Open 453 - SCIENCE! ( Game Over! )

[Equinox]

Vote: Cogito Ergo Sum

[Equinox]

Unvote, Vote: Tierce

[Equinox]

Why wait until the last minute what you can do this minute?

Unvote, Vote: Robocopter87

Because I didn't think about moving it at that point, and partially didn't want to.

What tipped you over the edge into voting Riss_?

[Equinox]

Looks like I turned it into something lame.

[Equinox]

Mine are serious! Mafia is serious business.

[Equinox]

CES what is with you jumping all over with your votes? You didn't do this in Delayed Mafia. Are these some type of reaction tests? If so explain what they are and what they mean.

Putting aside the meta question, there are 2 other people here doing the same thing Cogito Ergo Sum is. What's your take on them?

[Equinox]

Yeah I know what you are thinking, "What robo, you just gonna sit there and do nothing?"

Well I just might.

Well, that's disappointing.

[Equinox]

Hey you are the one who is down for a policy lynch.

You think this is about policy?

Interesting.

[Equinox]

Oh is there more?

Of course.

Who's scum?

[Equinox]

What more is there?

The fact that you've said nothing of import.

Who's scum?

[Equinox]

Actually, this one-liner exchange is boring, so I'll just lay out the cards here.

You've said nothing of import.

You deftly dodge the RVS bandwagons by voting the moderator, and you stay there. Fair enough; some people do that because it's funny. When the vote switches start happening, though, you don't really react. Even though you thought my vote on you was for a policy lynch, you didn't react to it. From your point of view, I am pushing for an easy lynch while avoiding commentary on Voidedmafia; that should have raised red flags.

You're just sitting there wondering why my vote's on you.

[Equinox]

I think that says a lot about you and less about me. Don't you think?

What does it say about us? Who's scum?

[Equinox]

*sniffs Rainbowdash*

Unvote, Vote: Voidedmafia

[Equinox]

I don't like CES jumping around on wagons.

At the time you initially accused him, Equinox and Tierce were doing the same thing. What were your thoughts on them (before we posted cases)?

[Equinox]

Equinox, why are you talking about yourself in the third person?

Equinox is bored.

[Equinox]

Tell me what you think of Tierce? You must have an opinion on her.

I like Tierce in this game. She's cool.

[Equinox]

She doesn't look bad comparatively?

To whom?

[Equinox]

Tierce from bygones past.

Not yet? Way I heard it, Tierce-scum tends to be noticeable, and she hasn't tripped any flags for me yet. As far as she keeps that up, she's probably town.

[Equinox]

That feels more like a prepared statement than a response to my line of questioning.

Probably because I prepared it for post 107 and then deleted because I figured it wasn't needed.

[Equinox]

Equi, are you just sheeping Dashie, here?

Sort of. I haven't spotted the tell that Rainbowdash is claiming, but Rainbowdash's hardline defense for Robocopter87 means Robocopter87 is more likely to be town than not, regardless of what Rainbowdash is. There's a couple of possibilities I've thought of where this might not hold true, but they're both things I believe I can spot at a later point.

My vote switch to you was my own. Your vote switch to Robocopter87 while Tierce and I were attacking him caught my attention. Rainbowdash happened to give me an excuse to switch to you.

[Equinox]

Why does it make you sure that Robo's town regardless of Dashie's alignment? I suppose another phrasing is, why is Dashie's alignment here irrelevant?

[...]

How sure do you think you are in spotting these?

If Rainbowdash is town and truly believes Robocopter87 is town, then it's worth my while to sheep Rainbowdash. If Rainbowdash is scum, then it's more likely that Robocopter87 is town than not. As for your second question, I'm fairly sure I can? Even if I can't, I can trust the word of others here as long as I have a town read on them, since we've got a solid player list.

[Equinox]

UNVOTE: Robocopter87
VOTE: Cogito Ergo Sum

Hmm. Sell me on this -- why is he scum?

[Equinox]

Vote: Equinox

*sniffs Cogito Ergo Sum*

[Equinox]

Voidedmafia, what's your read of Rainbowdash?

[Equinox]

Hmm. I can buy that, actually; I'll take a closer look later tonight.

[Equinox]

Psst. You should probably convince Tierce with a case.

I can't get lynched without one~ (And you know this.)

[Equinox]

Different game.

[Equinox]

I'm quite surprised that some of these players, most of which are very well experienced, were willing to lynch me for being useless. When they were full capable of finding scum they chose instead to attack me for being lazy.

What I don't get is how you've made this observation but still don't have scum reads. You can use your vote not just to declare reads and lynch but also to pressure; you know this, but you've done nothing with it despite having had misgivings about the people pushing you.

Reads soon, please.

I don't know if Tierce or Equi are known for bussing, but I don't feel like Tierce was. The attack was pretty legitimate, so that part feels town to me.

Equi feels more like she could've bussed. I sadly can't explain this beyond that, but that's how I feel.

[...]

Vote: Riss

You feel like I might have been bussing. I basically stated outright in the thread that I'm difficult to lynch even as scum. There's a vote on me. You... vote Riss_? What?

What's your read of Rainbowdash?

[Equinox]

Dashie can be town.

In that case, why are you questioning Rainbowdash's read of Robocopter87? If you have Rainbowdash as probably town, shouldn't that mean you trust her and, by proxy, her reads, as she's a known quantity ability-wise?

[Equinox]

Cogito Ergo Sum, why did you ask me about Tierce specifically?

Because two townies can't have differing reads?

Dashie finds Robo town right now. I can't possibly see him as town right now. We differ in reads. That doesn't mean that I find Dashie scum/my because OMG HER TOWN ARE MY SCUM!

Differing reads is one thing; this is similar but not the same. If Rainbowdash had presented a case that you happened to disagree with, I could understand, but Rainbowdash essentially asked those who trusted her to get off the Robocopter87 wagon and ask no questions.

[Equinox]

Actually, hold that thought.

Unvote

[Equinox]

Rainbowdash, who's scum besides Voidedmafia and why?

[Equinox]

Okay. On a reread, this game isn't boring.

Waiting to hear from Rainbowdash.

I looked into Tierce's case against Cogito Ergo Sum, and basically I don't agree with it. Cogito Ergo Sum has been cryptic, but this looks like town-cryptic as opposed to the scum-cryptic of that one game.

Voidedmafia is likely not scum, either. I'm miffed that he's being weird, but he's being stubborn with regards to Rainbowdash in a situation where it would've been easier to just back off. That's probably the best way I can word this, so if that didn't make sense, deal with it.

That leaves me with Rainbowdash, Riss_, Robocopter87, and Tierce. Tierce is probably town for the reasons I'd already stated to Cogito Ergo Sum; however, I'll take some time out tomorrow to see what Tierce-scum looks like and compare to this game.

Riss_, do you have reads on anyone other than Cogito Ergo Sum and Tierce?

Anything else really is just gut and a large pool that is very fluid once you take VM and Robo out of it.

Well, might be a good idea to run with your gut, then, since I'm fairly sure Voidedmafia ain't it.

[Equinox]

Eq- I have to go look up on meta, but was leaning town up until I saw his last post because it's bothersome in a way.

---

Eq:

If you think that VM is not likely scum why are you voting him still?

I unvoted.

Well, I'd expect my most recent post to look weird. I basically just pulled an 180° turn on every single read I've had.

[Equinox]

Anyway, scum team is Equinox-Riss_ then. I suggest we lynch Equinox first.

While this is generally a good idea when I'm actually scum... I'm not, so this is a bad idea.

(Hint: Read my posts again and try to see why I have the read on you that I do, and you'll see that I'm town. No cheap tricks here.)

[Equinox]

And suddenly a light bulb turns on.

That should be town reads, length of time of scum reads not important for what I am seeing here.

Town reads on Cogito Ergo Sum and Voidedmafia occurred after I reread the game (post 163). Actual town read on Robocopter87 happened just now when I read Voidedmafia's post, which means you're probably town for putting a full stop on that wagon.

The town read I had on Tierce occurred within the first few pages of the game when she poked at Robocopter87 and Cogito Ergo Sum, but that's on hold given :revelations: and I've yet to read through that scum game. Might not matter so much now, though.

Cogito Ergo Sum, I'll compromise with you on Riss_. If Riss_ doesn't flip scum, feel free to go to town on me~

Vote: Riss_

[Equinox]

Okay, so a quick look again tells me I'm probably on a different track with regards to that earlier light bulb, but I'm fairly sure this track leads to the same destination. Yay, analogies.

Lynching Riss_ and Tierce will win the game, methinks. Pondering whether or not I should be lynching Tierce first or sticking with this. In any case, I'll be back later.

[Equinox]

Definitely not boring.

[Equinox]

How'd you get a townread from a post of mine when I've been trying to articulate a scumread on him?

WIZARDRY.

Your line about Robocopter87 assuming that Tierce unvoted him because she thought him town had me thinking that it would point to him being town given town mindset and whatnot.

Bah. When I put it into words, it seems silly and like it doesn't work, but I was pretty damn sure of this when I saw it this morning.

Let me think on this a bit.

[Equinox]

Actually, scratch that, I'm still fine with Robocopter87 being town.

[Equinox]

Okay, good. At least that means I'm still cool.

[Equinox]

I countered a case with what should totally look like bullshit to Tierce and there's nothing, nothing at all.

[Equinox]

Just trying to get points across. Im against it to the point I am not sure which of Equinox and Robo I would vote if Riss is scum.

If Riss_ is scum, the partner is likely not Robocopter87.

If you're talking about your Post 163, you accept that CES is cryptic and then dance around the rest of my post. That raised flags, but it doesn't mean anything unless CES flips scum.

I expected a lot more resistance than "This wagon feels lonely."

[Equinox]

Equinox, how good would you say you are scum? (Where "good" is really meant in an idealistic sense; I don't particularly care how consistently you can beat lesser players.) And do you have a nice relevant scum game you could link to? Preferably one with no activity issues.

Reasonably good? I can do fairly well in a group that's not familiar with my town game, since I tend to "sound town" as long as I don't do something obviously scummy.

Most recently apart from Open 393, played Mini 1326 against Rainbowdash-town. No activity issues in the game from what I can remember, but I had time constraints that led to lurking. Open 347 is the next most recent one after that; it's been partially eaten by tigers. I've got an archive of the rest lying around that hasn't been formatted if you want that.

The rest are in my wiki.

[Equinox]

No nice relevant scum games then. Shame; you should play in cooler games.

And what's the deal with "I can do fairly well in a group that's not familiar with my town game, since I tend to "sound town" as long as I don't do something obviously scummy."? That makes it sound like you're just borderline competent.

I've tried, but apparently I have some sort of love affair with town role PMs~

Probably? I mean, I can get by a lot of people on tone and for the rest there's the usual kill, manipulate, and magic tricks, enough that I have a shot at winning, but I'm pretty sure I play differently enough that it's noticeable to someone who has played with Equinox-town or someone who knows how to dive past the town-sounding BS.

[Equinox]

Unvote, Vote: Tierce

Cogito Ergo Sum, Voidedmafia, come join for a piece of the glory!

[Equinox]

Voidedmafia:

Cogito Ergo Sum, Rainbowdash, and I have proclaimed town reads on Robocopter87, and I can think of at least two of us who are reading him as town for different reasons. Since we don't scum hunt in exactly the same way, if we're coming to the same conclusions, the chances are very likely that Robocopter87 is, in fact, town. I can lay my reasoning out if you want, but I'm fairly sure that we all can't be wrong about this.

If you read Tierce as town, the only logical pairing here is {Equinox, Riss_}. If that pairing makes sense to you, you will get more information out of an Equinox vote at this point, as it will make apparent the scum team in play once I flip. Before you do that, though, please take a look again at why you're reading Tierce as town; if, after that, you still agree with your read, vote me and let Robocopter87 choose the hammer.

[Equinox]

I'd like to know, a least.

Read Robocopter87's posts but assume that he is town. That's the best way I can put it.

Though now that I've had to actually sit down and articulate my reasoning, I'm much more certain on Robocopter87 being town now. Even if you don't trust my alignment, trust my ability to read him; it's strong enough that I'd be willing to stake the game on it.

Robo/Equi is also possible, though.

{Equinox, Robocopter87} is not possible because Robocopter87 is not scum. That's final. The scum team is either {Equinox, Riss_} or {Riss_, Tierce}, which is why I told you to move from Riss_ if you were that confident on Tierce being town.

Anyway, the line's drawn.

Your move, Robocopter87.

[Equinox]

EBWOP: My read of Robocopter87 is strong enough that I'd be willing to stake the game on it, not my ability to read him. Hah. Though if I'm right about him, then my ego is going to think that my ability to read him is that strong, too.

[Equinox]

Ah, what the hell. If I left the decision to Robocopter87 with just that, it'd be a boring hammer, and boring is bad. Let's get some campaigning in here.

Robocopter87, here's why you should vote for Tierce instead of Equinox:

Cogito Ergo Sum, Rainbowdash, and Voidedmafia are not scum.

However, I do still see where this could be from a town mindset, but I think of it more as scummy. And due to my lack of scumreads but abundance of townreads, it takes that little bit to throw you on the scum side of things.

If you could see the town mindset behind Voidedmafia's actions, then the chances are higher that Voidedmafia is actually town and doing these things out of a town mindset than him being scum and you being right on all of your other town reads. His pressuring you is not scummy nor is his reluctance to explain to you that it wasn't just a policy lynch; you really were being scummy at the time.

Basically, the game can be solved by lynching within these three: Equinox, Riss_, Tierce.

I am offering myself up for lynch. Cogito Ergo Sum can tell you that I'm manipulative as scum, etc., but here's the deal: My scum buddy can be literally no one else. As scum, I would be proposing a suicide plan in a player list that will insist on following through with it or will at least be very suspicious of weaseling.

Furthermore, look at Tierce's behavior towards Cogito Ergo Sum and Equinox.

Tierce posts a case against Cogito Ergo Sum in post 136; she includes evidence and analysis of Cogito Ergo Sum's behavior. I respond to that entire thing with only a single line post 163, and it's not even a direct response to any point of Tierce's case. The next time she references Cogito Ergo Sum is a complaint about the wagon going nowhere in post 194; when I point out she didn't pressure me for my scummy rebuttal, she gives a weak response in post 199: I raised flags, but I'm not worth pursuing.

Tierce-town is proactive and aggressive, and she would have given me a more substantial response. If not pressure, at least an attempt at more persuasion, since we'd both lost to Cogito Ergo Sum-scum earlier in the year.

[Equinox]

No. If you're going to be nice and help out a little by sitting back and watching, please just flip a coin and get it over with. I flip town, you automatically lynch Tierce and Riss_ to win the game. There are only two scum in a group of three players remaining after process of elimination. If you have doubts because you disagree with my reads, ask, but if you haven't seen the connections by now, then I'm not sure how waiting is going to help you. Reread the game or something.

[Equinox]

There is a big problem with your logic, Equinox. If you flip town and I'm lynched, we lose. We can only mislynch once.

Work that out tomorrow? Besides, I'm having a lot of trouble seeing how you came to the conclusions that you did after having combed over the game a second time, so I can only conclude that you're scum.

[Equinox]

Yes, Equi, continue to persuade me even though I just said both of your opinions are irrelevant to me.

I've already presented a case. What more do you want? I'm not doing a LyLo showdown on Day 1.

[Equinox]

This is the kind of thing you accused Katsuki of doing with you and Faraday in Tiger MetaTiger, I believe (or perhaps it was just me in the dead QT? Again, can't check files, but it was a traitor-cop looking for yet more stuff to lob on a player they were locked on a 1v1 against when a simple flip would dictate the other's lynch).

If, in your mind, there is no other possibility than for me and Riss to be a scumteam, why are you looking for yet more things to pin on me? By your own logic, it seems there is only one viable scumteam, so unless you are backtracking in this idea, I don't know how it makes sense for Equinox-town to

not

be calling me scum with plenty of confirmation bias; you don't need extra ammunition.

The difference here is I am not a cop with a result or claiming to be one. While the majority of my read on you is based on process of elimination, that is not helpful to someone like Robocopter87 who, very unfortunately, is not on the same page, and I can't actively put him on the same page. To get around that, I build a case on you, and it's a case I've already presented previously, albeit as a one-liner.

[Equinox]

There is a big problem with your logic, Equinox. If you flip town and I'm lynched, we lose. We can only mislynch once.

Work that out tomorrow? Besides, I'm having a lot of trouble seeing how you came to the conclusions that you did after having combed over the game a second time, so I can only conclude that you're scum.

This is the kind of thing you accused Katsuki of doing with you and Faraday in Tiger MetaTiger, I believe (or perhaps it was just me in the dead QT? Again, can't check files, but it was a traitor-cop looking for yet more stuff to lob on a player they were locked on a 1v1 against when a simple flip would dictate the other's lynch).

If, in your mind, there is no other possibility than for me and Riss to be a scumteam, why are you looking for yet more things to pin on me? By your own logic, it seems there is only one viable scumteam, so unless you are backtracking in this idea, I don't know how it makes sense for Equinox-town to

not

be calling me scum with plenty of confirmation bias; you don't need extra ammunition.

[Equinox]

BLOODY QUOTE TAGS

[Equinox]

Voidedmafia, Robocopter87 is not scum. I am dead serious. Ask Rainbowdash later on if you're not convinced, but he dropped a strong tell. Given how the game has gone, I really, really doubt that he was coached into committing said tell.

Preview edit: Huh.

[Equinox]

Sorry, DoomYoshi.

Vote: DoomYoshi

[Equinox]

Congratulations Equi, you made a bad player look scummy.

I never said anything about Riss_'s play, so you're accusing me of the wrong thing.

Rainbowdash, Tierce never figured out who the mason pair was. That's the reason why Riss_ had no idea, and it's also why Tierce continued to put me in the scum pairings that she did when she would have been better served by pairing me with someone else. Even if Tierce did figure it out closer to the end, when it was too late to change course, she likely never said anything in the QuickTopic because her partner would have a better chance of survival if s/he was as natural as possible. Observe your reaction to DoomYoshi.

[Equinox]

@Equi - Yes I see... but if he is scum he is doing an awesome job of making me bite on WIFOM. Look at his reads! I have a hard time believing he is scum from them.

Yes, DoomYoshi's reads really suck. That's probably more of a reflection on experience, though, especially considering that he's had to ask the other mason to claim. Apart from that, look at how he's keeping his options open: Lynch Voidedmafia because he's scum, but, wait, can we lynch Equinox first in case she threw Tierce under the bus so that we don't have to deal with that in scary, scary LyLo?

Nobody else can be scum here. Robocopter87 voted Tierce when he would have gotten away with lynching Equinox first and then following my instructions of lynching Tierce and Riss_.

[Equinox]

Let's dance.

Vote: Rainbowdash

Robocopter87, I'm town, so please vote Rainbowdash. Admittedly, I've got nothing on Rainbowdash except that I'm fairly certain that you aren't Tierce's partner, so that's something you get to sort out yourself.

Preview edit: Well, now, since we agree that Robocopter87 can't possibly be scum, how about we skip the formalities and get right down to voting each other?

[Equinox]

Might as well answer this.

@Equinox - What was your reasoning to vote Tierce day one?

Timeline time!

While I was looking into Tierce's case on Cogito Ergo Sum, I noticed that Cogito Ergo Sum had a strong read of Voidedmafia, and Voidedmafia was behaving similarly towards Cogito Ergo Sum. That was confirmed when Voidedmafia responded to Rainbowdash's question about Voidedmafia's strongest town read. That left me to sort out the other 4 players.

It took me about a day and a half to eliminate Robocopter87 and, subsequently, Rainbowdash, which left me with Riss_ and Tierce. Cogito Ergo Sum wanted to lynch me and Riss_, so I asked him to compromise with me and lynch Riss_ on the condition that, if Riss_ flipped town, he was free to push my lynch.

Between that and Rainbowdash voting Tierce, there's some hullabaloo between me and Tierce. When Rainbowdash votes Tierce, I decide to switch over because I figured Tierce would be a harder lynch than Riss_ on account of Tierce's play style, so I should take any opportunity to lynch the harder to kill of the two.

Preview edit: You should've been like me and just not posted a case at all, then maybe Robocopter87 would have to do actual work~

[Equinox]

Town lost.

[Equinox]

Why the fuck would I lie to you? The game is over.