Open 205 - Medical Mafia - Game Over Too Soon?
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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and will the roles become known after a kill/lynch?
First idea I have is to have the night actions in a "circle", everybody using their action, thereby having 2 random kills, (quack and CPR) and a lynch, giving randomly the chance we win the game night 2:
2/9 * 1/7+2/9 * 6/7 * 1/7 + 7/9 * 2/7 * 1/7 is about: 70/450 = 1/6.5
There is also a small chance we lose, which is much smaller (estimated just below 2%), further the game has to be won with scumhunting and using the strong firepower the town has, together with a nurse claim (don't really know when that has to be).Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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Where did I say mafia couldn't kill? And where do you promis that we won't have 3 dead doctor anyway? And mykonian already knew that scum have to be next to each other in the circle, and that they should be "forced" to kill another scummy player.Mindgamer wrote:Good luck / Have fun everyone.
Very interesting setup.
Well, it seems like our night strategy will be more important than our day discussion.
And that's why I'm calling Mykonian scum right now. His 'Great Plan' of doing the Night Actions in a circle pattern leads to an easy Mafia win.
We have nine players, player A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I. Let's say A and B are scum. Let's say the random circle will be E -> C -> A -> H -> I -> B -> F-> G -> D -> E.
The mafia know who the mafia and town are, so the doctors who will be 'protected' by the mafia won't be protected at all, so one of them will be killed by the mafia. The mafia now have a sure kill instead of a maybe kill. Additionally, the CPR Doctor and Quack Doctor will certainly kill because there are no other doctors protecting their victims. So, the next day we have three dead doctors. What a great strategy.
It's not flawless though. The CPR Doctor and the Quack Doctor can target the mafia so there's a chance both mafia will be killed by them. How to prevent this? By making sure that one of the mafia 'protects' the other mafia, so at least one of them will live. This requires that the circle is not random though, and this is where Mykonian's last post comes in, he requests in bold that he himself should make the circle. Mykonian wants to claim the circle so he can manipulate it.
Vote: Mykonian
For his mafia plan. Oh, and he's also trying to stop any discussion by suggesting that 'we better lynch right today'. Can he get any more scummy?
Mykonian would rather have a towny choosing this circle, since then he is certain such a circle gets formed. From Mykonians point of view, there are only 2 people that are confirmed town: he, and the nurse. But mykonian doubts it is a good idea to let the nurse claim.
And what is that last thing? how am I stopping discussion when I'm starting it?
@Looker, I don't vote pregame.
@ all the bolded: why?SaintKerrigan wrote:
Why XScorpion in particular?Looker wrote:Especially you, XScorpion
I disagree with Mykonian's plan.There is a much better chance of scum winning with this plan than town;it's far more likely that the doctor kills will land on innocents, and it gives the mafia a clean nightkill.His proposal to set up the circle himself is also suspect.
However, the plan may not be all that great, but I'm not sure that he's scum simply for suggesting it. It's too bold a move, and I don't think scum would want to go and suggest a plan like that.
And for you people thinking there is a better strategy. There might be one. But I know that one is good for town, and that is not using night-powers. We have the choice, do that, or use "random" actions, since we don't know what we are doing.
The best thing about the circle, is that we will know what will happen next.
Some people said the kills in the circle were random. This is correct. That means they more likely hit a towny then scum. But scumkills never hit scum. This way you have 2 more way's to hit scum.
and why is it suspect to propose to make that circle yourself? Because town wants control so scum won't manipulate it?
We aren't going to be friends. This is horrible reasoning (he is so towny he must be scum).XScorpion wrote:Why me? Because Lookerscum defeated my town last game
I've seen scum suggest plans like that before and been defended by "I don't think scum would want to go and suggest a plan like that." I'm not buying it again.
Vote: Mykonianvote Xscorpion. Because you avoid all discussion about why the plan is actually scummy, and just go with general consensus and conspiracy thinking.
OMG there are people thatXScorpion wrote:The first I remember was when someone suggested a follow-the-cop strategy, although it didn't go through because there ended up being no cop...it seemed like rolefishing to me anyway.
I guess you could just say I'm wary about the last game where a scum started the game by killing the RVS (I like RVS) and asking a bunch of role-fishing questions.
Obviously rolefishing is kind of pointless here, but I'm still wary of people with those 'innovative' ideas that kill my beloved RVS.think. Now, why are you excusing yourself for something that seems wrong, but you just can´t help it?
I wished I was a doublevoterSurrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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because it isn't...XScorpion wrote:
Because the reasons behind why your plan is horrible have already been given. Mindgamer said it best: assuming you are scum, your plan was to construct the circle yourself, organize it so that scum will be next to each other, then watch as 3 doctors get killed tonight.Mykonian wrote:Because you avoid all discussion about why the plan is actually scummy, and just go with general consensus and conspiracy thinking.
If "not using night powers" was such a good strategy, why didn't you suggest it first?
ever seen a 7-2 mountainous game? no, because that is horrible for town, scum wins 90%. So we have to use the powerroles someway.
In your post, you say you can't help your vote, because you had such a bad experience with scum in a recent game. Why that excuse?I don't understand what this means:Mykonian wrote:Now, why are you excusing yourself for something that seems wrong, but you just can´t help it?
[/quote]xscorpion wrote:On a side note, I don't think I've heard anything scummier than this yet:
This just screams scum to me.Mykonian wrote:Well, it seems like our night strategy will be more important than our day discussion.Sadly, this is mindgamers quote, and even then it is completely out of context, since it was a joke of his. Are you manipulating, dear scorpion?[/quote]Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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yes, well that part annoyed me. Everyone can show bad points. However, it is to be asked if they can be improved. In a few minutes, I'll give that a try, but it is so easy to discredit someone who takes initiative this way.DiscoRoboto wrote:That'sirrelevent, he obviously didn't suggest a plan, but we don't have to divert attention to that right now.
and who tells me you aren't scum? I have the mod telling me I'm town, and I rather don't let scum manipulate this.Well,we all know that of ourselves. Why you? Scroll down to see a suggestion.
Because you aren't cleared town in our eyes.myko wrote:and why is it suspect to propose to make that circle yourself? Because town wants control so scum won't manipulate it?
The problem with a "townie-vote" is that it makes scum's job easy, and we don't yet know if we are going to protect that person.Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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Starting point of my thinking:Light wrote:look, i believe that some of myko's strat is relevant, however it is somewhat flawed.
we definitely need a testing strat to test our doctor skills. I'd do the circle strat only if everyone else agrees to it, otherwise we could do a 'better variation of the idea'.
we have 2 killing roles (CPR-Quack)
2 protective (JK-Doc)
1 investigative (weak doc)
Blocking is not that usefull to us yet (gets important closer to lylo, or when only 1 scum is left)
ok, myko strat v2:
We pick a group of minimal 3 players, and let them circle. We pick the scummy players for this. In case there is a CPR or Quack among them, one scummy player is gone now. Sadly, the same counts for the weak doc: the investigation is practically wasted. The rest of the players does nothing.
myko strat v3: we pick 3 players who are targets, we pick 3 other players who are going to target: same effect, if one of the targeting (townie) players is a CPR or Quack, we lost a scummy player. Benefit is that the weak doc's investigation (hard to find because of the scums kill, perhaps), is not completely wasted. The JK is not a problem here.
Both strategies limit the nightkills, and focus nightkills on scummy looking townies, making scumhunting easier later. That should fix most of the problems, right?Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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Mindgamer wrote:
You failed to mention they could kill.mykonian wrote:Where did I say mafia couldn't kill?SERIOUSLY?you didn't even have doubts when you posted this?
Why are you not doing anything of yourself?
Huh? I haven't even suggested a strategy of my own yet. What is this for kind of question?And where do you promis that we won't have 3 dead doctor anyway?
Lets see this objectively: people sticking their necks out, people proposing things, in stead of following are town. Scorp thinks I do this to manipulate = too towny principle. "He is so obviously sticking his neck out, it must have some purpose"
And here we have another Strawman argument. XScorpion attacks the 'he is so scummy he must be town' reasoning. This does not mean that he thinks the opposite.XScorpion wrote:Why me? Because Lookerscum defeated my town last game
I've seen scum suggest plans like that before and been defended by "I don't think scum would want to go and suggest a plan like that." I'm not buying it again.
We aren't going to be friends. This is horrible reasoning (he is so towny he must be scum).Vote: Mykonianvote Xscorpion. Because you avoid all discussion about why the plan is actually scummy, and just go with general consensus and conspiracy thinking.
From what I can see, XScorpion seems to favour the 'he is so scummy he must be scum' theory, the only theory based on actual logic.
Very simple: I am trying to convince you of something, that must mean I'm scum, right? I must be manipulating you.There is no general consensus. General consensus is the situation where EVERYONE agrees on a certain topic. Please elaborate on your 'conspiracy thinking' statement.
And in the end, you only lynch the person that stands out, not the scummo's,who generally don't want to stand out. Which is why tells as bandwagoning work. You are this way stalling the coming of new ideas, since you consider someone that thinks of a new idea and tries to convince you, scum. Good luck ever trying to become better.
This is because scum is still scared of powerroles: the setups here and there aren't equal.
Eh, yes? It's one of the four setups in Newbie games. According to AGar's analysis, scum wins that setup 64% of the time. Where did you get the 90% number from?ever seen a 7-2 mountainous game? no, because that is horrible for town, scum wins 90%. So we have to use the powerroles someway.
Though with the nurse, 90% is certainly too much.
Even then 36% is not enough for me. Playing with 1 confirmed vig, and 1 confirmed doc would make me much more happy.
As a matter of fact I do have an idea: We stop discussing the night and every individual does what they think is best, be it random or a strategy of their own. Here's why:I'm growing sick of these plans. These plans have the EXACT SAME FLAWS your earlier plan had.
1. The scum know who the doctors are going to target, so the scum get a 100% sure kill.SOLVE IT. THEY HAVE THAT ANYWAY, OR YOUR PROTECTION IS ACCIDENTALLY A QUACK, AND YOU KILL HIM
2. After the night, we still don't know anything about the doctors due to the scum interference. If a doctor dies, do you call him a weak doctor? Who says the scum can't target a doctor-target to further complicate things? At the beginning of the next day, only the scum know every night action, and so only the scum can draw conclusions. The scum now have a few roles confirmed where the town is still in doubt. Yay?this is why strat 2 is better: the targeting and target players are both scummy, making that any complications (scumkills/weak doc) are on people we want dead anyway.
we have 2 roles that kill, 3 that save(with one of them the weak doctor) BRILLIANT PLAN. Suddenly a quack "protects" a confirmed towny: what now, GENIUS?At this moment we have only one true advantage over the scum: We have so many protective roles that there is a high chance their night kill will fail. A failed scum kill is very valuable for the town. If the scum don't know what we are going to do, they can't act in accordance with it.Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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Does it become better when we put 3 scummy (lurking) people in a circle targeting each other, thereby having the kills among the people we want gone anyway, and minimizing the negative effects?SaintKerrigan wrote:@ Mykonian:
Think about it. The scum have a guaranteed nightkill with the original circle plan by killing off one of the people they're supposed to be "protecting." The only way town gets a night scumkill is through one of our two killing roles getting lined up one at least one of the scum. The odds of both of our killing roles hitting both scum is nigh impossible. The odds of hitting just one isn't that much likelier. The odds of killing off an innocent are good. Meanwhile, the scum have a guaranteed nightkill. This is why I disagree with your plan.SaintKerrigan wrote:There is a much better chance of scum winning with this plan than town; it's far more likely that the doctor kills will land on innocents
Yeah, I'm a bit more calm now:Meanwhile, there's XScorpion.
Unvote: Looker. Vote: XScorpion.
You first simply call Mykonian's plan scummy without explaining why, and when quizzed about it you give an absolutely horrendous WIFOM reason. Then you misrepresent Mykonian by attributing a quote to him that was actually from Mindgamer. Right now, you're looking very scummy to me.XScorpionI quoted mindgamer: why did this sentence end up under my name, and why don't you vote mindgamer for this ( I know you won't, I just want to hear from you, why)Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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I haven't seen him earlier, so I don't think there was malicious intent, since by attacking me he could easily have posted.
About Xscorpion, I have seen him play, and I see his quote mistake as deliberate. I have read the game you two played in, so I know a bit how he plays, and my vote is on someone who looks scummy anyway.
However, in that game, nowhere he used manipulation to make a case, which he clearly did here by quoting mindgamer and calling it mine.
Since he would have to copy paste, change the name to mykonian, and add it to the case already there, I am pretty sure this wasdeliberate
And the above: that is not playstyle, that is intelligence, mostly. You have made that choice conciously, which is ok, but they clearly didn't.Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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Are you stupid or are you scum? OBVIOUSLY we lynch scummos. That is why IIRC, scum wins most of the games here.Mindgamer wrote:
In the end you lynch the scummo's obviously. Are you joking here?mykonian wrote:And in the end, you only lynch the person that stands out, not the scummo's,who generally don't want to stand out. Which is why tells as bandwagoning work.
Bandwagons are used for pressure btw.
Why would that be? Because a lot players have no idea what makes someone scum. We have sadly a rather big concentration of people who are policy lynching through the game. So, if you want to try, please, lynch me.
Lets see if you hit scum. Because OBVIOUSLY, you will. Because you are lynching the person that stands out.Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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mindgamer, you have to make a better strategy to call mine bad.
Further, a conspiracy is not based on facts, but on the feeling people are fooling you.
The nurse could become a confirmed towny (it would be very ineffective for scum to counterclaim.) But, as long as we don't know who our protective roles are, there is no use in letting the nurse claim. You really haven't read the setup, have you?Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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uhm, 2 things people. First, the bolded: if you are going to think I have bad intentions anyway, then there is little reason to wait for what I post, you are going to think anyway that I'm scum for it. The bolded shows tunneling: you expect me to be scum.XScorpion wrote:
Becausemykonian wrote:why did this sentence end up under my name, and why don't you vote mindgamer for this ( I know you won't, I just want to hear from you, why)
1) I wasn't paying attention
2) Because coming from him, it's not serious.Whereas it seems kind of like the thing you would say and mean it.I still don't like how you are putting so much emphasis on night actions and very little during the day on who is scum and why we should vote them. Do you honestly not suspect anyone other than me? When I die, who are you voting next?
Further, Xscorp, you follow kyle nicely on the "mykonian is focussing on night actions, and not scumhunting"
Theory discussion made that we almost completely skipped the RVS, but that doesn't mean I already know byPAGE 3who is scum. Seriously, be happy I have one case, that even works on someone who fails anyway.
I could make an argument that Kyle is very wishy-washy about me, the whole game long, fueling the wagon, but staying of it anyway. I could make a case that mindgamer practically doesn't attack anyone but me. Practically nobody (apart from looker and StK) are seriously scumhunting.
But seen from earlier games (kyle xscorp) you aren't the most brilliant players.
@Kyle, theory discussion during the start of the game isn't bad. And you can't say I have only discussed theorySurrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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do you propose trying to protect the townies, or do you propose to kill the scum?Light wrote:hey guys. just finished reading (although only briefly skimmed through some) @_@
I don't have a better variation in mind, looker so i can't comment there.
After reading, i conclude that we should all go our separate ways for night 1. this circle thing proves to benefit the scum, and we don't want that do we? myko's 2nd and 3rd revisions aren't great either, there are still significant flaws in it.Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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StK. Why would town claim mafia. twice. in one post?
they won't. Nor will they use sarcasm when criticized, or even (in case of the theory) ignore it.
unvote vote mindgamer
Further, scum and town differ not in the mistakes they make, they differ in the motives they have. Town wants to find scum, they try to make the game understandable, but on the other hand, not predictable for scum. And they want the truth.
Scum wants to stay alive, wants the game to be orderly, and from this (mostly the first) follows that scum usually have the motive to be not noticed (WIFOM, but with a larger percentage to the scum hiding)
All the tells you have in the wiki come down to those motives becoming visible, but they only work in sometimes. Omgus, for example, is a inaccurate tell since townies who are "unfairly" under attack have the idea their accuser must be scum. Scum misuse it to get their attacker under pressure, but this isn't happening very often, so that tell basically doesn't work.
Bandwagonning, the adding of a vote to a bandwagon while you have given no explanation other then that you want to lynch that guy is a more effective tell, since this could show the motive of scum that they want to stay alive (and to direct the lynch on a towny), starting a wagon, on the other hand, is more risky for scum.
etc etc.Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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@StK. A scumclaim is indeed an overrated tell. But people get lynched for it.DiscoRoboto wrote:@the comment on mindgamers scum claim, I played multiple games with him, and it's just part of his playstyle... sarcasm, I guess. but seriously, scumhunting = voting someone who claimed 2x scum? Don't know what to think about that.
This opposed to sarcasm. Sarcasm is stepping away from criticism, with a joke. It is avoiding the problem. It is actually quite a good tell, but not an accepted one.
Further, I was asked how to find scum. What I said was general, only affected by WIFOM further (scum wanting to look town), which makes that this game isn't easy.
And as you can see, I have my opinions about Kyle and Xscorp already there. That means I have arguments against 3 people now. I think it is because I have a lot of posts that you see a lot of theory.
There is one problem with my arguments. They are all on "weaker" players.Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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Myko wanted to avoid the bolded.DiscoRoboto wrote:I don't trust Light mainly because of his agreement with mykonians plan before even really thinking it through. Mykonians plan had several flaws, with one being thata mafia can influence the circle in such way that he can protect his mafia buddies.Now the logical procedure would be that his mafia buddy would support him in his plan so he could make the circle profitable for mafia, right?
Besides that he is really trying to stay out of the spotlight a bit too much. Just vibes there though.
The scumtell on the plan is obvious. Mindgamer pointed it out already, the plan is profitable to scum only if the scum itself makes it, and Mykonian immediatly suggests doing it, while not thinking other options through (like my plan (electing somebody)).
Xscrop vs others looks like TvT because I don't really get any scum vibes from either of you guys involved in the argument. Just thinking a bunch of misguided townies right now.
myko of course thought about a towny vote, but didn't like the consequeses: scum knows who to kill, and still can influence the making of the circle. Further, systems like that are usually doomed because they don't come to a decision.
So ehh, what is the obvious scumtell here? that the plan can be manipulated? Who knows, maybe lynches are manipulated by scum? lets not do them then!
Horrible logic, DiscoSurrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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the above post is scummy.
First, he isconsistentby finding me scum, even accusing people who don't agree of being scum (Looker). He even continues with attacking Looker....
and bandwagons Light. That is just weak.
And Disco, horrible logic is done by both scum and town, please tell me what you think of Kyle.
@StKif you are scum, how would you be caught (as in, what are your scumtells?)Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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and where have I said that. I know looker did. But I didn't. And even if I did, that doesn't mean Mindgamer isn't scummy for it. ad hominem.DiscoRoboto wrote:
Says the one who wants to bandwagon danny?and bandwagons Light. That is just weak.
way of totally not answering the question. My answer is actually in the thread already, I advice you to read it.
Ignoring the first part as it's obviously the mostAnd Disco, horrible logic is done by both scum and town, please tell me what you think of Kyle.moronicthing you can possibly say, I will ask you:
What is there to think about Kyle?
He once denied putting you at L-1, which was the correct course of action, then he suspected a looker+myko scum team (which is oh so coincidentily also suspected by mindgamer atm) theres not much to think except for what he's done seems fine so far.
what do YOU think about kyle?
HOW CAN YOU CALL LOGIC HORRIBLE IF YOU DONT EVEN UNDERSTAND WHAT IT WAS ALL ABOUT.
sigh, i got that out of my system.Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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Town doesn't mind giving this information. Please answer the question, StK.SaintKerrigan wrote:@ Mykonian: Why would I want to disclose that kind of information? Even if I did, would you believe me? If you really want to know, go meta me on my scum games and decide for yourself what my scumtells are.Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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It is frowned upon to play suboptimally as town to make you play better as scum. Please don't do that, and answer the question. Why would you as a good towny not tell us?SaintKerrigan wrote:
But I'm not always going to be town. It's not in my best interests as a player to disclose my weaknesses. As I stated before, you are free to look up my meta, check my scum games, and see how I play then to determine my scumtells. I will not, however, tell you outright.mykonian wrote:
Town doesn't mind giving this information. Please answer the question, StK.SaintKerrigan wrote:@ Mykonian: Why would I want to disclose that kind of information? Even if I did, would you believe me? If you really want to know, go meta me on my scum games and decide for yourself what my scumtells are.
Or are you scum that is afraid to give this information?Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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Oh, and why is this pseudo-scumhunting.DiscoRoboto wrote:Mykonian stop bugging Saint, it's getting us nowhere since you started it and it's the prime example of psuedo-scumhunting.
I heard light say 'you know what your role does etc' this is not true. What if you are a killing role and target the same target as the normal doctor, and nothing happens. what do you know now?
unvotegonna retreat my vote... for now. I want to keep options open.
@Light, what exactly about Mindgamers post makes you think he's one of the townies?
No, disco, the point is very simple. There is only one type of player that doesn't want to tell how we can catch him if he is scum.
and that is scum. I actually don't care what the tells would be,I am much more interested if the person wants to avoid the question, because that is a hard and definate scumtell.
This with the defensiveness of StK of me, right in the beginning (for looker this is rather normal, seen his meta), but for StK, he has to know something, I think.
But that point is hardly convincing, so I needed more evidence. And here you have it.
unvote vote StKYou are scum.Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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I has the superior argument, LETS DO BOTH.kyle99 wrote:After mulling it over for a while, I still think Mykonian is the person to lynch now.vote: MykonianI really think that we're going to win this game by scumhunting. Relying on night-actions could really blow up in our face.
Please, kyle, since when is it normal to scumhunt, since when have I said I absolutely wouldn't do that? Actually, you are the one who has only debated with yourself to vote or not, and have given very little information.
So, get scumhunting, and stop pretending like I don't want to. This vote sucks.Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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and I tell you you do it because you are scum.SaintKerrigan wrote:How is avoiding your question a "hard and definite" scumtell, Mykonian? I told you multiple times already, if you want to see how I act as scum, go look up my meta. I've told you multiple times why I don't want to just go off and name my scumtells.Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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Why are you defending StK, mindgamer? Is he your scumbuddy? In fact, until now, I have had only one player avoiding this question, and that player was scum, while I had some people answer it in an ongoing game. Good luck winning this argument.
and I have played with looker before, dear mindgamer. I think I have a good idea how he plays/thinks. And I see nothing surprising.Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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Blue is theory.
light wrote:MindGamer wrote:So you refuse to do a meta-read on SaintKerrigan, but in the mean time you have done a meta-read on Looker?
nice catch. There is absolutely nothing stopping you from searching for how StK plays. Asking for someone's weakness = complete stupidity. Its like saying "Lex: Oh hello there superman, what is your weakness?" "superman: kryptonite, it hurts me when i touch it or near it". No person who is not mentally f*cked in the head would tell you his/her weakness, unless of course you were good friends.
!vote mykoWait a minute. If I asked someone's weakness as town, that would be insane, and superman is clearly town. If I asked confirmed scum what his weakness was, that would be insane too.
But what if I suspect someone of being scum, and ask for his weakness as scum?
Town has no worries, he can just tell, he is not telling his weaknesses as town.
Scum has worries.
Meaning that the question is a way to deduct who is scum. The answer itself doesn't matter, it is how much that person worries about answering. And StK worried very much.
And I no longer read other games. I just have played quite often with looker, and only one game with StK. So I have quite a good idea how looker plays, and I barely know StK.
Plus that you have a very minimalistic idea of "meta". You see it as what people do when playing as a certain role. Since the way people play changes rapidly, this information is not very usefull. It is easy to get.
But if you know how a person normally thinks, if you know he is a gambler or not, if you know he loves to manipulate, and how good he is at it, if you know how concious he is of his own actions, you can predict much better how someone is going to act. This takes time before you know this, but this "meta" hardly changes over time. This is the "meta" I'm talking about.
Oh, and Looker is concious about what he is doing as scum. You won't catch him this way.Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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Theory predicts, StK. You are directly moving to the practical application, skipping my theory. I assume that means I was correct there, and itSaintKerrigan wrote:How many games have you played with Looker, Mykonian? I'm looking for an exact number here.
Also, your theory on your question is flawed. You haven't run it enough times to determine that a majority of the people who refuse to answer the question are scum. Onlyoncehas a person refused to answer your question (before me), and that one time the person happened to be scum. But once isn't enough to set a precedence. Thus, you can't use it reliably as a scumtell.isscummy not to avoid this question (or any question).
Of course, you could still be town, but that is the same with every tell. Nothing is absolute, and that is what you are saying here.
Further, I am not completely certain how many we played, maybe looker can name one I missed.
A newby game (although it doesn't really count, he got mislynched early, after playing quite playfully, almost role-playing like, liking the idea of the game)
A poly lovers game, as town.
then, I remember a game where I said that the above two had happened, and that I this time wouldn't try to mislynch looker, and seen that I have no good memories of that, I believe I was mislynched pretty quickly.
uhm, I probably forget 1.
And Looker has a playstyle (you can probably confirm that seen the above, and here), that gives a lot of reactions, but makes people also very suspicious of him. Meaning that Looker is often in the defensive. In this, there are similarities between mine and lookers playstyle. Maybe that makes it easier to understand where he is coming from.Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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Uhm, Disco. Read my posts.DiscoRoboto wrote:Myko:
Worrying can't be read over the internet like that.Meaning that the question is a way to deduct who is scum. The answer itself doesn't matter, it is how much that person worries about answering. And StK worried very much.
How do you know how conscious Looker is executing his actions? The only way to know that is by being his scumbuddy.Oh, and Looker is concious about what he is doing as scum. You won't catch him this way.
Yeah stuff like that.
First, worrying is expressed in the avoidance of the question. Someone who didn't worry about it, would answer without problem. Someone who worried a bit would maybe wait a post, then be convinced he should answer. Somebody who really doesn't like it, and worries about the consequenses? Doesn't answer.
And that last point plain sucks. You see how looker plays. He makes a vote without reason. Why would he do that, assuming he is a clever guy (he is)?
Because a: he know people will react on it, and based on these reactions he tries to find someone reacting weird
b: he knows the above, is concious about what he does, and is scum doing it.
Being concious about what you are doing = quite able to copy his town meta as scum.
Basically, Disco, you make your theories about who is scum or not too complicated. For example, the looker-concious- point:
What you claim would have happened: pregame looker-scum would have told what he thinks when he posts (very unlikely)
ingame, scum-myko accidentaly spills this information (also unlikely, seen that it is an accident, they don't happen very often).
This makes that the actual argument is very weak, since it is very unlikely. Please check your other points too :/ because one can hardly argue when the theories you base your votes on are this far-fetchedSurrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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I predict it because scum is the only one who has problems with answering that question.SaintKerrigan wrote:@ Mykonian: You are incorrect. It isnotscummy to avoid your question. You're predicting that I am scum because the person before me who refused to answer your question was scum. One time is not enough to be a reliable tell. The only other thing you have to say against me is that my defense of you is suspicious, which you admit yourself is not enough. Thus, both of your reasons for voting me are weak. I strongly urge you to reconsider your vote.
Meanwhile, Kyle's got a point about XScorp.Unvote: Kyle99. Vote: XScorpion.
Why do you keep strawmanning me by hammering on that I only used it once before, in stead of arguing the theory?
BECAUSE YOU CAN'T ARGUE ABOUT THAT
And I would be happy with a scorp lynch. I hate a disco-Looker-kyle lynch. I don't think any of them should happen today. Light is a neutral, mindgamer is annoying, xscorp always scum, and Danny is ???Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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What information do you have as town to make you choose for a theory that you admit to be unlikely (though not impossible)?DiscoRoboto wrote:Because a: he know people will react on it, and based on these reactions he tries to find someone reacting weird
b: he knows the above, is concious about what he does, and is scum doing it.
OR
c: he talked his posting behavior and overall game strategy over with his scum buddy who accidently breadcrumbed it.
It's not far-fetched, there is no 'too strange to be true' or 'too ... to be ...'
Seriously, you make no sense. I have a gut town read on you, but you act as if you have more information then you can have. And then you tunnel on it, denying all information that contradicts your current read. Please tell, why are you a towny?Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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I have already admitted the tell not to be absolute. I think it counts enough against you to vote you. I show here I know its weaknesses.SaintKerrigan wrote:
So, you're simply going to deny all my responses as "excuses," eh? Tunneling much?mykonian wrote:And StK, that is your excuse, I know. It is the only hiding place.
It is also the only thing that doesn't make it an absolute tell.
But I know them of a lot of tells, and that doesn't mean I won't vote.Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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Bolded: WOW. What a way to backtrack. Since when do you not have responsibility for what you post?DiscoRoboto wrote:I have never admitted or said to have 'chosen' the theory, I'm simply laying it on the table.
Why am I towny? I don't know, because I haven't really been scummy for as far as I can tell. If you have objections to that, please point em out.
I always act like I have more information than I actually have, at least I hear so from others.
The two of you moving in a group is duly noted.
No disco, if it is too unlikely to be true (and see my post, it is), then you don't post it, because it adds nothing. This way you just add more suspicion around me, looker, or whoeverwhile it shouldn't be there.
This is one reason why I very much dislike any "scumbuddy" argument made before we lynched scum. There is often little basis (since you always have a few steps that are unlikely), but they do add suspicion from the group to that player. It doesn't help to hunt scum.
Kyle, xscorp, get here and post.Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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this is what I mean. You are just trying to scare people.DiscoRoboto wrote:The two of you moving in a group is duly noted.
why is this notable?
If one is scum, what does that make the other?
if one is town, what does that make the other?
This is no scumhunting, Disco. This is manipulating. Now, show me some scumhunting.Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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You want to play, disco? Lets see who can post the most shit about each other... And no, it isDiscoRoboto wrote:I never denied having responsibility, nice way to twist my words.
There is never anything too unlikely to be true. NEVER. Things can be 'far-fetched' but that doesn't make it less possible.
and about your comment regarding adding suspicion around people, just wow. Just... wow.
It shouldn't be there? How subjective can it get?This way you just add more suspicion around me, looker, or whoever while it shouldn't be there.
If I can lay it on the table, people can judge for themselves if it should be there or not, that's nothing for you to judge.
Besides, how should it not be there? It's a thought, it really happened, there's no twisting (even if there was it should be there but more as a point against me rather then a point against you), so what's the problem here? Why should it not be open as a suggestion/option?your explanationnot what happened.
Then you prefer to post your explanation, letting the others out (until I posted them), while it is less likely, by far. When I call you on this, you fail to take responsibility for it. You just posted it. You didn't mean anything with it. Lol. In your words: wow, just... wow.
What are you hiding?Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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Mindgamer, I know how looker plays. I don't know how those games went.
here, mindgamer moves from annoying to town.DiscoRoboto
Also, nobody noticing me might just be because I'm playing this game correctly? I don't know, but people noticing you (because i.e. a danny wagon) is usually a bad thing.
No, no, no. You want people to notice you. A good townie is always on the lookout for scum, and you want other people to notice your finds. What could possibly be wrong with being noticed? That's how a scum thinks. Quite a big slip from you here, DiscoRoboto. Over 9000 scumpoints for you!
Disco, first, mindgamer is right. Second, if you are town, this is wrong. This is why scum wins so much, by hiding. Town wants the whole game to be active, talking, not hiding. You prefer hiding, I see.
and now it is a serious bandwagon:
Again you're thinking with the mindset of a scum. A townie is scumhunting, posting quality content et cetera. A townie does not care how he looks like, he cares about finding scum. But you are thinking that not doing scummy things makes you look like town. Huh? Seriously, when I'm playing a game where I'm town, like this game, I'm thinking 'how can I find that darn scum!'. Not: 'Have I been scummy this game?'.DiscoRoboto
Why am I towny? I don't know, because I haven't really been scummy for as far as I can tell.
Unvote. Vote: DiscoRoboto
Serious vote. You're thinking like a scum.unvote vote DiscoRobotoSurrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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Bolded, you take no responsibility.DiscoRoboto wrote:I have never admitted or said to have 'chosen' the theory, I'm simply laying it on the table.
Why am I towny? I don't know, because I haven't really been scummy for as far as I can tell. If you have objections to that, please point em out.
I always act like I have more information than I actually have, at least I hear so from others.
The two of you moving in a group is duly noted.
Further, you choose to lay only that possibilityon the table(I am sure this is Dutch, not English), while waiting for others to add the other possibilities.Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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Why are you afraid to tell what you think here? Waiting for what the rest thinks, so you can agree? Obv hiding scum here.DiscoRoboto wrote:I'm personally not sure on wether we should actually do a circle or not, so I would like the people to speak.Any comments on doing a circle or not? If yes, what do you think about doing a majority vote?
Post edited and more fencesitting bolded. this is becoming a trend.DiscoRoboto wrote:I agree with individual night actions.
On my suspicions, I don't really trust Light but I'm not really going to pressure/commit to him yet.
@the comment on mindgamers scum claim, I played multiple games with him, and it's just part of his playstyle... sarcasm, I guess. but seriously, scumhunting = voting someone who claimed 2x scum?Don't know what to think about that.
Disco, why are you defending StK. Is this because youDiscoRoboto wrote:Mykonian stop bugging Saint, it's getting us nowhere since you started it and it's the prime example of psuedo-scumhunting.
I heard light say 'you know what your role does etc' this is not true. What if you are a killing role and target the same target as the normal doctor, and nothing happens. what do you know now?
unvotegonna retreat my vote... for now. I want to keep options open.
@Light, what exactly about Mindgamers post makes you think he's one of the townies?knowhim to be town? Or is he your scumbuddy?Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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Disco, why are you only suspecting the players that are most in the attention? (looker, me)
Don't they get most attention because they take risks, because they have made 70 of the 178 in this thread, brought by far the most information into this thread?
Are you too stupid to understand, or are you just trying to get a lynch that suits you?Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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And by pure chance, these two are the largest bandwagons, and with the most scumhunting players. You make a very convincing point, Disco.DiscoRoboto post 183 wrote:
The fact that you guys are in the attention are irrelevant, you are looking scummy to me.mykonian wrote:Disco, why are you only suspecting the players that are most in the attention? (looker, me)Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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uhm, disco, when will you start giving information, in stead of continiously waiting for other people to do something?DiscoRoboto wrote:Well obviously I have to defend myself, I could also just keep hiding like Kyle/Danny/Light are doing and stroll into lategame. Besides, I have time, so why would I not take the time to defend myself? I don't think it's that bad to be active, it only increases your chance to get information out of me, right?Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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a: I really want to know how high your table is.Looker wrote:Apparently not now. (Hi-five's Mykonian under the table)
b: what are we doing under the table
c: he is sort of excused, it is quite late for him
d:you haven't understood a thing of what has just been posted. What a horrible post.KyleSurrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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LOL. Seriously, Disco, this is too funny. And you don't even get the joke.DiscoRoboto wrote:Well obviously I have to defend myself,I could also just keep hiding like Kyle/Danny/Light are doing and stroll into lategame.Besides, I have time, so why would I not take the time to defend myself? I don't think it's that bad to be active, it only increases your chance to get information out of me, right?
But seriously, just generally pointing at the lurkers when you are under pressure? You are seriously scum looking for a way out.Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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Q: Why is not voting a scumtell?DiscoRoboto wrote:Oh, so now I use my vote even though I doubt it unnecessary and you make a deal out of it?
GEEEEEEZ people make up your mind.
A: because scum will have to "lie" when voting, has to fake scumhunting. Which is the same reasoning that also shows that voting without a reason is a scumtell.
Q: What is Disco doing here?
A: avoiding any risks, and is not scumhunting
B: what is Disco's role?Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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lol @trying to make this rolefishing.you clearly see what I mean, and you are purely twisting my words here. Thank you for your scumclaim, scum.
Why have we never heard anything about Mindgamer from you? Is this pure OMGUS? Further, this shit is the game.
Can we lynch this guy?Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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yeah, put it out of context, that'll help...
Context = win.mykonian wrote:Q: Why is not voting a scumtell?
A: because scum will have to "lie" when voting, has to fake scumhunting. Which is the same reasoning that also shows that voting without a reason is a scumtell.
Q: What is Disco doing here?
A: avoiding any risks, and is not scumhunting
B: what is Disco's role?
it is a rhetorical question... And you know. Because you have read the post, seeing that first I argue why a tell works, then I argue that Disco acts in this way, with the conclusion that Disco is scum.
IF YOU THINK DISCO IS STRAWMANNING HERE, PLEASE VOTESurrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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yeah, same for me. You only want it to say again you don't understand what a rhetorical question is. (if you did, you would have understood why I used it). So I really don't see the use to put that amount of time into the game.DiscoRoboto wrote:You do realise that because I have stated my defenses I am currently unaware of what you still consider a 'scummy' point against me.
That's why I want you to gather everything that you still consider in your judgement on me.
I could Iso myself and quote all the posts that had Disco in it, and you would have a case, but we would also have cluttered the thread.
(so yes, this is a subtle way of saying: "JUST READ MY POSTS")Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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I would look for another counterwagon. There are way better points on you then on light.DiscoRoboto wrote:
Saying this basicly makes him clear from you the entire game, right?SaintKerrigan wrote:Light is beginning to look more new player to me than scum player.Unvote: Light. Vote: XScorpion.
'Oh he did something scummy, but he's a new player, so I forgive him.'
I personally don't like the 'newbie' excuse at all. How are you planning on acting if Light keeps being suspicious/questionable?Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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Have fun, Disco.
mykonian wrote:
What information do you have as town to make you choose for a theory that you admit to be unlikely (though not impossible)?DiscoRoboto wrote:Because a: he know people will react on it, and based on these reactions he tries to find someone reacting weird
b: he knows the above, is concious about what he does, and is scum doing it.
OR
c: he talked his posting behavior and overall game strategy over with his scum buddy who accidently breadcrumbed it.
It's not far-fetched, there is no 'too strange to be true' or 'too ... to be ...'
Seriously, you make no sense. I have a gut town read on you, but you act as if you have more information then you can have. And then you tunnel on it, denying all information that contradicts your current read. Please tell, why are you a towny?mykonian wrote:
Bolded: WOW. What a way to backtrack. Since when do you not have responsibility for what you post?DiscoRoboto wrote:I have never admitted or said to have 'chosen' the theory, I'm simply laying it on the table.
Why am I towny? I don't know, because I haven't really been scummy for as far as I can tell. If you have objections to that, please point em out.
I always act like I have more information than I actually have, at least I hear so from others.
The two of you moving in a group is duly noted.
No disco, if it is too unlikely to be true (and see my post, it is), then you don't post it, because it adds nothing. This way you just add more suspicion around me, looker, or whoeverwhile it shouldn't be there.
This is one reason why I very much dislike any "scumbuddy" argument made before we lynched scum. There is often little basis (since you always have a few steps that are unlikely), but they do add suspicion from the group to that player. It doesn't help to hunt scum.
Kyle, xscorp, get here and post.mykonian wrote:
this is what I mean. You are just trying to scare people.DiscoRoboto wrote:The two of you moving in a group is duly noted.
why is this notable?
If one is scum, what does that make the other?
if one is town, what does that make the other?
This is no scumhunting, Disco. This is manipulating. Now, show me some scumhunting.mykonian wrote:Mindgamer, I know how looker plays. I don't know how those games went.
here, mindgamer moves from annoying to town.DiscoRoboto
Also, nobody noticing me might just be because I'm playing this game correctly? I don't know, but people noticing you (because i.e. a danny wagon) is usually a bad thing.
No, no, no. You want people to notice you. A good townie is always on the lookout for scum, and you want other people to notice your finds. What could possibly be wrong with being noticed? That's how a scum thinks. Quite a big slip from you here, DiscoRoboto. Over 9000 scumpoints for you!
Disco, first, mindgamer is right. Second, if you are town, this is wrong. This is why scum wins so much, by hiding. Town wants the whole game to be active, talking, not hiding. You prefer hiding, I see.
and now it is a serious bandwagon:
Again you're thinking with the mindset of a scum. A townie is scumhunting, posting quality content et cetera. A townie does not care how he looks like, he cares about finding scum. But you are thinking that not doing scummy things makes you look like town. Huh? Seriously, when I'm playing a game where I'm town, like this game, I'm thinking 'how can I find that darn scum!'. Not: 'Have I been scummy this game?'.DiscoRoboto
Why am I towny? I don't know, because I haven't really been scummy for as far as I can tell.
Unvote. Vote: DiscoRoboto
Serious vote. You're thinking like a scum.unvote vote DiscoRobotomykonian wrote:
Bolded, you take no responsibility.DiscoRoboto wrote:I have never admitted or said to have 'chosen' the theory, I'm simply laying it on the table.
Why am I towny? I don't know, because I haven't really been scummy for as far as I can tell. If you have objections to that, please point em out.
I always act like I have more information than I actually have, at least I hear so from others.
The two of you moving in a group is duly noted.
Further, you choose to lay only that possibilityon the table(I am sure this is Dutch, not English), while waiting for others to add the other possibilities.mykonian wrote:
Why are you afraid to tell what you think here? Waiting for what the rest thinks, so you can agree? Obv hiding scum here.DiscoRoboto wrote:I'm personally not sure on wether we should actually do a circle or not, so I would like the people to speak.Any comments on doing a circle or not? If yes, what do you think about doing a majority vote?
Post edited and more fencesitting bolded. this is becoming a trend.DiscoRoboto wrote:I agree with individual night actions.
On my suspicions, I don't really trust Light but I'm not really going to pressure/commit to him yet.
@the comment on mindgamers scum claim, I played multiple games with him, and it's just part of his playstyle... sarcasm, I guess. but seriously, scumhunting = voting someone who claimed 2x scum?Don't know what to think about that.
Disco, why are you defending StK. Is this because youDiscoRoboto wrote:Mykonian stop bugging Saint, it's getting us nowhere since you started it and it's the prime example of psuedo-scumhunting.
I heard light say 'you know what your role does etc' this is not true. What if you are a killing role and target the same target as the normal doctor, and nothing happens. what do you know now?
unvotegonna retreat my vote... for now. I want to keep options open.
@Light, what exactly about Mindgamers post makes you think he's one of the townies?knowhim to be town? Or is he your scumbuddy?mykonian wrote:Disco, why are you only suspecting the players that are most in the attention? (looker, me)
Don't they get most attention because they take risks, because they have made 70 of the 178 in this thread, brought by far the most information into this thread?
Are you too stupid to understand, or are you just trying to get a lynch that suits you?mykonian wrote:
And by pure chance, these two are the largest bandwagons, and with the most scumhunting players. You make a very convincing point, Disco.DiscoRoboto post 183 wrote:
The fact that you guys are in the attention are irrelevant, you are looking scummy to me.mykonian wrote:Disco, why are you only suspecting the players that are most in the attention? (looker, me)mykonian wrote:
uhm, disco, when will you start giving information, in stead of continiously waiting for other people to do something?DiscoRoboto wrote:Well obviously I have to defend myself, I could also just keep hiding like Kyle/Danny/Light are doing and stroll into lategame. Besides, I have time, so why would I not take the time to defend myself? I don't think it's that bad to be active, it only increases your chance to get information out of me, right?mykonian wrote:
LOL. Seriously, Disco, this is too funny. And you don't even get the joke.DiscoRoboto wrote:Well obviously I have to defend myself,I could also just keep hiding like Kyle/Danny/Light are doing and stroll into lategame.Besides, I have time, so why would I not take the time to defend myself? I don't think it's that bad to be active, it only increases your chance to get information out of me, right?
But seriously, just generally pointing at the lurkers when you are under pressure? You are seriously scum looking for a way out.mykonian wrote:
Q: Why is not voting a scumtell?DiscoRoboto wrote:Oh, so now I use my vote even though I doubt it unnecessary and you make a deal out of it?
GEEEEEEZ people make up your mind.
A: because scum will have to "lie" when voting, has to fake scumhunting. Which is the same reasoning that also shows that voting without a reason is a scumtell.
Q: What is Disco doing here?
A: avoiding any risks, and is not scumhunting
B: what is Disco's role?mykonian wrote:lol @trying to make this rolefishing.you clearly see what I mean, and you are purely twisting my words here. Thank you for your scumclaim, scum.
Why have we never heard anything about Mindgamer from you? Is this pure OMGUS? Further, this shit is the game.
Can we lynch this guy?mykonian wrote:yeah, put it out of context, that'll help...
Context = win.mykonian wrote:Q: Why is not voting a scumtell?
A: because scum will have to "lie" when voting, has to fake scumhunting. Which is the same reasoning that also shows that voting without a reason is a scumtell.
Q: What is Disco doing here?
A: avoiding any risks, and is not scumhunting
B: what is Disco's role?
it is a rhetorical question... And you know. Because you have read the post, seeing that first I argue why a tell works, then I argue that Disco acts in this way, with the conclusion that Disco is scum.
IF YOU THINK DISCO IS STRAWMANNING HERE, PLEASE VOTESurrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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First you say you don't vote often, or only when you think someone scummy, then you come with some nice piece of theory discussion where you promote voting, and for information.
means you don't mean a thing of one, and you are posting theory because you like to, or you used the first as an excuse not to vote.Surrender, imagine and of course wear something nice.-
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mykonian Frisian Shoulder-Demon
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- Joined: August 27, 2008