Open 490: Donner Party Mafia (Game Over)

[Malakittens]

Sup guys. I'm replacing Cyg, but don't have the time right now to catch up, but I will after class and lunch.

[Malakittens]

I hate you, but just in this moment. When I want to post off my phone you have to go change your Avi to match OT/MM. So everytime I read a post I thought it was the same person. Now you guys have to wait until 10pm EST for a computer generated post. Your loss.

P-Edit:

If him changing his Avi to match someone else's is a decent to unvote then I don't believe any of your votes were serious. That is such a terribad reason to unvote someone you felt was scum for so long.

[Malakittens]

If you think Ot is scum, Syr, why are you voting Aus rather than him?

[Malakittens]

Sorry guys. I need to do this tomorrow my head is currently spinning so I need to take meds and go to bed. Good news I get off from work early, but also go in a decent time so if I'm able to get up early might be done before I go into work.

[Malakittens]

Getting to this game now. Post incoming soonish.

[Malakittens]

Soo, yay for a string of non-RVS voters. Apparently there is some weird hidden knowledge that RVS gives off information, but I never once used how to use it. So RVS or non-RVS doesn't bother me. Really if I could I would get every game to not be RVS started and get straight to the meat of the game.

Okay so DC let FF go due to saying her meta usually doesn't do RVS. When you went and researched: is it alignment indictivate? Does she do (RSV) as Mafia and doesn't do it as town? Or does she not do it at all as either alignment?

USC: I'm watching you.

@Syr:

There could be many reasons why someone wouldn't want to draw attention to themselves. You seem to just looked for a simple reason to make your vote serious after the fact.

@Declan:

Why are you somewhat defending Syr in your post #27?
You also seem to defend MeowMix from Syr a bit. Without really commenting on the fact he was looking for any reason at all to justify the vote into something serious.

@MeowMix:

What did you gain as results from those reactions? Post #30.

Not liking USC. That was a stupid reason to hop onto the wagon. Not to mention he didn't comment anything on stuff other then Syr/MeowMix.

I do however like MeowMix's response. He looks like he's trying to get some content going even though he's drawing attention to himself. I'm not really sure if I see scum trying to do this.

@CD:

Yeah; I thought the same basically until I got up to the part. I still feel that Syr is trying to draw a flimsy reason into making it a serious vote.
Meh, past games do affect future games only because people meta using past games to try and draw reasons to vote someone or not to vote someone, but people need to understand that people do change and either improve or they are not on their best game.
Ignoring is totes a scum-tell. Jkjkjkjk.
Post #38.

@USC:

How did MeowMix slip? Referring to post #45.

USC is tunneling a bit on MeowMix without commenting towards anyone else.

@Declan:

Making excuses does not equal scum. As town and scum can both make excuses to try and get themselves out a hole. It's more a null-tell.

Seriously, Fitz, seriously. Nothing else to add other then voting the largest wagon so far?

( I'm surprised no one asked MeowMix for his results rather then first jumping down his throat. Then maybe, just maybe if he didn't respond with something you could call it bogus. )

FF seems to be sliding by. Just a general feel.

GoodMorning's post #59 was terribad. I got an odd vibe. He didn't really FoS anyone, but got some slight townreads

(I think)

. He didn't vote or really ask any questions.

I would be okay with a cat-bloc, but not for death to the dogs. We have an abundant amount of current fluffiness in the thread and we need to thin the herd of NONBELIEVERS.
In all seriousness though. WTF to the rest of the post. Slight defense of FF noted due to RVS. You also failed to comment on anything else such as current MeowMix wagon or any other posts that appeared after.
Post #62.

I like Syr's #63.

I also like Aus's post #66.
How does USC's vote feel town? I don't feel it being town, but I can agree with how Fitz's vote looks.

He never really had his vote on MeowMix in the first place, USC? Post #73.

I feel as CD's vote here is really justified as I got the same feeling while reading the thread. Post # 75.

How would you be okay with a MeowMix lynch today if you believe his wagon is somewhat scum pushed? Information lynches do not help the town as much as a scum lynch would.

(Don't like this post at all. Reeks of scum not caring who might be lynched)

Post #84.

@FF:

Why are you not giving your reads out currently, but just asking questions? You seem to be giving me the feel of trying to keep your hands clean.
Post #85.

(FF's play style reminds me of Mollie's a bit, but less posts. We have an impostor. ): )

@GM:

Explain your slight scum read on CD? Seems a bit OMGUS-Y, but just without placing a vote. Also is # = DC? Also why MeowMix?
Post #96.

I am not really sure why, but I'm reading #103 as backpedaling. You say MeowMix is a good information lynch even though you don't agree with people on the wagon, but you don't want to bother doing anything about it. Yet you want a scum lynch. None of it really makes sense to me.

Nothing wrong with using gut as I use it all the time. Helps gain better reads in the long run.

Why can't it be pure gut, USC? Post #107.

Duudee. #108was a semi-well constructed post, but after all that you just want to vote MeowMix who is currently the largest wagon? I also find he's fishing a bit at the end because I think he's trying to high-light something else.

(I do not like this post;

FoS

)

I'm reading #111as he's scared to gain unnecessary attention.

(Cookies to Declan & CD)

Fitz's post #114 reflects a lot of my emotions especially ones towards DC, Aus and Ot.

(Can we not give RANDOM nicknames to everyone in the thread? 666 is quite annoying to give to DC even though I do know my Roman Numerals, it will make it harder to know who a post is directed too. >.> )

(I also remember harping during the last Donner Party game about hunting for the SK instead of just going after 3 mafia on a certain player because I was doing some research that the SK is likely to pretend to hunt for the SK to draw attention away from themselves. I was proven wrong there, but I still am very weary of those who do it.)

Eh, I'm not really seeing the slip that you pointed out in #126, Declan.
As I stated above that I read it as backpedaling because he was trying to avoid attention due to the comment.

Still not liking the fishing in Oto's post #138.

Kinda liking USC's post 142 as town. I feel town are more likely to go back and reread meta then scum are.

@GM:

What happened to your slight scum read on CD, # and MeowMix?

(Your play does feel different then the game I replaced into. I will figure out why I feel that way later on or when I get less-busy.)

Post #143

Not currently sure about how I feel regarding Post #144.
I got too many mixed feels.

(I'm about to fluff for a second here - Pardon! )

How long are days/nights on EM?

Mmmk; yeah I see that now Syr. At the time I wasn't caught up and the whole similar avi's was annoying.

I'm reading Syrana as town. His recent posts have been giving me those vibes. I especially love #176.

@USC: What is giving you the feeling that it's a T/T?
Post #179.

@Otolia:

He needed to repeat because I wasn't caught up, but now that I am and in understanding I can see where he is coming from. I always find it odd when someone doesn't vote their highest scum read so I always comment regarding it.
Post #184.

Eh @ 194.
He doesn't comment about CD's current vote on him, but wants DC prodded. I never like those posts as they feel like they are trying to be helpful, but aren't.

@DC:

What do you currently think about Fitz?

@USC: Why do you feel GM is town? I'm not really feeling that, but he's also not my strongest scumread so I won't be voting there as of now.
Also you say you will be putting your vote to good use elsewhere, but you never really revoted anywhere? Who are you currently looking at for possible scum?

~~~

So, I feel like FF is sliding under the radar.
I really didn't like the early wagon on MeowMix and it felt moreso scummery.
I really didn't like Aus's posts regarding MeowMix and the whole lynch information vs. scum lynch.
I am reading Syrana as town recently.
Not really seeing the town in GM and agree with CD regarding some of his posts. Coupled with the fact I'm getting a different feel from him then what I did in the other game we played together.
Declan's posts to me has been kinda flimsy, but then that might just be because I'm not seeing what he's seeing.
DC seems to be really unattached to this game which I have yet to figure out if that could be alignment indicative.
Otolia is giving me a vibe that he feels safe. Which to some people that's a town tell because when they think of someone as panicky they think scum, but I always think opposite and find when someone feels safe/unaffected by votes they could be scum.

~~

With that I'm going to VOTE: Aus as his posts previously didn't sit well with me.

[Malakittens]

Yeah;

I just need to ISO you to get your reads.

Mollie is another player on this site. She's quite awesome.

[Malakittens]

Okay guys. There are questions in that summary post I would like answered pretty please. More towards USC, CD and Aus.

The difference between mine and yours GM is mine actually asked questions, but yours was really hard to read and felt fake to me like you just put something together to give the illusion that you're reading along, but nothing that you did influenced your reads.

@FF:

I do big posts as catch up on both alignments. So it's really a null tell rather then indicative of an alignment, but it depends on my mood because there has been games where I didn't feel like catching up.

From going by experience this setup needs active town rather then disinterested because that is the factor of winnin or losing the game. If you read the last two games the most recent had a non active town more so a more non active vig and that cost us the game. The game before had an active town and it was won.

[Malakittens]

No, last was a general comment. Sorry. I'm on a phone and my friend was bothering me about food so I couldn't space it correctly.

[Malakittens]

No, last was a general comment. Sorry. I'm on a phone and my friend was bothering me about food so I couldn't space it correctly.

No worries.

Other than my snark, what are your thoughts about my list?

Snark doesn't really bother me. I want to ISO to check and make sure your list matches up with your ISO. I'll get back to you.

[Malakittens]

Kaykaykay.

Reason why FF I wanted to reread your iSo is because I feel you have a lot of null reads while there is a lot of discussion.
As I previously stated I feel like you are flying under the radar which that initially gave me a bad feeling.

Question:

Do you like to passively gain your reads or aggressively? I don't know you and I don't know your current play style.

Your Syr, Fitz town reads do fit with your iSO although you don't like how the MeowMix wagon came started off. Aus has been under heat and you haven't really danced around with him persay.

I can see part of your case on DC, but he seems to be disinterested, but that doesn't mean he's scum for it.

As for GM - why didn't you talk to him or even bring it up when he talked about Otolia? I think you are basing part of your scum reads on not agreeing with wagons rather then actually scum hunting.

Overall - I'm not really seeing you as town, but partially scum because I'm not really seeing a lot of hunting from you.

[Malakittens]

I read the lists like this:

Town
Null
Null/leaning scum
Scum

Correct me if I'm wrong?

[Malakittens]

Point still stands the amount of nulls is unnerving. The scum reads look like ones who have taken a lot of heat.

[Malakittens]

Oh dear lord. What did you do to your post?

[Malakittens]

Duh, scum probably hacked it

Okay, DC, do you have anything else to add other then this? Such as reads on others other then Fitz and current happenings?

[Malakittens]

Duh, scum probably hacked it

Okay, DC, do you have anything else to add other then this? Such as reads on others other then Fitz and current happenings?

...Really, you are going to criticize someone for making a joke? It hasn't even been 24 hours since I made my catchup post. Relax.

Reads will come when they come. However, I can inform you that you are on my scumlist.

Still don't see how 198 is a catchup post. It looks like you're just quoting a bunch of stuff and throwing text into it. You seem to be defending MeowMix from votes, but not pointing out why you see MeowMix as town.

Am I scum because I'm dancing around with FF who's your town read or is it because I don't agree with some of your scum reads?

You're super disinterested and it's not helpful at all.

[Malakittens]

Doesn't change the fact you're still tunneling on Fitz.

[Malakittens]

It only appears that way because I went awol from the thread after voting fitz and I haven't finished my reads post.

So I'm still getting the sense you feel Fitz is scum because if you felt he was somewhat town you would have unvoted him in that reads post.

I do have to ask what is so scummy about Fitz? I'm reading him as town, but that's because we are sharing similar thoughts on certain people.

[Malakittens]

You are tunneling him therefore you believe he's scum. You're tunneling him due to his RVS vote on FF after you meta'd FF to say she could be town. You didn't like the fact he disregarded your post and voted FF. Then you didn't like his vote on MeowMix.

Am I accurate in the above is the reasons you feel Fitz is scum?

[Malakittens]

Okay guys. There are questions in that summary post I would like answered pretty please. More towards USC, CD and Aus.

I didn't see any questions directed at me?

But the ignoring not being a scumtell mentioned back on page 2 was to do with ignoring rvs votes.

Yeah, you're right. Thought I had a question for you, but I was wrong.

The whole ignoring was a joke comment.

~~
@FF:

Yeah, I asked him those questions in my huge post and still waiting for answers. He seemed to either not read all of the post or skipped it entirely.

[Malakittens]

I'm glad I'm boring, but you're boring too.

What is my back and forth between DC called? Somewhat boring?

[Malakittens]

Point still stands the amount of nulls is unnerving.

The scum reads look like ones who have taken a lot of heat.

Not sure why, but coming back to this...What quantity of nulls is not unnerving after this quantity of posts?

Because there is enough posts by certain players to sway towards leaning town or scum. They don't have to be solid town or solid scum reads, but they can't just be sitting in the middle. There's 10 pages of content.. If you can't read someone interact with them to find a way to get a read on them.

[Malakittens]

Point still stands the amount of nulls is unnerving.

The scum reads look like ones who have taken a lot of heat.

Not sure why, but coming back to this...What quantity of nulls is not unnerving after this quantity of posts?

Because there is enough posts by certain players to sway towards leaning town or scum. They don't have to be solid town or solid scum reads, but they can't just be sitting in the middle. There's 10 pages of content.. If you can't read someone interact with them to find a way to get a read on them.

That didn't answer my question. How many nulls do you think are too many?

Currently I say more than 3-4 makes me uneasy.

[Malakittens]

Point still stands the amount of nulls is unnerving.

The scum reads look like ones who have taken a lot of heat.

Not sure why, but coming back to this...What quantity of nulls is not unnerving after this quantity of posts?

Because there is enough posts by certain players to sway towards leaning town or scum. They don't have to be solid town or solid scum reads, but they can't just be sitting in the middle. There's 10 pages of content.. If you can't read someone interact with them to find a way to get a read on them.

That didn't answer my question. How many nulls do you think are too many?

Currently I say more than 3-4 makes me uneasy.

Then, until I have a reasonable amount of experiental meta, I'm going to make you uneasy. In a game this size, if I end day 1 with 6 non-null reads I'm happy. If it turns out I'm mostly correct, I'm ecstatic. When goodmorning replaced in, I went from 1 player I have been in a game with to 2. Both the players I have experience with are non-null.

Fair enough.

I have only completed games with four people here.

[Malakittens]

Regarding Mala's question about DC,
His argument is garbage and based completely in RVS. That is not good scum hunting. And I feel like he has done more deflection than actual scum hunting. And on top of that he is inactive as hell.
I'm not sure if it was Mala's point, but somebody said that he could be uninterested town. This is a possibility and a reasonable.

Oh, but I never said town. I said disinterested.

What makes you think he's town? Considering you said his posts have been 'full of holes' that doesn't give me the feel that you believe he's town, but rather leaning scummy.

~~

@Gm:

There's a huge difference between our posts. Yours looks scummy as hell, but mine actually gives some reason to my current reads or current wanting to push people. I just feel yours is fake or something as its not inclusive. Why are you giving me so much heat yet CD got so little? Are you going to start calling me a scum read too? Seems a bit you're towering into omgusy level.

I already answered it. There's content going around, but I play differently as if I don't have a solid read - ill be in constant conversation in order to get a firmer read which I feel FF isn't doing.

[Malakittens]

@Otolia:

I know you're focusing a lot on who you're voting and those who you feel are scum and those votes.

Can I ask your current thoughts on DC, USC and me?

[Malakittens]

I wanted to get a post in, but I had to work late and don't currently have the time. I might be able to post later tonight off my phone, but that's not certain.

@MoD: I'm V/La until Tuesday April 16th.

[Malakittens]

I don't see GM's comment as him applying his meta to Aus. I see it as a general comment.

[Malakittens]

Hmm. Syr's post 367 was a pretty accurate description of an Aus case.

Although, I'm quite disturbed on the lack of comments towards it, but also the activity overall right now.

USC - why are you waiting to hammer? Why don't you want to vote him now and put him to L-1?

@Fitz: Are you reading along? There is current things being tossed about, but you are choosing not to comment, but instead prod dodging.

[Malakittens]

I just want your current read/thoughts on Ot, Syr and DC actually.

[Malakittens]

@DC:

Didn't you say that I was on your possible scum list? What happened to that?

[Malakittens]

@Mala, I thought you were scummy for your extremely in-depth catchup post, it looked like you were trying to hard to be town, however, I went through other games you replaced in as town and you did the same thing so its null.

Figured that the catch-up post was the reason for you calling me scum. Just wanted to check up on it as I didn't see it in the reads list. Thanks for letting me know.

[Malakittens]

@mala, why did you think I had found your catchup post suspicious? I never said anything about it.

Because you never said anything prior to me being a scum-read until I did the catch-up post. So, either I thought you saw that scummy as a whole or you thought you saw glimpses of my scum meta. So it was an either or and was waiting until you explained what you found scummy about me.

[Malakittens]

Yeah. The no reveal is pretty annoying in the setup as its unknown which one was the vig, SK or mafia kill.

CD - you're different right now.

Also, DC, you know difference of opinion doesn't make someone scum.. Right?

Welcome Sven. Also his walls aren't that big at least not compared to Syr's walls. There's a difference in play between DC and USC from my last game. Meta reads USC is probably town as scum he hops a bit on wagons and as for DC he seems a bit well.. Idc.. Out of it? I have to go reread some of DC's old games.

Sven - can you explain why you have me as town? Or at least feel like I'm town..

[Malakittens]

Also, DC, you know difference of opinion doesn't make someone scum.. Right?

Please explain how this is at all relevant.

Your case that is revolving GM is based on his 'bs' response about self-meta. As people and I have stated he didn't try to apply his self meta on Aus, but simply stated that I say this as scum. You are trying to sling GM's self-meta comment as scummy even though that's not what he was implying which is twisting it in a way to make someone look scummy.

@Everyone:

May I have you comment on the end of this post by GM. Does it seem like GM is trying to apply his meta onto Aus or do you just believe it's a general comment made by GM?

[Malakittens]

You are lucky this setup has plurality lynches and that no lynch is not allowed in this setup because there's one day to the DL and you are trying to cause a mass switch onto a CW which can be seen as trying to protect Aus and/or trying to force a no lynch.

I believe GM is scummy for my own reasons, but I'll gladly admit it's just gut plus a difference of feel from the last game I played in with him.

[Malakittens]

He has posted and claimed. located here

Find it interesting Ot said what I said to DC a few hours later.

[Malakittens]

Why

are

you

nervous about hammering?

[Malakittens]

Only thing that gets me about someone being 'scared' to hammer is that they are not ready for the negative lashback of the said player they are going to hammer if they turn out to be town. USC feels as if he knows Aus will flip town..

Dunno, CD, it's a gut feel.
Such as you did things to cause reactions, but here you aren't and if you are they aren't as noticeable..
It's bad because I have only seen you play as town and this could potentially mean you're scum.

[Malakittens]

Trying to say that scum tried to no kill?

Yeah the two deaths are interesting in terms of why there's not three, but so many factors can go into play.

[Malakittens]

^ Yeah, cause soft claiming is so beneficial for the town too.

Hey, DC, did I tell you why I hate tunneling? It's confirmation bias at it's best and you my friend are feeeeeet deep into it.

From what I have seen of your scum games - Yay - I can use two because I was directly involved and one happened to be your partner. The micro I felt you were trying to find footing with the Mastin case to see what stuck and to go from there and P.S. you tunneled hardcore on him until he died.

VOTE: DCL

Currently you are playing very similar to your micro game. The open game is a bit different because you replaced into it and I always find a player plays differently while replacing in or playing from start to finish.

[Malakittens]

Okay.

@Fery - do you like the wagon or the posts above you? It's unclear exactly in your post so I want clarification.

@DC - no, I don't believe I have played with you when you were town.

You're tunneling because you have been remotely on target with GM or Fritz. GM because you're trying to push a 'LAL' cards when he didn't look like he was lying. I feel as if you used that as a misrep to see if other followed. Along with the fact it was so late in Day 1 to do it that it wouldn't have happened.

You might have multiple scum reads, but I felt they have just upped and disappeared.

@Oto: You are trying to be a knight in white shining armor? I mean you haven't even supplied a better lynch candidate. Although - I do have to agree with you that the wagon built fast, but you haven't even commented regarding who could be scum on the wagon or anything so your comment is suspect in itself.

[Malakittens]

So those two were my biggest suspects. I dont think we will get much value in trying to figure out which is which.

If people want to do some work for the good cause you could look at auspicious wagon and try to find bad votes/lazy votes... people that maybee had higher suspects just recently but jumped to auspicious when the wagon started snowballin.

Behave, I will be back soon.

Explain this? Because I don't see anything in your ISO that says USC was a suspect. In fact I though towards the end of the day he was a town read actually because his meta was closely related to his town meta.

So what changed from him goin from a town read to a top suspect?

[Malakittens]

You're tunneling because you have been remotely on target with GM or Fritz.

Tunneling is when you focus on just one person all game and ignore everything else that is going on. I haven't done that. I have voted multiple people, interacted with everyone, provided reads. No, I am not tunneling and I don't think you know what tunneling even is.

Thanks, I do know what tunneling is. In fact I recently lost a town game because scum tunneled on me from D1-2.

I also know how anti-town it is..

[Malakittens]

Seriously DC. Please let him answer it before you post your thoughts on the matter. >.>

[Malakittens]

Well the argument you gave saying I was tunneling didn't match up with what tunneling actually is.

pedit, relax he can still answer it. My post didn't change that.

No, your post could alter what he was going to say. >.>

There was no need for you to say what you said. It was meaningless.

[Malakittens]

Nope. I didn't put him at L-1.. That was Fery. I will admit I put him at L-2, but I feel it was justified. As I stated his cases felt very similar to what he did in a past scum game of his. He is respectfully tunneling on both Fitz and GM. He voted at a time on GM that didn't matter and felt it was late in the day to do so. I also felt you were in my mindset because you shared the same thought process of I did with DC and Sven and their votes.

So don't try and misrep me saying I put him at L-1 when I didn't.

[Malakittens]

Pro tip: I'm defensive as either alignment. So I will gladly admit that it's not indictive of any alignment.

Well if you look at the timing of which I called out the random Day 1 vote it was only DC who had voted, but Sven hadnt at the time. DC to me was trying to back away from his intent to hammer. I think you see I called out USC for the same exact thing. Sven was a bit different as he didn't say I have intent to hammer. Instead I felt his vote on CD as a joke or not serious, but DC's vote was serious and quite ill timed.

Now I already have explained how I wish for Sven to explain the differences in what he was saying in day 1 to what he's saying currently. It's a jump that surprises me tbh and I could infact see some scum intent in it.

The one game I played with GM.. He was aboustely aggressive as hell and he was 3rd party as I said his game is quite different in play overall.

[Malakittens]

So

those two were my biggest suspects

. I dont think we will get much value in trying to figure out which is which.

If people want to do some work for the good cause you could look at auspicious wagon and try to find bad votes/lazy votes... people that maybee had higher suspects just recently but jumped to auspicious when the wagon started snowballin.

Behave, I will be back soon.

Explain this then more the bolded part..

Oh, don't call me a joke because I don't like policy lynches, but I will push one so hard on you.

[Malakittens]

I asked you what changed to change him your read on him. You can't just move I have USC leaning town due to meta and then say he's one of my two biggest suspects.

[Malakittens]

Acording to the games I found on Unseencamo, he is somehow town.

Mala/camo/ffer/syry

Care to retract your previously statement?

[Malakittens]

Although putting him in a list of town reads and saying "is somehow town" leaves you wide open to vote him on Day break. See why that looked so sketchy to me? Even possibility of a scum slip or at best a major backtrack of forgetfulness.

(Brb, texts going off about ending episode of a top show)

[Malakittens]

Eh, I don't really see anything from fitz that would make me move him into the scum pile. If anything, I have him leaning town.

Svenskt on the other hand hasn't done much to make me change my mind on his slot either.

I would support a lynch on DCL, Otalooloo, or Svenkst at this point in time. Not necessarily in that order.

I am not going to take this seriously for now. If you are serious then bring a case that I can respond to.

Here is a hint, my biggest suspect + a guy i questioned about his stalling of hammering are dead... one is a night kill, I´d never in a million years make either of those kills.

Now you can go "SO THATS WHY YOU DID IT".

So why are you

distancing

yourself so much from these kills? This is WIFOM solely because we can't prove you didn't kill or killed them, but here you are going far out of your way to say 'Hey guys, I didn't do it nor would I do it!'

Please tell me though what's so off about either of those kills to you?

_____

I also don't see post 525 as townish, but I see it as someone trying to give someone a way out of a lie. Part of me thinks this means you guys wouldn't be scum partners because there was no need for DCL to post it unless he wanted to try and distance himself from you.

[Malakittens]

Well. The pure OMGUS doesn't give good feelings. Although.. I can see where he was coming from on moving Fery to a possible scum read.. I don't see a reason for him slighty moving me to the scum list other then him starting to OmGUs me and now he's doing it to Bulba.

I'm honestly quite confused on what I want to do.

I do think he's scum for pure OMGUS. Distancing away from the kills and then the major contradictions presented. Which one can be considered a decent scum slip -_-
Along with the fact he's like you're a joke. Then again those comments always annoys the aboustle hell out of me. It's like 'hi, I'm going to discredit what you say by calling it a joke'.

Flip side:

Town can always make slips that really aren't slips or mistakes.
Town can also make ate remarks.

So blech.

My two town reads are on the current wagon. (Syr & Fritz)

Along that I got an really odd gut feeling that CD was a kill made by Ot. Although, I can't really find a reason why I feel it, but I do. CD could have been killed by GM, but I feel CD was a bigger threat to Ot then GM.

[Malakittens]

Good thing you aren't going to rage quit because that would make you look more like scum because you were caught for terribad reasons even though they aren't so terribad.

Syr - I wouldn't mind it, but I do like to only vote if I have a decent reason. I don't really have any other reason then gut.

[Malakittens]

Last setup I played..

SK NK
Followed by vig NK
Followed by mafia NK

Setup before that.. We lynched the SK D1.. So NK's went like this:

Vig NK
Mafia NK


Although I really don't think this is set in stone and really depends on the mods decision.

[Malakittens]

Is this whole "vig had to have shot (or rather eaten, yum) someone N1" some sort of site-meta I don't know about? IME vig rarely shoots N1 and all this discussion about who shot what when and who might or might not have been saved is seriously WIFOM and a waste of time.

Last setup.. The town vig (me as replacement) was in active and didn't shoot N1 and we lost. An inactive vig or vig that doesn't shoot N1 does hurt the town. If I replaced in time - last game - I would have shot for the SK N1 because that's the best chance town has of winning. As SK has a 1 shot BP and 1 shot Rb immunity

[Malakittens]

Last setup I played..

SK NK
Followed by vig NK
Followed by mafia NK

Setup before that.. We lynched the SK D1.. So NK's went like this:

Vig NK
Mafia NK


Although I really don't think this is set in stone and really depends on the mods decision.

I have sent question.

Do you think the either kill makes sense for scum to make?

Not sure to be quite honest. As I said CD kinda looks like a scum kill possibly vig kill too, but USC looks kinda like a SK kill. Mainly USC wasn't a town read for everyone, but majority of most players.
SK wants to take out the more town looking players first as they can win against mafia during the night if they have their NK immunity in place.

[Malakittens]

Oto: I love how you missed all of things he did to discredit me. By calling my post a joke to deflect the pressure from him back onto me. There was indeed a difference in reads that had scum intent.

I don't like the flop he had on DC due to 1 post yet he didn't unvote. Which means he read the posts, but didn't read who posted or mixed up DC and I. (Which could have happened due to similar avatars)

[Malakittens]

Two Things:

You say I stick out because I didn't hop on the wagon? I have a tendency to not want to vote with scum reads plus the fact you are forgetting that I wasn't entirely sold on Sven-scum, but wasn't sold on him being town either. Fery it's very close to your posts other then I wrote out my thought process more instead of one liners. Only exceptions to that is when I have a super high scum read on the player and then I'll vote even if my scum reads are present at the wagon or if time is closing up and it's almost a NL happening.

As I stated before I have a gut feeling that CD is a kill done by Oto. Now I'm not sure if Oto is scum or the SK, but he's probably one of the two. I usually don't do much team hunting by itself, but focus on all three as scum.

____

Fery - you are on to talk.. You put DC up to L-1 with no apparent reason the start of Day 2 other then saying 'like'.

_____

GM's vote on Sven wasn't that good either. It looks as if he just put Sven at L-1 to draw a claim as he's been barely present in the thread. (I understand the V/LA, but seems as you are okay to vote people at L-1 with very little discussion in regards to them)

_______

Syr's intent to hammer wasn't good either. Only because as I stated I believe scum want to draw PR's out and that's exactly the way to go about doing them.

_______

@Sven's 641.

CD couldn't have been SK only because the RB wouldn't have affected her N1 due to the immunity.

_____

I'm so not liking Fery's recent posts. They seem to deflect everything to me yet she isn't voting me due to it. She says I been cheerleading yet she's doing the same exact thing right now. There's also the fact you seem to be disregarding all of your Day 1 reads which could or could not be a scum tell.

VOTE: Fery

_____

I'm still planning on looking at Oto when I get home from work to see if I can get any evidence that Oto killed CD because that's the feeling I got.

[Malakittens]

My vote is where I want it for now.

Don't like this. When I read it it looks as if you saying your vote isn't solid and you are planning on moving it in the future.

[Malakittens]

I was about to say.. Scum are aware that they have daytalk and could easily fake asking things like that. There's also the fact SK doesn't have any communcation with scum therefore you are removing the fact Oto could be SK.

Fery if you meta'd me you would find that I do NK analysis as town rather then scum. In fact as scum I will not do it at all and if asked straight up front - I ignore it as a whole.

[Malakittens]

I'm currently concerned with those who still want to push the Sven is scum card even though he claimed RB'er. I understand where you think he's scum, but what happens if he's the actual PR and you guys ended up lynching him off because you don't believe a claim.

@Sven - Explain why you are going to land your vote on GM?

@Fery - I understand you wanting to meta a player based on current games that you played with, but I'd never vote someone who's playing to their town meta as it's likely they will flip town and not scum.

Just because you aren't see killing vibes from Ot doesn't mean they aren't there.

CD's greatest suspects where Ot and GM. If I was SK or scum - I would have killed someone who was likely onto me to avoid having one more person on my neck the next day. You say it's a setup (yes in reality - it could be), but if Ot turns up to flip scum or SK - I'd be really pissed at myself when all neon signs are there yet I didn't do anything to stop it.

[Malakittens]

@Fery - I understand you wanting to meta a player based on current games that you played with, but I'd never vote someone who's playing to their town meta as it's likely they will flip town and not scum.

Is this self-meta here, or talking about someone else? I thought it was self-meta in the post I replied to.

It might be self-meta, but a few people here can back it up(if they wanted too). I may self-meta as either alignment, but it's never inaccurate.

There was one time in a Micro that I did NK analysis and scum tried to jump onto me saying I did the kill in order to set up player __ and I didn't and say I don't NK as scum. Then they had to backpedal to find out if it was true while I was tunneling on their scum partner.

So, it kinda bothers me when I do NK analysis and there's a similar reaction to what you had because it brings up memories from that game because scum panicked and tried to deflect it.

___________

@GM:

You are right it's WIFOM. There's enough evidence both ways that it can or can not be false. I just always hate when people push a lynch on a player who claims a PR when there's no sign of a Counter-Claim.

____________

@Bulb:

There are 2 other town PRs, the vig and the dietician respectably, both of which make the roleblocker small potatoes for scum PR-wise. I can see scum knowing roleblocker was dead, keeping the fake claim as a safety net, and searching for the other 2 PRs.

That's true, but if the RB'r is played correctly.. It has a huge chance of finding the SK for the town and not even counting it can stop the scum kills from going through.

The dietician is the scums biggest want to find on their list, but so is the vig and the RB because they are more at equal threats when it comes closer to endgame as the pool becomes smaller and it gets easier to stop kills.

[Malakittens]

I have an unusual gut radar and sometimes it's right and sometimes it's wrong and after I do NK analysis the radar is usually spot on. I have had scum members get defensive and panicky after they get trapped because they got trapped due to things they made during the nightphrase and not a slip that they made during discussion.

Fery staying away from the Sven could be scum staying away as well as town only because scum don't want the lashback from the PR claim and everyone carefully checking the people on the wagon. As I said town can be the same way too.

I really, really don't like Ot's posts. This feeling has not gone away and it has now surpassed the feeling I'm getting off Ferry. Post #697 is very freaken defensive.

VOTE: Oto

____

[Malakittens]

I think Oto is a good wagon. Since its not getting attention even though people have been trying to build it since Day 1.. Usually when a wagon is hard to build there's a high chance of it being scum..

[Malakittens]

The really biggest thing I have on DCL is that I feel he's playing similar to what he did when he was scum. I normally have a policy where I hate going after lurkers, but this setup that has lurkers or disinterested town usually lose the game for town.

If you don't believe me.. Take a look at the difference of the activity between the last two games of this setup.

In active and disinterested town
Vig wasn't active N1 - didn't shoot.
1 VT was disinterested majorly.
Town lost / mafia lost / Sk won.

[url=http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=23006[/url]
Very active town. Plan in motion on Day 1.

It now makes sense why I was trying to get DCL out of lurking and to be more active rather then tunneling as these things hurt the town in this setup. Other setups no because there is reveal, but this setup is so much harder without the reveal because you don't know who was what after they got killed.

Although, I might be okay with a DCL lynch I rather see what will come out after Oto gets pressure. DCL is currently on V/LA and the same goes with GM - both can be seen as easy targets since they aren't totally focused to defend themselves and/or scum hunt.

[Malakittens]

Nice. I would fuck up that link. -_-

[Malakittens]

Scum buddies don't want to be too eager to bus. Scum buddies don't know whether they want to bus. If they bus it's usually at L-2/L-1 areas.

A slower wagon usually is a sign of scum more because of that ascept by itself as scum do not care if they hop on town because they need to force a mislynch or force a claim out to find PRs.

Predit:

That or you were in busing range and your partner jumped onto the wagon.

[Malakittens]

Hey Syr..

Help me get some pressure on Oto? He looks happy to have the pressure off of him now that CDs killed and you haven't been focusing on him.

Plus I don't like how he tried to fish in the beginning. I understand everyone's concerns about casting doubt on Sven's claim, but he was pushing it and now he stopped. He also doesn't seem to be hunting anymore.

Plus the fact - everyone has practically ignored my vote on him - he included ignored the vote.
My gut is still pinging.

I think he's scum.

[Malakittens]

Actually past setups directly affect THIS current game. If players adapt a similar style to how a past game worked WILL increase the chances of the current game being won by town. If there's a bunch of inactive/disinterested players there's a chance one alignment will prevail over another. Town happens to lose with inactive/disinterred players.

What's the use of playing a game other then for fun if you don't learn from past mistakes? The more you read up on past games the more it helps improve a play style.

____

If Sven theoretically Tole blocked CD it wouldn't have affected him. If you read the setup the SK has a huge advantage over both scum AND town. They have a 1shot immunity to Rb and a 1 shot immunity to a kill (regardless if that kill is scum or town).

Which means either CD is scum who's killed got blocked.
CD is town vig who's kill got blocked.
Or CD is VT and the '3rd' kill was either on USC or CD.

___

Yes.
Mislynch theories have a high chance of scum on it, but also has a chance of scum avoiding it.

[Malakittens]

I think I might know why, but I'll let him answer that.

[Malakittens]

Fritz - may I ask you why you seem so paranoid about me brining up past games? Also you responded to two other posts, but haven't responded to the post that was directly towards you.

(I still believe he's a town read, but I believe his logic is flawed)

[Malakittens]

If you stop being arrogant for half a second and actually dig at the link from last setup you'll see what the hell I'm talking about.

The SK can really only be taken down by lynching them as the immunity for the RB/Kill actually overpowers both town/scum powers. The RB'er is best designed to block scum kills and the vig should be used to really find the SK. I went over a different approach last game because I wasn't able to be there last N1 which made me miss the cutoff for finding the SK.
Say vig targets Player 'A' and player 'A' isn't dead the following day: it means 1 of two things. The vig was role blocked or they found the SK and the vig now needs to DO everything in his/her power to get a lynch on player 'A'. It's even stronger if the Roleblocker is forced to claim and says he role blocked a different player. Only bad thing is the vig basically exposing himself if the Player 'A' survives especially if player 'A' is the SK.

The mafia/SK endgame the SK auto wins. The town auto loses because they don't have any kill or bulletproof Night wise unless the vig is still alive and even then they still lose.

Yes, there is still the gunsmith that can get a guilty on mafia/SK.

Long Story Short:

The SK is the #1 thing the town needs to find first in order to win.

__________

If you are really suspecting me because I'm bringing up past references to other games is quite frankly stupid. Having this information HELPS the town the most and not having it won't 'not' help the town, but largely will decrease a chance of winning.

__________

[Malakittens]

I hate to admit it, but Fitz is right about previous setups having nothing to do with the current one. In True Love mafia, everybody mass lover claimed, because it was pointed out that the only previous town win came after all the lovers had claimed. Scum won that game rather easily.

Fitz is wrong. It's how town ultzies the PR's is how they are going to win. Doesn't help when town lurks because it decreases any shot and makes them look scummy to the gunsmith who's target could be used elsewhere.

[Malakittens]

In other words;

Lynch Otolia today. He'll likely flip SK.

[Malakittens]

What just happened?..

[Malakittens]

Please note you know how I play as scum. If he 'was' my partner - I'd would have hopped on the wagon right away. Nice try

Anyways - I believe I'm dead tonight unless a miracle happens. Lynch Ot tom

[Malakittens]

I'm going to start off saying FoS: to Syr and Fery. All for that quick wagon onto Sven D2. I'm sure at least one of you is scum or SK. Either GM or Oto are another possible SK or scum. So neither of them are clear in my books, so FoS for you too even though.. I already had one on you.

VOTE: Oto

I don't like how that lynch on Sven was orchestrated and how it happened. Sven was right it was way to quick and you started to throw blame on anyone but you. Also to me that didn't seem like a slip.

[Malakittens]

It didn't look like a counter claim.

It looked like confirmation bias. I don't think Oto put much thought into it how Sven could have accidentally missed that part in regards to not knowing the SK had a 1 shot RB immunity. He saw what looked like a slip and went full head on heels to it. What did it cost us? a PR being lynched where we could have lynched scum instead.

[Malakittens]

I think he is SK who used confirmation bias on Sven. Town doesn't want to kill PR's as they are more helpful alive then dead. Even with this setup - Pr's alive towards endgame are bad, but Day 2 isn't at all near endgame. I think he is SK who pushed for a PR death. I'm also calling his little ATE bluff - if Sven flips town - Vig me tonight/lynch me Day 3.

[Malakittens]

@Bulba:

Why didn't you mention Fery's place on the wagon? Her vote is suspect at all costs and if I wasn't voting Oto - I'd be voting her if I had a double vote. >.>

Fery's vote post is here.
There was no reason for her vote at all during that post.

After Day 3 opened.Here was her reasons for voting Sven.
I thought it looked like a counter claim.

Here is where Oto specially stated it wasn't a counter-claim.

______

My top choices for scum/SK currently are:

Oto & Fery.

______

There was 7 minutes between her L-3 and Syr's hammer. She was around in the thread and Oto specially stated it wasn't a counter-claim. So she should have un-voted there. She came back after the hammer to reply to Oto's 'wtf' post.

[Malakittens]

Funny.

I self meta as both alignments. In regards to that - it's a null tell. You can't pin me scummy for it.

Secondly, I have been advocating for the SK death yes, but that's because last setup I didn't go after the SK and it fakeclaimed (vig) and lived to see endgame against mafia. I'm not allowing that mistake to happen again (at least until I die).

Syrana - Both you and Oto didn't like MeowMix. So, yes your votes were justified by that overlap, but what Sven said the 'wait and see' game was a perfectly reasonable thing to do. You risked killing off a PR - as I stated if Sven survived longer then a lynch on him was justified. I don't believe killing off a PR early as Day 2 is in a town mindset.

He may have thought of everything, but I don't feel he thought well into it. I think what he did wasn't in a town mindset. I think the lynch on Sven was fast paced and I believe scum ARE on it. Do I know who those scum are? No, but do I believe I have an idea? Yes.

You are also forgetting that CD could have been scum who's kill got blocked instead of being the vig.

You are also not putting into the fact Oto could be SK and the vig is still alive last night and they tried shooting Oto and the kill failed because of the immunity. Has any of this crossed your mind? I don't think so.

_____

You are also forgetting that I could be town just going after someone I believe is scum. You flopped hardcore on your read on me and that's pretty damn close to that I did as scum a while back in another game and I was able to survive. You kept calling me town throughout the prior days and now you shift when it's in your best interest.

For the record;

I do believe GM's vote is suspect, but I don't believe he's high on my list of being scum. Please tell me where you are getting I'm 'busing' GM because you are mistaken.

_____

The only thing that makes me weary of a SK or even a scum Oto is how he locked himself into the VT. That's the ONLY thing that makes me think he's possibly town out of everything because scum HATE, HATE being locked into a claim. Especially, when the time is right he could fake claim and actually win.

_____

Predit:

The DC kill could have also been made to focus attention on both GM or I. The same with the Fitz kill because Fitz was on my ass towards the end of Day 2. Or DC *could* have been a vig kill. Or guys what happens if all three; vig, SK & scum are alive and the kills overlapped yet again.

We aren't even sure if CD was mafia. We could have a solo mafia living amongst us.

The possibilities here are endlesss.

[Malakittens]

Here's what I think. I think Mala targeted Otolia last night, nothing happened. She knows he's the SK, but doesn't want to out herself as scum. She has to get rid of him to win at all costs.

You're assuming the vig is still alive then because SK = 1 kill, scum = 1 kill and the vig = 1 kill.
If I was scum who targeted SK-Oto then you would have seen 2 kills.

Now you are assuming the vig is still alive. If the vig was still alive who would they have killed? DC or Fitz?

____

&&&

I just had a thought on something.

UNVOTE: Oto

for the time being.

At least until I figure this thought out by reading ISO's.

[Malakittens]

So we don't know alignment of anyone;

We don't know if CD / USC was town or mafia. We clearly know neither were SK because if either were SK either or would have been living during Day 2.

^ CD / USC = Town or Mafia.

Fitz or DC = SK, Town or Mafia.

They could be either of the three.

__________

Now, if I take each kill and break it up into a pattern.

CD's main targets during Day 1 were GM and Oto.

USC didn't really have any solid reads. He did go after DC to an extent.

Fitz - Towards the end made a slight comment towards Syr, but we don't know anything of it because he's dead, but where he also voted me he had you (Syr) also listed towards scum. So Fitz theoretically could have been a kill to reduce a threat to either of us.

DC - Went after GM, Syr and I. Those were his top 3 suspects.

Now, we aren't sure if any of these players are mafia, sk or town. We already eliminated that CD/USC couldn't be an SK.

[Malakittens]

Spoiler:

Funny.

I self meta as both alignments. In regards to that - it's a null tell. You can't pin me scummy for it.

I don't like self meta. Period.

Secondly, I have been advocating for the SK death yes, but that's because last setup I didn't go after the SK and it fakeclaimed (vig) and lived to see endgame against mafia. I'm not allowing that mistake to happen again (at least until I die).

Going after the SK regardless of whether or not it's good for town is blatantly anti-town.

Syrana - Both you and Oto didn't like MeowMix. So, yes your votes were justified by that overlap, but what Sven said the 'wait and see' game was a perfectly reasonable thing to do. You risked killing off a PR - as I stated if Sven survived longer then a lynch on him was justified. I don't believe killing off a PR early as Day 2 is in a town mindset.

Yes, killing off a PR is a bad thing. However, in my prior post, I explained why I hammered.

He may have thought of everything, but I don't feel he thought well into it. I think what he did wasn't in a town mindset. I think the lynch on Sven was fast paced and I believe scum ARE on it. Do I know who those scum are? No, but do I believe I have an idea? Yes.

You are also forgetting that CD could have been scum who's kill got blocked instead of being the vig.

You are also not putting into the fact Oto could be SK and the vig is still alive last night and they tried shooting Oto and the kill failed because of the immunity. Has any of this crossed your mind? I don't think so.

Of course scum was on the wagon: Otolia the SK and your partner goodmorning. CD not only could have been scum who got blocked, but could also be a townie who got RB'd. The vig might not necessarily have shot on N1. Still 2 kills. Furthermore, the vig is dead. If the vig were not dead, they would have claimed by now to give us some kind of flip information. If we assume for the moment the vig targeted Otolia and got canceled, then that means the SK/Mafia killed fitz and DCL. Either kill makes sense coming from you; DCL in particular.

You are also forgetting that I could be town just going after someone I believe is scum. You flopped hardcore on your read on me and that's pretty damn close to that I did as scum a while back in another game and I was able to survive. You kept calling me town throughout the prior days and now you shift when it's in your best interest.

For the record;

I do believe GM's vote is suspect, but I don't believe he's high on my list of being scum. Please tell me where you are getting I'm 'busing' GM because you are mistaken.

Flopped hardcore on my read on you? I don't recall ever reading you as town. I said I liked one of your posts. Misrep me moar pl0x. And you're not town going after your scumread. I already said why.

Your bus on GM is nearly identical to your bus on DCL in Open 483. You mention suspicions on that person, then backburner them as you pursue the "stronger" read. It's not a traditional "bus and bus hard", but it is a bus nevertheless.

The only thing that makes me weary of a SK or even a scum Oto is how he locked himself into the VT. That's the ONLY thing that makes me think he's possibly town out of everything because scum HATE, HATE being locked into a claim. Especially, when the time is right he could fake claim and actually win.

If he is the SK, he has two kills to his name. Locking himself into the VT claim is irrelevant if one of those two kills is the dietician.

The DC kill could have also been made to focus attention on both GM or I. The same with the Fitz kill because Fitz was on my ass towards the end of Day 2. Or DC *could* have been a vig kill. Or guys what happens if all three; vig, SK & scum are alive and the kills overlapped yet again.

We aren't even sure if CD was mafia. We could have a solo mafia living amongst us.

The possibilities here are endlesss.

Indeed they are. However, it is best to assume the worst; i.e. there are still 2 mafia and 1 SK alive. If that is true, this is LyLo. Going after the SK right now loses the game in that case.

Pedit@Bulba: I don't know whether all three cannibals are still in play. I am however assuming the scum cannibals at least are. It would be foolish to assume otherwise. I also answered why the vig is no longer alive and why there were only two kills N1.

I brought up self-meta during Switch. You certainly didn't have a problem there.
I brought it up in post 66. You didn't make any glance towards it.

I have invalidated that part of your case on me.

Next step:

I don't see how going after the SK is anti-town. SK is still scum after all and is still has a wincondition opposite of town. It's still a threat to town and needs to be eliminated in order for town to win.

Moving on:

Yes, because you had prior suspicion on MeowMix who was Sven's original slot owner. Your hammer vote is opportunistic as fuck.

Let's keep going:

You believed Oto was scum Day 1 / 2 yet instead of pushing it you crept into the shadows and hammered voted Sven. Ironically, Oto, whom you felt was scum not SK was on the Sven wagon. Imo, I wouldn't have voted with someone I believed to be scum at least not someone on your high scum list. You saw a perfect way to hammer - you did it - now you are casting blame on everyone else, but yourself. I already stated that CD could have been town who got RB'd, but I was stating other scenarios.

The vig should not claim if they are still alive because they are still useful in this day of age.

I could see you killing DC in order to pin it on me.

Just keep swimming:

Alright, I was under the impression you had a town read on me. I'm sorta right, but sorta wrong. You didn't directly say "I think Mala is town", but surely implied it heavily while talking to Fery.

Spoiler:

Wall! I'll break it apart and give specific reasoning in a bit, but here's me thoughts in general.

I'd swap fitz and Mala.

Otolia I'd put in the Unsure in general category. I was until recently convinced he's scum, but I really like his more recent posts, so he gets upgraded to null.

I really need to go investigate CD, Declan. I've been tunneling on Aus/MM/Otolia.

USC's playing much differently this game than another ongoing. He's null leaning town.

Agree with your scumreads minus GM. Don't know what to think of GM right now, more investigation required.

It's in regards to this post of Fery's.

Please show me directly where I am 'busing' GM. I must be totally retarded because I'm not seeing how I'm even directly talking to him during this day period. Unless you are talking about Day 1 / Day 2. It's really irrelevant speculation unless I flip scum. You are just trying to 'puff' up your case against me with useless flip speculations before they happen.

I'll proceed:

Actually, the SK locking himself into a VT is a stupid move because he still has the chance to fake claim at a later date. Him locking himself in now puts him at a disadvantage because he could easily have himself a way out if he claimed Vig or Dietitian. More Vig over Dietitian because he still has the power to kill.

Due to this he could be town yet you don't like me saying this.

Last one:

You are right and I forgot about that. Although that doesn't make me scum in the least bit because SK is still a high priority to town to want to lynch. As it still goes against town wincond.

[Malakittens]

CD could have been mafia and you are forgetting that USC could have also been the vig.

So we are still unsure if we have 2 mafia left as opposed to 1. We also don't know if Fitz or DC could have been the SK or mafia.

You say we have to assume the worse, but you are trying to paint me scummy because I'm going after an anti-town role.

___________

My idea was that *you* possibly could have been setting me and Oto up for lynches with possible kills. I'm still leaning towards that idea.

[Malakittens]

CD could have been mafia and you are forgetting that USC could have also been the vig.

So we are still unsure if we have 2 mafia left as opposed to 1. We also don't know if Fitz or DC could have been the SK or mafia.

You say we have to assume the worse, but you are trying to paint me scummy because I'm going after an anti-town role.

___________

My idea was that *you* possibly could have been setting me and Oto up for lynches with possible kills. I'm still leaning towards that idea.

There are many scenarios. I choose to look at the worst one. If I'm wrong, great. If not, I'm prepared.

I'm painting you as scum because I cannot fathom you going after the SK when doing so might cost us the game. I don't frankly give a damn what happened in your previous games w.r.t. SK; if you kill him now, and there's two mafia left, WE LOSE. Period. Sure, if there's no mafia left we win, if there's one left we get to 4P MyLo.

Now, let me ask you this. Let's assume for a moment you're right, I am some flavor of scum, and I killed CD to make Otolia look bad and either fitz or DCL to make you look bad.

Why then, did I lurk all day yesterday?

To avoid bringing attention on yourself.

GM decided to push him; I didn't do anything. You decided to push him later after SS claimed; I hopped on for pressure.

If indeed I killed CD to make him look bad, why did I not attack?

He was already gaining suspicion plus you attacking him would look opportunistic. You needed to find a decent reason to hop onto the wagon.

Why did I hammer a possible PR and bring so much attention to myself?

You saw an easy way to get rid of a PR. You took it as you had an excuse because you had his original slot as scum which overlaps. Perfect reason to jump onto a wagon.

What was my motivation?

To get rid of a town/pr and to hope to have more die in the night.

____

Also, can you link to me a completed scum game of yours? If you have more link more.

[Malakittens]

Yeah your Day 1 scum reads were as follows; Aus, Oto, MM/SS & DC. You also turned your head a few times in others directions yet didn't follow it through.

You thought he was scum - yet you didn't push it? I could see why scum wouldn't want to push someone because they don't want the neg attention.

[Malakittens]

I'm not really liking Syr and starting to not see him as town. Bulba deff feels town. I'm on the rocks about Fery only because she's basically feels like a swing vote. Meaning I don't really like how she hasn't commented on Syr/I's exchange, but asked Oto about his reads. That feels off.

I am really on and off regarding GM. So guess he's null leaning scummy, but I wouldn't vote him at the moment because he's not really a top suspect.

I'm starting to warm up to an Oto-town. Just due to the claim being locked in and due to the gambit. He doesn't seem to be fighting it and I wouldn't think scum would give up so easily. Not sure if that makes sense.

[Malakittens]

I really don't trust Syr right now and I feel like he's likely to flip scum.

I don't like the fact he's trying to pair teams without an actual flip. It feels like he has information others don't. That scares me in a surefire way. The fact Fery is willing to totally be okay to 'blindy' follow it bothers me.

Also, the fact everyone has a scum read on GM bothers me a bit. Only because I been in some games where the majority of the players had a scum read on a certain player and that player flipped town. That's the one thing that is keeping me from wanting to vote GM.

VOTE: Syr

I do have to ask you Fery. What would be the point of scum harping on killing the SK? It draws unnecessary attention to them. Wouldn't you think they wanted to avoid it if at all possible? Also you can say scum worry about the SK, but don't you think town has the right to want to worry about it also? Especially with the lack of flips on the players (NK wise).

[Malakittens]

Syr looked pretty damn obv-town to me the first few days. Want to explain to me why you think he's not dead although people who didn't look so obv-town are dead? Doesn't matter scum/SK would still want to kill those obv-town players even though they could be threatened by each other fractions as it makes them harder to lynch in endgame.

[Malakittens]

I don't see why me being here is surprising as I was under a lot of pressure during the end of Day 2. That's a good reason for me to be kept around imo. As scum could potentially see me as an easy lynch target.

[Malakittens]

I don't see actions by Syr other then the hammer during Day 2 as really scummy. The only thing during D1/2 I see scummy by Syr was that hammer. I do feel his post against me during D3 scummy as all hell as I already pointed out in our convs together.

[Malakittens]

Lol. I'm getting tired as I'm being repetitive.

[Malakittens]

Why can't you see that the DC kill could have pointed to me or even GM? You seem so quick to say it points in that direction, but you don't take in the possibilities it could have been directed for other reasons too. Seems as if you have an ulterior motive to try and clear you and Syr yet try to paint it off on possibly GM or I.

[Malakittens]

Why can't you see that the DC kill could have pointed to me or even GM? You seem so quick to say it points in that direction, but you don't take in the possibilities it could have been directed for other reasons too. Seems as if you have an ulterior motive to try and clear you and Syr yet try to paint it off on possibly GM or I.

You've probably said why you think the kill points to you. summarize?

DC and I had a bit of a dance with each other during previous days. At the time before N2 other then Fitz he knew my meta the best. He could have been killed to try and point that out against me. Also the fact DC was slowly turning his head in my direction.

I did however correct him right before Sven was lynched. Ironically, in Syr's wall he tried using my whole busing incident from Switch (one DC brought up. Even though DC was trying to pair Sven/i) against me.

[Malakittens]

Really depends on how it's used. I have seen players go down by meta tells alone whether they were right or wrong.

[Malakittens]

So have I, but I have also taken a lot of town down as scum and even Sk down as scum based on meta tells. I have also rightfully been wrong as town about people's town meta tells taken them down thinking they were scum only to have it flip against me.

I remember once going on about a slip I thought I saw and turned out to be dead ass wrong.

[Malakittens]

There's the third option - we wind up on SK instead of scum, in which case scum will be happy to help with the lynch.

This can be easy misleading. Scum might want to 'find' the SK, but I would believe they would be fine with any lynch not on themselves.

I think you are also trying to say, but it's very indirect. That you believe GM is scum because everyone has some sort of will to want to lynch him. This makes me think GM is town off that.

When I wake up I want to compare GM's place on the wagon to both Syr and Oto's. I don't believe each are different from each other because they all had prior scum reads on Sven's slot. All three votes were oppurnist, but Syr's was the worst. Along with the fact all 3 people {Syr, Oto & Fery} were also on the Aus lynch. That makes it a higher chance 1/3 is indeed scum because they do need mislynches to win, but also the chance more could be scum.

____

I also could say that Syr's vote on GM looks survivalist even though he may have a scum read on GM, but Syr probably thinks the lynch is tied down to two people when it's not. He seems to be content on just lynching GM and not persuing his higher scum reads to try and convince others to vote.

[Malakittens]

I also could say that Syr's vote on GM looks survivalist even though he may have a scum read on GM, but Syr probably thinks the lynch is tied down to two people when it's not. He seems to be content on just lynching GM and not persuing his higher scum reads to try and convince others to vote.

We're not lynching Otolia unless you convince me he's not the SK. I went all in on you, Bulba refuses to go along and my case on you could very well be paranoia, so we're not lynching you. I'm not going for a fery lynch while both of GM/you are alive. I'm not voting Bulba. Therefore, GM.

So in the end you are protecting Fery? Yeah, okay that makes perfect sense. The only way you would lynch Fery is if one of GM /I are dead. Judging by your long post (opening D3) you have zero motivation in wanting to lynch Fery because you were convinced its GM/I as partners.

What makes YOU think that Oto is not scum? You were pretty damn convinced of it D1/2 yet now you aren't.

Everyone's trying to use PoE when we don't even know the status of flips. If we knew status of flips - hell I might *even* be okay with it, but I'm not.

What makes you think Bulba is town?

[Malakittens]

Well, I don't think there's two town votes on GM. I do not believe Syr is town.

[Malakittens]

Actually there was no 180 by me. I still believe you are town Bulba. I want to know why Syr felt you are town because I'm paranoid of him trying to buddy up to you.

I believe his vote is to save himself when he has other people to try and convince that I'm scum. I don't like how he gave us his whole huge case on me because one person disagrees other then me disagrees with it.

I never once said I had a high scum read on GM. I said I had a low one compared to the others. I don't see how I'm backtracking.

GM's vote on Sven was pretty similar to both Oto and Syr. All three were pretty damn oppurnist, but Oto/ Syr have a higher chance of flipping scum mainly because they were on the Day 1 lynch. In my experience there is normally always 1-2 on the main Day lynches.

[Malakittens]

Gave up. Not gave us. *

[Malakittens]

I understand looking for possible scum off the wagon, but we still aren't sure if scum was already killed..

I agree that sometimes applying your own scum meta on another player is a scum tell, but it's not always accurate. I have seen town do it also. It's really a null tell.

[Malakittens]

Wall! I'll break it apart and give specific reasoning in a bit, but here's me thoughts in general.

I'd swap fitz and Mala.

Otolia I'd put in the Unsure in general category. I was until recently convinced he's scum, but I really like his more recent posts, so he gets upgraded to null.

I really need to go investigate CD, Declan. I've been tunneling on Aus/MM/Otolia.

USC's playing much differently this game than another ongoing. He's null leaning town.

Agree with your scumreads minus GM. Don't know what to think of GM right now, more investigation required.

This is what bothers me about Syr.^ This is the only thing he said through his ISO besides Day 3 regarding a possible read on GM. He never did follow up or give his read on GM until Day 3 where he says GM/Mala are scum and Oto is SK.

He also pressured GM to attempt to put Oto at L-2.

So Days 1/2 he kept his reads for GM and I close to his chest and then opening Day 3 he accuses us both of being scum together.

This guys IS a problem.

[Malakittens]

You know Oto.. This whole defeatist attitude isn't helping..

[Malakittens]

Oto, I know what you think you are tryin to do is helping, but it's not. If you are town, you should 'fight' to live, but instead you are tying to lock the lynch into yourself or someone else. If you are town and both scum / SK are alive - the town is screwed.

[Malakittens]

Not sure GM how it's more of a scum gambit. If he's scum - he locked himself into a claim in which he can't get out of. That to me is the only town part of it.

___

Yeah, Syr, that's wonderful. You are way to sheepy this game and voting is all over the place and it's different then the Switch game where you were town.

[Malakittens]

@Bulba:

Is there any way I can interest you in moving to Syr?

[Malakittens]

Going to be a bit limited in posting. I have two weeks of classes with and tons of finals. I need to be there and not here.

[Malakittens]

I skimmed most of the posts.

Syr got really defensive after Oto made that case.

I also adore Oto's case, but I wish I had enough time to make one before him.

I thought I did touch up on it and posted in another post. I'll recheck to see if I forgot and try and post it while studying for my bio final. I have to run out the door - english final is today sooo.

Oto - Switch really wasn't the game I was referring to earlier in this game, but I can definitely try and explain how that game relates to it. Although, I would think you bringing it up you read through it and already know how it relates - I'm not sure why you want me to do it.

[Malakittens]

Why wouldn't scum want an easy way to take out a PR? They don't have to bother to NK the PR if they have a chance to hammer the said PR instead. I don't see why that is so difficult to accept to be brutally honest.

[Malakittens]

He wasn't there earlier. Not everyone here saw him as a 'scum read' until Oto posted his case then everyone started to look towards Syr (also includes you)

[Malakittens]

Oto: I noticed GM does caps regardless of an alignment. I can see how could throw you off. The whole 'I'm going to cap post throws me off' because I always get swayed that its more of a town thing to do rather then a scum thing - although recently that same thing screwed me along with a fail meta analysis of a certain player. (Mind Reader - Uberninja)

Ofc, I have the time to look at past games of players such as DC, but it's downpouring and I don't feel like getting wet -_-

___

Part of me believes DC was scum and not town. The only thing townish I thought was in the beginning when he read up Fery's meta, but him tunneling and being passive and disinterested made me think he was scum because he did that in the micro game.

[Malakittens]

I really, really don't like the end of Oto's post.. He makes a case to get a wagon/lynch on Syr, but doesn't want to vote? I'm wondering if you really are mafia. You are fence sitting - you want 'others' to do your dirty work.

Actually, screw it. I misread a bit because the only person you want to lynch is Syr, but you want it to deadline end. Why don't you want to hammer Oto?

(Didn't feel like deleting my post as I'm going to class - for teh last time - yay!)

[Malakittens]

I don't like post #1074. Oto doesn't want to vote Syr, Oto is waiting for Fery to vote GM... Which in returns moves a wagon off Syr and onto GM.

There is WAY TOO much fence-sitting from Oto.

So yeah; I'm good with a Syr or Oto lynch. >>

[Malakittens]

Where's the town motivation in fence-sitting for Oto?

___

Uh, you know town can lie and scum can lie. Town shouldn't lie, but they will. Scum will lie because they need too.

Really, it's your own decision in how GM's posts reads.

This also could be a reaction test to see who goes after him for writing it. >_>

[Malakittens]

Where is this I'll get a sudden 'revelation'?
Why do you want Fery to vote GM?

You're avoiding both wagons. You are pushing Syr as scum, but you are not hoping on the wagon because you might be afraid of possible backlash. You are making your vote useless.

[Malakittens]

It will. I was thinking ahead since Bulba probably wants GM lynched over Syr. So yes your vote on GM does change everything.

So the wagon moves off Syr and onto GM.

[Malakittens]

You really do sound like Mollie..

So Fery have anything to back that up or you just saying that to try and gain points with Bulba.

[Malakittens]

I was thinking who would be alive in which scenario.

I see Fery keeping you alive over any other player, but I'd assume since everyone think you are town you would have been targeted by at least one faction for the kill.

I was reading through everyone's ISO's after Syr's flip and I feel like Fery is going on information that others do not know.

For instance -

She seems to know that USC, but also DC was a mafia kill target rather then a vig or SK target.

Today it seems like she's under the impression that she knows GM was mafia and trying to use Syr's opening post against me to win some type of favor from you. (That's why I believe she's trying to win points)

[Malakittens]

What Syr forgot to include in his little scenario is that Fery could be a likely partner for GM if GM was mafia.

Fery's had GM as an unsure/scum read, but never really acted upon it until last day phrase.

[Malakittens]

I have entertained it because of the lack of him being killed multiple nights in a row which he's been a decent town read for the majority of players.

[Malakittens]

Nope. I did mention it, but it was in a run-on which my thought process regarding you.

[Malakittens]

with not which*

I see Fery keeping you alive over any other player,

but I'd assume since everyone think you are town you would have been targeted by at least one faction for the kill.

[Malakittens]

jesus christ.

I am thinking that Syryana was right about Mala.

Plus if you really want to get Techecal (I'm aware I spelt it wrong - I want to spell it like that) This doesn't really sound like you are entertaining the idea of Bulba-scum it's more of Mala-scum without mentioning Bulba at all.

[Malakittens]

Spoiler:

And syry, thats from "happily having added me to his town pile" 2 pages ago.

See, bulbazac's vote on you was a huge red flag. And your inferences about the vote do make me feel better about the possibility you are town.

I know I'm not playing to the unsubtle parts of my meta in this game, but game design affects how I play, and I get progressively irritable in games where the design shuts down big parts of how I solve the game puzzle as you put it.

I've been leaning to Cheery as the vig kill (maybe SK...maybe) and unseencamo as the scum target.

I've been leaning to Cheery as the vig kill (maybe SK...maybe) and unseencamo as the scum target.

Fery, how did you come up with this?

unseen looked town to me. That hesitance about lowering the hammer given the lynch dynamic looked confident and kind "screw you" in terms of the fallout that could have occurred at the start of day 2.

If I were vig, I might have gone after Cheery last night. Otolia's case wasn't strong, certainly not strong enough to drive a lynch, but some of Cheery's posts did bother me.

Ffer, the question you should ask if someone of the target players was dubble tapped.

How would that work, if a SK/VIG/Scum sending in kill, is killed do their action still go throu? If they do we know there was a double tap.

I have no idea whatsoever how that's handled at MS or if it's a Mod/game specific call. IME elsewhere, mods usually decide the kill order or how they will handle collisions before the game starts. In games with SKs, I've sometimes seen the SK kill go first due to the relative difficulty of an SK winning. The other order I've seen most often with multiple NKs is simply "all kills go through" so a killer can't target another killer and prevent their kill from taking place.

I was asking what you meant about me scaring you and that I'd be dead if you were an anti town role.

I'm saying that you would have been a priority kill if I weren't town. The day 1 kills were confusing as fuck. But last night, I *think* the DCL kill was meant to focus attention on you and me, since he was the L-1 vote. havingfitz, though, I dunno. I've never played with him before and I don't know if he'd be considered more likely to organize town than the other remaining town players.

well, IMO the DCL nk was meant to point attention in that direction - toward Syr and me. That's a point in Syr's favor if I'm right about why DCL was killed.

Dunno, these are the posts that seem to scream at me that she knows something everyone else doesn't know.

___

I don't see how we likely have mafia over an SK.

I still feel that DCL was mafia. Which makes me unsure if mafia have been officially destroyed, but I want to think that because I don't see Bulba's PoE he mentions in 1125 as possible. I don't think the SK is dead because if mafia did attempt to shoot the SK there would have been one kill on any night after N2.

I'm also wondering if CD was the vig and that makes sense in junction with Sven's claim + only two kills on N1.

I see only the possibility that the last scum-fraction is SK and not mafia. That's due to the kills are played if the SK was targeted the kill wouldn't have gone through on a certain night.

___

Bulba I disagreeded with your case in prior days because I have recently played with a SK-GM and the play there to that here felt different. I don't vote null reads.

You're also going on the conclusion that mafia haven't been 'eaten' up by the SK. For all we know both mafia could in fact be dead already.

She had GM as an unsure read in Day 1, closer to Day 2 she moved him into a scum read, but never acted upon it until Day 3.

[Malakittens]

Well now. That's an unusual vote in LyLo. Town wouldn't want to place a vote unless they are sure and PoE isn't something to be sure of a read.

Ugh. This feels a lot like Uber's case on me in a recent game. When he was scum and I was town. Just the confident in the vote and the PoE aspect.

Fery is town because she didn't hammer though. If she was scum she'd hammer.

[Malakittens]

Also what the hell is occam's Razor or the S Law. >.>

[Malakittens]

Also I don't see how anything I said was 'hidden' knowledge.

Her beginning post didn't sit right to me. It felt as it was trying to gain favor with you because she didn't seem to say anything about a read on you other then she said well I'm thinking Syr was right about Gm and Mala. Which was more of an out of the gate comment.

Syr's hammer didn't sit right with me along with his low activity and not pushing on his scum reads.

___

I'm still not going to vote yet because right now it would just be something that could be considered 'omgus'. >.>

[Malakittens]

This Day just started and I feel like he's trying to rush a decision and I don't like that. I already stated it feels similar to what Uberninja did to me in Mindreader Mafia during LyLo phrase.

[Malakittens]

Familiar arguement is familiar.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p4857513

[Malakittens]

ffs. I didn't slip and also these Law's are really annoying.

What else was the Syr's post right about Mala meant?

Thinking Mala's town or scum? The whole way it felt towards me felt as if she was either thinking a) I was scum or b) I was town. The way it came off to me as if she's was leaning scum on me and not town.

Vote: Bulba

Happy? I voted you now.

[Malakittens]

Okay? I think I'm allowed to considering Syr thought I WAS scum with GM? So my point still stands and it's

not

a slip.

[Malakittens]

You're trying to say it's a slip, but if you didn't jump to conclusions you might be able to see where he's not a slip, but actual thinking based on facts from reads lists and ISO's.

[Malakittens]

Well. Fail, SK just won. Congrats.

[Malakittens]

If I had a case Fery it would have been a lot more complexed.. That wasn't a case, but I was trying to figure out which of you/bulba were town and Bulba fell right into my trap ><

[Malakittens]

Whatever. Fery you need to keep a more open mind next time. >.>

Good game.

[Malakittens]

Usually when I don't vote right after someone votes me in LyLo I'm town. Usually, but you didn't seem to grab that like I wanted too yet it backfired on me >.>

[Malakittens]

Honestly, I might just stop replacing into games as it seems my major loses as scum stem from that. I seem to do a bit better then I'm already in it. >.>

[Malakittens]

Yes, it was a 1v1v1. The SK won, town&mafia lost

[Malakittens]

Yes, it was a 1v1v1. The SK won, town&mafia lost

lol you seriously guilt tripped me into thinking I'd lynched town.

I'm glad. I'm annoyed at the loss, but I'll get over it. >.>

Every sign pointed to Bulba being in a scum fraction, but you chose to hammer me instead.