In post 23, PiggyGal15 wrote:I'm a stalker N
I brought up the v/la as a means to end my RVS while letting things stay in RVS because I know things are going to stay in RVS even when things actually get serious. It happens. It's why I don't like RVS, because even when it obviously come to an end, new players that haven't posted yet still look to RVS to join in the conversation - so it was a way to let the other 5ish people come in without feeling the need to awkwardly stay in RVS - call my logic flawed, but when you know something is inevitable, it's best just to give in and join their side - which I get a feeling will become my lynch very soon :/
So conflicted about this post... the jumpiness looks scummy but when I look at her motivation it appears genuine. Nonetheless, Piggy, have you always hated RVS?
22 and
24 I like N's suspicions of Piggy and his questions. However one thing to ask is - why would it matter if the games Piggy stalked micros/newbies? Or am I misunderstanding that statement you made?
In post 27, Sixty wrote:uo.ou
Vote: PiggyGal15
(L-2)
We can count three different reasons to sniff this way.
Well,
four.
All of these posts suck and I can already see the headache and frustration in trying to determine Sixty's alignment. *sigh*
Equinox do you normally bandwagon like this? Without much reasoning other than "just cause". CES level of wagoning.
32 Not gonna lie that made me laugh.
In post 48, absta101 wrote:
I got a town read from his OMGUS vote.
Why was it scummy for me to unvote?
How?
All in all page 2 made me want to kill myself with the amount of content it didn't have.
Thor's posts are making me feel better about him. I need to read Zach's insane world again since I was so, so wrong about him that game.
In post 52, absta101 wrote:I believe I would've voted absta if I were you. The reason being I didn't comment on anything, I just voted.
What was your townread on Piggy at this point?
In post 56, Sixty wrote:So you're going to consciously do something scummy and say "oh well done you get a Town read" when you're called on it?
How is that any different from you did?
57 So you're the meta king that Mehdi was talking about... Do you have any scum games completed on this site that I could read?
I don't think we have ever had the pleasure of playing together.
In post 79, Sixty wrote:No analysis; calling one scum on the wagon and not bothering to deconstruct it is a lazy attempt to show work. She is hoping the pressure will go away if she seems disinterested on the wagon, but she is not trying to scumhunt.
I liked your case except for this point. This line is reaching if I've ever seen it. Where do you get the opinion that any of her "I love my wagon posts" were work? And you say that she is disinterested in the wagon, yet goes on to explain reasoning for some of the people game?
Thor i think that avatar bit in that MD thread may actually be true.
(never changing oversoul's avatar. ever. lol)
Thor, what is your opinion of Cerulean's
post 82? More specifically their comments towards you.
Tammy/Empire, what do you have to say about "Piggy awkwardly starting her towngames" after I showed you Futurama Mafia where she basically did the same exact thing in her first post. I can link to other games where she does not awkwardly start her town games as well.
I have a follow up question to this, so don't let me forget.
Also, random bit about that hydra in general. Empire, are you going to UM for Law School? I live close to Miami. Tammy, I have the perfect name for our to be created hydra.
Thor and Cerulean interaction reads fairly genuine although I really do not like the snark from Thor. His earlier posts and inquisitions of the other players in the game had me thinking his town, but I generally find the snarkiness to be antitown. He still answered Cerulean in full so I guess it is just a personality thing.
Piggy, be completely honest, why did you start *this* game like you did?
Do you find replacing into a game to still "count" for you? I'm not elaborating on this second question.
This is probably going to require some serious meta research of Piggy.
In post 103, Cerulean wrote:Hey Thor! Hi! How ya doin? When you get done licking your little boy wounds, us grown ups are going to actually be looking for scum. Care to join us?
Ya. This snark can go away too.
In post 111, Cerulean wrote:I cant wait for Tuesday when Oversoul starts posting so I can get a clearer read of that slot, btw.
Why? Tammy I don't think we've played a game together other than maybe Good vs. Evil and Team Mafia unless I am forgetting games. Why do you think you have such an accurate take on my meta?
In post 112, Equinox wrote:...and there's absta101 who Soul2277 says has acted weird before as town or something. Regardless, I'll park my vote here because, well, I don't like him. Despite showing little reservation voting me at the start, he's hesitated at voting for Voidedmafia, on whom he's claimed he's "leaning scum."
While I am suspicious of Equinox for her posts in the beginning of the game this is a good point about absta.
Noting this post.
Voided looks similar in his pushes from DDR and it isn't clouded by the catchup post. Although the general bitchiness present in the game at this point is leaking into a lot of player's posts. Can we all take a breather?
Equinox says that she has to verify things a lot. Note this for future to see if she has verified what she said would.
In post 134, Sixty wrote:We were voting absta101 to see who would switch wagons if we did that. There were several voices raised against absta101 yet no votes going ----> that way, so we were checking who felt happy jumping off Piggy and onto someone else who was gathering suspicion. Not much came of it.
So what does that explain about the people on Piggy's wagon?
In post 135, Thor665 wrote:So I'm a lesser town read than N because, even though I'm doing more townish things I concern you more?
Do you have any other feelings about this general reasoning?
In post 136, Thor665 wrote:Hurm. Looking over stuff Cerulean is actually obv. town unless Piggy is scum.
Cerulean can still answer my questions though because the slot strikes me as pedantic and it will amuse me.
Unvote: Cerulean
Vote: Voided
Let's do a Piggy counter wagon for lulz.
It took you three minutes to go from "I'll give you a case about Ceru.let me finish probing them, sixty" to "they are obvtown?
Filler from Voided While this is what I would expect from Voided scum, his tone in the point that Mehdi brought up feels as if it is town. I need to look into Dirty Dealing to see if he did this style after we started applying pressure to him.
In post 142, absta101 wrote:So many posts!
Mehdi is a town read.
I'm not confident in my Voided read at all. I've been so wrong about him before.
Note.
In post 149, Voidedmafia wrote:What happened to that "Oh, dear, I may be wrong on him" attitude?
(also, 5th ISO? So you're just responding to me, is that it?)
This
In post 149, Voidedmafia wrote:But I know I'm town, yet don't know if you and/or Equi are town. Therefore, if Equi is called scummy for something you also did (or didn't) do, why should I not call you scummy for it, too?
and this display Voided's attitude towards absta. It looks like anger, but the rhetorical nature of it all looks contrived and designed to fling mud onto absta.
I think I've found my twin I really like Jesse's post. His question to Voided is exactly the reaction I had since I thought it was fairly obvious why absta posted that post. I like his push and suspicion of Piggy since he isn't letting go of her awkward opening. I like his suspicion of Equinox and the fact that he quotes a post of hers for reference later. The only thing I don't completely like is the fact that he says he is waiting on a page or two. I do do this a lot because I like to wait and see reactions for certain things but I try not to post what I am doing because that will ruin the spontaneity and the truthfulness of those reactions because now people know someone is waiting for them to say something and may adjust their reaction accordingly. However the motivation is there, just not the execution.
In post 158, JesseSheffield wrote: In post 156, Soul2277 wrote:P-edit: jesse I think ceru already explained her feelings on thor. And why wait to out reads? Reads are malleable and trying to hide them is never useful (especially in a nightless game).
That and what does noting this mean? Noting it as a town tell, scum tell, future associative tell, what? Being that vague doesn't say a thing there.
No no... wasn't asking you. I think its great that you're attempting to answer questions specifically asked to other people but I mean usually there's a reason they're directed at someone else. I also wasn't aware that stating you're going to post reads (which could be referred back to if I didn't hold up that end of the bargain) was hiding them.
And noting provides an easy potential reference point later in the game.
No need to be an ass to him about it.
In post 161, PiggyGal15 wrote:So there's 7 pages now, and all you're doing is reiterating what's already been said, just phrased slightly differently?
This reaction is completely unwarranted.
You called for him to post in the game. What do you expect him to post? If he is doing it a reread of the game up to that point, information is already going to be available to him and he is going to end up talking about stuff that has already happened.
I am interested to know what Tammy thinks of this Piggy post as well.
What do you mean? They were rather catty to each other earlier in the game.
In post 167, JesseSheffield wrote:Thor: Alright. RVS meta on you tucked away. I completely disagree but every player is touchy about their RVS theories so that's fine. It seems to me that absta is playing this game with a Mafiascum Theory 101 logic. i.e. "OMGUS vote? Okay you're town." Answering someone's question, then immediately following with a reactionary question that may or may not really do all that much in terms of scumhunting, it just seems like the appropriate thing to say like,
Is this the first game you've played in a while? I don't think that is general MS theory at all.
Also, about absta, do you think it is willful cluelessness or actual "I don't fucking know"?
The reaction to Mehdi in this post explains the bitchiness that I quoted earlier and really goes to show the motivation of Jesse in my opinion.
In post 171, Thor665 wrote:I feel like when you first used the word clueless you meant "not knowing how to play the game"
Now you are clearly stating "not knowing people's alignments"
Which did you mean, and go back to 167 and walk me through that last bit again to make sure I grok it?
Weren't you the one criticizing Sixty about not understanding a point you were trying to make about Cerulean? This is pretty hypocritical in my mind since Jesse states explicitly "cluesless about everybody".
In post 201, Sixty wrote:Hence the question. How can you turn absta’s misstep into the game a Town-tell? Right now you’re saying “he’s playing like absta”. Which, well, I guess that’s better than what people say about either of us most games, but etc..
Unless I am misunderstanding something....
you won't explain the meta behind your reads for the sake of future games (i.e. people will change their meta), you won't explain meta this way but you say that you have seen this before in Piggy, but you want Mehdi to explain meta why he thinks absta is town...?
In post 201, Sixty wrote:On the other hand we have JesseShef throwing himself in front of absta for reasons we’ll surely understand eventually.
What exactly are you getting at here?
In post 202, Sixty wrote:Tammy: Stop bitching at others please and thank you. Between Thor and Jesse, you're already making this game a painful drag. It's one thing to try and rile people up to figure out alignments, but at this stage it feels like you're pointlessly hamming it up.
I mean she's Misty to Empire's Starmie but QFT.
In post 206, JesseSheffield wrote:And a lot of it has to do with their interaction with Thor. Thor’s been the most vocal, on point focused player contributing the most scumhunting across a broad range of players.
Why do you say this? You're going to have to explain because while I find some of his posts to have town intent there are some that I have no idea why he would ask this and the hypocrisy that I pointed out earlier makes me question my read on him. Caveat, do you find Thor to be the most town at this point in the game?
206 and 207 I really like
Looking at Voided I am having trouble determining his alignment. I guess it was easier in Dirty Dealing because he was actually willing to go toe to toe with me and my cases against him which I find scum generally do not want to do (although some specific players will). It really kinda sucks I was inactive and unable to poke at him when he was posting this. I am with him about Thor because I find Thor's play deteroirating as the game goes on. Him not explaining Jesse's question about asking about the fluff post isn't what I had in mind from a town voided, and the preemptive yes this is fluff post because Voided had no trouble posting that in Dirty Dealing despite my problems with it that I immediately made a comment on. :\
In post 228, Voidedmafia wrote:I wasn't gonna go all-out analysis mode, no, but I did give some pretty concise thoughts on the points I focused on. Saying more than I did felt like it'd be too wordy and fluffy.
You're okay with still posting the fluff that you labeled as such though?
A little tired from reading everything since stuff is just getting rehashed. I am little surprised that Tammy didn't think Jesse was town but then again I remember her not reading me well I think from GvE and I would say our town play is pretty similar especially from that first post.
In post 231, Thor665 wrote:Not counting at least one ongoing - to the best of my awareness: no.
Whydidn't you asnwer the first part of the post?
In post 232, JesseSheffield wrote:Whoops, wrong. If you’d looked a little deeper you’d have realized I’ve never played with Thor on this account which means I played him on an alt. I’ve got three other alts and I’ve been here since 2008 sooo... that just got awkward.
lol'd.
Although this does explain his weird MS 101 comment earlier that I didn't like. Then again, I'm not familiar with that "logic 101" that he was referring to.
How do you get that from Jesse's posts?
In post 237, JesseSheffield wrote:So until you get your act together, you aren't getting any cooperation from me. Because THAT would be anti-town play on my part.
Are you saying it is anti-town not to cooperate or anti-town to cooperate with someone who you think is scum? Or something else entirely?
In post 241, N wrote:This is such a cop out. You're saying me wagonning in RVS is a town-tell and when I press for more info on where you got that idea from, you say ongoing games? How can something you've picked up from my ongoing games be a town-tell? You don't know my alignment in those games and if I try and press you too hard you can just avoid talking about ongoing games.
This made me reconsider a lot of things. I've definitely been in the place that Piggy is where I think I know someone's alignment based on an ongoing game. Tierce and Faraday can back me up on that. They were the victims of my weakness when it comes to that which makes me reconsider my opinion about Piggy and the things she's saying. However I definitely agree with N here because I do find that to be a cop out as he explained.
In post 241, N wrote:I know this townread is "gone" now because I disappeared, but it was a pretty shit reason for a townread anyway. I was pretty much talking to her about my own meta; that's a towntell now is it? (This isn't just for Cerulean; I saw other people say similar things.)
What?
I am pretty sure Cerulean said you were town for the motivation of your questioning to Piggy.
What do you say about that now that I've explained that. I have another question to add.
Derp I just remembered I forgot what other question I was going to ask someone else and forgot to put it in the doc. God damn it. >_>
In post 242, Thor665 wrote:I kinda was - it was very derpy of you. Though mostly because somehow N was more towny than me.
Do you find that Sixty's disappointment in the town for not finding them is town is warranted?
I didn't realize that being offended at not being called town was such a prevailing emotion. I thought I was alone on that.
Living up to expectations. You didn't there. At least to me and probably to voided.
I liked your point about voided in the beginning of this post though.
The fuck? Not really seeing the point to this comment. I can understand if you are offended that he posted that you don't know how to scumhunt or where to begin, but then, why no follow up?
I don't think that is what Voided was getting at with that comment.
In post 244, JesseSheffield wrote:And considering these are supposedly Cerulean’s biggest scumspects, they sure do a lot of unnecessary fighting with players they supposedly have a town read on
That isn't necessarily true for what it is worth. I have suspects but that doesn't mean I have a townread on everyone else just because my biggest suspects are still alive.
By the way, I thought Cerulean had given their reason why they didn't like the case on Sixty and it was pretty clear.
245 The short responses between absta and voided is getting tedious as fuck to read since they don't really seem to have much effort into each other just a bone to pick with one another. *sigh* This game is getting highly annoying to read.
In post 254, Thor665 wrote:@Jesse - You should vote him then - then someone will be getting somewhere.
What was this answering?
In post 259, Sixty wrote:The truth is, at this point this puppyhalf wants to kill literally half the game. Indiscriminately. Devil take them all. And after said puppyhalf calms down a little, said puppyhalf still wants to fire blindly into the crowd of {Cerulean, absta, JesseShef, Soul, PiggyGal}
are these the people that you still want the devil to take or are these the people after the devil has taken others?
That was a pretty loaded comment.
Im really kinda glad I missed the animosity bug that seems to be biting everyone.
In post 259, Sixty wrote:And this is factually incorrect and at the recent forefront of a steady stream of terrible attempts to push on this slot.
Of the five, Soul frankly smurfs this puppyhalf off most.
Why? You just said that the weak attempts were why you suspect us... when your vote is the epitome of weak.
Forgive me if I don't belive this due to psychological related reasons and the fact that normally other people judge whether or not someone is a good player. But that was bitchy and snipey ofme.
In post 293, JesseSheffield wrote:Its just like well... other than the obvious reason than try to convince someone you're not scum I don't know if its something a town player would bring up,
oh lol this is something I do all the time >_>b
In post 299, JesseSheffield wrote:
Other than Cerulean being "obv. town", which as you know is always such a... convincing... rationale, I'd love to see where you explained some rational reasons as to why Cerulean is town. And with all meta talk aside please. Its getting pretty old.
I'd like to see this answered as well.
306 too long to quote (i'm not THAT mean)
tammy's comments about her playstyle remind me of my own and my own opinions about my own
the justification and explanation appears genuine to me and I can follow the train of thought fairly easily
In post 319, Justin Timberlake wrote:Sorry, you're going to have to deal with Faradays trolling a little longer.
I'm about half way through page 10 and the read through is actually taking quite a bit longer then I anticipated it to.
try actually responding to it
;_;
In post 322, Thor665 wrote:I really do feel that if you can't say why someone is scum in under 2 sentences than they're probably not scum.
You've been providing examples of evidence to support your case.
I don't think you've actually written out the case.
Think thesis statement.
err...
I need to look something about this
Thor have there been any scumgames recently where you've been pressured in?
Regfan, re: your massive reads list, I agree with Jesse, Cerulean, N, but I have problems with absta and Thor and Piggy.
I think I might be on to something with regards to getting a definite alignment read of Piggy, but I am not sure.
Regards to absta read - playing devils advocate, why do you think that would be a towntell? While I agree I've been burned by too many people doing scummy shit and then me writing them off because it made no sense for scum to do.
Regards to Thor, I had a stronger townlean on him in the beginning of the game when he was poking at other people but as the game progressed his actions and tone grew more bitter than what I normally see. I think there also might be something there akin to the piggy read, but I have to look it up first to make sense of anything.
Also in your experience regfan, has empire's meta related reads normally been wrong? from that one post he referred to in catching venmar it seems no, but you have more familiarity with him.
If you find Cerulean to be your biggest townread, why would you vote with Voided mafia over sixty? This really isn't a big issue but I want to frame your mindset at the time
332 - I am in agreement with Voided's 2nd and 3rd points.
And since I've seen Voided's flip it is coloring my view of things. I amtoo slow and this ame is too fast for me
In post 335, Justin Timberlake wrote: In post 259, Sixty wrote:And this is factually incorrect and at the recent forefront of a steady stream of terrible attempts to push on this slot.
Yeah honestly their attempt at bussing you is actually really garbage and they voted you for a bad reason.
of course i'm a funny troll guy xd and don't really know what I'm talking about since I only skimmed their iso looking for their vote.
What? This is where things get heated Faraday and Regfan and I should probably write up the post I should have written months ago to save myself and coutnless other players heart ache.
Noting the use of "their"here. Did you just mean as a whole because we are a hydra or some other reason?
Haha. I chuckled at this.
Ok the posts after that were all massively stupidbut
I really don't want to read either of Cerulean's wall material but I feel like I have to because I wall and it would be disrespectful not plus they both probably put a large amount of time into constructing them (definitely Empire)
*sigh* lol.
ok so empire's case actually wasn't that hard to read but then again I am taking it for granted and didn't click any of the links other than my vague remembrance of Tierce in our scumgame together whichbrings me to a point. Why didn't you include Paranoia Mafia? I think it is her third most recent scumgame?
Tammy's case reminds me of cases I make and i like the point she is making about Sixty keeping the door open on a read flip for tammy "she can do that as towntoo"
I don't understand what you mean by frame case and I feel like you stating that undermines what you said about the case making matching Empire's play.
In post 402, Justin Timberlake wrote:Empire, here's the scum games of Mehdi that I've found;
Open 443,
Mico 5,
Micro 4. I've only skim read them so far but his tone there is very mechanical and lacks emotion completely which matches his play here - that said in those games he's a lot more straight forward with what his reads are and willing to take stances which he's done less of this game. I'll need to relook in more depth later because my heads hurting now but Faraday thinks Sixty - Soul are cross-bussing.
Still really hoping that Sixtys blitz hammer on Voided was a gambit rather than a jump at a mslynch.
why would that change your mind about anything?
And here you specifically state crossbussing so don't give me that bullshit "semantics" argument. You literally SAY cross bussing.
In post 406, Justin Timberlake wrote:And yeah this is fake. I'd expect oversoul to be much more WTF as town. They probably mentioned it in the scum qt.
Told ya they were cross bussing Regfan. (I think it's far more likely Sixty cut their losses and took a mislynch rather than were morons and threw the game away for their team. Although it was prob over anyway. Wonder what that mans for their scumteam?)
What the fuck in what way?
And yet again you say cross bussing here again.... so forgive me when I lash out at you changing your words.
In post 430, Sixty wrote:Sorry to disappoint, but that wasn't a scum claim in any way. We think we have this game under control and feel comfortable to lynch everyone who isn't part of the set.
doesn't that contradcit what you said earlier about you not liking people who found you scummy?
In post 459, Justin Timberlake wrote:I know Faraloser has commented on this already but I actually want a much bigger explanation and Post 455 really doesn't give that to me although elements of it does feel somewhat genuine but I rather not attempt to base a read on you solely of 'genuine frustration' because I think you can fake that to a degree. So lets go through this 1) When in the past have either of us misread you because from memory I've played 10? games where we were both town and I've read you correctly in 9 out of those 10 with the one exception being where I had a scum-read on your predecessor and Faradays saying he doesn't remember misreading you. 2) You're stating that this game is 'proof' that we can't read you correctly - what have you specifically done in this game that can be really attributed to your meta and reading of your meta, hunting into Mehdi, not you. 3) You state that you have 'discussed' the game with Medhi at times and have 'logs' but if that's the case then what's the massive need for you to 'catch-up' and provide content, if you've been discussing reads and thoughts than his posts would contain your thoughts too but that's not the case. So no, Faradays point about 'you' specifically not being the person bussing Sixty is actually correct. 4) Instead of 'raging' and getting upset actually speak logically with us, state your reads, your content and catch up thoughts and our read on Sixty is obvious if you're reading the game at all.
I'm just going to jump into this
You both read me wrong in GvE. And by reading wrong that still does include predecessor play but not in the way you think.
If you both had read me correctly you would have not pushed for my lynch despite my predecessor's play. You still pushed for my lynch. Because of my predecessor's play and my general flailing around at the time.
White Flag most of the townread was primarily developed from Captain Haddock's play not my own.
I died before you replaced into Children of Hurin although Faraday was right about me there.
I am trying to remember my other games with you. Flame warriors you read me farily accurately early on but then faltered, you were a hydra that game
you were a hydra in sexy sedilla, which was also my first game ever
I know i'm forgetting more
faraday had me as town very early on in bastard sanity dram game
Faraday read me as town as his seraph role in Children of hurin with mina as lb
faraday's comments are trolly in GvE and I think he was coming around to a townread as were you but you both definitely took effort to get to that point
So while I'm not going to say that you are objectively right, the times that we have actually PLAYED start to finish in the same slot I think is 0 unless I am forgetting a game. But the time we played 1 and 1 where both of you were available you both misread me.
I will concede the second point but the fact that you were engaging me and calling me scum after I started posting was where I was getting that emotion from. Imsorry I took it out of context like that and it was unfair for me to say that.
My discussion is more or less "I don't like sixty. have you read them" "no, v/la havent really read the gamein full just skimming. I can never really read those two players anyway" "do you have any reads" "kinda but not really I think piggy is scum but cant really explain why b/c technically ongoing, i think thor is town for early questions, voided might be scum desotn look atually interested" and so forth.
Im sorry for raging at you and hoefully by the time I post this I wll have explained myself through my own meta discussion and why i act the way I do when people suspect me.
And to set the record straight, bussing is pushing for your scumbuddy to get lynched whether or not it is successful has nothing to do with it. It is still bussing.
is this supposed to mean anything to me?
In post 460, Sixty wrote:This is terrible. Faraday occasionally slips like that, but it's hardly a stretch to assume scum connections pre-flip. You're saying that having scum-scum reads is scummy and shows scum knowledge? You're essentially accusing Faraday of lining up lynches, without showing how he's doing it in a scummy manner.
I didnt say that I am saying that he was trying to tie me to you because he knows you are scum and get a mislynch out of it.
I just remembered Maiden Mafia, yes you did read me correctly there but not initially and only afteryou discussed it with your hydra partner from what i remember
In post 474, Justin Timberlake wrote: In post 470, Thor665 wrote:The hammer sucked monkey testes. That said, the play is fairly reminiscent of their play in Reverse Mafia which was a not dissimilar setup mentality.
Them being in the game as opposed to out of the game is fairly different.
their SUPER TOWN PLAN relies on their reads being sheeped after death or something. when if they were town they'd see that acting like a fucking parama wannabe is not a way to get listened to. I don't think they'd have failed to account for the damage the quickhammer would have caused if town and voided was town.
I have to agree with this especially since Tierce commonly bemoans dying Night 1 and no one listening to her so I figured in a nightless game should be especially vocal about things.
He hasnt really posted anything of worth the past times he posted with the hammer and all by the way JT. How do you find this to be stronger town than us?
In post 519, JesseSheffield wrote:2. The quip about both being town reads is ridiculous I don’t even understand how someone could possibly have both Soul and JT as town reads.
What are your reads on us and JT?
Thor why not vote Sixty? Why is absta town?
Tammy, you are right that the moments I have been here I haven't been here here. And it isn't hard to scroll through their iso to look at the players they are pushing. It is hard to read and analyze posts from multiple different people across several pages but now I'm making excuses.
I would really like to be able to explain why I am so irritable as of late but unless you go researching into why, I cannot tell you. And that is all on that subject that I am personally going to say.
done
