Open 857 | Frienemies | Postgame
-
-
fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 9251
- Joined: January 25, 2022
-
-
fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 9251
- Joined: January 25, 2022
In post 2953, Something_Smart wrote:I've reread everything I want to. I would like to kill Datisi. However, that seems like it immediately loses us the game if Datisi is town.
what i took this as is you claiming VT. here's why:In post 2955, Something_Smart wrote:I guess it probably doesn't benefit us for me to explain my reasoning.
I would also be fine killing Looker, if that somehow materializes.
from a mason perspective, there could be 2 or 1 mafia in the unclaimed. under an assumption that me/enchant are town, a datisi townflip means that the other 2 unclaimed are mafia and thus the game is easy.
from a vt perspective, there are 2 masons in the unclaimed and 1 mafia. a datisi townflip means that me or enchant are mafia which is bad bc it means that masons will vote you, the VT, instead, and therefore the game is likely to be lost unless you can somehow convince them that me or enchant are the last mafia
so by saying that you felt a datisi townflip loses the game, you are softing VT. there's actually zero benefit to doing this as VT if you're just going to vote datisi anyway, especially when you then go on to say "despite my best efforts, a mason will probably still die". if that was still your top priority, you wouldn't have softed VT
the only possible world where it makes sense to do that is as like a bait as mason and hope that mafia picked up on the fact that you fake softed VT??? which would be kinda nutty lol but props if you did that ig-
-
fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 9251
- Joined: January 25, 2022
because implosion was mason and made the call that he was willing to assume me and enchant are town
regardless the point is that the possibility of me or enchant being scum is the thing that makes the game much harder, because current town consensus was assuming us as town
i don't believe that there's any other reason to think that a datisi townflip would immediately lose the game, but you're free to explain your thought process behind that statement if you'd like to-
-
fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 9251
- Joined: January 25, 2022
that's fine. i will probably be voting for you since even without that i think you make the most sense as a datisi partner, but i want to give things another look first
to clarify the point further: it doesn't matter if you're assuming me and enchant are town. but for a mason, a datisi townflip doesn't make the game any harder. they know where they want to look for mafia after that. nothing has fundamentally changed. implo clearly had that possibility in mind and had a plan to move forward. even if they have some suspicion of me/enchant, a datisi townflip provides no new information that would make them think the game was immediately lost.
a VT being in the unclaimed, however, would know that the game would be significantly harder to win if datisi flipped town-
-
fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 9251
- Joined: January 25, 2022
my case is that it doesn't make sense for you to say that as VT because you have been playing this game very guarded about that sort of thing and there is no benefit to a VT to suddenly throw that away at the finish line when it doesn't actually contribute anything to town wincon to say that unless you are unwilling to vote datisi
there is obvious benefit to saying that as mafia: you look like you're having towny doubt at the final moment, you look like you're thinking about future possibilities from a town mindset, and you might even convince someone that we shouldn't kill datisi there-
-
fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 9251
- Joined: January 25, 2022
i can't see why you would soft VT as your only point of discussion, no.
if protecting masons is still your priority, then either talk about some other reason for your doubt or just deal with it tomorrow
if you've already given up on protecting masons, and instead you want to just share your thoughts and discuss whether datisi is the best elim here, then i don't think being coy about it in the way that you did makes sense-
-
fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 9251
- Joined: January 25, 2022
-
-
fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 9251
- Joined: January 25, 2022
i just struggle to believe that your worry about that possibility would override your desire to protect the masons when stating the worry doesn't really accomplish anything anyway
and you've throughout the game been willing to sacrifice sharing plenty of thoughts with the justification of protecting the masons-
-
fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 9251
- Joined: January 25, 2022
-
-
fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 9251
- Joined: January 25, 2022
-
-
fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 9251
- Joined: January 25, 2022
like i think your play yesterday surface level looks... not great, but it would also be kinda throwy as partners with datisi if he isn't even gonna try to stay alive
thats kinda an all in move to get a town elim and then hope somebody messes up in elo
and datisi did not seem on board with that at all-
-
fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 9251
- Joined: January 25, 2022
-
-
fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 9251
- Joined: January 25, 2022
-
-
fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 9251
- Joined: January 25, 2022
-
-
fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 9251
- Joined: January 25, 2022
since this post, to be specificIn post 1667, fireisredsir wrote:ive reread some things again and i changed my mind, i don't think i want to hunt on wagon anymore rn
im cool with looking mostly in [george, mala] for now
UNVOTE:
there were times where i considered the possibility of it being Ari/gamma/implo instead
(her 50 followed by 74 was a hilarious accidental crumb, and her 1662 and 1769 made a lot of correct assumptions in a way that seemed like it could be informed)
but def not by the time ari got killed. and i would have always killed implo first anyway-
-
fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 9251
- Joined: January 25, 2022
also lol at this, smh datisiIn post 1669, Datisi wrote:
i really wanna hear what these ~things~ areIn post 1667, fireisredsir wrote:ive reread some things again and i changed my mind, i don't think i want to hunt on wagon anymore rn-
-
fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 9251
- Joined: January 25, 2022
anyway it started when implosion made 1340, i was extremely confused. this is not a post that i would ever expect to see from implosion.
the previous game i played with him was chromavalon (a game where scum wins if at the end they correctly guess who the muses are, which are a group of informed town). he was town and was v careful about this, changing his playstyle, putting a lot of thought into what thoughts he shared and how he shared them to avoid doing anything that might out a muse (and he was one of them).
so seeing him just casually say this was super weird, bc the obvious next thought i would expect him to have is "maybe george is a mason and that's why he isn't getting as much pressure". he even kinda hints at that with "not sure if it's a useful question to ask". so then why tf is he posting that at all?? i did not understand why he would post that as town
and as scum, there's also no reason to put it in thread. he would be aware that it looks like mason fishing, and if he believes the thought he would just keep it to the scum PT.
i only realized while rereading post-penguin-flip that there is a situation where he might post it, which is if he's scum partners with georgebailey. that way, he's lightly hinting that georgebailey could be a mason and thus shouldn't be pushed, but also on the surface it's a decent partner interaction to have in the ISO in case george ends up getting flipped.
however then i realized while writing about that possibility that he could be a mason without georgebailey, and it was some sort of gambit type thing to see how people respond, or he just wasn't worried about the implications of what he was saying since he knew george isn't a mason. and that possibility was enough to make me not want to go into all of that reasoning, but i still thought he was scum, so i posted 1609, and wanted to hunt on wagon. then his response was good, ari had some good thoughts about the wagon analysis, and i realized some of the weirdness i had seen in multiple places could actually be mason-indicative rather than scum-indicative
i also think he kind of outed as mason to me by not questioning why i suddenly backed off him when he had me as someone he might be suspicious of
so anyway i kill implo n2 10 times out of 10 and i also don't have any reason as scum with datisi to beg him to stop hunting on the penguin wagon d2 (i was pretty sure he was town at that point, oops, i could have been more subtle)-
-
fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 9251
- Joined: January 25, 2022
-
-
fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 9251
- Joined: January 25, 2022
-
-
fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 9251
- Joined: January 25, 2022
-
-
fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 9251
- Joined: January 25, 2022
the short, easy reason why it's s_s is that datisi started d2 with his whole "we should hunt on wagon" push bc he was the only scum on wagon and knew that he could outlive most of the rest of the people on it (except that half of them ended up being masons)
ari is also still right that the vp kill makes less sense from a scumteam with 2 people on the penguin wagon-
-
fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 9251
- Joined: January 25, 2022
-
-
fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 9251
- Joined: January 25, 2022
idk if scum std enters with this (about datisi) as his first real opinion of the game on his scumbuddy and then drops it like immediately cause he kept reading and thought datisi was towny laterIn post 1131, Save The Dragons wrote:the biggest thing was a gut hunch on the first few pages but this post reminds me of how you were in that one game we just played where we were mafia together as you tried to get townie points. this post looks really forced and you tried to soften the blow by saying it was forced but i don't buy it at the present
just kinda seems like he would be more worried about his trajectory there-
-
fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 9251
- Joined: January 25, 2022
-
-
fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 9251
- Joined: January 25, 2022
-
-
fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 9251
- Joined: January 25, 2022
-
-
fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 9251
- Joined: January 25, 2022
-
-
fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 9251
- Joined: January 25, 2022
-
-
fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 9251
- Joined: January 25, 2022
-
-
fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 9251
- Joined: January 25, 2022
-
-
fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 9251
- Joined: January 25, 2022
-
-
fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 9251
- Joined: January 25, 2022
-
-
fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 9251
- Joined: January 25, 2022
i mean you survived until now so that seems pretty good to me
ari thought you were scum until she got convinced that you were mason and then hard defended you for it which kept you alive longer
you have stated before a lack of faith in your own scumplay abilities and so this playstyle seems like a reasonable approach from that perspective. it protects you from getting eliminated early, it prevents you from having strong associatives bc you didn't really give many opinions throughout the game, and you may be able to guess who is mason or VT based on how they interact with your approach
and yea if you're scum it didn't work well enough, because here we are. but that happens sometimes, i don't think that's a very convincing argument for why you can't be scum-
-
fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 9251
- Joined: January 25, 2022
yea i agree i don't think it's a very good approach. that doesn't make me think you're town tho. the alternative fmpov is looker and i think her approach makes even less sense as scum
and yesterday you were VLA and had 4 posts in the span of a week. i don't understand your argument here
you're saying if you were scum you "could have been appearing to do something" more than you actually did?-
-
fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
-
-
fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 9251
- Joined: January 25, 2022
-
-
fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 9251
- Joined: January 25, 2022
yea those are my two options. i think it's SS thoIn post 3046, hutmeil wrote:
You willing to elim Looker instead? For me it's either SS or Looker.In post 3044, fireisredsir wrote:hut? thoughts?-
-
fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 9251
- Joined: January 25, 2022
all of this is written as if you had any control over datisi dying. which... you didn't, at all. it was not a conscious choice by the scum team to sacrifice datisi. implo had reasons to suspect him, so did i, hut agreed with implo. that's 3 town leading the push onto datisi. it didn't really matter who hammered bc once that's what me and implo wanted i don't think the day was ending anywhere elseIn post 3057, Something_Smart wrote:It doesn't make any sense for a me/Dats team to bus like that. I begrudgingly admitted I wanted to kill Datisi only after he was E-1, and even then, I left a pretty big out that I had to wait for fire and implosion to shut down. That's not me looking to get towncred off a flip I know is red.
Furthermore, a me/Dats team wouldn't want Dats to die that day-- we would much rather it be me. The only reason I was shielded so long is because I technically could have been a mason, and we'd know that would run out. Once that did, I would have little chance of winning this very endgame that we find ourselves in. If we wanted to bus, I could have helped Datisi put together a much more convincing case on me-- including pointing out reasons why I was unlikely to actually be a mason and thus I didn't deserve to be shielded. I know Datisi pretty well, we're both pretty tactical thinkers, I think we could have set that up in a way that would be pretty convincing.
Not to mention, he's just a much stronger scum player than me, especially lategame. My scumgame pretty reliably falls apart around D3-4. His scumgame remains solid and he has a lot of strong wins to back it up (most notably the championship game on EM); he only died here due to PoE, because scum allowed the possible-mason shielding to happen.
i do think that if you're scum together then you wanted to either win in 5p or have you die before datisi. i just don't think you really ever had that option
i think that at the start of d4 you thought that enchant was the elim. datisi still seemed to think that i wanted to elim there. and i did, until enchant started being the towniest ive ever seen enchant be. and d4 just progressed in a way where you weren't there, and town gradually headed more and more towards an elim on datisi that he probably thought he could argue his way out of, and by the time it seemed most likely, he didn't really have anywhere else to go. if he had pivoted into trying to bus you, it probably wouldn't have worked and also probably would have only ended up hurting your chances. i really just don't see much of anything that either if you could have done there. and tbh it's probably a bit tiring for him to have to try to solo carry a game
and ok, let's say it's not you. how do his actions make sense as scum with looker? its literally all of the same issues. so the only place where it does make sense that he would be willing to die there is if scum is in me/enchant and just trust that masons keep us locktowned. but enchant killing implo doesn't really make sense bc implo said that he was like 100% on locktowning enchant. i also just kinda believe enchant when they say that they thought std/looker slot is obvious mason lol-
-
fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 9251
- Joined: January 25, 2022
i don't think my read on you has much to do with not understanding or not liking your playstyle?In post 3057, Something_Smart wrote:And one other note that I don't expect to help but I don't see why I shouldn't say it-- I am often read very unfavorably by people who don't know me, because they don't understand/like my playstyle. Whereas, people who know me better can sometimes falsely townread me for things that I can replicate as scum. Obviously scum had other agendas with NK's, but scum have consistently killed off people who know me and left me alive with only people who don't. That is not something I do deliberately. I would always kill hutmeil over implosion last night (and yes, I knew it was you two, no other team makes sense knowing that I am not a mason).
i also just straight up do not believe that you would kill hut over implo lol. implo was clear town leader and without him we're kinda struggling to be cohesive. him knowing you wasn't going to stop him from voting you here, and if anything it gives his vote more weight-
-
fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 9251
- Joined: January 25, 2022
-
-
fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 9251
- Joined: January 25, 2022
-
-
fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
-
-
fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 9251
- Joined: January 25, 2022
-
-
fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 9251
- Joined: January 25, 2022
two factorsIn post 3078, Enchant wrote:Why you fear yolovote if you are almost out of danger being target of one?
From your POV, me/Looker must be mafia and voting each other is good.
1) you're both a little bit... unpredictable. idk what you'll do. which, btw, is why i would never willingly set up this elo if i were scum here. i like to have people in elo who i can predict what they'll do
2) if you just immediately vote each other then the mafia doesn't have to even pretend to try to solve the game. i would like to see that happen first-
-
fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 9251
- Joined: January 25, 2022
-
-
fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 9251
- Joined: January 25, 2022
-
-
fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 9251
- Joined: January 25, 2022
-
-
fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 9251
- Joined: January 25, 2022
ok, idk why it matters, but a few that i looked at were
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=84025
viewtopic.php?f=50&t=83533
viewtopic.php?f=53&t=81560
viewtopic.php?f=50&t=88158
how exactly would you have been set up here? who did the setting up? the masons' decision was that me and enchant were town, and that ss/you should be eliminated after datisi. your own play didn't really factor into that at all. there's no actions that anyone has taken that would lead to you being "the fall guy"-
-
fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 9251
- Joined: January 25, 2022
-
-
fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 9251
- Joined: January 25, 2022
the annoying thing is that im not even that confident bc i feel like i have lots of reasons why looker slot doesn't make sense to me as scum
but maybe they just played the associatives well
datisi feeling resigned to death could come from
1) actually feeling like the game was lost, bc he is partnered with looker and in that case the game is lost
2) wanting me to think that he felt like the game was lost, when actually he's partnered with enchant and enchant is gonna carry the game
3) wanting me to think that he's faking resignation, leading me to think it's enchant, when actually it's just looker still
leaning towards #3 tbh-
-
fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 9251
- Joined: January 25, 2022
-
-
fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 9251
- Joined: January 25, 2022
-
-
fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
-
-
fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 9251
- Joined: January 25, 2022
-
-
fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 9251
- Joined: January 25, 2022
ok but you don't have to read the whole game it takes like 10 minutes to skim a bit and throw out some thoughtsIn post 3097, Looker wrote:None of those games were nearly as long as this one. When I replaced in or even when they finished.-
-
fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 9251
- Joined: January 25, 2022
-
-
fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 9251
- Joined: January 25, 2022
alternatively you could answer these questionsIn post 3091, fireisredsir wrote: how exactly would you have been set up here? who did the setting up? the masons' decision was that me and enchant were town, and that ss/you should be eliminated after datisi. your own play didn't really factor into that at all. there's no actions that anyone has taken that would lead to you being "the fall guy"-
-
fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 9251
- Joined: January 25, 2022
im probably just sleepy but this really looks like datisi is saying that he doesn't know george or my alignments, implying that he does know penguin's lolIn post 1110, Datisi wrote:whether that (my last post) carries on into "so hutmeil is more likely town based on The Wagons", i don't know
the composition of the wagon on him is definitely worse than on mala. i don't think george's or fire's votes are a possible bus. penguin's could be. so. maybe statistically slightly +town, considering i don't know the alignments of the first two.
idk how else to interpret that tbh-
-
fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 9251
- Joined: January 25, 2022
-
-
fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 9251
- Joined: January 25, 2022
-
-
fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 9251
- Joined: January 25, 2022
-
-
fireisredsir Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Posts: 9251
- Joined: January 25, 2022