Open 529 -- Picking Simplicity -- Game Over

[Skullduggery]

/confirm

[Skullduggery]

VOTE: skullduggery i do not like the name.

Hey, there's nothing wrong with my username! I am gonna OMGUS you

so hard.

VOTE: aptil

for hypocrisy. if anyone is eager it is you with that avatar. scum found.

Are Town players incapable of being hypocritical?

[Skullduggery]

Much more likely to be an entity all your own, hm?

Sith Lord?

Sounds like someone who'd be SK.

What's with all the SK hunting?

Thanks, I thought that was gonna last the whole game, heh.

I do enjoy it if it doesn't last the whole game, no need to apologize!

This is Town.

[Skullduggery]

If they're not with us, they're against us! Do you not approve/agree?

On day one, our focus should be on finding anti-Town players. Town has no reason to be specifically looking for the SK yet. Scum does.

Thanks, I thought that was gonna last the whole game, heh.

I do enjoy it if it doesn't last the whole game, no need to apologize!

This is Town.

Why is this town?

What would be the Scum motivation for making those posts? Is there any?

You voted for me but I will change it before the deadline probably.

Echoing others. Can you explain what you meant by this, please?

Second, that post is just so... He intends to keep the vote on me no matter what?

That's not what he said, though. Why do you think that?

What does scum smell like?

Sauerkraut.

[Skullduggery]

If they're not with us, they're against us! Do you not approve/agree?

On day one, our focus should be on finding anti-Town players.

Is SK not anti-town? Also, just day one?

No, not just on day one. For the time being, though, we should focus on a day one strategy

since it's day one.

Also, good job cutting out the relevant half of my quote, in which I said that Town has no reason to be

specifically

looking for the SK this early in the game. Early-game SK hunting is a Scum tell. As I've already said, I'm trying to catch anti-Town players. It makes no difference to me whether it's Scum or the SK right now, but I can see how you'd disagree since your wincon appears to be different from mine.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: elleheathen

It doesn't initiate discussion, it hinders it. It could be fluff posting for the sole purpose of a +2 post counting to show activity. It could be a subject change because they didn't like the line of questioning it was leading to. It asks no questions and isn't hunting for scum.

To name a few. So again. Why is it town?

Fair points. Do you think Ranawey actually made those posts for the reasons you just listed? Is he scummy for doing so?

If they're not with us, they're against us! Do you not approve/agree?

On day one, our focus should be on finding anti-Town players. Town has no reason to be specifically looking for the SK yet. Scum does.

I'm pretty sure one should not care if it's a mafia lynch or an SK lynch.

Since...

Well...

Both lynches help anyways.

Which is what I just said. So...okay? Thanks for repeating me, I guess?

@skullduggery: He needs to explain what he meant by that exactly. Until he does, that's what i'm assuming he meant, because it's one of the more likely outcomes.

Okay. Why is it one of the more likely outcomes? What other outcomes do you see?

skull: of course.

Judging by your record, it looks like you've been around the block a few times. Have you never seen a Town player say or do something hypocritical?

Skull - Not liking her current motivation.

What is my current motivation? Do you know?

Both SK's and Mafia are our enemies, not anti-town players.

Uh...what? Mafia & SK = Anti-Town. You're saying that "Mafia & SK" and "Anti-Town" are two different categories? How so?

Also, if you think I'm Scum, you should vote for me.

You voted for me but I will change it before the deadline probably.

I meant to say that I'll probably change my vote on him before the deadline.

How are these different?

[Skullduggery]

I mean at this point I have to vote for someone. So I just voted for the guy that voted for me.

Okay. Has anything happened since then to give you a stronger Scum read on anybody else?

[Skullduggery]

townies do scummy things and scums do townie things. that's the nature of wifom. until you have a frame of reference, i.e. flips and associative tells, VCA, etc., you kind of have to call it like you see it. you seem to be gearing up to attack me regarding my RVS vote. by that I mean, you have now basically asked me the same question twice. generally, when someone continues to ask the same question in different ways, it is usually because they are digging for a particular response. I find this to be a scum trait much more than town. scum often "dig" for a response which they can then use for an attack. especially in the early game when our words are the only evidence available. townies will generally only repose a question if they did not understand the answer. did you not understand the humor involved or are you poking a bear with a stick so you can then try to convince the townspeople to shoot him after he mauls you?

I think maybe you're being a little too paranoid about this whole thing. I'm asking you questions so I can make an attempt to figure out how you think. In case you haven't noticed, that's kind of what I've been doing with everybody so far. Helps me get my bearings in large games with lots of players and lots of personalities/quirks/play styles to remember.

If getting to know you is what you consider "gearing up to attack you," then maybe you need to loosen up a little.

So you admit that the SK is anti-town. That you're hunting anti-town and in doing so, hunting the SK. But not specifically hunting them because that would be scum. Gotcha.
And yes, it may very well be different from yours if you're the SK (you seem rather concerned about this slot!) or scum.

You want to know one of my biggest Mafia-related pet peeves? When people use the word "admit" incorrectly. To admit something is to recognize a fault or a fallacy. I did not "admit" anything because I did not do anything wrong.

My definition of "anti-Town" is any faction that isn't Town. It collectively includes Scum, Serial Killer, and any other theoretical group whose win condition is in direct conflict with Town's win condition. I had assumed that this definition was universal enough that I wouldn't have to waste my time explaining it. Clearly I assumed incorrectly.

Where have I demonstrated that I'm "rather concerned" about the SK? Was it the part where I said that I couldn't care less whether we lynch Scum or the SK on day one?

I think they could have and if he did, then yes he is scummy for doing so.
So you've avoided this question twice now. Third time is a charm?
Why is it town?

Because they gave me Town vibes? I'm honestly not sure what kind of response you're expecting from me. I'm also honestly not sure why my response to this question is so important to you.

I'm not sure I like anyone on day one stating "I'm hunting anti-town players" [obvious alert] and this feels like an attempt to trap/stick a vote somewhere

Can you explain your thought process, please? I don't follow you.

I also consider bad towns, dumb downs, and lurking towns to be "anti-town" players because they can be a detriment to town's wincon.

And from your own words, SK = anti-town, which falls under the group you want us to hunt for. So what's the problem with people hunting the SK? The faster we eliminate the SK, the more quickly we enter a stage where we only have to deal with 1 possible night kill instead of 2.

Alright, well, I suppose it's just a matter of our definitions differing then. See above for my definition of "anti-Town."

If you're Scum in a setup like this, your first priority will be to find the SK first and

then

focus on the Town. That's because the SK can kill you and your teammates at night while Town can't. Therefore, it makes sense for Scum players to be actively trying to find the SK as early as possible so they can eliminate that nighttime danger. Do you see where I'm coming from here? Do you see why it's scummy to specifically focus on the SK when Town has no reason to be so picky at this point in the game?

[Skullduggery]

I'm not using the word 'admit' incorrectly. You can admit a truth just as you can admit a lie. To admit, is to concede that something is valid.

Me: "I like Frosted Flakes."
You: "Aha! So you admit that you like Frosted Flakes!"

You say it with a tone of accusation, as though it's somehow a bad thing for me to like Frosted Flakes. Similarly, saying that I "admit that the SK is anti-Town" makes it sounds like it's a bad thing for me to view the SK as anti-Town. Where is the fault here? I see none.

I wanted to found out your reasoning for asking because it seemed as if you were either:

A) concerned we were legitimately SK hunting because you thought it was scum motivated
B) concerned we were legitimately SK hunting because you're the SK
C) were not concerned that we were actually SK hunting at all because you're mafia but wanted to paint it as scummy

One makes you town. One makes you SK. One makes you mafia.

The rather concerned portion makes me think that you are A or B.
The reply makes me think that you are A.
Your response over my questioning does not.

Then why aren't you voting for me?

Becauuuuse. I don't see at all what was town about the two quotes but you saw enough that you labeled it as definite town. I wanted to know why. I asked.

Do you honestly believe that an early impression I got from a player on page three when we were barely out of RVS approached anything even remotely resembling "definite"?

Do you not like questions? Geez.

Let me answer your question with another question: Do you normally make it a habit to ask pointless and needlessly obnoxious questions just so you can snidely ask if the other person doesn't like questions in general when they don't feel compelled to waste their time responding to something that has no bearing or significance to the rest of the game?

Skullduggery, no admit is just to acknowledge something as true. See "Admissions of a Party Opponent" in Civil Procedure/Rules of Evidence if you want to be bored. I admit my name is Titus. That's not a logical fallacy. To admit is merely to acknowledge something as true. That's how the word is commonly used in the professional and mafia circles I go with. So yeah, it may be your pet peeve but you understand the word wrong. Admit is the opposite of deny. Denying is to say something is untrue. For instance, I deny being Skullduggery.

Thank you for your irrelevant contribution. Also, you're wrong.

I still prefer going after HGH, but considering his activity levels as well as the content he provides we could wait months to get something, if we focus on him too much.

I can see the logic and validity of the case on Aptil. He also hasn't contributed anything since then.

Why is Aptil a bigger priority than HGH at the moment? It sounds like you're suspicious of both of them for the same reasons (low activity and hasn't contributed much to the game).

Haven't read everything thoroughly let, but I agree that Aptil seems like he isn't doing much.

VOTE: Aptil

Is inactivity a Scum tell?

well do you really need to declare you are going after anti-town players? Isn't that obvious if you are town?

Hi there. I'm playing a game of Mafia on a Website called MafiaScum.com.

There, I just said something obvious. Am I Scum because of it?

and if someone wants to hunt the SK specifically, that's fine by me, we need to get them all after all

Do you disagree with the explanation I gave to Brian at the bottom of 131?

[Skullduggery]

'This is town' is definite. It is not 'This looks town' or 'I think this may be town'.

I'm Scum because of semantics. Makes perfect sense. That means we can now add "weak reasoning" to your growing list of accolades.

This is exactly why I find your town read of them to be fabricated, not only because I can't see at all what is town about the two things that you quote but because it looks like a scum throwing out bogus town reads just to look town.

Has Ranawey flipped yet? Do you know his alignment already? That means we can now add "soft-defending another player for Town points" to your growing list of accolades.

lolololol. I'm going to take this as a "No, I don't like questions." How scummy of you!

Which isn't at all what I said, you colossal moron. That means we can now add "illiterate" to your growing list of accolades.

Actually, for once, I think you may have a point!

"For once"? If you think I haven't made any points in this game thus far, then that means you obviously haven't been reading anything I've said that hasn't been directed at you. That means we can now add "selective reading" to your growing list of accolades.

VOTE: skullduggery

So you needed my blessing before you would vote for me. That means we can now add "afraid to start a serious wagon" to your growing list of accolades.

[Skullduggery]

I asked them a serious question about their repeated inquiries to me and they reply by trying to paint me with slanderous and negative terminology.

This is a flat-out lie. I assume you're referring to this post, yes? How did I try to slander you? There is nothing at all slanderous about this response.

How do two questions constitute "repeated inquiries"?

Skull seems to be hostile and trying to manipulate the conversation to his whims rather than reality.

Can you quote specific examples of me doing this?

[Skullduggery]

Is anyone else completely annoyed with Aeronaut's redundancy? Uttering "...your growing list of accolades..." with smarmy undertones isn't going to win some people's ears, [Skullduggery]. I suppose we can add boorishness to your growing list of accolades.

It was one post, and they were all valid points. Not my problem if you can't see that.

What's your gambit going with "if you think I'm scum, vote me?" Who, honestly, as any town, invites that upon themselves? To me it's just an excuse to try to buy town credit.

There's no gambit. And

I

invite that upon myself as Town. I did it in Newbie 1352 on day one. Ask jmo16mla -- he was there. I also did it in WWE Mafia. Started a counter-wagon

on myself

on day one that put me at L-3 before people realized how retarded they were being. Both times I was Town. And guess what? I'm doing it here as Town too.

I hate it when people pussyfoot around their read of me. "Golly, Skull, I think you might be Scum, but I'm gonna vote for someone else because gosh, I just don't know." Drives me crazy. If you think I'm Scum, vote for me. It has nothing to do with Town credit. It has to do with stopping people from doing something that annoys me.

Jesus, Skullduggery is already at nine votes. Guys, please don't hammer Skull too soon. We have over 16 days left. Anything could happen in the meantime.

I'm not defending Skull.

I'm just saying we've got a LOT of time to use.

Those four words tell me everything I need to know. You're afraid that people will think you were defending me if I flip Scum (which I won't, but you don't know this) and come after you as a possible partner. That means you don't know what I'll flip. Welcome to the Town pile.

I intend to hammer Skull.

Skull, please start talking.

No one quickhammer, please.

Why did you tell nobody to hammer me and then say you were going to hammer me six posts later?

I may have missed it, but did you ever explain why you thought I was scummy enough to hammer when the game was barely even a week old? (Not gonna lie -- I've just been skimming to get caught up.)

Right now, Skull is under enormous pressure to either talk, or get out.

It seems that you and I have vastly differing definitions of "enormous pressure" then. Why are my only two options to talk or get out?

she disappeared as the wagon grew. maybe trying to shed the pressure?

Skull dissappearing is making him look even scummier in my eyes. Keeping my vote where it is.

I stepped away from the game for a few days because I was getting really frustrated and was very close to saying something that would almost assuredly get me nightkilled. But no, no, that's exactly the same as "disappearing" because I'm Scum who is under so much gosh-darn pressure that by golly, I just can't deal with it. Keep reaching for that rainbow, guys.

The fact that Skull has logged in multiple times and hasn't said anything in regards to it or posted a v/la doesn't look good

If I had announced that I was going V/LA for a few days right as the wagon on me grew into hammering range, that would have just given you and the rest of your team one more reason to push for my mislynch. No thanks.

Something tells me us trying to reach an 11-vote lynch on Day one is going to be a struggle.

Wasn't much of a struggle to get me within hammering distance in the course of a week. Why do you assume that it can't happen again to someone else?

[Skullduggery]

Here's what has been bothering me about don_johnson. I'm going to cut out all the bullshit and post only the brief conversation we had at the beginning of the game that was somehow able to convince him that I was Scum. This is the full conversation and nothing has been removed or edited. If, after reading this, you feel compelled to believe his side of the story over mine, I'd sure as heck like to hear why.

Spoiler:

VOTE: titus
You seemed eager.

vote: jmo

for hypocrisy. if anyone is eager it is you with that avatar. scum found.

for hypocrisy. if anyone is eager it is you with that avatar. scum found.

Are Town players incapable of being hypocritical?

skull: of course.

skull: of course.

Judging by your record, it looks like you've been around the block a few times. Have you never seen a Town player say or do something hypocritical?

skull: of course.

Judging by your record, it looks like you've been around the block a few times. Have you never seen a Town player say or do something hypocritical?

townies do scummy things and scums do townie things. that's the nature of wifom. until you have a frame of reference, i.e. flips and associative tells, VCA, etc., you kind of have to call it like you see it. you seem to be gearing up to attack me regarding my RVS vote. by that I mean, you have now basically asked me the same question twice. generally, when someone continues to ask the same question in different ways, it is usually because they are digging for a particular response. I find this to be a scum trait much more than town. scum often "dig" for a response which they can then use for an attack. especially in the early game when our words are the only evidence available. townies will generally only repose a question if they did not understand the answer. did you not understand the humor involved or are you poking a bear with a stick so you can then try to convince the townspeople to shoot him after he mauls you?

townies do scummy things and scums do townie things. that's the nature of wifom. until you have a frame of reference, i.e. flips and associative tells, VCA, etc., you kind of have to call it like you see it. you seem to be gearing up to attack me regarding my RVS vote. by that I mean, you have now basically asked me the same question twice. generally, when someone continues to ask the same question in different ways, it is usually because they are digging for a particular response. I find this to be a scum trait much more than town. scum often "dig" for a response which they can then use for an attack. especially in the early game when our words are the only evidence available. townies will generally only repose a question if they did not understand the answer. did you not understand the humor involved or are you poking a bear with a stick so you can then try to convince the townspeople to shoot him after he mauls you?

I think maybe you're being a little too paranoid about this whole thing. I'm asking you questions so I can make an attempt to figure out how you think. In case you haven't noticed, that's kind of what I've been doing with everybody so far. Helps me get my bearings in large games with lots of players and lots of personalities/quirks/play styles to remember.

If getting to know you is what you consider "gearing up to attack you," then maybe you need to loosen up a little.

vote skullduggery

not liking their approach. at all. I asked them a serious question about their repeated inquiries to me and they reply by trying to paint me with slanderous and negative terminology. I agree with tcold's gut feeling mentioned above and I see skull coming out on the scumside.

can someone on the aptil wagon, please summarize the aptil wagon?

I asked them a serious question about their repeated inquiries to me and they reply by trying to paint me with slanderous and negative terminology.

This is a flat-out lie. I assume you're referring to this post, yes? How did I try to slander you? There is nothing at all slanderous about this response.

How do two questions constitute "repeated inquiries"?

He then proceeded to ignore my questions and start talking about other subjects in 299 as if his mind was already made up.

I began by asking him some harmless questions to try to figure out his thought process, but he quickly twisted my inquiries around to make it seem as though I had more sinister intentions. I asked him what he was doing and he offered no justification for it. Plus, his adorable little analogy where he compares himself a dangerous bear sends another message loud and clear: nobody should make an attempt to question him or bother him or else they'll end up getting viciously mauled just like poor little foolish Skullduggery.

What kind of Townie actively tries to discourage the other players from learning more about him? What kind of Townie tries to make an example out of the first person to question him in a semi-serious capacity so nobody else will attempt to do so?

[Skullduggery]

Wake88, I asked you some questions in 357. Answer them, please. I'd like to put my Town read of you to the test.

TCold = skull is being abrasive and a **** (sounds legit)

Why do you feel that this is a legit reason for TCold to vote for me? Is abrasiveness strictly a Scum characteristic?

also,
unvote given skull's recent post.

skull, if i missed some legitimate questions just repost them and i'll answer.

now i have to reread with skull as town.

Well, I only have one question for you at the moment: Why am I suddenly not worth your vote after I pointed out how incredibly scummy you were during our conversation earlier in the game?

[Skullduggery]

Why do you feel that this is a legit reason for TCold to vote for me?

Myself, and many other players, have made votes based on "well that guy's being an ass". It's an actual vote reasoning I've seen many times.

So because you've seen it used as a reason by more than one person, that somehow makes it a legit reason? How? Have you never encountered a Town player that you didn't get along with?

For the record, I know I've been a jerk this game, and no, I am not normally this abrasive when I play Mafia. My sourpuss attitude is a result of half the damn player list dog-piling onto me for one bullshit reason or another as soon as the game began, and my natural response to idiocy is usually sarcasm and snark. I've been frustrated, and when I get frustrated, I get grumpy. Now tell me, at what point during this process does Scum motivation become evident?

sorry. maybe I wasn't clear enough. I disagree with your "case" against me if that's what you call it. I don't think I was scummy at all. I think you asked me the same question twice. had I not answered it, I could see your reasons, but asking the same question twice when you were given what was, imo, a clear and distinct answer, is just odd. I see scum do that a lot. they harp on the same thing consistently enough until they get an answer that they can use to attack a person.

I explained the motivation behind my questions in 131. Was my explanation insufficient in some way?

my unvote and move to the town pile is based on something I see in your post which indicates to me that I could be wrong about you.

Good. If you're referring to what I think you are, then there may be hope for you yet.

what is your take on skelda?

Nothing concrete yet. He's been kinda sorta defending me thus far, so I've been looking for cues that he might be Scum trying to white-knight me. Not really seeing it. He's suspicious of you, but that in itself isn't scummy since, from my point of view, there is plenty to be suspicious about. I'm not going to call someone Scum for agreeing with me.

It's your problem if you do things to annoy people.

Oh, get off your fucking high horse. Do you think I'm deliberately going out of my way to "annoy people" just for shits 'n' giggles? Or hey, here's a perfectly reasonable alternative that I bet you didn't think about: Maybe I'm trying to get the trigger-happy mouth-breathers off my wagon and onto a Scum wagon because I know how detrimental my mislynch would be to my team. Maybe I'm trying to employ a different approach to get people to listen to me since calm, logical reasoning

didn't fucking work.

Jesus, Skullduggery is already at nine votes. Guys, please don't hammer Skull too soon. We have over 16 days left. Anything could happen in the meantime.

I'm not defending Skull.

I'm just saying we've got a LOT of time to use.

Those four words tell me everything I need to know. You're afraid that people will think you were defending me if I flip Scum (which I won't, but you don't know this) and come after you as a possible partner. That means you don't know what I'll flip. Welcome to the Town pile.

Don't be so sure.

Don't be so sure about what? About you not knowing what I'll flip? If you're a VT like you claim (or any Townie, for that matter), then you

don't know what I'll flip.

Are you trying to make me question the reason why I'm calling you Town? If so, why?

Because it is, in itself, tough. Do you think it's not tough in general to reach an 11-vote majority in a 20-player game?

You

have

seen my wagon, right? You

did

see how quickly it built up, right?

[Skullduggery]

This is one of the possible outcomes I was anticipating.

I sense that you are grasping at whatever you can, Skull.

Of course I'm grasping at what I can. I don't know your alignment and I'm trying to figure it out, smart guy.

Don't be so sure of me being Town.

At what point did I indicate that I was "sure" that you were Town? At what point did I indicate that I wasn't actively trying to figure out your alignment?

You make it seem that you're so sure of what I am, but you don't.

So you know that I'm Town then.

Either it's a bad Town mistake, or Scum seeking to curry favor. I hate it.

You hate it when people try to figure out your alignment?

With your sterling personality, yes.

Ha! You're one to talk. Do you even read the caustic bullshit you've been spewing? Do you know what a "hypocrite" is?

I did like how he scolded Skullduggery for her suggestion that we should be finding and lynching anti-Town players who happen to be Town

What the fuck? I never said this.

And even if she did, I think she might just not like playing games where people suspect her. I know I don't.

Nah, I'm fine with it if the suspicion is legitimate. That's not the case with this game. This game has been a case of people piling onto my wagon for one poor reason after another, and all my attempts to defend myself have been twisted around by either Scum looking for an easy mislynch or overzealous Townies who don't know what they're doing. That's the part that frustrates me.

what I stated was that "she's lurking in all her games sitewide", was not viable reasoning to forgive her for lurking in this game as it is just as easy and expected for someone to lurk sitewide when under pressure as it is to expect them to lurk in a single game. i was using logic to prevent skull from being let off the hook with illogical reasoning.

Skull, did you choose to lurk in all games because of this one? Is that what you meant?

To be fair, I'm only playing two games at the moment, and my other game is stuck in the mud (it's ongoing, obviously, so I won't say anything more about it). Also, saying that I was "lurking" implies that I was actually reading the thread during my absence. I wasn't. I stepped away from it altogether so I could calm down before saying something detrimental.

I don't think you think before you post, but I think as scum you would have realized that the "I am VT" claim is basically a "Please investigate me tonight" sign in flashing neon if it doesn't get you killed in the here and now. It sorta backed up my "hyper/untrustworthy" read I had been picking up.

That and your Aero post is actually fairly solid.

What do you think of the Wake88 snippet I quoted above -- "You make it seem that you're so sure of what I am, but you don't"? Does that seem like a Scum slip to you?

Skelda noticeably lied by distorting my action, by saying I was demanding people to do so. Only Scum intentionally distorts the truth. Sounds like frustrated Scum. Let's lynch Skelda. If I die, get him. Go go go.

And you don't vote for him because...?

explaining townreads is really anti-town because if I explain what I think makes you town, scumbags are going to start trying to emulate that behavior. then i'll have to change what i think is town, and that's just annoying...

This seems counter-intuitive. Explaining why you think a player is Town is anti-Town behavior? In that case, all Town reads would basically just boil down to gut reads if you can't explain them. And willingly withholding your opinions of the other players means that you're denying Town information, which in itself is anti-Town. I don't follow your logic here.

When you say that you'll have to change what you think is Town, what do you mean by that? The method you use to identify Town players seems like something that should remain consistent regardless of whether you have to explain it or not.

[Skullduggery]

did not like wincon post at 103

Any particular reason?

VOTE: Maenara-based on the previous person's play, this slot is scummy imo.

What did you find scummy about thenewearth? His ISO screams null to me.

First of all, lynch Wake88. Not "please do this", not "do this for reasons". Just do it. I've already said why, and policy lynches are bloody necessary, both for the sake of this individual game - not letting him live to LyLo, not having a cop waste an investigation on him - and for the sake of improving play on the site in general. VIs are not supposed to be allowed to just lollygag.

If there are enough people who are on-board with policy lynching Wake88, you will have my support.

Spoiler:

[Skullduggery]

@Antihero:

Spoiler:

explaining townreads is really anti-town because if I explain what I think makes you town, scumbags are going to start trying to emulate that behavior. then i'll have to change what i think is town, and that's just annoying...

This seems counter-intuitive. Explaining why you think a player is Town is anti-Town behavior? In that case, all Town reads would basically just boil down to gut reads if you can't explain them. And willingly withholding your opinions of the other players means that you're denying Town information, which in itself is anti-Town. I don't follow your logic here.

When you say that you'll have to change what you think is Town, what do you mean by that? The method you use to identify Town players seems like something that should remain consistent regardless of whether you have to explain it or not.

Why would you vote someone based on something the previous slot did? It's not like you're going to elicit a useful response from them.

Because a player's alignment doesn't change when they replace out.

What, pray tell, is "screaming town" about Wake, jmo?

Oh, he's town, there is no doubt about that. If he is scum, he is seriously the stupidest scum I've ever played with.

If there is no doubt about Wake being Town, why acknowledge the possibility of him being Scum in the very next sentence?

I liked Skull's case on Don_Johnson but I need to do my own read on the game to see if I agree.

For what it's worth, I've pretty much changed my mind about Don_Johnson. I said something earlier that would have caused a smart Town player to back off. He backed off. He can be Town for today. I'm not interested in pursuing that wagon right now.

no. you didn't. it was terrible.

Quiet, you. It was a perfectly reasonable case...at the time.

As I said, there is a very high chance of me being Town.

No. Either you are or you aren't. There is no "very high" chance of your alignment being one way or the other -- especially from your point of view since you know what your role PM says.

Wake, can you just like...not post? I can't speak for the others, but now that you are confirmed, I would prefer it if you just never posted.

Bwuh? When did Wake become confirmed?

[Skullduggery]

skull, unless Wake gets close to a lynch (he won't), then there's better uses of my time than to explain a townread. if everyone absolutely demands it, I suppose i'll comb through his ISO and pull out a some things that I used to make my call, but honestly, I think my efforts are better spent elsewhere

i'm also not going to get into the "information" debate (that's related to "how much content is too much content" and that's what MD is for; take it there if you think that text walling is great for town and that townies ought to say

everything

they're thinking. have fun. enjoy.).

This isn't an answer to the question I asked.

Am I correct in assuming that you don't know the answer?

[Skullduggery]

Sven, regarding your Town read on Antihero, what are your thoughts on his 438 and my questioning of it at the bottom of 443? Does that not strike you as a really unusual thing for a Townie to say? Why would he have to change what he thinks is Town?

Townies have scum reads not townreads. SCUMREADS!

For what it's worth, Sven did the same thing as Town in WWE Mafia. He spent most of his time trying to figure out who was Town rather than who was Scum. Could just be a playstyle thing. Having said that, I don't know if I feel confident enough to call Sven Town yet since he replaced into a fairly scummy slot. We'll see how things play out.

What the hell? Wake practically admits he is the sk and everyone ignores this? No reasoning why I am wrong or right? Major scum points for everyone above me.

Sorry, could you post some quotes from Wake to support your assertion that he admitted to being the SK? I've kind of been ignoring Wake for the sake of maintaining my sanity.

we're on two different wavelengths then

what's the question?

You said this in 438:

Spoiler:

explaining townreads is really anti-town because if I explain what I think makes you town, scumbags are going to start trying to emulate that behavior. then i'll have to change what i think is town, and that's just annoying...

I asked you this in 443:

Spoiler:

When you say that you'll have to change what you think is Town, what do you mean by that? The method you use to identify Town players seems like something that should remain consistent regardless of whether you have to explain it or not.

It just struck me as a really weird thing to say and I want to know what you meant by it.

I say we vote for BP or jmo (for reasons that RBD and I have already stated). I would also roll with a jacob wagon. But what does anyone else think?

Eh. Of those three choices, BoroPhil is probably the one I would pick. I'd much rather lynch elleheathen, though. She's Scum. There's a reason why I've kept my vote on her since page five.

Titus makes some fair points about SK-Wake, and if she can back it up with specific quotes from Wake, I can see myself supporting that lynch as well.

actually yeah, I suspect anyone who starts shouting about how town they are on the 1st day - no shit, really? I don't see how legitimate townies need to tell everyone this.

Are you saying that I did this? Because I didn't. I'd love to see you quote some posts of mine where I did this. (Or try to, at any rate.)

If you think that it's scummy to shout about how Town you are, why aren't you voting Wake?

I didn't say skull was 'scummy all along' I said he looked scummy from the start, to which there is a subtle difference.

Can you explain the subtle difference, then? I must not be cultured enough to discern it.

[Skullduggery]

Skull, Post 629 is the post where I believe Wake slipped. I called Wake out on his plan as it benefited the SK. His response is to say that he "forgot" about the SK. Then, he proceeds to direct every role but the SK as to what to do. Why? I can't even figure out a good reason to talk to the mafia. However, ignoring the SK again is telling. It suggests he has no need to talk to the SK because he is the SK. The whole conversation, my being paranoid about Wake's gambit and efforts to self-confirm lead to that post by Wake. I never really liked Wake as town and his behavior to me is really indicative of the SK. Confirm me as town and then get anyone but me.

Noted. Thanks.

84, and 103 skull. repeatedly stating how you are after 'anti-town' players and then voting for elle for daring to hunt for the SK.

why did you feel the need to remind us we are hunting anti-town players?

84 and 103 were both responses to questions that elleheathen asked me. Saying that I was "repeatedly stating" it when I was only answering her questions seems suspect, sir.

People I would be willing to vote

aptil, utcitron, don_johnson,

antihero

, jmo

Why are you suddenly okay with voting Antihero when he was in your Town block before (636 and 638)? How and when did he fall from "Town block" to "people I'd be willing to vote for today"?

I'd also appreciate an answer to the question I asked you in 707, please.

Anyone voting for a person for whom nobody else is voting needs to get real, right now.

Mumble grumble.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Wake88

Him or BoroPhil. I've narrowed it down to those two.

[Skullduggery]

Regarding 707, If I would have had any thoughts on it I would have answered you.

So Antihero's mercurial opinion of what constitutes Town behavior didn't warrant any consideration or affect your read of him in any way? That seems peculiar.

I have stated why Wake is town, there has been no case counter, just continued pushing of policy im going to call that scummy.

What about Titus' case on Wake? Does it not count? It isn't centered around lynching Wake for policy reasons.

Titus, I don't think Wake SK slipped. If we wind up lynching him today, it will be on policy, not on your imagined slips.

Why do you think they're imaginary?

Can we seriously kill elle who has just completely stopped posting as of late? She is scum to start then comes the massive lurk move when stuff starts happening.

You know I would love to, but I don't think it's happening today, unfortunately.

My case on JS? He hasn't provided any content. Pretty simple.

Can you expand on this? He's not the only player here who has contributed little to no content. Why is he the worst offender?

Or my current vote, Loran, because it's the most lynchable pool, and my theory is that he "read up" on his predecessor slot because he needed to carefully see how scum laid it out his story so that he doesn't get caught up in any inconsistencies. My guess is that as town, you just go into the game and not care what your previous townie slot said. By going back and reading back what HGH said, he is trying to be careful and calculative.

Eh. A good replacement would read the thread to get caught up on the game -- including posts made by their predecessor. Why is that scummy? I think you're making an assumption about Loran here that may not necessarily be true.

[Skullduggery]

@Antihero:

I'm putting this in its own post

just for you, buddy

. I don't think I'm asking you a difficult question here.

we're on two different wavelengths then

what's the question?

You said this in 438:

Spoiler:

explaining townreads is really anti-town because if I explain what I think makes you town, scumbags are going to start trying to emulate that behavior. then i'll have to change what i think is town, and that's just annoying...

I asked you this in 443:

Spoiler:

When you say that you'll have to change what you think is Town, what do you mean by that? The method you use to identify Town players seems like something that should remain consistent regardless of whether you have to explain it or not.

It just struck me as a really weird thing to say and I want to know what you meant by it.

You've been too much of a non-entity this game for my liking. It would be ever-so-lovely if you'd help me form an opinion of you, but you can't do that by brushing me off and spouting empty one-liners.

[Skullduggery]

Narrowed it down in what fashion? I don't disagree with either lynch, per se, but it's for radically different reasons, and you seem to be equating them.

When I made that post, I meant that I had narrowed my focus down to voting for either Wake or BoroPhil today. At this point in the game, I don't feel strongly enough about any of the other top vote-getters to support their respective lynches today.

Don, my slot really has no content. ISOing it probably won't give you too many answers.

And you're...okay with that?

what exactly do you mean by I'm not pursuing anyone? I'm a hell of a lot more active than you who has done basically fuck all for most of the game then comes along with that. Fine, you don't think my scumhunting is any good, but at least I am trying to do something in this game which is more than I can say for 85% of the players, including you for the majority.

When someone accuses you of being scummy for whatever reason, it's generally not a good sign to point to someone else and say, "Why aren't you accusing them too? They're doing the same thing, but they're so much worse than me." Smells of deflection.

Large game. I usually stick to micro and newbie games because of their smaller size.

Does that mean we can expect more from you once some of the riffraff has been weeded out and the player list is smaller? (Assuming you're still alive by then, of course.)


With the deadline looming and no other viable wagons forming on players I want dead, I feel comfortable getting behind the BoroPhil lynch. I won't beat a dead horse and other folks have presented plenty of evidence on him already, but I will say that my interactions with him thus far have left a sour taste in my mouth. I just have a difficult time seeing his actions coming from a Town mindset.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: BoroPhil

[Skullduggery]

Mae is accusing me of poor scumhunting because she thinks she is scum.

I'm guessing this isn't what you meant to say.

You've spent a lot of time lately disputing Skelda's vote on you, but why haven't you been engaging more with Maenara? She seems to want to lynch you more than anyone else on your wagon. If you wanted to diffuse this wagon on you, I imagine that that's where you would want to start.

I think mine has been good, but in reality that's moot. My point is I am actually doing some, as opposed to the majority of players in here.

Fact is we have a lot of people doing not a lot, and as is typical on day one one of the more active town players is on their way to getting lynched.

Do you think we should be going after lurkers as well? What's your take on the Aptil counter-wagon?

I read this as active-, and Sven's most recent post as passive resistance for the BP wagon, which is good.

Are you saying that passive resistance is better than active resistance? If so, how?

Wait, what happened to the BP wagon? Why aptil? Because aptil is an easy vote, probably. If it comes between aptil and a No Lynch, I'll vote aptil, but the wagon just seeems out of nowhere, probably because BP is scum being spared.

I agree with this. Aptil seems like easy mislynch bait to me. His play thus far leans closer to clueless Town that is being misinterpreted as Scum-motivated. He isn't worth a no-lynch, though, so I will begrudgingly move my vote to him if I absolutely have to. I'd much, much rather get rid of BoroPhil or Wake, though.

ucti and ABR are so scum here.... they really need death more than anypony else. I actually didn't think elle slot could get worse but it did.

I don't like ABR either.

We can worry about him tomorrow. For reference, he and Sven were the original proponents of derailing the BoroPhil wagon (here). When/if BoroPhil flips Scum, I think ABR would be a fantastic place to look for potential Scum buddies first.

[Skullduggery]

oh look, they brought back the aptil wagon...

i gotta go see what he did now.

Fuck you.

Any reason why we can't deal with them now? Deadline is approaching and activity has spiked (seriously, what is it with this site and deadlines?).

Despite elleheathen's painfully obvious Scum motivations and despite RainbowDash's marvelous point-by-point case against her, a disappointingly small number of people actually seemed interested in lynching her. We can revisit that slot tomorrow when we aren't all stressing about getting a lynch in before the deadline. Besides which, BoroPhil's flip could give us some valuable information about ABR in the process.

I've been going after skelda because his case on me is a total fabrication, again I can't see why he is receiving zero attention. what do you think of him and his interaction with me a couple of pages back?

I honestly don't see the Scum motivation that you claim he exhibited during that conversation.

Everyone else on my wagon seems to be shrugging their shoulders and saying well he's probably town but we need to lynch someone.

Who do you think is doing this? Name some names.

If I am lynched, Skelda has to be the lynch tomorrow.

If you flip Town, I'll take a closer look at Skelda tomorrow.

[Skullduggery]

VOTE: Albert B. Rampage

[Skullduggery]

Vote Skullduggery

Oh, this ought to be good. How does BoroPhil's flip incriminate me?

and titus, maenara will keep me alive so just lay the fuck off.

What is this supposed to mean?

i remember a post by titus about "why wouldnt aptil vote boro", one thought would be that they both were scum.

And yet, BoroPhil had no problem voting for Aptil. Why wouldn't this be a two-way street?

What I am most confused by is the Skelda kill to be honest.

Why?

Why is that the most pressing issue on your mind? Seems pretty obvious too me. BoroPhil pushed pretty hard to get Skelda lynched. As a result of Boro's flip, Skelda earned major Town points, and Scum probably figured they wouldn't be able to get a mislynch out of him.

Also good lynches:

Brian,

Manera

, ABR, DJ, RM

Do you really think it's likely that BoroPhil and Maenara are Scum buddies after everything that happened between them on day one?

ABR is most likely town. no way scumABR defends a buddy going down in flames.

Why not? He was one of the main proponents of the Aptil counter-wagon. When that fizzled out, he had to stick to his guns and defend Boro anyway.

skullduggery: any particular town/scum reads besides your vote?

Town: RainbowDash, Maenara, Titus, Evil Regals, Don_Johnson, Aptil, Brian Skies
Scum: Albert B. Rampage, Svenskt Stal, Antihero

Undecided on everyone else.

[Skullduggery]

I'm not motivated to go through 50 pages and get lynched anyway because I made a mistake with Boro.

Do you really think that's the only reason people are suspicious of you?

[Skullduggery]

Also I could see Stel actually being scum based on his defence of me.

Trying to basically undo the possible issue Boro has caused by his push on me, so responds with SUPER BUDDYING!

But your conviction isn't strong enough to actually vote for Sven? What's holding you back? Do you have doubts? If so, perhaps you should voice them.

I did see someone towards the end of the day before DJ hammered trying to derail the wagon. Said BP was being helpful. Need to look back on who said that because I'd keep my eye on them.

You might be thinking of Albert -- 1195.

I would be very surprised if both ABR and Stal are scum, but i'm starting to think that's how it is.

That doubt is starting to gnaw on my mind as well. Sven and Albert being Scum buddies makes a lot of sense, but it almost seems

too

obvious, you know? Guess we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

I'm just going to put this out here, but isn't JacobSavage the most suspicious player from yesterday?

Unvote, vote JacobSavage

I mean, read his ISO. It's ridiculously plain.

Most

suspicious? No. He's definitely going to require Town's attention soon, but I don't think he's our top priority at the moment.

I did however comment on your case on me, althou that was not aimed at you but to others who you try to get to lynch me, which almost all has to do with me protecting known scum and pushing known town... so basicly, if i am town I am being lynched day 2 for having bad reads.

When did Aptil become "known Town"? Or were you referring to someone else? (Skelda, maybe? Aside from one or two offhand remarks, I don't recall you actually pushing for his lynch at any point.)

What do you mean by "if i am town"? If you received a Town PM, there would be no "if" in your statement.

[Skullduggery]

As for the Cop claim shenanigans...

@Loranthaceae:

If you had a guilty result on Wake, why was this your first post of the day?

Spoiler:

VOTE: Albert B Rampage

@Sven
I've had it up to here with your quintuple posting bullshit Sven. Wake didn't vote boro either, but you don't seem to think that makes Wake less town so I think you just claimed scum.

And why did you then brush off that vote on with...

Spoiler:

I didn't put much effort into explaining my vote because it's fairly obvious that ABR has one of the shittiest towncreds rivaled only by that of Brian Skies and Sven, who I'd also be willing to vote.

I don't understand why you felt the need to go after Albert first. Plus, it just seems bizarre that you would start the day with something other than an immediate proclamation that you have a guilty result.

I do recall saying Scum would do and keep doing everything they could to discredit me. Although, I do find this obvious move a bit extreme. He'd have you believe I'm a Goon..

We'll know soon enough that Loran is lying Scum.

If he's a Goon, the Serial Killer would be wise to stab him tonight. If he's the Serial Killer, the Goons would be wise to shoot him down.

Loranthaceae's move is sel-sacrificial. He/they really, really NEED to get rid of me to keep me from becoming more effective as the game progresses.

This is going to sound like I'm just being a jerk, but it's a serious question: Why do you think that you're so important to the Town that the Scum team would sacrifice one of their own just to take you down -- especially since they're already down by one? The Scum team does not have numbers on their side. It seems foolish for them to sacrifice a member of the team just so they can take down a single Townie who has already claimed VT.

Also, if you knew right away that Loran was lying, why didn't you vote for him in 1390?


Will withhold voting to make sure everyone has a chance to add their two cents first. Ideally, it would be nice to get at least one post from all the remaining players before we go through with this.

[Skullduggery]

@ Nobody Special: Could one request to be successfully modkilled just because? To prove L is Scum??

Don't you fucking dare. There's something I still need to figure out before we decide on a course of action. There's still a very important decision that I have to make. Nobody is dying until I make it. Are we clear on that?

[Skullduggery]

I'm pretty sure Sven wouldn't have bothered to post so much, and there wouldn't have been the pressure on [ABR], which was fairly revealing.

What conclusions did you draw from it?

Wake, don't let me stop you from scumhunting.

Wake promised some scumhunting.

The fuck? If you have a guilty on him, that means you know that he's Scum. What kind of "Scum hunting" do you expect him to do?

And to answer the other part of your question, it's because in spite of some hype I'm actually damned good at playing this game, especially late game. Why else would the Goons choose to do this crap to me, instead of some Townie they viewed as the most helpful?

...I don't fully understand why exactly Scum would sacrifice one of their own to knock out a harmless little VT.

First it makes sense because you're a dangerous player who needs to be eliminated, but then it doesn't make sense because you're a harmless little VT. Which is it? You're contradicting yourself.

Evil is like totalscumpleasedie (unless they softclaimed cop earlier, which I'm thinking that they did, and I sorta want that confirmed/deconfirmed now, given that we're awaiting a potential counterclaim), and still haven't really provided the reads that they promised.

...well, in truth, it's not so much that they're scum as in that they have an incredibly low content level and has been making promises to provide more that they have yet to cash in.

I read bull like

this

OKAY HERE'S THE DEAL.

I promise I'll read up when we hit into night because I

have

to make a decision one way or another. (Do not press this

unless

you know what's bad for you)

and I bloody well expect more than has been provided so far today.

Damnit, Maenara, I was hoping nobody would point this out. I read 1180 as Doctor crumbs, to be honest, so good job thrusting that into the limelight. If Scum didn't notice it the first time, they sure noticed it now.

Wake, since your insistent on Loran being scum, what is the motivation? What would scum gain from false claiming? A single mislynch? It would direct the cop to check Loran, ABR and Sten rather than divert attention.

I've been thinking about this, and here's what I've concluded. If Scum did indeed notice the crumbs from Evil Regals, they probably would have thought that she was a PR -- but they wouldn't have known which one. When the day started and Evil Regals was still alive, I started wondering why. I eventually concluded that Scum most likely thought she could have been either the Cop or the Doctor, and they didn't want to risk night-killing her because she could have been the Cop and their kill could have been blocked by a Doctor who also noticed the crumbs.

Loran claims Cop, but not right away. Evil Regals also hasn't posted since the claim, so she hasn't had a chance to potentially counter-claim yet. RainbowDash pushes hard for the Cop to claim and backs it up with lots of fancy math and numbers to make it sound extra convincing. I should point out that I watched her do the exact same thing as Scum in Adventure Time Mafia. (Yes, I spectated that game before I joined the site.)

Do you see what I'm getting at? If Loran is lying, he isn't sacrificing himself just so Scum can eliminate Wake. He's sacrificing himself so that Scum can eliminate Wake

and flush out both the Cop and the Doctor.

A worthwhile gambit, to be sure.

I say that the correct play here is to lynch Wake. If he flips Town, we lynch both Loran and RainbowDash. 3/4 of the Scum team gone.

And for the love of God, Evil Regals,

don't say a goddamn thing.

[Skullduggery]

Good. That's L-1. I'll hammer, but I'll give everyone a couple hours to get in final thoughts and whatever. Speak now or forever hold your peace.

[Skullduggery]

Loran, all I have to say is that you had better have a damn good explanation for this.

[Skullduggery]

@Skull - I am still trying to forget that game, there is one game in over five years that was moderated more poorly. Its just the perfect example of "what not to do" over so many mod things, literally I have slowly been working on a "common mod error" type article for a long time and that game works as an example for nearly every single "never do this" thing.

Sorry if I brought up any unpleasant memories, but I felt I had to point it out. Your insistence that the Cop should step forward in this game looks alarmingly similar to your insistence that a massclaim was a good idea in Adventure Time Mafia. It puts me on edge and makes me think that you and Loran could be Scum buddies who devised the theory that I highlighted at the bottom of 1512.

Lorenth, you SHOULD NOT say who you targeted. The doctor will protect you and you'll live another day. Plus, it just tells scum who is innocent and that innocent person will be killed. We will keep this up for a day or so then reval everyone. Unless of course we get a guilty. But my plan is to follow the cop. As long as we keep our doc from claiming, we are all right.

You're overlooking something important: What if the Doc is just as suspicious of Loran as I am and ends up protecting someone else? If Loran really is the Cop, he

lied about his results.

He has given us no reason to trust him. But if he says that another player is innocent, maybe the Doc will be more inclined to protect that person instead. Or maybe Scum will kill that person instead of our "Cop" Loran.

If Loran claims who he investigated, that will leave not one, but two potential kills for Scum -- either of which could be blocked by the Doc. I don't know about you, but I approve of any course of action that keeps Scum guessing and improves their chances of being cock-blocked by the Doc. (Doc-blocked, you could say.)

I'm having trouble seeing scum trying to force a counter-wagon onto their partner. Maybe they are both scum and they decided they'd rather have BP, I don't know. But Aptil doesn't make sense as scum to me right now.

Eh, maybe it's more plausible than you think. If you were Scum and you had to choose between BoroPhil and Aptil, which one would you rather keep and which one would you rather throw under the bus? A team is only as strong as its weakest member.

The pony is right. The information regarding the identity of the target of my check will be made available on a need-to-know basis. If said person is in danger of being lynched I will intervene.

See my response to jmo above.

Wake might still be scum. He didn't provide any real material on Day1, I recall him asking for people to convince him more than actually giving reads + all the bullshit. I realize that Wake wasn't a very good target for my gambit, I initially wanted to direct it at ABR. Oh well.

I still think we should lynch either Brian, Sven or ABR.. unless people actually want to lynch Wake, which I'd be down for. I'm just dying to know his alignment after all this bullcrapa which I take full responsibility for.

I'm still having a lot of trouble understanding exactly what the heck you were hoping to accomplish here, so please take me through your thought process. I don't believe you when you say that you only did it to get reactions. Wake was very close to being lynched. What if I had just hammered him instead of announcing my intention to do so? What if he had flipped Town? How would you have explained yourself tomorrow? Why would you -- our alleged Cop -- deliberately lie about an investigation and put yourself in such a dangerous situation? For "reactions"?

What were you

really

trying to do?

About the Evil Regals supposed breadcrumbs, a doc doesn't need breadcrumbs so that post looks really weird.

A fair point. How do you interpret Evil Regals' 1180 then?

Also Loran, you should investigate me tonight if I survive lynch, no downside, either you catch scum on me or you can stop a likely day 3 misslynch. That has to be a good play.

Stop asking the Cop to investigate you. The Cop's main goal is to find Scum, not clear Town. If you're Town, you don't want the Cop to investigate you because finding Scum is much more important that confirming your innocence.

Skull is hard to pin. It feels like mostly question posting and no direction. My guess on SK, since people are doing it. Just a hunch, not someone i want to lynch.

Uh-huh. How is this any different from how I normally play?

Yes, I had a strong feeling that Wake was town.

Who said that Wake was Town? Loran just said that he didn't investigate Wake. We still don't know Wake's alignment.

God, you are

so

Scum.

Point being that I'd said Evil needed pressure 'cause she'd promised reads and reading and whatnot late in D1 after a metric ton of lurking, and her few meagre posts D2 hadn't been enough to clear her of that. Also, so not buying the Doctor thing that RBD said; it anything, she was softclaiming cop with the "I have my reasons for Wake being town but totes won't be revealing them" crap (how would the doc even know that?), and seeing as we now know who the cop is, that makes it pretty clear that she's been scumming it up.

Where did she say that?

If Evil Regals is Scum pretending to be the Cop, what would she have to gain from employing such a strategy?

[Skullduggery]

Evil did this here scummy bull:

Also wake is town for reasons being withheld at the moment

which really makes no sense as anything but groupscum fakesoftclaiming cop.

Oh, I must have missed that. Hmmm.

Okay, Evil Regals, forget what I said earlier about not saying a goddamn thing. Start talking, sister. Do you intend to counter-claim Loran? If not, why did you leave Cop crumbs?

@Skull What if the person I checked is the doc? I don't see any advantages to that.

I thought I could use Wake's ego to my advantage and get him to claim scum.

Regarding people not trusting me, I sacrificed trust to try to get town another scum following my "unsuccessful" check by a) reaction testing my target and b) drawing a fake claim that I was confident in being able to combat credibility-wise.

Sigh. I still think that this is a really reckless risk for a Cop to take. I'm not totally convinced that you're legit, but I'll roll with it for now.

If the Doc dies, will that be your cue to tell us your investigation results?

[Skullduggery]

A recent game just ended and I don't see Wake being scum here. It's along with the fact he used a gambit here which he didn't use there. I was leaning town on him due to that.

What gambit are you referring to?

I'm not going to explain my "possible" cop claims because if I do it will be dismissed as WIFOM.

Don't care. I want to hear it anyway.

6) Skull mentions to Albert that my alignment isn't certain—which is correct in the eyes of the rest—and that Albert is "SO Scum." (Reading this, I wonder if she's also uncertain about every other player, including Loranthaceae.)

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. If you have a question for me, ask it.

First it will be said WIFOM and secondly if I do have a main on this site I will most likely have to reveal myself to explain what I did -- which personally at this point I still would love to not expose my main.

So you're an alt? So what? I don't see how that's relevant to this game.

trying to out your innocent result is scummy. plain and simple. being skeptical of an early cop claim without a counter in a 20 player game is scummy. what people think of your claim is irrelevant at this point, and imo, doubters and naysayers are putting those thoughts out there for a push against you at a later date.

So you're saying that it's scummy to object when one of our PRs lies about his results in a harebrained scheme that could have easily resulted in two mislynches (one on his fake guilty target and one on himself)? Is it Towny to just shrug our shoulders and accept it when another player lies to us? You're confusing "scummy" with "skeptical." I don't know about you, but I think a healthy dose of skepticism is a good thing in a game like this.

Yes, I have begrudgingly resigned myself to following Loran and regarding him as the Cop, but saying that it's scummy to have doubts about his claim after the stunt he pulled just feels like needless mud-slinging.

[Skullduggery]

I did attempt to draw a NK by dropping fake crumbs which is what I attempted to do here and it's scary that Lora caught that and then decided to claim.

What do you mean when you say that it was scary? Scary in what way?

skull: not sure if you wanted a response, but I don't have any issue with a "healthy" dose of skepticism. I don't find it healthy, however, when people attempt to fear monger and cast a pall of paranoia over us in the face of evidence which leads to a logical conclusion.

Is this what you think I was trying to do?

You said you weren't certain about my alignment, so I was wondering if you felt certain/uncertain about Loranthaceae and his claim, as well as everyone else.

I'll believe Loran's claim for now. No, I'm not

certain

that he's the Cop, but Mafia isn't a game built on certainty.

You also mention that Albert is "SO Scum," meaning you believe he's guilty, and I'd like to know if there's anyone else currently in that category.

I don't know your alignment. Loran admits that he didn't actually investigate you and one of the first things that Albert says is, "Yes, I had a strong feeling that Wake was town" in 1562. Nobody said that you were Town. The claimed Cop never said that you were Town. By saying, "Phew, I knew he was Town!" Albert just admitted that he knows your alignment -- information that no Town player should have at this point.

Of course, that's just the most recent development. I've wanted that slot dead for a long time now. Albert is my biggest Scum read, and no one else even comes close.

[Skullduggery]

slips are a horrible form of scumhunting. it assumes that scum is playing sub optimally. please stop. no one "slips".

WHY DO PEOPLE ALWAYS SEE SLIPS WHEN THERE AREN'T ANY!

Oh, for fuck's sake. I repeat:

Of course, that's just the most recent development. I've wanted that slot dead for a long time now.

Don't act like that's the only reason I want Albert dead. If that's what you think, you haven't been paying attention.

[Skullduggery]

Concerning Evil, I'd still appreciate it if people would go along with lynching her, but seeing as this doesn't seem to be a favoured route, I suppose I'll be willing to acquiesce to an investigation for now. Like I said earlier, her crumbing seems like groupscum trying for an ill-timed fake-claim, so I guess it'll be much the same result, in the end.

Are you unsatisfied with her explanation in 1657?

What do you mean by "it'll be much the same result, in the end"?

Okay, so, first of all - What the hell, Lora? Wasn't the plan to investigate Evil? Besides, what's the point of investigating ABR if what we're suspecting him of is being the SK?

Eh? People think Albert is the Serial Killer? When did this become a popular opinion? I thought we wanted to lynch him because he's Scum.

[Skullduggery]

both ABR and I are experienced players, pushing in tandem against a day 1 scum lynch is sub-optimal.

In your experience, is this always the case or have you seen exceptions?

If this is always the case, then when Albert flips Scum, what (if anything) will that tell you about Sven?

Just completed a scum win where the active people all murdered each other and the "meh" players just kinda sat in the back.

Which category would you say that Albert falls into?

Which category would you say that

you

fall into?

[Skullduggery]

Mmm. Don_Johnson could potentially be the SK, but at this point in the game, I can almost guarantee that he isn't Scum. So there's that, at least.

Got anything interesting to share with us today, Loran?

Anyways, that kinda takes out everyone that everyone else was suspecting. That leaves me to be today's mislynch. Lol

Offhand, I'd say that JacobSavage is the most universally suspected person left, not you. Why was your immediate response to think that you're the most likely to be lynched today?

Who are your top Scum reads at the moment, jmo?

the only reason i can see for these kills is a scum team that tries to find doctor crumbs.

they dont target strong players.

Who would you consider to be the "strong players" of this game?

You've played as Scum before, right? Which is the bigger priority -- eliminating strong players or eliminating Town PRs?

[Skullduggery]

doc protects lora. lora investigates the scummy scummy scummy evil regals.

Loran, I really hope you didn't investigate Evil Regals last night. If you did, then

here's

the reason why Scum killed her.

Potential Doctor crumbs + Potentially screwing up the Cop's investigation = A kill that actually makes sense

[Skullduggery]

What's this? Antihero isn't paying attention to the game? What a shocking turn of events.

DJ is a good bet for whatever faction killed Wake. Really a player who Wake called scum is the only one who would have any reason to kill the player who after a fake guilty reiterated a VT claim.

Serial Killer DJ would also make sense for the Mastin kill when you consider what Mastin said at the end of day one.

Interesting. I'll put this on the back burner for now. Catching the Serial Killer isn't our top priority at the moment.

Rach, Titus, Sven, DJ - I checked one of you last night and it came up guilty, not fucking around this time. I'd like a complete list of your reads before I announce today's lynch. Thank you.

-your friendly neighbourhood cop
LH

You'd better not be lying again. Trust is not something that can so easily be won back.

doc protects lora. lora investigates the scummy scummy scummy evil regals.

Loran, I really hope you didn't investigate Evil Regals last night. If you did, then

here's

the reason why Scum killed her.

Potential Doctor crumbs + Potentially screwing up the Cop's investigation = A kill that actually makes sense

Yeah that makes perfect sense.

Y'know, except Evil crumbed

cop

, not

doctor

.

Okay? Why are you telling me this? I'm trying to look at the situation from the Scum team's point of view.

All discussion should stop now. It's Better that we lynch lorths guilty after the people in her group give reads. This keeps scum in the dark with lorths investigations and the identity of the doctor.

Are you serious? What incentive could Town possibly have to stop talking just because the Cop says that he has a guilty on someone? We have plenty of time before the deadline. We might as well chat a little before we hear Loran's results.

I highly doubt that the Doctor is going to accidentally reveal themselves, and unless they do something stupid tonight, Loran is almost guaranteed to survive until tomorrow and get another investigation result. Town is in a good position right now. There is no reason why we shouldn't take advantage of the time we have left.

to add to that, NK analysis is WIFOM. Youre trying to pin the NK on Aptil? uh. sven, I think you're scum.

So vote for him.

You've got to remember, there isn't one scum left. So even if Aptil IS scum, she/he has two other people to converse with about the NK, making it less likely that they would be complete newbs.

How does this make it less likely for the Scum team to be comprised of new players?

DJ's explanation makes sense, though I'll still argue that Evil's crumbs were way more cop oriented, and that it'd've made much more sense if SK had killed Evil, while mafia killed Wake, under the assumption that they were targeting one another.

Why would it make more sense for the SK to kill the player who left Cop crumbs? The SK has nothing to fear from the Cop.

After Loran finishes then I have another theory I'll share but I don't want to stop the momentum Loran currently has.

Why wait? Tell us. Loran's "momentum" isn't going anywhere.

[Skullduggery]

Yeah but I don't really think anyone but you have managed to read it as doc crumbs.

Then why did you bring it up?

Loren should just give the result, as he has said that much everything is more or less compromised at this point.

RachMarie hasn't posted yet.

[Skullduggery]

Rach is L-1, by the way. I'd like to ISO her to see if I can find anything, so if we can hold off on hammering for at least an hour or two, I'd really appreciate it.

Skull, some fucking direction please

Who says I don't have a direction? Just because you can't see it, that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

I always know what I'm doing. Even when I don't.

I'm severely believing JacobSavage is town

Why?

[Skullduggery]

RachMarie's ISO:

Pushed on HGH (Loran) early on.

336 - "I was planning on voting for HGH long before skull was in the picture as a major wagon."

Mentions RainbowDash regularly in 334, 582, and 597, but never really takes the time to actively converse with him until 882.

Aside from Wake (whose alignment is now common knowledge), Sven is the only other player she calls Town (702).

Starts casting suspicion on jmo in 961 and 964, but doesn't actually vote for him.

Hardcore suspicion-mongering of Loran after Loran admitted that his Wake investigation was fabricated.

Pushes on JacobSavage in 1579 for pretty much the same reasons that she pushed on jmo earlier, except this time, she backs it up with a vote.

-------------------------

Conclusions:

I was expecting to get a little bit more out of that, but eh.

The jmo/JacobSavage thing is the most interesting tidbit, I think. Rach suspected both of them for basically the same reason, but Jacob was worth a vote while jmo was not. Thinking jmo is a good candidate for her partner while Jacob is probably not-Scum.

Lots of suspicion on Loran, which means that a Scum flip from Rach should erase any last trace of doubt about Loran's role and alignment.

I'm a little wary of her interactions with RainbowDash. The only time RainbowDash mentions Rach at all is 895.

Calling Sven a solid Town read makes sense. If he really is Town, he's likely NK-bait, so Rach could have been setting herself up for gaining some Town cred when he died and flipped.

[Skullduggery]

tl;dr

A Scum flip from RachMarie likely means that Loran, JacobSavage, and Sven are not Scum. It also means that jmo and RainbowDash are potential partners.

I'll hammer, but I would like to get something of substance from Brian Skies first. He's been Captain Prod Dodge all day today, and it would be nice to get some reads or something from him first before we end the day.

[Skullduggery]

Not even upset. Maenara played like a champ.

[Skullduggery]

By the way, what happened with Sven? His ban had something to do with this game, didn't it?

What could I have done?

You could've played the game. Really, I have no respect for what you did. You should've replaced out on Day 1.

Ditto. I figured you were lurking Scum and you thought that replacing out would doom your slot, which is why you clung to it for so long. Now that I know that you're Town, I look back at the way you played and wonder whether you ever actually cared about this game or not. It's like you didn't even try.

By hanging around for so long without actually making an effort to play, all you did was make yourself mislynch bait.

Maybe I should try incorporating a little bit of abrasiveness into my gameplay...

You're already abrasive.