Open 465 - Wot's... Uh the Deal? (Game Over! Town Win!)
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Adam-12
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In post 39, Shrimp85 wrote:Well, I assumed it was sarcastic, because it just seemed so ridiculous to vote someone (seriously) because of that in the start of the game.
Maybe I was wrong.
If I was wrong, then I guess my vote would have turned from a semi-serious vote to a serious vote.
I don't understand. How would Mala being serious about Levi make your vote serious for Mollie??-
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I think I will do this:
Vote Shrimp
Vote Count
Levianthan93 (L-4): Malakittens
Pirate Mollie (L-3): Shrimp85, ProHawk
Shrimp85 (L-2): Pirate Mollie, Adam-12, Malakittens
With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
Deadline is Monday, December 17, 2012 at 12:40 PM ESTLast edited by Majiffy on Mon Nov 26, 2012 2:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.-
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By the way, Leviathon, the mafia use quicktopic to chat to each other.
I was told that the mafia could only use it at night.
But it's a seperate website, so I don't understand how it would be possible to NOT be able to chat during the day.
I'mma just ask the mod...
@MOD, could you explain a wee bit about this? thanks
This quote would demonstrate someone that is a "complete newb" to mafia and someone that is not familiar with how things work here. I think that he has far more experience that what he is portraying here; i.e. he's not a complete newb to Mafia or this site.
I also think he used the Levi issue as an excuse to vote for Mollie disingenuously.-
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In post 81, Mantisdreamz wrote:is this a question for the sake of a question?
In post 27, Adam-12 wrote:@Shrimp: So is your vote serious or not, I can't seem to tell...
If you read his vote post he at the same time mentions his vote as RVS in a playful manner & as a serious vote for a scum tell. I hold that as disingenuous voting where he can swing responsibility both ways. So, no not a useless question at all.-
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In post 82, ProHawk wrote:No, first time together. Adam, whats your read on mollie?
I don't like the process she went through to vote Levi and if she is scum I read her as very calm and collected scum. Her demeanor would indicate that is possible for her.-
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In post 87, Mantisdreamz wrote:In post 83, Adam-12 wrote:In post 81, Mantisdreamz wrote:is this a question for the sake of a question?
In post 27, Adam-12 wrote:@Shrimp: So is your vote serious or not, I can't seem to tell...
If you read his vote post he at the same time mentions his vote as RVS in a playful manner & as a serious vote for a scum tell. I hold that as disingenuous voting where he can swing responsibility both ways. So, no not a useless question at all.
It looked like shrimp maybe voted molly just as a joke at first. but then, when it was brought to his attention that malakitten was actually serious about her vote on leviathan for not confirming right away, and then saw molly's post where she somewhat furthered the idea by asking mala if it was because she thought leviathan wanted more time in pre scum chat... then his vote turned to a serious one.
i don't know if that makes sense.
guess what i'm trying to say is that i don't find shrimp all that suspicious. and i am wondering about molly myself.
Did you read the link that Mala provided about this?-
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In post 103, Mantisdreamz wrote:In post 101, Adam-12 wrote:Well the "otherwise occupied" is what really sticks for me.
Yea... but when it all comes down to it, do you think it's a good solid reason for a vote?
Yes.-
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In post 104, Adam-12 wrote:Its a major wagon atm.
Ok, forget it.
Levi is obviously town, his explanation proves that whereas Shrimp's explanation proves he is scum.
The point is that the original case on Levi IS a good reason to vote (the only problem is Levi is town).-
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In post 117, Shrimp85 wrote:
malakittens wrote:
Explain how your vote turns from a semi-serious vote to a serious vote? I don't completely understand.
Where did you learn about this quick topic?
My vote turns serious mode because I find the reason to vote Leviathon very lacking.
This is not an explanation to the specific question of why your voteturnedserious; its obvious that you found the case (erroneously) lacking on Levi. The question is actually:Why did your vote turn serious once you discovered that Mala wasn't being sarcastic.And btw, how in the heck could you even see Mala as being sarcastic in the first place?? These statements of yours lack a genuine feel to them and I think you made them so you could justify yourself in your vote for Mollie which you appeared to be having some self-conscious trouble with.
And for the second question, Adam-12 should be able to answer this question if he actually DID read my history.
In my first game the discussion about quicktopic came up. Check it for yourself if you like.
Adam-12 wrote:
shrimp85 wrote:@MOD, could you explain a wee bit about this? thanks
This quote would demonstrate someone that is a "complete newb" to mafia and someone that is not familiar with how things work here. I think that he has far more experience that what he is portraying here; i.e. he's not a complete newb to Mafia or this site.
Ofcourse I'm not a complete noob, I never stated that I was.
adam-12 wrote:@Shrimp: How long have you been playing Mafia?
You can see this right under my profile pic.
This is an outright lie based on my research and its the reason why I am sure you're scum. Your disingenuous voting and related unsupportable statements are what brought me to look at you more closely and discover this. Clearly you have manufactured a newb-town image here out of whole cloth.
adam-12 wrote:I think he has also tried to avoid responsibility for all this by claiming to be drinking.
Whaat? Are you serious? I never said that, I made typo's, I did not try to avoid any resposibility... besides, what responsibilities DO we have?
You don't even know what you're talking about.
We have responsibilities with our voting and I am sure you are quite well aware of that.-
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In post 118, pirate mollie wrote:In post 84, Adam-12 wrote:In post 82, ProHawk wrote:No, first time together. Adam, whats your read on mollie?
I don't like the process she went through to vote Levi andif she is scum I read her as very calm and collected scum. Her demeanor would indicate that is possible for her.
lol, where the fuck would you get that idea.
From the way you handled the probing from Hawk.-
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Shrimp, I need to ask you a serious question. If you want to help the town find scum, I am asking you to please answer it.
Would you be able to make the following statement: "I"m not a total newb because I've played alot of Mafia in r/l and have been hanging out on this site."
Vote Count
Pirate Mollie (L-4):ProHawkProHawk
Shrimp85 (L-4): Adam-12, ProHawk
Mantis (L-4): Pirate Mollie
Adam-12 (L-4): Shrimp85, Guile
Not Voting: Code, Levi, Mantis, Mala, Adam-12
With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
Deadline is Monday, December 17, 2012 at 12:40 PM ESTLast edited by Majiffy on Tue Nov 27, 2012 8:58 am, edited 2 times in total.-
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In post 122, Shrimp85 wrote:First off, I want to say that mantisdreamz seems to be the only one understanding why and what I did. you can see that in post post 87.
His posts are full off useless questions.
In post 89, Adam-12 wrote:Not at all. In both cases valuable information was concluded from that question.
Where is this valuable information?
It showed me that Levi was town for example.
adam-12 wrote:Levi is obviously town, his explanation proves that whereas Shrimp's explanation proves he is scum.
The point is that the original case on Levi IS a good reason to vote (the only problem is Levi is town).
Now Levi IS obviously town?
Why?
Hawk very well pointed out what I also believe about Levi: His playstyle precludes the motivation to stall a Q/T. This is also further brought out by his defense post.-
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When the vote seemed to be a serious one, that's when mine turned serious, because that would mean that pirate mollie purposely joined a serious vote in RVS stage.
Meaning pirate mollie was creating a wagonbased on so little information.
Did you read the link Mala posted about this? He NAILED scum doing this.-
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Ok, based on all this posting from Shrimp I think his mindset is clear when he voted for Mollie and I think he really believed it. I can even support his vote, after a fashion.
When I ISO'ed what I thought was his sitewide posting history earlier I thought I found a condemning quote from him but upon going back to try and find it again, I can't find it. I had several pages open at the time and was also working. I'm not sure who the quote was actually from but its not from him.
This means my case on him has evaporated.
I'm sure someone will say something like, "Oh, look he votes you and you cave" or "The wagon dissipates and you hop off" but I really don't care. The most important thing is the integrity of my play.
I need to digest the recent flurry of posts and re-read the day to find a new direction.
Unvote-
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In post 133, pirate mollie wrote:In post 132, Adam-12 wrote:You never explained your vote for Shrimp in the first place. So how did he look more scummy?
in post #25 he looked like he was hedging his bets; offering up a rvs vote yes leaving wiggle room for it to turn serious. which is exactly what he did.
Ya I think we both saw that. I think he has adequately explained it as well.-
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In post 137, Shrimp85 wrote:
Adam-12 wrote:It showed me that Levi was town for example.
Here you still don't answer my question, you just state that his answer shows you he is town...how does it do so?
It got me to ISO him and see his level of experience, and him to confirm it in thread.
In post 31, leviathan93 wrote:mafia talk time? they can do that? I thought you could only do that during a night thing. and go where mollie? hasn't the game just started? as for being on the sight, I'm always on the sight or at least I always have the sight on tab on my computer even if i'm sleeping. that way its easy access to follow my games and see who post what and I can be updated faster and respond quicker.
This post just totally nails it.-
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OK upon skimming the thread here, its obvious that certain people think asking questions is "baaaaad" and that somehow I MUST have scum intent because I do so. I will lay that to rest right now. I do not ask questions without a reason and the number one reason I do so is to gain information. Information is the thing we have the least of.
Those that are incorrectly attributing scum intent to my questions can just as easily see the other side of the coin and see town intent if they wished.
Of course SOME questions ARE scummy and should be lynched upon (rolefishing for instance or questions that contain a scum slip). Pointless questions can also be seen as posturing which would be scummy.
Simply, asking questions is a major way that I scum hunt. The other is watching everything that everyone does.
I will be digesting the thread anew now that everyone is present and giving my reads.-
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Ok, done.
Mala -- I like his original case on Levi and find it more likely from town than scum. His shift from Levi and subsequent vote on Shrimp was also quite good. His queries of Levi sound genuine town trying to verify alignment. I like his interjection into Mantis-Mollie early on. I think his unvote of Shrimp was warranted with the caveat. I expect he will have more content upon his return and see him as town.
Levi -- There is no doubt whatsoever that Levi is a very new player that would be incapable of understanding what stalling of confirmation is. There has been accusation in this thread that he does not have a town role pm (Blacksmith Gate) and that as a new player did not know how to properly claim town (as scum). I think this is possible. Even though my read on Levi is as very new town, I think this accusation could have merit and we need to keep it mind going forward. As it is I think he is town.
Mollie -- I did not like her early "asking of permission" to vote Levi which gave me an early possible scum read. I think its good to note her early calling out of Mantis. Even though her vote was not explained for Shrimp initially, she did so later on in the thread and sounded genuine about it. She also explained her initial vote for Levi and made me feel better about it as well. I think she might of misunderstood about Blacksmith Gate in her calling out of Mala which is evidenced by her later calling Mala town. Being consistent with her initial calling out of Mantis, she votes him on meta, at the very least this should bring Mantis to provide more definitive content which should be helpful. I like her appraisal of Shrimp, finding it quite accurate. I like and share her Hawk town read and find her explanation of it genuine. I especially like the interaction of Mollie-Hawk and find it quite genuine. Mollie has become a strong townread for me.
Shrimp -- I didn't like Shrimp's fencesat vote of Mollie (not because I had a town read on her at that time but because of simply what it was). I think he completely misread the Levi case which caused alot of confusion in this thread because of his reactions regarding it. At this point, I actually believe his Mod query on the QT as genuine based on his overall posts. I find his "wall of posts" style difficult to deal with and riddled with so many innacuracies that would require a larger wall to properly address. It took me quite awhile to finally understand what he was trying to say about the Blacksmith issue and I think that is a problem of imprecise/difficult wording; the same thing with his stance on the Levi issue and vote for Mollie. His OMGUS case on Mollie is completely inaccurate. His PR Gate is completely inaccurate. He has not understood Mollie's stance on Hawk. Ultimately his case on myself boils down to asking questions (which he has failed to understand the import of) and OMGUS. However, I must agree with Hawk regarding his town alignment. Based on what I have gleaned from his posts (it was very difficult), I must hold that he is town. I think it will help us to be able to look elsewhere for scum.
Hawk -- I like his perception regarding Levi being too new to prolong the confirmation (I think Shrimp was trying to say the same thing but it was too difficult for me to understand him). I like his Mala +town points for ending RVS. I also liked his initial read on Mollie with the way she voted for Levi and completely shared that view. I think his strong push on Mollie was very pro-town. I absolutely cannot fault him for his semantic-based argument, re: Shrimp. His quick reversal out of it and town read of Shrimp is very good. Again the Mollie-Hawk interactions are quite good. Hawk's content is light but I am not too worried about it, when he does post, it is quite good and I have him as town.
Mantis -- He asks Mollie for her summary of the game but adequately explains that it is also to get a read on her; based on their meta-playing history, I think I buy that. I think he has clearly misunderstood how I scum hunt; asking questions are not bad unless you can actually show that they have scum intent and this includes negating town intent. He defends Shrimp which I think shows insight because its not easy to do. I don't like how he didn't read Mala's link, re: confirmation stalling, but yet dismisses Mala's case. His post count is very light and I am not able to get a read on him. I think this is partly because he entered the game late and was not able to participate in the early game with the rest of us. I agree with Hawk that we need to see more content from Mantis.
Code -- One post. Not liking this. Obviously this can't continue.
Guille -- One post. He has obviously misunderstood my method of scum hunting; blanket labeling questions as "scum loaded" is too easy. Has a scum read on Mollie?? I think its clear he has simply skimmed this thread. We definitely need to see more content from him than this.
I actually was quite confused about this game when I first started this post. But now I am able to see that we have established a good block of reads based on solid information. I think scum reside in the following:
Code, Guille, Mantis
Towards this end:
Vote Guille-
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In post 166, Malakittens wrote:
Adam:
Others have asked this, but I'm going to ask it in a different way. How does asking about Mafia experience and asking questions of games did you play with Player "X" help this game? What information so far have you gotten from them?
What makes me wonder is this:
Or let me put it another way, you don't think scum would not confirm because they are chatting in the Q/T & would be otherwise occupied? Isn't it a reasonable motivation for ultimately falling asleep instead of confirming?
It seems as if you took my stance very seriously, but with held a vote. I am not sure why exactly you withheld it.
Levi is obviously town, his explanation proves that whereas Shrimp's explanation proves he is scum.
The point is that the original case on Levi IS a good reason to vote (the only problem is Levi is town).
When did you see that it was a good reason to vote?
You never really explain why those explanations prove each or even point that direction.
I've only skimmed your post yet but I figured I would answer this since I saw it.
Asking if one player has played with another shows their familiarity with their gameplay for meta reasons which will help me to direct further queries. Trying to identify & clarify a certain "familiarity" that players seem to exhibit towards each other also could help identify scum teams.
Ok the point on Levi was very good but Shrimp dismissed it like it was garbage and then based all of his subsequent actions on that. I had a scum read on Shrimp and needed to find out if he really believed what he was saying regarding the Levi case because it looked to me like he mas maufacturing a viewpoint to justify his behavior. Also, Mantis dismissed the case and I brought it up again to further promote my scum read on Shrimp.
Even though the case on Levi is very good, of course it doesn't mean that he is ironclad 100% scum. If you look in the thread you see that I queried Levi quite strongly (what Mantis called "inferring") and was ready to vote him based on his response. His subsequent response made me back off of him quite quickly as I think everyone else did as well. Thats when I turned my attention to Shrimp.
Looks like popular opinion is with the stupid way. Fine, I didn't love any of you anyway.
Vote Count
Mantis (L-4): Pirate Mollie
Adam-12 (L-3): Shrimp85, Guile
Prohawk (L-4): Malakittens
Guile (L-3): Adam-12, ProHawk
Not Voting: Code, Levi, Mantis
With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
Deadline is Monday, December 17, 2012 at 12:40 PM ESTLast edited by Majiffy on Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.-
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In post 189, Mantisdreamz wrote:though, i don't really get this post (at the time didn't get it much either)
In post 107, Adam-12 wrote:In post 104, Adam-12 wrote:Its a major wagon atm.
Ok, forget it.
Levi is obviously town, his explanation proves that whereas Shrimp's explanation proves he is scum.
The point is that the original case on Levi IS a good reason to vote (the only problem is Levi is town).
because Adam, weren't we just talking about how you think it's not unreasonable for Levi to be possible scum because he took long to confirm?
and then it seemed like a few posts later, you were stating that Levi was obvious town. how did you make that leap?
There are two separate things here:
1) The CASE against Levi which is strong but was dismissed by you and Shrimp
2) Levi's alignment which appears town (with the caveat about a bad newbtown claim but I actually doubt that actually)
So its one thing to talk about the validity of the case (to validate motivations for initially pushing it and invalidate motivations for decrying its validity) but its something another to talk about his alignment which was made clear subsequent to the case being generated, right?-
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^^^^ Sorry this link
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Nothing apart from the confirmation stall which WAS a good case even though it ended up being wrong.
It was tough, but ultimately I have Shrimp-town as well.-
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In post 201, Mantisdreamz wrote:
just read it. that's not always going to work
Correct but it is a valid scum tell and is a strong case. That's one of the reasons why Shrimp's reaction confused me so much.-
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In post 185, Mantisdreamz wrote:In post 184, ProHawk wrote:Mantis, who is scum?
i just said
!In post 183, Mantisdreamz wrote:. i'll do a reread of the last several pages
but off the top of my head, and from last night's reading,
i think malakitten and leviathan look town
Mala looks town? I thought you didn't like the Levi case??
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