Open 321: Kc's FIRE and ICE: Game over.

[smargaret]

I would confirm as instructed, but I'm sadly behind the times and don't have a clue what the instructions mean.

[smargaret]

[smargaret]

1. Klazam is likely scum with Reab, not as likely scum if Reab is town. Backing off of the (legit, IMO) scumslip like that just looks like scum distancing, and there have been other places in the thread where Klazam/ConfidAnon fence sat.
2. VE is likely town. That kind of AtE is common in new town players who suddenly find themselves under serious pressure. It's an opportunistic wagon and there are probably scum on it, remember for later when we have some flips.
3. Reab is almost certainly scum. The timing of having to go away for a week is just too convenient, and how you can find vengeful and voteless townies and NOT vanilla just doesn't make sense.
4. IGMEO DX, his first post shows an excessive interest in the actions of his predecessor. Same goes for CavJJ.
5. Empking is likely town for pinning himself down, although I'd like to see a more in-depth explanation for why his list contains all the scum.

[smargaret]

Vote: Reab

[smargaret]

You're setting yourself up to forget when Reab comes back, or to have moved on to something else. Plus, your initial reaction was very much backpedaling away from your accusation - and it's only when you're called on it that you say that you're not really backing off, just waiting until he gets back.

[smargaret]

Yes, it is. You're backing off of our assertion that he's scum and needs to be lynched right this minute.

[smargaret]

*your, not our.

[smargaret]

Also, if you select "townie" on MBF's overview, you get something that starts "A "vanilla" townie ..."

[smargaret]

Cirno, you seem very curious about how everyone views everyone else, but you don't really seem to be doing much scumhunting yourself.

FOS: Cirno

[smargaret]

No, questioning people isn't always scumhunting. Trying to get a feel for a person's motivations is scumhunting. Asking questions that help scum figure out who to kill and make it look like you're participating when you really aren't is not.

[smargaret]

EBWOP: If your questioning of the last two pages is scumhunting, then what conclusions have you drawn as a result?

[smargaret]

No, questioning people isn't always scumhunting. Trying to get a feel for a person's motivations is scumhunting. Asking questions that help scum figure out who to kill and make it look like you're participating when you really aren't is not.

No. Asking people about their reads and to explain their reads is mafia 101. Asking

a

player who they suspect and why not only forces the player to state their position (thereby making it more difficult for them to hop wagons) but it allows you to analyze their reasoning. Also, in this setup even scum will scumhunt as there are two opposing mafia factions.

I would require more elaboration from both David and cavjj before I could tell you if I've learned anything from this line of questioning.

Now I want to know what exactly you find scummy about my line of questioning and why.

The thing is, you do that

after

you have a suspect, and that singular is important - if you ask everyone, then you're not applying pressure, you're not encouraging discussion, and you are telling the scum who they're going to have a hard time lynching. Just blanket tossing out "Who are your top three suspects?" doesn't do anything as far as advancing the game, but it is active lurking.

You can't even tell me where this is going or if you'll be able to get anything out of David/cav/anyone else who answers.

Also, I'm going v/la Wed-Saturday night. My in-laws don't believe in wireless internet, so whenever I get dragged off to visit them I get to go without a computer.

[smargaret]

Viscera, there's nothing to discuss if you don't tell us why you aren't voting.

In other news, I'm v/la starting now through Saturday evening.

[smargaret]

Vote: Whiskers

Scum defending his buddy. I'd be happy with either a Whiskers or a Reab lynch today.

[smargaret]

Also, Klazam - why the delay between pointing something out and voting?

[smargaret]

Klazam - explain that please? ice mafia wouldn't think that only fire mafia targeted their kill.

In other news, I agree that hammer was scummy. And Reab was scummy to begin with.

Vote: Reab

[smargaret]

Scum get one kill. If either team killed Emp, then it's not possible both teams killed whoever else was supposed to die.

[smargaret]

Reab, you quickhammered immediately after coming back from a v/la that suspiciously coincided with heavy suspicion on you. It looks an awful lot like you were just trying to deflect attention from your scumslip, especially since you haven't really responded to the accusations from yesterday.

[smargaret]

also: you can know who you're lynching, and still want to discuss things more to get better reads on people

[smargaret]

KJ, I want to know what about Reab makes you think he's town, especially your opinion on the vt thing. Rechecking the role PM is also a red flag to me.

Reab, the wiki has information on abbreviations if you're confused.

I promise I'll have a larger post later, but I have a friend coming to visit, her name is Irene, maybe you've heard of her? Anyway, I have a migraine from the pressure change and I'll likely lose power (and thus internet/computer) tomorrow and Sunday.

[smargaret]

Oh yeah, TF, why the wifom with the nk speculation? and kj's comment about townpoints looks really bad, sarcastic or not.

unvote
vote: kj

[smargaret]

and my earlier posts were supposed to be

possible weather-related v/la through whenever Irene has left New England and power is restored if necessary

[smargaret]

You just asked a detailed question of "Why me?"

In which I will respond: Why me = Fry me.

------------------

But I'll amuse you.

The middle is a perfect spot for scum to hide in a wagon. Klazam, cavjj, and Krazy jumped on the wagon without saying SHIT.

So why am I (the actual middle person on that wagon) not on your scum list?

Reab: I'm a woman.

There are a couple more things I want to look up, but I'm really not liking CSL's play of late.

[smargaret]

I'm actually not against the quick-hammer. You guys were voting for Whiskers for retarded reasons and I just wanted the day to be over. The case against Reab was equally ridiculous, and considering I'm equally suspicious of CSL, I have my very first confirmed town in the game. Congratulations. The last to even be close to having that honor was Whiskers. Whiskers is dead. And incidentally confirmed town. Go figure.

VOTE: CSL

I can't wait for CSL to die! ^^

So, if we were voting for bad reasons, why didn't you point this out? Why not try to make a case to stop us from mislynching? And being attacked by someone you have a scumread on doesn't make another player town in a game with two scumteams, and it certainly doesn't confirm them as such.

You're null on 2/3 of the players here?

You're null on about half the players here.

Why would you joke about how scummy your predecessor was? Why would you care/pay attention to PI's play? That's why it's a red flag.

Sarcasm about townpoints - It looks an awful lot like you're just trying to backtrack and make an excuse for a scumslip you got caught in

Also, CSL, middle place on the wagon stopped being a reliable scumtell the minute that it was published as such on the wiki.

[smargaret]

If you didn't realize you were replacing PI, why would his scummy play prompt you to recheck your role PM?

[smargaret]

You made one post indicating that you thought we were wrong. You didn't even explain why you thought the sequence of events was fishy. That seems like an awfully half-hearted post to me, and not one that would be effective at

convincing

people they're wrong.

[smargaret]

Cirno - it's less that the townpoints comment is scummy, and more that the behavior was scummy and the townpoints rationalization looks like kj's flailing around after getting caught trying to appear town.

[smargaret]

CSL's vote sucks. Yeah, town doesn't want to die - but town also recognizes that mislynches happen, and that damage control (saying who you think is scummy, and why, so after you're lynched and have flipped town, you can still contribute) is the best reaction. CSL is trying to avert his lynch without giving us any information, which is so anti-town it isn't even funny.

Unvote
Vote: CSL

That's L-1. KJ still needs to die, but CSL can go first.

[smargaret]

Seconding the massprod request. And the votecount request.

[smargaret]

Who's replacing Cirno?

[smargaret]

So DX, are you claiming doc or not? If you aren't, then we can clear three people today and have a lynch pool of 4/6, which is pretty good odds just guessing blindly, let alone analyzing.

I hadn't realized Cirno didn't want replacing.

Vote: kj

I still don't like you from yesterday.

[smargaret]

IF

DX isn't the doc, then he is clear as are the real doc and the n1 target. The no-kill suggests both scumgroups shot the same person, and given that DX softclaimed doc yesterday, the odds that both scumgroups shot someone not DX are vanishingly slim. If DX was shot by both scumgroups, then he is a member of neither.

[smargaret]

That's quite a reaction for two votes, KJ. And an awfully scummy one, at that. On the other hand, I think you're probably right about Cirno/Krazy being scum - I just think you're on the other scumteam.

I don't really see the point in announcing a townlist at this point of the game. It isn't like confirming people as town because it's all based on hypothesis, but what it does do is give more information to scum (they know who the town considers to be town, and will kill from that list - but unlike a conftown list, the doc's odds of protecting right are lower because there are scum in the set of all posted townlists).

[smargaret]

Spoiler: Krazy's Greatest Hits

I can understand that people vote me, I'm not being very active, I'm on vacation and usually away from home and with very limited internet access, and that is making me difficult to stay active in this game. The game is also moving extremely slowly and with a lot of replacements, so it's difficult to catch on on the action, since so little is happening (a bit confusing, but I think you can understand).

Actually, I don't really understand. The pace of the game should make it easier to stay up to date on the action or the lack thereof, scumplaining about your own lurkiness and deflecting blame doesn't really help you.

In my experience

(and this game confirms it) lurkers usually get caught

and voted.

Hmm. Despite how ridiculous the italicized comment is, your argument even as you seemed to intend it doesn't actually make you any less scummy. A) Even if you did believe lurking is not optimal play now, that does not mean you thought so for the last few weeks when it was a lot easier with the wagons on VE and after that bouncing around some other people, B) There's no reason to think you were playing optimally even if you did think that, C) You're wrong either way, lurking works a lot of the time, and D) this is another post where you scumplain about the wagon on you, of which your last posts seem to be 3(scumplaining):1(accusing Reab). Take a page out of VE's playbook here?

God, I'd forgotten how slow this game is moving -.-

Nice choice to complain about it instead of saying anything interesting.


Wagon on Toon Fighter is good wagon, although my current inclination is that the wagon on VE is still a better wagon.

No, said "VT" because i didnt want to ask what a VT is, because you would have misinterpreted it :/ NEED TO GO!

That is a totally unsatisfactory answer to your question, Klazam, (and your question itself is one I might have asked myself). Not sure why you accept this answer.

On the other hand though, I had a townread on MediocreJPop, which either means MediocreJPop was much better at appearing town than either the first person in that slot or the current one, I'm still inclined to say that Ceab is more likely to be derping town than scumslipping.

But this thing where Reab doesn't even ask whether he's claiming "voteless townie" or "vengeful townie" is extremely alarming, in more than just a scum-slip kind of way. Even if telling the truth, that means Reab is not asking vital questions that interfere with his capacity to understand what people are saying in the game. Honestly, not asking whether it's Voteless Townie or Vengeful Townie because he's afraid it will be "misinterpreted" might actually be scummier than the apparent slip.

Gonna have to process this one a bit more.

After a readthrough of the thread, I'm absolutely and unequivocally NOT voting for Reab.

Discuss.

I think Empking deserves a closer look guys. His nonsense of posting no more than one line or two is doing a good job of keeping us guessing as to his reasons for his suspicions, and that's pretty much all it's doing. Agree with him or not, I don't like the way he's presenting it. It feels scummy.

You never explained why you are "absolutely and unequivocally NOT voting for Reab" but now you're saying Empking is scum for doing almost exactly what you did in regard to Reab.

And I agree that he could have scumhunted between his v/las.

I did not say that, quite the opposite, actually. In any case, did you seriously just ask me to explain why I find his post insincere? I suppose that would be due to a lack of sincerity. Trying awfully hard to poison the well here, aren't you?

As for you, 1) do you actually think TF is town? 2) why did you choose David over Klazam, if both seem to be attacking TF for scummy reasons fypov?

How exactly was my vote on VE opportunistic? That makes no sense to me.

For the other two, I can sort of see where kj is coming from, but his accusations remain unfounded. Before I made the vote on Reab, the game was seriously stalling, almost entirely because the wagons were so spread out so that no meaningful pressure could be applied to any player and votes themselves began to have no meaning. VE pretty much just ignored my push on him, and the lack of town support on him suggested it was time to look for one of the other three scum. CSL can choose to say that it's scummy to join a growing wagon but that doesn't make it true; sitting on a dead wagon can be just an excuse not to contribute to the rest of the game and pushes the game into a stall. Although VE was my top scum candidate at that point, it made more sense to get some momentum into the game, and so I voted for Reab. But, I wasn't really satisfied with that vote, for reasons I have already explained. When Whiskers appeared to be rolefishing in a way I took to be scummy, I had no problem moving to a better wagon. The weak vote there is the one on Reab, and I perhaps can see why including it as part of a pattern can make my votes look suspicious.

Basically, I can see how kj, as town, would get that impression, but it is the wrong one to make. I never shared the certainty that others expressed that kj or his predecessor PI were scum, and of the three people on my wagon, he's the one I see as most likely to be town. I was leaning scum on warriormode, and CSL I am having a hard time reading, but mostly think that the wagon on me is misdirected townies (due to an incorrect meta read of the situation and ignoring the game state at time of my votes) following desperate scum in TF.

TF's strategy of OMGUSing and then going into lurk mode until the wagon is off him seems to be working.

TF is scum, and I think there's two or three scum between VE (not going to repeat this), Cirno (because of his trying to derail the TF wagon today), CSL (because of warriormode), and Klazam (but apparently I'm the only one that thought ConfidAnon was scummy). That's five players and there's four scum, but I will have to figure out which one is town later as I would much rather lynch TF today than any of the others. Reab I'm still torn on but I've come to regret my vote on yesterday, and am now starting to lean likely town now that the "VT" thing seems like a legitimate mistake. Everyone else is town.

What are you looking for here? A bunch of chainsaws, or an opportunity to accuse me of setting up mislynches? I don't see a point in really speculating on that since I don't really see a good reason to restrict any of them from being partners with any of the others. Scum plays as scum, with the complete lack of luster in most of these wagons, I wouldn't be surprised if they spent half of every day throwing miniature busses at each other. There's really nothing but WIFOM in that route.

You're at this point accusing of moving around wagons too much, or overextending myself, while asking me to form connections that are quite frankly overextensions. You're basically saying, "please do something scummy so I can accuse you of being scummy." In this regard I must ask you to stop tunneling.

Also, you seem to have forgotten the rest of my post. What about the difference between L-3 and the L-1 that you said? One of the reasons to attack me was gone, and you just skipped it.

I don't even know what to say about the L-3/L-1 thing, I was posting from my phone, thought I remembered the vote progression but apparently I had forgotten that you were the L-3 vote. So I derped. What do you want to make of it?

I didn't vote you because you hopped on my wagon, I voted a player that I thought was suspicious after I read Empking's list and your ISO. I just mentioned the part about you hopping my wagon because I thought (and think) it was opportunistic and unjustified, NOT because the wagon was on ME. Also, your "quote" was very selective, you should quote the whole post to let the rest of the players decide better whether to vote me or not. [My vote on you] was as much of an OMGUSing as was CSL's (that means, no OMGUS) (and I believe [CSL's vote] was a vote out of desperation, and I just called you on that to see what your response would be). Also,

If you think my vote on you was OMGUS, you have to believe CSL's vote was OMGUS as well.

Also, after I voted you, you came back at me much stronger. Isn't that some sort of OMGUS as well? Reaffirming your vote on me after I voted you?

No, you omgusing me and me recognizing this for what is does not in turn also become an omgus.

There is a fine distinction between your vote for me and CSL's vote for you.

In CSL's case, CSL is simply trying to get a lynch on someone other than himself. This is desperate, but not inherently scummy, even if it is pretty weak town play.

Your vote for me, on the other hand, seemed not so much to get a lynch on someone other than yourself so much as it was to make the wagon on you look unappealing. In essence, it seemed like the primary purpose of it was to avoid letting a wagon on you develop. This strikes me as fundamentally scummy, and in essence, scummier than CSL's vote of desperation.

He's A) Not afraid to give his opinions. B) Unapologetic in his suspicions, and C) VERY logical. This is a trifecta of townitude. He's on my townlist. This was YOUR idea my guy. The only thing I don't like about his posting style is his certainty in his reads. Generally this is a good thing, but he's obviously (to me) mistaken at least where I'm concerned, so he could be mistaken in his other reads. But don't tell him that, or you're probably scum.

The problem with this is that there are two scumteams. He could just be fire mafia looking for ice, or vice versa. Your trifecta of towniness consists of signs of scumhunting, and in this game, scum need to scumhunt too.

[smargaret]

Speaking of Klazam, why do you expect him to vote you to L-2?

[smargaret]

My vote isn't moving off KJ again until he's dead. I'm as convinced he's scum as you can be, absent a confirmed-sane confirmed-cop report on a player.

[smargaret]

*sigh* Can we please lynch kj tomorrow?