face after she had a mental breakdown in response to my vote on her

maybe, sure. i don't think that the interaction that you link really qualifies as "mental breakdown" but alright. maybe i've got it literally completely backwards!!!

i agree with the logic that SS as scum would be trying more to look towny and it matches my memory of playing against (and losing against) him as scum, but at the same time it feels bad to actually put someone down as town based on that reasoning. so i guess i can just continue putting the problem of reading him off

why is he listed as a tr for you then?

i predict that i will probably scumread sleepless assassin after he makes his big post

why do you feel that way?

midway still seems scummy but i'm unsatisfied voting there with such a large null pool to sort.

do you normally not vote for people until you have a read on almost everyone? i don't understand why you wouldn't at least park your vote on your current largest suspect

1) it's not actually super important where he goes. i put him above null though because even if the reasoning feels bad i still think that it makes sense
2) pattern matching to a previous game i played with sleepless, also a prediction just based on not really liking the posts he's already made and extrapolating that given more content from him it won't reverse that read.
3) shrug. it's been said about me before that i don't vote someone before i'm absolutely ready for their immediate death, whether or not that's true i couldn't say. i just don't really feel like my vote would contribute anything (especially no "pressure" or anything), so i just don't really feel like parking it somewhere.

[northsidegal]

sometimes you can tell that these kinds of players are scum because, when being pushed for elimination, they don't fight as hard as they typically do as town – i first learned about this tell when nachomamma used it in a bombshell case on myself actually, because i was getting pushed but didn't really seem to have a lot of heart in fighting it.

you're insinuating that you're one of these players who is very town as town and will fight back against shade more often as town - how do you feel about basically everyone having you in their PoE here?

so let me be clear – the idea is specifically about when being pushed and being a serious contender for elimination. i don't think that i really qualify as that right now? nobody seems to actively scumread me, as far as i remember i don't have any votes on me, it's just people don't townread me yet, which i mostly understand. perhaps i didn't elaborate enough, but they're not really the same situation.

[northsidegal]

i predict that i will probably scumread sleepless assassin after he makes his big post

This feels like a weird thing to say. It's like you're gonna go into reading my post trying to find things wrong with it and the post hasn't even been made yet.

not really, unless you're talking about some kind of inherent bias to going into something with a specific expectation potentially tainting your view of that thing, which i think in general i'm pretty decent about avoiding.

i don't really have anything else to say to this except "that's not what i'm going to be doing" and "that isn't what i meant to imply with what i said", although i did sort of predict that someone might take that conclusion from what i said when i made that post.

I strongly believe you should pull up the checklist of behaviors you described and directly compare rather than get hung up on my wording. For example, it might help to know that I misremembered and didn't even actually vote her, but merely suggested her as a third choice.

Fundamentally this is a process debate and nothing very relevant to this game and I am willing to skip the pedantry if it is not of interest.

sure, and sorry i may not have been clear. i did basically understand the point that you were making and see the evidence that you were pointing to, it may have been a bit flippant of me to say what i said.

i don't really think that this is just a process debate. whether or not you think that andante is town regardless i would like to not be making right decisions for the wrong reasons – in other words, i'd like to be correct about my statements and the evidence that i use to justify those statements. so i take your disagreeing here pretty seriously, especially when it seems like or is said that i am "completely wrong".

[northsidegal]

North what did you mean then if I'm just reading it wrong

i meant exactly what i said. i predict, or perhaps it's better to say i get the feeling that after seeing your large post i will probably scumread you for it. that doesn't mean that i want to scumread you or that i'm going to be reading that post with the intention to scumread you or trying to find things wrong with it – it's possible that my prediction will be wrong.

i don't know, it was a weird thing to say and i guess i should have just probably kept the feeling to myself. but what i meant is pretty much exactly what i said.

[northsidegal]

happy new year!

[northsidegal]

Well northsidegal, with 1682 it looks like you won this round!

eh i mean i don't think so, if she were scum of course she would say "oh my gosh your meta case that says i'm town is exactly how i play when i'm town!!!" but it's whatever

[northsidegal]

oh and also even if town people don't always have an objective view of their own play basically what i'm trying to say is that we tied this round but i still lost most of my chips, sunk skitter's battleship and drew a victory point development card (and other such humorous game analogies)

[northsidegal]

been traveling v/la until tomorrow sorry

[northsidegal]

or is that vla? is that just prod dodging? whatever anyways yeah sorry

[northsidegal]

VOTE: sleepless

okay so we're coming in hot. as it turns out my prediction on sleepless's post was both wrong and right in a roundabout way. let me just start talking – the post was sort of a lot of nothing i feel. i don't think there was really a ton of towny analysis or anything there. it didn't read

tonally

as super forced but i do think that content-wise it could resemble someone forcing themselves to just have a lot to talk about to look good, which would also fit sleepless' behavior of sort of talking up the post beforehand rather than just doing it. for me personally (and also from what i've seen other people do this as well), when i'm working on getting through some giant catch-up, i still might refresh around the most recent page and at least try some engagement there. to be clear, sleepless

does

do this, but i feel that it's again more mostly insubstantial stuff when he does it: 1518 is basically bare reads and nothing else which isn't itself terrible, but 1527, 1548, and his interaction with skitter starting at 1593 are all just sort of nothing at all. in this case, i take absence of evidence (that is, the absence of an attempt to engage meaningfully with the thread on its most recent page) as a small amount of evidence of absence of the

desire

to do so.

of course, i feel for sleepless in seemingly being busy and having to catch up with the thread frequently, but even still. also, even though i think this behavior on its own is somewhat of a decent enough reason to vote someone, this matches what i recall of and the brief amount i reviewed of my last experience with sleepless as scum, where i explicitly called out the fact that he made a large catch-up post which seemed forced (granted, this was a while ago). whether or not that experience is unduly influencing my opinion here remains to be seen i suppose.

anyways, speaking of engaging with the thread currently while trying to catch up, i still have a decent amount of pages to catch up on, so it's possible that my vote changes from here, but i doubt it. i see that flow is being wagoned and i think i would prefer sleepless over him so yeah.

[northsidegal]

i think that lack of urgency on being wagoned is either a scumtell or a towntell depending on the personality of the player, like i was talking about when talking about andante. for people who tend not to get elimed as town very often, i might probably a scumtell – but do you have any sort of broader knowledge about midway to say which might be more likely?

also, curious about the sleepless townread there

[northsidegal]

- i just (as in two weeks ago just) played a game with him (i.e. see ss's pyp from like two weeks ago), wherein he was significantly easier to read, had real time interactions, popped in occasionally with thoughts, had follow-through between his posts, had significant scumreads, etc, while also being behind and having the same work schedule, so i don't think he should be given a pass here for that at all

yeah funnily enough this matches exactly what

i

said in the previous game i played with sleepless as scum, referencing another game where he was town

skitter was also in that game as well! time really is a flat circle

[northsidegal]

hm looking at that italicized "I" in my previous post it tonally sounds like i'm being haughty like "oh,

I

also knew he was scum!!!" but that wasn't really the intention

[northsidegal]

iv answer 2179 please

[northsidegal]

nsg idk im not really vibing with this ig? i feel like this basically boils down to you not liking that he wrote a big wall that was devoid of obvtown content

which is like maybe like super mildly scum!indicative

then there's the other aside about how you quoted some things that were not super substantial, which for me makes me go, okay? like half the plist me and flow included have a higher noise to content ratio than sleepless so im not really sure how this makes him scum

also i talk about sleepless on the bottom on the previous page if ur interested since u asked. im not sold on him being town at all to be clear.

mmm, I think that it's an exaggeration to say that it's just "devoid of obvtown content", I think that it's devoid of pretty much anything town indicative. Now that I've read a bit more into the thread, so is 1856 – another pretty big response from sleepless that is basically just some (no offense) pretty surface level commentary and some pretty softball questions.

It's not really about just "noise" or anything like that – the fact that I have the reads I do on flow and SA should make that pretty clear, I think. My point was

specifically

this – he spent the time he did have in the thread mostly doing nothing, and seemingly not even really attempting to have meaningful real time interactions. Either that or talking about the post he was going to make. I think that this is somewhat indicative of the pattern of thinking of someone who cares more about the looks of having a giant "content filled" post than someone who actually cares about interacting with the thread in a meaningful way. I also think that this behavior is similar to his observed behavior as scum before, and skitter seems to also agree that (even if the conditions may differ) his behavior is

not

similar to recent behavior as town.

Also, would appreciate you talking about my question on midway in 2197

[northsidegal]

oh post p-edit or whatever sorry you already answered about midway. imagine reading p-edits instead of clicking through them to make your post as fast as possible, could not me be.

[northsidegal]

scumslips never ever ever happen unless someone literally quotes from the scum PT and

even then

if it's just a link to a private thread maybe they were quoting from a notes PT or something accidentally. despite saying this to people i still every so often get the unshakeable feeling that some post was a scumslip but it just never turns out well, you should just always discard the possibility unless it's

actually

like completely 100% undoubtable.

[northsidegal]

link?

[northsidegal]

also to pre-emptively add more nuance before even seeing it, my point was that the ratio of actual scumslips to things that people perceive as scumslips is so tilted in favor of things that aren't actually scumslips that on a purely probabalistic level you should almost always just remind yourself of how infrequent they are and like firmly cement in your mind the fact that they almost never happen whenever you notice something you think may be one.

[northsidegal]

Should note that I think the probability distribution I'm getting at is more specific than NSG's, reading hers that context might be confusing.

i'm a little confused myself, i think – what do you mean?

[northsidegal]

i guess i don't really consider those "scumslips" in my understanding of the word, moreso just game-throwing blunders? i guess i might be splitting hairs, though.

[northsidegal]

Kind of very exhausted what is happening?

VOTE SLEEPLESS GOGOGOGO FAST

[northsidegal]

MARE QUICK GO VOTE HIM

[northsidegal]

OH MY GOD MARE TYPE FASTER AAAAAA

[northsidegal]

[northsidegal]

for an actual summary we have realized that we have about a day and a half left on the deadline and no major wagons so the coalescing is beginning. it seems like the main three wagon contenders (at least to my eye, still have a bit to catch up on) are sleepless, flow, and midway.

[northsidegal]

Should note that I think the probability distribution I'm getting at is more specific than NSG's, reading hers that context might be confusing.

i'm a little confused myself, i think – what do you mean?

I was referring specifically to alignment-reversed tells like typing "If I were town" instead of "I wish I were scum". Town definitely make the same mistakes, but if it were 50/50 that's >rand and would be valid. You seem to be talking about scumslips as a very broad concept ranging from obvious mechanical TMI ("If [Partner] uses Slip and Slide" where the partner never said the power's name was Slip and Slide) to small slips like midway's.

I don't think that's worth exploring or hashing out here.

gotcha. for the record, i actually did used to (and maybe still might?) like freudian slip that i was scum when i was scum similar to your first example, at least personally. but yeah probably the conversation has passed, not worth talking over a ton.

where's your head at in regards to the end of day coalescing here? sorry if you've already explained, i'm still a few pages to go.

[northsidegal]

NO MARE TYPE "VOTE: SLEEPLESS" YOU HAVE TO DO IT FAST QUICK

[northsidegal]

faker can you unvote flow and vote sleepless for me as a favor

[northsidegal]

nsg why are you hyped up trying to get mare and faker to lolwagon sleepless?

the posts to mare was just a personal random burst of energy, mostly in jest but still conveying my serious opinion. the request to faker is a specific one intended to direct "momentum" away from someone i don't want eliminated today. given that faker has indicated a willingness to vote either person and i'd prefer sleepless over flow, i think that passively having more people on sleepless increases the overall chance that he's the elim today. (again, the "momentum")

all of that is sort of just a roundabout way of restating that i scumread one person and think that one person is pretty moderately more likely town than not. (?)

also, i'm fully caught up and yeah i think said everything i wanted to say.

{nsg}
{andante, flow, mare}
{IV, skitter, SS, datisi}
{cakez, pooky, faker, cat} - null
{midway}
{sleepless}

[northsidegal]

faker can you unvote flow and vote sleepless for me as a favor

I don't see why I owe you a favor, nor should believe that I am likely to have it reciprocated in the long run.

ouch! but joking aside, this seems like a strange response when you seemed to indicate that you're okay with voting both...? i said "as a favor" mostly as a (albeit poor) joke, didn't really expect this sort of response.

is it something about just not watching to change?

[northsidegal]

oh, flow should've been one tier lower, so it actually looks like this:

{nsg}
{andante, mare}
{flow, IV, skitter, SS, datisi}
{cakez, pooky, faker, cat} - null
{midway}
{sleepless}

[northsidegal]

NSG why suddenly so obsessed with pushing sleepless through

1) i came back to the thread after having been gone for a few days with only a day and a half left on the clock. as others have mentioned i think that it makes sense to start focusing on ending the day now.
2) i came back to the thread after sleepless made his big post he was alluding to which i was anticipating. so, my read on him is only now taking that into account, as well as the rest of his posting from then on.
3) i'm asking people personally to vote for who i want eliminated because i want that person eliminated. i don't think i'm particularly "obsessed" any more than anyone else trying to get someone they genuinely scumread eliminated. if you're referring to my posts to mare, that was just some horsing around

[northsidegal]

I was very aware that it was joking, and I wanted to make very clear it was unlikely to go anywhere with me.

I have previously mentioned my preference is flow with Sleepless second.

ah, gotcha. hadn't realized that your preference went that way, thought they were interchangeable in your mind given your first vote was on SA before switching.

[northsidegal]

you finally get a wagon on your preferred "lim" and you'd rather swerve and challenge me to some kind of fist fight or w/e

no, this pretty clearly tracks with exactly what he just said in 2263, the post directly before you entered the thread.

[northsidegal]

Nsg why do you townread flow?

while it's still true that i'm not supremely confident in this, i still do think that he has more fun as town and as scum puts more effort into trying to appear to be towny than he has here. even without that, though, the fact that he seems to be a relatively lim-bait-y player would make me want a lot more to vote him than just the idea that he hasn't done enough or is skating by.

[northsidegal]

{cakez, pooky, faker, cat} - null

I don't understand how you could have these four as null given how much content we've all produced

well obviously it must be null content then

[northsidegal]

A flow elim would be so disappointing here. He's actually the definition of limbait (no offense) and nobody has really even presented any real reason for him being scum, it's just "eh he hasn't really been around / doesn't have enough content". Meanwhile I feel like both me and skitter have presented some at least decently compelling reasons to vote sleepless which seem to mostly not have been engaged with.

[northsidegal]

I mean you've spent plenty of time splitting hairs with me over Andante & the like, so it was also a bit annoying for me to see myself land null and that be the crucial content to pay attention to.

I didn't think we were splitting hairs, at least in that conversation. It may not have been super important given andante's status, but I took what you said seriously.

Do you think I should be townreading you?

[northsidegal]

nobody has really even presented any real reason for him being scum

Alright time to yeet myself out of MafiaScum.net and join a lawnmower enthusiast forum instead

i mean yeah to respond to this seriously even if you were joking, if my count is correct we have skitter, Datisi, Sleepless, catboi, Cakez, and IV on flow right now, and i really think that what i said there was more or less accurate.

Datisi's reasoning appears to be flow going "from spam to silence when things started happening, and i don't have better scumreads currently".

Flow trap's reasoning is that he's scum "for his spam/meme posting. It feels like trying to maintain a presence without really doing much. And his content didn't seem to be anything that would get him into trouble if he's scum".

catboi went a bit more in-depth in 2313, but his read on flow's meta and my read on his meta don't really track. i'd really appreciate if he could actually give some examples of what he was talking about – i

am

completely open to having my mind changed if the evidence is actually there, but it doesn't match with what i saw myself.

SirCakez has said "flow is unreadable IMO but I haven't seen anything really townie I guess so I'd rather get rid of them", which is really really not a good reason to be voting someone.

IV seems to be voting for tonal reasons after having read flow's ISO, which I want to sort of get into later.


To be clear, flow trap absolutely could be scum, but I don't find any of the reasons presented here compelling, whereas I do think that there are compelling reasons to vote sleepless.

[northsidegal]

@nsg how do you feel about this argument for voting flow? you know him right?

i don't really "know" flow (andante seems to, though!) but from what i've reviewed it just doesn't seem to match with what i saw. the impression that i got was that he spent less time joking around as scum and tended to go more into asking questions earlier, seemingly making a deliberate effort to be townread. like i said much earlier, i would guess that flow is probably more comfortable as town than as scum, and i think that the behavior he displayed early on in this game seems to match that town comfort more than scum discomfort.

[northsidegal]

i didn't really find anything very convincing on sleepless

if either of you would like to resummarize/requote then ill take another look

i'll restate my own points:
- sleepless

had

time in the thread while working on his catch-up post, but seemingly displayed little interest in meaningful real-time interactions
- sleepless' large post and interactions with datisi are mostly devoid of meaningful, town indicative content
- both me and skitter have independently gotten the feeling that sleepless is playing similarly to a previous scumgame (that both me and skitter were in) and dissimilar to a recent towngame (that skitter was in)

[northsidegal]

shrug

even if that is the case (which was my opinion at the start of this game) i would still rather vote someone i scumread than someone who's unreadable

[northsidegal]

she's saying that you need to put on some fluffy socks and warm those cold feet up

[northsidegal]

NSG do you like neighborhoods?

it might be fun but i'm probably not the best target!!

Cultofathena = nsg

Wait, what?

That means NSG actually saw my final scumgame before hiatus, which is the one where I was completely hammered the entire time and rolled the set of all-star nerds anyway. Interesting.

oh yeah, i used to think you were super cool back when you had the avatar of that lady in what looked like a lab coat but what i actually think was a fire emblem character

not to say you aren't still cool or whatever but yeah

[northsidegal]

Pedit i hope its ok i said that >.> figured if nsg linked the same game was ok

haha i don't actually think i was the one who linked that game, i think that was someone else. but i don't really mind that much

[northsidegal]

Why does 2573 feel more like trying to prove a track record on talking about flow Trap than discussing a read?

i actually really really liked the sort of summary style there of discussing the read progression. i do suppose that's independent of whether or not it's towny, but again i just like the style.

[northsidegal]

admits what?

[northsidegal]

Here, I have some strong reads but have had trouble explaining them which rarely if ever happens to me as scum

this bit

i don't think this is really "admitting something"? or if it is i honestly don't see how it's town indicative

[northsidegal]

he's saying that he's having trouble explaining reads, and also that he's not scum because of that. can you give me just a brief walk through of how this is some kind of towny "admittance" of something? i think that it's pretty normal to make statements about how your behavior isn't scum indicative as either alignment. i also think it's pretty normal to recognize what your play might look like from an outside perspective as either alignment, e.g. by recognizing that you haven't explained many reads.

[northsidegal]

North, if you're scumreading that post of mine you have to think I'm lying.

i'm not scumreading that post, i'm just disputing the idea that you're "admitting" something which is town indicative

[northsidegal]

North, if you're scumreading that post of mine you have to think I'm lying.

i'm not scumreading that post, i'm just disputing the idea that you're "admitting" something which is town indicative

Right so you have to think I'm lying about scum-me being able to find something to back up reads just to make it look stronger.

no, not really. without even commenting on whether or not i think you're lying (which i genuinely have basically no opinion on), my point was that the act of saying what you're saying itself wasn't really "admitting" something, it was just stating a behavior of yours this game and stating that it's town indicative for you.

2612 makes me scratch my head now that I see it.

I think I understand but am just going ???

i think i understand the point pretty well, he basically seems to be making the "self meta is towny" argument. i've argued this myself many times before. in this instance i personally find it not super compelling, but i more or less understand his point.

[northsidegal]

i had a very short part of my dream in which flow flipped scum and everyone laughed at me for being wrong, and i think there was something about someone being a witch: either the witch was me, or maybe it was "flow witch" or something. anyways, this of course has no relevance to the actual game, everyone knows reading tea leaves is the only true way to divine alignments.

on a completely unrelated note, i think it's mildly scum indicative how much datisi's posting seems to have slowed down ever since the sort of "deadline scramble" part of the game began

[northsidegal]

oh no...

Subject: mini 2126: the game is OVRE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i had a dream that we eliminated luna and she flipped scum. thankfully i don't put much stock in any latent clairvoyant abilities i might have.

i really think that i am at the last scum being in {eddie, SS, penguin}, and i'm not sure how much my mind is going to be changed at this point.

Luna Fox has been eliminated! she was a

mafia multitasking voyeur.

night 5 begins now and ends in (expired on 2020-04-26 20:45:00). please send me actions by PM or in a PT when applicable. i will end the night early if everyone requests that i do so.

[northsidegal]

(for the record, i didn't plan this or anything. after talking about my dream i wondered "huh, what other mafia dreams have i talked about over the years?", i actually had never even realized that that one turned out to be correct)

everyone knows reading tea leaves is the only true way to divine alignments.

Have you considered putting printouts of avatars on the ground in a circle, about 3ft radius, then chugging a full gallon of milk and spinning until you vomit on one of the pictures?

no, but i have employed a technique of throwing rocks at a glass jug from a significant distance away after someone says the username of other players. if the rock hits, there's your scum.

[northsidegal]

is it self aggrandizing of me to quote something that i said in another game that i was reading through which i find relevant here? whoops i'm doing it anyways!

I seem to get pushed on bad reasoning merely because I have more content and it's easier to find reasons to scumread me

this is actually pretty contrary to what i think. i've found that the number one correlation with dropping on people's readslists and getting eliminated is a lack of thread presence (and yes, this is confirmed through people who are not me and do not have my meta). literally just showing up to the thread often and saying anything goes a pretty significant way towards not getting eliminated, i think.

of course, once you've gotten past that step there are obviously still considerations and that's probably where what you're talking about would come in, but still.

[northsidegal]

only a true weirdo fakeposts about mafia game dreams as scum

RC once actually had some kind of insane experience as town where he remembered events from a game that hadn't actually happened which then mirrored exactly what happened in the game he was in.

later

, he then faked having a similar experience in a game where he was scum for towncred.

it's not super beyond the realm of possibility.

[northsidegal]

...What is the point of 2855 in context? There are like 3 different people that could apply to

i suppose i probably should've added some commentary. it wasn't so much meant to apply to one specific person, i guess my point with it is that it's important to recognize that tendency because of the way that it affects your reads. certainly sometimes lowered thread presence may be scum indicative, but in general it seems more likely to just be some form of cognitive bias. so, for instance, after seeing that i thought to myself – "is what i was saying about datisi's presence falling off

actually scum indicative

, or is it just this natural tendency affecting the way that i think?"

i think based off of what you've said about the other game and having seen this quote that it's more likely not actually super scum indicative than it is. i'm still going to keep it in mind for tomorrow, but yeah.

[northsidegal]

flow is at L-1 fyi

[northsidegal]

shrug, i sort of hate voting slots who are just not here. guess it'll be interesting to see if my dream reads really do work

[northsidegal]

North can you give a quick readslist, maybe brief summary or the linestyle I do?

Unless you agree with Datisi that it is antitown or just want to make me lose a few hairs to mild mald

something like this probably:
{nsg}
{andante, mare}
{IV, skitter, SS, faker}
{flow, datisi, menalque, cat} - null
{midway, cakez}
{sleepless}

Also just kind of curious why you haven't advocated a Sleepless vote a bit more doggedly

it's hard to defend someone who just isn't here and who is most of the time nigh-unreadable, and i only have so much energy when it comes to hardcore tunneling sleepless (and i think that only so much talking is actually that effective, it hits its limit and then becomes counter-effective if you overdo it). i was advocating in my own from the other day by just straight up asking people to vote with me (which i find is surprisingly effective) and by questioning everyone's reasons for voting another wagon. that being said, i do appreciate that people have started to notice how much of like the last forty posts he's made have all just been random like self-preservation snipes, so maybe later i'll try to point that out a bit more clearly.

[northsidegal]

North knows my main. Or at least she used to. Not sure if she remembers.

I don't think anyone else here does.

Oh, we have skittles here. They'd know too.

unfortunately having an obsession with stalking down the mains of alts means that i forget as many as i discover, so yes unfortunately i don't remember anymore.

although any time someone says that to me (which is surprisingly frequently) i always have to go back and check. and now that i have, we've played actually quite a few games together! they're pretty old though, at least relative to how long i've been on the site

[northsidegal]

what do we all think of cakez here?

[northsidegal]

is the fluttering distracting

[northsidegal]

what do we all think of cakez here?

I could vote him.

no no we're voting sleepless today, i just want to talk over cakez. from memory other people have some pretty strong opinions on him but while i don't really share any strong opinions there, i do think that some of his posts have pinged me as being mildly scummy and i want to hear other people's thoughts.

[northsidegal]

wouldn't it be really funny if these two wagons were both town and midway was scum and we were just wasting our time here

i think it would be

it would be a painful kind of funny, yeah.

[northsidegal]

also fwiw i don't think scum sleepless keeps trying to herd votes back to himself .... >.>
should we try a midway flashwagon?

is he trying to herd votes back to himself, though? the argument he seemed to be making was that he would be focusing votes away from flow to try to disrupt wagons, but it seems to me like given that flow is his main counterwagon, trying to disrupt that would only serve to have his own wagon be the strongest. in other words, he's encouraged to get people on flow, because flow is his primary counterwagon and a flow elim seems to be his best shot of not dying today. does that make sense?

[northsidegal]

is he trying to herd votes back to himself, though? the argument he seemed to be making was that he would be focusing votes away from flow to try to disrupt wagons, but it seems to me like given that flow is his main counterwagon, trying to disrupt that would only serve to have his own wagon be the strongest. in other words, he's encouraged to get people on flow, because flow is his primary counterwagon and a flow elim seems to be his best shot of not dying today. does that make sense?

to be clear, i don't think that that behavior is scummy – i think that it makes sense for anyone regardless of alignment to be trying to get more votes onto their own counterwagon (although obviously context can change that). it just doesn't seem to me like sleepless is trying to get votes onto himself – datisi was already voting flow, a vote shift from datisi is a bad thing for sleepless because the flow wagon being less likely to go through means sleepless' wagon is relatively more likely.

no, i get that, but when people suggest voting elsewhere he keeps telling people to vote flow or him (not putting ny particular emphasis on flow, and including himself) , he's done it a few times now

mm, i understand what you're saying but contextually i'm just not sure i agree that it's town indicative.

[northsidegal]

Sleepless is trying right now and I don't see any scum motivation in shooting down alternate wagon suggestions; meanwhile flow has done jack shit so I think the choice for me is pretty clear

the scum motivation in being against people currently on your counterwagon exiting your counterwagon to split votes and leave you as the largest wagon seems clear.

i think that it may be a bit of a stretch (or at least i would need some kind of evidence) to say that flow trap's complete absence is indicative one way or the other.

[northsidegal]

Sleepless is trying right now and I don't see any scum motivation in shooting down alternate wagon suggestions; meanwhile flow has done jack shit so I think the choice for me is pretty clear

the scum motivation in being against people currently on your counterwagon exiting your counterwagon to split votes and leave you as the largest wagon seems clear.

i think that it may be a bit of a stretch (or at least i would need some kind of evidence) to say that flow trap's complete absence is indicative one way or the other.

ummm I'm not seeing what you're seeing re;SA wagon

so let me be clear – the scum motivation in shooting down alternative wagon suggestions is that the people that would be switching to those alternative wagons are already voting flow (sleepless' counterwagon), and so them switching would be splitting the vote between that counterwagon and flow, leaving sleepless as the top wagon. i'm not saying that sleepless is scum

because

of this (i think that it's reasonable regardless of alignment), but i don't think that it's towny like you think that it is.

[northsidegal]

This makes like 0 sense? Sleepless is maf, and partners are refusing to vote there, instead partners are like "ayyy im voting here" which is why none of you will vote sleepless

what are you talking about???? i'm literally the oldest vote on sleepless

maybe read that whole interaction again, it seems like you misinterpreted

[northsidegal]

in all likelihood unless these are both scum like literally i can't see how we actually kill scum with this little time left but /shrug

i'm not sure i really understand what you mean here.

[northsidegal]

i feel like scum don't have to try very hard to manipulate the votes such that it ends on town given how clueless some of us are with how little time there is left.

hm, wouldn't you think that scum would have either already done that if they easily had the capability to, or we were never going to hit scum at all and so they don't need to?

in other words, i don't think that a town elimination is inevitable unless the major wagons {flow, sleepless, midway} are all town. does that make sense and is it clear how i'm disagreeing with what you said? maybe it's not super important

[northsidegal]

good luck with your ankle skitter

[northsidegal]

yeah i mean mare plus one other person is enough for sleepless which seems like the easiest path

[northsidegal]

Northsidegal did you have any thoughts on this?

Anyway Faker I'm not seeing whatever you're seeing in regard to the northside interactions from sleepless sorry to disappoint yet again

tl;dr: IMO noticeably more worried about northsidegal reading him correctly than utilizing her reads, has mostly thrown in towel on swaying her and iirc had virtually given up on that front. Doesn't leverage her read on flow trap at all and completely ignores it. Pair w/ Sleepless thinking she had knowledge of main at start, likely targeted interactions+selective ignorance.

Very rushed outline, no longer have time to read and will not before deadline. Absolute comedy of errors atm requiring borrowing items from 5 different people/entities, community effort interview, still have to do a bunch of research/prep and it is shortly after deadline.

yeah so i mean i pretty much entirely ignored / didn't respond to his whole section directed towards me in his big post and he seems to mostly have just not brought it up at all, which i think sort of plays into what you're getting at here. i think that our only real interactions since then have been when he's responded to my disagreeing with people townreading him, but that's all been responsive rather than any sort of affirmative argument from him to me as to why i should be townreading him. i don't think that's super scummy, to be clear, but it does play into a broader narrative – like i mentioned, i think the more salient point is how much i (unintentionally really, but still) ignored what he said to me in his big post and how it never really got brought up again.

arguably this is a factor of him never being caught up but in that big post the first thing he says to me is "we're gonna have to do some real time interaction" which is possible without being caught up. arguably he just decided that it wasn't worth it when i came back and immediately voted him, but still.

[northsidegal]

for the record (and without trying to come across as smug or "i told you so" or whatever), what's happening exactly right now is what i was referring to when i was talking about not wanting to "split the vote" on your counterwagon

[northsidegal]

seems strange to me to move from the sleepless wagon when he's at 7 and intent has been declared

[northsidegal]

skitter you should really just hammer now

[northsidegal]

why? ill be around to hammer if needed

i don't trust that you'll hammer sleepless, i consider it a quite likely possibility that you hold out for more votes on flow and then the ball is in the sleepless voter's court (so to speak) for them to switch and get a hammer on flow

if i were truly committed to one wagon going through over the other (or if i were scum) i might do something like that

[northsidegal]

essentially you could force us into a game of chicken and i don't want that to happen.

[northsidegal]

i hope you'll understand if i don't find that particularly convincing. anyways, this is mostly moot, it's skitter's decision.

[northsidegal]

is the difference that big? i mean ur the setup guy so i can't rly argue with u but that feels kind of counterintuitive to me

like all the killing roles for example, are really good scum roles bc they're just extra free kills

so are things like roleblocker

like it's not obvious to me that these benefit town much more than scum

ill give you that ascetic cop/bulletproof is more useful for town than scum

power roles in general are skewed towards town, i.e. through luck or through good play town can make a lot more gains with power roles than scum can because typically the best thing scum can do with their roles is disrupt town power roles whereas town gains a lot from information or from kills

in a setup like this where scum can have a vig then that might be one exception but generally SS is right

[northsidegal]

hopefully this is right! i'll feel foolish if it isn't

[northsidegal]

no, no i just feel extra foolish then

[northsidegal]

you know i think i'm gonna be a little bored with two days of night

[northsidegal]

Fortunately that's only 10% and 20% respectively of the reason to remember the name

absolutely genius

[northsidegal]

welp!

[northsidegal]

Over LIME doctor?
(Fwiw, this is incredibly important: i asked schadd if everything can be flavored lime, and he said no)

Didn't know what lime doc was and couldn't find it anywhere

lol

[northsidegal]

sorry for the absence, reviewing time

[northsidegal]

hello skitter! i got sidetracked! and will likely be sidetracked for the next ~30 minutes before i really shift focus here