Open 413 - Duck, Duck, Shoot! (Game over!)

[Om of the Nom]

'Allo there everyone!
It's 6AM now and I haven't slept, so I can't do much right now.
Tally ho everyone!

[Om of the Nom]

Although my aim is not to sleep anyway. I'm trying to pull off an all-nighter :V
Regardless, I can't get much done at this hour. I'll do stuff later today.

[Om of the Nom]

Yay~ Sup OmNom.

Yay~ Sup Gunny :3

Gah, I think I fell asleep at 8AM :P
Oh well, reading up.

[Om of the Nom]

Note: The things I'm posting are liable to have already been covered. But screw you I'm posting them anyway.

After

two votes?

Lol, why is it so special that he claimed after two votes? AcRv claimed in his first post, and there was nothing wrong with that.

despite having apparently

read

your PM, and despite both PMs being posted above?

Whoa whoa whoa. We're already assuming too much here.

What makes you say this?

By the way Phil, I'm quite distressed at your reaction to my claim. Rather than saying: "Thanks Capt. Obvious, Sgt. Duh signing out!", you said something like: "Why did you claim after two votes??".

I like this.

Okay, Phillamon's jumping at a claim this early is rather odd, I'll admit. But the fact that you confirmed by PM by posting your Role Name, without actually reading what your role is, seems unlikely. Because the "confirm by PM" is at the bottom of the PM. To get to the bottom of the PM you have to read the bit before it. Which tells you what the role does.

How is it odd?
Also, I only read my rolename unless there are significant differences to normal, or it's a role I haven't seen before. Though I guess I generally know what they are anyway :V

[Om of the Nom]

Fair enough. The claim itself was fine, hence my having jumped on you doing it so early. If you had, as you said, claimed VT, you'd be outta here. However, what you just did looks like a townslip, so UNVOTE: for now.

This sounds like backtracking. What was the townslip?

We were just arguing over the fact he got wrong the role that every townie has - so town being PGOs would be on his mind.

Don't like the way this is worded.

However, one thing does hit me - scum QT would have been filled with "how are we going to tackle these PGOs?" talk.

What makes you think this?

And so he would have known what the PGO was. And so the most likely explanation is in fact that he didn't read his role PM. So yes, he townslipped, but for a different reason.

Isn't this starting to assume too much?

They don't want to risk losing someone.

What makes you think this?

I currently have townreads on drmyshotgun, Phillammon, and Jal.

Why for each of them?

Just realised that drmyshotgun is back to null because I just realised the WIFOMfest that we can have over that...

Sounds like backtracking again.

If Jal is scum then so is drmyshotgun, and if drmyshotgun is town then so is Jal.

Don't like how this came out of nowhere.

I dunno why Jal was Town and why he is closely linked with me.

This.

Look at his post. He tried to defend you by saying we were assuming you read your PM.

Isn't that assuming too? What makes you think he was trying to defend Gunny?

If he were scum and you were town, he wouldn't have bothered, because it'd be an easy wagon. So he's probably town.
However, as scum he might want to defend you if you were buddies. So he is only scum if you are.

I agree with kondi here. This is shit logic.

I was not jumping on gunny for his PGO claim, I was jumping on his timing. Still fruitless...

What did his timing have to do with anything? This also sounds like a backtrack.

[Om of the Nom]

Lol, I'm bored already :V
I'll continue this soon.

[Om of the Nom]

unvote vote quinter

sheeping etc

Elaborate.

Because of the whole thing wherein he claimed that he thought PGOs where one shot dayvigs, therefore he either didn't read his PM and thus didn't confirm (and he did confirm), or he got a scum PM. I "jumped at him" in the traditional sense of the word, when I aggressively challenged his claim, because 1) He formally claimed at 2 votes and 2) He was claiming the role he didn't know the function of, despite having received the PM.

What makes you so sure he read the whole PM? I don't normally read the whole PM, I just read the role name. And again, what do the two votes on him have to do with anything?

AcRv

:

What makes Phill town?

You want me to explain my town reads? So scum know what they can do to make me think they're town? I'm good.

This is a new one. I call bullshit.

If he were scum and you were town, he wouldn't have bothered, because it'd be an easy wagon. So he's probably town.
However, as scum he might want to defend you if you were buddies. So he is only scum if you are.

Getting this straight:

So if I were scum, I wouldn't have bothered to defend him if he were town because it would be an easy wagon.
However, if I were scum I might defend him if we were buddies.

This is all on top of assuming that I was even defending him. This sounds like some horrible roundabout logic to make me look scummy and tie Gunny and I together.

Uhm...

despite having apparently

read

your PM, and despite both PMs being posted above?

Whoa whoa whoa. We're already assuming too much here.

... Right there you say that we are assuming too much in the case against shotgun. That's defending shotgun.

Not neccesarily, maybe he was just attacking Phillamon?

Really looks like you're trying to defend shotgun a little too much... bringing up an incorrect point trying to defend him, when we had already established that what he did was a null tell. And also denying you defended him seems off as well.

What is so incorrect about what he is saying?

VOTE: AcRv

Yeah, I'm feeling uncomfortable with Jal's defending of me. Looks like he's trying to buy Town points from me and others who see

me

as Town.

This sounds a little fishy. Elaborate please.

thanks lastsurvivor.

I thought PGO was basically Daykill Vigilante...

Vote: shotgun

you can't seriously not have read your role pm if you are town

cos of this post

Elaborate.

acrv seems town to me.

Why is AcRv town?

AcRv

:

You want me to explain my town reads? So scum know what they can do to make me think they're town? I'm good.

So you're making claims that someone is townie, but backing up this claim would be giving away secrets to the scum? Why should we believe you if you're not going to back-up your claim?

Look at it this way - why would a town member lie about a townread?

WIFOM

All you need to know is that I have no plans on voting him/her in the forseeable future.

Okay, if you end up voting them, I'll make sure to attack you for it :3

He meant as in towards the end of the day. I see what he means, but I don't think we're on the same page here Andrew.

get on my page. you see what im seeing mcqueen is doing?

What is he doing?

[Om of the Nom]

Elaborate. What in particular makes them town? What part of quinter's reasoning was crap?

[Om of the Nom]

Also sup.

[Om of the Nom]

Why are mcqueen and shotgun town?
Why was quinter's reasoning bad?

[Om of the Nom]

I DON'T LOVE YOU

[Om of the Nom]

I NEED AN ADULT! I NEED AN ADULT!

Depends, I am obvious town, but I don't know if you are scum yet. If you are scum, I'll happily 1v1 you. But if you are town I'll decline because I don't wanna die either :P

[Om of the Nom]

POTATO

[Om of the Nom]

I'M GOING TO TAKE MY DOG FOR A WALK.
I'LL TALK AGAIN IN HALF AN HOUR TO AN HOUR.

[Om of the Nom]

You are not obvious town to me. No one is, yet.

Something must be wrong in your head then. I am always super duper obv townie and that's the way I like it :3
Responding to AcRv now.

[Om of the Nom]

Okay, Phillamon's jumping at a claim this early is rather odd, I'll admit. But the fact that you confirmed by PM by posting your Role Name, without actually reading what your role is, seems unlikely. Because the "confirm by PM" is at the bottom of the PM. To get to the bottom of the PM you have to read the bit before it. Which tells you what the role does.

How is it odd?

Because when every town member is the same role, so we can assume someone claiming isn't doing it seriously.

Could you reword this please? I can't make sense of it.

We were just arguing over the fact he got wrong the role that every townie has - so town being PGOs would be on his mind.

Don't like the way this is worded.

May I ask how you'd rather have it worded? If not I'm asking anyway

The part in particular I didn't like was, "he got wrong the role that every tonwie has," to me, it sounds like you used a few choice words in a few choice places to create a bigger impact. I would have worded it like, "he misinterpreted the role that each town member has." "Got wrong," seems way too absolute to me.

However, one thing does hit me - scum QT would have been filled with "how are we going to tackle these PGOs?" talk.

What makes you think this?

Last time this setup was run we spent a good eight or nine pages disussing what I posted in my first post - the point of this setup is the amount of WIFOM caused by the fact that every player as the potential to shoot back. So scum need to know pretty quickly whether they want to play it by manipulating and no killing, or take chances with night kills.

Alright, makes sense (I knew this already, was just making sure your explanation held up).

And so he would have known what the PGO was. And so the most likely explanation is in fact that he didn't read his role PM. So yes, he townslipped, but for a different reason.

Isn't this starting to assume too much?

I don't think it's too much to assume the scum were talking about ways not to lose...

That's not what I meant. You're assuming he didn't read his role PM. Which means you aren't looking at all the other possibilities. For example, he could just be mafia playing dumb.

They don't want to risk losing someone.

What makes you think this?

Because scum aren't a fan of having members die. Well they shouldn't be, at least...

What do you think bussing is for?

I currently have townreads on drmyshotgun, Phillammon, and Jal.

Why for each of them?

Already been down this road.

Quote it please.

Just realised that drmyshotgun is back to null because I just realised the WIFOMfest that we can have over that...

Sounds like backtracking again.

That was made shortly after the original post - it was me realising I made a mistake. Believe it or not, I'm not perfect

The timing seems bad though. I interpreted it as if you realised you might be able to get a mislynch on gunny, so you put your read back to null which makes you able to jump on his wagon at a later time.

If Jal is scum then so is drmyshotgun, and if drmyshotgun is town then so is Jal.

Don't like how this came out of nowhere.

This was me saying things early game to get me moving. If you read later, you see that I realised I was wrong on this account too.

The absolutes are really bad sounding though. A much better way to say it would have been, "If Jal is scum, I'm willing to bet gunny is too, and if gunny is town the I'm betting Jal will be too."

Look at his post. He tried to defend you by saying we were assuming you read your PM.

Isn't that assuming too? What makes you think he was trying to defend Gunny?

Shooting down a case against player x is defending player x.

No it's not, as mcqueen said.

If he were scum and you were town, he wouldn't have bothered, because it'd be an easy wagon. So he's probably town.
However, as scum he might want to defend you if you were buddies. So he is only scum if you are.

I agree with kondi here. This is shit logic.

I also believe I acknowledged this later on.

Quote where you did this please.

AcRv

:

What makes Phill town?

You want me to explain my town reads? So scum know what they can do to make me think they're town? I'm good.

This is a new one. I call bullshit.

I would link to one instance to it, but that was lost in the crash... I'm sure if you looked you could find occassions where it's done. I can understand why they do it too, hence why I'm doing it. I only do it early game so scum don't give me an early town vibe and then mess with me a bit later on.

But if they start acting like that once they see your reason for your town reads, then surely that would be suspicious to you wouldn't it? It's a shit reason to not give out your town reads. You aren't just witholding information from the scum, but also from the town.

If he were scum and you were town, he wouldn't have bothered, because it'd be an easy wagon. So he's probably town.
However, as scum he might want to defend you if you were buddies. So he is only scum if you are.

Getting this straight:

So if I were scum, I wouldn't have bothered to defend him if he were town because it would be an easy wagon.
However, if I were scum I might defend him if we were buddies.

This is all on top of assuming that I was even defending him. This sounds like some horrible roundabout logic to make me look scummy and tie Gunny and I together.

Uhm...

despite having apparently

read

your PM, and despite both PMs being posted above?

Whoa whoa whoa. We're already assuming too much here.

... Right there you say that we are assuming too much in the case against shotgun. That's defending shotgun.

Not neccesarily, maybe he was just attacking Phillamon?

Then why'd he say "we"? And I believe at this point I had also posted against him.
I'll go reread this interaction, then I'll get back to you.

Really looks like you're trying to defend shotgun a little too much... bringing up an incorrect point trying to defend him, when we had already established that what he did was a null tell. And also denying you defended him seems off as well.

What is so incorrect about what he is saying?

That was the Role PM confusion which is now sorted out - at the time it wasn't, however, so I was attacking him for saying the "Confirm via PM" wasn't in the post. We have established this now too. See above.

AcRv

:

You want me to explain my town reads? So scum know what they can do to make me think they're town? I'm good.

So you're making claims that someone is townie, but backing up this claim would be giving away secrets to the scum? Why should we believe you if you're not going to back-up your claim?

Look at it this way - why would a town member lie about a townread?

WIFOM

Exactly. Saying I'm scum for not explaining my townread is WIFOM, because it can just as easily be town as it could be scum

Same can be said for any scumtell. This isn't a proper defense.

[Om of the Nom]

If he were scum and you were town, he wouldn't have bothered, because it'd be an easy wagon. So he's probably town.
However, as scum he might want to defend you if you were buddies. So he is only scum if you are.

Getting this straight:

So if I were scum, I wouldn't have bothered to defend him if he were town because it would be an easy wagon.
However, if I were scum I might defend him if we were buddies.

This is all on top of assuming that I was even defending him. This sounds like some horrible roundabout logic to make me look scummy and tie Gunny and I together.

Uhm...

despite having apparently

read

your PM, and despite both PMs being posted above?

Whoa whoa whoa. We're already assuming too much here.

... Right there you say that we are assuming too much in the case against shotgun. That's defending shotgun.

Not neccesarily, maybe he was just attacking Phillamon?

Then why'd he say "we"? And I believe at this point I had also posted against him.

Maybe the "we" meant he was attacking you and Phillamon instead of just one of you?

Really looks like you're trying to defend shotgun a little too much... bringing up an incorrect point trying to defend him, when we had already established that what he did was a null tell. And also denying you defended him seems off as well.

What is so incorrect about what he is saying?

That was the Role PM confusion which is now sorted out - at the time it wasn't, however, so I was attacking him for saying the "Confirm via PM" wasn't in the post. We have established this now too.

Reasonable enough.

[Om of the Nom]

You are not obvious town to me. No one is, yet.

Something must be wrong in your head then. I am always super duper obv townie and that's the way I like it :3
Responding to AcRv now.

Um. You claimed scum in Open 384, when I was Modding.

Because that was the most obviously pro-town gambit ever because it started a huge amount of discussion as intended. I knew what I was doing then, I didn't claim scum blindly.

Also, my stance on Jal is leaning-town right now. I haven't bothered to read past Page 3 but I'm not sure if I like his wagon. If I wasn't on AcRv I would probably be on Phillamon.

[Om of the Nom]

You are not obvious town to me. No one is, yet.

Something must be wrong in your head then. I am always super duper obv townie and that's the way I like it :3
Responding to AcRv now.

Um. You claimed scum in Open 384, when I was Modding.

Because that was the most obviously pro-town gambit ever because it started a huge amount of discussion as intended. I knew what I was doing then, I didn't claim scum blindly.

Also, my stance on Jal is leaning-town right now. I haven't bothered to read past Page 3 but I'm not sure if I like his wagon. If I wasn't on AcRv I would probably be on Phillamon.

No. Claiming scum is never pro-town, and some Mods will blacklist you for it. You're lucky I don't have problems with people fakeclaiming scum in my games. Be that as it may, not having problems with it, does not mean that it is not anti-town.

It was the most super obvious gambit and it still worked. There was no problem with it at all. I didn't even get lynched for it.

[Om of the Nom]

... I really don't want to have to go through that quote mess again with Ommy's 241, so I'm going to find another way of doing it so it's not as chaotic and annoying to write.

Because when every town member is the same role, so we can assume someone claiming isn't doing it seriously.

Could you reword this please? I can't make sense of it.

I'm saying that in a game which has two alignments, with each alignment only getting one role, claiming that early doesn't mean anything... because it doesn't remove a possibility about who has a PR or anything.

Ok, makes sense.

May I ask how you'd rather have it worded? If not I'm asking anyway

The part in particular I didn't like was, "he got wrong the role that every tonwie has," to me, it sounds like you used a few choice words in a few choice places to create a bigger impact. I would have worded it like, "he misinterpreted the role that each town member has." "Got wrong," seems way too absolute to me

Well, isn't not understanding your role getting it wrong? You can't be a little bit wrong, it's an absolute term.

There is misunderstanding, then there is getting it wrong. The word choice made it sound like he got it completely wrong. Whereas all he did was get the ability messed up.

I don't think it's too much to assume the scum were talking about ways not to lose...

That's not what I meant. You're assuming he didn't read his role PM. Which means you aren't looking at all the other possibilities. For example, he could just be mafia playing dumb.

Yes, it could be. We did decide it was null already, however, so I'm not seeing the point in continuing this.

Okay then.

Because scum aren't a fan of having members die. Well they shouldn't be, at least...

What do you think bussing is for?

You don't bus that early in a game - you bus when they made something really obvious that's going to be picked up on anyway. You don't bus someone for the heck of it. Not normally, at least.

I bus as scum all the time.

This was me saying things early game to get me moving. If you read later, you see that I realised I was wrong on this account too.

The absolutes are really bad sounding though. A much better way to say it would have been, "If Jal is scum, I'm willing to bet gunny is too, and if gunny is town the I'm betting Jal will be too."

So you don't like that I sounded too confident.

You didn't sound confident at all. It just sounded like lots of absolutes to me. I really didn't like it.

Shooting down a case against player x is defending player x.

No it's not, as mcqueen said.

Defend:

n.

To ward off, repel (an attack or attacker)

That doesn't specify who it's defending.

That's what he was doing. He was repelling a case that someone else was putting forward. By definition, that is defending someone.

But you are assuming he was defending someone in the first place.

I also believe I acknowledged this later on.

Quote where you did this please.

You quoted from the post that I said it in dude, I'm worried that you were able to miss it. But, here it is:

Although now I think about it, I do see a bit of a problem with my logic.

Eh.

I would link to one instance to it, but that was lost in the crash... I'm sure if you looked you could find occassions where it's done. I can understand why they do it too, hence why I'm doing it. I only do it early game so scum don't give me an early town vibe and then mess with me a bit later on.

But if they start acting like that once they see your reason for your town reads, then surely that would be suspicious to you wouldn't it? It's a shit reason to not give out your town reads. You aren't just witholding information from the scum, but also from the town.

Or town could be doing it because, you know, it's a TOWN thing to do, and so TOWN are naturally going to do things that TOWN naturally do.

So basically anyone who isn't following your towntells is scum. Nice to know.

Exactly. Saying I'm scum for not explaining my townread is WIFOM, because it can just as easily be town as it could be scum

Same can be said for any scumtell. This isn't a proper defense.

There are many things that town would never do that scum could do.

Like what?

Then why'd he say "we"? And I believe at this point I had also posted against him.

Maybe the "we" meant he was attacking you and Phillamon instead of just one of you?

Why don't you ask him?

Did you ask him?

Also Shattered Viewpoint is NS. I think this is his meta.

[Om of the Nom]

@Everyone: Why is the person you are voting scum?

[Om of the Nom]

Why is it scummy?

[Om of the Nom]

This was me saying things early game to get me moving. If you read later, you see that I realised I was wrong on this account too.

The absolutes are really bad sounding though. A much better way to say it would have been, "If Jal is scum, I'm willing to bet gunny is too, and if gunny is town the I'm betting Jal will be too."

So you don't like that I sounded too confident.

You didn't sound confident at all. It just sounded like lots of absolutes to me. I really didn't like it.

People use absolutes when they're confident

You were needlessly confident though. It seemed too early to be confident, especially considering noting really scummy happened.

Shooting down a case against player x is defending player x.

No it's not, as mcqueen said.

Defend:

n.

To ward off, repel (an attack or attacker)

That doesn't specify who it's defending.

I think it's pretty obvious when there was one guy under fire in the quoted post.

Stop assuming things.

That's what he was doing. He was repelling a case that someone else was putting forward. By definition, that is defending someone.

But you are assuming he was defending someone in the first place.

I already said that he was, when I quoted the definition of "defend". In fact, right above I say what defines defending, saying he was, and now you're sayinf I'm assuming he was defending someone. When I gave reason as to why he was. Looks like you're trying to keep this going longer than it needs to.

I don't remember you giving a reason for him to defend someone. Please quote it for me.

I would link to one instance to it, but that was lost in the crash... I'm sure if you looked you could find occassions where it's done. I can understand why they do it too, hence why I'm doing it. I only do it early game so scum don't give me an early town vibe and then mess with me a bit later on.

But if they start acting like that once they see your reason for your town reads, then surely that would be suspicious to you wouldn't it? It's a shit reason to not give out your town reads. You aren't just witholding information from the scum, but also from the town.

Or town could be doing it because, you know, it's a TOWN thing to do, and so TOWN are naturally going to do things that TOWN naturally do.

So basically anyone who isn't following your towntells is scum. Nice to know.

Where did I say you had to agree with it? I just said that it's not scummy to not explain town reads

Where did I say I had to agree with it? Explain your town reads please. There is nothing to hide.

Exactly. Saying I'm scum for not explaining my townread is WIFOM, because it can just as easily be town as it could be scum

Same can be said for any scumtell. This isn't a proper defense.

There are many things that town would never do that scum could do.

Like what?

Counterclaiming PRs is the first that comes to mind. Not applicable in this case however. Town do things because it's their thought process, scum do things to look like they're thinking about things. Example, town don't put up analysises which are the same as someone elses - scum do it to make it look like they're being pro-town. Town say things like "I was thinking similarly to that guy" instead of saying the same thing as that guy in a different format.

Nope, not always. I've seen town do that before.

Then why'd he say "we"? And I believe at this point I had also posted against him.

Maybe the "we" meant he was attacking you and Phillamon instead of just one of you?

Why don't you ask him?

Did you ask him?

I'm not the one who thinks that he was attacking two people. If you want to know his motives, then ask him for them, because I'm not psychic. I'm pretty certain what his motives are, that's why I didn't ask - because I thought it was pretty obvious

So, you didn't bother to ask about his motives, yet you sit there and attack him for it. Yeah, nice try.

Also Shattered Viewpoint is NS. I think this is his meta.

He is? No, that can't be right...

Yes, he is.

@Everyone: Why is the person you are voting scum?

Jal's response to pressure which later proved wrong seems off to me. Because he didn't explain why my logic was wrong for a while, and instead tried to say he wasn't defending him, claims I didn't address a point I did, and just doesn't offer anything productive in poking holes in my logic, said that voting someone you think is scum while posting reasoning isn't putting a case... he seems to not want to be labelled as doing anything relating to other players.

Examples please.

[Om of the Nom]

How are we not? You aren't even reading it.

[Om of the Nom]

The action of claiming scum as town is not pro-town, yes. But the intent of it may be pro-town.

[Om of the Nom]

Do I have to read the thread?
I've caught scum without reading the thread when it was like Day 3 or something.
What are your ideas of pro-town play?
I like how you assumed I actually read past page 3.
Quote where you responded to everything, instead of just voting me.

[Om of the Nom]

I mean seriously, that post was terribad and you should feel terribad. That was a horribly opportunistic vote on me and you know it. Why does all that stuff you said make me scum?

PEDIT: Open 394. Context was, game was stagnating and I claimed scum as an obvious gambit to both get reactions and generate discussion. They were both achieved.

[Om of the Nom]

384 sorry.

[Om of the Nom]

Yeah, um, a quick check of his meta reveals Phillamon isn't playing like the townie Phillamon I know. This plus his vote on me seem good enough for me to vote him.
VOTE: Phillamon
/inb4hetriestoaccusemeofOMGUS

[Om of the Nom]

I knew how to get the reactions, I just didn't know how to tell them apart.

[Om of the Nom]

No, it's not shit play. It just depends on how it's executed (and I admit I didn't do it the best way).

[Om of the Nom]

No it's not depending on how you play it.

[Om of the Nom]

It's not playing against your wincon if it produces discussion and reactions you can use for scumhunting. That's the whole point of claiming scum as town in the first place.

[Om of the Nom]

Yeah, sure. You're still scum no matter your excuse. What did my reaction do to your read on me?

[Om of the Nom]

Did my reaction make your read on me seem more town, or less town?

[Om of the Nom]

NS....
How could you?
I thought we were friends.....

Bastard :P (not really)

REASON FOR VOTING ME. GO.

[Om of the Nom]

Michael Thorsett -- Nobody Special (and Shattered Viewpoint)

[Om of the Nom]

NS
I SEE YOU POSTING IN FACEBOOK CHAT
GET YOUR ASS IN HERE

[Om of the Nom]

Shooting down a case against player x is defending player x.

No it's not, as mcqueen said.

Defend:

n.

To ward off, repel (an attack or attacker)

That doesn't specify who it's defending.

I think it's pretty obvious when there was one guy under fire in the quoted post.

Stop assuming things.

It is just the most likely explanation. Also, if he were attacking us/me, he would have said so. He just said "I wasn't defending anyone". That was all. If it was his intention to attack one or both of us, he'd have said so.

What makes you think that?

That's what he was doing. He was repelling a case that someone else was putting forward. By definition, that is defending someone.

But you are assuming he was defending someone in the first place.

I already said that he was, when I quoted the definition of "defend". In fact, right above I say what defines defending, saying he was, and now you're sayinf I'm assuming he was defending someone. When I gave reason as to why he was. Looks like you're trying to keep this going longer than it needs to.

I don't remember you giving a reason for him to defend someone. Please quote it for me.

Sorry, I meant a reason as to why what he did was defending him. And I am not quoting that again, I've already done it enough damned times.

Umm, if you have to constantly quote the same thing over and over again, then obviously it means it's not sufficient enough.

I would link to one instance to it, but that was lost in the crash... I'm sure if you looked you could find occassions where it's done. I can understand why they do it too, hence why I'm doing it. I only do it early game so scum don't give me an early town vibe and then mess with me a bit later on.

But if they start acting like that once they see your reason for your town reads, then surely that would be suspicious to you wouldn't it? It's a shit reason to not give out your town reads. You aren't just witholding information from the scum, but also from the town.

Or town could be doing it because, you know, it's a TOWN thing to do, and so TOWN are naturally going to do things that TOWN naturally do.

So basically anyone who isn't following your towntells is scum. Nice to know.

Where did I say you had to agree with it? I just said that it's not scummy to not explain town reads

Where did I say I had to agree with it? Explain your town reads please. There is nothing to hide.

Uh... you said you had to agree with it here:

So basically anyone who isn't following your towntells is scum. Nice to know.

If everyone is scum for disagreeing with unexplained townreads, then by that logic I should expect everyone to agree with them. Which I don't. Because you're not scum if you disagree with my town reads. You were the one assuming that. And I remember you saying something earlier...

Stop assuming things.

No, it meant that anyone who wasn't following your towntells is scum to you. Though I can see how that was a bit ambiguous.

Exactly. Saying I'm scum for not explaining my townread is WIFOM, because it can just as easily be town as it could be scum

Same can be said for any scumtell. This isn't a proper defense.

There are many things that town would never do that scum could do.

Like what?

Counterclaiming PRs is the first that comes to mind. Not applicable in this case however. Town do things because it's their thought process, scum do things to look like they're thinking about things. Example, town don't put up analysises which are the same as someone elses - scum do it to make it look like they're being pro-town. Town say things like "I was thinking similarly to that guy" instead of saying the same thing as that guy in a different format.

Nope, not always. I've seen town do that before.

Can you link it? I wish to see if they had a damned good reason for it.

I've done it before as town, though I can't remember where :V Though generally I would always end it with "tl;dr, what they said." I'm pretty damn sure other people have done it too. It's not a really good scumtell.

Then why'd he say "we"? And I believe at this point I had also posted against him.

Maybe the "we" meant he was attacking you and Phillamon instead of just one of you?

Why don't you ask him?

Did you ask him?

I'm not the one who thinks that he was attacking two people. If you want to know his motives, then ask him for them, because I'm not psychic. I'm pretty certain what his motives are, that's why I didn't ask - because I thought it was pretty obvious

So, you didn't bother to ask about his motives, yet you sit there and attack him for it. Yeah, nice try.

Well, I do love how he's sat back and let us argue about what he said. If he was town he'd break this up and tell us what he was doing. But he's been letting us rip at each other over something he could EASILY have fixed up. I'm liking my vote where it is on him even more now.

Lol.

@Everyone: Why is the person you are voting scum?

Jal's response to pressure which later proved wrong seems off to me. Because he didn't explain why my logic was wrong for a while, and instead tried to say he wasn't defending him, claims I didn't address a point I did, and just doesn't offer anything productive in poking holes in my logic, said that voting someone you think is scum while posting reasoning isn't putting a case... he seems to not want to be labelled as doing anything relating to other players.

Examples please.

Spoiler: Oh for crying out loud.

Saying I didn't address things I did:

Getting this straight:

So if I were scum, I wouldn't have bothered to defend him if he were town because it would be an easy wagon.
However, if I were scum I might defend him if we were buddies.

This is all on top of assuming that I was even defending him. This sounds like some horrible roundabout logic to make me look scummy and tie Gunny and I together.

Uhm...

despite having apparently

read

your PM, and despite both PMs being posted above?

Whoa whoa whoa. We're already assuming too much here.

... Right there you say that we are assuming too much in the case against shotgun. That's defending shotgun.

The quoted is me addressing the two points. As you can see, that whole part in the first thing I quoted from Jal is related. Yet, when he posted something against me later:

Since you didn't say anything to this part of my post:

If he were scum and you were town, he wouldn't have bothered, because it'd be an easy wagon. So he's probably town.
However, as scum he might want to defend you if you were buddies. So he is only scum if you are.

Getting this straight:

So if I were scum, I wouldn't have bothered to defend him if he were town because it would be an easy wagon.
However, if I were scum I might defend him if we were buddies.

I guess you agree with me in that you're using horrible roundabout logic to make me seem scummy and tying Gunny and I unnecessarily together.

I did address it though. He cut off the last bit. You don't belive me, click the link in the quote.

Not saying why my logic was wrong for a while:
Here, here, here.
It occured to me eventually, but never did he actually help with that.

Him saying he didn't put a case on me when he did:

I fail to see how someone misunderstanding their role is scummy in any sense, especially when the role PM is made clear to everyone. It's not a town slip either.

AcRv

:

What makes Phill town?

If he were scum and you were town, he wouldn't have bothered, because it'd be an easy wagon. So he's probably town.
However, as scum he might want to defend you if you were buddies. So he is only scum if you are.

Getting this straight:

So if I were scum, I wouldn't have bothered to defend him if he were town because it would be an easy wagon.
However, if I were scum I might defend him if we were buddies.

This is all on top of assuming that I was even defending him. This sounds like some horrible roundabout logic to make me look scummy and tie Gunny and I together.

Because the "confirm by PM" is at the bottom of the PM.

No it isn't.

VOTE: AcRv

Also, I haven't yet stated a case against you. Why do you keep saying so? I voted you because you are scummy.

I believe that if you point out scummy things and then vote someone you are in fact putting a case on them. Early in the game it may be just a weak case, BUT it's still a case.

I've pointed out too many times the part where he denied defending drmyshotgun.

As for not wanting to not be assiociated with players: He denied defending shotgun, as I said. He denied putting a case on me. He never said that he was attacking Phillimon and/or myself, but if he wasn't defending drmyshotgun then he must have been.

Okay then.

[Om of the Nom]

Also AcRv is now town, plus he has kinda convinced me of Jal scum.
VOTE: Jal
That is L-1 I believe.

[Om of the Nom]

Lol.

[Om of the Nom]

I am always obnoxious.
It comes with my age :3

[Om of the Nom]

OMG OF COURSE YOU ARE OBNOXIOUS YOU ARE SUCH A STUCK UP PRICK I HATE YOU SO MUCH
jks, <3

Also as far as I remember, I've already posted my reads.

[Om of the Nom]

If I haven't posted my reads, I'll post some tomorrow.

[Om of the Nom]

Yeah, I know it wasn't aimed directly at me. I just answered anyway because I'm a narcissist at heart <3

[Om of the Nom]

Nah, from what I remember, my reads are all over the place right now. The night phase will give me some time to read over the game, plus I have a long weekend coming up.

[Om of the Nom]

Well I don't have solid reads right now except for AcRv town.
I'll post more after I restart my laggy ass computer :P

[Om of the Nom]

Okay, my other reads are Phillamon is prob-scum and Gunny is obvtown. Everone else is basically null because I wasn't paying attention to them.
Also considering Jal has been posting in other games instead of this one means we probably lynched a scum.

[Om of the Nom]

I armed myself last night.
Also I completely forgot to reread, but I'm V/LA so I can't do it today. I'll have to do it tomorrow after school.

[Om of the Nom]

I did it for a reason.

[Om of the Nom]

Not going to say what it was.

[Om of the Nom]

Okay, V/LA ended unexpectedly so I am happy, will read up after catching up in my other games.

[Om of the Nom]

thanks lastsurvivor.

I thought PGO was basically Daykill Vigilante...

Vote: shotgun

you can't seriously not have read your role pm if you are town

If he didn't read it he wouldn't have known his alignment.

Vote: andrew

Last few posts have been fake.

No elaboration whatsoever.

Vote: Jal

I don't like his tone at all. It's way too snarky. His push on AcRv and attack for an OMGUS vote is bad.

No elaboration whatsoever.

Pedit: I did say I was going to be inactive, but your attack on me for "hopping on wagons without reasoning" is completely false, brundibar.

It's completely true. One line of a shit excuse to hop on a wagon doesn't equal reasoning.

I think Phillammon is town and Jal's vote on him was fishy.

No elaboration whatsoever.

I agree with the notion that Om2theNom is probably town for his claim and I think mcqueen's reaction was towny.

Obviously he superskimmed the thread so much that he wasn't even able to tell that we were talking about a different game.

Why would you claim the status of your gun? Seems like a desperation effort to look town under pressure.

Vote: Shattered Viewpoint

This sounds like what I would try and say if I were scum trying to find a quick suspect to park my vote on at the start of the day. Also note no elaboration whatsoever. Since when was he even getting pressure in the first place?

Also I promised "more later", which I have and will continue to deliver.

Still waiting...

I really hope you are not going off your shitty logic at the beginning of this game.

Why is it shitty?

Quinter is full of one-liners and wagon hops. His numerous attempts to discredit the cases against him solidify a scumread on him from me. He has promised content but has done literally jack-shit. Also he is barely reading the game too.
VOTE: Quinter

[Om of the Nom]

I would link to one instance to it, but that was lost in the crash... I'm sure if you looked you could find occassions where it's done. I can understand why they do it too, hence why I'm doing it. I only do it early game so scum don't give me an early town vibe and then mess with me a bit later on.

But if they start acting like that once they see your reason for your town reads, then surely that would be suspicious to you wouldn't it? It's a shit reason to not give out your town reads. You aren't just witholding information from the scum, but also from the town.

Or town could be doing it because, you know, it's a TOWN thing to do, and so TOWN are naturally going to do things that TOWN naturally do.

So basically anyone who isn't following your towntells is scum. Nice to know.

Where did I say you had to agree with it? I just said that it's not scummy to not explain town reads

Where did I say I had to agree with it? Explain your town reads please. There is nothing to hide.

Uh... you said you had to agree with it here:

So basically anyone who isn't following your towntells is scum. Nice to know.

If everyone is scum for disagreeing with unexplained townreads, then by that logic I should expect everyone to agree with them. Which I don't. Because you're not scum if you disagree with my town reads. You were the one assuming that. And I remember you saying something earlier...

Stop assuming things.

No, it meant that anyone who wasn't following your towntells is scum to you. Though I can see how that was a bit ambiguous.

Disagreeing with people isn't scummy

That was you who said that :V I said the bolded bit at the end.

As for Quinter... I'm hesitant to go on him because last time I played with someone not posting content they promised they flipped town... so I'm really hesitant to vote there at the moment.

But have there been any other town flips the previous times you did this? Why does a town-flip previously have an impact on a scum-flip this game?

[Om of the Nom]

I am hugely affected by my emotions (how I play for the whole game is normally affected by my mood at the beginning). Also AtE works like a motherfucking charm on me.

I don't give a fuck whether or not someone who did that flipped town in another game. Don't pussy out and just vote Quinter.

[Om of the Nom]

Oh, L-1.
Don't vote Quinter yet.

[Om of the Nom]

^No elaboration whatsoever.
Here, I'll elaborate as to why it's bad.
Not elaborating means you can throw out blank statements and appear to have reasoning when you really don't.
I'd be just like me calling you scum and not even having a case or a reason to do so.

[Om of the Nom]

VOTE: Drmyshotgun
Those last few posts. So full of nothing. The way I read it sounded like scum, so my gut is going crazy on you.

[Om of the Nom]

No, I would definitely have shot someone. You know I like my games to be fast (ohbby).

SV is also a fine lynch, and I will be willing to let you live another day to get SV lynched if you join me on his wagon.

[Om of the Nom]

Because SV has done jack-shit this game and that hammer was very opportunistic and not explained at all.

Also yeah, I'm scum because I voted you. Wow, such a compelling case.

[Om of the Nom]

You know my town meta is to vote off gut frequently.

[Om of the Nom]

I vote off gut in LYLO. Why can't I do it in D3?

[Om of the Nom]

SV and possibly one of mcqueen/brundibar (been getting bad gut reads from them too).

[Om of the Nom]

Why?

[Om of the Nom]

Because it doesn't matter whether it's you or SV that gets lynched. It hurts you as scum but not me as town, because either way we get a scum lynch.

[Om of the Nom]

I'm surprised I didn't die. I actually claimed that I used my shot.

[Om of the Nom]

I don't know. I wasn't really thinking about that :V

[Om of the Nom]

Alright, calling it now. Gunny/SV/Mcqueen scumteam.
That was seriously one of the worst reasons for justifying your vote that I have ever seen. AcRv is in no way a policy lynch, and your assertion that scum become idiots under pressure is stupid and has no base or evidence to back it up.

Mcqueen wagon go.
VOTE: mcqueen

[Om of the Nom]

I'm still not seeing any reason other than "You are sucm because you voted me."

[Om of the Nom]

Lol mcqueen. How am I faking town? I'm just falling into my lazy town meta right now :V
That was a seriously bad reason for an OMGUS vote.

[Om of the Nom]

I am scumhunting. Can't you see it? I already found you and SV and Gunny.

[Om of the Nom]

Regardless, asking me to scumhunt today will not work because right now I feel like an ignorant dick who just really wants to troll everyone and is too lazy to do anything. Which means I'll probably be like this till the end of the day.

[Om of the Nom]

Okay then.
VOTE: Shattered Viewpoint
SV today, Mcqueen tomorrow, Gunny the day after. Town win.

[Om of the Nom]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: mcqueen
Wow, nice try lining up my lynch.

Guys, SV is confirmed town if mcqueen flips scum. I suggest we lynch mcqueen now instead of losing a potential townie.

[Om of the Nom]

Um, just vote Shattered Viewpoint, since Om of the Nom is "so obviously town," he much have his reads right. So let's just see about how right he actually is, eh?

This is a horrible logical fallacy. It basically translates to "Om is confident so he must be right." Which is a horrible thing to assume. I know my reads aren't always the best.

If he's right (about Shattered Viewpoint), you all can bandwagon me tomorrow, hence lynching me. If he's wrong, then we all bandwagon Om of the Nom tomorrow, hence lynching him.

Again, this is lining up lynches. If you are scum, you know that SV is town so you can get me lynched tomorrow. And if you knew SV was town you would be able to safely say the last sentence without a fear of being lynched.

[Om of the Nom]

Om of the Nom seems like a good lynch today

Why? I haven't heard you elaborate on me at all today.

[Om of the Nom]

It also works best when the victim is told they are at L-1.

SV, if you are town you will vote mcqueen with me.

[Om of the Nom]

Because this way mcqueen and SV can't be scum. If mcqueen is scum with SV, his plan will result in him getting lynched and also SV getting lynched. If they both are scum then that's a huge disadvantage to scum. If SV is town, then mcqueen can safely say that everyone should go after me the next day if I'm wrong, because he knows SV will flips town and I will to, which scores him two mislynches.

[Om of the Nom]

If they are both town, then boy they both suck horribly.

[Om of the Nom]

My wanted lynches weren't affecting each other based on their flips. Mcqueen specifically said that if SV flips town I die next. I just said I want all those lynches no matter what.

[Om of the Nom]

Mcqueen said to lynch me if SV flips town. I just said to lynch them regardless. Mcqueen would have known that SV was going to flip town and that would have scored him a mislynch on both of us (assuming you would have listened and lynched me the next day). My one does not depend on anyone flipping town or scum, which means I don't have a specific plan.

[Om of the Nom]

Just vote mcqueen.

It would help if I used the right account :P

[Om of the Nom]

Lynching him will just do more damage.

If we lynch mcqueen, and he flips scum. SV is essentially cleared and confirmed. Which is why I advise lynching mcqueen over SV. I think at this point, mcqueen has a higher chance of flipping scum than SV, which is why mcqueen is a safer bet.

[Om of the Nom]

Why not?

[Om of the Nom]

SV will be confirmed if mcqueen flips scum.
Am I not allowed to change my mind?

[Om of the Nom]

I like how that's the only thing you can say to defend yourself.

[Om of the Nom]

Anyone who knows me knows I like to dive into things without thinking. I would have shot someone no matter what last night. I'd have rather taken my chances instead of not doing anything. Why don't you go and tell me why I would no kill instead of shooting?

Also I like how you accuse me of lining you up for the game winning mislynch. If your plan goes right, I would be the game winning mislynch. But I'm trying to get rid of you today, not tomorrow.

I am so fucking obviously town this game and anyone who isn't scum and knows my meta can verify that. I am playing to my town meta (lazy-ish town meta) this game and I'm not playing to my scum meta.

I get NK'ed all the time now (I never used to cause I used to suck lol). I got NK'ed after two days of playing a game after replacing in N2 because I was unlynchable. Just because you suck in general, doesn't mean I can't keep pushing you for your horrible play.

[Om of the Nom]

I swear if you just fucking hammered....

Mcqueen dies today (if that wasn't a hammer) or tomorrow (if that was a hammer).

[Om of the Nom]

If you care about getting me lynched then you will repeat yourself for me.

If you want a defense that isn't meta oriented then how about this?
I am town because I have made an active effort to find the scum and I am trying desperately to get them lynched as hard as I can. I am not lining up lynches to score myself a win and I am not bullshitting up cases to make my reads "appear" to be scum.
Is that good enough for you?

Who said anything about policy lynches? You're play this game is hugely scummy and I am being pro-town and trying to get you lynched for it.

[Om of the Nom]

Also, why do you constantly defend yourself with "my play is always scummy at first glance"?

[Om of the Nom]

I told you all mcqueen was scum.
Why does nobody ever listen to me?

Congrats Phillamon for breaking your winning streak. You did pretty well, as you were the only scum member I didn't suspect in any way (I had a gut read on brundibar).

[Om of the Nom]

Well I never said I am always right.
But seriously, mcqueen was obvscum, my explanation was completely right.

[Om of the Nom]

Nope. It didn't in any way.
What I was saying was that if mcqueen was lynched, and flipped scum, then SV was basically confirmed town. But if SV flipped town, mcqueen was most likely scum.
What he was saying was that if SV got lynched and flipped town, I should go next because I was supposedly so "confident" in my read of him that I must have been faking it.
What I said was completely true and is logical. What mcqueen said was absolute bullshit and strawmanned my meta and my actions.