Open 873: PYP: Anime Music & Memes - Game Over!

[fireisredsir]

well thats interesting

[fireisredsir]

it's pretty believable that greyice would have watched ceph imo

marci wasn't getting nk'd and ceph was second in the draft

[fireisredsir]

it's pretty believable that greyice would have watched ceph imo

marci wasn't getting nk'd and ceph was second in the draft

if he had he should have hardclaimed it but your slot aggressively wolfsided and tanked its standing in my eyes (trying to lolwagon ydrasse under the pretense of drunkposting was honestly gross) so forgive me if i'm less inclined to take you at face value

thats fine

[fireisredsir]

i don't think its really necessary to in this case anyway

[fireisredsir]

it's pretty believable that greyice would have watched ceph imo

marci wasn't getting nk'd and ceph was second in the draft

So...

Do you think they saw me kill ceph? And that is why they guiltied me (and then died)?

idk

my first thought on seeing him flip was that it was a weird kill

my second thought was that maybe maf believed that his hypo cop was not so hypo

my third thought was to go look at the draft order again

so yes i am saying that is possible. peta made a good point that he probably should have just hardclaimed it but he came pretty close ("i have a red result in my inbox") and idk enough about greyice as a player to guess how he would have handled that situation

im not very good at solving things on mech and i don't really plan to try. i was interested in hearing other perspectives on it though (partly bc there are people in here who would know much better than me how greyice would handle that), but that can wait until after massclaim

[fireisredsir]

the odds cop is even in town's hands are not particularly high right now

ok i see what you're saying that if scum have the cop slot then they know all of the hypos are fake

i should stop offering mech opinions tbh. nobody make fun of me for bad mech opinions pls i am small brained

i still think it was a strange kill tho

[fireisredsir]

do we continue the massclaim anyway or no

[fireisredsir]

ok uh hm

[fireisredsir]

do we continue the massclaim anyway or no

there are literally only two slots that can be cop if town now

they should confirm if cop/not cop i think

thats what i was wondering about

[fireisredsir]

isn't there bell and me and LLD (but not really LLD) or am i missing something

[fireisredsir]

hm ok

[fireisredsir]

if marci is town, yes

[fireisredsir]

Anyway

Hypo time

Night 1: Cephrir Town

Day 2 Hypo'd on Grey as scum because 1) my result was useless and 2) if scum shot me because I had hit the mark correctly I'd have left a legacy. So win win.

Night 2: Petapan town

this is funny because these are my exact hypo results as well

[fireisredsir]

oh true tracker fakeclaim does happen to be my specialty

this is actually true tho

[fireisredsir]

i was reading along the whole game btw, didn't have that strong of reads tho y'all aren't easy to sort. here's some weak and hedgy reads if you want them

i leaned town on peta and unwnd

leaned scum on luke slot

bell is not as towny as i think he should be

notscience i didn't have strong feelings on but im ok trusting peta there

LLD i didn't really try to sort tbh. slight townlean maybe

ydra's play looks surface level similar to scummy but on a below surface level it vibes as towny. not enough to want to clear maybe, idk, if peta is confident maybe ill sheep that too

prior to replacing i sort of felt similar to that on marci. i always think she's a little scummy so it's hard to tell what's worth giving weight to

dunn was a slight townlean as well. might have too many townleans. could be wrong on either of these last two and i wouldn't be surprised

[fireisredsir]

you saying that is a good sign

[fireisredsir]

why's dunn green?

[fireisredsir]

id also change that to put marci in the 2nd group and make it 1-2 scum. her pick of 4 is not like the others in the top group, just bc she won the draft doesn't change anything

there's not like a guarantee that scum took a high number, although it's possible

i don't know anything about historical scum drafting strategies in this setup. maybe they always pick one high number

[fireisredsir]

hypothetical scum team A:
- taly chooses 5
- ydrasse chooses 6
- dunn chooses 3

hypothetical scum team B
- taly chooses 5
- ydrasse chooses 6
- marci chooses 4

there's not a significant difference between these two drafts but your groupings say that one is possible and one isn't

scum aren't going to know in advance who doesn't have overlap so "no overlap" as a group doesn't make sense

[fireisredsir]

(to be clear those aren't actual team guesses they're just examples)

[fireisredsir]

"large number to dodge overlap" is a reasonable group but that wouldn't include marci

[fireisredsir]

didn't specify font size. easy

[fireisredsir]

He's deciding to trust other people that Notty is town. I don't know why they're satisfied or comfortable with that. In comparison
they won't do the same for me who is being town read as hard or harder by those layers.

I'm considering like, 3 different teams right now, and one of them has notty in it. It bothers me when people place their reads of me low during an FB Guilty on me, that has 3 players angling for "What a mystery, Bell got investigated, could they be scum together?"
I get that other people have other things in mind and I'm also I think a step behind since I'm still in the LLD and Dunnstral could be scum thing.
Esp. Dunnstral given watcher Gray.
And also dead Gray.
Not much reason to murder Gray unless they were on to something.
Or I guess that they knew that FB oh.
Well whatever, I guess they knew that FB/Gray interaction cleared each other.
Still kinda stuck on why it can't be both tho.

this isn't what i thought you were implying and i like it less than my original interpretation

i think that peta thinks your scumrange is smaller than i think it probably could be if you tryharded and i think your play this game kinda looks like "scum bell except he's trying harder". im not sure of that read or anything but it's enough for me to not call you town

i have no meta on notscience besides like seeing him in a couple games that ive read and idk how to read him. i think peta is more likely to have a correct read there (and have a higher level of respect for his scumrange, probably) and he's pretty confident so i sheep

that said i do also agree with you that LLD/dunn is a specifically a team i thought of as a possibility, so. idk

[fireisredsir]

could be marci and the game is easier tho

[fireisredsir]

bell can effort but as scum but as town he takes it that his alignment should be self-evident and is annoying about it in a way he can't really imitate that as scum because at his core he feels guilty

i agree and that was what i thought he was getting towards when he said i was scummy for my reads but then he wasn't? and i don't really feel like I've seen that energy from him this game. if you have example posts in mind i would look at them, maybe i missed them

the other thing im used to seeing from town bell is when he just dumps his thoughts into thread and usually it's really clear how he's thinking about the game and that he's trying to solve. here he has a few longer posts that come close but they don't quite pass that threshold for me?

i felt he didn't reach that threshold in warrior cats either for a game day or two and i used that to justify pushing him there. but then, he did! and then he was obvtown. and his reaction to me suspecting me ("I'm the easiest sort in this game and either you failed to do so or you're scum." and then i think he voted me) was a lot closer to what you're saying here than i have noticed from him this game

[fireisredsir]

tbf the only time i saw notty-scum he was incredibly flat and also busy with IRL constraints

he had a better game in a theme i wasn't in i guess but again i think his level of solving has been extremely authentic

i don't think he doubles up with taly as scum, i don't get a sense of him as a high risk gambit player, and i don't really think he looks aligned with taly

also even though i teased him about it, i think the way he's spoken about the drafting most likely comes from someone who wasn't discussing picks with a team and faking that uninformed perspective is something that wouldn't be in most players' wheelhouse

hm ok i am maybe slightly less willing to sheep given that tbh but i appreciate the further explanation

i don't really remember feeling struck by authenticity of solving recently at least but i think he was towny earlier. and the numbers point is honestly maybe enough anyway

[fireisredsir]

ok reading his iso again im back to thinking dunn is town, yea

[fireisredsir]

thanks friend!

[fireisredsir]

so true

[fireisredsir]

i think it was a good play tbh

he was prob going to die soonish either way and std might have lived if allowed to claim

[fireisredsir]

morning bell!!

man im so old i cant believe im 20 now how do udeal with being old

boomer

[fireisredsir]

VOTE: firebringer

[fireisredsir]

haven't had a lot to say currently because i feel the current direction of the thread that i feel is going on matches what i feel?

the people i most strongly townread are also townread, and i feel like the people i would want to die most at this point (firebringer and marci, I suppose) are going to be killed. it's hard to force myself to analyze a gamestate where im like "...yeah this is good!"

i mostly feel similar i think which is generally a sign that there isn't much more we need to wait for

[fireisredsir]

@town how obvious was it that my slot wasn't cop

wondering if the dunn kill says anything about how many scum are above me and/or about the marci result

[fireisredsir]

alternatively maybe they just could tell dunn was lying about being VT

i kind of did but my immediate reaction was thinking he was scum. obviously they wouldn't have that confusion

[fireisredsir]

ffery had the same reaction to dunn claim, seems kinda on the nose to say it out loud as scum, i dunno

[fireisredsir]

@town how obvious was it that my slot wasn't cop

wondering if the dunn kill says anything about how many scum are above me and/or about the marci result

before or after the claimed result confirming you as not cop?

are you assuming marci is scum tracker here?

[fireisredsir]

but yea i actually meant before

bc if marci is town or scum tracker then ofc it immediately becomes 100% to scum that i am not cop

if it was questionable before that then maybe that piece of info was actually meaningful to them

[fireisredsir]

@town how obvious was it that my slot wasn't cop

wondering if the dunn kill says anything about how many scum are above me and/or about the marci result

before or after the claimed result confirming you as not cop?

are you assuming marci is scum tracker here?

uh regardless of the result i think it logically tracks like if she's scum i assume it was a trueclaim

ok thats probably true so yea maybe it doesn't matter

[fireisredsir]

I went for cop and got vt. That means fire is lying and the cop is above me on the list, which is likely what this play was fishing for

VOTE: Firebringer

this shakes my read of you a bit. I was getting PR in distress vibes from your reaction to GreyICE yesterday.

this was the post i was thinking of

its a little bold if scum

[fireisredsir]

well guess what

unwnd was also a VT UB picker

[fireisredsir]

oh i could have waited for bell i guess

probably doesn't matter though

[fireisredsir]

imo if more than 3 people pick a role you should just get a second one of it

[fireisredsir]

Also I’m super sorry fire I haven’t interacted w you at all but interacted with unwnd a good bit

i haven't really interacted with anyone tbh im not really sure how to engage with this game

sorry in general for being somewhat useless so far but i don't even know where to start

anyone want to ask me things

[fireisredsir]

i thought luke was scummy from reading along mostly because his reads and interactions felt overly forced and essay-like in the way that he likes to do as scum. rereading that iso is probably a good project i can try to point out the things i didn't like

ffery on replace in didn't make much of a town impression on me but it's hard for me to say what would have. lately my read there has wavered significantly and im not feeling great about it anymore. probably should reread luke

ydra im pretty on board with the general consensus of "town because she just is even though there isn't that good of a reason for it". i did just see her as scum in the dance game and didn't ever feel the same way

[fireisredsir]

Did anyone notice that fire gave a read on unwnd lol

ik people don't generally like that but shrug

the read was informing how i viewed the rest of the game so i thought it was relevant

[fireisredsir]

the super comedy world is firebringer claimed a guilty on bell because bell actually is scum. that would be a funny thing to do so i can't rule out firebringer doing it

i mean that was what i thought he was doing when he did it

[fireisredsir]

i had the thought earlier that if i rolled scum with bell and he was tryharding i would 100% try to blatantly tmi him as obvtown

[fireisredsir]

im rereading luke's iso and not feeling it as much as i did originally

some of the performative/fake sounding notes that it's hitting i think might not be as scum indicative as i initially read them as

[fireisredsir]

that feels very convenient to the conversation at hand lol
why'd the thought cross you?

it does!

the thought originally was about ffery and me not understanding how her modding a game where she saw scum bell's best to date performance from an informed perspective (and not being fooled by it?) was supposed to give weight to her following statement that she had him as a top tier town here

[fireisredsir]

He's deciding to trust other people that Notty is town. I don't know why they're satisfied or comfortable with that. In comparison
they won't do the same for me who is being town read as hard or harder by those layers.

I'm considering like, 3 different teams right now, and one of them has notty in it. It bothers me when people place their reads of me low during an FB Guilty on me, that has 3 players angling for "What a mystery, Bell got investigated, could they be scum together?"
I get that other people have other things in mind and I'm also I think a step behind since I'm still in the LLD and Dunnstral could be scum thing.
Esp. Dunnstral given watcher Gray.
And also dead Gray.
Not much reason to murder Gray unless they were on to something.
Or I guess that they knew that FB oh.
Well whatever, I guess they knew that FB/Gray interaction cleared each other.
Still kinda stuck on why it can't be both tho.

this isn't what i thought you were implying and i like it less than my original interpretation

i think that peta thinks your scumrange is smaller than i think it probably could be if you tryharded and i think your play this game kinda looks like "scum bell except he's trying harder". im not sure of that read or anything but it's enough for me to not call you town

i have no meta on notscience besides like seeing him in a couple games that ive read and idk how to read him. i think peta is more likely to have a correct read there (and have a higher level of respect for his scumrange, probably) and he's pretty confident so i sheep

that said i do also agree with you that LLD/dunn is a specifically a team i thought of as a possibility, so. idk

scum-Bell won in 3p ELO in the Shakespeare large theme game I ran a year or so ago. From my informed perspective in that game, I didn't think he was solidly striking his town-Bell notes, but several players did.

Bell's in my top tier townpile here.

this one

i just don't really logically connect the dots there to why that makes her feel justified in being confident here

which typically makes me think tmi

which then made me think "but wait what if it's SUPPOSED to look like tmi"

which is probably really dumb, honestly

[fireisredsir]

i just don't really think bell is approaching this game in a town bell way

i think he's approaching it closer to a scum bell way except he's posting a lot more and occasionally trying some thoughtdump posts

i just don't really see the actual town bell markers besides "wow he sure is posting more than he usually does as scum"

[fireisredsir]

what are the markers?

to me there's a few things that i think are missing

1) super transparent thought process usually in a self-reflective way. when i first played with him i said it was like he opened up his skull and just plopped his brain on the table and it made him very easy to read

2) disbelief/indignation at people being suspicious of him, this like energy that of course he is obvious town, and everyone should know that

3) solving the game centered around a few key townreads, and even if he stubbornly returns to a certain solve or certain scumread he's usually evaluating new info and trying to sort out how things fit into that worldview he has

if anyone has examples of these that im missing from this game then pls share but i don't really see them

re-reading the iso now i think there's wisps of #1 and they get close but im not 100% convinced of them

2558 is maybe the best example but still it isn't really about his reads or his mindset on the game

[fireisredsir]

bear with me here (no pun intended)

scum could have reasonably ruled out lld as cop based on her initial hypo

but they couldn't have ruled out bell if marci is scum

so why did dunn get shot, unless they had the confidence to know he had to be cop?

yea i had a similar line of thought on seeing the kill

its part of why i was wondering how obv it was that i wasn't cop

[fireisredsir]

i called you scum in warrior cats cause i did think you actually were scummy. until you weren't

idk maybe i should be recognizing that you don't always look your max towniness as town, with that as an example? but i can't help that i don't really see it here

[fireisredsir]

you can if you want to, it can't hurt

[fireisredsir]

it does actually yea

[fireisredsir]

Like, it's really frustrating for the critique of me to be "you're too clean and soft" when I explicitly came into this game trying to be kind and have fun with my friends.

and when it's totally not true because Day 1 and Day 2 I was solving aggressively, and also taking weed and chilling.

Day 3 was more or less a lock and day 4 here today ALSO contains a confirmed townie.

But even today, it would have been so easy to just let Marci die without utilizing peta or trying to solve so I jsut don't get your complaint.

"LLD looks town but she's not being the LLD I know and she's REALLY TOWNIE and I don't have as much paranoia... so I'm paranoid about that".

It's.... gah

You're being agreeable. Denying that isn't true from my perspective. It's not damning, but it bothers me.
I agree you were solving aggressively and on THC, I made a caveat for that in the post you're responding to.
Whenever someone points at you with suspicion you're there, like a customer service representative fielding a complaint. I don't have an issue with your approach to solving.

How you responded to Peta's sudden push on you during STD's lim bothered me because it felt like it mirrored how I've seen you respond when being pushed as scum. Usually I don't see you react much when pushed as town and I'm not really sure you'd default to "we don't know if FB is scum yet and I fucked up" but fire's actions were somewhat clear from an experienced perspective. Then again, I'm not an LLD studier.

I feel like I have to bring out the philosophy bunny every time someone says it's unfair when I'm persecuting them for whatever their innocent reasons were. Leveraging fairness is standard as either alignment. Hell, FB argued they were being treated unfairly. It doesn't really make any sense to me. I'm telling you what I see and what my suspicions are, by definition I'm discriminating against people between town and scum them. That's not unfair, that's the game. The game started. I don't take people at their word.

Okay let me be more explicit.

Your read is bad because it is substatially about how townie I am and about how the things I am doing are townie.

You are banking on paranoia about me with regards to it.

It is not suspicious for someone to be there to respond to being suspected, that's NAI. Both alignments do this thing because both alignments suffer from being scumread.

The statement that "usually I don't react much when pushed as town" is provably false and I can literally go grab a newbie game right now where I spent the whole game being pushed and having to defend my alignment.

The problem isn't that you're being unfair to me, it's that your logic isn't accurate and you're leveraging it against me in a way that doesn't make any sense.

You're not "being unfair for scumreading me". You're being unfair to my position with your bad arguments, and if you are town like I'm supposed to believe because the townies in this game tell me this is Town Bell, it is unfair to just go "she's town but I'm paranoid, lul" and not actually engage with my points. Given I'm town, if you're town you're opening a hole in this game where scum can win from, from my POV.

the issue with this post is that it isn't actually engaging with the things bell is saying

it feels kinda strawman-y

you say that his point is "about how townie [you are] and about how the things [you are] doing are townie". it isn't at all. his points are about finding the way that you're engaging the game to be suspicious. nowhere does he say anything about how he thinks you're town but he's paranoid. paranoia doesn't seem to enter into it at all

calling someone's posts "polished and clean and leaving no room to be criticized" is very much not the same as calling them "townie"

i understand how bell's tone could come across as mocking (and i don't in any way mean to invalidate how it felt to you) but i don't think that was the intent and i agree with what he said. your first line of that post is not something he said, so i would understand it being hard to know how to begin responding to it

[fireisredsir]

and not that it isn't engaging with bell, it obviously is, it's just kind of talking past the points he's making and calling them something other than what they are

[fireisredsir]

im also a lot more comfortable calling bell town now

[fireisredsir]

the meta thing about how you respond to suspicions felt like more of an aside than a crux of an argument to me

if you are town then they are town motivations, sure. but i don't think the actions in themselves are inherently townie

[fireisredsir]

Dude this guy is beetlejuicing like a motherfucker whenever I mention that slot

hi

[fireisredsir]

Bell what do you think of firesir putting in a read on his predecessor

if you want examples of me doing this in previous town replace ins i can provide

i think i do it pretty often, maybe even every time that i can remember?

[fireisredsir]

which post should i make

ill make it

[fireisredsir]

Bell what do you think of firesir putting in a read on his predecessor

if you want examples of me doing this in previous town replace ins i can provide

i think i do it pretty often, maybe even every time that i can remember?

How is this different than me saying "do you want examples of me doing X as town" as part of my response?

Like this is a weird post to make right after what you just said

i didn't take any issue with you saying that

[fireisredsir]

I read that as something he exclusively does as town and is why I am groaning bc now I’m going to have to go look and fact check and all I have is a god damn plastic spoon

that isn't what i meant lol

i think i do it every game that i can think of that ive replaced into, unless the slot had no content. i don't remember ever replacing into a scum slot so there isn't any data on that side of things

[fireisredsir]

Bell what do you think of firesir putting in a read on his predecessor

if you want examples of me doing this in previous town replace ins i can provide

i think i do it pretty often, maybe even every time that i can remember?

How is this different than me saying "do you want examples of me doing X as town" as part of my response?

Like this is a weird post to make right after what you just said

i didn't take any issue with you saying that

No but you said it doesn't matter because it's NAI to effect, right?

so why wouldn't your grabbing this be similarly NAI.

Like I said, I was only grabbing mine to disprove bell.

But now you're doing the thing you accused me of doing, using an NAI prior evidence thing to try and prove a positive that is really NAI.

im not trying to prove that im town. im trying to show notscience that it isn't a scummy thing for me to do because I've done it as town. i think it is a NAI thing for me to do and that is what I'd be trying to show

[fireisredsir]

yea

[fireisredsir]

im not interested in meta points that prove myself town because there aren't any that i know of

[fireisredsir]

Like the post is about 3 things Fire

1) How I am being polished and clean which is refering to the kinder and softer method I am taking with this game.
2) How I am engaging with every argument
3) How Town LLD doesn't engage with every argument.

1) is arguably a town thing given it gives up a lot of thread control and method that have won me a lot of games but it's at least neutral, and more improtantly it references the paranoia people had with me in the early game which was literally "LLD is so clean and different, she looks town but it makes me paranoid" which was my point.

2) I spoke on why point 2 is neutral not just for me but in general

3) I showed provably that this statement is wrong and asked for the reason why he says this is true.

I didn't strawman at all. I addressed each point in order and responded to them.

oops i didn't see this post while responding to other stuff

i guess the main thing is my read of point 1 is substantially different. i didn't take it to be the same as the kinder softer approach

i took to mean that your posts feel constructed to have the rough edges smoothed over so they don't have any flaws

like the point feels more that you're doing all the right things for the sake of looking like you're doing them, rather than because they help you solve the game

and im aware that's pretty vague but i think it is not the same thing as what you're talking about

[fireisredsir]

I just like self meta because no one knows chickens like chickens

im happy to self meta as both alignments

its usually just more about tendencies and preferences than like specific tells though

[fireisredsir]

okay but you see how that's impossible to respond to right?

that interpretation requires me to be thinking that that is a thing i'm doing

which it isn't, but i can't prove that

because for me of course i'm trying to make myself look town. I'M TOWN.

I'm trying a new interaction method to be softer and it means i'm watching how i word things and being less.... yeah

and i think that insinuations that i've been like, not solving the game or not diving deep into things are patently and provably false too, and you only need to look at thigns like my conversatiosn with Dunnstral on day 2 to see that's just not the case

and as for "polished and perfect" what part of this interaction makes you agree with that?

i don't think the comment would apply to this latest interaction, but i think it's believable as an attempt to put words to something feeling off for some of your prior posting

i get that it isn't really something that you can sink your teeth into and pick apart and prove wrong but not everything is going to be

i also wasn't trying to imply that you aren't visibly solving. the concern was more about if that is your primary motivation or not (i know you will say it is. but you would say that it is as either alignment so that doesn't help me much)

[fireisredsir]

i can't speak for bell but i will at least make a better attempt to do so if it comes to that yes

[fireisredsir]

oh yeah well i want a chat with ydra

[fireisredsir]

melo or whatever

[fireisredsir]

oh yeah well i want a chat with ydra

chat with me then

ydra and i share a braincell so

ok uh

hm

i don't know what i want to chat with you about

why do you think greyice died

[fireisredsir]

oh yea that makes sense

[fireisredsir]

i will read when i can again because i have read this entire game as wolf marci

best games to reread: this one

[fireisredsir]

in my pov there's 2 town in LLD/ydra/bell

[fireisredsir]

not necessarily exactly 2

but bell is town and i specifically think you and ydra are not scum together

[fireisredsir]

i thought that bell could be scum (see posting yesterday) and then i think he was really clearly town after being pushed a bit

if he's scum then he fooled me, he wins, im not considering it

i don't really understand what you mean about the role picking? can you rephrase

for you/ydra there were a bunch of little things that added up for me when i was rereading overnight. basic summary is just i don't really believe that you two approach each other in the way that you have if you're partners. it's a bit of a leap maybe rather than something 100% solid, but i just don't see it

[fireisredsir]

i would be interested to know why you're feeling anxious terror

[fireisredsir]

can you link what you're referring to?

[fireisredsir]

ffery uniting you and peta and bell when you were at each others throats

i don't really remember that happening but maybe i missed it or you had a different interpretation of events

[fireisredsir]

i would be interested to know why you're feeling anxious terror

but only as a game way to read me huh?

fine

I'm someone for whom letting people down and being seen as less competent than I really am is a huge pain for me. I have a good chunk of bad brains about it.

And I'm looking at this game and it felt so simple when it was Marci/Ffery.

and now I'm concerned people are gonna go "well, LLD exists in ELO, we gotta kill her" and that would lose us the game and it's the worst way for me to lose everyone the game and it's like.

If you're town and Bell's scum you're so closed off "if he's scum I lose"

and it's wonderful you're able to have that confidence and be okay losing? i'm not?

and i just know people are going to tap into that paranoia they've been doing it all game and i

i don't want to be wrong, and i really don't want to be the losing miselimination when i had all the control in the world on day 2 and got it wrong.

Essentially i'm in a state of exiestential dread that i am resetting my reads back to 0 when i need to be confident to fight this out?

if you are town and are (or later become) convinced that bell is scum then you can certainly try to convince me and i will always read and listen

what i meant by that is that based on the information i have seen so far i am not going to actively consider bell as scum. ive ruled that out for myself because it makes solving easier and because im pretty sure I'm right

it doesn't mean that i will ignore the possibility for all time forever

im not ever 100% confident on anything but i need a base to build a solve around in this type of situation and bell town is where im most comfortable starting with

[fireisredsir]

the bell thing was just an example of you feeling okay to be able to lose the game if you're wrong on a read and

i can't relate to that

for me the bad brains in that aspect is more about wrongly scumreading someone

if someone plays a scumgame that is done well and is miles out of their previous range and fools me then im more likely to be impressed than feel awful

but i will feel awful if i suspect someone and push for their flip and end up being wrong on it

this isn't really game relevant i guess, just responding

[fireisredsir]

oh i actually forgot about the taly and notscience picking the same number thing lol

[fireisredsir]

1-shot watcher also green right

[fireisredsir]

5 5 6 is probably not a believable draft right

can we rule out notsci/ydra

[fireisredsir]

Greyice kill was weird as fuck

agreed

[fireisredsir]

i think there's at least 2 other possible reasons

[fireisredsir]

NOT LET MY WRONG AS FUCK HUSBAND RUN UP THE COP TO FORCE A CLAIM AND POSSIBLY GET HIM KILLED FOR IT

sorry can you clarify this im not following

are you saying you would let him run up dunn as scum, and in this game you stopped him, or what?

[fireisredsir]

possible reason 1 is that they wanted people to think he was killed bc scum dunn thought the guilty was real

possible reason 2 is that they wanted people to think LLD did it bc husband/she respects him a lot as a player/etc

i don't know if either of those are super good reasons but i think they're both better than thinking he was a cop who was hardpushing a fake result

[fireisredsir]

i don't see why scum would have known dunn was cop on d2

[fireisredsir]

where is that coming from

[fireisredsir]

i don't see why scum would have known dunn was cop on d2

not day 2, night 2. when they shoot GreyICE.

right?

Like if the argument is "they know GreyICE isn't cop, and somehow they kill Dunn the next day DESPITE his 0 hypo claim "i picked cop didn't get it" gambit

right?

that means they knew he was cop

And so they killed GreyICE anyway.

If they didn't know dunn was cop, then it makes more sense that they greyICE kill is a cop kill than any other argument i've seen.

except maybe the framing me one but that's.... i feel like that's arrogance to even think that

im still not seeing where them actually knowing dunn is cop is coming from? where did they get that knowledge and what makes you think they had it

are you saying nothing happened on day 3 that could have resulted in them having a better idea of who cop was? we literally got halfway through a massclaim, didn't we?

i feel like dunn was one of the most likely cop possibilities at that point

[fireisredsir]

im so confused what you're even trying to say

i agree with that!! if they knew dunn was cop n2 then why didn't they kill him?

[fireisredsir]

like you were just saying repeatedly that scum knew dunn was cop n2 and you were basing arguments off that

and i ask why you think that and where thats coming from

and now you yell at me that there's no way they could have known dunn was a cop n2

??

[fireisredsir]

i never made that argument though?? you were the one i saw making that argument

[fireisredsir]

NOT LET MY WRONG AS FUCK HUSBAND RUN UP THE COP TO FORCE A CLAIM AND POSSIBLY GET HIM KILLED FOR IT

sorry can you clarify this im not following

are you saying you would let him run up dunn as scum, and in this game you stopped him, or what?

i'm saying he claimed a guilty on dunn day 2

as scum, i never hesitate to join that wagon. he doesn't have to threaten me to join it. that was a literal thing that happened.

i let him drive that shit up, dunn claims cop, and then i vote him out THAT DAY based on him looking sketchy as shit for that.

and then I shoot dunn that ngiht and remove the chances that I'm ever investigated.

Like, here. Let's look at this for a second

why does LLD scum shoot someone she should know is not a cop

when I'm the one who is the single most likely to be investigated in the game. Period. I STILL dno't get why dunn had 0 hypo on day 3. It should have been an LLD Green check ffs.

this post you are literally making the case that you are not scum because you would not have killed greyice

and one of the core points you make relies on scum knowing that dunn was a cop d2

you did this in multiple posts and i was asking where that came from

[fireisredsir]

because you are basing other arguments on an unsupported point that as far as i can tell came out of nowhere

if it's just a trying to sort out which is which and argue both sides or whatever then why are you basing an argument for why you're town on one of the sides only

[fireisredsir]

can you explain where the idea came from for you that scum might have known dunn was a cop on d2 or n2? was it a post someone else made? i think that would help clarify

[fireisredsir]

from my view the idea originated from you

my whole goal in this back and forth has been trying to figure out where it came from

[fireisredsir]

like just answer that and then we're set

[fireisredsir]

i did have a couple luke/taly things to talk about but i got distracted

[fireisredsir]

I am having a hard time sorting Taly, just because every post she makes seems to either misunderstand the post that is directed at her, or she is responding to posts directed at other people. I am not sure how to sort constant misunderstandings tbh.

give me a break, i dont like texting for a reason

vicky

ok one of the things i saw was this. this might seem minor but i don't really think it is

luke didn't ever respond to this or acknowledge it

luke has difficulty not clarifying himself when he thinks he's been misunderstood, or if someone interprets a post he made in a more negative light than he intended. see: literally any game he's ever played

i don't think he ignores this post unless he knows that it's coming from scum and it's a fake interaction

[fireisredsir]

like just answer that and then we're set

maybe it did come from me? i took it from Notty's suspicion of my initial hypothesis. like

if he thinks it's so weird for GI to be a cop shot, then i want to 1) solve for all worlds and reasons because you're giving me reasons now and 2) explain why it feels rational to me

like in my mind, Notty is operating from a world where scum knew Dunn was cop, or else why would he be so vehemently against my theory

i don't really see how that logic follows from what he said

i think what he said makes sense as saying they knew greyice wasnt the most likely choice to be cop. but i think there were more options than just dunn on n2.

and if you think it's unlikely they knew dunn was cop then i agree with you. where i thought it was strange was where you seemed to be basing other things on that point

[fireisredsir]

He’s talking about Talys mis understanding not his own?

the point is that i think he would have done more to try to clear up taly's misunderstandings especially in that specific post

[fireisredsir]

like im expecting a

I'm not trying to criticize your engagement, I'm just trying to explain why it's difficult for me to discern your alignment. I didn't mean any offense. What's your read on x?

my luke voice needs work that was pretty bad

[fireisredsir]

my take is:

1) i don't think greyice would have been scum's top choice for who cop is. i think they would expect it to be pretty unlikely even if they think it's possible he was faking a result

2) if they knew who the cop was, they would shoot the cop

3) they had some better reason for shooting greyice than shooting in the pool of people who are more likely to be cops than greyice

[fireisredsir]

i don't know what the reason would be but i think it logically follows from 1 and 2 that it must exist

even if they think greyice is possibly cop he is certainly not the most likely. so there was some reason that pushed up the value of his kill

[fireisredsir]

i think it's just too hard for me to believe that scum thought he was the most likely cop option

my issue here is that your logic doesn't seem natural to me and it feels motivated to push for a conclusion that benefits you (if it's purely a cop shot, it can't be any of several other reasons, one of which would be your respect for/familiarity with him)

it's hard for me to see how you could give zero ground and insist it must be solely a cop searching shot and no other reason could have even played into it at all (this seems really unreasonable to me) unless you are intentionally trying to cut off other possibilities

which like. i guess you're motivated to do that as town too, you did say explicitly that you don't want the kill to be a reason to suspect me. but if you are twisting the logic as town to suit your needs then that is going to make it a lot harder for me to find you as town

if you're town and do genuinely believe your logic is sound, then sorry i guess? but that's hard for me to swallow

[fireisredsir]

i think especially because there's been at least 3 times already today where someone has said "can we rule this out as a possibility?" as a way of narrowing the pool of options and you say absolutely not anything is possible

and your attitude is so completely opposite and different when it comes to something that someone is suggesting could be a possible reason to suspect you. when it's that, nope that isn't possible at all it must be this specific way instead

that especially is what feels like an agenda

[fireisredsir]

i don't think i have or ever would criticize you for giving ground or exploring possible worlds

my confusion was over where your idea that you seemed to be pushing was coming from

[fireisredsir]

if you try to prove your innocence through logic that seems unreasonable to me and also seems counter to your approach when looking at other angles, then yes i will suspect you for that

[fireisredsir]

i haven't ruled out the other possibilities though? i gave several

[fireisredsir]

this world, apparently

[fireisredsir]

like i already said i fundamentally do not see how someone could believe that greyice was the MOST LIKELY to be cop at the point of n2

possible? ok sure

most likely? no

[fireisredsir]

im not beyond reproach at all im right in the middle of reproach-land

im stating what i believe to be most likely and supporting it with the reasons i have

i think that the belief that greyice was the most likely cop at the point of n2 is a frankly ridiculous one that needs some strong reasoning to support it, and that hasnt been provided

[fireisredsir]

like i already said i fundamentally do not see how someone could believe that greyice was the MOST LIKELY to be cop at the point of n2

possible? ok sure

most likely? no

okay but no other choice makes SENSE

NOT SHOOTING SOMEONE THAT CAN BE COP NIGHT 2 IS STICTLY WRONG FOR SCUM

shooting someone that can be cop yet isn't the most likely cop is an acceptable approach for scum

[fireisredsir]

like i think shooting greyice while not thinking he's most likely cop is maybe suboptimal? but they could do it if they had a reason they liked

same as drafting 5 5 6. is it suboptimal? absolutely. but you made sure to insist that scum could still do it if they had a reason they liked

[fireisredsir]

you specifically pushed back on me saying that other reasons could have contributed to them killing greyice

ive been saying the whole time that greyice is possibly in the cop pool but not the most likely one, and so therefore scum would need an additional reason to want to kill him

[fireisredsir]

ok sorry

[fireisredsir]

i guess i'm supposed to drop it to not make the game unbearable or something

i just hate being misunderstood when i think now at this point i may have been making the same fucking argument as Fire

i understand what you're saying now im just skeptical that it's what you meant all along because i don't really see that when reading your earlier posts

i don't think anything more that you say now can change what you said earlier though so it's done. i don't really plan to focus on it or anything, it isn't that significant of a point to me

i just had about 10x more energy than i usually do for whatever reason today and ik that i will not be capable of not just folding over in a similar situation under typical circumstances and i felt it was important not to do that here while i could

bc i think if you're scum you will outargue me 99 times out of 100

[fireisredsir]

i think it's just too hard for me to believe that scum thought he was the most likely cop option

my issue here is that your logic doesn't seem natural to me and it feels motivated to push for a conclusion that benefits you (if it's purely a cop shot, it can't be any of several other reasons, one of which would be your respect for/familiarity with him)

it's hard for me to see how you could give zero ground and insist it must be solely a cop searching shot and no other reason could have even played into it at all (this seems really unreasonable to me) unless you are intentionally trying to cut off other possibilities

which like. i guess you're motivated to do that as town too, you did say explicitly that you don't want the kill to be a reason to suspect me. but if you are twisting the logic as town to suit your needs then that is going to make it a lot harder for me to find you as town

if you're town and do genuinely believe your logic is sound, then sorry i guess? but that's hard for me to swallow

i think especially because there's been at least 3 times already today where someone has said "can we rule this out as a possibility?" as a way of narrowing the pool of options and you say absolutely not anything is possible

and your attitude is so completely opposite and different when it comes to something that someone is suggesting could be a possible reason to suspect you. when it's that, nope that isn't possible at all it must be this specific way instead

that especially is what feels like an agenda

@ydra this is the potentially alignment relevant bit from my pov

[fireisredsir]

bc i think if you're scum you will outargue me 99 times out of 100

and the other side obv is that i want to try to find you town if you are town

where if i just roll over and let you win whatever point you're trying to make i don't think i get any alignment info out of that and im just left wondering

[fireisredsir]

i assure you that this might be a reasonable take if i were neurotypical

but literally being unable to explain myself until i talk around the point 20 times and finally make others understand is a thing i struggle with and i suspect there will be players here who can confirm this for me but

i'll also just say like, regardless of my alignment i wouldn't use my ND nature to make this argument if it weren't true. I don't feel comfy doing that.

Like I can be scum here if you want to think that way, but I'm telling you as a player this is how I talk and act. I meant this the whole time, I was trying to sort of make this argument but struggling to articulate it.

Think I'm scum for all kinds of other reasons, but not for this. Please.

okay, acknowledged

[fireisredsir]

bc i think if you're scum you will outargue me 99 times out of 100

and the other side obv is that i want to try to find you town if you are town

where if i just roll over and let you win whatever point you're trying to make i don't think i get any alignment info out of that and im just left wondering

i'm not blaming you for trying to sort me

i'm just asking you to sort me based on shit that is actually alignment indicative

like the thing about shutting down other possible worlds is a fair cop. I think there's town motivation to do that, because I personally do not want to see townblocks form that don't both include me and include people I'm certain are town?

It makes me nervous?

But that at least is something reasonable.

The "didn't mean this the whole time thing" it's... yeah, just... no.

i would expect that there are times when you are scum that you do start an argument on one track and then pivot your way into a more acceptable position when called on it. i think that's something that scum do in general

but ill accept you saying that wasn't happening in this case

[fireisredsir]

i guess i have different approach in general

to me (>3p) elo is the time where the thread has the highest proportion of voices that you can't trust

and that makes going in solo with just your own thoughts against the thread super dangerous because you are opening yourself up to be manipulated

i like to approach the situation trying to find a town that i can lock in and trust and start to build around bc it grounds me and helps me not just get washed over by the scum voices on the thread

but that also might just be a difference in brains and be partly due to the fact that i am very influence-able lol especially if i feel im on my own

[fireisredsir]

we really should have thought of that before coming to elo smh

[fireisredsir]

ydra you think bell is possible/likely? i thought he looked really towny at the end of yesterday

[fireisredsir]

i thought it could be originally tbh but i support the conclusion

[fireisredsir]

ydra the reason i wanted to chat at start of day was to ask you who was town in ffery/notsci/lld

im guessing rn you would say lld?

[fireisredsir]

for interactions yea i think thats valid

the main places i want to look more are how people played around STD and marci lims

[fireisredsir]

my main difficulty with that personally is not really knowing what looks different when she's town. ive seen glimpses but don't have a good grasp of it

i guess i could try reading a game or two

[fireisredsir]

and yea i saw, thats what made me especially want to read that for context

[fireisredsir]

i am also somewhat hmm about the prevalence of the marci/ffery team theory and how that resulted in defaulting to just limming marci first

ik i didn't really argue against it either, and yea she wasn't really doing much, but still

[fireisredsir]

i had a similar thought yesterday about why are we defaulting to Marci first but the answer to that is very simple

Peta wanted Marci even before most of town had coalesced on Marci/Ffery. Suspecting Ffery was something I was the introducer of, I think, but Peta wanted Marci first and I don't even blame him.

eh i dunno about that. i can re-look but i had the sense peta was scumreading the ffery/luke slot for most of the game

[fireisredsir]

was greyice talking about watching football a watcher crumb

[fireisredsir]

that was 80% a joke

but he did say the word "watch" in 2 of his first 4 posts!

[fireisredsir]

Originally I wanted to compare kinda how any sort of side eye got immediately deterred by her and I feel like she’s been in this slot where she makes just thinking of voting her a bad thing

this was a big part of my original suspicion coming into the day fwiw

[fireisredsir]

so i don't really think it's actually something that has happened specifically in elo at all

[fireisredsir]

i agree you didn't really go aggressive until bell, but the aggression wasn't really my point. ill pull quotes/elaborate/look at that other game later but i don't think it's the same as hotd

[fireisredsir]

What don’t you like about where I’m at so I can address or is it just the unwnd slot thing

Ninja
Basically i went and was reading the Taly iso and want to do a dive based on where taly keeps scum buds bc the entire top tier is town but most of the people in the middle tiers are still alive

what did you come up with? Is it already in the thread?

Also I want your thoughts on LLD particularly under the lens of the out of left field push on her in Yggdrasil

And no I’m not trying to full case with meta but I think this could be important in gettin g to the bottom of it because I find the “no we aren’t ignoring this we are focusing on me first” thing she did there similar to the “we are not moving on until we resolve the cop thing” here

So the interaction between Bell and LLD did remind me of the Yggdrasil game, but I was more thinking about the emotional content, and the difference between confirmed town and near-universal townread doing the pushing.

Scum-LLD in that game started setting up an eventual push on morph on late day 1, and had the rug jerked out at the start of day 3, and that affected her approach during the big blowup about her readslist.

Do you feel like there was something similar going on here wrt Bell?

i think it's a little strange to call bell a near-universal townread given the context that the argument happened like directly after me and ydra and peta were talking about if bell was maybe scum and it kinda felt at the time at least that we were mostly leaning towards yes

unless im misinterpreting? i haven't read much of yggdrasil

[fireisredsir]

I don’t think scum Luke stops by the thread to try and save town marci.

i really think he probably would

this is not a list where scum can just sit on their hands and let stuff happen he needs to plan ahead for lategame and take action that will look good for later

and plus she was first draft pick. i feel like the chances of her getting limmed there were always going to be low once she claimed

[fireisredsir]

3/6 players (not including LLD or bell) leaning scum on a slot doesn't feel like near-universal to me but eh

i dunno maybe it isn't significant but it feels like a weird thing to mis-judge the thread state as far as how the consensus is reading bell when also seeming to be basing a read on the situation on that assessment of the consensus

[fireisredsir]

Never mind the comparison is absurd.

I want to note something though. Please forgive me for how behind and stupid I am.
Marci tracked fire twice and the only scum we’ve seen so far is a thug. If scum were low on the priority list and drafted wrong what are the odds that Red stayed home twice?

we've flipped every row besides the top two rows, which are: night 3 vig, vengeful, 1-shot vig, and 2-shot activated pgo

so those are the only roles scum could have. the only ones that visit anybody are the vigs, which we know didn't happen

so the roles aren't very relevant to the odds

[fireisredsir]

they could also still have the vig shot

[fireisredsir]

that would have taken us to 5

[fireisredsir]

sorry, maybe tomorrow

[fireisredsir]

hi i can play for a bit

[fireisredsir]

i dunno i think its pretty believable that notscience is where he is right now

like the way he's viewing the game and how he got there makes sense to me. doesn't feel like agenda i don't think

[fireisredsir]

bell getting so hardstuck on the notscience calling taly boring thing is kinda hard for me to look past though

i guess i still think he's town but oof

[fireisredsir]

eh nvm thats probably in character

[fireisredsir]

having a hard time seeing any of bell/notsci/ydra as scum at this point

[fireisredsir]

looked over the pivot onto std and i think scum absolutely jumped on the opportunity provided by unwnd really wanting that lim

like peta, dunn and bell were pushing firebringer. rh9 was extremely caught out. it seemed like that should be the lim and it still feels that way reading the day again. i think page 114 is just town all wanting to kill firebringer and then... it doesn't happen?

(side note, ffery saying she wanted to double vote for peta in 2755 and then being very to follow him onto the person he really wants to kill, firebringer, and never actually voting there, but being really quick to drop an e-1 onto std after peta gives in and votes there later... don't like that)

anyway, then there was the brief drunk unwnd adventure where he wanted a ydra lim and LLD and firebringer followed. ffery was kinda present at the time but not really engaging with the idea

that died off pretty quickly and peta comes back like "ok that was dumb let's kill firebringer" in 2956

notscience saying he wanted firebringer flipped in a kind of "well this is what we're defaulting to, right?" way in 3041 feels uninformed to me and like he's seeing the game from the same pov im seeing it from. ffery responds with agreement but despite that pokes around about std with 3049, 3051.

then unwnd is clearly on the fence between firebringer and std, wanting std but thinking that firebringer is what is happening, with 3067. firebringer gets pushed to e-2 by std

and right then is when LLD swoops in with the "nope we're killing std, bop me"

bell, peta and dunn immediately are like "ok sure".

notscience and ffery are present and supportive but don't vote right away. LLD convinces ffery, ffery votes, firebringer hammers

[fireisredsir]

anyway thats mostly just summary of events

is it possible that scum were also taking advantage of town LLD's strong push? maybe, yea. the timing is just so perfect though it's really hard for me to ignore that. it reminds me of Turing test, where ari's scum team really needed a townflip and she just turned on the jets at the perfect time to hardshove a case and get people on board to get the flip she needed

and in endgame when i was deciding if it could be her i did notice how perfect that timing was but she had too much townposting for me to make the call. its hard for me to give the benefit of the doubt again in what looks like a very similar scenario here

bell's quick jump bothers me less i guess because he was actively pushing hard for firebringer. i think scum tend to be more worried about flipping in a moment and dropping their bus to push out a towny bc they know how bad it looks

notscience actually looks worse in that regard to me, bc he did want firebringer yeet and then (as dunn called out) he expressed passing support for std but didn't vote there. my gut still reads the overall as uninformed but i don't think it's that clean

ffery is hard to see as town for me. whether it's town LLD or scum LLD she let herself get convinced onto a flashwagon when she and previously been making excuses for why she didn't want to end the day yet when it was on firebringer

[fireisredsir]

VOTE: STD

K.
Hopefully this hits scum.

i do kinda hate this post but whatever

[fireisredsir]

To me your content seems kinda similar to Not Quite Normal I, but without the swagger. Which may be a narrow perspective on my part.

------------

My virtual vote is on Firebringer. I can't quite force myself to put the vote down when he hasn't had a chance to dig in and produce something readable. It's going to take amazing towniness to change my thoughts about the slot writ large.

But as much as it's off the cuff for you you have a presence that leads people to take your statements with a lot of authority.

So... I felt it best to inject a little clarity onto it.

lol nothing i say this game is getting taken with authority but i appreciate the reality check

Ha! No reality check for you! I've been considering making you a double voter.

I'm not going to be around much, if any, until tonight, and you may get ffery-under-the-influence then.

notsci, not really expecting to see much of you today because handegg. The topic I want to discuss is Dunn and his reaction to GreyICE's guilty seen through the lens of the Isekai track guilty. The interactions started here.

LLD was in this game too, and may have thoughts. though I'm not sure this is a data channel that she really uses.

I'm going to hold off voting because I still want to have that convo with notsci.

I'm kinda ready to end this day, but I'd like for unwnd to come back and talk about his ydrasse read.

Joining this game has made me realize that I really don't know how to read ydra. think I must scumread her when she's bubbly, snarky and maybe when her energy bounces between high and low a lot. And these are all post facto stuff from the few games I've played with her and a couple I spectated.

Notsci, I am, yeah. Where are you at?

crosspost hell let me post

We're kind of short on dragons atm.

But what I really want is StD's head on a pike but I'd also feel bad cause I think he fits in that 'uncomfortable' state

Which gives me pause.

Marci also fits there which..also gives me pause. She has some moments I wanna townread because I'm a giving idiot and I think 'yeah I get her emotional state here' but actual posts I'm not feeling it. I think part of me is also like 'man if I went against my gut and Marci/Ydra were town for those tonal/emotional pings then fuck'

Not fun to deal with!

Where does STD fit in?

I'm back for a while with a fried brain and hard boiled eyes. No substances were involved in the post.

notsci I feel like you've lost your mojo the last few calendar days. Wanna talk?

I'll have a look at Gnosia. After coffee.

I went through STD's ISO in that game, don't really have time to read it in depth. he's been more readsy in this game than that one, and he was more setup-y in gnosia (despite saying he's not good at setup). I can see reasons why his play would be a little different here regardless -- ceph and getting into a swirl with Dunnstral.

LLD what do you mean by he's actively curating and controlling?

Yeah. I have STD below Dunn. I'd like to put more time into reading gnosia but it's not going to happen today.

Thanks!

VOTE: STD

E-1

i want a claim

i dunno i just think the repeated stalling on ending the day and finding new projects to work on (i think peta said something similar when expressing a read on ffery and i agree with it) only to immediately allow herself to be convinced on std is really hard for me to make excuses for

[fireisredsir]

and ydra having read through things again i would put money on the ffery/notscience interactions feeling weird bc if she is scum she has been spending most of the game trying to pocket him

i don't think it looks s/s at all to me

[fireisredsir]

i think she's probably still doing it bc she sees that as her wincon. doesn't really matter if everyone else can see it happening as long as notscience ends up voting town at some point

[fireisredsir]

Would FF and LLD be that uncoordinated.

What I’m about to say has bit me in the ass before, but wouldn’t FF recognize that their vote was largely unneeded. Essentially why am I being excused for flipping on a dime, but not FF.

if ffery had been voting firebringer at any point, i think he would have died that day and things never would have shifted to std. you were voting firebringer. to me that's part of the difference. the other difference is that yours i think better reflects the mentality that you had, whereas hers seems out of place

i don't think i can take away any strong conclusions from what happened tbh bc multiple town scumsided hard there, but i wanted to look at it and thats what i saw

[fireisredsir]

Fire’s pool is pretty narrow.
He’s announcing that it’s FF/LLD,
And if one of those is false it’s him with FF/LLD.

thats what i see right now

its more that if one of those are town then i do not know who of the other 3 i am misreading

[fireisredsir]

ydra can you do a combined iso of notsci/ffery from the time she replaced in and read through that and then let me know if you still think that's a partner dynamic and not a pocketing one

[fireisredsir]

im sorry i have some stuff going on and its making it hard to find time/mental energy for this. will try to just throw out some thoughts/answers until i fall asleep again

[fireisredsir]

also i rechecked and the way taly spoke about ydrasse is clearing for ydrasse but i'm not going to elaborate, you're just gonna have to trust on that and you can blame me if it's wrong

@notsci i will be honest i am giving a not insignificant amount of weight to this

maybe it's bc it's easier to just take the offer of blaming him if wrong when its presented so generously lmao.

[fireisredsir]

i think scum ydra really doesn't have to run interference on me/LLD and call it possibly tvt

unless she's partners with LLD which i think is where your brain is mostly at rn so maybe that point is meaningless to you

[fireisredsir]

if it is actually LLD/ffery, it feels extremely to me like the plan is that you are being set up from both angles to be the losing vote in 4p (or 3p if there's a vig?) here, honestly

probably onto ydra

so it's probably on me to convince you otherwise but i don't really know how to

she doesn't read agenda'd or informed to me. she doesn't read like she's playing to win the game. unless ffery is town i guess, then she probably wins ah fuck this is once again the scenario that you're worried about okay this probably isn't helping

[fireisredsir]

@LLD i understand what you want and i really think that if you're town the most useful thing you can do right now to show yourself and win is find me a scum besides ffery

im not going to disregard things you say just bc i think you're more likely scum i will read them and genuinely consider it

but i don't think that you primarily focusing on just getting people to think that you're town is going to do the trick for me bc there isn't anything about that which you wouldn't be doing as scum

[fireisredsir]

also i don't really want to lim you over ffery im not sure where you got that idea

[fireisredsir]

on ydra again i just played with her scum in a dance game and danced with her specifically to not allow her to endgame bc i thought she was scum

it really just doesn't feel like she's playing the same game here. its true the energy wasn't exuberant early but she wasn't trying to fake or force it either. and beneath that her focus has primarily been on watching the game and solving the game and not on pushing it in a direction that's good for the scumteam

i also saw her as town recently in large normal 241 and she is hitting a lot of the same notes. the annoyance about just wanting to lim firebringer and not give him any chances feels the same as when she wanted to lim HEM in that game who fakeclaimed vig to stall. the approach in general feels similar too, except a bit more engaged with things due to smaller game

i don't think her reactions to pressure feel like scum either. nothing really feels designed to make people back off or see her as town

and im pretty sure scum have wanted to get her elimmed for most of the game and it's still probably their planned escape route tomorrow

[fireisredsir]

more later but briefly my point wasn't really that you should be hunting scum for the purposes of "earning my townread", thats not really what im saying?

my point was that i think your focus on earning townreads and etc is sort of muddying things and making it harder to get a read on your activity today because it's self-focused in a way that could be easily duplicated if you're scum or if you're town bc the motivations are exactly the same

not unlike what you're saying about me here which is probably accurate

like you say that it's something you want to do anyway. all im saying is that i want to see it and don't want you to get distracted and spend your time with towncasing yourself or whatever because i think it will be less useful

it feels like you want me to lay out exactly what you need to do in order for me to townread you so that you can do it and like... you see the issue there, right? thats not what i want your motivation to be. scum and town both want to be found as town. but scum want to yeet townies and town want to find scum. focusing on the former makes the two hard to tell apart. focusing on the latter has more of a chance at being divergent

[fireisredsir]

but yea regardless i too would like for me to put more into showing where my thoughts coming from on some things when im able to do so

[fireisredsir]

whats up with the writing off of bell completely

[fireisredsir]

Look.

I came into today re-evaluating but let me put to you where my reads were prior to today

FireRed(Unwnd slot)
Ydra
Notty-Bell
Ffery
Marci

but now Marci is town, so I have to re-evaluate.

But my bias wants me to say it's Notty-Ffery. That enough people read bell correctly for that to be right, and that my initial reads on Unwnd and Ydra are correct.

Truthfully though, if there's one read I'm not wanting to toss it's Unwnd town.

I have had Unwnd as my #1 town read the WHOLE GAME.

so instead of going "well I am willing to risk my game on Unwnd town here!" which frankly is how i felt the rest of this game

i feel i need to do my due dilligence and leave everyone open to consideration and prevent people from being taken off the block as possible wagons/scum for today because it's dangerous to do that in ELO.

like, i'm here today to kill Ffery and then ffery's partner. and the only person that's definitely not for me is Bell.

because today's interactions are a lot of hocum. if i get eliminated, scum win and that's the path we're on and oh look suspiciously quiet

but if ffery goes down, and i'm going to talk assuming she's scum, there is a lot of anti-spew all over the place from that slot and frmo others towards her.

and to me personally it feels like every slot in the game scumreads ffery, but i'm the one slated to die, and whether that's Notty pushing me as Ffery's partner, or Fire/Ydra letting it happen as Ffery's partner I'm not quite sure yet.

But that's where I'm standing.

im not sure how this happened beyond the obvious scum explanation being that you know you don't have to sort or deal with bell because your issue is only with the people who are going to elo tomorrow and you know you're killing bell

to be clear i don't care if you're re-evaling me despite coming in with a strong townread on my slot. thats fine, that isn't the issue here

whats weird is the "i don't want anyone taken off the table, im going to evaluate everyone" and hard pushing back against me saying i wanted to take bell off the table

and then just at a certain point dropping that pretense and ignoring him completely

while at the same time saying that you need me to do all of these things for you to be sure that im town. but bell doesn't have to... because?

[fireisredsir]

i would be interested to know why you're feeling anxious terror

but only as a game way to read me huh?

fine

I'm someone for whom letting people down and being seen as less competent than I really am is a huge pain for me. I have a good chunk of bad brains about it.

And I'm looking at this game and it felt so simple when it was Marci/Ffery.

and now I'm concerned people are gonna go "well, LLD exists in ELO, we gotta kill her" and that would lose us the game and it's the worst way for me to lose everyone the game and it's like.

If you're town and Bell's scum you're so closed off "if he's scum I lose"

and it's wonderful you're able to have that confidence and be okay losing? i'm not?

and i just know people are going to tap into that paranoia they've been doing it all game and i

i don't want to be wrong, and i really don't want to be the losing miselimination when i had all the control in the world on day 2 and got it wrong.

Essentially i'm in a state of exiestential dread that i am resetting my reads back to 0 when i need to be confident to fight this out?

it sounds like you are now saying that you are accepting that you lose if bell is scum because nobody else is willing to vote him

dead townies townread bell at the start of day but your position now is different from the start of day. what changed.

[fireisredsir]

im sure she does but i don't really think that satisfies the issue for me

[fireisredsir]

my point isn't really about how you feel about bell or his playstyle

its about how you were handling him differently at the start of the day and saying you wanted to consider everyone possible scum and had him in the middle of your reads on the same line as notscience

and then you stopped considering him at all at some point in there and i still don't know why that switch happened

[fireisredsir]

no fuck that lmao it is not

[fireisredsir]

notscience's response and the thing that you're saying is NAI isn't at all related to my point

it is NAI sure

thats not what im talking about

[fireisredsir]

cool glad to know i wrote all my thoughts for nothing

[fireisredsir]

Like your whole argument is "these two pieces dont fit together" and when I show you how they do you move the goalposts and say "no i meant this" so when I show you how that isn't realistic either you go "well i don't know if you meant that the whole time or you invented it" and then I give a sitcom look to the camera and die a little inside.

i don't really get why im not allowed to question an inconsistency (or at the very least an unexplained/unsupported shift) in your approach and try to understand why that happened when to me it seems like a shift that makes more sense as a path towards accomplishing scum goals/priorities than one that fits town goals/priorities

im not really sure how to function here to be honest

[fireisredsir]

to expand though does anyone think that fire could have pocketed me? they’ve spent a lot of time invested in defending their townread on me and i wanna make sure i’m not kind of nodding along going hmmm yes this is correct and smiling at that and the draft number and the slot ancestor because i don’t feel like i am wrong but i don’t actually think i’ve ever been this ambivalent with my solve in a game before

this is a little weird to me bc i would kinda expect town you to be more confident in your own ability to not get pocketed by me/tell if I'm pocketing you than an appeal to others

i guess some of that mindset was in dance game when you were scum so idk maybe that didn't actually reflect how you feel

[fireisredsir]

i probably should not be posting rn tbh back later i guess

[fireisredsir]

sorry

[fireisredsir]

not voting but wanting to lim here etc

[fireisredsir]

oh its almost deadline

ill vote in the morning ig idk does waiting matter

[fireisredsir]

VOTE: ffery

actually i can't think of any reason not to and there's several reasons why it might be bad not to

[fireisredsir]

i still have a hard time seeing ffery's interactions with notscience as anything other than intended to be pockety

[fireisredsir]

reread luke overnight and also didn't feel like it was notscience here

[fireisredsir]

imo pages like 22-27 or so are recommended reading

not related to previous points i just think they're significant to the game

[fireisredsir]

I have a problem... I have caught up, and I did not find a scum read :/

Trendy choices seem to be Notty and Taly.

I kinda think Notty is town? I liked that he appeared to stop and do some meta skims when he saw something that pinged him. It was well telegraphed too, like he voted in 82, made a comment about meta diving in 109, then largely disappeared from the thread for ~20 mins, before coming back with a new take on Taly in 122. That 20 min thread break would be an impressive touch if faked.

I am having a hard time sorting Taly, just because every post she makes seems to either misunderstand the post that is directed at her, or she is responding to posts directed at other people. I am not sure how to sort constant misunderstandings tbh.

I would request LLD and/or Peta to solve the game for me please.

@Peta, why are you voting Dunn?

i am not really convinced that luke is the breed of cheeky/brazen scum player who makes this post about 2 partners

[fireisredsir]

the whole way he went about the point about notscience doing meta on taly feels very assured and there's no hint of awkward theatre vibes that I think do show up when he is talking with taly

it feels like there's undertones of him knowing his point is correct

[fireisredsir]

not just in the quoted post but the way he argued the point throughout as people questioned him on it

[fireisredsir]

i agree with ydra's point as well that notscience has felt uninformed and without a plan all game

[fireisredsir]

I have a problem... I have caught up, and I did not find a scum read :/

Trendy choices seem to be Notty and Taly.

I kinda think Notty is town? I liked that he appeared to stop and do some meta skims when he saw something that pinged him. It was well telegraphed too, like he voted in 82, made a comment about meta diving in 109, then largely disappeared from the thread for ~20 mins, before coming back with a new take on Taly in 122. That 20 min thread break would be an impressive touch if faked.

I am having a hard time sorting Taly, just because every post she makes seems to either misunderstand the post that is directed at her, or she is responding to posts directed at other people. I am not sure how to sort constant misunderstandings tbh.

I would request LLD and/or Peta to solve the game for me please.

@Peta, why are you voting Dunn?

i am not really convinced that luke is the breed of cheeky/brazen scum player who makes this post about 2 partners

Why not? He's pitching to Peta and I, taking heat on himself.. it all fits.

just from having seen luke play scum before i don't feel like he's that kind of player

this kind of thing isn't really playing to his strengths, and i think he would be too concerned about making his own long-term prospects good than to just straight out of the gate push back on reads on his two scum partners like this

like i think it's more likely he would be doing it for the future wifom of looking uninformed than for directly trying to influence the thread to not scumread them. and while that's possible, i don't really think he would go for that either

[fireisredsir]

I recognize I'm like, 8 ways from fucked but Notty literally got to set this all up by just acting town and sitting behind.

He didn't have to look agentful we did it for him. it's.... ahh...

I can see how this ends. It'll be with a vote that says something like "if Notty fooled me he deserves to win" and yeah, maybe he does deserve this win but we have a chance right now to earn ourselves a win

ahhhh

i hate being up against it all. i don't know how to win this for us.

not exactly, id be more likely to say well played to ffery and luke for their approach to him

i don't think notscience's play on its own here is ever something i would be impressed by it fooling me

[fireisredsir]

i think the only person whose reads ive taken into account this game besides my own was peta. but that was mostly bc as i was reading i found he was pointing out the same things i was seeing and so i trusted his pov and also already agreed with like 80% of it

which is somewhat unusual for me tbh im generally more of a sheep

i guess a little bit of unwnd too since i know his alignment but idk if that counts

regardless, i don't really think notscience has convinced me of anything

[fireisredsir]

what makes you so confident on ydra?

[fireisredsir]

i agree with that on the whole fwiw

i thought i was p likely to die if you were scum