Open 419 Diffusion of Power - Game Over

[IceGuy]

VOTE: drmyshotgun

I know you're an alt of somebody, but I don't know whose alt you are.

[IceGuy]

Cops and docs should only claim if they have a result that makes claiming worthwhile.

Keep in mind a claim means "you can kill somebody else, I've already spent my shot".

[IceGuy]

Also,

I would also suggest that, should a cop and doc have the same night, they should both claim (or at least make their claims easy for each other to deduce, and then the doc auto-protects the cop. Do note this ONLY applies if a cop and doc share the same night, as that should garauntee an investigation. If the doc in question shows him/herself to be particularly townie I suppose it's not bad to risk them not shooting the cop.

how the fuck would that work?

[IceGuy]

In a game where you only get one shot on one specific night? Regardless of whether or not you act, you're effectively a VT for the rest of the game afterwards.

Yes, and we shouldn't tell scum who's a VT and who is a 1-shot cop or doc.

Also, I only care for it to be considered IF AND ONLY IF we ever have a cop and doc with the same night. It allows for a garaunteed investigation (scum can't shoot the cop because of the doc protect). Or what, exactly, are you objecting to?

And how are we supposed to find out without revealing it if there isn't both a cop and a dog?

[IceGuy]

You still haven't told us how you want cops and docs of the same night to find each other without revealing them when there aren't both of them.

Or why we should waste docs on protecting claimed cops instead of letting them protect freely and hoping the cop doesn't get shot.

[IceGuy]

VOTE: Voidedmafia

[IceGuy]

We don't really have a way to check claims. Scum can safely claim any role since a counterclaim means nothing.

[IceGuy]

IceGuy, I stated quite plainly when I first mentioned the "same night cop/doc" idea that it should only be considered if such a thing comes up, and I already gave up the idea. Why are you voting me?

Because you should know better.

[IceGuy]

Cops should claim the day there night's coming up (e.g., N1 cop should claim right now, N2 cop should claim tomorrow, etc.)

NO.

[IceGuy]

Shut the fuck up with the claiming ideas. Nobody claims. There is absolutely no benefit to town for somebody claiming any role right now, be it D1 cop or N5 doc.

[IceGuy]

So we just don't let the cop claim and don't take the 33% chance, but the 10% chance. Simple as that.

[IceGuy]

It gives hypothetical docs a better target though, and means the scum have to risk no-killing if they wanna bump of cops (which they do). I'm pretty sure that the resulting WIFOM and risk management benefit town a lot more than they do scum.

33% probability of killing the current cop. 'Nuff said.

[IceGuy]

No claiming at this point period.

[IceGuy]

Iceguy: Do you have any reads on anyone yet?

Obviously I do since I have a non-random vote placed.

[IceGuy]

tl;dr, no I don't have a read on anyone.

How about you read the game for a change.

[IceGuy]

Nah, not reading the claim discussion.

VOTE: Om of the Nom

[IceGuy]

I don't think you're scummy. I think you're annoying.

[IceGuy]

Maybe.

[IceGuy]

Are you fucking serious?

Maybe I am, maybe I'm not.

[IceGuy]

Feel free to.

[IceGuy]

I don't have a problem with bad plans. I have a problems with bad plans coming from people who should know better. Especially when those plans have a glaring mistake and are based on hoping people read it, don't realize the flaw, and claim fast. Even more so when, after the plan being ripped to shreds, they keep posting stuff like "if you're not an N1 cop, don't claim", implying they want N1 cops to claim so they can just kill them off immediately.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Voidedmafia

[IceGuy]

Just so I am clear, Iceguy, were you voting Om just out of frustration? You hinted that it may have been for a deeper reason.

Mostly out of frustration, but also to see how he'd act. While first gut instinct is that he reacted scummy, I'll probably pull up meta to check whether this was typical for him.

Also Ice, you seem to be ignoring what Venmar is saying. We all pretty much agree it is a bad plan, but do you really think his intent was to pull a fast one on the town?

I'm not ignoring it - I'm disagreeing with it. And yes, I really believe he was trying to fool town.

[IceGuy]

I have played a few games with Om as of late, he seems to be lurky in all of them. But he also mentions that he only does it as town in every game as well(same as he did here). It has become more of a null tell for me, but tbf he has been town in the aforementioned games.

Not referring to lurking, referring to the almost OMGUS vote and attack upon being voted.

I was kind of prodding Ice about it as well, why do you think his intent was scummy?

Already stated. Town proposes a plan and explains it, then drops it after being explained why it's a bad idea if it was done in a clear and obvious manner. Scum keeps pushing the plan over and over again in the hopes of a townie not paying attention to claim. And then there's the issue of Voided not exactly being a newbie.

[IceGuy]

Could somebody not voting Voided explain how that:

I would also suggest that, should a cop and doc have the same night, they should both claim

could come from somebody who actually is a cop or a doc?

[IceGuy]

I would also suggest that, should a cop and doc have the same night, they should both claim

could come from somebody who actually is a cop or a doc?

- He could be a cop or doctor that works during night 3, so he could possibly want to get the night 1 and night 2 doctors and cops to do their job efficiently. I hope i did make it clear though i don't think Voided is flat out town, just that his bad plan isn't exactly something we should lynch him for ALONE. I am keep an eye on him like i said.

No, I mean: How can you from your role PM not immediately see that the whole "claiming only if somebody else with the same night is also present" thing doesn't work because you don't know whether there is such a person?

[IceGuy]

Post 94 - IceGuy, what does "coming from someone who's not the cop or doc" have to do with the plan I thought up?

If you were a cop or a doc you'd immediately have noticed your plan is deeply flawed just by reading your role PM.

[IceGuy]

Okay, the deal with Venmar is: He seems to be a relatively new player who's active and posting a lot. I'm the only player who posted more than he did, and I generally posted only single sentences while he posted entire paragraphs. I mostly agree with Anon re: him. Logically, I'd give him a town read; gut screams scum. The point is that we're going to find out for sure on D2 or D3, though. There is no point lynching him right now.

While I'd still prefer a Voided wagon, I can get on the 2b1s case.

VOTE: 2birds1stone (L-1)

For those of you "not seeing the case": 2b1s pushed a cop claim plan with the argument that a doc would be able to protect the cop 66% of the time, after I and several others had explained to Voided why his plan doesn't work.

He has also not really contributed anything beyond that to the game. He voted Venmar, voted DeltaWave when DW voted him, put the vote back on Venmar after DW told him it was only a pressure vote, called a scumteam based on pretty much nothing (scumtell there), claimed people only voted him because of that vote, ignoring his previous plans, AtE'd and read OmNom as town. That's pretty much his entire contribution to the game, none of which seems towny or constructive in any way and some of it seems scummy.

Actually, re-reading this I'm even more content with 2b1s getting lynched instead of Voided.

[IceGuy]

IceGuy, you know I'm always like this. I get everyone else's votes, but seriously, have you played a game with me where I haven't OMGUSed everyone and called scumteams for trivial reasons?

Yes. Open 361, where I was scum and you were town. You didn't play like this at all and I was in LyLo with you.

Explain to me, then, the scum motivation behind 2b1s's play. Certainly it's not the best (as in, high-quality), but why is it more likely to come from scum than town? That's the part I don't see at all.

Why the claim part is beneficial to scum - I think I don't need to explain this.

The remainder - mostly trying to appear town while actually not contributing anything to the game.

2B1S I don't see the reason for a no claim from you.

Actually, I do. Claims are worthless in this game - it's not like a counterclaim would mean anything.

[IceGuy]

VOTE: Voidedmafia

Discuss.

[IceGuy]

Bah. Okay, most likely there's scum on all wagons.

That's actually not likely at all.

Ice Post 197: Why?

Because of yesterday. Obviously.

[IceGuy]

On second thought,

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Malakittens

[IceGuy]

Okay, the deal with Venmar is: He seems to be a relatively new player who's active and posting a lot. I'm the only player who posted more than he did, and I generally posted only single sentences while he posted entire paragraphs. I mostly agree with Anon re: him. Logically, I'd give him a town read; gut screams scum. The point is that we're going to find out for sure on D2 or D3, though. There is no point lynching him right now.

[IceGuy]

Chainsaw defense ahoy.

Is there any indication why you consider Mala town?

[IceGuy]

Calling chainsaw defence without a flip. Nice attempt at making me look bad.

Don't worry - you don't need me to look bad.

1. The Mala waggon grew way too fast.
2. The lack of good reasons for votes.

And...that's it?

I see post #199 as harmless town speculation. What do you see?

I see a very newbscummy post.

[IceGuy]

I still think Mala is today's lynch. I'd like to hear if anybody has any reasons for her being town except for wagon analysis.

[IceGuy]

This pretty much seals the deal for me.

Yes, the wagon starting on me should be a clear indication that I'm not actually scum and I'm town,

That's not even an argument. Wagons start on town and scum players all the time.

but I'm trying to see where on the wagon itself is scum or where it's town. I believe Scott/IceGuy are scum.

Okay, in general I'd consider senseless OMGUS lashing from a new player a nulltell, but in conjunction with this...

Iceguy I really hope when I'm lynched and revealed as town, you kick yourself in the face for pushing this so hard.

...it becomes obvious the read is fake.

Either I'm scum, in which case I'd pat myself on the back for mislynching.
Or I'd kick myself in the face, in which case I'm town.

Dead serious here, but I wish you guys would consider giving me a pass on this day, lynch someone else so I can show something on the following day. >.>

Since such a claim can't be proven, it's worthless and a simple survival gambit. The fact that it came long before L-1 and intent to hammer is also curious.

[IceGuy]

Actually, you don't need to claim. You've already fakeclaimed N2 cop.

And not buying the "reaction testing" thing.

[IceGuy]

Dead serious here, but I wish you guys would consider giving me a pass on this day, lynch someone else so I can show something on the following day. >.>

What's that but a softclaim?

[IceGuy]

I got a N3 action. Yes, it was a soft claim. I really hate soft claims, but the role I have is necessary for me to soft claim here.

So now you're trying to delay your lynch by two days instead of one?

[IceGuy]

You did not answer re: the contradiction in claims.

[IceGuy]

I use gut too. My gut is screaming Scott is scum, but the same with Ice.
Gut was used as a big time to get reads. Only problem is gut can't be used since you can't explain it.

I thought Scott and me were scum because we voted you?

Are you just making this up as you go? (Trick question. The answer is yes)

[IceGuy]

I had a scum gut read on Scott due to D1, but Iceguy the way you voted me is the reason I believe you are scum now.

So the scum read on Scott was gut (although you claimed the opposite yesterday and made a long post why it isn't), but the read on me isn't?

Every post you're making contains a new contradiction.

absta: Why the unvote?

[IceGuy]

VOTE: absta101

Scott, why are you voting for Venmar?

[IceGuy]

I really don't know what to make of this. FuDuzn is a target that makes sense giving his posting, but Venmar and especially his behavior around today's claim give me a very scummy vibe.

[IceGuy]

Also, everybody remember that one of them flipping scum does not confirm the other as town.

[IceGuy]

Fine. Why are you still not voting?

Because rushing a lynch through is anti-town behavior.

One of them flipping town

confirms

the other as scum.

Which would put us at 2:3 with practically no additional information.

[IceGuy]

If you guys lynch FuDuzn you will be at 5:2 tomorrow if the scum kill next night. ( duh )
If you guys lynch me, you will be at 3:2 tomorrow if the scum kill next night ( duh )

If we lynch FuDuzn we'll either be at 3:4 or at 2:5 tomorrow.
If we lynch you we'll either be at 3:4 or at 2:5 tomorrow.

[IceGuy]

I have a guilty on FuDuzn... you are guaranteed 5:2 tomorrow.

Assuming you're saying the truth, that is.

[IceGuy]

And you're desperately trying to push this lynch extremely quickly before anybody has second thoughts, such as that both of you might be scum, or other claims.

[IceGuy]

And you're desperately trying to push this lynch extremely quickly before anybody has second thoughts, such as that both of you might be scum, or other claims.

The fact that you're pushing this so hard makes me want to delay the lynch by several (RL) days:

I got a guilty, now we lynch.

Guys, cmon, let's lynch.

I have a guilty on FuDuzn... you are guaranteed 5:2 tomorrow.

There's not much to wait for, we are lynching scum.

We already know you got a guilty. The fact that you push this extremely hard makes me think there is something behind the bush. Nobody gets lynched before everybody has checked in (ConfidAnon is still missing).

Also, what "second thoughts"? Are you gonna get an epiphany from the heavens that both Ven and Ice are town? If not, then please help to lynch one, so we can get more info.

Ice is confirmed town to me, actually.

[IceGuy]

Lynch FuD. If he's scum, lynch Scott.

Actually, I'd much rather lynch Venmar in any case.

[IceGuy]

Actually, we should prob mass claim roles only (w/o the x-day) at some point to establish in which group scum will be in (either fake-claiming cop or fake-claiming doc).

What's the point? The claims are not checkable and can be easily faked by scum, since they know all alignments and can control the night kill.

[IceGuy]

Lynch FuD. If he's scum, lynch Scott.

Actually, I'd much rather lynch Venmar in any case.

To clarify this, I want both Venmar and FuDuzn lynched, but don't particularly care about the order.

[IceGuy]

Because I'm definitely not lynching anyone before everyone has checked in.

[IceGuy]

The way Iceguy appears to be waffling seems weird to me, like he doesn't want to commit to voting either of us because he knows he is damned either way.

What?

[IceGuy]

Ladies and gentlemen: Venmar - FuDuzn - absta101, the scum team.

[IceGuy]

You really think this is a gambit and both Venmar/Fu are scum?

Yes.

Venmar's behavior regarding the FuDuzn guilty is too questionable to be ignored.

[IceGuy]

No, it's not.

I understand why you want to get your guilty lynched, but I don't understand what the justification for this:

I got a guilty, now we lynch.

Guys, cmon, let's lynch.

I have a guilty on FuDuzn... you are guaranteed 5:2 tomorrow.

There's not much to wait for, we are lynching scum.

should be from a town perspective. Rushed lynches, even with a guilty, hurt town because they allow for less information collection. However, when this is done before everybody has checked in, and coupled with pressure to not disagree - when I first advanced this theory, and reminded everybody a scum flip does not confirm the other as town, Venmar said:

IceGuy is second scum. Great guys, we are on a roll.

it becomes downright scummy.

[IceGuy]

Actually, claims are a good idea since players only flip Cop or Doctor. Claiming gives us the additional information which day they're on, which is an extra bit of information which may or may not be usual. Scum flip -> disregard claim, town flip -> use claiming information.

[IceGuy]

Actually, you should have waited with the claim, and we should definitely wait with the hammer. ConfidAnon has not checked in yet (

@Mod: please prod or replace

).

[IceGuy]

Why should i have waited? How is ConfidAnon going to make my guilty claim any worse or better?

What if ConfidAnon claims a cop guilty on you?

[IceGuy]

So let's see:

Benefits to not lynching right away:
Small

Benefits to lynching right away:
None

Looks like the decision is easy, we're waiting for CA.

[IceGuy]

You can't be serious are you? You were making out ConfidAnon to be superman or something, and then when you're called upon it, this is what you come up with? That what IF ConfidAnon was a N3 cop and what IF he copped Venmar and what IF he got a guilty. AND that all just seems to happen with the person who has not posted yet. And even IF all that is true, you know we would still have to lynch Venmar or FuD, right?

So let's see:

Benefits to not lynching right away:
Small

Benefits to lynching right away:
None

Looks like the decision is easy, we're waiting for CA.

(Actually, there are other possibilities. He could've copped FuDuzn and got an innocent, for instance.)

[IceGuy]

Also, Ice Post 461 (not quoting so I don't have to deal with both of those quotes) kinda ignores Dayne's point.

No, it doesn't. I know the benefits to not lynching right away are small, but the benefits of lynching right away are non-existent.

[IceGuy]

Why would scum fakeclaim guilty at this stage?

So one of them gets lynched and flips scum and the other one can ride on the towncred until endgame.

[IceGuy]

Natalie, do you have anything of relevance to claim?

[IceGuy]

Anything that should make us reconsider we should lynch FuDuzn based on a claim by Venmar he's a cop who got a guilty on him.

[IceGuy]

If you don't have anything to claim,

VOTE: FuDuzn

[IceGuy]

You have nothing to say about my catch-up post? Maybe others did. You should have let others respond before placing the last vote.

Nah, it wasn't particularly insightful.

[IceGuy]

VOTE: Venmar

[IceGuy]

Why me IceGuy?

As outlined yesterday.

Also, since you have voted me, why do you think I'm scum?

[IceGuy]

- Not answering that until you answer my previous question better. That was not a valid answer to my question.

Thank you for confirming my read on you.

[IceGuy]

Also, FuDuzn flipped scum IceGuy...

Explain how that makes you town.

[IceGuy]

- Explain why as scum I would do such a stupid gambit?

To do what you're currently doing?

- You're dodging my question(s) by asking me questions. You're so scummy right now.

I have already answered your question. If you don't like the answer, tough luck.

Also, why has IceGuy been behind all the wrong wagons? 2Birds and MalaKittens, he tried to push both of their lynches pretty hard, and Voided before both of them. He wanted to vote all of them off of speculation and guessing, but when FuDuzn became a victim of a guilty, IceGuy took a step back and didn't want to push an obvious scum. Why doesn't anyone notice this?

Your point?

[IceGuy]

For later reference:

2birds1stone

- 7(

Malakittens

, DeltaWave, Venmar,

Voidedmafia

,

Om of the Nom

,

IceGuy

, absta101)
Venmar - 4(

2birds1stone

, ConfidAnon, Ser Arthur Dayne, Scott Brosius)
Ser Arthur Dayne - 2(absta101,

FuDuzn

)

Malakittens

- 6(

IceGuy

,

FuDuzn

,

Om of the Nom

, Scott Brosius, absta101, Venmar)
Scott Brosius - 1(

Malakittens

)

FuDuzn

- 1(Ser Arthur Dayne)
Venmar - 1(ConfidAnon)
DeltaWave - 1(

Voidedmafia

)

[IceGuy]

Or I just consider Venmar's behavior scummy as fuck, and think a gambit makes sense.

Think about it: Scum had three people alive at the beginning of Day 3; they could sacrifice one of themselves, give one a massive amount of towncred AND have a third one as fallback.

Venmar claims a guilty on FuDuzn.

FuDuzn gets lynched, flips scum. Venmar gets "confirmed" as town because his cop result appeared to be correct.
Venmar gets lynched, flips scum. FuDuzn gets "confirmed" as town because scum fakeclaimed a guilty on him.

After such a situation, it's 2 scum, 7 town. One of those scum has a massive amount of towncred and after two mislynches, scum wins. Even if the third scum gets caught, it's three mislynches. And who votes the "cop" who claimed a guilty on flipped scum in LyLo, or the guy flipped scum claimed a guilty on?

It's the perfect plan ... until somebody notices what I noticed. That's the reason why Venmar tried to rush the lynch through and is now pushing me so hard.

[IceGuy]

Or why can’t he just be a cop who got a guilty on a scum?

He's too scummy for that.

[IceGuy]

Ice, other than the events of yesterday, what do you have on Venmar?

I had him as a null read before that, but I believe that his behavior yesterday and today was/is very scummy. What made me think of the gambit was not just the claim, but mainly Venmar's behavior. He doesn't play like a cop who got a guilty.

For yesterday, refer to my posts yesterday; for today, see how Venmar has not given any reads but:
- "Not buying Scott scum."
- I'm scum because I advanced the gambit theory.
- Later he adds that I was on both wagons D1 and D2 (like he himself, by the way), and that I didn't vote for FuDuzn immediately when he claimed the guilty. Keep in mind that he pushed me long before that - basically, he started from "IceGuy is scum", and later tried to find anything to throw at it.

The rest is repetitions, AtE ("This is stupid, is this setup going to penalize any cop who got a guilty? Because this is just frustrating, it makes claiming on this setup really hard.") and a few questions.

Also, I don't really see the town train of thought that could have led to this sentence:

IceGuy is

either

scum

or

he is trying to push another mislynch.

Also answers DeltaWave.

[IceGuy]

Not sure what to make of whatever absta did. I had him down as possible third scum but that bizarre behavior actually made him town since I don't think he'd do something like that if both scum are already exposed because of the gambit.

[IceGuy]

The activity in this game just DIED.

Thanks for making this incredibly insightful, non-trivial observation.

- Why? You do realize i only had 1 investigation all game. You can't treat me as if i was a full fledged cop. IF you only have 1 shot at investigating, and you hit scum, you lynch that scum because your a VT from that point on.

I'm referring to your "LYNCH NOW DON'T THINK DON'T DISCUSS" behavior, followed by "What, IceGuy is against rushing the lynch through without thinking and/or discussion? LYNCH HIM NEXT".

- The thing you use as an example was the only time i said that, thus not a repetition.

Yes. It was an AtE, though, and that's what my sentence was saying.

[IceGuy]

- Still doesn't really answer what i addressed. I got a guilty, what was there to discuss other than who his partners could be?

This is what I was doing, by advancing the gambit theory. This is what you were doing:

I got a guilty, now we lynch.

Classic OMGUS by FuDuzn. Why would i say I got a guilty on you? BECAUSE I DID.

Guys.

Guys, cmon, let's lynch.

IceGuy is second scum. Great guys, we are on a roll.

There's not much to wait for, we are lynching scum.

You were all like " Wait.. uuh... what? No No let's NOT lynch, even if he was confirmed scum ".

To clarify this, I want both Venmar and FuDuzn lynched, but don't particularly care about the order.

I don't think you realize how stupid of a gambit this would be between me and FuDuzn, and it obviously isn't "perfect" like you made it out to be because you seemingly "figured" it out, even though it isn't true.

Explain why that gambit would be "stupid".

IceGuy, if you had to choose a second lynch target other than me, who would it be?

Natalie, for contributing very little and the questionable quality of her few contributions. ConfidAnon was a null read.

absta101 was my previous second suspect, but his latest behavior changed that and wants me to wait for his replacement.

[IceGuy]

I have no idea on how to argue with you anymore.

How about addressing the points in my post? You said "what was there to discuss other than who his partners could be", yet didn't make any effort in that direction except for two sentences, one saying that Scott and I are "gut scum", and the other one accusing me of being scum after advancing the gambit theory? You claimed the gambit would be stupid, why?

Why would ConfidAnon make sense as my partner at all? If we were to pull off this "gambit", why would he have tried to buss me both day 1 and day 2?

Because bussing happens, and him continuing his suspicions for two days isn't extraordinary either, just dropping his suspicions on you would've been suspicious, and it was clear Mala was the lynch on D2.

What made you so suspicious of absta?

His flip-flopping around the Mala wagon on D2 and him pushing the FuDuzn lynch in a similar way as you on D3.

[IceGuy]

- Well, Scott is just gut and i might be leaning away from a Scott lynch. Gut still tells me that he is a good target due to previous events. An alternative to Scott could be Dwayne or Absta. Natalie made a prediction before last day ended, that it was possible that DeltaWave could have gotten an innocent result on Scott, where the " town as fuck" read would have made sense, and especially followed by his behavior of not wanting to explain it for a short while. I don't want to rolefish here, Delta you don't have to answer this, but if this could be answered, we will have a 4 man lynch pool to choose from. ( IceGuy, Dwayne, Absta, Natalie ).

Interestingly, you haven't mentioned SAD or Natalie as a possible scum suspect before, you didn't give a reason for any of your four scum suspects, and you did not bother to look for relational tells. This is not genuine scumhunting.

- Why would I buss FuDuzn only to be caught by you, like now? You clearly saw the way i dealt with the lynch wasn't very subtle or concealing, so i was bound to attract attention. So why would I be the one bussing FuDuzn rather than the other way around, where as FuDuzn would have done a much better job at it? He wasn't under as much heat as me, so wouldn't his claim be extra believable? Plus he is more experienced and a better talker than me. Furthermore, why wouldn't my partners have told me to execute it in a better fashion as to not attract your attention as i have now? The only thing about my claim that points to me being scum is possibly the timing, which i admit was suspicious, but i claimed ASAP and the fact i was under heat was just a coincidence.

Actually, you investigating FuDuzn makes a lot more sense than the other way round, because you were under heavy fire. Investigating a player that is likely getting lynched is a lost investigation - he's getting lynched anyway. There weren't a lot of solid FuDuzn reads though.

Also, I'm pretty sure you didn't intend to behave in a scummy way, but that's true for anybody. I can imagine you (plural) deciding you (singular) should play the cop in the hope of your behavior getting explained away as "newbtown excited to have found scum".

- But why would he keep attempting to buss me if we were planning to do the "gambit"?

Because the gambit is only a good idea if scum doesn't get lynched early, and you probably thought of it only later. Just dropping the bus would've been too suspicious, as said above.

[IceGuy]

- Funny, you think i am scum but still expect me to scumhunt? I thought scum couldn't scumhunt...

So...your point is that you are scum?

- Doesn't explain how you thought the gambit was "perfect", and how it worked out for me.

In most games, a cop claim out of the blue would've been more suspicious, and a counterclaim could have happened, both of which can't happen here due to the setup.

Unfortunately, it seems to be working out rather well for you, seeing most people don't want to lynch you. But I'm trying to change that.

- I didn't use the "newbtown that found a scum" as a excuse, others have done so for me.

Obviously.

[IceGuy]

- Why are you being so obtuse?

Why do you ignore my point?

- This is so hilarious, because I think a counterclaim was exactly what you were wishing for last day phase by hoping someone counterclaims by saying they got a guilty on me or innocent on FuDuzn.

Nice spin. I wasn't "wishing" for it, I was waiting until everybody had their chance to say a possible claim.

You sounded pretty desperate for one of the two, ignoring the fact that cop would have to be N2 or a N1. Even in that case, it looks like Delta was from N1. Did you just screw up your logic?

No.

Unfortunately, it seems to be working out rather well for you, seeing most people don't want to lynch you. But I'm trying to change that.

- That's all nice and all, but you're not doing much to convince them now are you by arguing with me? Your effort is valiant, keep trying.[/quote]

[IceGuy]

- Thats not a "point". Assuming i am scum by misrepping what I said isn't a "point", it is an assumption. And quite frankly i didn't address it because it wasn't true. And it still doesn't change the fact that your assumption, or how you like to put it, "point", is obtuse.

Blah-blah. I was calling you out on having non-genuine reads. You haven't responded to that.

- Soo... a claim that counters what i claimed..? So you were waiting for a counterclaim? ...But I thought you just said... Yeah. Also, it doesn't change the fact you wanted a reason to lynch me, or at least turn the tables on me. Refusing to accept the fact FuDuzn was scum through a guilty investigation and hoping that wasn't true by trying to pin the cop as scum, while knowing the chances of a second N2 Cop and a second N1 Cop were extremely low, is just suspicious, and in my eyes, scummy.

I did not wait for a reason to lynch you or turn the tables on you.

I already had a reason to lynch you. And pretty much every post you made today solidified my scumread on you. Because you're incredibly scummy and you'd be long dead if you hadn't pulled that gambit.

Also, are you seriously claiming that waiting for possible claims (because not everybody has checked in) before hammering is a scummy move? Answer "yes" or "no" only, please.

[IceGuy]

@Ice: WIFOM time, if such a gambit was done, why would scum sacrifice FuDuzn who was on nobody's radar? Why not offer Venmar up given that he had suspicion on him already?

Because an investigation on Venmar (who would've been lynched anyway) makes less sense than an investigation on FuDuzn (whom almost nobody had a solid read on).

[IceGuy]

I might have to agree with Scott about his assumption. I am done arguing with IceGuy.

I guess you couldn't find any more arguments.

Absta is a good compromise vote, but a IceGuy lynch sounds much better to me.

Two unexplained scumreads and still going strong.

- In this case, yes, because a claim was not possible.

This is a blatant lie. ConfidAnon/Natalie could have claimed. As soon as the no-claim was in, I hammered.

[IceGuy]

I still think IceGuy is scum.

And you still haven't given a reason for that, or contributed anything of value today.

[IceGuy]

He is pretty obvious town,

How?

and it seems like you are trying to get rid of a player you will have trouble getting rid of later.

So you're thinking I'm scum, but I don't have a night kill?

[IceGuy]

No. Venmar will probably be protected.

Interesting.

So, why do you think Venmar is obviously town?

[IceGuy]

FOR GETTING A GUILTY ON A SCUM AND CAUSING HIS LYNCH.

Are you being an idiot on purpose?

Why are you so sure it's not a gambit?

[IceGuy]

Because there was virtually no reason to do it besides earning towncred.

And earning towncred as scum is not a reason?

Why are you so sure it

is

a gambit?

See the approximately hundred posts I made about the topic.

Ice, for you to assume that it was a gambit, means to assume that there is someone who appeared less scummy than FuD atm for scum to pick FuD to make the gambit on.

What do you mean?

Who do you think is the third scum then?

See above; hasn't changed.

[IceGuy]

Before you do that, could you tell us if you got a guilty result on N3?

[IceGuy]

Nothing new.

Venmar is still scum, Natalie is still not contributing anything of value (and likely scum, too), and Hellraiser is right.

[IceGuy]

I think deadline is near (?), so willing to compromise on Ice.

Check Venmar's and Natalie's ISO and say that again.

[IceGuy]

Venmar looks fine and ConfidAnon looked fine, and Natalie hasn't done such horrible job as to make me change the read on that slot, so meh.

Check why they're voting me. The only reason they gave for their votes on me is that I advanced the gambit theory.

Even if you don't think they're scum, and even if you don't agree with my gambit theory, if you're "compromising" on such an obviously fake lynch you're being incredibly stupid.

[IceGuy]

Oh, and in case it's not obvious where they are coming from, their second "suspect" and other possible lynch is the second person who agrees on the gambit theory.

[IceGuy]

Oh, and in case it's not obvious where they are coming from, their second "suspect" and other possible lynch is the second person who agrees with Venmar ( Natalie )

In case it isn't obvious, the difference between Hellraiser and Natalie is that Hellraiser made well-reasoned arguments and Natalie has been going "I want IceGuy lynched! I want IceGuy lynched!" over and over, without giving any reason except for "I don't agree with him".

[IceGuy]

@IceGuy, what do you think about Dayne?

Most likely candidate for third scum if it isn't Natalie, mostly by principle of exclusion though because the remaining three players are more towny.

[IceGuy]

Would you be ready to vote him at deadline?

Yes.

[IceGuy]

I am voting you for trying to get a cop who got a guilty on scum lynched. I don't believe your gambit explanation. I think you are scum who is trying to get out an obvious townie lynched.

Natalie has been going "I want IceGuy lynched! I want IceGuy lynched!" over and over, without giving any reason except for "I don't agree with him".

[IceGuy]

But really, I think we have a better chance to hit scum on Dayne than on Natalie, I don't think Venmar and Natalie would buddy this hard if they were the scum team and I think I'm 66% on Venmar compared to Natalie. Natalie looks a bit too much like a VI for my liking and ConfidAnon was a pretty strong town read of mine.

Even if you think she's not scum, she's still a good lynch because she shouldn't be in LyLo.

[IceGuy]

IceGuy wants to lynch town players now. THIS IS NOT OUR OBJECTIVE.

BEEP BEEP BEEP

MISREP DETECTED

BEEP BEEP BEEP

[IceGuy]

Not a misrep. You are willing to lynch Natalie regardless if she is scum or not, and that's bad.

See, that's pretty much a textbook misrep. I've said approximately a bajillion times that Natalie is my main suspect for third scum.

[IceGuy]

Ok. But saying you would lynch her just to avoid having her in LyLo means you're willing to lynch her if she was town.

Explain how that's a bad thing.

Hellraiser is officially answering for IceGuy. Buddying noted.

This word, I don't think you know what it means.

If I was scum with Venmar, I wouldn't make it so obvious. I genuinely think he is town and you are scum.

Why aren't you giving any reasons, then?

All you do is write me off as posting no content and calling me scum. How can you call me scum if I haven't posted content?

So you're saying the optimal strategy for scum is to post no content?

I'd like to see IceGuy respond to my #652 though.

I think I've already made clear my positions on Dayne, Natalie and ConfidAnon.

[IceGuy]

PEdit: Yeah, I know. I mostly want specific comments on Natalie based on my points. Nothing you can spare?

I agree Natalie is a VI, but I read her as a scum-VI. I also had a null read on ConfidAnon.

Where did I say I was going to turn it into a Policy Lynch? Having intent to lynch town players is not a town mindset.

Explain why it is wrong for a town player to play to the town win condition.

My thoughts are my own. I don't actually give a damn what you think my motives are, or what you think of me, but I know I am town so your guess is wrong.

Fluff.

[IceGuy]

OMG. OMG. OMG.

/headdesk
/headdesk two
/headdesk three

More fluff. Answer the question.

[IceGuy]

Why, would you want to lynch a town player and go into LyLo rather than try and lynch scum to AVOID LyLo? This makes no sense from a towns perspective. " Oh hey, i know that if we mislynch we go into LyLo, but you know what, let's MISLYNCH this guy because I feel like we should go into LyLo, but without him ".

This is not about lynching town over scum. So, another misrep.

I'm asking you one more time: Why is it bad to lynch town when this means you have a greater chance of fulfilling the town win condition?

Even if you

think she's not scum

, she's still a good lynch because she shouldn't be in LyLo.

- The bolded hints she would be town, so the rest of the sentence is in the PoV that she is town. You never mentioned her being a Scum VI in this post.

Yes. That's Hellraiser's PoV, not mine, which is obvious reading the sentence. Yet one more misrep coming from scum-Venmar.

[IceGuy]

Iceguy, want to do a 1v1.

Nice try deflecting from my question.

Why is it bad to lynch town when this means you have a greater chance of fulfilling the town win condition?

[IceGuy]

How does lynching town ( thus, bringing scum closer to their win condition ), fulfill your town win condition. Even in LyLo, i would rather have a VI who i know is town than strangers i don't trust. Lynching town is always bad when you think the person you're voting is town.

So, let's assume Natalie is a town-VI, as you claim. LyLo with Natalie means a LyLo with Natalie, you and a town player. Natalie thinks you're confirmed town, so she votes the town player. Town loses.

LyLo without Natalie means two town players and you. If one of the two town players votes the other, you can quickhammer and win, making town lose. If they both vote for you, town wins.

So if you think Natalie is a town-VI, not lynching her means autoloss for town. Lynching her means a possibility to win.

Nice deflection of my question though.

IceGuy, want to do a 1v1.

That wasn't a deflection. I'm not answering your questions until you answer mine.

The answer is no, by the way. I don't do 1v1 on principle because they're

always

a bad strategy.

Other than that, I consider your 1v1 "suggestion" nothing more than an attempt to gain towncred and/or a deflection.

[IceGuy]

If IceGuy is confident in me being scum, he should accept the 1v1.

PEdit: Pussy, someone isn't confident in their "scum" read.

Someone has no idea about Mafia theory.

[IceGuy]

*Yawn*

Fluff.

[IceGuy]

That logic is flawed if the alternative to lynching Natalie is lynching a scum player.

I've already said above that I was not talking about situations where you can lynch scum over town - in that case, it's obvious. Venmar was claiming it can

never

be beneficial to lynch town.

PEdit:

Alright. I propose that we lynch Dayne then, since most seem to suspect him anyway. Wouldn't that be a good compromise?

I'll compromise on him if deadline hits, but I'd really, really, really like to see Venmar or at least Natalie getting lynched today, and if they continue posting as they're doing now, I think it's a possibility.

[IceGuy]

All the more of a reason to drop that then, if it's just a theory discussion. In this case I think we have clearer chances to hit scum than Natalie and you looked earlier like you was trying to get me to policy lynch her.

As I said, I prefer a Natalie lynch to a Ser lynch because my Natalie scum read is stronger.

I was making an argument from your perspective in the hope of getting you to compromise on Natalie.

[IceGuy]

Yes, but you used the reason that she was a VI. I have bigger suspects which means that it would be a policy vote if I voted her. Do you understand what I'm trying to say now?

Yes.

[IceGuy]

Scott, Delta, Ser, Hellraiser, please move your vote to Venmar or explain why you won't.

[IceGuy]

Am I seriously getting lynched for not actually being scummy?

[IceGuy]

Oh, right.

Well, in that case I hope you will be able to come to your own conclusions tomorrow.

I'm an N5 doc, by the way.

[IceGuy]

GG scum.

Though town was pretty fucking stupid.