Open 494: Duck Duck Goose (Game over!)

[mikeburnfire]

Sorry folks! Didn't realize game had started! I'm sure I haven't missed much, Random Vote Phase and all, but I am here.

Hirakai, in the last game we played, you usually made posts that were 1-2 sentences. Should I expect the same thing in this game?

[mikeburnfire]

The Whisker wagon rose quickly, but it was really small too. Not even half the votes necessary for lynch, by my count. The people who cried out over it are probably more suspicious than those that voted in the first place, by way of trying to hard to seem like concerned town. For what it's worth, I view Whisker's comment as unidicitative of alignment. Null.

I disagree with Irish's comment about quickhammers being useful. Lynches and discussion are useful, but a mad rush to kill somebody only helps the mafia hide among the stupid and gullible townies.

Syryana's shameful jump to Irish-wagon has been noted. As for the wagon itself, I think it may have merit. Might be worth a Day 1 lynch, I'll consider it. For now, I'll help to build up the RachMarie counter wagon. Regardless of her alignment, I think I'll have a better chance of winning if she dies.

vote: RachMarie

For the record, I think it's weird that people flipped out when Whisker had 3 votes, but now Irish has 5 votes and we're all cool with it.

[mikeburnfire]

My statements against RachMarie are simple. If RachMarie is town, then I don't think she'll be very useful at finding scum. To the contrary, she'll probably easily manipulated by the scum throughout the game and end up voting innocent townsfolk. On top of that, I have a very difficult time getting a read on her, based on her posting style. If she's scum, then day 1 scumlynch-- can't complain. I feel that this was a good opening vote, better than any OMGUS/RVS garbage at least.

But my vote is more than just a personal preference of mine. I can already tell that she's impatient to draw blood. 'Lurkers' seem to be getting under her skin, even though we're only 4 days into the game. But at the same time, most of her posts are fluff.. avatar discussion, popemobile, and setup theory? There's no meat. No scumhunting.

I still haven't decided whether or not to jump on the IrishWagon, but I want to mention that this post seems scummy to me:

Think of me as scum, vote for me. That's fine. However, I shit you not, I am not scum.

... wherein Irish speaks to Whiskers as if he knows that Whiskers is town.

[mikeburnfire]

Geez, I don't know if I should post any more. Two posts in, and apparently I'm the scummiest guy ever. I know it's been a while since I've played mafia, so maybe the definition of "tunneling" has changed. It used to mean somebody who would relentlessly and blindly pursue a lynch, not somebody who justifies their opening vote.

I had skimmed Rach's posts, and I don't think anything I said was untrue. As I've said, RachMarie is a difficult player for me to get a read on.

When I made that post about Irish having inside knowledge, I was hoping to provoke a reaction from him. His response was satisfactory. I was more surprised at Survivor's defense of him.

I don't understand why Irish said I was 50% scum, then said I was 98.83% scum after his 'reread'. I've only made two posts so far. What new evidence did you find against me that you had previously overlooked?

[mikeburnfire]

Is she flipping out? Seems like she's just being very hyperbolic-- lots of sarcasm. Although, I'm not sure what was up with those randomly bolded letters in her post. "O-P-L-S"... secret mafia code?

Whiskers, if you consider Irish to be "likely noob town", then why are you voting him? Don't you have any better leads?

[mikeburnfire]

I don't think voting somebody without explanation is going to get much of a reaction, aside from a "Why?" (which Marie gave you).

[mikeburnfire]

What was the point?

Also, why did you ignore the other, more important question I asked, Whiskers?

[mikeburnfire]

Alright, I'll lay off RachMarie for now. Between Hiraki's confirmation of her meta, and everyone else pointing out that I've made incorrect points, it's clear that I have no case. It was probably confirmation bias on my part. I'll still probably have a difficult time determining her alignment, though.

unvote: RachMarie

Tomorrow (if I have time), I will review the case on Irish and determine whether or not I support his lynch for Day 1.

-------------------------------

Whiskers, are you telling me that you are voting for Irish because he's difficult to read and also not scumhunting enough? Because that's what I think you said.

DCLXVI, you seem to be jumping for easy wagon to easy wagon. In particular, you jumped onto Irish's wagon, then jumped off and distanced yourself from it, with no commentary inbetween. Why did you go from 'lynch it with fire' to 'I'm staying away' within 24 hours? I'm placing my vote on you for now.

vote: DCLXVI

[mikeburnfire]

Speaking of inconsistency,

I don't understand why Irish said I was 50% scum, then said I was 98.83% scum after his 'reread'. I've only made two posts so far. What new evidence did you find against me that you had previously overlooked?

Still waiting for an explanation.

[mikeburnfire]

Irish at 5 votes: "I WILL NEVER BE LYNCHED"

Irish at 6 votes: "Oh shit, Imma get lynched"

(reviewing now)

[mikeburnfire]

Uh, the cop claim was quite obviously a joke. I was in the middle of analyzing Irish, and we had 16 days left before deadline. What gives?

I don't think all this "Go join a newb game, newb" dialogue is appropriate.

[mikeburnfire]

I am, but it seems pointless, since the mod could come in at any moment and end day phase.

[mikeburnfire]

Upon review I think, ultimately, I don't have a problem with Irish's lynch. The vibe I get from him is that he pushes somebody, but backs off when they push back. He seems to be trying to take the path of least resistance to get somebody lynched.

But I wouldn't have cast the lynching vote on him tonight. I don't agree with the votes from Method, Notes, or DCLXVI. I don't even think Notes is still playing.

I don't think Hiraki's joke is any more damning that Irish's... aside from the fact that it literally damned him.

[mikeburnfire]

Hiraki, yesterday you said Whiskers was dumb town. Are you going to be inconsistent as well?

I think she's onto something with the Monty vote. That opening post seems crafted to persuade us to talk about whether or not we chose to use our abilities last night.

[mikeburnfire]

Oh, wait, I get it now. You say that scum are shitty players, and that Whiskers is a shitty player, ergo Whiskers is scum.

[mikeburnfire]

Well, apparently there's some justification to Syryana's lynch, but I don't see it. Once Survivor enlightens me, I may be able to weigh in. As I said before: I don't think voting somebody without explanation is going to get much of a reaction, aside from a "Why?"

Until then, I think we collectively need to hold DLCXVI accountable for his behavior.

1) He helped build up the Irish wagon, then swiftly jumped off, then quickly back on to hammer.
2) He prematurely hammered Irish, cutting town discussion short by two weeks. This happened 25 hours after he said he would stay away from the wagon.
3) When I joined the game, I made an opening policy vote against RachMarie and was run up the flagpole. DCLXVI made a policy

LYNCH

, which is much much worse.

vote: DCLXVI

[mikeburnfire]

Actually no, it was not worse, I can't see how you could consider Rachmarie to be so detrimental to the town that she must be lynched no matter what, On the other hand, I was as lenient as I could be with TiP but it became clear that it would not be beneficial to the town to have him around in later days and potential lylo. Was his lynch too hasty, quite possibly. There are some town mislynches I regret pushing, this wasn't one of them though.

Can you explain the difference between these statements?:

If RachMarie is town, then I don't think she'll be very useful at finding scum. ... If she's scum, then day 1 scumlynch-- can't complain.

You are scum or you are a retard. You will not be missed either way.

[mikeburnfire]

One is false the other is true. I would say that is a pretty significant difference.

You see, I do not view rachmarie as someone who will be a hindrance to the town and I am extremely perplexed as to why you would come to that conclusion. However, I do/did view TiP as someone who was not being helpful to the town.

Therefor, what I did was definitely not worse than what you did because rachmarie was in no way shape or form deserving of a policy vote or lynch whereas TiP most certainly was.

Wrong. The difference is that my vote was my first post of the game, and your vote was a sudden hammer that got an innocent townie killed.

I find your reckless behavior and self-contradiction to be hindrances to the town. I voted you yesterday for being opportunistic, and you've only gotten worse.

You die today.

[mikeburnfire]

I understand Method and Survivor's votes on Syryana. Not Hiraki's, though.

Hiraki, are you voting Syryana because "scum are stupid, Syryana is stupid, therefore Syryana is scum", or are you just riding the coattails of others?

[mikeburnfire]

I understand Method and Survivor's votes on Syryana. Not Hiraki's, though.

Hiraki, are you voting Syryana because "scum are stupid, Syryana is stupid, therefore Syryana is scum", or are you just riding the coattails of others?

[mikeburnfire]

But you would have went for the [Rach] lynch if you could have, right?

Maybe. Unless I saw some really good posting from her, or somebody else seemed to be obviously scum, there would be no reason to move my vote.

Mike is still pressing the "Rach is too dumb to town" bit, which she, err, isn't?

No I'm not. I'm contrasting my opening vote to DXLXVI's hammer vote.

Not to mention pursuing 6Cat over his quickhammer.

As I said, he looked bad yesterday, even before the quickhammer. I'm honestly surprised more people are attacking Hiraki and Syryana and just giving DCLXVI a free pass.

Mike's attacks on 6Cat re:hammer aren't bad-- it's easy to see a quickhammer, any quickhammer, as scummy. It's my opinion that this wasn't, though.

It's more than a quickhammer though. It was a quickhammer he made

after

calling Irish "noob town"

-----------------------------

Hiraki

, you spent most of yesterday apologizing for not posting enough. Today you've been playing terribly and haven't been helping find scum. If you're going to play this game, then play it it. If not, then replace out and let somebody else do it.

You're probably town, given how DCLXVI jumped on your bandwagon opportunistically, and how everyone else doesn't seem to realize that bad play =/= scum play. But I won't shed a tear if you get killed for your behavior.

[mikeburnfire]

Whiskers, you talk too much. I'm not trying to discourage activity, but I can't keep following you. You've made 1/5 of all posts this game, and you've changed your vote 4 times within the last 24 hours.

Can you give me a TL;DR of who you suspect and why?

[mikeburnfire]

hint hint WHAT.

[mikeburnfire]

This town is so stupidly incompetent that I'm beginning to think that the only way to catch scum is going to be with successful vig kills.

Hiraki, you have 48 hours to make a post that isn't garbage.

[mikeburnfire]

I didn't realize that your meta was to make one good post on day 1, then spam nonsense until you got lynched. I've only played one other game with you, and you seemed much more helpful in that one.

Tell me again, what were your reasons for suspecting those players? TAM is lurky, Monty is yucky, Syryana is shitty, and no reason given for Nacho/awestfie?

Such compelling cases.

[mikeburnfire]

Fairly certain there isn't a "rule" as to when you should decide to arm yourself, and if there is, there shouldn't be one; I honestly don't see the question as "paranoia," just looks like scum trying to blend in by asking a question that town would be asking themselves, and not publicly. Why would town be so worried about arming themselves this early? There's no "paranoia" to be have here, at this point.

This is pretty bad.

This is pretty vague and lacking content.

[mikeburnfire]

So, how about that no lynch? What are some viable concerns to this strategy?

Are you going shitpost this entire game?

The irony.

Monty, No Lynch is a terrible option because lynching is the only reliable way that we have of killing scum. We shouldn't depend on vig-kills because there's no guarantee that they'll succeed, or that there's any left for that matter. Quite honestly, I feel that when you bring this up, you're just fishing for information on who has already used their nightkills.

[mikeburnfire]

I will if you put some effort into the game.

[mikeburnfire]

I'm sorry I don't spoonfeed but don't say I don't put effort into the game. I do, whether or not you are able to see it.

I'm not the only one who thinks you're not putting any effort into this game.

But the real dessert is Hiraki. He's had one real catch-up post that was saying pretty much nothing, accomplished nothing, white-knighted the hell out of the TiP wagon without making any attempt to start a counterwagon (notice the lack of a vote for all day 1). Today, he starts out by voting a townread and only votes his "top scumread" when a wagon is established. He's scum-coasting hard.

Sorry dude that does not fly... I know you are capable of better than this...

Will you show [effort] to us, after the game is over?

he doesn't look to be putting in much effort.

So that's 5 players who think you're playing terribly.... 6 if we include DCLXVI. I called you town *once*, but it won't stop me from voting you if you won't play.

Just so you know, I've given up on my ISO's because Goddamn it, I have enough real life stress.

Why are DLC and Whiskers town?

What do you think about the current wagon on Hiraki?

What do you think of Monty proposing we forfeit the lynch?

What is your opinion of RachMarie?

[mikeburnfire]

Did you just confuse Rach and Syryana?

[mikeburnfire]

Also,

Whiskers, [...]

Can you give me a TL;DR of who you suspect and why?

[mikeburnfire]

...while continuing to passively support the suspicions towards IP. Who on looking ahead to the D1 lynch…I note mbf was conspicuously off that mislynch. FoS mbf.

I'm not sure what "passive support" you're talking about. I promised to do a full review of Irish, but DCLXVI quick-hammered before I was done.

@mbf…you didn’t have a problem with Syr’s vote on IP?

I did, I just forgot to mention it a second time.

[mikeburnfire]

I feel like a lot of people are ignoring posts I made directly to them.

[mikeburnfire]

I am. Let me tell you exactly: I 100% am ignoring it. I'm avoiding giving reads because I don't have good reasons behind them and I don't want to take the time to readthrough again. What you would see is

X: town. good posts.
Y: scum. gut.
Z: scum. OMGUS.
err, uh, who else is playing?

Oh great. Another player who doesn't want to play. Do I have to harass you until you quit as well?

Let's just start off with something simple then. Who are your top three scumreads and why? Is there anybody who seems exceptionally townie to you?

[mikeburnfire]

Yes, I wonder why Syryana isn't posting as well. Fitz, do you any idea why?

[mikeburnfire]

I made two mentions with links of you insinuating suspicions towards IP without actually doing anything. The post 163 link and a few lines above it where I mentioned you reprimanding Syr for voting IP. My comments stand.

I'll admit that 163 looks worse now that we know Irish was town, but Syry's vote was opportunistic and cowardly, hiding behind Method. My reprimand is still valid.

Still hard supporting a no-lynch. We have the capability to kill scum in this setup without lynching anyone and simultaneously getting better reads for tomorrow.

We're not going to no-lynch today. You can either be a part of today's lynch and start scumhunting, or continue to abstain and get lynched yourself.

[mikeburnfire]

vote: Whiskers

Answer my question.

Who do you think is scum and why?

---------------------------------

Monty.

Same question. Since you haven't said anything yet, who do you think is scum and why?

[mikeburnfire]

Just to let you know how I will be operating. I'm going to be using my scum/Town point substitute system, and I will be analysing the first 100 hundred posts at a time before having a short break, and then continuing. Currently analysing the first parts of the game, although you must bear in mind that I have hindsight bias of TIP and havingfits's flip, so it might be a little difficult to fairly judge them on that.

Fitz is still alive; it's Notes that died.

[mikeburnfire]

Ooh, but your system is nice, feg. Love the arbitrary placing of "points" based on how much you agree with the actions taken in the posts in question.

Are you seriously criticizing Feng?

You, the person who has done

nothing

in terms of scumhunting?

unvote Wiskers

,

vote: Monty

Don't think I'm giving you a free pass, Whiskers. You still haven't given me an answer to my question.

[mikeburnfire]

To be perfectly honest, I saw Hiraki as more town than anything else. Feng has done nothing but begin to change that belief.

How. How how how.

Hiraki did nothing. NOTHING.

Feng is scumhunting.

How is it even possible that Hiraki would be town but Feng is scum.

Also, if you "saw Hiraki as town", then

why didn't you say so?

[mikeburnfire]

I can't spend the rest of the day trying to encourage other players to talk. Whiskers, Monty, and Method need to start doing actual scum-hunting, or town is screwed.

DCLXVI is the scummiest and most opportunistic, and most likely to be scum. He hammered town-Irish, joined Syryana's wagon when it was at 4/6 votes, and now he's on the easy Hiraki/Feng's wagon.

unvote, vote DCLXVI

Kill him.

[mikeburnfire]

he's on the easy Hiraki/Feng's wagon.

Do you think they are town? Because personally, I think you were just wowed by a bunch of bullshit.

Doesn't change what I said. If DCLXVI is scum, then it's highly likely that they are indeed town.

And Feng's "bullshit" pbp is still more of a contribution to this game than Method, Monty, and Hiraki combined. So I'm willing to give him a pass for now.

[mikeburnfire]

if you think so little of Monty (and I can see why he really has not contributed much) then why you no vote him ? Do you think he is not scummy enough? Or is it that you think other dude is scummier? or that monty is town and being a lazy butt and kinda a VI? Please do let us in to how your mind works thanks

Is this directed at me?

[mikeburnfire]

if you think so little of Monty (and I can see why he really has not contributed much) then why you no vote him ? Do you think he is not scummy enough?

I did vote him. I don't approve of how little he has contributed, and I don't like what little I've seen. I only switched to DCLXVI because it's getting closer to deadline, and I'd prefer his lynch over Feng's.

I've had a town read on DCL (which is unusual for me) and the votes he has received recently (all from players I suspect) only increases my town view towards DCL and my suspicion of those on his wagon.

It sounds like you have a history with DCL. Can you clue us in to his meta? Is he normally terrible when he's a townie?

And Feng's "bullshit" pbp is still more of a contribution to this game than Method, Monty, and Hiraki combined. So I'm willing to give him a pass for now.

That's very true, but I'm going to lynch scum whether they decide to contribute or not.

Fair enough, but Feng is really putting himself out there if he's scum. Would have been easier to coast.

[mikeburnfire]

@ Nacho
You're just mad that you're currently at net +4 scumpoints.

[mikeburnfire]

Then why would you have a town read on DCL, who has done nothing except hurt the town?

[mikeburnfire]

Your vote currently sits alone on a wagon that will not rally enough support for a lynch today.

[mikeburnfire]

I got poked. Not much new to say, though.

I still prefer a DCLXVI lynch. Apparently there are more than a few players willing to lynch Monty, and I'm okay with that. Still want Whiskers to tell me who he suspects.

[mikeburnfire]

You need to work on your acting.

[mikeburnfire]

Or, more likely, she's trying to pretend to be a townie.

Maybe if she would pretend to scumhunt I might believe her.

[mikeburnfire]

=Yawn=

Hurry up and mislynch Fenglien already.

[mikeburnfire]

What's your read on Rach?

Null.

I have a townread on ##Cat and don't see a case on him.

You've got to be kidding me.

Also scumreads on Mike & Acting-- all independently, no associative tells.

Are you serious? You blatantly ignore my questions to you, and then call

ME

scum?

I'm fine with killing any of {DCLXVI, Monty, Whiskers}. I'm more confident about DCLXVI than Monty, though. Seriously.

@Nacho, Method, Rach:
None of you three have given an opinion about DCLXVI or Monty. Please do.

@Method:
Please play game kthxbye

[mikeburnfire]

Whiskers, Monty, and Method

So these three are town and town's best hope?

I'm fine with killing any of {DCLXVI,

Monty, Whiskers

}

I guess not?

---

Sorry, I don't follow. What are you asking me?

MBF, your reads as you have stated them have completely switched, which is understandable as a full 100 posts of material have been presented since you posted them. With that said, could you enlighten us as to how you got your current town and scum reads?

I don't believe I've changed much at all.

Foremost is DCLXVI, whose wagon I've been trying to rally all day. I don't like his wagon-hopping+speedhammer opportunism Day 1. Today he began by opportunistically voting Hiraki . Furthermore, I feel his vote for Monty is (surprise surprise) opportunistic. He's just repeating arguments that were made earlier, only louder.

Secondly, you [Monty] have not been scumhunting at all this game, and you even openly admit it:

"I wasn't very active at all in pushing for anyone, town or scum." (616)

Aside from DCLXVI (the case against whom had been long-standing), you have not expressed a desire to find scum. You've also been wasting a lot of time advocating that we throw away our lynch.

Thirdly is Whiskers. She posts like crazy, but like you she doesn't try to scumhunt:

"I'm avoiding giving reads because I don't have good reasons behind them and I don't want to take the time to readthrough again." (455)

. If you look are her post history, a lot of what she says is just random interruptions. Most recently, Fitz has asked me a question, and Whiskers answered. Then Feng asked DCLXVI a question, and Whiskers answered. Yet, when I directly asked her who she suspected, she outright ignored me.

I have a null or town read on everybody else. Fitz and Method are 'leaning scum', but nothing stands out to me yet.

[mikeburnfire]

Do you think Monty and DCL are scum together?

No, I find that to be a very unlikely scenario.

I took mbf's Post 519 comments? to imply that he thought town was in trouble if those 3 players didn't start doing some scumhunting (i.e. exactly what he said) and therefore he must have thought those players were town (because why would scum not scumhunting screw town?). When I noticed 4-5 pages later that he was fine with killing 2 of the 3 people he mentioned in Post 519 I thought it was a contradiction.

You thought wrong.

[mikeburnfire]

All three of them can't be scum. Or rather, if they are, then I'm not too worried.

The main problem would be if we get to LyLo with three players who have barely said anything, and we have little to determine who is town or scum among them.

I suppose we can disregard that scenario, since Monty's about to be killed.

[mikeburnfire]

Whiskers, you are full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

[mikeburnfire]

I don't begrudge Monty for trying to discuss the ramifications of a No-Lynch, especially given that he's fairly new.

It's the lack of any scumhunting that really hurts us. And yes, the way he remained quiet during Hiraki debacle also counts against him.

My biggest problem with this wagon is that it's a distraction from DCLXVI. I can feel in my gut that he's scum, and I can't see him being partnered with Monty.

---------------------

If I have my votecount correct, there's currently 3 wagons at 3 votes, and Fitz's lone vote on Whiskers. Looks like you're about to get your wish for a No-Lynch, Monty.

[mikeburnfire]

Mike, please give me a reason why we shouldn't lynch Feng today (correction, give me a case on why DCL is a much better lynch than Feng.)

I'm not going to repeat my case a third time, especially not for somebody who's been coasting the whole game. Go look back at my posts.

Is Feng town? Maybe. Regardless of whether or not you enjoy his points system, he's shown a desire to scumhunt. That alone makes him better than Monty, Method, and Whiskers combined. His wagon is currently inhabited by Nacho, Rach, and Method, none of whom has presented a worthwhile case against him. The most I got from that is along the lines of 'his points system sucks', which is a garbage reason.

The only reason I have to even consider a Feng lynch is that his points system was setup in a way where he could give some opinions and wait to receive some feedback, which could let him feel out where the easy lynches are. That's kinda scummy. But he's actually scumhunting, and his wagon is crap, so don't expect me to hop on anytime soon.

[mikeburnfire]

All I see is an attempt to rush a lynch on a lurker, and desperate self-preservation. Of all the reasons to want to lynch TAM, you picked

"he said 'several... kind-of', but he only had one!"

Monty's wagon looses momentum, so you jump off, then you repeat the preexisting case against him and promise to hop back on soon. Sounds like scum play to me.

[mikeburnfire]

If I was interested in self preservation my vote would have stayed on feg.

At that time Feng had a large bandwagon from Nacho, Rach, Method, and you. Furthermore, Fitz, Survivor, Whiskers had just stated an intent to join. Your jump off was strategic.

[mikeburnfire]

I agree with that, but I don't think it's a strong tell.

[mikeburnfire]

You do realize that pretty much a lot of our cases are probably based around the fact that we think Hikari was scum?

And that Feng's attempts at scum hunting are an attempt to try and change that that turned out looking scummy?

So, TAM... why was Hikari scum? Because you never actually said why.

[mikeburnfire]

I refuse to lynch DCL, ever. I think his TAM push is town as fuck.

Wow, that's a very different opinion from your post two days ago:

Monty is town, DCL is scum.

Did you forget that you 'suspected' DCLXVI, or are you so gullible that DCLXVI's go-nowhere wagon on Method completely changed your opinion of him?

[mikeburnfire]

What has DCLXVI done all game? He helped build up the Irish wagon, then swiftly jumped off, then quickly back on to hammer. The hammer was sudden and happened after he said he would stay away from the wagon. He later called it a policy lynch, as if that made it better. Day 2 he joined Syryana's wagon when it was at 4/6 votes, and then placed the third vote on the Hiraki/Feng wagon. Once that wagon seemed inevitable, he jumped off onto Monty's wagon. Once THAT wagon lost momentum and it looks like the only options are him and Feng, he tries to spur a lurker lynching on some seriously lackluster reasoning.

confirm vote: DCLXVI

If anybody else wants to win the game, you can join me, but I have a feeling that we're going to miss the deadline anyway. If you're going to vote TAM, then do it. Otherwise, stop spreading out across four different wagons.

[mikeburnfire]

Wait so why am I being lynched?

Lurking?

Fail potatos... Seriously...

I'm PGO... Good luck catching scum.

Don't lurk so much next time.

Seriously.

unvote DCLXVISCUM, vote TAM

for good measure.

[mikeburnfire]

You mean the quick-lynch on a lurker that you led in an effort to avoid your own lynch?

This may surprise you, but I'm not a big fan.

[mikeburnfire]

I'm totally not trying to avoid my lynch, but if I *am* trying to avoid my lynch it's totally fine because it's not a scumtell. Look at how not-scum I am for not hammering what seemed to be an inevitable lynch!

I honestly don't think you were trying to get TAM lynched. There was only 24 hours left and your reasons for voting him were garbage. You probably expected to fall back on it near deadline, earning extra townie points when Feng flipped town (since I don't think it's possible for you to both be scum).

[mikeburnfire]

FINE. Whatever.

If by some miracle we've hit scum, then I'll lay off you since I find this to be an unlikely bus.

[mikeburnfire]

Because you've already pointed out that you could have lynched Feng. If you were desperate, then you would have hammered him.

We can dispute about whether or not self-preservation is scummy or not, but it's irrelevant since that's not what happened.

[mikeburnfire]

Vote: No lynch

[mikeburnfire]

Hoping we can catch scum with a PGO at this point is highly unlikely. I'm sure most of us have already used our ability.

It's better to go to LyLo if possible.

[mikeburnfire]

Therefor, the only way to make the remaining pgo shots have value is to lynch today and if there is a mislynch everyone ought to use their pgo ability. If scum don't kill we get another day and if they hit an active pgo we get another day.

A fair point, but we really shouldn't hedge our bets on a successful PGO kill or scum being afraid to kill. If we want to win, we need a scum lynch.

unvote

[mikeburnfire]

This game is going to be a monster to review. I don't trust any of you, except maybe Survivor, and even for him I don't have any evidence that he's town, just a gut feeling.

The lynch results that we have aren't very helpful, since the Irish wagon was stupid and the Method wagon was a rushed mess. Even the nightkills aren't very helpful. Notes/Morning tells us nothing. Rach may have been killed because she suspected Feng, or because she was an easy target.

[mikeburnfire]

@MBF why did you vote TAM at the end of the previous day?

Just in case one of the other votes wasn't formatted correctly.

[mikeburnfire]

Also...I'm not sure I wouldn't rather try to hit scum on TAM's wagon. With as fast as his wagon developed I would be shocked if 2-3 scum weren't on it.

I agree. DCLXVI and Feng were on the chopping block, and that TAM wagon shot up quickly. If all three were town, then there would have been some ambivalence there. Even still, I doubt ALL three of them jumped onto the speed-lurker-lynch wagon. There's probably 2 among {DCLXVI, Nachomamma8, Fegelein, MontyWhittaker, Lastsurvivor} and one among {havingfitz, whiskers}.

Obviously, I don't trust DCLXVI at all, but if he is town and Feng is scum, then that would explain why the quick-TAM lynch. Either way, I don't see them being scum together. So, I'd say that there's 2 among {[DCLXVI or Feng], Nacho, Monty, Survivor} and one in {fitz/whiskers}.

[mikeburnfire]

Rach may have been killed because she suspected Feng, or because she was an easy target.

So, Feng is town and you are trying to frame him?

Read the whole sentence.

[mikeburnfire]

The Irish wagon was stupid because in the end he was killed because he made a joke. The TAM lynch was just terrible. It gave us no real information as opposed to a Monty, Feng, or DCL flip, but it was marginally more preferable to a lynch forfeit, which is as far as my 'support' of it goes. That, and lurkers deserve death.

I honestly can't believe that DCLXVI is coasting so easily, and I'm the only one calling him out on his actions while other consider him nigh-confirmed town.

What has he done to help the town?

But back to the question that you've ignored for the last 20 pages: Whiskers, who do you think is town, and who do you think is scum? In particular, I want to hear what you think about Monty, Survivor and Fitz.

[mikeburnfire]

In addition: if you consider Feng to be scum, then how do you see DCLXVI's actions yesterday as being town? He diverted an impending Feng lynch and spearheaded the TAM-town lynch.

[mikeburnfire]

The only reason MBF doesn't like the irish lynch now is because he is trying to use it to push my lynch.

I

never

liked your part in that lynch.

DCLXVI, Monty, Whiskers.

I want to point out that none of these have died. Besides dancing around me a little bit during the game-- buddying?-- I like to think I'm damn good enough, or at least enough of a wildcard, that I'd die. Yeah, mafia may be playing their shot safe-- the replaced lurker Notes, for example? But DCX is also

clearly

town, with enough townreads on him to make him a threat. Why aren't they dead? Their town flips would incriminate MBF.

I've got an alternate explanation. Monty wasn't killed because he was actively lurking. DCLXVI wasn't killed because he was scum. You weren't killed because you're gullible and not a threat. Or maybe you're scum too.

[mikeburnfire]

Survivor feels town to me, especially this lone crusade against Nacho.

I'll have to examine Nacho and Fitz next. They both blended into the background for me this game.

[mikeburnfire]

I appreciate you answering my first question, Whiskers. What about this one?

In addition: if you consider Feng to be scum, then how do you see DCLXVI's actions yesterday as being town? He diverted an impending Feng lynch and spearheaded the TAM-town lynch.

[mikeburnfire]

I had to study those two posts for a while to figure out where the inconsistency was, but you're absolutely right. I've been arguing that Feng and DCLXVI cannot both be scum, and I just asserted that they are.

I may have a small amount of confirmation bias.

[mikeburnfire]

There's no inconsistency there. He *did* spearhead it to divert it away from a Feng lynch, by his own admission. And he *did* say that he didn't think it would work.

I suppose I worded it wrongly. I didn't think he was trying to lynch TAM

because he thought TAM was scum

, but rather so he would avoid being on the Feng wagon.

[mikeburnfire]

Seeing as how Feng and I are the only ones willing to vote DCLXVI, I'm not going to pursue his lynch today-- No sense in wasting my breath anymore. I seriously do not see why he's so innocent in other players' eyes. That being said, I really,

really

don't like how Whiskers just took him and herself off the table entirely today. When I see her post 839, I don't see our odds going from 3:8 to 3:5, but rather to 2:5 or 1:5.

I've been reading what people have said about Nacho and quite honestly I don't agree.

Nacho is definitely scum. I'm getting hammered, so I'm just calling it. Nacho is painfully obviously scum, with his "I'm arming tonight" which is worse than what Whiskers did D1, his poor little push on me simply for a minor fault with my scumhunting system, hanging back and asking questions instead of directly scumhunting (backseat play, which is very scummy) and generally trying too hard to look pro-town. I strongly urge you to push him hard once I flip.

I agree that his "I'm arming tonight!" seems like a scumtell, but it's also pretty weak. Certainly there are better reasons to lynch somebody at this point in the game. Also, there may be some OMGUS sentimentality hidden here. Feng also said that Nacho was bussing TAM, and we know now that that's incorrect.

Of the people on the TAM wagon my top suspects would be Monty, Fegelein and Nacho. Nacho is either still here because he is scum or because he's completely off the mark.

I don't necessarily believe all 3 scum were on the TAM lynch but fmpov..of the two off it...it's a toss up between Whiskers and mbf.

I'm leaning towards Nacho for the above reason and being on both bad lynches.

It's possible that Nacho's grandstanding actually scared the scum away from him, or perhaps they felt that Rach was a bigger threat or easier target. I don't think "Nacho is still alive-- that's scummy" is a very good argument. And being on bad lynches = scum? That's newb-town logic. Sorry, but no.

Nacho,
[...]
1) Immediately after your TAM vote you ask Feg a question in #737 about where he was posting. I.e., after your TAM vote, you were still pursuing your case on Feg despite the fact that you just essentially dismantled the wagon on him. And the fact that your

2) reasoning for Feg-town is weak and ill-presented also gives me the willies. In #739, you say the Feg looked "sort of town." So, you were switching wagons pre-DL for someone who only looked sort of town? And, as if you immediately realized why that looked bad, you corrected it in #740 to say that he actually looks "REALLY" town. And I think the fact that your read took a complete 180 just because he attacked you is wicked scummy, given the amount of time you've spent pursuing both Hiraki and Feg (basically ever since TIP got lynched).

[...]

Alternatively, Rach could have been killed by Nacho because she kept on explaining his scum meta. #733 was one of these posts.

Interestingly enough, after Rach made that post saying that Nacho buses his partners, Nacho hopped off of the Feng wagon and voted TAM in #736.

This

is what a good argument looks like. Survivor is the only one making a well-reasoned argument, but it's a strong one.

This is just my opinion of the Nacho-wagon, though. My opinion of Nacho himself might change after I do a thorough review.

[mikeburnfire]

Respectfully, I disagree.

And now that I think about it, if both Feg and TAM are town, then there would be no reason for scum to quick-jump to TAM. With deadline looming, scum can just sit back while town scrambles to avoid no-lynch. It's entirely possible for both you and Whiskers to be scum, with the TAM wagon almost entirely town.

For reference, RachMarie and DCLXVI were also on both lynches. By your logic, DCLXVI is scum because he's still alive and been on both town-lynches, yes?

[mikeburnfire]

first highlight...what do you mean if both Feg and TAM are town? I assume you did not mean to put TAM there as TAM is dead and yes...is in fact town. So who did you mean to be there?

I am proposing a scenario in which Feng and TAM are both town. It's a highly possible situation since TAM is confirmed town. Feng is the only variable.

Re: second highlight...Rach being on both lynches means nothing because she is dead. Why bring her up? And you haven't asked for my logic wrt Nacho still being alive so you trying to apply it to DCL is pointless.

My point

is that your terrible logic of "Nacho is still alive and was on both lynches, so he's scum" can also be applied to DCLXVI, and apparently the only reason you don't think so is because you're

assuming

that scum see Nacho as a threat because he's a good player and not DCLXVI. You're making assumptions about who the mafia fear (even though they probably fear PGO kills more than any single person), and RachMarie is proof that being on townlynches doesn't make you scum. If that's all the evidence you have against Nacho, then your case sucks.

However, upon review it appears that I've overlooked your post #836, and that post actually might have some good points.

Nacho...shortly before Post 689 yesterday, you say or infer that DCL is scum (Posts 623, 626 & 645) but then he suddenly becomes "town as fuck" for his push on TAM. Who a fail to find any mention of you suspecting prior to this point. So why would someone you suspect suddenly be town for pushing a case on someone you had previously expressed no suspicions towards (that I can see at least).

So why did you vote TAM and how could you say he is probably your 2nd or 3rd suspect yesterday (giving the lack of attention you paid him otherwise)?

I need to see Nacho's response to this before I comment.

Also, MBF's VCA thing about me being scum for being on both lynches is stupid. I would say that I end up on most of the lynches in all my games. In fact, the last time someone tried to get me lynched in lylo for being on all the lynches that person was scum.

It's not 'my thing', it's Fitz's. I'm actually agreeing with you on this point. From my experience, scum like to avoid lynches.

[mikeburnfire]

@DCL..."why not?"  Are you actually questioning me on NOT finding you suspect (atm?)?  What do our other games have to do with anything?  Are you saying that any game you are town in I should automatically think you are scum?  I don't even know how to respond to this question. 

How about this...tell me all the reasons why I SHOULD suspect you and I will reconsider my position. 

I don't like this. DCLXVI is asking why you think he's town, and you're not giving a reason. The logical conclusion is that you don't have a reason and that you're buddying up to him.

@mbf...ok, I see what you are getting at with "if both Feng and TAM were town"...so are you insinuating Feng is scum?  Because I still suspect Feng as well.  If anything I think the quickwagon on TAM reflects poorly on Feng. 

No, not really. I agree that the speed of TAM's wagon hurts Feng, but I still feel that only one of {DCLXVI, Feng} can be scum, and Feng being scum means that DCLXVI is town. I think either DCLXVI is scum and Feng is town, or neither of them are scum which makes you and Whiskers look worse.

And even if they were both town...that doesn't mean scum didn't support TAM's wagon.  As I said...as quickly as that mislynch  developed I seriously doubt there are not 1-2 scum on it. 
Which based on your comments earlier today would seem to indicate you agree with me so WTF are you debating with me about???? 

Scum being on TAM's wagon makes more sense if Feng is scum. If they're both town, then it's highly likely that at least one of {you, Whiskers} is scum, if not both.

And yes...scum like to avoid wagons when possible but they rarely (all) do.  IMO odds favor there being scum on both mislynches.

I think it's entirely possible that RachMarie, DCLXVI, and Nacho are all town. Not sure how likely it is, though. Regardless, Nacho being on both lynches isn't a scumtell in my book.

Which...despite the fact you thought the mislynches were stupid and terrible...you still supported them both (and failed to comment on when I [among others] pointed it out).

How many times do I have to repeat myself before you hear me, then?

I thought it was possible for Irish to be scum, but I didn't like his wagon and hated the hammer. I thought it was possible for TAM to be scum, but was highly against his lynch, pushing very strongly for a DCLXVI lynch instead. I even called it a rushed lurker lynch. My superfluous post-lynch vote was only to ensure we did not forfeit our lynch.

Just telling us who you

think

is most dangerous to scum... lol. How do you know? Unless you know who the scum are, or are, in fact, scum, how could you know who is threatening them or threatening

to

them? I just, you know, read it as a scumslip from you.

THIS is what I've been trying to say. I don't like how you (Fitz) are telling us what the scum were thinking.

[mikeburnfire]

I also had a null~town read on Fegelein. That hasn't changed much.

I thought DCLXVI, Monty, and Whiskers were scummy and Rach and Nacho were null, along with Fitz and Method who were mostly null, but gave me some scummy vibes.

Scum actually did me a favor by killing Rach. I've played with her before and I've never been able to read her.

[mikeburnfire]

So basically you thought that all but two players were on the scummy side null.

That hasn't changed much, either.

This game is going to be a monster to review. I don't trust any of you, except maybe Survivor, and even for him I don't have any evidence that he's town, just a gut feeling.

[mikeburnfire]

But what if Monty and Feg were both town. Scum had nothing to lose with pushing for the TAM lynch either because at worst it would simply set up FEG as the last mislynch.

[...]

vote:feg

Goddammit.

I'm going to bed.

[mikeburnfire]

What is wrong

is that I'm getting sick of you leading town to a mislynch. Your logic of "Nobody's trying to lynch Feng, therefore we should lynch Feng" is almost as bad as Fitz's "Nacho hasn't been killed, therefore we should kill Nacho"

I have two townreads: Fegelein and Survivor. There's no reason I

should

trust anybody else yet.

[mikeburnfire]

Fegelein is my weaker town-read. While nothing he did seemed explicitly 'town' to me, the behavior of other players makes me think better of him. I didn't like the criticisms of his scumlist, and I didn't like the wagon that formed on him. I hated the argument that "Feng is scum because Hiraki was scum" because Hiraki never

did

anything. Most recently, I don't like your 180 on him. Yesterday you expressed a strong belief that he was town, even so much as to forfeit hammering him to spur a lynch on a lurker instead. Today he's the first person you vote, your reasoning being that 'nobody has tried to get him lynched yet today', which is weak and shouldn't be the kind of argument used as the sole reasoning for a vote in MYLO.

Here's the logic you and Fitz are presenting:
"That wagon on TAM was fast, so it was certainly scum-driven! They were desperate to divert the attention from Feng!"
With this logic, you vote Feng and Fitz votes Nacho.

Here's my logic:
"That wagon was fast because we were hours from a deadline. If TAM and Feng were both town, then it really doesn't matter which wagon the scum were on, and they were probably the ones who dragged their feet or showed indifference between the two.

Among those that showed ambivalence: {Nacho,

Rach

, Survivor, Fitz} It's highly likely that at least one of {Nacho, Fitz} is scum, or even both if Fitz is bussing right now.

If you cross-check this with those who were off the TAM wagon yesterday (since I don't think all three scum were on it), I find {myself, Whiskers, Fitz}

Fitz is the common factor in both these groups.

vote: Fitz

[mikeburnfire]

MBF how do you feel about Nacho (himself, not the wagon)?

Nothing he has done has stood out to me, neither as scum nor as town. He has blended into the background the whole game for me.

BRB, doing an ISO.

[mikeburnfire]

Nacho's part in the Irish lynch doesn't seem particularly bad. The vote was explained, and towards the end it seems like Nacho was putting effort into coercing information out of Irish. I also like his part in the Hiraki(Feng) wagon. He was the first one on it, and he justifies his vote well. By contrast, DCLXVI was third on that wagon, and he does not justify his vote at all. Whisker's part in that wagon is pretty bad too (she later says that it was mostly OMGUS).

Feng replaces in and starts to makes his long PBPA. Rach maintains her vote, mentioning an earlier game where scum apparently did the same thing. DCLXVI maintains his vote too, but does not give a reason. Monty sheeps in too. Whiskers expresses distate, but does not revote yet, even saying that he 'gets a pass' until he does something scummy. Monty says that Hiraki seemed town, but Feng changed that belief (This is still probably the worst post Monty has made so far, and if Feng is town, then Monty looks much worse). Nacho doesn't unvote, but seems to take exception that I don't like the Feng wagon. Fitz joins in and expresses strong suspicion of Feng, but stays away from the wagon, prefering to stay on Monty and promises a Feng vote later.

DCLXVI unvotes Feng, stating that his vote was mostly based on Hiraki's behavior and that Feng is playing similar to his town-meta. Nacho defends Monty in a logical manner.

Nacho's statement, "I refuse to lynch DCL, ever. I think his TAM push is town as fuck." confused me. Nacho was voting Feng, so obviously he thought he was scum. The way DCLXVI suddenly refused to hammer Feng

should

have set off alarms. But when I called him on it, he had a pretty convincing explanation. I don't agree with it, but I understand where he's coming from. The following line: "I feel fine in calling him[DCL] town. It also makes me feel more confident about Fegelein" doesn't make any sense to me. Why would DCLXVI's behavior worsen his read of Fegelein?

Now the bigger questions remains: Should I switch to Nacho? He's sort of locked himself down to defending a select few, which makes me think he's likely scum, either defending buddies or buddying.

Why are you asking a person who was your strongest scumread actually 10 minutes ago whether you should switch or not?

This is actually a REALLY good point. Feng's response to it was vastly inadequate.

Fegelein finally showing up and deciding to attack me of all people reads sort of town.

Uh, what?

And by sort of town, I mean REALLY town. He knows he won't get me lynched. If he would flip scum, he knows that his attack on me won't serve him anything. So why would he do it?

I honestly do not see how Fegelein cursing your name as he goes down in flames makes him look town.

I like Survivor's post 824 that asserts that Rach could have been killed because she was explaining Nacho meta. However, that logic only works if Feng is scum, and completely falls apart if Feng is town.

Overall, Nacho has made some confusing statements, but I see his overall behavior as being pro-town. I definitely can't see Nacho making that one statement

(I refuse to lynch DCL, ever)

if they're both scum, and I need him to better explain why he completely 180'd on Feng.

[mikeburnfire]

Yeah, you're right. I'd never make a claim like that unless I really felt it could be possible, and it's the best explanation for Rach's death that I can come up with.

If there's a Feng-Nacho scumteam, then they've been bussing the hell out of each other all game, which would make Nacho's change-of-heart when Feng is about to be lynched seem out of place. He starts the wagon, encourages it, pushes it to the edge, but backs off when it seems inevitable?

I don't think they're scum together.

[mikeburnfire]

If there's a Feng-Nacho scumteam, then they've been bussing the hell out of each other all game, which would make Nacho's change-of-heart when Feng is about to be lynched seem out of place. He starts the wagon, encourages it, pushes it to the edge, but backs off when it seems inevitable?

I don't think they're scum together.

I think he backed off because Rach said this:

you clearly dont know Nacho well. When he is scum and busses he does it really hard and fast. None of this halfway stuffs...

I guess that makes sense. A Feng-Nacho scumteam would explain why Fegelein tried to throw suspicion onto Nacho as he died-- it would cause us to think Nacho is town. Still, I don't see scumNacho hopping off the Fengwagon when it's so close to a lynch, even with Rach talking about his meta. If Feng was lynched (as it was likely to be) and flips scum, then Nacho looks 1000x worse for pushing so hard then backing off at the last minute.

That said, I think Nacho is scum regardless of Feg's alignment.

Survivor, why do you think Nacho is scum? Because all the reasons you give seem to either revolve around Nacho bussing Feng, or Nacho scummily attacking Feng, and sometimes you seem to contradict yourself.

What do you think about Fitz? Specifically the part where he votes Nacho because he thinks Feng is scum.

[mikeburnfire]

(Because he's dead)

[mikeburnfire]

So you're basing your logic on an "if"? What "if" TAM and Feng WEREN'T both town?

...said the person voting Nacho because he thinks Feng is scum.

And how was I ambivalent yesterday?

Less ambivalent than others who explicitly didn't care who was lynched between the two, but you begrudgingly voted Feng, and didn't comment on TAM until he was lynched.

[mikeburnfire]

You didn't answer my question and show me where I base my vote on Nacho on Feng being scum.

As I remember it, your logic was that TAM's wagon shot up as an alternative to Feng's wagon, which made Feng scum. Therefore, two~three scum are on the wagon. There was also the argument that Nacho was scum because he's still alive even though he would be seen as a threat, and the argument that he's scum because he's been on both mislynches (and those two arguments contradict each other). The only other argument is that his 180 on Feng seemed scummy. Is that your main reason for suspecting him?

And yes,

I know what the word ambivalent means

. It applies to others in that grouping more than you, but I included you because you didn't express strong feelings about the lynch of Feng nor TAM. You didn't give a read on TAM, and you had expressed some minimal suspicion of Feng. So yeah,

ambivalent

P-edit: I looked it up. Apparently I don't know what ambivalent means. The word I was looking for is "indifferent"

[mikeburnfire]

Monty still looked fine

Monty hasn't done shit.

Where is he anyway?

[mikeburnfire]

I'm just not willing to make the jump that [being on both mislynches] = [more likely to be scum], and if Nacho *is* town, then him being gullible enough to be on both mislynches is a reason to keep him alive, so the [still alive] = [more likely to be scum] argument is also not useful. So of your three main reasons for voting him in point 7, I completely disagree with the first two. The last one might have been a good point, but you ignored it when it happened and only called him out on it when day 3 began.

... I did not find TAM especially suspect or I would have said as much. I do not typically go around saying I think so and so is more likely to be town. His town lean from me was evident from my lack of comment wrt him.

Uh, no it wasn't. DCLXVI made a sudden charge after TAM. Nacho and Rach expressed an interest in joining the wagon. You participated in the game since then, but didn't comment on TAM. If he was a townread for you, then I would expect a little bit of a defense or argument on your part. Since you said nothing, you were indifferent.

[mikeburnfire]

Are you seriously more willing to lynch Monty than Fengelein? That doesn't make any sense. If you don't think Fegelein is scum anymore, then why do you still think the TAMwagon was scum-rushed?

[mikeburnfire]

Survivor. He just posted his top three scumreads in his last post.

I am curious why he suspects Whiskers and Monty 'tho.

[mikeburnfire]

Mafia isn't strictly a game of odds though. 70% of those games have a common scum, but 30% of them don't. I think it's highly possible that either/both of DCLXVI or Nacho is scum, but I don't think being on both lynches is a good reason to vote somebody. And if the scumteam is really you-Monty-Whiskers or Whiskers-Monty-Nacho, then you're presenting two false choices.

My point, with regards to TAM, is that you *were* indifferent to TAM's lynch:
672 - DCLXVI makes a big case on TAM

687 - you inquire about a comment I made to RachMarie

696 - Nacho expresses interest in lynching TAM
697 - Rach expresses interest in lynching TAM

699 - You make fluff comment

700 - DCLXVI pushes for more TAM votes
707 - Survivor comments on the TAM wagon

708 - You change your vote
709 - You post a vote count,

indicating that looked through the posts being made

Stop acting like TAM was lynched behind your back.

[mikeburnfire]

Do I think there was scum TAM's wagon? 100%. At least one, possibly more.

Do I think the same scum on TAM's wagon was also on IP's wagon? Not 100%.

And how am I presenting a false choice if Nacho is scum (as one of your groupings above states)?

Because Nacho isn't scum in my other grouping.

I don't know if I did or didn't notice other people mentioning him as a suspect

You "don't know if you noticed"? We've reached Maximum Bullshit levels here.

Fitz is scum, and judging by his push on Nacho, he's town.

[mikeburnfire]

Of course you don't agree with me, Whiskers-- You're Fitz's scummate.

Fitz's logic that 2-3 scum must be on TAM's lynchwagon was a convenient way to take two of his group off the table today.

Don't think I forgot how you kissed Survivor's ass to make that 3-man voting block, either.

Who's the third person in your group: DCLXVI, or Monty?

[mikeburnfire]

I suppose Fegelein is also a possibility.

[mikeburnfire]

I can understand not remembering how you felt at the time. But that's not what you said. You said you don't remember if you noticed. That's a bold-faced lie. You either noticed it or you didn't.

You skimmed the page to make your VC, focusing on vote tallies. But let's just say for a moment that you're telling the truth-- that you weren't paying attention to what people were saying.

You put Feng at L-2

, which means you were being reckless with your vote since you hadn't been reading. Since you don't seem to be the reckless type, I am more inclined to believe you to be a liar.

Being on both lynches on it's own isn't a good reason. In conjunction with my other suspicions towards Nacho it is.

From what I gathered, you had (3) reasons to vote Nacho. The "being on both lynches" isn't a good reason on its own, by your own admission. You've also conceded the flaws in your [still alive] = [more likely to be scum] argument. Nacho has (IMO) adequately explained himself on his sudden change of heart. Your case on Nacho is almost completely dismantled. Either put forward more evidence, or focus on somebody else.

[mikeburnfire]

AD HOM alert!!! AD HOM alert!!!!> Are you trying to be stupid or does it come naturally?

Holy shit. I don't think I could write a more hypocritical sentence sentence if I tried.

[mikeburnfire]

As for my Feng vote...this is one of the best examples of strawmanning I have ever seen. What you are essentially saying is that, because I do not read every word between the votes when I'm catching up in a game...I subsequently "hadn't been reading" the entire game and therefore placed Feng unnecessarily in jeopardy by putting him at L-2. Hello?

If you were reading the game, then why don't you 'remember' how you felt about TAM, given that he was actively being discussed?
If you were not reading the game, then why did you put Feng at L-2?

The only reason I'm bothered about his lynch, in hindsight, is because he was town

Really? Because immediately after his lynch, you said you were bothered by the speed of the wagon.

AD HOM alert!!! [...] This is an overexaggeration, a misrep, and a lovely strawman.

I can use buzzwords too!

Ad nauseum! WIFOM! Appeal to Fear! Affirming the consequent!

[mikeburnfire]

Fitz claims amnesia and I don't believe him. This isn't hard to understand.

[mikeburnfire]

Can somebody please translate what Fitz is saying for me? Because

APPARENTLY

I'm misunderstanding him.

From what I gather, he didn't notice the people voicing support for a TAM wagon (or he did and didn't care or maybe he did care and he forgets I don't know anymore), but voted Feng over DCL because he thought it was the better wagon. When today began, he insisted that 2-3 scum were on TAM's wagon, indicating that he thinks the TAM wagon was a rushed effort by the scum to avoid Feng's lynch (implying Fengscum). But instead of going after Feng, he goes after Nacho. He's been pushing a case on Nacho for a long time (still voting him too!), even though his case has been proven to be weak.

When I inquired later about Feng, he insists that he still suspects him. He has repeated

numerous

times that TAM's speedwagon makes Feng look bad, but always returns to attacking the people on his wagon. He's tried to convince me that a single scum is likely to be on both mislynches. Failing that, and arousing my suspicions in the process, he has resorted to ad hominem attacks to try to start a lynch on me.

[mikeburnfire]

but

voted Feng over DCL because he thought it was the better wagon.

Why the "but?"  My voting for Feng D2 (or Fege or whatever the %^& he prefers) as opposed to DCL has nothing to do with my thoughts on TAM or his QL....which happened after I voted Feng!  See how disjointed your shit is today?  You are making no sense.

Attn town

....can you see mbf's weakass efforts to assign suspicions on me?  FFS...

That wasn't an attack. I was listing the chronology of what occurred.

When today began, he insisted that 2-3 scum were on TAM's wagon, indicating that he thinks the TAM wagon was a rushed effort by the scum to avoid Feng's lynch (implying Fengscum).

I didn't say it was an effort to avoid Feng's lynch...I said it didn't look good towards Feng. 

Why does TAM's quicklynch make Feng look worse? Furthermore, if you were willing to put Feng at L-2 yesterday, and the TAM wagon made him look

worse

, then why did you abandon him in favor of Nacho?

Being a counterwagon doesn't make Feng a lock to be scum and every day is a new day.  New information to work with.  My top suspect atm is where my vote is.  Problem?  Why aren't you voting DCL today?  What changed for you since D2? 

You say you think it's highly likely one or both of DCL and Nacho are scum yet you vote me.  WTF?

I don't recall a time when I called Nacho scum. In fact, I said I had a townish read on him today. As for DCLXVI, I've been trying to get him lynched all game and the only person who would join me today was Feng. It was a lost cause, so I publicly stated that I would not pursue his lynch today. Then I started looking at you, and you keep making less sense to me.

[mikeburnfire]

We're getting close to deadline, and we've spent most of the day discussing the merits of lynching either Nacho or Fitz. Is there a case on anybody else that somebody wants to present?

Fitz, I can't figure out what you're saying about the TAM wagon. If you so sure that TAM was quick-lynched by scum, then why did you stop pursuing a Feng lynch?

If you're not sure that Feng is scum, then why are you so assertive that scum were desperately scrambling onto TAM?

You thought Feng was suspicious enough to warrant a vote yesterday, and you keep saying (ad nauseum) that TAM's quicklynch makes Feng look bad. Today you even told me outright that you still suspect Feng.

Later in the day, he dropped below Nacho, Whiskers, and Monty on your suspicions list. Why?

[mikeburnfire]

..unless you think Whiskers and I are both scum...

I've outright stated that I think this is the case.
------------------------

I think I've mentioned it twice in the repeated responses to the same questions. I don't think that equates to "ad nauseum" tyvm. Nice painting.

you insinuating Feng is scum? Because I still suspect Feng as well. If anything I think the quickwagon on TAM reflects poorly on Feng.

..I said the TAM quickwagon reflected poorly on Feng.

I didn't say it was an effort to avoid Feng's lynch...I said it didn't look good towards Feng. And I still feel that way.

the TAM QL does reflect poorly on Feng but it's not IMO enough of a reason to vote him.

I was not saying Feng was scum. I said TAM's QL reflected poorly on Feng. i.e. it's a reason to be more suspicious towards Feng but it is not a slam dunk.

------------------------------

I haven't had Feng "ranked today" so how do you get that "later in the day" he dropped below Nacho, Whiskers, and Monty on my suspicions list?

This one is actually a mistake on my part, since in the earlier post you specified that you were only talking about the people on the TAM wagon.
----------------------------------

If you're not sure that Feng is scum, then why are you so assertive that scum were desperately scrambling onto TAM?

Unless anyone believes 2+ of you me and whiskers are scum...they have to agree there are at least 2 scum on TAMs lynch.

Are you stating that Whiskers and I cannot be scum together?

Furthermore, you still haven't explained why the scum would be desperately scrambling to lynch TAM in a townFeng scenario.

[mikeburnfire]

Thanks to the mod for being so attentive and posting votecounts often.

We were worried N1 about the PGO shot, but it looks like Survivor was the only one who used it, so that was unnecessarily stressful. Most of the time we just shot lurkers and empty slots.

The complete absence of any contribution by jillyne and the constant lurking of Monty did a real disservice to the town. Our win is less impressive because of it.

Apologies to goodmorning for the insta-kill as soon as he joined. It was a dick move, but also a sound tactical maneuver.

I have no problem with scumchatlogs being revealed.

[mikeburnfire]

Since Nacho doesn't mind, and I don't think Whiskers will....

http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/BrxFkuJRzxy