Open 870 | White Flag Mountainous | Postgame

[Lucian]

Greetings!

First of all, some people here know this, and some don't, so in order to make it fair for everyone: this is an alt of Datisi.

Also, I will be lazy this game. That is what I told myself, at least. University is killing me right now. Will I end up going back on that and posting a lot anyway? Probably. But I will try not to.

VOTE: Aubrey - (very) long time no see!

[Lucian]

actually no I’m still confused

Aubrey is familiar with Toto, BBT, and Gamma (and me).

giuseppina is familiar with everyone but Toto and BBT.

[Lucian]

I like Toto.

[Lucian]

giu (can I call you that?) seems like town rn

Do you have experience with her games? Scumgame, specifically?

VOTE: lucian Datisi must die

What did I do??

DATISI HI

TGP HI

I am intrigued by both Klick's list in 79 *and* Aristeia calling it a good start in 82.

I think Aubrey is above-rand likely to be town for 76.

Norwee can be slightly-above-rand likely to be town for vibes.

Super Sekrit tell says Aristeia is scum this game.

VOTE: Klick

[Lucian]

I am intrigued by both Klick's list in 79 *and* Aristeia calling it a good start in 82.

do you disagree with any of his townreads?

Yes, with all of them.

Well, I guess I am not against a pina townread by

this

point. I don't think Una's done anything AI and Gamma is leaning towards scum, if she's leaning either way.

Super Sekrit tell says Aristeia is scum this game.

oooh?

You didn't acknowledge my presence in any way up until this point.

[Lucian]

It's 10 personality traits of a beta female, Gamma, can't you read?

My bad, Ari. <3 I hope you'll be able to forgive me.

[Lucian]

A literal second after I posted 112, my laptop crashed. It must be jealous.

Pedit: for being so silly and not realizing what you were doing, obviously!

[Lucian]

can you explain how you formed the thought "Ari isn't paying attention to me, she might be scum!" because if anything I'd think I'd be more flirty with you if I was scum so I'm not sure how you formed that thought.

It wasn't a serious thought, I mostly just wanted to see why you're not interacting with me. And I remember tinfoiling once that you're scum because you weren't flirting with me (you were not scum) so I went with that angle. I just wanted to get your attention I'm sorry I lied I don't have a read on you yet

[Lucian]

Well, I guess I am not against a pina townread by this point

What did pina post between 79 and 109 that makes you make that distinction?

Do you mind if I answer this later? After you tell me why you were townreading the people you were townreading.

[Lucian]

can you explain how you formed the thought "Ari isn't paying attention to me, she might be scum!" because if anything I'd think I'd be more flirty with you if I was scum so I'm not sure how you formed that thought.

It wasn't a serious thought, I mostly just wanted to see why you're not interacting with me. And I remember tinfoiling once that you're scum because you weren't flirting with me (you were not scum) so I went with that angle. I just wanted to get your attention I'm sorry I lied I don't have a read on you yet

you could've just said you wanted to flirt with me

As an Alpha Male™, I legally have to be mysterious and not let my intentions be known freely.

[Lucian]

Bold of Shirou to assume I was reading the dance game.

Aubrey is an enormous mood right now. Consciously I know nothing they've said is very difficult to fake as scum, but I want to believe I'm right.

Klick's 217 is bleh. Saying that someone's solving comes from "them trying to figure the game out" is a textbook early-scumhunting sentence that doesn't really inspire confidence I guess. Maybe it's because I can kind of see what Norwee is saying about her recently. Level zero.

I didn't even rememver any of Gamma's takes because she seemed like a non-presence so far so the mindmeld is also kinda meh but whatever.

The pina explanation is

fine

. I read her by seeing how much and how long I get a "???" feeling when reading her posts. Her posts have a unique style to them as either alignment, but there is a certain internal logic to them when she's town, which I find lacks when she's scum. I started the game thinking her posts were a bit of "???" but they have been getting better recently so.

Klick, why are you voting Ari?

[Lucian]

I’m only comfortable with two peeps right now.

Who are these two again?

[Lucian]

You and Pina don’t worry me so far. Y’all seem to be doing acting as town should in my eyes.

Huh. Mind explaining why? I don't feel like two of us are playing similarly to one another, or that dissimilarly to others.

[Lucian]

The pina explanation is

fine

. I read her by seeing how much and how long I get a "???" feeling when reading her posts. Her posts have a unique style to them as either alignment, but there is a certain internal logic to them when she's town, which I find lacks when she's scum. I started the game thinking her posts were a bit of "???" but they have been getting better recently so.

it kinda feels like you may be doing ‘lucian reads giuseppina’ rather than reading me so far +/

Yes, that is what I am doing. If I'd had a concrete read on you, I would've said so.

"But Lucian, you said you were not against a pina townread in--" I know what I said. Not being against the townread doesn't mean I was agreeing with it yet.

[Lucian]

it just kinda feels like you know how you generally read me and are kinda replicating that rather than actively reading me here but i do not fully know how to take into account your being busy and saying you planned to be lazy this game and such so maybe this is unfair of me

No, I figured out what you were saying. And that was my response to it - the post you quoted wasn't meant to be read on you. Me saying that I'm not against a townread on you means that I do not actively disagree with a townread on you, and that I can see why someone else would townread you and that it's fine. I was trying to explain why I felt that I do not need to be actively wary of your slot currently.

[Lucian]

Does that make sense? I feel like you're thinking it's potentially scummy that my "read" on you is vague/emulated/however else you wanna put it, but like. That wasn't meant to be super detailed. Your posts weren't giving me alarm anymore. I did not feel like pondering on it further.

[Lucian]

no i am saying all of those players are capable of heavy solving and so it becomes very difficult to weigh

Is this talking about only the capability of heavy solving as town, or as heavy solving as either alignment?

[Lucian]

I was interested in what you mean by "becomes difficult to weight", I guess. Because I know you read meta a lot, and like a lot a lot. And all of my scumgames in the past ~6 months were me tryharding and taking an active role. Which I assumed you know (and if you didn't, you do know, and can verify) and I assume it makes some sort of difference when evaluating me based on effort vs. someone who has demonstrated already to be less likely to effort as scum?

[Lucian]

But you always think that... :<

[Lucian]

remember when you just casually walked into town with a dragon that you caught looking all sheepish and like it was no big deal

yes i know its unfair to think that would happen again because dragons dont fly around here anymore but still.

That was one game a year and a half ago! And if your expectations for me are "either murder a scumfuck within 12 hours of the game starting, or you're scum", you're never gonna townread me...

[Lucian]

I was interested in what you mean by "becomes difficult to weight", I guess. Because I know you read meta a lot, and like a lot a lot. And all of my scumgames in the past ~6 months were me tryharding and taking an active role. Which I assumed you know (and if you didn't, you do know, and can verify) and I assume it makes some sort of difference when evaluating me based on effort vs. someone who has demonstrated already to be less likely to effort as scum?

this feels somewhat deceptive intentionally because you're only looking at half of a quadrant on purpose

Uh, yes?

241 seemed to be implying that I'm more likely to be mafia for not efforting. 254 had a similar vibe with the a) point of the post. I don't think that's valid to say about someone who has consistently demonstrated to be able to effort as scum. And I know pina loves meta.

I'm not claiming I should be townread for not efforting.

[Lucian]

Like, I think "lower effort = more likely to be scum" is correct on average, but I am very clearly not an "average" player in that regard and shoving me into that box while looking like you're looking for excuses to discredit me is weird and I'm going to ask about it?

[Lucian]

241 seemed to be implying that I'm more likely to be mafia for not efforting. 254 had a similar vibe with the a) point of the post. I don't think that's valid to say about someone who has consistently demonstrated to be able to effort as scum. And I know pina loves meta.

I think she was expressing suspicion of the people saying that not efforting -> scum though.

That is not the way I read it. "Scum benefits if people don't expect solving from them," which in my mind resembles "scum is likely to effort less".

pina is obviously welcome to clarify if I got it wrong, but yeah. You callout does make more sense now, at least.

[Lucian]

if I sprained my ankle would you carry me up the mountain even if we didn't share the same alignment Dats?

Of course I would. <3 Even if you might stab me in the back when we get to the top.

Anyway, I don't agree on the theory talk from Ari and pina but I don't think it's AI and it wouldn't help me read anyone so I will not argue about it.

Aubrey! Can you sell me on Shirou being scum? Or Klick being town?

[Lucian]

She's done nothing to make me townread her

And everyone else

has

done something to make you townread them? Because this doesn't make sense to me otherwise, but I also feel like this is not it.

I answered your 127 here:

I read her by seeing how much and how long I get a "???" feeling when reading her posts. Her posts have a unique style to them as either alignment, but there is a certain internal logic to them when she's town, which I find lacks when she's scum. I started the game thinking her posts were a bit of "???" but they have been getting better recently so.

And then I talked more about it with Ari and pina.

[Lucian]

Why was this specifically not true for your giuseppina read at post 79, but it was specifically true at post 109? As implied by this post:

It was not "specifically true" or whatever. I started off the game thinking pina is weird and stilted, in a way I find scummy from her, especially post 24. I saw your readslist, I thought it was overall odd. I kept reading, I thought pina's posts weren't *that* bad and that I could understand if someone was townreading her. I don't know which posts specifically did it, it probably wasn't any specific post; I could go back and pick some posts but this feels like a waste of time and I am highly skeptical this is something that is like, actually thought to be AI by anyone.

Do you have higher expectations of Ari? (Also @pina, I did not assume so because I don't recall Klick and Ari playing together.) Or has everyone else done something that you would consider something that scum wouldn't do?

Why am I scum?

[Lucian]

I'll go here since I am skeptical of the expectation that I would be more solvy rn

Is that really the only thing you're voting them on?

[Lucian]

Actually, I wanna say that's townie for Gamma because she's surely aware how scummy that sounds and wouldn't actually type that and press Submit if she were scum.

Right?

[Lucian]

do you have high expectations of me?

Can't say that I don't. :3

[Lucian]

Actually, I wanna say that's townie for Gamma because she's surely aware how scummy that sounds and wouldn't actually type that and press Submit if she were scum.

Right?

I don't think she's definite scum but I would read it at face value instead of level1 WIFOM.

Last time I decided to make a read like that on level1 WIFOM rather than face value, I got slapped with a red flip and an egg on my face. But I'm still a sucker for WIFOM I guess.

[Lucian]

and now I've done that and you still haven't given a proper answer

That was always going to be my answer... I just don't like answering before others answer what I asked of them first. >_>

[Lucian]

That's. Fine. I guess. "I don't have a townread off this person and they have posted a lot of things" is a more nuanced take than what I gave it credit for at first. Annoying that I have no way of verifying any of that but that's how mafia works sometimes.

[Lucian]

Well simple Gamma! Your not a anime girl

cringe + L + ratio + kinda scummy actually
Like, letting avatars dictate your gameplay could be an easy way to avoid having to actually solve

If this post wasn't meant as a joke, I struggle seeing a town player with a straight face type this post out. Like really?

[Lucian]

Aubrey is joking..gamma are you maf

Oh no.

[Lucian]

Hello, how many posts in the last 8 pages are actually worth reading?

I did see that Shirou wants to murder Norwee, has reasoning been provided yet? Other than the "I know how to read Norwee, sheep me pls".

[Lucian]

I don't think Shirou should be townread for not doing anything and then deciding to actually do something like this. He was already getting comments about being scum, and a lot of this game is familiar with New Year Dance, where he was pretty confident about things and pushing the game forward. Not saying he's scum for it. But also I am annoyed about there not being an actual case or anything on Norwee.

622 is probably townie. Persistence that scum doesn't bother faking much, I think.

[Lucian]

Not really many strong trs but I feel okay with Gamma, Shirou, Gina and Lucian. Very wary of Ari here.

I remember that one instance where you were shutting someone down for townreading me because "holy shit Datisi good at scum???" even though I had done comparatively much more that game than this game. What is up?

[Lucian]

and yeah ‘this is my scumread everyone sheep it i may or may not post my reasoning at some point’ is obviously pretty unreasonable

My personal instinct when I have that strong of a scumread is to explain in detail why they are scum in order to convince everyone of it. I don't

think

Shirou was doing that in NYDP so I'm not considering it AI and I'm too lazy to check, but yeah.

[Lucian]

Yeah okay I relooked at Norwee's ISO and he's still town to me.

[Lucian]

pina, what are your thoughts on the Norwee/Shirou situation, alignments-wise?

[Lucian]

my methodologies have changed i don't overthink shit like that anymore

Valid tho

Have you considered that we will all also be annoying about it if you do not reveal who your scumread is?

[Lucian]

Both "hedging about the whole lobby" and "confessing pina is obvtown" are claims that are not related to my ISO in this game.

[Lucian]

Both "hedging about the whole lobby" and "confessing pina is obvtown" are claims that are not related to my ISO in this game.

[Lucian]

Does it really count as a secret scumread when Cakez recently made a post that says "I'm very wary of Ari"?

Anyway, I think Cakez is town now.

[Lucian]

This is usually the part of the game where I go "hehe let's see what happens" and vote Aristeia but the thought of it makes me sad because I don't like voting Aristeia even if I think she's more likely to be scum of the two wagons and I do want to see what happens.

[Lucian]

I think Lucian might be scum

Do you wanna, like, do anything about it?

[Lucian]

Why do I get the feeling that I would also get ignored by Shirou if I asked about those reads.

[Lucian]

Lucian does look like a scum reaction to a dumb fight between townies to me

What.

[Lucian]

I don't feel like he took much of a stance as much as he tried to make it look like as if he has a stance on what is happening in the thread

How am I supposed to take a stance on "hehe guys we should totally kill Norwee I'm not saying why tho just trust me"?

[Lucian]

Like, I'm sorry, I'm kind of annoyed now. I had a townlean on Norwee before, you create a situation that you want me to take a stance on by... telling everyone to vote Norwee and nothing else. I ask why, say I still think he's town. No, that was a reaction test, and I failed because ???.

[Lucian]

I am also annoyed because I townread Shirou now and I think his stances towards Una make a lot of sense. Which is wild because how can he make a lot of sense there but then say *that* about his read of me.

[Lucian]

Like look at that, you say I'm playing similarly as Dance Game

Not what I was saying.

It would make sense if you were saying I could be trying to emulate my most recent town game here but I don't buy that was what you meant/was thinking here.

"a lot of this game is familiar with New Year Dance" = a lot of players in this game are familiar with NYDP (i.e. know what happened in NYPD)

I was saying that, since there's a lot or the same players in this game that were in that game, it is more likely that you would be attempting to emulate that town game here, if you were scum.

[Lucian]

I can try to explain myself better tomorrow

You don't really have to. I don't think it's gonna affect my read on you one way or another.

I

am

interested in discussing it with you, because I don't think your meta is up to date and I would like an opportunity to convince you otherwise. But I already know nothing positive comes from me trying to force that issue, so.

[Lucian]

so what's your take on Una now?

I don't know. She was leaning scum for me a bit back. I don't think I've properly absorbed almost anything in the past few pages because a lot of it feels like noise and I'm annoyed with the game.

[Lucian]

so what's your take on Una now?

I don't know. She was leaning scum for me a bit back. I don't think I've properly absorbed almost anything in the past few pages because a lot of it feels like noise and I'm annoyed with the game.

Why are you annoyed?

Other than most of the game feeling like noise to me, resulting in not knowing what is going on, and my attempts to figure what

is

going on failing, and also getting scumread by half the game for ??? reasons?

I dunno. I said I was gonna take the game easy because I get burned out otherwise, but this is one of those games that I will not be able to Do Quality Reads without efforting. Pain.

[Lucian]

It ok I know people have fun like that I don't like breaking it up when people have fun.

I just cannot function in that >_>

[Lucian]

God, this is going to be one of those games, isn't it.

I have energy to do things but so much of this game feels like noise to me, I am dreading starting anywhere. So I'm doing analysis of the first thing that someone recommends me to do.

[Lucian]

Getting to post 155, realizing I need to read Shirou's ISO up to that point, then looking for his ISO in NYDP. I do think Aristeia is correct about this though. I don't think he was doing a lot in NYDP early, but he was doing some solving sprinkled in between fluffposts. So points for noticing that.

Also, the early readslist in 146 is a good sign. Not unfakeable, but.

The early-ish solve in 410 makes sense and is also a good sign (even though it's very wrong because it includes me and breaks my heart but okay).

The Norwee vote in 575 is painful. Usually it's something I'd call TSTBS but I know I can't use that with Aristeia. And I'm looking at Norwee's reactions to Shirou's push and I am finding it really townie. I think Norwee would be more likely to get aggressive as scum here, as opposed to calmly responding and still looking for scum on his wagon. Especially with how many votes piled on, and how late-ish Ari's vote on it was.

585 is... I won't say leading, but it's made in a way that doesn't really give Norwee room to respond or defend himself. While also giving off the appearance of thinking about the game and sorting. Like, "i'll trust Shirou's read", coupled with the fact that she was scumreading Shirou previously, has an unspoken "I'm going back to trying to kill Shirou if this is wrong" part to it.

And the easiness she goes back to her original solve in 705 is off.

Part of me is tinfoiling that this is a Una/Ari team, where Ari saw that she's leading wagon and that Norwee's wagon is about to fall apart, and even though theoretically it's more likely a wagon on me gains steam, she's instead voting her partner as means of distancing for when she flips...

And I'm biased at this point but calling Shirou-Una bussing is ??? because Occam's says that is never a bus, but she has to try to keep her worldview at least somewhat consistent, no...

Jesus fuck there's been a trillion pedits that I am not reading. I think I'm scumreading Aristeia now please help I don't wanna

[Lucian]

Sorry, I don't speak gif.

[Lucian]

Lucian what are the three players in this playerlist that you're most scared of for their known scum game due to past games/history/off-hand knowledge and rumors?

Please list them in their rankings, like:

"X
Y
Z"

where X is first, Y second and Z is third.

Aristeia
Shirou
Una

Why do you ask?

[Lucian]

I remember that a Baton Pass was a game that was played back when I was in med uni because I was sneaking my phone in my ping pong classes to keep up with the flips of that game. I did not play in it and I didn't read it beyond that.

I'm not saying you bussing Una isn't theoretically possible, a lot of things are theoretically possible. But I feel like Ari was trying to sell the idea that it's somehow likely or that it makes sense, when "Shirou does a fucky with Norwee just to then flashily swap onto his partner" is... not that likely.

@Shirou

[Lucian]

Well its that he says he doesnt want to that makes my heart melt

I wanna keep playing with you... I wanted to link you a song that I found recently and thought was kinda nice, but I went to relisten to it and it didn't exactly fit, so I didn't.

[Lucian]

If Lucian is scum he's not gonna go along with my shenanigans huh

This is the part that reminds me others are playing 5D Chess with Multiverse Time Travel while I'm playing rock paper scissors, because I have no idea what you're saying and I thought I was just answering your questions.

[Lucian]

As my recent post says, I'm not against an Ari yeet here but I'd also want for the replacements to at least get in the game first. Even though the day is almost 40 pages, it doesn't feel like more than 7 pages of content.

[Lucian]

and I am really sorry if my read on you is wrong

Why aren't you explaining why I'm scum? If you think so and are fine with being flipped here?

[Lucian]

Lucian. If you haven't read Baton Pass beyond the flips why am I second in your "feared scum players" list?

Well I know you endgamed as scum in that game, and I know RC was bulletproof town in that game. Even without reading anything you did that game, can't be bad at scum if you did that.

I am also vaguely aware of the events in C9++. I know there was a double cop claim in that game and that scum swept. Mena talked about that game in Autumnal Mafia. (God, that game was so long ago...)

And I was partly keeping up with TM2021 flag game, where I remember Mena saying you were extremely good at scum, and I reckon he would know, since C9++.

I feel like... I have heard of some other Good Scumgames of yours, or commentary from someone, but I can't place it. I am aware of your capabilities, even though I've never actually witnessed them.

[Lucian]

And there's also the thing that not may players at this table are very... scary as scum. >_>

[Lucian]

because i am fine with scum you beating this town.

At face value, this feels like lowkey gamethrowing, which. Hm.

[Lucian]

I was kinda hoping Shirou would elaborate on his method of reading me after my recent posts towards him because he remains to be an enigma to me, but alright.

[Lucian]

Ironically enough, Ari being "fine" with dying here is what is giving me pause but not enough pause.

Shirou, is there anything you'd want my commentary on that would help you solve me?

[Lucian]

Ironically enough, Ari being "fine" with dying here is what is giving me pause but not enough pause.

She was also fine with dying on Dance Game though? She didn't try too hard.

Wasn't she towncasing Norwee there in hopes to get people off him? Or did I imagine that?

[Lucian]

Everyone talking about what a bigbrain team Shirou/Una would be, but the actual bigbrain team is Shirou/TGP.

Anyway, I am in a better mental space today than I was yesterday. Hopefully that will translate into my posting better.

CSF's slot is very likely town. SirCakez did townie things, and this level of involvement and complex thought from CSF feels much greater than anything she did in that recent large normal when she replaced in. And the level of real-time engagement with Ari/Klick is townie.

[Lucian]

Can't say I see the case against TGP, as it was presented. Human memory is weird, and TGP remnds me of myself getting shitpushed that one game by Frogsterking because I forgot something and he concluded that I was only pretending any whatever the fuck. Shirou also reminds me of myself though, when I drop some convoluted meta case and people look at me weird.

The Shirou vote is a bit ??? but I'm also not sure what scum!TGP accomplishes with it. I don't think he thinks he's actually going to convince anyone with it. And there's other wagons he can vote. Unless like, the team is exactly him/Una/Ari, which. I'm not

too

worried about?

[Lucian]

VOTE: aubrey

Do you mind talking more about this vote?

[Lucian]

lucian has three completed town games and they're all significantly townier than his play in this game.

he doesnt feel like hes particularly eager to share takes or engage in solving, i didnt like some of the takes he's had this game because they don't feel organic and it feels like he's more invested in self meta/defense than actually pushing foward to find mafia.

This part annoys me. This is the exact argument I had towards me last game, "the other two games he's played were so townie and he's struggling here, must be scum". Spoiler alert. Was not scum. And I'm not sure why you'd expect me to be eager in sharing takes or engaging in solving, when I'm consistently being shot down and called scum for ??? reasons, and I don't feel like people actually want to interact with me properly.

I am getting doubts on Ari, though... Like, the most recent flurry of solving feels like the most townie thing she's done this game. And the way she's talking about me/Una (more applicable to Una since she's a wagon currently) doesn't feel like she is trying very hard to convince people to vote there, which I feel like scum-her would be more likely to do here.

[Lucian]

VOTE: Una

I'm not sure if my current Klick vote is actually doing anything. And I know "giving Ari space" is a dangerous game if she's scum, but I dunno. I'm having doubts. I'd like other people's thoughts on her recent posting as well.

@Klick, mind giving an answer to the above? Who do you want to vote currently?

Pedit: lol