Open 420: Medical Mafia - That's all, folks!

[Mortontfrh]

Vote: RachMarie

- Found scum already, let's string her up and make this a quick one.

[Mortontfrh]

@ Venmar why did you put Robo at L-3 in RVS?

Why do you question Venmar putting Robo at L-2 but not Robo putting you at L-2?

[Mortontfrh]

whoops miscounted the votes Robo is at L-2 and I am at L-3.

@ Mort it was the WAY he did it just sliding on after 2 other votes on Robo. I was questioning to get discussion going.

Explain to me the difference between Post #9 putting you at L-2 and Post #12 putting Robo at L-2.

[Mortontfrh]

This early, I am somewhat suspicious of everyone and I certainly can understand if others are suspicious of me and not get my knickers in a twist over it. My focus is getting discussion going and pegging the other players so I can figure out who is scum.

That doesn't answer my question at all. You were given two nearly identical situations. You opted to pursue Venmar's vote over Robo's nearly identical vote - Why?

[Mortontfrh]

I am not done with Robo yet. his vote on me was very much OMGUS. But I figured I would see what panned out from Venmar first.

So let's break this down then. Robo not only put someone to L-2 (Which you obviously find questionable giving your pressure towards Venmar) but on top of that you think that his OMGUS is problematic and yet you still opted to pursue Venmar instead of Robocop?

My participation has been minimal here, I will step it up today when I get a chance. Thankfully there is not too much for me to read.

The thread had been open for less than 24 hours and you're already commenting on your own inactivity - Why?

I don't really have any other place to put my vote at this moment but I don't think Rach deserves it. Especially now we are getting into some actual discussion.

UNVOTE: Rach

No, Rach definitely deserves your vote.

*the last fake I meant suspicious.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Jackal

This is the best wagon that can happen now.

Not scum hunting at all and only coming online to vote every now and then falls perfectly in line with Jackal's town meta. I've actually never seen a scum game from him though, so

Jackal - can you provide a link to your most recent completed scum game?

[Mortontfrh]

You tell Rach to Vote me then tell me to vote Rach? You never said anything about Rach being scum either. What is this i dont even

When did I ever tell Rach to vote for you?

[Mortontfrh]

Sorry. Typo.

"Pursue". Not "Vote".

Ok. When did I ever tell Rach to pursue you? Way to avoid the actual question though.

[Mortontfrh]

Dear lord, you interpreted that as asking Rach to pursue voting you instead of asking her why she

didn't

pursue you? There's a pretty big difference there, and I thought that was pretty obvious in my post.

[Mortontfrh]

It was more implied that she should be pursuing me instead of Venmar. It wasn't directly said. Or at least, thats what it sounded like.

I don't see how that was implied at all. I was asking her why she was selectively scum hunting, I wasn't telling her to pursue anyone.

[Mortontfrh]

@Mod: Can we get a prod on Rach and Shadow? /sigh...

[Mortontfrh]

I'm not sure why you think it had to be an either/or type of situation. If I see two people doing something that I find questionable, i'm going to question both of them. I'm not going to question one of them and have their answers suffice to justify my problems with the other person. That makes no sense, it's selective scumhunting and it's scummy as hell.

[Mortontfrh]

If her intentions were solely to get discussion going then this post outlining how she was planning on questioning Robo further at some later point in time wouldn't make sense. If she was just trying to get discussion going and trying to transition out of RVS, why would she justify her pressure by saying that she will (at a later point in time) drag back up a RVS issue?

[Mortontfrh]

Those that have played with me before (which is I believe 4 of the players as well as our mod) know this is my style, lurky and popping in only when I have something important to say or to make a vote.

Why are you trying to self meta yourself already? This seems extremely obscure...

[Mortontfrh]

Ya but if that is just his 'style', as you put it, wouldn't it just be a null tell?

But I do agree it is annoying.

Not in this case, there's no established meta that this is how he normally plays.

Incidentally I suspect the account is an alt and that whoever is playing this alt knows exactly what they are doing.

How is this indicative of his alignment? Are you saying that he created this alt account just so that way if he got a scum role he could post in an annoying fashion in order to be deceptive?

Vote: ZachRulez

- I really can't understand why everyone is ignoring Rach's behavior, but until people stop letting scum lurk then my vote on her is just dead weight and this is a wagon I can get aboard.

[Mortontfrh]

No I don't think that it was planned upon alt creation. I do think now that he's in the game the reason for posting the way he has been is strategic. If you postulate it's strategic, can you make a reasonable argument for this posting style being pro-town?

I don't see how it's strategic at all. I think he came into this game planning on typing like that regardless of alignment - that's kind of how niche alt accounts work. What world do you live in where people create an alt account like that and then make their posting decision dependent on their alignment?

I can't so your point of view so imma vote you. Good thinking there man.

Yeah, that's absolutely 100% the reason I voted you. It had absolutely nothing to do with your scummy OMGUS followed up with a half-baked follow up explanation.

[Mortontfrh]

Yeah, a player is posting under a self imposed post restriction as an excuse to do very little and it's not a scumtell at all!

You're implying that this was a conscious choice after getting his role. You're aware that this means that you think that he created an alt account with that name, received his role PM, and just said "Hey, I guess i've got a nice name that will allow me to post in a convoluted manner just to confuse people!".

Sure it's an infinitesimally small possibility, but it's a far stretch from the logical conclusion that this posting style was the premise behind his alt account to begin with. The fact that you jump to such a stretch in the first place just to validify your OMGUS vote (Which had some poor reasoning to begin with) is incredibly scummy.

Moving forward - Why do you see the lack of scum hunting from Time Traveling Scumhunter problematic but you make no comment on the lack of scum hunting from Rach, Shadow, Jackal or literally half of the player base? Are you implying that it's only scummy to not scum hunt if you do it in an obscure manner?

[Mortontfrh]

Yeah I'm annoyed now because I have to depart from the way that I usually play and make an effort to actually explain something that should have been obvious the first time I raised it as a point.

It's not the aspect of how he's choosing to post, it's the actual content of what's in the post. (Which aside from the tunnelvision on me is a big giant black hole of nothing.)

A demonstration:

Stuff about Zach: Blah blah blah blah, lots of stuff.

Stuff about anyone or anything else: Big fat 0.

Presume I get lynched and flip town, what is my lynch going to tell you about what Mr. Time Traveler thinks about anything else in this game? Absolutely nothing. THAT'S THE POINT I'm making here.

The thematic style of what he's posting really isn't relevant. My assertion that he's using it to hide a black hole of nothing is.

So you're conceding the fact that the way in which he's posting isn't relevant, then why did you even bring it up in the first place? If your contention is with his tunneling then explanations like this and this are just moot points that you threw in there just to make your non-existent case look a little bigger. To clarify further: In both of those posts you're saying that the posting style itself is what's problematic but now you're back tracking into saying that you think the content within those posts is what the problem is.

In fact, this is your first mention of you having a problem with him tunnel visioning on you.

If that was your major contention with his play style why are you just mentioning it now and not when you actually voted for him?

This is really the first major trinket of anything I've really had to go on. My reads have been in flux because there's really been a whole lot of nothing going on, and I'm disliking what Time Traveler is doing because all he's doing is focusing on one of the most active players in the game, (IE: Me) which is going to have a net effect of encouraging players to continue doing exactly what they are doing.

So you think that scum would look for the most active player that they can get into an argument with? What purpose does that serve in an extremely lurk heavy game? Explain to me how this is actually a scum tell, because i'm not seeing it.

[Mortontfrh]

Rach - Link to me a single game i've played with you that i've tunneled you when you didn't flip scum.

[Mortontfrh]

Are you saying you're incapable of linking to a single game where i've tunneled you and you didn't flip scum?

So which part of your ass did you pull this from then?

Mort tends to have tunnel vision. He almost always assumes I am scum even when proven wrong.

[Mortontfrh]

2 - This one which she flipped scum in. And this one where I made one comment about her from the time she replaced in until she died the first night.

[Mortontfrh]

Morton, I think you have a very different idea of what I'm attacking vs what I'm actually attacking. I can see where you're getting the conclusion, but I'm having a hard time trying to bridge the separation we apparently have on the matter.

I'm not conceding anything I actually posted, I just think you're in a different place on what I'm posting vs what I'm actually trying to convey.

I can see where you're coming from in your most recent posts, I just think it's more likely that you're backtracking out of your contradiction rather than actually having that mindset going into your vote. Regardless the chance that you're being genuine is enough for me to get back on board Rach, especially with her awful reappearance into this game.

Mort tends to have tunnel vision. He almost always assumes I am scum even when proven wrong.

To further emphasize what I said above, this is just flat out not true.

Meanwhile I want to hear more from Robo, now that Venmar spoke. I really do have a method to my madness even if it is not fully apparent off the bat.

Hear more from him regarding what? Completely ignoring the fact that this was something that could have actually been addressed when it was relevant, just overtly stating "I want to hear more from him" isn't actually trying to hear more from him. I mean if you actually wanted to hear more from him you know that you could actually ask him a question directly, right?

Unvote

Vote: RachMarie

Please don't let her scuminess in her last couple of posts get ignored please.

[Mortontfrh]

My plans are shaping up for me being a little busy over the next couple of days hanging out with my roommates with 4th of July. Just in case it renders me hungover or without computer access; V/LA

[Mortontfrh]

Piece of shit computer...
My plans are shaping up for me being a little busy over the next couple of days hanging out with my roommates with 4th of July. Just in case it renders me hungover or without computer access;

V/LA until the 5th

.

[Mortontfrh]

First things first, let's talk about this whole tunneling situation. Obviously I disagree that i'm tunneling, but the more important question is -

Why the fuck does it even matter?

Is tunneling scummy? Does it invalidate anything that i've said? If not, why did you even bring it up Rach? Why do you insist on attempting to debunk my character rather than my case. You say i'm tunneling, and maybe I am - But you're refusing to actually address issues that i've brought up in your play. You still haven't addressed the later part of Post #117 as well as Venmar's objection in the subsequent post as well.

Popping in to

VOTE: RachMarie

I've seen her as town and scum (I was also in that newbie game that Morton linked where she flipped scum) and am getting mostly scum-vibes from her posts so far.

Can you explain why you tried to self-meta yourself at a point in the game where you were under no pressure at all?

I am sorry for the confusion I did not mean that he only tunneled on me, I meant he tunnels on players. However I think he is probably town.

This is interesting considering you initially stated that I tunneled on you and didn't even talk about my play style in general.

@Mort: You really are throwing your vote around. What gives? You were voting Zach and then the next thing I know you are calling him town.

What in the world is this? I've changed my vote twice this game. I had my initial RVS, which I changed to Zach and then I changed it again back to Rach. Where do you live in when shifting my vote twice is considering throwing my vote around, especially when I give ample reasoning behind both of my votes. I also never even came close to saying that Zach is town, I said that Rach was a higher priority based on how scummy her reappearance into the game was.

P.S. - Both Zach and Jackal have changed their votes a lot more than me. Why do you only choose to address me "throwing around votes" when other people are shifting their votes much more frequently?

[Mortontfrh]

First things first, let's talk about this whole tunneling situation. Obviously I disagree that i'm tunneling, but the more important question is - Why the fuck does it even matter? Is tunneling scummy? Does it invalidate anything that i've said? If not, why did you even bring it up Rach? Why do you insist on attempting to debunk my character rather than my case. You say i'm tunneling, and maybe I am - But you're refusing to actually address issues that i've brought up in your play. You still haven't addressed the later part of Post #117 as well as Venmar's objection in the subsequent post as well.

[Mortontfrh]

I just explained that I never called Zach town. Were did you get that mindset from?

Also, is this not a succinct enough of an explanation for my vote change?

I can see where you're coming from in your most recent posts, I just think it's more likely that you're backtracking out of your contradiction rather than actually having that mindset going into your vote. Regardless the chance that you're being genuine is enough for me to get back on board Rach, especially with her awful reappearance into this game.

[Mortontfrh]

Can we get a replacement for FightingShadow please?

@Jackal - Can you explain why you tried to self-meta yourself at a point in the game where you were under no pressure at all? And what was scummy enough about that post that warranted voting?

V/LA (More LA than V) til July 21 but I will post as much as I can. I should have done this sooner with all that is going on.

2 week V/LA.../sigh

[Mortontfrh]

Outside of tunneling, can someone explain to me what's scummy about any of TTS' posts? Because i'm not seeing a damn thing wrong with any of them.

[Mortontfrh]

I'll take an explanation from anyone but Rach until she actually starts answering my posts. Thanks.

First things first, let's talk about this whole tunneling situation. Obviously I disagree that i'm tunneling, but the more important question is - Why the fuck does it even matter? Is tunneling scummy? Does it invalidate anything that i've said? If not, why did you even bring it up Rach? Why do you insist on attempting to debunk my character rather than my case. You say i'm tunneling, and maybe I am - But you're refusing to actually address issues that i've brought up in your play. You still haven't addressed the later part of Post #117 as well as Venmar's objection in the subsequent post as well.

[Mortontfrh]

ITT:

Rach selectively scum hunts.

Rach gives awful justification for selectively scum hunting but never actually follows through on that justification.

Rach commments on people sheeping onto wagons and later sheeps a L-1 vote onto TTS.

Rach provides misinformation and refuses to explain why, even if that information was true, is even relevant to the game.

Rach says that Venmar and Jackal are the scummiest and then sheeps a vote onto TTS

Rach puts someone at L-1 without commenting on it being an L-1.

Can someone explain to me for the love of fucking god how TTS is at L-1 for "tunneling" when Rach has literally dropped MULTIPLE scum tells and is only sitting on two votes?

[Mortontfrh]

First things first, let's talk about this whole tunneling situation. Obviously I disagree that i'm tunneling, but the more important question is - Why the fuck does it even matter? Is tunneling scummy? Does it invalidate anything that i've said? If not, why did you even bring it up Rach? Why do you insist on attempting to debunk my character rather than my case. You say i'm tunneling, and maybe I am - But you're refusing to actually address issues that i've brought up in your play. You still haven't addressed the later part of Post #117 as well as Venmar's objection in the subsequent post as well.

[Mortontfrh]

Understandable. I can definitely see how it is hard to answer a simple paragraph in under 4 days.

[Mortontfrh]

Oh the irony.

@Jackal - Can you explain why you tried to self-meta yourself at a point in the game where you were under no pressure at all? And what was scummy enough about that post that warranted voting?

[Mortontfrh]

Why did you unvote just because Rach is at L-1?

[Mortontfrh]

Jackal do you take pride in your ability to be absolutely useless?

[Mortontfrh]

That is unless some people want to join me on the jackyll wagon?

Jackal can come tomorrow, or better yet if we can figure out who our Vig is we can just shoot him... God I really hope i'm the Quack, I want to do the honors.

[Mortontfrh]

1. Because the scum can hide in the shadows while you are focused on someone who is town. (If you are town).

2. Because it is a good way for scum to appear like they are actively scum hunting (if you are scum).

Except you already said that you think i'm town, so tell me what do you think i'm missing from other peoples play? You seem to think that i'm somehow only isolated in on you and ignoring the rest of the game, so please enlighten me on what i'm overlooking.

This response was awful, along with your pseudo "I'm not going to claim but I just claimed post". If there's a nurse, I suggest you counterclaim considering how unimportant your role is.

Unless someone counter claims...

unvote

,

Vote: Jackal711

[Mortontfrh]

Why is everyone talking about some non-existent counter claim? What scum would put themselves in a 1v1 D1 for a role that is less effective than the rest of the roles save for the fact that they are confirmable.

We need TTS to declare whether he's countering or not, and I'm waiting for that before I do anything.

^Posts like this are bad. You're saying your going to wait for a counter claim which has a pretty much non-existent chance of happening before you actually decide where to go? Why do you even need a potential counter claim before moving forward? It seems pretty clear cut if an incredibly unlikely counter claim ever does happen we are going back on the Rach wagon.

Deadline is not an issue yet, we have plenty of time.

5 days (At the time of you posting this) isn't particularly plenty of time.

And that's all you have to say?

VOTE: TTSH

Someone popping into the thread and providing no content...Gee...Sound familiar?

Why I would prefer a Jackal lynch over a TTS lynch:

First of all, i'm not getting aboard a TTS wagon until someone can actually provide some evidence for TTS scum. As far as I can see, no one has actually pointed out a single scummy thing of his. All I have seen is "This is scummy; Vote" "Oh god this post is bad; Vote"

Moving forward as towards why Jackal is a much more preferable lynch:

I made a huge mistake bringing up Jackals Meta in #53 and i'll take credit for that huge fault in my play. However, Jackal unnecessarily parrots his meta. I've attempted to get him to address why he felt the need to do this multiple times but it's fallen on deaf ears.

The major problem with Jackals play is that he's well aware of his Meta and he's overplaying it so fucking hard.

Yes, Jackal's meta is usually useless as fuck just hopping in and doing nothing. However, Town Jackal still does provide something useful every now and then when he feels it's applicable. The fact that he's refusing to even do the bare minimum of awful Jackal play is a testimony towards him trying to overplay his useless town meta.

[Mortontfrh]

I'm doubtful that Jackal will ever pull his head out of his ass, but there's no benefit from quick hammering him either.

[Mortontfrh]

Just to parrot what a few others have been saying; putting everyone on Rach is a terrible idea. I haven't had the opportunity to look into past MM games yet, but one of the obvious strengths of the set up comes later on when people can actually start figuring out what type of doctor they are. Just placing everyone on Rach just turns this game into 6 VT + 1 Mason/Innocent Child set up, which obviously doesn't favor town at all.

The nurse role is probably the least important role out of anyone save for the fact that it's confirm-able. I don't see how keeping one confirmed town alive is worth giving up every PR we have and allow scum to pick someone off at their whim without worrying about the massive wifom that they would have to deal with otherwise.

Hmm, I guess Jackyll doing what he did would be pretty dumb to do as scum in a setup like this.

Are you implying that it would be a smart thing for town to do in a setup like this? Explain to me why you think that it's a smart town gambit but a dumb scum gambit.

Also FudUzn are you always this non-committal in your games?

[Mortontfrh]

Morton, Jackyll is dumb either way. But I think it would be insanely dumb for Jackyll-scum to do that.

And yes, on Day 1 I generally am very wishy washy and non-committal. I tend to tighten up as the game goes on.

That doesn't answer the question at all, perhaps I wasn't clear enough. You seem to think it was a dumb thing for scum to do, so i'll ask again - What was the

town

motivation for Jackal self voting and how was it a

town

driven action.

[Mortontfrh]

Also Yellowbounder just mentioned it, but would it be bad to say each of our night actions? To me it could really help trying to figure out who's who here(ie who's scum).

I think a stronger benefit is allowing us to actually figure out how to use our night actions properly rather than floundering around blind again, but yeah it could be a decent way to find scum too. Regardless, I would prefer to be one of the last ones to claim my target.

[Mortontfrh]

And Morton, why do you want to claim last?

Stating why I want to claim last and actually claiming now would serve the same purpose, would they not?

[Mortontfrh]

I'm saying that asking me to claim now and asking me why I don't want to claim now are in fact the same exact things.

Yes, it's more beneficial for scum to claim last. As such, I think it's important to hold off on my claim to make sure that scum doesn't claim last.

[Mortontfrh]

No.

[Mortontfrh]

Interesting, I was not aware.

I already stated that I have no intentions of claiming before everyone else has, why do you think my stance would suddenly change?

[Mortontfrh]

Aww how cute, the person who hasn't claimed their action is saying it's scummy to not claim their action.

[Mortontfrh]

If it is because you protected Jackal, then just say it. Because at this point that is all I can see you would hold back for.

If you're smart enough to make that assumption, why would you continually hound me to state it out right? Yes, I targeted Jackal.

I will say I hate how stubborn Morton is getting here, don't be obtuse just for the sake of being obtuse.

Being obtuse for the sake of being obtuse would imply that there was no motive for me withholding my claim. Do you really think I was just being stubborn solely to drag out the game?

[Mortontfrh]

Didn't make sense to hide that information? How so? Town shouldn't care whether or not I was withholding information or not considering they had no reason to do anything other than claim their night action out right. Scum on the other hand could only benefit from having more information when deciding what they should claim.

[Mortontfrh]

You should have simply claimed your action when you were popcorned. You had no reason to not claim the action.

I had a perfectly valid reason not to claim. You can disagree with that reason all you want, but it's pretty silly to sit here and act like I withhold my claim for no reason.

Are you saying that disagreeing with the majority is considered to be scummy now?

I would like to know what was your motivation behind a Jackal protect, i think he was agreed by the majority to be town, and wasn't really deemed to be too important to be protected. Were you hoping to kill him? In which case you did? I am sceptical of scum trying to kill Jackal.

I don't think he was considered to be town at all, I don't know where you got that notion at all. In fact, I think I made a decent case for a wagon on him which was swept under the table pretty quickly. I assumed that everyone would take the actual doctor approach to their night actions, so I decided to veer towards the other course and treat my role on the vig/weak doctor side of things. I went into the night ideally killing Jackal, and worse case scenario coming out dead with 2 dead towns and a breadcrumb that I was targeting Jackal in 192.

Mort - His refusal to not send in an action intrigues me. I would like to see his response before categorizing him. I think he is town though.

I'm really confused here...Is this a typo or something?

[Mortontfrh]

First of all, a policy lynch wasn't the basis for my vote on Jackal at all. It's quite sad that you got that from #221.

Second of all and more importantly, you say that my push for Jackal was scummy because he was an easy target. This means that as scum, I would go into N1 and kill an easy target instead of pushing for his lynch the next day?

[Mortontfrh]

- Sad, why is it sad? It was probably the only post I saw that showed your explanation for Jackal scum. Isn't lynching someone based off of how they play and on the basis that they are useless ( which, by your words, is his meta ), a policy lynch?

You're aware that almost 100% of lynches are based off of how someone plays, right? And no, it wasn't based on his meta at all. I'm well aware of his meta, the entire premise of my wagon was that he was trying to oversell the fuck out of his meta to buy town cred. I really don't know how I could have made that any clearer.

Venmar, that was a wonderful post.

This actually made me laugh, cause it really wasn't.

[Mortontfrh]

Whether or not someone is overselling it or not is up to debate.

Are you going out of your way to just say shit or what? This is the second time that you've made a statement that literally just says how Mafia is played. Yes, his overselling his meta was up for debate. That's why I tried to fucking push for a wagon on him,

because I thought it was fucking scummy.

Considering you called Jackal useless and doing nothing, i can't see how you can determine the difference between him playing up to his meta and overselling it if he plays as if he is useless. It was clear you were incapable of seeing the difference in how he plays because he flipped town, regardless if you were a doctor who killed him or not.

What the fuck is the point of even saying this? No shit I was wrong, thanks for pointing that out sherlock.

- This WAS a policy vote/lynch because it was on the basis of how he plays. The fact he was possibly "overselling" his meta does not change the fact he was playing up to his meta.

How does him overselling his meta not change anything at all? Do you honestly think that someone faking their entire play isn't scummy at all?

Congratulations on ignoring this part of my post:

Sorry, you were actually expecting me to respond to your argument about the plausibility of Jackal being a night kill target?

[Mortontfrh]

- I didn't think he was faking his play at all, in fact he was paying perfectly up to his meta, but you obviously couldn't tell the difference between him playing up to it or overplaying it. The point still stands, how can you tell the difference between someone playing up to their meta or overplaying it, especially if their meta is to be useless and not give out information.

If you had these contentions with the wagon why didn't you mention them in the

8 posts

you made after I posted my wagon? Sure is nice being able to buy town cred debunking a wagon after the flip instead of when it's actually presented, isn't it?

- No, but i was expecting you to address it over making a useless comment on FuDuzn's remark on my post. I explained to you why Jackal could be a hard lynch target, which can explain why the mafia would kill him. Mafia usually want to kill players that won't attract attention to the members of the mafia, a safe kill. Jackal pretty much fits that criteria since he is "useless" like you call him.

Yeah man, Mafia's #1 concern is someone who doesn't do a single lick of scum hunting, self-votes, and bogs down the entire town with his horrendous play.

[Mortontfrh]

- I actually did show my disapproval of a Jackal lynch right here:

That's completely irrelevant towards the fact that apparently you had some major gripes with my vote on Jackal that you didn't care to address until after Jackal flipped town. If you can nit pick my wagon D2, you should have been able to do it D1. What changed between now and then, other than the fact that you got to see Jackals flip before actually trying to pry into my reasoning for voting him? You had ample time to do so as demonstrated by your multitude of different posts after I stated why I would prefer a Jackal wagon.

Also incredibly note worthy:

Now, with TTS and Jackal both ending up dead, I am starting to rethink some of my reads. Both of them were the strongest scum reads and wagons on Day 1, both flipped town.

It is also worth noting that Jackal was a easy lynch target, and I think scum were bound to have jumped on it for a easy lynch.

- Because I think you realized a lot of people realized people weren't comfortable with lynching him based off of his meta. I also doubt you would have given it a second try to revive a dead/dying wagon on a player without drawing unneeded attention to yourself.

These three posts contradicting each other are truly just a work of art. You go from acknowledging that Jackal was a the second largest wagon D2, stating that his flip required a reread, to stating that he was an easy lynch

and then all of a sudden you don't think that people were comfortable lynching him?

Perhaps we live on opposite sides of the spectrum, but I certainly wouldn't place the second largest wagon (Your words of course, not mine) to be on a non-viable lynch list.

- Doesn't that make him a good mislynch for the mafia...? Doesn't that also make him a good safe, low profile kill for the mafia...? Sure he might be wanted to be kept around, but he is going to become a easy mislynch, which is pretty good for the mafia, no?

I don't even know what you're trying to say here given your last sentence completely contradicts every point I think you're trying to make.

Vote: Venmar

[Mortontfrh]

- What were we doing Day 1? After the Jackal wagon we were frocusing on TTS.

Yes, while conveniently ignoring my push for a counter wagon on Jackal. And then subsequently trying to buy town cred for debunking a wagon post-flip.

- Look back for a second and tell me where i said Jackal was the second largest wagon? Look back, and tell me. Now. Also, a lot of that post involves you twisting my words into something they are not, GOOD FOR YOU.

I literally quoted all three relevant posts, are you just skimming over my posts now? I even quoted post 282 which explicitly states your understanding of Jackal being the second largest wagon:

Now, with TTS and Jackal both ending up dead, I am starting to rethink some of my reads. Both of them were the strongest scum reads and wagons on Day 1, both flipped town.

- Obviously you think you are princess who is polishy clean of all crimes. I still think you are town so why are you attacking me so hard? I think you are town because I rarely see scum argue with others like this, so i think this is a town vs town debate.

See this is the good part, because I don't give a flying fuck what you think about me because I think you're scum. The difference between me and you is that I don't just push random shit around just to look like i'm scum hunting. I may be a princess, but you're trying way to hard to put that crown of confirmed town on your head prince.

[Mortontfrh]

- Slip of the tongue?

Slip of the tongue where?

- I didn't say "second largest wagon". Dafuq you talking about? Also doesn't change the fact you twisted my words.

Are you being intentionally obtuse? You stated that Jackal was one of the two biggest wagons D2, which means he was either the largest leading wagon or he was the second largest wagon. How is this so difficult to understand? Do I need to quote your post for the third time where you state that Jackal/TTS were the two largest wagons D1?

Also, in that same quote you state twice that I should just magically accept you as town.

Here:

so i think this is a town vs town debate.

and here:

I still think you are town so why are you attacking me so hard?

Both of these imply that I don't have any reason to push a lynch on you while ignoring the fact that i'm pushing a lynch on you because you're scum.

[Mortontfrh]

The whole thing with me having to quote it a third time was kind of rhetorical, but apparently you are incapable of even reading your own posts. Here's hoping that you can understand your own posts the third time I quote it!

Now, with TTS and Jackal both ending up dead, I am starting to rethink some of my reads. Both of them were the strongest scum reads and wagons on Day 1, both flipped town.

[Mortontfrh]

...was my original point really that unclear about his contradiction stating that Jackal wasn't a likely lynch target despite his recognition that there was a strong wagon on him D1?

I'll highlight the two posts again:

Exhibit A when discussing the viability of a Jackal night kill he says that Jackal wasn't a likely lynch target because people weren't comfortable lynching him based off of his meta:

- Because I think you realized a lot of people realized people weren't comfortable with lynching him based off of his meta. I also doubt you would have given it a second try to revive a dead/dying wagon on a player without drawing unneeded attention to yourself.

Exhibit B at the start of the day recognizing that Jackal was one of the two largest wagons (I also highlighted another quote where he says that Jackal was an easy lynch, which completely contradicts the above quote as well).

Now, with TTS and Jackal both ending up dead, I am starting to rethink some of my reads. Both of them were the strongest scum reads and wagons on Day 1, both flipped town.

I really thought that #384 pointed out this contradiction quite succinctly.

[Mortontfrh]

Yeah, Mort, I have no idea what you're talking about.

I wasn't comfortable lynching Jackal based on his meta either, and a bandwagon of votes doesn't result in actual town consensus.
Venmar hasn't really contradicted himself.

Looking over my posts again you're probably right.

Unvote

Mort is pretty obvtown, btw. The fact that he wished to conceal his action doesn't make sense at all from scum POV. Scum would definitely like to make sure that they state their action clearly in order to not be trapped by misinformation. Plus he is making genuine attempts at scumhunting (Even if they are weird and false). He is trying. I believe him to be town.

I mean there's that...Or there's the fact that my role is confirm-able and Fud/Yellow still opted to vote me.

Vote: FuDuzn

[Mortontfrh]

I'm either Vig or Scum, so i'm pretty confirmable.

[Mortontfrh]

There isn't a vig in this game.

Also you have to remember that the scum is lying about their actions. You may simply be a quack doctor with scum shooting Jackal. There is plenty of possibilities.

You aren't confirmed at all.

I didn't say I was confirmed, I said I was confirm-able. I mean, I guess there's the possibility that i'm the Naive doctor, but I find that to be highly unlikely. Either scum can let my kill go through and confirm me as Vig, or they can no kill in which case they are letting town direct their night kills.

@Fud - What scum motivation would there be for me to open the day and say that i'm not going to claim my action? Also, how is stating that i'm almost certainly a vig scummy?

[Mortontfrh]

Aw fuck I just now realized there is a CPR doctor in this game, scratch everything about being a vig.

[Mortontfrh]

Oh you read 434? I couldn't tell from the fact that you ignored it.

P.S look at 442 and tell me that isn't scum.

[Mortontfrh]

- "Protecting" Yellowbounder during the night, but wanting to lynch him the next day.

It's scummy for Zach to push a lynch on their night protect target but Fud gets a free pass in your book. Noted.

[Mortontfrh]

I've never actually seen a game where everyone was so keen to lynch for "reasons" instead of an actual case. No one would actually give a case for TTS, Fud won't give one for me, and now he won't give one for Zach and everyone just seems to accept this willy nilly?

The funniest part is that Fud says that his vote on me is based on Logic instead of the gut vote on Zach. My favorite logic votes are the ones that you can't explain but just throw down a blanket "Just look at his play" as justification. Solid logic vote right there.

[Mortontfrh]

And Mort you are probably correct in that my 'case' on you was probably more about I hated your style of play and that it was clearly anti-town, but that doesn't always equal scum. But, not sure why you don't think I made a case. Your posts seemed so blatant that I felt that it would be obvious to everyone why I thought you were scummy.

There's a couple of problems with this. First of all, if my posts were so blatant then wouldn't that make it easy for you to make a case? And yet here you spent the better part of the day waffling with "I don't need too, it should just be obvious".

Adding on to that, what made your case suddenly dissolve into thin air and now you think that my play was just anti-town? You said it yourself, I didn't even defend any of your accusations, Robo did. Are you saying that you think someone else' defense of my play was sufficient to drop your scum read on me?

Hey Robo there are other players in this game besides me ya know.

Fuck no you don't get off that easily just because you dropped the wagon. You're STILL skirting around the "Why" you thought i'm scum. How many times has Robo asked you to actually explain your thought process and you just ignored it? What, you think that just because you dropped the wagon means that you don't need to answer for your earlier posts regarding my wagon?