Open 420: Medical Mafia - That's all, folks!

[Venmar]

FuDuzn, can you explain to me why am i scum again?

[FuDuzn]

Now, with TTS and Jackal both ending up dead, I am starting to rethink some of my reads. Both of them were the strongest scum reads and wagons on Day 1, both flipped town. There was also a partial wagon on Rachmarie, who turns out to be the nurse. Now obviously a doctor. I suspect that some of the people pushing these wagons could be scum because not a single town has been put under a wagon yet.

I am going to look over the wagons and try to spot any scum manipulation if possible.

Well my first instinct reading this post was that it screamed fake. And hey, how is that looking over the Day 1 wagons going? Forget about that already?

And please explain the last sentence in the first paragraph please, reading it over again it almost seems like a slip.

[Venmar]

Well my first instinct reading this post was that it screamed fake. And hey, how is that looking over the Day 1 wagons going? Forget about that already?

- Why does it scream fake? And no, i did not forget about that, i simply didn't post my thoughts about it. I'll oblige you and post my thoughts about each of the three wagons after this post.

And please explain the last sentence in the first paragraph please, reading it over again it almost seems like a slip.

- It's not a slip. What i meant by that is that TTS, Jackal, and Rachmarie were all wagon'd during day 1, all of them going under L-2 or L-1 at some point, and two of them flipped town, and the third was a confirmed nurse. I made a pretty bad typo there though, it should read " because not a single scum has been put under a wagon yet ".

[FuDuzn]

So how exactly would you know who is town and who is scum?

[FuDuzn]

So how exactly would you know who is town and who is scum?

Wait, read that again. I get what you mean now.

[Mortontfrh]

You should have simply claimed your action when you were popcorned. You had no reason to not claim the action.

I had a perfectly valid reason not to claim. You can disagree with that reason all you want, but it's pretty silly to sit here and act like I withhold my claim for no reason.

Are you saying that disagreeing with the majority is considered to be scummy now?

I would like to know what was your motivation behind a Jackal protect, i think he was agreed by the majority to be town, and wasn't really deemed to be too important to be protected. Were you hoping to kill him? In which case you did? I am sceptical of scum trying to kill Jackal.

I don't think he was considered to be town at all, I don't know where you got that notion at all. In fact, I think I made a decent case for a wagon on him which was swept under the table pretty quickly. I assumed that everyone would take the actual doctor approach to their night actions, so I decided to veer towards the other course and treat my role on the vig/weak doctor side of things. I went into the night ideally killing Jackal, and worse case scenario coming out dead with 2 dead towns and a breadcrumb that I was targeting Jackal in 192.

Mort - His refusal to not send in an action intrigues me. I would like to see his response before categorizing him. I think he is town though.

I'm really confused here...Is this a typo or something?

[Robocopter87]

Indeed there is a typo.

send in an action ought be, "reveal his action"

Dunno what the heck I was thinking.

Sorry.

[Venmar]

Votecount 1.07

RachMarie (4) - Mortontfrh,

Venmar

, Zachrulez,

Jackal711

Time Traveling Scumhunter (2) - yellowbounder, RachMarie
Zachrulez (1) - Time Traveling Scumhunter
Jackal711 (1) - FuDuzn
Robocopter87 (0) -

none

FuDuzn (0) -

none

Mortontfrh (0) -

none

yellowbounder (0) -

none

Venmar (0) -

none

No Lynch (0) -

none

Not voting (1) - Robocopter87

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

RachMarie is V/LA until 21st July

The deadline is in (expired on 2012-07-19 04:21:01).

- This is the Vote Count with the four people who voted for RachMarie, making her claim Nurse and practically getting confirmed as such. Two players who i don't know the alignments of are on this wagon, Morton and Zach. If i had to pick one of these two to be scummy, it would be either, although it could be possible that both are town.

Votecount 1.11

Time Traveling Scumhunter (5) -

RachMarie,

yellowbounder

, Venmar, Jackal711,

Zachrulez
Jackal711 (2) - Mortontfrh, Robocopter87
Zachrulez (1) - Time Traveling Scumhunter
RachMarie (0) -

none

yellowbounder (0) -

none

Robocopter87 (0) -

none

FuDuzn (0) -

none

Mortontfrh (0) -

none

Venmar (0) -

none

No Lynch (0) -

none

Not voting (1) - FuDuzn

Time Traveling Scumhunter,

Doctor

, has been lynched.

It is now Night 1. Deadline: (expired on 2012-07-20 13:12:23)

- This is the vote Count where TTS was lynched. Two people who i don't know the alignment of are on this wagon. One overlap with the Rachmarie wagon, ZachRulez. If i had to pick one of these two to be scum, it would be Zach simply because he was on the RachMarie wagon as well. ZachRulez started out with a big scum read on TTS, but then makes time and reason to switch to a RachMarie wagon, makes her claim, and returns to his TTS wagon.

------

There was no official Vote Count for the quick and random wagon on Jackal. He was on L-1 however, here are the people who voted for him below:

: FuDuzn, Mortonfrh, Robocopter,

Jackal

- This doesn't tell us much since Jackal put himself at L-1. However, Morton overlaps with the Rachmarie wagon. From these three, i personally find Robocopter scummy, not exactly from this vote count, but rather what happened later. It is also worth noting that Jackal was a easy lynch target, and I think scum were bound to have jumped on it for a easy lynch. This would ideally point to Morton being scum for overlapping over the Rachmarie wagon. Seeing as Morton's reasoning for voting Jackal seems to be orientated around the fact that Jackal is useless by nature and by following his meta, and it looks more like a policy lynch than a scum lynch, which is bad reasoning.

------

- The first two wagons point to Zach being scummy for being on both wagons, and points away from Yellowbounder from being scum. Now i do realize I was on the Rach and TTS wagon as well, but this is all from my perspective. By my logic, I would also be scummy, i realize that. It also may be a bit early to start doing a wagon analysis, but I found it very suspicious that three townies were all put under L-1 on Day 1. From these wagons. For all i know, Zach and Morton are town and the scum are actually hiding the YB, FuDuzn, and Robocopter group.

- I realize this post may look wish-washy, but FuDuzn wanted to see what i got from my wagon analysis, and this is what I have. My current scum reads are Zach, Morton, and Robocopter. I also may need to ISO FuDuzn and Yellowbounder, because I feel like i am overlooking or missing them in my rereads. I look forward to FuDuzn becoming his useful self as he always claims to be more useful after Day 1.

[Mortontfrh]

First of all, a policy lynch wasn't the basis for my vote on Jackal at all. It's quite sad that you got that from #221.

Second of all and more importantly, you say that my push for Jackal was scummy because he was an easy target. This means that as scum, I would go into N1 and kill an easy target instead of pushing for his lynch the next day?

[Venmar]

First of all, a policy lynch wasn't the basis for my vote on Jackal at all. It's quite sad that you got that from #221.

- Sad, why is it sad? It was probably the only post I saw that showed your explanation for Jackal scum. Isn't lynching someone based off of how they play and on the basis that they are useless ( which, by your words, is his meta ), a policy lynch?

Second of all and more importantly, you say that my push for Jackal was scummy because he was an easy target. This means that as scum, I would go into N1 and kill an easy target instead of pushing for his lynch the next day?

- Because I think you realized a lot of people realized people weren't comfortable with lynching him based off of his meta. I also doubt you would have given it a second try to revive a dead/dying wagon on a player without drawing unneeded attention to yourself.

[FuDuzn]

UNVOTE:

Venmar, that was a wonderful post. And there is a bit of mea culpa on my part since I did misread your post that was the crux of my reasoning to vote you right off the bat. I do need to take a step, but your zach read is intriguing to me.

[Mortontfrh]

- Sad, why is it sad? It was probably the only post I saw that showed your explanation for Jackal scum. Isn't lynching someone based off of how they play and on the basis that they are useless ( which, by your words, is his meta ), a policy lynch?

You're aware that almost 100% of lynches are based off of how someone plays, right? And no, it wasn't based on his meta at all. I'm well aware of his meta, the entire premise of my wagon was that he was trying to oversell the fuck out of his meta to buy town cred. I really don't know how I could have made that any clearer.

Venmar, that was a wonderful post.

This actually made me laugh, cause it really wasn't.

[Venmar]

You're aware that almost 100% of lynches are based off of how someone plays, right? And no, it wasn't based on his meta at all. I'm well aware of his meta, the entire premise of my wagon was that he was trying to oversell the fuck out of his meta to buy town cred. I really don't know how I could have made that any clearer.

- I see.

I made a huge mistake bringing up Jackals Meta in #53 and i'll take credit for that huge fault in my play. However, Jackal unnecessarily parrots his meta. I've attempted to get him to address why he felt the need to do this multiple times but it's fallen on deaf ears.

The major problem with Jackals play is that he's well aware of his Meta and he's overplaying it so fucking hard.

Yes, Jackal's meta is usually useless as fuck just hopping in and doing nothing. However, Town Jackal still does provide something useful every now and then when he feels it's applicable. The fact that he's refusing to even do the bare minimum of awful Jackal play is a testimony towards him trying to overplay his useless town meta.

- Explain to me how this reasoning is not dependent on Jackals meta? Trying to oversell your meta is still, in a sense, acting to your meta. Whether or not someone is overselling it or not is up to debate. Considering you called Jackal useless and doing nothing, i can't see how you can determine the difference between him playing up to his meta and overselling it if he plays as if he is useless. It was clear you were incapable of seeing the difference in how he plays because he flipped town, regardless if you were a doctor who killed him or not.

- This WAS a policy vote/lynch because it was on the basis of how he plays. The fact he was possibly "overselling" his meta does not change the fact he was playing up to his meta. The only thing stopping me from voting you right now is the fact you could be a Quack/CPR doctor who killed Jackal, and scum tried to kill someone one of us protected. But this is hard to tell because Rach and Robo didn't use their actions.

This actually made me laugh, cause it really wasn't.

- Funny, coming from the guy who i called scum in the very same post. Weird.

----

Congratulations on ignoring this part of my post:

Second of all and more importantly, you say that my push for Jackal was scummy because he was an easy target. This means that as scum, I would go into N1 and kill an easy target instead of pushing for his lynch the next day?

- Because I think you realized a lot of people realized people weren't comfortable with lynching him based off of his meta. I also doubt you would have given it a second try to revive a dead/dying wagon on a player without drawing unneeded attention to yourself.

[Mortontfrh]

Whether or not someone is overselling it or not is up to debate.

Are you going out of your way to just say shit or what? This is the second time that you've made a statement that literally just says how Mafia is played. Yes, his overselling his meta was up for debate. That's why I tried to fucking push for a wagon on him,

because I thought it was fucking scummy.

Considering you called Jackal useless and doing nothing, i can't see how you can determine the difference between him playing up to his meta and overselling it if he plays as if he is useless. It was clear you were incapable of seeing the difference in how he plays because he flipped town, regardless if you were a doctor who killed him or not.

What the fuck is the point of even saying this? No shit I was wrong, thanks for pointing that out sherlock.

- This WAS a policy vote/lynch because it was on the basis of how he plays. The fact he was possibly "overselling" his meta does not change the fact he was playing up to his meta.

How does him overselling his meta not change anything at all? Do you honestly think that someone faking their entire play isn't scummy at all?

Congratulations on ignoring this part of my post:

Sorry, you were actually expecting me to respond to your argument about the plausibility of Jackal being a night kill target?

[yellowbounder]

Sorry, you were actually expecting me to respond to your argument about the plausibility of Jackal being a night kill target?

I'm not liking this, or your earlier slow-claim, or the aggression.

VOTE: Mortontfrh

[Zachrulez]

Jackal was probably a CPR Doctor or Paranoid doctor victim, i didn't see why anyone would protect him, or why the mafia would kill him.

Still depends, Morton looks like a decent target for the mafia, or he could be scum himself. We need more target claims first. But i do know that i am not scum.

Those theories for Morton scum sure start looking nice once Morton gets some heat don't they?

[Venmar]

How does him overselling his meta not change anything at all? Do you honestly think that someone faking their entire play isn't scummy at all?

- I didn't think he was faking his play at all, in fact he was paying perfectly up to his meta, but you obviously couldn't tell the difference between him playing up to it or overplaying it. The point still stands, how can you tell the difference between someone playing up to their meta or overplaying it, especially if their meta is to be useless and not give out information.

Sorry, you were actually expecting me to respond to your argument about the plausibility of Jackal being a night kill target?

- No, but i was expecting you to address it over making a useless comment on FuDuzn's remark on my post. I explained to you why Jackal could be a hard lynch target, which can explain why the mafia would kill him. Mafia usually want to kill players that won't attract attention to the members of the mafia, a safe kill. Jackal pretty much fits that criteria since he is "useless" like you call him.

----

- I'll be honest with you, your reactions to my post and my answers are awfully aggressive and harsh, which is kind of a change from the normal stubborn Morton i think we most knew at the beginning of this game. I don't know your meta very well, but I might have to read up on your meta, because i am not liking your reactions, they look scummy. Frankly i can't bring myself to vote for you because i still want to see more from Zach and Robo, my other scum reads, because like I said, your night action is one of the only things making me think you could be town. ( Quack/CPR Doctor )

Vote: ZachRulez

- You have yet to really say much. I will make a subsequent most about what I think about your Day 2 activity.

[Zachrulez]

Meanwhile you post a wall that contains bandwagon analysis which is the refuge of scum, and make other posts that ride on Morton after the fact about his criticism of Jackal and how the whole overplaying his meta point was wrong. It's a whole thing if "you should have known better" filled in with the power of hindsight! Yee haw!

[Zachrulez]

Oh, and activity overview says I have made the most posts of any player in this game.

How's that for not saying much?

[Venmar]

I'm not really that interested in trying to figure out doc actions too much, the tree of possibilities is simply far too complex. (Venmar's speculation was based on some false premises that I felt the need to debunk.)

- What have you done so far to this post? Right, you just made some small list of night actions by everyone, which quite frankly just looks like an attempt to look active, and pester YB about popcorning Rachmarie. As town, I find focusing on a player because they chose to popcorn someone you disagree with instead of other things like analysis or scumhunting just comes off as a weird focus for town, sounds more like scum trying to make up shenanigans. The thing is, you have a town read on Morton and Robocopter, but yet you still act as if they are scum when you address Yellowbounder about his popcorn.

That makes me more comfortable with the idea of today's lynch being between Yellowbounder and Venmar. (I have town reads on Mort and Robo.)

Vote: Venmar

- Are you voting me because not being paranoid is a scummy thing? You seem to sheep and agree with FuDuzn about how he says we should return to old fashioned scumhunting, but instead of doing just that you choose to follow his train of thought, sheep his idea, and vote for me, without doing what you agree was a good thing. ( Scumhunting )

PEdit: Hilarious!! I vote you and throw flak on you and all of the sudden here you are turtling into a overly defensive shell. how is this not scummy?

[Venmar]

Meanwhile you post a wall that contains bandwagon analysis which is the refuge of scum, and make other posts that ride on Morton after the fact about his criticism of Jackal and how the whole overplaying his meta point was wrong. It's a whole thing if "you should have known better" filled in with the power of hindsight! Yee haw!

- Congratulations, you are trying to make me look worse by predicting something i wasn't planning on doing.

Oh, and activity overview says I have made the most posts of any player in this game.

How's that for not saying much?

- That doesn't say anything, it just means you're more active. All your telling me in this post is that # of posts = Pro-Town, which is not true at all. If you look into your Day 2 posts, you didn't say much at all, and what you did was you followed FuDuzn and contributed in the doctor analysis that i did, which you called scummy. Also note that this post and yours before it, are in no way saying much.

[Mortontfrh]

- I didn't think he was faking his play at all, in fact he was paying perfectly up to his meta, but you obviously couldn't tell the difference between him playing up to it or overplaying it. The point still stands, how can you tell the difference between someone playing up to their meta or overplaying it, especially if their meta is to be useless and not give out information.

If you had these contentions with the wagon why didn't you mention them in the

8 posts

you made after I posted my wagon? Sure is nice being able to buy town cred debunking a wagon after the flip instead of when it's actually presented, isn't it?

- No, but i was expecting you to address it over making a useless comment on FuDuzn's remark on my post. I explained to you why Jackal could be a hard lynch target, which can explain why the mafia would kill him. Mafia usually want to kill players that won't attract attention to the members of the mafia, a safe kill. Jackal pretty much fits that criteria since he is "useless" like you call him.

Yeah man, Mafia's #1 concern is someone who doesn't do a single lick of scum hunting, self-votes, and bogs down the entire town with his horrendous play.

[Zachrulez]

I'm not really that interested in trying to figure out doc actions too much, the tree of possibilities is simply far too complex. (Venmar's speculation was based on some false premises that I felt the need to debunk.)

- What have you done so far to this post? Right, you just made some small list of night actions by everyone, which quite frankly just looks like an attempt to look active, and pester YB about popcorning Rachmarie. As town, I find focusing on a player because they chose to popcorn someone you disagree with instead of other things like analysis or scumhunting just comes off as a weird focus for town, sounds more like scum trying to make up shenanigans. The thing is, you have a town read on Morton and Robocopter, but yet you still act as if they are scum when you address Yellowbounder about his popcorn.

How is focusing on that fact not scumhunting? You're trying to defeat the points I'm making from my point of view when I'm attacking how his actions don't make sense from his.

It's not even about the fact that he was potentially trying to set up a hypothetical scumbuddy to claim last. (That's only ONE of the possibilities.) There's a much larger point here in that from HIS point of view... HIS... not mine, he should be wanting one of Robo or Mort to claim after him. Popcorning Rach to claim next makes 0 sense from a town perspective.

Let me draw a little map here for you. If he's town, he doesn't know their alignment, but he can be pretty confident in Rach's. In that situation it makes a hell of a lot more sense to ask one of them to claim, especially when you understand the benefits of popcorning.

If he's scum, then of course there's the possibility that his scumbuddy hasn't claimed yet, and popcorning Rach means that there's a chance his buddy can claim last. But see, that also ignores the fact that his buddy (Which would be you based on who I am finding scummy at the moment.) has already claimed and from a scum perspective he really doesn't care who claims next so he just fired off Rach's name for the hell of it. (With my suspicions I am favoring the latter ATM)

Anyway, that would be how it makes more sense from a scum perspective. Yes I know there's the argument that he just didn't put a lot of thought into it as town, but I weigh that as a lesser possibility than the scum side of the equation given the post he made about the benefit of popcorning.

If you can't see that, then you just DON'T want to see it.

That makes me more comfortable with the idea of today's lynch being between Yellowbounder and Venmar. (I have town reads on Mort and Robo.)

Vote: Venmar

- Are you voting me because not being paranoid is a scummy thing? You seem to sheep and agree with FuDuzn about how he says we should return to old fashioned scumhunting, but instead of doing just that you choose to follow his train of thought, sheep his idea, and vote for me, without doing what you agree was a good thing. ( Scumhunting )

PEdit: Hilarious!! I vote you and throw flak on you and all of the sudden here you are turtling into a overly defensive shell. how is this not scummy?

My vote on you is based on how heavily setup and bandwagon analysis is influencing your scumhunting. Both of these methods are a great way to paint someone as being scum without actually having concrete positions behind them. (For example your assertion that it was unlikely Jackal was the scum kill and how easily that position shifted to being more critical of Morton once heat came his way.) Basically I am saying that I am reading your play as fake scumhunting.

As for being defensive. Yes, when someone says you are scum you are going to defend yourself from those attacks. You don't see me going "OMG look how defensive Venmar is getting, so insanely scummy". Calling defensiveness scummy is a way to just push a lynch in a manner that keeps people from looking at both sides of the equation.

[Zachrulez]

Meanwhile you post a wall that contains bandwagon analysis which is the refuge of scum, and make other posts that ride on Morton after the fact about his criticism of Jackal and how the whole overplaying his meta point was wrong. It's a whole thing if "you should have known better" filled in with the power of hindsight! Yee haw!

- Congratulations, you are trying to make me look worse by predicting something i wasn't planning on doing.

This is not predicting, it is reacting. My reaction is that your attacks on Morton are not coming from a position of actually thinking he is scum but are coming from finding him to suddenly be a very nice target for a lynch.

Oh, and activity overview says I have made the most posts of any player in this game.

How's that for not saying much?

- That doesn't say anything, it just means you're more active. All your telling me in this post is that # of posts = Pro-Town, which is not true at all. If you look into your Day 2 posts, you didn't say much at all, and what you did was you followed FuDuzn and contributed in the doctor analysis that i did, which you called scummy. Also note that this post and yours before it, are in no way saying much.

I'm not saying # of posts = Pro-Town. I'm saying I'm more active than you're making me out to be, and that you're using a spat of less active play from a period of massclaim to promote that image.

[Venmar]

How is focusing on that fact not scumhunting? You're trying to defeat the points I'm making from my point of view when I'm attacking how his actions don't make sense from his.

It's not even about the fact that he was potentially trying to set up a hypothetical scumbuddy to claim last. (That's only ONE of the possibilities.) There's a much larger point here in that from HIS point of view... HIS... not mine, he should be wanting one of Robo or Mort to claim after him. Popcorning Rach to claim next makes 0 sense from a town perspective.

Let me draw a little map here for you. If he's town, he doesn't know their alignment, but he can be pretty confident in Rach's. In that situation it makes a hell of a lot more sense to ask one of them to claim, especially when you understand the benefits of popcorning.

If he's scum, then of course there's the possibility that his scumbuddy hasn't claimed yet, and popcorning Rach means that there's a chance his buddy can claim last. But see, that also ignores the fact that his buddy (Which would be you based on who I am finding scummy at the moment.) has already claimed and from a scum perspective he really doesn't care who claims next so he just fired off Rach's name for the hell of it. (With my suspicions I am favoring the latter ATM)

Anyway, that would be how it makes more sense from a scum perspective. Yes I know there's the argument that he just didn't put a lot of thought into it as town, but I weigh that as a lesser possibility than the scum side of the equation given the post he made about the benefit of popcorning.

If you can't see that, then you just DON'T want to see it.

- Fine, i get your point about popcorning. But it doesn't explain the fact that YB could have only popcorn'd to three people, Rach, Morton, and Robocopter. All three are town reads, so i can't find why this is such a important factor you have the need to hone in on.

My vote on you is based on how heavily setup and bandwagon analysis is influencing your scumhunting.

-Funny, I started bandwagon analysis AFTER your vote, so clearly that wasn't the basis for you vote. I also have seen bandwagon analysis used by town and effectively catch scum, i'm sorry if I said i would look over something and i followed through on it when i was prodded to show what my results are.

- You being defensive is fine, but those two posts were TOO defensive, which i don't find really townie from my perspective. And i am not fake scumhunting, you are still trying to act as if ALL i am doing is bandwagon and setup analysis, which i obviously moved on from to you and Morton. I am trying my best to scumhunt and find scum for town, so stop trying to discredit me.