Open 557: Deck of Stacks [Game Over]

[talah]

/first!

VOTE: penguin_alien

Townbloc:

Paschendale
talah

[talah]

Actually the goon cop did have me tending toward scum taking at least 2 picks, possibly 3. But it sounds like you two have played this setup before, so you'd probably have a better idea (and represent it correctly if you're town).

Oh hai Desp, didn't actually realise you were in the list till you posted. Pinky-truce on shitfighting, alignment-independent, mmkay? :P

ed: I gotta re-read the setup

[talah]

I think possibly JOAT/rolecop/daytalk if you were leaving the traitor unrecruited. BP really only protects one member from vigging compared to the joat which confounds the roleblocker situationally (and possibly the bodyguard).

A lot depends on the team too - daytalk can be really really useless to a scumteam who don't communicate, but funnily I think this type of scumteam would be just as likely to pick it as a scumteam that would use it.

Eh - theory. I'm waiting for everyone to post, not seeing much that's pinging me just yet.

[talah]

I'm waiting for everyone to post, not seeing much that's pinging me just yet.

Judging from your first post i thought you'd be townhunting, did you miss the part where we got a scumread on you based on your first post entirely?
Re: What would you pick as scum? I think i'd pick nothing, not going to elaborate on why as that would give scum ideas on what to do if they did the same thing. I can think of the value on asking what they'd do as that could help us find what the scum picked after some flips, but not the why, so I don't know why everyone's discussing that.

-Saki

Yeah actually after I posted that I did think that if I wasn't recruiting the traitor I'd probably leave the daytalk out to drop the extra PR. I don't know why it makes any difference whether we discuss it or not though.

I think basically you're the only one who found my first post scummy. Not sure what there is to townhunt on yet, unless you think I couldn't see either of Desp or p_a having this conversation as scum independent or together. Totally null.

Dem undisclosed hydras though. Hi Saki.

[talah]

I'm somewhat surprised there is serious discussion on page one. My newbie game wasn't anything like this.

Honestly this does seem a bit atypical, but I'm liking it so far.

[talah]

Not sure what there is to townhunt on yet, unless you think I couldn't see either of Desp or p_a having this conversation as scum independent or together. Totally null.

Go and re-read what i quoted and then get back to me. Why does it matter if we're the only ones who found your first post scummy? And I already explained why discussing why you'd pick X over Y is not a good idea. If you still don't get it, go back and re-read my post and tell me what confuses you about it.

I'm not all that easily confused, Saki. So if a miscommunication has occurred perhaps you would like to clarify what your point is, since I clearly don't get it.

Scum have already picked their roles - it's not like we need to be worried about giving them ideas for the next game. Theory discussion is okay to an extent as long as it's not misdirection, and I'm not seeing that in what's transpired so far.

Also, what undisclosed hydras?

Saki has a main account and is signing posts, so I'm presuming Katen is a hydra of Saki and someone else.

[talah]

According to talah you are a hydra of Saki and Koromo.

How do you know who the other head is?

Why are you townreading Katen?

UNVOTE: penguin_alien
VOTE: tn5421

[talah]

Then what was the point of asking "What undisclosed hydras?" if you already knew what Saki and Koromo were the Katen hydra?

Why would you try to pretend you didn't know what I was talking about?

I'm pretty sure you just scumslipped and outed yourself and Katen as scum. The third may as well self-vote because this game is over.

FYI for future games, OMGUS isn't a scumtell - it's something dumb which gets used to push RVS along.

[talah]

You looked over it shortly *after* saying "What undisclosed hydras?"

The why say this *after* you already knew Katen was a hydra?

According to talah

you are a hydra of Saki and Koromo.

[talah]

Ugh. I've been playing Smite lately. Also time to do housework.

Your explanation better be watertight. I'd also like to know your position on OMGUS as a scumtell, while you're at it.

[talah]

Popping in to say that I'd be just as happy with a Katen lynch as tn. Saki came in really hot and heavy about his post-2 "serious vote" and it seemed over the top to me. His actions since then appear to be instructing people to trawl previous posts for information which isn't even there and to read into things which haven't even had time to eventuate. There's a sense of unnecessary urgency and aggression which I'm not reading as town.

Apologies for the brevity.

[talah]

Why does my explanation need to be watertight.

And by that I suppose you mean why would you even need to answer?

You claim no knowledge of undisclosed hydras.
I point out that Saki is probably in a hydra.
You state that according to me, Katen is a hydra of Saki and Koromo.

I never mentioned Koromo, so what did you mean by saying that

I

said that the members of the hydra were Saki and Koromo, when your defence is that

you'd

only just found out? It was you that just "found" the information, so why in the world would you say that it was me that pointed out the members? Surely

you

looked into it and discovered the other member in that case, and that's what you would have said.
It feels incredibly like a distancing attempt where you had knowledge of the members from interacting together in a QT during setup.

Your OMGUS makes you more suspicious but doesn't necessarily mean you're scum.

I find it completely null. Town sometimes hold back on expressing suspicion on someone who's expressing suspicion of them just because it's a

reeeallly

easy thing for scum to raise as a scumtell. But really it's only usefulness is in garnering reactions.

Why do you find OMGUS "suspicious", and why do you think scum are more likely to OMGUS than town?

It doesn't sit right with me to see someone not understanding what is going on when we only have 3 pages of content.

Describe to me, in detail, how I didn't understand what was going on. I can go into blow-by-blows for you if you like.

Katen lays down a post-2-of-the-game "serious vote", obviously looking for a reaction
I patently ignore it because it's ridiculous and engage in a discussion which seems more constructive to me in getting a feel for other players' motivations
Katen returns, apparently butthurt because he hasn't been able to do the "big reveal" on why the vote was "serious", and attacks the discussion
I ask for clarification on what his problem is
He tells me to go re-read the fucking thread

What did I miss?

--
breaking this up because walls

[talah]

Ok so I see no one else noticed it, the thing that pinged me about talah's first post was that he put down a townbloc of himself and the IC, which if he's town it should be obvious why he's there and it should be obvious to everyone why the IC is there, and everyone's townblocs will look the same (Yourself + the IC) so it felt like it was an unnecessary addition to his first post that he made for the sake of making himself look town rather than anything.

talah's post afterwards haven't gotten any better, I don't get why he cares about who noticed the scummyness in his first post rather than why we're scumreading him and never bothers to ask where the scumread came from.

And hark, the Big Reveal (TM) cometh.

So you say that me placing an RVS vote and identifying the two people I know to be town is a scumtell?
And then pat yourself on the back for being the one who "noticed the scummyness" and scumread me further for not giving a fuck why the second post of the game is serious?

There's literally nothing that can be even remotely considered alignment indicative in my first post. It's the first fucking post of the game! And you expect me to ask you "uh durr why you scumreading me for my post please Katen?"

This has got to be the weakest attempt at pushing a game forward that I've ever encountered from town if that's the case, so it's a good thing that you're very likely scum.

I explained why it was bad to discuss the reasons to pick X over Y as scum, not what they would pick, and I explained why it was bad too, it had nothing to do with "scum already picked so it doesn't matter", and more with "if scum picked X, you're giving them ideas", this was clearly stated in my post yet he decided to overlook it and ask me again about it, again it was a pointless question that I felt it was there for the sake of being there as even tn noticed it in my post at the very least.

Your explanation is that it would give scum ideas of what to do if they picked a similar setup to any of the half dozen setups we were bandying about?
How is that advantageous to scum in a different game, with different players, with unrevealed PRs, on Day 1, in RVS?

Then he pegs tn for "knowing" the hydra heads when we've both have been signing our posts and both of us have posted, which seems like he's looking for a reason to pin someone down.

Well I'm glad you said "pegs", because I have currently no reason to think that I'm not 100% accurate.
You find it natural that he attributed the discovery of your heads, to me?

On a side note, our hydra may have been undisclosed pre-game, but it's pretty clear who's posting what, why would he be mad about undisclosed hydras after the heads have posted considering it's still early in the game? Unless he had a reason to wanting to have known who was in the hydra pre-game.

Generally when a person says "Dem", it means they're being

lighthearted

, not

mad

. It makes no difference to me whether you're in a hydra or not, I was just surprised to see you in the game and the OP didn't list hydra members.

[talah]

...Why so cryptic Pim? What part of its purpose? Are waiting for Desperado's response?

Preview Edit: Obviously because I have absolutely no scum hunting skills so I wait around reading he game as it progresses and vote for people who seem scummy, such as Pim here. UNVOTE: VOTE: Pim

I really don't understand how Pim is scummy for what he just posted in 60. You came in and claimed lurker which I didn't like either.
And now it appears you're trying to write off any obligation to need to explain your reads beyond "I'm terrible at scumhunting".

If I wanted to play a game with lurkers who didn't scumhunt, I'd create my own thread and have the playerlist consisting of one player. If you're town some effort would be appreciated.

Town win by sharing ideas and trying to trip the scum up with active posting, not mulling secretly in the dark.

Saki might disagree with you here. Both aggressive scum, and active scum, are things. Although I agree with the sentiment that lurking is anti-town for the most part.

2. TN is definitely looking like town. The inexperience is adorable, but the attempts look genuine.

I don't know why there is an assumption of inexperience (aside from join date which is MS-specific), nor why inexperience means he wouldn't play reasonably competently as scum. I'll cite Road to Rome as evidence that some newbs absolutely paste experienced players.

--
yeah so I'm not going to spam thoughts anymore tonight but assume I'm caught up for the sake of the game.
I think I saw a couple of questions reading along, if they're important I'll get back to them (or point them out please) - tia.

[talah]

@Finglove: The effects of laziness towards deep reading the first time through, I did mostly the same thing in Newbie 1489, bandwagon until I felt like rereading the thread in which I got my bit more conclusive reads, and the avoidance of walls.

Preview Edit:

@talah: *59. Anyways, trying to hate on my play style? Did you know that not everyone is a superactive person actively hunting every post, and there are actually sheep? *Surprised Gasp of Sarcasm*

Sheeping's fine in my mind (I guess that's what you're indicating you were doing), but it needs to be supported by reasoning.
If you (as town) were to sheep scum onto a town wagon without reasoning, then I wouldn't have the slightest idea if your motivations were genuine, and you'd become an easy setup for scum.

[talah]

(can't link in order to maintain integrity of hydra, sorry).

Well it's really to maintain the integrity of your account, isn't it? As I've never encountered you before and Saki's not exactly a secret.

[talah]

Popping in to say that I'd be just as happy with a Katen lynch as tn. Saki came in really hot and heavy about his post-2 "serious vote" and it seemed over the top to me. His actions since then appear to be instructing people to trawl previous posts for information which isn't even there and to read into things which haven't even had time to eventuate.

There's a sense of unnecessary urgency and aggression which I'm not reading as town.

Apologies for the brevity.

1. We're making early pressure moves in order to make new information appear. Why is this alignment indicative?
2. Do you have any other scumreads besides us and tn? It feels like all your scumreads are derived from the general impression of the gamestate.

Also, what's your read on penguin?

-Koromo

1. A pressure move isn't a pressure move if the pressure is clearly not received. The fact that you waited so long for *me* of all people to respond to something which I didn't particularly find important (aside from your own follow-up which I'm seeing as scummy), makes the "pressure move" a bit redundant, don't you think?
2. How many scumreads would you expect me to have at this stage? I'm starting to get hints and tickles but frankly I'm pretty comfortable thinking that you and tn are buddying each other and acting oddly enough that I'm really only looking for the other scum.

Penguin I'd be looking for certain things in reading her but she hasn't really laid enough down that I can tell either way.
Desp I haven't seen a scumgame from (he might disagree due to a weird multi-faction bastard game we played) but am tending town for now; he seems pretty fluid rather than mechanical.

If you ask me why I included Desp I am going to facepalm so hard and I *hate* faceplam.

[talah]

You find it natural that he attributed the discovery of your heads, to me?

I already answered this question, find it on your own or deal with it.

You should also stop selectively dodging questions during early discussion phase if you don't want to be scumread by people.

At least you answered the question I guess in 103, even though it feels like you're dodging as many conclusive statements as possible.

Uhhmm, why are you answering questions addressed to Katen?
If you want to answer questions from me, why aren't you answering what I asked in Post 92, which are the follow-ups to my concerns?

You expect town to be as conclusive as possible and you find it scummy if they're not? That's the most perfectly scummy misnomer.

Like I said if you have a question which I missed, point it out. But don't expect me to dance to your organ if you won't even answer what I'm asking. You and Katen are the *only two players* insisting that I go back and re-read the thread, and each time it's been to avoid answering something which I asked of you.

Now I'm going to apologise for spamming for the *second* time tonight.

[talah]

And by that I suppose you mean why would you even need to answer?

You claim no knowledge of undisclosed hydras.
I point out that Saki is probably in a hydra.
You state that according to me, Katen is a hydra of Saki and Koromo.

I have already answered this.

Quote the post where you answered.

It feels incredibly like a distancing attempt where you had knowledge of the members from interacting together in a QT during setup.

It feels like you're scumpainting me you dumbass.

Why would I want to scumpaint you? Now answer my question on why OMGUS is scummy.

Describe to me, in detail, how I didn't understand what was going on.

1: Your inability to determine the author of signed posts.
2: Your response in 27 is not sufficient to answer 26, Katen calls you out on it. You deliberately ignore and/or refuse to understand Katen's explanation post at 26 in almost literally every post you've made since then, when its not a hard concept to grasp.
3: I essentially quoted 32 when i said 'talah says katen is hydra of saki and koromo, since there is no way you didn't actually know that at this point.
4: Your OMGUS at 37 is cute. Relate to point one. I answered this in 38 & 66. Stop making me answer the same fucking question because you won't stop "Pretending to not understand".
5: 40 & 43 was all about you throwing dirt on me since you didn't have a real argument. You tried to scumpaint Katen and I and tried to tell me how to play. Again, answered in 41 &50 (Would be post 49 but that multiquote system fail).
6: 45, in which you attempt to pressure me for evidence. See point 5.
7: Called you out on your dodging the question again from 32. Katen did the same in 58.
8: 80 comes close to being an outright lie, the information is there, you simply refuse to read and/or understand. Please see all above points.
9: I unvoted you in 83 because despite my personal dislike of you, the above evidence just wasn't enough (at the time) for me to justify keeping my vote on you.
10: 92, part one, see point 1 and 2. Also this post, because this post as a whole is in response to this post. You should also stop lying, as Katen did state the reason for the 'serious' vote.
11: 95, your reaction to being voted is what makes you scummy in my opinion, it doesn't matter how much shit you fling at other people. Unless you want to bus your scumpartner, I am down for that. quote 2 you deliberately misunderstanding the quoted text. quote 3 was answered at least 3 times by the above points. quote 4 also a completely unrelated point. But please, continue to ignore questions asked almost 20 posts ago so you can misrepresent quotes.
12: 103 continues on your streak of ignoring questions until you can twist the intent behind them to suit your purposes. But please continue to pretend that your questions haven't been answered almost a half a dozen different times by now.

I am literally never going to click on all of those links. While I appreciate you've put work into it, there is no way that I can sensibly respond to this block of discredit and links. How about you use your own words to express why you find me scummy.

In light of all this bullshit, I feel safer putting my vote back on you and keeping it there. VOTE: talah

Can you explain to me what "all this bullshit" is supposed to mean. Is it what you just posted? Because aside from that, all I'm after is CLEAR answers to my questions.

There's no way that I can address what you just posted, except how I just have.

[talah]

No problem, agreed. I'll just point out that the "mister confirmed town" statement appears to be quotefail on mlearn's part, since my Post 80 is entirely unrelated to the contents of his quote:

Popping in to say that I'd be just as happy with a Katen lynch as tn. Saki came in really hot and heavy about his post-2 "serious vote" and it seemed over the top to me. His actions since then appear to be instructing people to trawl previous posts for information which isn't even there and to read into things which haven't even had time to eventuate. There's a sense of unnecessary urgency and aggression which I'm not reading as town.

Apologies for the brevity.

[talah]

Minor prod-dodge. I'll be back in roughly 24 hours.

Hopefully the break is proving informative.

[talah]

Okay, going to try to get back onto this game, which is actually making my head hurt thinking about it.

@Katengecchi:
First bolded point: I agree with this, Talah has been attacking me since I made 34 containing my reads at the time. I said 'according to talah' because it was his/her prompt that had me searching through your posts. I felt like he knew and wanted me to find out for myself.

So you did actually answer this. Just didn't address it to me when I asked pretty unequivocally in Post 43. Unsurprising that I missed it.
I thought there could be only one explanation which would be something like you were halfway through typing the sentence from your 34 and then went to check, and then completed the sentence mid-stream.

This is pretty rich (to Pim) though:

By being cryptic everyone learns not to trust you and anything you might have to say in the future.

Considering this, earlier in the post:

Sorry, not seeing how I'm supposed to care. If you won't share info with me then I won't share info with you.

I'm going to indulge in a little anecdote about my mafiascum history. In my first ever newbie game, perhaps 10 or 15 posts in from me, I called out the scumteam because the more experienced mafia member -out of nowhere- decided to *defend* the newb-scum. Then I put it out of my mind based on subsequent posting from town telling me that it was ridiculous, some of them calling me scummy and others calling me a derpy noob. I was

right

, and I haven't felt that same level of confidence for a similar reason, since then until now. You might think this is an aside, but gut is a large part of how I play mafia. And being able to articulate that gut is how I attempt to demonstrate I'm town.

And while I acknowledge that I've also been wrongwrongwrong, I'm not seeing much at least yet which would cause me to unvote you, except my own misgivings.

That said,
UNVOTE: tn5421
As I have things to do before the day is out.

If I missed anything you actually want me to answer which doesn't involve an hour of counterargument, let me know.
I'll likely be giving SeeEmpty a precis of what I found scummy about you and Katen tonight, based on what I've seen as him scumhunting, loosely following along.

Aside from that I don't intend to engage in extended battles with you. If you want to talk, let's talk.

[talah]

Swooping in to someone's defense when someone is pushing on them is a very common form of buddying. It's something I see all the time among good scum players and it's hard as hell to actually detect it when you're the one being buddied. So yeah, given all the evidence, there's a very good chance it is buddying. Why do you think it's not?

Not asked, but answered. Because there's no reason to push on an IC.

And hark, the Big Reveal (TM) cometh.

So you say that me placing an RVS vote and identifying the two people I know to be town is a scumtell?

And then pat yourself on the back for being the one who "noticed the scummyness"

and scumread me further for not giving a fuck why the second post of the game is serious?

Link where Saki did this. And please explain WHY said scumread on you is coming from scum motivation, as opposed to town motivation.

Where Saki patted herself on the back:

Ok so I see no one else noticed it

, the thing that pinged me about talah's first post was that he put down a townbloc of himself and the IC, which if he's town it should be obvious why he's there and it should be obvious to everyone why the IC is there, and everyone's townblocs will look the same (Yourself + the IC) so it felt like it was an unnecessary addition to his first post that he made for the sake of making himself look town rather than anything.

talah's post afterwards haven't gotten any better, I don't get why he cares about who noticed the scummyness in his first post rather than why we're scumreading him and never bothers to ask where the scumread came from.

And hark, the Big Reveal (TM) cometh.

Bolded for your convenience - it's quoted in the same post you quoted. Actually the whole quote could have been bolded. It seems really uncomfortable that you/her/whatever wait until Post 58 to come out with something which should have been pushed or addressed and moved on with to help with your (both of you) getting some kind of preliminary read.

It feels incredibly like a distancing attempt where you had knowledge of the members from interacting together in a QT during setup.

:facepalm:
I have a feeling you just townslipped here... however it also destroys your point on tn, If you look at the mod's first post in the "Dead" spoilerbox it says "Remember to invite people to the Dead

Private Topic

when updating this." Which makes me assume scum is also using the Private Topics instead of QTs, and the mod doesn't know the heads of this hydra either so we wouldn't have been able to post outside of hydra there either if we were scum, so tn still would have no knowledge of the hydra heads regardless.

I actually don't care about this unless you do something with it. If you feel I townslipped, I'm just wondering how you would have known the difference between the Private Topic and QT systems without trying to hide something anyway. If you want to call me town, at least follow it up with some assessment of the likelihood of me faking it as scum, since those are your two options.

I'm tempted to stop answering your ridiculous and uncohesive series of points against me just because it's likely to spark more of the same, and I'm really not enjoying being the centre of attention *again* like I was in NY 172, where a townfuck tunnelled me because I provoked him, and a stong-willed scum decided he would double-team, spurring the townfuck on.

And no, I'm not townreading you unless you start making sense.

Same goes for you as for TN, if you want to talk, we'll talk. If you want to tell me to go back and read the thread rather than just clarify what you're talking about when I ask, we're going to drown in shitfight.

FYI I do NOT read agression as town, unless it appears to have town motivation. I'm getting a strong feeling you want people to read you as town more than you want to actually do town things.

So you're not this Saki then. Interesting.

[talah]

Talah vs tn/katen are basically arguing on "serious vote", "undisclosed hydra", "setup discussion", "OMGUS", "answer my question", and in the end they're just telling each other to "show me where", showing laziness in reading the thread again. To me this is unnecessary and not progressing the game. This doesn't mean that I think they are not important. Alignment indicative wise, I still failed to see who is town or scum yet from their argument alone, but it'll help when we have more info later.

Your version is kind of it and I'll admit I've not read back through because I *actually* don't want to.
A couple of other things that really bugged me -from memory- was the way that TN asked Katen to scumhunt together with no apparent reason, and that they both backed off their pushes on me at virtually the same time.

I'm really not in the mood to go into more detail right now, but it feels like you're simplifying what I saw somewhat, whereas I think it's valid.
What I'm not hugely comfortable with is the fact that nobody except you, Paschendale and TN/Katen themselves are really saying *why* they think that the reads are either good or bad. And I really don't feel like engaging with anyone much right now.

You're in my prob-town bloc if you'll excuse what will obviously be interpreted as buddying. I think you're trying to figure out who's scum and who's town.

VOTE: beast
I don't think you can say that my vote on TN makes any sense without Katen as scum as well. You have them as town, and strong town at that. If you're town, I want to know how that makes sense to you.

Peng and Desp, I want to connect with you guys in the next day or two.
Lurkers, step up and give your opinions. I bite, but it's the non-infectious type if you're town.

[talah]

@talah

I don't see how Talah is scum at all. Their posts felt towny to me.


@Pasch:

What is the difference between undecided and null? Also, why Tomagachi over pim?

What do you make of this?

The part that was probably autocorrect, or the part that might be calling me town for towncred?
Frankly the easy townread of me gave me tingles but at that stage of the game - meh.

I'm voting beast now because he said he agreed with my logic, and immediately demonstrated that he didn't understand it. Also because he potentially wk's Katen (er.. WhiteKnight is wk - where you call town, town, because it makes you look good when they flip), otherwise it's defending Katen where I doubt Katen actually warrants defending.

I actually agree with TN that it's *possible* that none of us are scum, although that's not really where my head's at. Beast if scum, and both of TN and Katen town, has just created a nice dichotomy where he gets to either 1) lynch TN and have him flip town and say he was wrong so let's lynch Katen (or talah), or the Katen wagon goes through (which looks more likely) and he gets towncred for a townflip and can say he was right, so let's lynch TN. Otherwise it's just defending Katen.

Rather than trying to figure out levels of wifom, I'm relatively comfortable voting for beast while he's not making sense. We still have -- 9 days left?

What's your read on beast by the way, and what were you looking for in what you quoted?

(by the way, I'm pretty pronoun-agnostic because I don't think it's all that relevant to the game but I'm a bloke if it matters. Ether gave me this lovely avatar :) )

[talah]

I can elaborate on this now that NY 172 is over--this is a replay of the first day of that game where talah got run up for really weak arguments on account of how he reacted in part. Yes, talah was town there. So double no way in hell am I helping lynch him off what I've seen here.

I'm actually glad you ended up elaborating on this because ergm, in FEA I probably deserved to be lynched due to spending half the day shitfighting (and the marvellous self-vote capsrage-for-two-pages incident which I'm simultaneously ashamed of and humorous about). Even then from memory I don't think my wagon got above maybe seven or so votes? I was really in no danger of being lynched there in that phase of my play. And I'm constantly bemused in games that scum think I'm an easy mislynch, because I tried really really hard to force the lynch onto myself (or Luca) in the end in 172 just to preserve PRs. I still haven't been mislynched ever outside of a marathon (with Mollie-town Wisdom-scum Me-cop with a guilty on Wisdom heheheh).

That also presumably means that you know what I was looking for in you-town as I mentioned it in the dead thread. So unfortunately I'm a bit back to square one trying to read you, although it's nice to be playing with you rather than just passing by for a change.

I think I'm going to leave both TN and Katen to their devices right now and see what further "stuff" they feel like doing, as I don't think I have an objective view on the fracas. There are half a dozen other players I haven't really looked at properly yet.

Your biggest worry outside of those two right now?

[talah]

No that was a fucking hilarious post and I'm not even going to say why.

Katen if you don't simmer the fuck down and in quicktime I'm going to policy vote you myself without trying to read you further. I understand rage from experience but I can't get an objective read on you because I don't like the way you're saying things so I can't figure out where you're coming from. A lot of what you're saying looks like shitslinging, pure and simple.

I think TN and I have swallowed our pride and you need to do the same. Take VLA if you need it.


beast isn't town just because he defends you, and SeeEmpty isn't scum just for scumhunting on you. Town fencesit all the time - it's called thinking over the possibilities. I don't think he's avoiding giving his opinions, which would be the scum version of the fencesit.

[talah]

Sigh. If you're even interested, I can try to summarize it. Here goes

1. Easy push on low hanging fruit BC. 133,

"For not interested in scum hunting and lurking."

This is what scum do when they make pushes on easy targets - they use the things in their posting that are scummy on a surface level, but ignore the actual town motivation in their posts. When BC defended against it, he basically just kept repeating his points:

"What is that if that's not lurking?" "My reason is simple. Not contributing and lurking. This is as clear and concise as I can get."

. This is scummy because, as scum, he knows these things are objectively scummy and BC doesn't have a defense for it. So he keeps repeating it in order to make him look bad.

Then why is he continuing to ask beast questions which aren't related to lurking?
How is beast low hanging fruit given he claims to have been waiting for the other game of the same setup to finish so he could get into this one, and he's apparently posting without issue elsewhere? That sounds like he's ready to interact and defend himself. Ergo, not low hanging fruit.

2. Backpedaling on said read when questioned about it. 188 He makes a post with a bunch of accusations towards BC, which include

"You also have the exact same read as talah? How curious. How curious indeed!"

. This is pretty bullshit and I don't see why it's scummy, and when pressured about it he claims it had nothing to do with his read on BC, which is a dishonest response given the context.

I took that to mean he was also suspicious of Desp who did practically the same thing, although I might be wrong.

3. Overall, his pushes on beast and me just feel fake. When I asked him exactly ~what~ the scum motivation in beast's play was, he was never able to answer. This also ties into 2 - he knows beast's play isn't actually scum motivated and thus keeps dodging the question.

They feel fake to you - goodo. I can't exactly address your feelings.
In a similar vein - you can't represent that he knows something and have it mean anything except you're floating a theory. I disagree with your theory.

4. Deflective answers that don't address my actual points:
207

"Good attempt at scum painting though."

He doesn't explain how we're scum painting, he just tries to write off our accusation.

"3. That's what you think. Why not you see what he says before you start defending him?"

Mis-rep: we did.
There's more but those are the first two examples I can think of. Overall, there's a blatant pattern where he, as scum, thinks he can just write off suspicion by twisting our words around and misrepping us.

Didn't you accuse me of scumpainting? (Or was that TN?) I recognised the statement as sarcastic toward something which had been said before.
Misrep doesn't even

mean

anything in this context. Do you seriously think he's trying to flood you with posts which are lies so that the rest of town will only read the most recent and say "hmmm, if Katen did indeed not see what beast said before starting to defend him like SeeEmpty suggested he do, then I think Katen is probably scum". Scum aren't usually that subtle anyway. Like, they'll misrep, but it'll be about situations which are general and subjective, not something which can be directly and easily disproven.
I think he was saying that you were jumping the gun on townreading beast and hindering scumhunting on him with the supermegatown you laid down (followed by the attack on SeeEmpty, which by the way you haven't let up on as evidenced by this post I'm responding to).

5. I still think most of his posts are fence sitting, but you seem to disagree on that.

Looks like it.

There's more, smaller things but those are the main ones. Hope this explains it better

Much better and thank you for doing this.
However I'd like you to reconsider your read on beast (not to the extent of scumreading him, just to the extent of keeping an open mind), because he did WhiteKnight you as town pretty fucking hard.

[talah]

@ talah: If all three of you are actually town, what happens to your reads?

I'm going to need to take a bit of editorial liberty with your question to adequately answer this.

First off - I'd have to see both flips to be able to say with 100% certainty if that's the case, so I'm going to presume you're asking "If you decide that TN and Katen are more likely town than scum"

Secondly I don't have reads on everyone yet so I don't have a big picture framework in my mind yet and I've been kind of distracted by the early flurry of activity. I still have to take a look back and I'll do that tonight.

I was a bit concerned that you said we were in sync though, although I want to explain why. After the me/TN/Katen triscussion (or whatever you called it), I spent the next day mulling it over in my head and decided I wasn't even sure myself. I suppose from an outside observer's point of view I might have expected a bit more objectivity from you, but then again I can also imagine myself backing someone who I thought was town if their argument really made sense (and it made a shitload of sense to me at the time).

So I mean... back to you - do you think TN really did scumslip knowledge of the Koromi head in a failed distancing attempt?

And same question to you as to peng - who's your biggest worry outside of TN/Katen if you forget about them for a minute? I've had to do a hard reset just to keep my head in check but right now I'm thinking TN might be town, at least.

I also really like Justin's comment about always explaining his thinking. That's something I find myself saying a lot as town (just because it's true and I'm confident), and if he backs it up then I've got another candidate for my prob-town bloc (yes I'm still doing that).

[talah]

I did ISO him and I only saw 1 vote on Talah and that was the original vote. I also found the two unvotes. I now see it was post 106. I missed it because it is not on its own line like is standard protocol.

I didn't see a second vote originally so I didn't think there was a second vote. I was trying to catch them in the lie I thought they were telling.

I don't understand how catching him in this kind of lie would be any way alignment indicative.

Hypothetical: You can prove that TN lied about voting me for a second time. You have rock-solid evidence that he only voted me once and he lied about it.
Your next move is to: ...call him scummy for trying to hide the fact that he only made one vote and not two?

Otherwise can you explain where your processes were going with this please.


I'm *still* having a really hard time trying to figure out how you can be reading Katen as town when you are asserting that TN was caught by the "scumslip" where he "reveals knowledge he shouldn't have of Katen's other head". The slip is predicated on them being a team - it doesn't work *at all* if you're townreading one and not the other.

Can you explain that inconsistency?

--
Quick ISO impression, Finglove/mlearn maybe town, Void maybe scum.
That's it for me for tonight.

[talah]

Because I don't think it's a scumslip.

So you're talking about the reactions after that? What were we syncing on?

[talah]

@Justin, the anecdote was by way of explanation as to why I had a shitfit about it at the time rather than why I removed my vote. Pretty sure that's evident in the post.
Back later.

[talah]

I'd actually prefer not to end the day before we have to with your role in play Pasch.

[talah]

I removed my vote *because* of misgivings. I initially attacked *because* of gut.
Sorry for the terse reply but I'm at work right now. Happy to discuss what I was thinking and am thinking further over the weekend.

[talah]

This thread gets my "Getting Drunk but Before Actually Drunk" post before I eke off to the land of more conservative and less self-destructive resisting the urge to post every single thing I think-land. Land. Yay! \o/

I'm sure you're not interested.

My current status:

- I *am* worried about both peng and Desp, who as yet have both failed to answer my pingback questions on who *aside* from TN/Katen they found most suspicious. I'd like to know why. Additionally the original tete-a-tete about setups seemed to be a conversation they were having together rather than an open question (although I did think it was a decent alternative to general RVS shenanigans, it's just that I felt like an outsider - almost like the convo could have been pre-planned). Unfortunately that evaporated pretty quickly after the Hydra Knowledge Scumslip Shitfight of the Century.

- I did wonder about Pim originally (this in relation to Pasch's comment) and ultimately settled on town-leaning for the slot (as I could see cheeky-scum saying something like haha-you-might-be-right-but-I'm-not-telling-you, but I could also see it coming from town - probably at the time more so because I didn't like TN's approach) and liked Justin's entrance and statement that he's open to explaining his reasoning. HOWEVER... I appreciate the alternative viewpoint on that and most recently I am having trouble understanding just what the relevance of the question being asked of me was. I had a view, rethought it, changed tack and I'm not sure what is ambiguous about that, nor why the single post is flagged as suspicious as opposed to everything else. But we have a date over the next couple of days to nut out the reasoning behind the line of questioning (I'm taking that liberty since it was offered), and I don't currently have any concern that questions I might have will be avoided.

- Still not worried about SeeEmpty. The only thing which is currently out is ignoring beast's defence of Katen, however, I see the singleminded lurker-push as having stubborned up on Katen to prove a point.

- Lurkers-who-I-haven't-played-with-before - Hi, and yay for you! How do I put this nicely... Will "please fucking contribute opinions so I and everyone else can get a read on you" do it? To be clear, I don't even care if your opinions are bad - I just want to know where you're coming from right now.

- regarding beast, at this stage I would have liked a whole lot more votes to see how he wanted to explain where he was coming from under the reality of the threat of lynch. Looks like that's not happening right now. I have no problem lynching Katen at the end of the day if only to get rid of a ton of wifom and allow generally reasonable discussion. But I don't like the idea of letting the day go unused either.

I'm have a little muse on the best option and then change my vote I think.

(and with this wall of text you can officially consider me finished thought-dumping on the thread)

[talah]

UNVOTE: beast
VOTE: Desp

(mainly because I want strong reads on these guys and neither are giving much, and the alternative being peng would mean that Katen would hijack the discussion and yaddayadda)

Wagon, anyone?

Desp, who are your current scum and town reads and why are you being so quiet?

[talah]

It's where a player calls their predecessor's play scummy (or possibly more loosely, scummy-looking or just bad). Think it's based on the name of an old-school MS player who must have done it as scum.

Prod-dodging, sorry. I have this week off work though - will be back, and have been generally following along. Just a bit brain-dead.

[talah]

Eh - I don't see it as particularly scummy myself, but the fact that it's a tell makes it at least a point of conversation. A townie floated it as a possible tell for me once when I was replacing in and catching up and simply thought my predecessor's play looked scummy and mentioned it.

I'm guessing that this is the player. So not quite so old-school as you XD
http://forum.mafiascum.net/memberlist.p ... le&u=10654

Yeah I'm still in no hurry to end the day if it's fait accompli that Katen is today's lynch. If I have to balance priorities between fitting in having a chat with you and really going over all players with Paschendale before he gets nightkilled, it'll be the chat with Pasch. It's 9am Sunday morning here and we have 4+ days left, to put things in perspective. I'd prefer to interact on that level without being frazzled, though. Otherwise it's just noise.

This casual chatting seems fine enough though.

How long were you away from MS?

[talah]

Desp - if we were syncing on our Katen read at the time, why are you preferring TN for scum?

Are you townreading Katen now? If not, then what differences are you seeing that would make TN more likely scum than Katen?

I really want you to start explaining stuff because I think I would value your insights pretty highly as town.

[talah]

No problem. I actually don't care what pronoun is used and find it quite amusing in those cases I suspect it's intentionally used incorrectly (not that yours is one of these cases).

Anyway I was just having a look over Pasch's iso for his current standings especially in relation to Desp. You seem like an intelligent guy. Is there any reason you're putting so much work into catching up over bouncing ideas off the IC? You're not getting lynched today obviously, nor nightkilled tonight, whereas Pasch presumably is.

[talah]

I'd like to discuss and mention a couple of things and get your take. Sorry I've been a bit detached. The initial arguing really shivered my confidence and investment.

1. I get the criticisms of Pim, and his actions haven't been great, but he's just offered so little that I can't really justify a vote on him other than a lurker vote. And I hate lurker votes. The replacement confirms this. Pim is simply a non-entity.

Regarding Justin, I'm not giving him a free pass. Old-school players returning to mafia I've encountered several times (I can give you two specific examples of scum-returning if you need them) and they have incredible townvibes as scum. They're fresh and come from a different meta. But they tend to peter off I've found, not that that's reliable with only a couple of examples in my experience, and given I live tonight I think I have enough of a natural caution about this that I'd be looking for different things in Justin-scum as compared to anyone else I hadn't played with before. He leans town but not as strongly as from his entry in my opinion.

5. Can someone explain for me, clearly and concisely, the case on Charizard?

To me it's very similar to what I'm worried about from Desp. I've been in town shitfights before and I simply don't know if this was one. Presumably others have seen town shitfights before. Desp merely says that he and I are in sync. Then he says it was regarding Katen (he's voting TN but anyway that's I guess an outstanding query I have).
Beast on the other hand says he follows my logic and then proceeds to townread Katen and scumread TN, ignoring the fact that the nature of the logic implied both were scum. He did respond basically saying that he liked the fact that I was scumreading TN but effectively for different reasons. The logic comment could have been about my use of logic I suppose. The strong townread on Katen stuck out, however.
I'm not sure about beast, could go either way but lack of being able to wagon outside of Katen/TN right now was a bit inhibiting. The game I played with him, surprisingly, fits in with what Katen said about him being generally lurkerish (which I intentionally didn't mention at the time) but the circumstances of that other game were quite different. He may have changed his playstyle but I'm generally slightly scumleaning him.

6. Can those voting Tn give updated reasons and re-examine?

Warrants a mention. I'm slightly town on him but this is primarily because he professed to not want to come back and read the thread (which I also didn't). He also seems to be struggling a bit getting back into the game (which I also am). Cautious because I've been caught out before town reading someone for a single, emotive reason. The early arguing didn't make a lot of sense but town can do stupid things in the heat of the moment (including making mega-walls of discredit).

Lastly I'd like your take on peng and Desp although I think you've alluded already that they're leaning town. These are two players I really wanted to engage with as town, and the lack of direct engagement worries me. peng has lurked more as scum than town from what I've seen but I wonder if in this game it's just an artefact of Katen hyperfocus. Desp is usually pretty unafraid of giving his opinions on, well anything.. and I'm not seeing that. I really really want strong townreads on these guys if they're town and it hasn't happened yet and so that's what I'm looking for tomorrow, even if I have to get under their skin to do so.

As far as the rest go - I'm at a bit of a loss and hopefully mlearn's replacement towns the towniest town ever and I can start getting some stronger townleans than I have right now.

Very open to conversation on whatever you want to bounce ideas on as well. I appreciate we've only got a few days and I've felt pretty useless for half of today.

[talah]

Hi Crash. Decent catchup, like most of your assessments, except not sure why you're voting with Desp if you're suspicious of him, and why is Katen a strong townread as opposed to TN-scum?

@Desp - effectively what Crash said. I'd have thought you'd have a lot more ad-hoc opinions, not so much that you've specifically avoided giving opinions.

@Pasch - still interested in any thoughts you might have on Desp/peng if you have any observations. Also wagon =/= lynch, although it's better if it seems that way for the person being wagonned. Which is not too hard with three scum on the loose wanting to mislynch.

Hi Burning, looking forward to your catch-up.

[talah]

Intent to hammer. Please claim in your next post Katen.

TN - that was really anti-town quite possibly scummy. If you're town please don't throw the game just because you're irritated. If you're scum, well, whatever.

Also who's scum in your opinion.

[talah]

*and quite possibly

[talah]

If Katen flips scum, yeah you're probably right. Otherwise you have 14 days tomorrow to prove you're town.

And that goes nowhere to proving you're town wanting to hammer *someone else* because you can't bear the thought of Day 2.

It's either throwing the game for everyone else because you're pissed, or you're trying to hammer Katen because you're scum.

I see the dilemma for you-town but I don't understand how you have so little faith that you'll be townread if you're town. ZOMG! I'm townleaning you and if Katen flips town it's highly unlikely you're scum imo.

Who's scum?

[talah]

I'm not attacking you. But attempting to hammer another player without a claim because *you're* pissed off, is bullshit. Just saying. It doesn't help the game.

[talah]

Forget it. I've forced town to choose between me and another townie before by self-voting to stop a counter wagon which was emerging. Which was on scum. Things happen. If you're town, just try to help figure out who's scum. That's it. Don't get offended when people call you scum, it's gonna happen.

Anyway I'm out for the day.

[talah]

I'm willing to hammer at any point.

Have you read the thread? Do you have opinions on who's scummy? Do you have any questions for Pasch?

[talah]

UNVOTE: Desperado
VOTE: Katengecchi

I'm prepared to give TN a day to prove he's town over Katen.

L-1

[talah]

Quite frankly, I'm fucked day 2 anyway, so guess what faggots.

VOTE: Katengecchi

Insta-hammer, all night every night.

Fuck the meta.

"I'm gonna be lynched anyway, so why not do something that goes against my stated reads and the interests of the town while I still have the chance."

TN has been town reading Katen all day long. He tried to hammer without a claim. If that's not a scum claim, I don't know what is. It's survivalistic to the max.

I'm prepared to give TN a day to prove he's town over Katen.

Really bad call, sorry.

Maybe. He does have a point though that if Katen's town he's had at least a couple of people splitting their reads and betting Katen-town and TN-scum. So that seems kind of consistent with him still thinking Katen's town despite the hammer. Frankly I'd be more inclined to think TN's scum if Katen flips scum but that's my perspective.

I'm really not a fan of the last minute push away from Katen either. I mistrust the delayed lurk from their slot as well, where it would have been far more beneficial to town if they'd shut up earlier. Ultimately it's pretty easy for scum to park on one of Katen/TN for the day and a lot of that's been Katen's own doing, despite (or maybe because of) the earlier thrashing.

What do you expect from Katen Day 2? I haven't seen a reasonable argument from them yet.

[talah]

@Mod - V/LA until the 18th

Just flagging this but will be around before deadline if needed. (I am on annual leave this week and want a bit of time off Mafia while I can get it.)

[talah]

I'm not lynching a claimed PR. Especially when it also fits with him wanting to hammer Katen where they were pretty much the only options.

CTD - No offence dude - but if I had a dayvig right now I doubt I'd even hesitate. Your arguments are mainly based upon your opinion being correct and whoever disagrees with you being stupid.

[talah]

You've made several statements to the effect of "This is not a town mindset" without any further reasoning.

My deepest and most sincere apologies for seeing that as uncompelling in the face of a PR claim which isn't counterclaimed and which will resolve itself in coming days anyway.

And which as I've mentioned, with reasoning, *does* align with what I could see town thinking if they didn't want to claim and wanted to get use of their PR and saw themself and Katen as the only two possible outcomes for lynch today.

[talah]

Lynching a Tracker Day 1 is, actually.

[talah]

VOTE: Katengecchi

Let's see what happens.

You're too intelligent to not realise that what will happen with a vote like this, is another day of pointless arguing over whether Katen's scum with or without TN. This is an entirely safe scum-vote peng.

VOTE: penguin_alien

The scum also know the PRs that they picked so lets say they chose none for themselves that leaves town with only two PRs.

Remember when everyone said that setup discussion at the beginning of the game was a bunch of irrelevant bullshit?

I'll accept your apologies individually.

Can you point out to me where people were saying it was irrelevant bullshit as opposed to anti-town?

I really don't think it was *helpful* to us -as such- in this game but don't think it was irrelevant because it was a conversation starter.

So I mean, why do you think continuing discussion of setup spec at this stage is helpful?
And what's your read on peng right now and why?


@CTD - you of all people I'd like a readslist from please. That push on TN *after* he claimed tracker was pretty hokey if you don't mind me saying. I would like to know where your thoughts are currently at so if/when they change I can find out why.

[talah]

You're too intelligent to not realise that what will happen with a vote like this, is another day of pointless arguing over whether Katen's scum with or without TN. This is an entirely safe scum-vote peng.

Hey, look at that, someone defending Katengecchi. Who said I want to spend the day arguing? I'm also just fine with lynching Katengecchi. And why would we argue over whether Katengecchi's scum *with* tn541?

Don't you think that by vote-parking on Katen right out of the gates you'd just be *inviting* discussion on Katen's alignment with regard to TN's? Or do you have a push/scumread on Katen? You declined to lynch them yesterday. Associatives come into play since we've seen TN's flip.


@Burning - your votes were different. Yours is the only one drawing attention, apparently. I'm interested in the other.

[talah]

With that said, irrelevant bullshit is antitown by definition so I don't even understand why you bothered to make the distinction in the first place.

This might just be a difference of opinion on what constitutes "irrelevant" (I'm going to say that Katen went on to argue pretty strongly that it would give scum an advantage; Pim threw his hat in the ring with what he would have done and asked how it would help, didn't say it was irrelevant; to be fair SeeEmpty does seem to think it's irrelevant) - and I don't think irrelevant and anti-town are synonymous, nor do I think the initial discussion was either as I indicated.

Not really the point I guess - wondering actually how you feel it's going to help town to speculate over roles at this point in the game when nobody except any remaining PRs would know, and they probably wouldn't want to be involved in the spec anyway. Comes across as rolefishy and your statement does nothing to move the game forward.

So anyway looking forward to the hard reset and am *still* waiting on your read on peng, because I'm getting nothing from her and she seems really controlled/deliberate to me which I think is a scumtell for her.

[talah]

@Mod - Votecount is wrong atm (looks like they're transposed one down or something) :P

Oops, I deleted a row and didn't make adjustments to my indirect fields. ~Cheery

[talah]

Oops, I deleted a row and didn't make adjustments to my indirect fields.

*cough*
I'm voting peng, not Katen.

[talah]

Despite any wifom, I don't see Katen as town and I don't have a better suspect.

VOTE: Katen

I honestly don't care if they're town or scum when it comes down to it, and the fact they've posted nothing substantive today has me agreeing with lynching Katen. Suppose the point is that they were always going to be lynched today or tomorrow if they didn't shit townbricks anyway.

I'm far more interested in *why* people are wanting to lynch Katen, or are townreading Katen. It's more pertinent to know that about the remaining players once the flip is known.

Anyway I haven't been putting a lot of effort into this game and I apologise for that.

But yeah I wouldn't say no to a Desp or peng lynch today either. I'll drop a readslist in the next couple of days.

[talah]

Oh and any questions are welcome, too, if anyone has any doubt about my alignment.

Much easier to explain what I was thinking and why I took certain actions than poring through everyone else's posts :s

[talah]

Also here, just working late tonight, so I'll be back for realsies tomorrow.

[talah]

And @Talah: Could you explain why Desperado?

Why *what* Desperado?
Are you reading him as town?

This might help as it was what I came in to post:

Vote: burning_earth

REASONS???


--
(I *think* I'm still happy to lynch Peng, even over Katen. Although I empathise with real life stuff, I don't think it's the moderator's, or the other player's, responsibility to assess whether a long v/la is detrimental to the game. RL reasons are certainly not alignment indicative, but really if you can't post for a week then it's probably your own decision, not one for others to make on your behalf)

UNVOTE: peng
(sorry to see you go anyway & hope things work out well for you (vibing you good stuff))

Will see how the replacement measures up.

[talah]

Mainly the lack of attempting to engage with me given we've played together a couple of times before from my perspective.

I know I'm not special or unique but there's no real reason anyone I haven't played with before shouldn't be trying to bounce things off me, I wouldn't think.

[talah]

Mainly because it presupposes that I as scum have difficulty interacting with people that I've played with before, which isn't even remotely accurate.

It presupposes that I know something of what to expect from your personality as one alignment or the other, true. And no it's not stupid. It's been how I've gone about reading some other players with decent success.

But yeah I don't know your personality all that well, all I'm really working with is the Messiah Complex hydra where you were pretty opinionated and 'pokey' if I could put it that way.

And I would like your reasoning for voting Burning, because I want to understand what you're seeing that makes you think he's scum.

[talah]

So, is this your explanation?:

That seals it

Vote Katen

Sneak preview: this guy is probably scum.

If so then what makes his vote any different from peng's vote (or SeeEmpty's, for that matter), and what was the nail in the coffin for Burning that you wait to flop down a naked vote rather than just voting him at the time?

Like... you say you have expressed your reasons, I'm saying you're not showing your working.

I don't even have much of a read on Burning, so why not take the time out to sell me on him-as-scum? What's your beef?

[talah]

Why did you townread Katen if not for arrogance that scum wouldn't do?

What's your read on Desp?

[talah]

Well that seems like a pretty good reason he could be scum doesn't it?

[talah]

CTD has posted naught but prod dodges today. That is neither relevant nor productive.

I don't know what your game is Koromo.

Explain to me how CTD coming out of nowhere *insisting* on TN fakeclaiming, and his out-of-nowhere strongstrong townread on you, is more likely to come from town that scum trying to gain advantage. Why aren't you seeing that as scummy if you're town?

[talah]

Well that seems like a pretty good reason he could be scum doesn't it?

If you think Desperado is scum then why aren't you voting them? Why aren't you voting in general? It seems like you are just trying to get me to change my vote without actually endorsing the person yourself.

I don't know if Desp is scum or not, I'm trying to get to the bottom of it. I do have him leaning scum, though. The reason I asked *you* whether you thought maybe flying under the radar is a scumtell is because I want to know your opinion to get a read on *you*, not because I'm already sold and am trying to get you to help me lynch him.

I unvoted penguin because she's being replaced (ie: "replacement my vote is by default on you but you have a chance to prove yourself") and there's no need for me to vote Katen which would be who I'd otherwise be voting just for the flip, if I had a townread on peng's slot.

Ask me to go with gut? Scum are peng-slot, you, and Desp. But having only TN's flip to work with makes a Katen lynch pretty worthwhile just for the interest in the lynch.

[talah]

Then vote either me or Desp then Talah. If not for the lynch then maybe for a little added pressure.

VOTE: Talah

I will even help you out. You can't just sit idly by because the slot you were voting is being replaced. Use that time to further your reads on other people and vote one of them. You are asking questions but you aren't giving any sort of pressure what so ever. It doesn't feel like you believe your scum reads on me or Desperado at this point. Now I understand the unvote on slot replacement but the no re-voting someone else is what pings me.

I'll do what I think is in town's best interests, thank you very much.

Is your vote because you think I'm scum, or because you're ludicrously pointlessly trying to demonstrate what "pressure" looks like? Because I know pressure, and it's far more subtle than laying down a vote and saying "OI PRESSURE HEAR".

VOTE: peng

Welcome back. Is Katen scum in your eyes, or not?
Did you vote her because you had a realisation she was scum, or because you were trying to bait reactions?

How does your discovery that this Saki isn't "our Saki" affect your read in any case? Did you previously think it was more likely that "our Saki" as one of the heads would be more indicative of Katen-scum?

Also what Justin said about your marvellous Katen/TN/Katen switching.

[talah]

Alright. 2 days left - I'm not going to try and protract this just to force a more meaningful response. I still don't have anything resembling a townread on peng but whatever, it's not like I have a super-stellar scum read either. I'm also going to be a bit sporadic for the next little while (not sure if I mentioned that here) and so I think Katen's probably the best lynch for today.

I still have no idea what the thinking was behind voting TN *after* he claimed yesterday. That needs to be explained better.

UNVOTE: peng
VOTE: Katen

[talah]

It's not like there are a multitude of scum to be having aggregate greyscale results on either wagon beast.

Who are the scum on either wagon?

Also did you just reaffirm a scumread on me which you never expressed in the first place?

[talah]

Well this looks like a return to the bullshit of late Day 1 all over again.

peng. Look over beast's last two posts and tell me whether he states at all whether he's voting me because I'm scum. Now take my word that he's never expressed as much as a hint before that he finds me suspicious.

In any case that's probably a conversation for beast and I, don't you think?

Regarding questions to yourself, how do you think it's beneficial to *not* lynch Katen today in the absence of consensus elsewhere.
As much as it didn't make sense to lynch a PR claim yesterday *no matter how scummy you thought they might be unless you had a counterclaim you didn't want to out* - it makes absolutely ZERO sense here to not be finding out Katen's alignment and working from there.

If you're playing this game like shit and are happy to admit it, for fuck's sake just sheep the IC if you can't trust anyone else.

[talah]

Here's your case on me:

I voted talah because he's scum! Why is he scum? Because I voted him!!!!!!!!!111!!!!one1

Brilliant.

[talah]

In any case that's probably a conversation for beast and I, don't you think?

Hey, talah?

Fuck off.

#1 pet peeve: being told that I'm 'not allowed' to comment on something I find interesting outside of a reaction test scenario.

Well, I hope that felt good. I have thick enough skin.

The point is, I guess, that I wish you'd take the time to comment on some of the numerous issues I have been having with your play and not wanting to talk directly with me, or even maybe comment on the fact I've been voting you most of today, rather than something which beast is really -genuinely- better suited to answer without interference.

Comment on what you like though, I don't give a shit. I just didn't find it helpful.

[talah]

Can people who are *not* voting Katen right now, with

less than two days to deadline

and obviously no consensus, explain in very clear terms:

Why it is *strategically* unsound to lynch Katen today, given the slot is always going to be in doubt
Why Katen as a compromise is unacceptable
Why you feel that no-lynching two days in a row is going to win this game for town

Please can we just do this?


--

You are scum because you don't vote scum reads, you don't pressure people or at least put adequate pressure on people, you are throwing stuff at the wall hoping that it sticks, and you are saying I didn't have a scum read on you which is out right ridiculous to even think.

Your previous post where you voted me seemed as much a "demonstration of pressure" as anything else which I specifically queried. You ignored that query. I vote people for a multitude of reasons given situations (reactions on maybe-scums, sheeping townreads or even nullreads to get a better read on who I'm sheeping, etc etc). But it's *very* situational.

I've been voting peng most of the day. This is *despite* me also pushing Desp, and (well just recently Day 2, to be fair) also you. Crash has been absent.

Peng looks like replacing out and I explicitly unvote and *don't* vote Desp so that the replacement has a faux-vote on them. I keep trying to squeeze a drop of input out of Desp, however.

Is that not pressure to you? Because that's how I do pressure.

[talah]

Crash. Two days before deadline is not the time to be taking a righteous stand and not compromising.

You've V/LA'd most of today. Just answer my questions please, since you're not voting Katen. Pretty simple. Point form is fine.

EDIT: reading

[talah]

Why it is *strategically* unsound to lynch Katen today, given the slot is always going to be in doubt

It is strategically unsound to lynch a player you believe is going to flip town.

Given your previous strategy of lynching a PR claim which was not counterclaimed Day 1, I think your strategy is pretty fucking sub-par. With all due respect.

Why Katen as a compromise is unacceptable

It's not.

Very well. I don't know how you can be so sure that Pasch is incorrect.

Why you feel that no-lynching two days in a row is going to win this game for town

It's not.

Then why take it down to the limit, given you already acknowledge the slot is going to be in doubt. If there's one thing we can take advantage of from the D1 no-lynch, it's that we now *don't* have to contend with a MYLO situation which has Katen in it, if we lynch her now.

Now can the people voting Katen explain why "reaching a consensus" is synonymous with "voting Katen" and why compromise for them is an entirely unilateral concept in this situation? Do you have a town read on B_E? Is he not an acceptable compromise? You are expecting people to go against their beliefs in supporting a bad lynch. That's more browbeating than compromise. A good compromise is a lynch on a player a majority of people agree has a better chance of flipping scum than town. Not a lynch forced through by a minority under threat of no lynch.

Burning Earth would be the minority lynch. Not Katen. As evidenced by votes and opinion.
The only case on him currently is "well that seals it". Everything else is overshadowed by the push *against* Katen's lynch yesterday. Frankly something as null as an unvote before deadline yesterday is *not* in scum's interests, unless Katen is also scum.

[talah]

Hindsight and all that. I did not have the privilege of knowing his claim was truthful and neither, might I add, did the townies among the Katen voters unwilling to switch. It was literally impossible for me to achieve any other lynch when it came down to it, Katen or otherwise, so my deadline play was in fact optimal and yours wasn't. A chance to lynch scum is better than no lynch at all and your whining about suboptimal play falls on deaf ears when you directly and implicitly contributed to yesterday's no lynch and are now making the exact same play expecting different results. With all due respect.

I'm sorry - what?

You're now arguing that your own refusal to compromise on Katen yesterday makes lynching a claimed PR Day 1 an optimal strategy, flip unknown?

Why does -your read- trump an -unknown, possibly provable claim-, to the point that you, personally, decide that forcing a no-lynch is a preferable option?

If you had the counterclaim I might understand not wanting to out it - but you don't, because TN *was the tracker just like he claimed*.

[talah]

Actually he does have at least one other completed game, as I played in it with him under an alt.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=36653
(actually not sure if we were in it at the same time but I read along after I died and have roughly the same read on him now as I did then. which is 'no fucking idea')

I'm with Justin here. Burning flips town, Crash can go down in flames.

@Mod: V/LA until end 8th June

I'll check back before deadline, though.

[talah]

Oh, good?

[talah]

VOTE: CrashTextDummie

What A Fucking Revelation About Burning As Soon As Muffin Replaces In.

[talah]

You know what?

You're just like making catch-phrases and spruiking up suspicions and allegations.

I have no idea where you're coming from except that you're "attack attack attack" "defend defend defend"

I haven't seen your kind of scum before but you're really making no effort to integrate, or resolve townreads, or anything on the genuine side of this game.

Which makes me awesomely sure you're scum!



You're spending SOSO much time saying how people "don't have this or that" which means they're scum

SO much time saying how virtuous it was that you wanted to lynch a PR claim yesterday

SO much time saying that everyone else except you was responsible for no lynch yesterday


There is total defensiveness and aggressiveness on your part. All you're attempting is influence, and not identification or integration.


SOOOOOOO you're not voting zMuffin now?
And does that mean you think that lynching Katen is the next best thing?
Or Pengiun?
Or...

Anybody else? Oh yeah that's your vote - SeeEmpty. UMMMMMMMMMM WHAT?


I seriously have no idea who your town and scumreads are. Do you mind jotting down a list for posterity?

[talah]

I seriously have no idea who your town and scumreads are. Do you mind jotting down a list for posterity?

[talah]

Nevermind, sorry, half-reading. Digest later.

Don't really understand your reads on Katen and PA.

[talah]

UNVOTE: Crash
VOTE: Katen

Consider my vote proxied to you Pasch.

[talah]

There are 2 and a half hours left.

I'll be hammering peng shortly.

[talah]

Well, here's hoping.

[talah]

I needed to reread the *rules* to find out if 1-shot vig was a scum-selectable role.

I think I disagree with your semi-non-massclaim there zMuffin. What's your rationale?

[talah]

I mean I'm guessing the vig is Desp anyway, which is really bad for my own ideas of how I think people should interact with me, but a claim would at least remove the fucking concern. Idunno, is it just me when we have one chance left?

[talah]

That's not a rationale, it's an assertion.

[talah]

Scum don't have to guess if we lynch wrong.

So.. Let town guess works for you? Or what.

[talah]

Right. Hey I'm just going on statistics here but the vig has an 100% mis-hit rate right now so maybe they'd like to be confirmed town and openly discuss their target pool.

[talah]

I don't know why a massclaim is a bad idea here.

If we mislynch today we lose unless the Vig pulls a kill out of his arse having just killed *finglove over katen*.

And we're talking three scum still alive who are obviously having a big influence on the game.

Massclaim at mylo is a fucking *great* thing as far as I can tell, unless we want to no-lynch today and instruct the vig to not shoot. Which would be stupid if we massclaimed.

Am I fucking talking to myself here? We need ALL THE INFORMATION WE CAN GET TODAY OR WE LOSE.


VT.

[talah]

Hey I just thought. No vig Night 1 actually means that whoever the vig targeted is very likely a scum bulletproof.

The reason for at least the vig to claim, is that scum *can't* counterclaim today (because if there is a counterclaim we just leave both alive and the vig takes care of the fakeclaim overnight). It also *forces* scum to kill the vig, which means that if we have any other PRs left it gives them a free shot at enacting bodyguard / returning a result tomorrow.

My lynch pool is pretty much identical to SeeEmpty's at this stage. He and Justin can be town. I keep flip-flopping on Katen so am just going to leave her out at this stage. So Crash, zMuffin, beast, Desp.

I don't want to have to keep reminding you that it's MYLO kids. With potential scum bulletproofs floating around we can't rely on the vig doing our job for us. If you're town please just claim.

edit: reading

[talah]

Pretty much answered. We get the most possible information available. The only possible PRs we have left are bodyguard or goon cop aside from the vig. Mafia have had free use of their rolecop if they picked it (which they probably would) since TN died. They know our roles. They can't counterclaim today.

[talah]

The traitor loses it's bulletproof if they choose to recruit them. So talah obviously knows something.

What do I know?

What was my slip?

Seriously, I'd like to know just what the fuck you're talking about.

[talah]

beast is also supposed to have a townread on you I think.

[talah]

I mean this is the second time that beast has placed a vote on me for reasons which are basically rubbish that he's trying to draw attention to and justify a crapvote with.

The first was because I wasn't voting
Now it's because I am speculating that there could be up to two bulletproof scum alive

When I saw the initial vote this morning my strong inclination (although I was running late for work) was to just make it into a 1v1 because I was almost sure that that kind of stretching attack was likely to come from scum. During the day reading along my gut-posts would have been "nice guys, I almost believe that the conversation you're having is really town v town or town v scum as opposed to distancing" (ie zMuffin & beast).

There are numerous problems today. One of which is that if we mislynch we most likely lose. Another is I don't know if beast's push is more likely to come from scum or town who doesn't know how to scumhunt.

--
Ultimately what I'm tending is that zMuffin told beast to re-push me with something so that he can reaffirm his liking of the talah push which was "maybe-town". I mean I'll reference the post if you want but I'm kind of lazy and it's Friday night.

So... Given that I *know* that this is the lowest activity time on MS I'm going to drop this vote and if anyone's freaking out or if anyone else sheeps or whatever hopefully I'll be around in time to remove it. (I'm subscribed to the thread n shit.)


But I'm at least relatively comfortable with a beast lynch (and can at least say he played like crap post-game if I'm wrong).

VOTE: beastcharizard

[talah]

No takers? Ok good.

Seeya tomorrow.

[talah]

*cough* I am just going to place this here and then read what you've posted.

Goon cop is unprovable and safely claimable by scum.

Reading.

[talah]

Night 2:
Talah: Goon

Oh I'm sorry what lol
Did you just do that?

[talah]

Beast has a guilty on me folks.

Please vote me.

WOOT!

[talah]

UNVOTE: beastcharizard
VOTE: beastcharizard

for emphasis!

[talah]

I assume that scum has rolecopped the vig and win if I'm lynched. Frankly I find myself a strange choice, but hey, fun.

zMuffin, what do you think about beast's push here?

[talah]

Also please PLEASE slaughter me with questions about anything that I've been thinking at any time throughout this game. I'll answer with exactly how I'm feeling and what I thought.

My eyeballs are actually ecstatic, I don't think I've been fakeclaimed against before :) <3

[talah]

Based on roles, lynch beast -> vig talah will get one scum and get us to D4 no matter what.

This is true, since I am actually VT as I already claimed...

Based on reads, I believe beast over talah.

..however I can't help but point out the inconsistency that you believe beat over me, but are more inclined to lynch beast.

If beast is scum we also might get another scum overnight.

Well at least if we lynch beast the vig gets a derp-shot If that's needed. I'd go either muffin or Crash myself, probs muffin actually due to the peng push. But whatever.

[talah]

LOL! Beast you scumfuck, I called you so so early with your shit townread on Katen <3

[talah]

Based on roles,

lynch beast -> vig talah

will get one scum and get us to D4 no matter what.

This is true, since I am actually VT as I already claimed...

Based on reads, I believe beast over talah.

..however I can't help but point out the inconsistency that you believe beat over me, but are more inclined to lynch beast.

If beast is scum we also might get another scum overnight.

Well at least if we lynch beast the vig gets a derp-shot If that's needed. I'd go either muffin or Crash myself, probs muffin actually due to the peng push. But whatever.

I am pretty sure they said to lynch you and not me.

Off to work. Will check in at lunch.

Yah. Good point.

[talah]

Oh sorry. I only saw the bit where he said he thought lynching you was optimal.
Not the bit where he said lynching me was optimal.

What a fucking travesty.



Anyway I'm done with you, nice job and shit but it's not you and I who decide anyway.

WHAT DO YOU THINK TOWN

WILL THE MIGHTY BEAST BE SLAYED?
OR WILL THE TALAH OF REDEPMTION BE DOWNTRODDEN?


THE CHOICE IS YOURS. CHOOSE WISELY.

[talah]

Oh I just realised something too.

beast has claimed a goon cop guilty on me.

Which means if beast flips town, there is a guaranteed scumkill on me. Because I'm guaranteed not bulletproof.


I'm trying as hard as I can to not be ingratiously gleeful. But that was a really bad move.

Just to reiterate.
IF BEAST FLIPS TOWN I WILL BE VIG KILLED BECAUSE THE CLAIM IS A GOON COP GUILTY ON ME.

Thanks!

[talah]

Whoops guaranteed Vig kill. whatevz.

[talah]

@Mod - Replace me - sorry.

[talah]

gg

Sorry for replacing out. Mafia's probably not the game for me :(

Justin had me fooled. Old school players much. Katen I couldn't really connect with after the initial 3-way. Desp and peng I flat-out misread hoping for more interaction. beast way playing way differently from our last encounter although I put it down to personality evolution (although he was well on my radar all game).

Crash I just didn't understand at all.. hopefully my misassumption that Desp was Vig based on the Finglove kill (and possibly an allusion which Crash made?) had an influence on the miskill.

zMuffin self-vote was weird. Nice gut Not_Mafia.

Thanks for the game Cheery.