Open 557: Deck of Stacks [Game Over]

[CrashTextDummie]

Salutations.

[CrashTextDummie]

vote: tn5421

For extremely shallow read lists, engaging in pointless arguments in lieu of actual scum hunting, fence sitting and weakness of votes.

I could also be interested in lynching Justin Playfair or SeeEmpty.

Katengecchi is a solid town read. Same goes for talah. Beastcharizard and mlearn2/replacement are weak town reads.

[CrashTextDummie]

Despo is too passive for my taste. He's been voting tn since page three and has since done preciously little to actually get a wagon on him going. His reads are also terrible. Also a lynch candidate on second sight.

[CrashTextDummie]

Why is Finglove voting Katengecchi? His original reasoning is pretty weak (not particularly bothersome by itself, considering how early it was placed), but we're approaching deadline and it's the leading wagon. More recent posts have sounded more like he's admonishing them for bad town play rather than actual scum play.

[CrashTextDummie]

PA doesn't jive with me much. Other than that, I don't see strong reason to suspect her.

[CrashTextDummie]

It's surprisingly hard to evolve my reads when no one is engaging with me. I don't really like being an IC very much.

People aren't engaging with you because everyone (including you) expects you to be dead tomorrow. Scum in particular don't have any incentive to engage with you since there's no point in trying to influence your reads beyond steering you away from a potential scum lynch. You have the least posts out of anyone who wasn't replaced/isn't a replacement, if you want to leave a lasting impression on the game, you're gonna have to engage with people yourself.

[CrashTextDummie]

except not sure why you're voting with Desp if you're suspicious of him

TN is a stronger scum read, it's possible they're bussing, the TN wagon is solid otherwise and the strongest counterwagon to Katen in the face of approaching deadline.

and why is Katen a strong townread as opposed to TN-scum?

I never bought into the theory that one of them being scum would implicate the other. I started strongly townreading them the moment they pointed out a compelling, non-obvious townslip on your part. Scum are generally not in the business of looking for and pointing out town slips. They have solid reads, they are pushing those reads agressively and I have seen no compelling evidence from anyone that what they're doing is scum motivated.

[CrashTextDummie]

Why do you associative passivity with scum play? And I've "done precious little" to get a wagon going on tn because I also think Katen is scum and they've been the lead wagons for basically the whole game.

Then why not vote Katen? Your vote being on TN indicates that you'd prefer lynching him and I'd expect that to be reflected not just in your voting behavior.

Being passive is the opposite of being pro-active, which is the town characteristic needed to actually get scum lynched. Considering I have a town read on Katen, I see your behavior as sitting back and letting them get run up while you have your vote parked elsewhere.

[CrashTextDummie]

Quite frankly, I'm fucked day 2 anyway, so guess what faggots.

VOTE: Katengecchi

Insta-hammer, all night every night.

Fuck the meta.

"I'm gonna be lynched anyway, so why not do something that goes against my stated reads and the interests of the town while I still have the chance."

TN has been town reading Katen all day long. He tried to hammer without a claim. If that's not a scum claim, I don't know what is. It's survivalistic to the max.

I'm prepared to give TN a day to prove he's town over Katen.

Really bad call, sorry.

[CrashTextDummie]

CrashTextDummie, could you explain your reasons for a townread on Katen?

Are you actually interested in hearing an answer to this or are you just asking for the sake of asking? Because that has been the purpose to most of your questions as far as I can tell.

I've given the main reason why I'm town reading them. I'd town read them for it even if all their pushes had been terrible. I agree with their read on SeeEmpty. I don't necessarily agree with their read on PA, but I can see where they're coming from.

[CrashTextDummie]

I'd also like for Paschendale to seriously reconsider if he wants to be party to a Katen lynch.

[CrashTextDummie]

So that seems kind of consistent with him still thinking Katen's town despite the hammer.

Hammer without a claim is the key. Playfair mistakenly announced L-1 and he immediately went for it. That's not a knee-jerk town reaction, that's straight from the scum playbook, opportunistic and self-serving.

What do you expect from Katen Day 2? I haven't seen a reasonable argument from them yet.

More of the same, in all likelyhood.

[CrashTextDummie]

And this is the way I hunt scum. Don't really understand all the hostility toward asking questions now. They used to be all the rage.

None of your questions seem to have done anything to inform your vote. You structured your entrance in such a way that you "interrogated" (parenthesis since you mostly threw softball questions) the people you didn't suspect first, an odd choice I might add, and then worked your way through the list slowly enough that by the time you got to any actual suspects the deadline was close enough that the time for any meaningful discussion had passed.

I think it's very telling that you didn't have a single question for the person you ended up voting for, and it's pretty evident to me that you were gearing to vote Katen from the moment you replaced in. In that context, I see your questions as nothing more than posturing and an attempt to bloat up your ISO.

[CrashTextDummie]

How does this one instance stack up against the rest of TN's actions?

Not quite sure what you're asking here, but I can tell you how it stacks up against any and all of Katen's actions. It's orders of magnitudes worse.

Okay, convince me.

I've given you more than enough reason to lynch TN over Katen. It's just a matter of whether you want to be convinced or not.

Except that everyone knows that quickhammers get taken to town the next day. A wagon will build on a quickhammerer every time, no matter how obviously scummy the hammered person was. Putting oneself in the spotlight like that, risking a lynch so blatantly, is not very good scum play. And having seen some quickhammerers get lynched over their hammer, they don't flip scum any more often than random chance would suggest.

Echoing SeeEmpty. If TN expects to be lynched anyway, there's no reason why he wouldn't do something to hurt the town on his way out. Hammering a potential power role is towards the top of the list of hurtful things you can do to a town. There is literally no town motivation to explain his hammer attempt but there is tremendous scum motivation.

[CrashTextDummie]

Not if they think the current wagon is hard to push and wanted to find a way to switch to another wagon. This is basically just the same as scum calling another person town. I don't see how this is a town tell.

I strongly disagree. There is scum motivation in calling another person town, it's designed to influence that person's read on you (i.e. buddying) or getting in the good grace of people who are also townreading that person. Pointing out a townslip has an altogether different effect, it influences the reads others have of that person. It is very decidedly not in the interest of scum to prove the innocence of town members (which the majority of players assume Talah is), there is literally no upside for them.

More importantly, I once again stress that scum

do not look for townslips

. They know who the town are, they don't need proof of it. Town do. The towntell Katen pointed out is not remotely obvious. I personally wouldn't have caught it because I didn't unspoiler the mod's dead list (and would never have thought of doing it on D1). This is not a throwaway tidbit that any scum could have pieced together offhand. It required a significant amount of pro-town thought and effort on Katen's part.

[CrashTextDummie]

Looks exactly like frustrated town to me!

Frustrated about what? You are also currently voting the guy.

[CrashTextDummie]

CTD, you said you weren't sure about my play here (which, yes, I've been inactive lately; surprise!IRL things running amok) but now we're right off a game with town-me, and you know how I think as scum as well as anyone after 164. If you can narrow down your read on me, that would be super.

I agree. What's your read on me?

[CrashTextDummie]

I might be mistaken, but would scum have had to piece it together offhand? Wouldn't scum have known? And since Katen had fought long and hard to press a case against Talah with essentially no results, would it not have been an easy way to extract herself from that situation with the least possible damage? As Katen herself said when declaring it a townslip for Talah, it was only a townslip because scum would have known.

Why would scum feel a need to artificially "exctract" themselves from scum reading someone?

Scum knows if they're using a QT or a private topic. They don't necessarily know that there's a hint in the opening post, nor would they feel a need to point it out. Particularly since there's no guarantee the note will still be there once the mod starts adding dead people to the list.

In fact your own logic argues more conclusively that this would be a scumtell than a towntell. Why would town-Katen have unspoilered the mod’s dead list in response to Talah’s mention of QTs? And she would have had to have done it then, because her response including that information was her third post after Talah made this townslip. Scum Katen would have known about it all along and could simply choose the right moment to use it.

You made me check. They are a hydra. Saki was the one who pointed out the town slip. The preceeding 4 posts were signed by Koromo. Your lack of attention to detail is disturbing.

The only real way your argument here would work is if you knew Katen is town before you looked at the evidence.

If you are suggesting that I'm scum and that Katen is town, maybe you should stop voting them.

[CrashTextDummie]

Claiming that your arguments are self-evident and we're just lying to ourselves or being stubborn for not agreeing with you is pretty much the least compelling thing you can do. I have literally no reason to listen to you.

I'm not claiming that my arguments are self-evident, otherwise I wouldn't be reiterating, clarifying and elaborating on them. If you don't think you have any reason to listen to me, there is not much I can do to help you.

[CrashTextDummie]

Paschendale, if you can't see that that's a fake claim, you're willfully blind. That goes for everyone, you're just the only one who has posted postclaim.

He tries to hammer because he's "getting lynched anyway". He says we can always lynch him tomorrow. None of that matches up in the slightest with him being a power role. He's clearly just trying to survive another day.

I'm on the phone and will adress other stuff once I'm home, that is if no one hammers before that. Which would not be bad at all.

[CrashTextDummie]

We're under two hours here. Is anyone really comfortable with no-lynch? Burning Earth, is that what your unvote with no new vote means?

How about we change things up and you answer your own question for once? Are

you

comfortable with no-lynch? TN was your second biggest suspect (until our little spat at least), so you shouldn't be categorically opposed to lynching him. Do you find his claim believable?

[CrashTextDummie]

tn if you are a PR why do you think you're going to be lynched? why are you even offering yourself to be lynched?
Not really liking the 180 read on us either.

You're not going to get any satisfying answers to those questions, not within the next hour, not ever.

But then again I have a feeling that if he's town scum will deal with him to begin with.
I have some mixed thoughts on where to proceed for now.

Don't hold your breath on scum dealing with him, he's very obviously caught scum himself.
The correct way to proceed is to vote him so that Burning Earth can satisfy his urge to hammer.

CTD what's your read on SeeEmpty/has it changed since you said you could also be interested in lynching him?

Still a scum read, though not as strong as Playfair after his recent shenanigans and obviously not as strong as TN. I'll take another look at him tomorrow.

[CrashTextDummie]

It's ironic, since I am a Town PR.

To empathize, this is

not

a town reaction to being put at L-1.

[CrashTextDummie]

No offense to you either, talah, but you need to get over your unwarranted indignation. I feel very strongly that I'm right and I can see how I could be coming across as arrogant and that that can be a turn-off. But my arguments are most definitely not based on me being correct and others being stupid.

His wanting to hammer Katen does not match his claim at all, the opposite is true. If he was truly a power role, he shouldn't have felt threatened by his wagon. He could have simply claimed his role properly if it had come to that. He most definitely shouldn't have voiced the sentiment that he will be lynched anyway. He shouldn't have tried to bargain with the town that we can lynch him tomorrow.

[CrashTextDummie]

You've made several statements to the effect of "This is not a town mindset" without any further reasoning.

Do I have to spell out to you why hammering someone without a claim, compromising your position further as an alleged power role in the process, making statements that directly contradict your alleged status as a power role, etc. does not come from a town mind set? How his actions make a tremendous amount of sense for scum trying to achieve a mislynch and surviving another day? I will if I have to, but seriously.

And which as I've mentioned, with reasoning, *does* align with what I could see town thinking if they didn't want to claim and wanted to get use of their PR and saw themself and Katen as the only two possible outcomes for lynch today.

I could see town thinking that if they had no regard for their win con. The vast majority of players on this site don't fit that profile.

[CrashTextDummie]

SeeEmpty, you just expressed that both pointing out the townslip and their VT claim makes them look town. And that TN's claim feels fake. And that you're sticking with your stronger scum read. How is that still Katen?

There are 4 people online from the Katen wagon who could lynch TN. As far as I can see, I'm the only one around from the TN wagon who could hammer Katen. I won't let a no lynch happen, but I virtually guarantee you that they will flip town.

[CrashTextDummie]

Crash, think about how tn has acted throughout the day. How he has responded to every push, every disagreement. Are you really willing to dismiss his claim wholesale at this point, considering the possible implications to town?

I think he has played a scum game through and through and I've expressed why when I placed my vote, though in not that many words.

[CrashTextDummie]

8 minutes.

[CrashTextDummie]

Crash, you can't assure a lynch on Katen. Unless I'm miscounting again she's two votes short.

Right, I missed that PA's unvote dropped them to L-2.

All the more reason TN should be lynched.

[CrashTextDummie]

Katen, vote TN or vote for yourself.

[CrashTextDummie]

3 minutes.

[CrashTextDummie]

Prod dodge. Content tomorrow.

[CrashTextDummie]

I think SeeEmpty is scum. I get the strong impression that he didn't have the balls to vote someone he knew was a town PR with several townies present who wanted to give TN a chance. He was the only player around who agreed with me that TN's claim seemed fake, but he didn't back it up with a vote. His stated reason for having Katen as a stronger scum read still was that they defended Charizard, which is very weak. It all feels very calculated to me: Agreeing with me in large parts as to Katen looking town (so he wouldn't look as bad once they flip town) and doubting TN's claim to potentially set up his mislynch. That he's now going back on the Katen town tells is also very telling to me, evidently they are not going to get lynched by themselves.

------------

I also have trouble seeing why PA changed her mind on Katen again:

Knowing that tn5421 was town doesn't make me feel better about Katen. Add on that the case was from CTD, who declined to respond to my challenge to read me, and yeah, things changed.

Your "challenge to read [you]" is profoundly silly. I have a bad track record reading you when we are town together. I didn't have a town read on you in the recent game we finished. And I am on record as not having developed a good grasp on your scum meta despite our shared scum game. Besides, this goes both ways: You're arguably among the players most familiar with how I operate as scum and you're also off a recent shared town game with me. And yet you don't seem to have effortlessly zoned in on my alignment either. It's a weird piece of burden of proficiency you are trying to put on me. I don't find you easy to read at all.

So my case for Katen town is not good anymore because what, I was wrong about TN? Or because you think I am scum with Katen?

------------

Instead of a half-hearted excuse, I'd actually like Burning Earth to outline his thought process and motivation in unvoting the leading wagon and disappearing from the thread with 2 hours to go until deadline.

------------

I still think Katen are town. With the knowledge that TN was town, I'm less bothered by Playfair's end-of-day play, since he actually engaged me and tried to talk me out of lynching TN despite our mutual distrust. His lament that we reached the worst possible outcome rings somewhat false since he could have done something to prevent it, but since scum knew for a fact that lynching TN would have been worse I don't see it as an obvious scum statement.

vote: SeeEmpty

[CrashTextDummie]

I'm here, but will be V/LA until Sunday.

[CrashTextDummie]

Hi, I'm back. V/LA took longer than anticipated and I apologize.

That said, not only did CTD and Desperado elect not to hammer Katen, but Penguin shifted his vote from the L-1 Katen wagon to bring TN's wagon to L-1. Burning took TN down to L-2, so at this point, TN was not a viable wagon. CTD, Desperado, and Penguin are the ones who gave us a no lynch on day 1 and put us in this position. These are substantial black marks against them.

You are way off the mark, Paschendale. The people directly responsible for the no-lynch are Katen, talah, Playfair, SeeEmpty and yourself. No one else who was actually there had the power to secure a lynch. Desperado and PA are only culpable insofar as they weren't around at deadline, but they're in the same boat with Finglove, beastcharizard and Burning_Earth on that front. PA at least announced that she wouldn't be able to post anymore. B_E clearly has the worst excuse, since not noticing that we're nearing deadline when people were clearly scrambling to secure a lynch displays a lack of awareness that I find hard to swallow.

I believe that talah had good, strong reason to stick with Katen. She found the claim believable and thought no-lynch to be preferable to lynching a claimed power role. Playfair had less good reasons to stick with Katen. He was willing to believe the claim and was trying to persuade me to reconsider, but he clearly expressed that no-lynch was the worst possible outcome. SeeEmpty had no good reason to stick with Katen. He seemingly didn't buy the claim, bought into my arguments for Katen-town and only kept them as his "top suspect" for their defense of beastcharizard, which in the absence of a bc flip is an incredibly weak argument. His behavior is entirely consistent with how I'd expect a scum in his position to act. He placed doubt on the claim but wasn't prepared to back it up with his vote because the rest of the people present were clearly disinclined to follow his lead and he would have been the deciding factor in swinging momentum towards a player scum knew to be a power role. He was trying to emulate townie behavior, because townie behavior was staring him right in the face (from confirmed town no less). His words don't match his actions.

The fact that Katen ended the day without voting is irksome. They clearly realized that them getting lynched would have been better than no lynch, so I'm not sure the "self voting is bad for information" spiel is entirely kosher.

PA is rightfully getting flak for doing a 180 re: my town case on Katen, and she needs to explain it better. But SeeEmpty did exactly the same thing (the only difference being that he only payed lip-service toward buying my Katen-town case and didn't back it with a vote) and should be equally scrutinized.

[CrashTextDummie]

It seems like meta was a significant part of why you thought Katen are scum. Seeing as you evidently drew from misapplied meta, why are you still convinced they're going to flip scum?

[CrashTextDummie]

PA's manner of claiming looks town to me, as does the rest of her recent posting other than the bizarre Katen vote (which, given her latest comment on Katen seems to have been a pure reaction test..?). I strongly dislike beastcharizard's vote on her. He hasn't mentioned her at all since way back in his first reads list (where he was leaning town on her) and while I empathize with a desire to avoid another no lynch, I think 2 days before deadline is too early to compromise. If she was unclaimed, I could see pro-town motivation in wanting to speed up a claim, but she's not. His lament that talah isn't getting lynched rings hollow since he hasn't even done the bare minimum to get a wagon on her going. The vote feels highly opportunistic to me. I've had a weak town read on him when I first read the game but I just had another look at his ISO and I don't think that's warranted anymore.

I also had another look at mlearn2, another weak town read that has gone stale. Burning Earth is seemingly sleep walking through the game and shows a complete lack of scumhunting drive, alignment curiosity and willingness to engage people. Looking back at the end of yesterday, I find it really hard to believe that he missed that we were really close to deadline.

I'd lynch either of those two over Katen or PA.

unvote, vote: Burning Earth

[CrashTextDummie]

Well this looks like a return to the bullshit of late Day 1 all over again.

The one constant from yesterday is the continued attempt to force a compromise lynch on Katen when it's clear the majority of players don't feel they are scum. The information argument is bullshit. Yes, a Katen lynch wouldn't be altogether terrible (not least of which because they will likely remain as lynchbait until they're dead) but I personally don't need the information of their flip to hunt and find scum. You are not the worst offender here because at least you branched out and forced a lynch out of PA before reverting back to Katen. Paschendale, SeeEmpty and Burning_Earth have been completely inert today. In the case of the former, it's worth pointing out that a confirmed innocent is arguably more of an asset than a threat to scum this early in the game if his reads are bad and he's pushing mislynches for them and this may have been a contributing factor to the TN kill. Burning_Earth's single-mindedness is hugely problematic considering he failed to contribute to a Katen lynch yesterday. At least SeeEmpty has consistency in his favor (his flipflop wrt to my Katen town case notwithstanding, which he has yet to address). Sheeping confirmed innocent Paschendale and near-universal town read talah is exactly what I'd expect scum to do in this situation and I'm convinced one or both of SeeEmpty/B_E are scum.

But keep at it and you may get your wish. I will move my vote to Katen if we get to less than 24 hours until deadline and no other wagon pulls ahead.

[CrashTextDummie]

Why it is *strategically* unsound to lynch Katen today, given the slot is always going to be in doubt

It is strategically unsound to lynch a player you believe is going to flip town.

Why Katen as a compromise is unacceptable

It's not.

Why you feel that no-lynching two days in a row is going to win this game for town

It's not.

Now can the people voting Katen explain why "reaching a consensus" is synonymous with "voting Katen" and why compromise for them is an entirely unilateral concept in this situation? Do you have a town read on B_E? Is he not an acceptable compromise? You are expecting people to go against their beliefs in supporting a bad lynch. That's more browbeating than compromise. A good compromise is a lynch on a player a majority of people agree has a better chance of flipping scum than town. Not a lynch forced through by a minority under threat of no lynch.

[CrashTextDummie]

Two days before deadline is not too late to build another wagon. B_E is only one vote behind Katen. There is time to force and assess a claim. A Katen lynch is strictly suboptimal in my opinion and there's no reason not to try to achieve a better lynch.

Just to be clear, I am not placing the blame for another potential standstill exclusively on Katen voters. Those not voting Katen can and should rally behind a more preferable lynch. I have already made it clear that I would support a Katen lynch over a PA lynch and have given my personal compromise deadline.

[CrashTextDummie]

Given your previous strategy of lynching a PR claim which was not counterclaimed Day 1, I think your strategy is pretty fucking sub-par. With all due respect.

Hindsight and all that. I did not have the privilege of knowing his claim was truthful and neither, might I add, did the townies among the Katen voters unwilling to switch. It was literally impossible for me to achieve any other lynch when it came down to it, Katen or otherwise, so my deadline play was in fact optimal and yours wasn't. A chance to lynch scum is better than no lynch at all and your whining about suboptimal play falls on deaf ears when you directly and implicitly contributed to yesterday's no lynch and are now making the exact same play expecting different results. With all due respect.

Burning Earth would be the minority lynch. Not Katen. As evidenced by votes and opinion.

Half the playerlist hasn't even checked in since he became a viable wagon.

[CrashTextDummie]

There are 3 person I'd lynch today: Katen, BE and BC. I'll be around before the deadline, so it'd be fine if a last minute switch is needed to prevent a no lynch. For now I'm keeping my vote at where it is.

The Katen wagon is severely stalled, has been for a long while and that won't change unless we remain deadlocked and people are forced to consolidate.

Whereas the BE wagon is fresh, has potential support from at least a couple of non voters who have expressed suspicion and would have to be pushed ahead

now

and not close to deadline.

Switching your vote would put BE ahead of Katen.

You are clearly not town.

[CrashTextDummie]

I did not refuse to compromise on Katen, quite the opposite in fact. The votes simply weren't there for me to secure a lynch.

I'm on the phone, otherwise I'd link you a recent game where I deadline lynched an uncounterclaimed doc on D1 and hit scum (Z Mafia I believe it was called if you want to look it up, a micro game). Lynching a claimed power role always carries the risk of being wrong, that doesn't mean you shouldn't do it if you doubt the claim. I'm not going to appologize for a bad read, that's part of the game. Your read was good and mine was bad, good for you. That doesn't mean my play was incorrect and yours wasn't.

It's worth pointing out that I'm already compomising right now. I'm not voting my top suspect. Compromise implies meeting somewhere in the middle, not me bending backwards to accomodate you. You are not looking for compromise, you're stubbornly trying o get your way.

[CrashTextDummie]

Is this going to be a thing between you and me, Justin, where we get close to deadline and you chastize me for my oh so terrible play?

Voting for someone who's not my preferred lynch is the definition of compromise. Picking between two undesireable wagons is damage control. I knew that there was enough support for a B_E lynch so that's the suspect I compromised on. Yes, I'm creating a situation where the town has to chose between Katen (or PA) and B_E instead of between Katen and PA. This does absolutely nothing to increase the danger of no lynch, as you are insinuating. I seriously question why you are trying to paint me as the no lynch devil here, as before the B_E wagon emerged, the situation was "sheep onto PA, settle for Katen or risk no lynch", i.e. the exact same deal with different names.

The fact that B_E is now at L-1, i.e. closer to lynch than anyone else today is proof that creating another, more preferrable wagon was viable in the time given and that the deadline fear mongering was premature.

[CrashTextDummie]

I was about to scream bloody murder at B_E's replace out, but looking at his recent site activity, I think it's probably alignment neutral. This is not the only game he just dropped out of and his engagement on the site seems to be low almost across the board. With the deadline extension, I'm willing to give muffinman some space to catch up and to give recent SeeEmpty suspectors a chance to put their money where their mouth is.

unvote, vote: SeeEmpty

[CrashTextDummie]

Well, stop coming in at the end of the day and playing so suspiciously and I will.

We have another 48 hours. How about you get this out of your system and actually make a case against me now? I'm curious which part of standing up for my reads, pro-actively trying (and succeeding) to create wagons on people that have an actual chance of flipping scum, trying my damnest to keep the town from lynching a player you now seem to agree is town, actually giving a damn what happens at the end of the day (contrast with SeeEmpty), etc. you find suspicious.

Same goes for Paschendale and talah.

[CrashTextDummie]

Your whole idea of I should be switching is just "you should sheep me so the wagon I'm on is the largest". Really?

The fact that I'm on the wagon myself has absolutely nothing to do with my issue and this is a pretty griveous distortion of what I said. I would have made the same argument if you had expressed willingnes to lynch PA.

Given the options of keeping the town at a standstill or moving the day forward, you chose the former. You expressed willingness to switch at the last minute (i.e. too late for claims, as yesterday showed) instead of helping to force a claim when there's still time to actually process it.

It doesn't really matter why the Katen wagon is stalled, the fact is it is stalled and you are doing preciously little to change that. Your meek announcement that you'd be willing to vote elsewhere but won't until the last minute certainly doesn't. How's tuat for unwillingness to compromise, talah et all?

There is absolutely no hustle from you to actually reach a desireable conclusion of the day and it was the same yesterday.

[CrashTextDummie]

VOTE: CrashTextDummie

What A Fucking Revelation About Burning As Soon As Muffin Replaces In.

Your point being? You were the one who unvoted PA as soon as she announced to drop out, so I'm sure you can empathize with a willingness to allow Muffin to catch up when B_E is explicitly

a compromise lynch

for me and lack of participation was a significant part of my issue with the slot.

We have additional time and I don't need Muffin to claim before he has gotten a word in, so my vote wasn't needed on the wagon anymore.

[CrashTextDummie]

You're right, talah, I'm not trying to integrate. Town integration either happens or it doesn't and is mostly a function of the playerlist and compatibility of playstyles.

Actively

trying to integrate is strongly scum motivated. Integration is not high on a townie's priority list (at least it's not on mine) but can prove vital for a scum's long term survival. So I'm not sure why you're pointing out my lack of integration as a flaw.

You're also right that I'm attempting to influence the town. I actively try to steer the town towards good lynches and away from bad lynches according to my reads.

It's a straight fact that I was not responsible for the no lynch yesterday and I don't know what more to tell you on that front. Would you feel the same way about my play at the end of yesterday if TN had claimed VT? In the absence of a claim, pushing him as a counterwagon was absolutely the right thing to do. After the claim, there was literally

nothing

in my power to achieve a different lynch. We have a theory disagreement on whether lynching a claimed PR is preferrable to no lynch. It's further compounded by the fact that I did not believe the claim to be truthful. As I mentioned, I have made this play in the past and I would make it again in a heartbeat if the situation came up again.

My reads are not a mystery. I have town reads on you, Katen, PA. I have scum reads of varying strength on SeeEmpty, beastcharizard, B_E. I've been pushing SeeEmpty all day and have made it clear he is my top suspect. The rest could go either way.

Instead of dismissing what I've had to say about SeeEmpty wholesale because you can't deal with my playstyle, could you please actually read and process it and tell me why I'm wrong? Thank you.

[CrashTextDummie]

Playfair, there's a difference between meaningful discussion and running someone up for a deadline lynch. And there's a difference between hammering (or trying to hammer) someone without a claim and disbelieving a claim. I did not "cast all of Pasch's suspicions of Katen as meta-based", I asked him to reconsider in light of wrongly applied meta. And are you not town reading Katen now? After all, you did cite an "extra reason" to think you were wrong yesterday, which implies the existence of several other reasons.

It's pretty rich how much word twisting and spin doctoring you have to do to construct an argument that I am bending the truth.

----------

MuffinMan has decent reads. I disagree that his predecessor's lack of voting at the end of D1 has no scum motivation. If Katen is town, both potential lynches were town and there's definitely scum motivation in not participating in either so as to not get your hands dirty. That the town failed to lynch either was hardly the expected result.

I think Muffin was spot on in calling out beastcharizard for prematurely calling him "very town" though and beastcharizard's response is a classic backpedal ("huge difference" my ass).

Despo looks pretty town to me these last couple of pages, Finglove not so much.

Muffin and Despo, what's stopping you from voting SeeEmpty? There's an existing wagon there that could be pushed to L-1 with your help and you both seem to be scum reading the slot. If it's between Katen and PA, I'd still lynch the former.

I'd also appreciate it if PA, Finglove etc. would explain their town reads on SeeEmpty, because I don't remember anyone doing it so far.

[CrashTextDummie]

Yes, and giving your case against someone and joining an existing strong wagon would fall under the discussion definition while trying to ramrod through a new wagon would fall under the definition of running someone up for a deadline lynch.

I made it clear at the time that my main issue with your manner of catching up was that you spent an inordinate amount of time on what basically amounted to small talk with your town reads before you bothered to do anything conducting to actually lynching someone and that by the end of that you ended up on an existing strong wagon on someone I think is town falls under my definition of opportunism if anything.

Here's that quote. I'm happy to have the actual words right here.

And where in that quote am I "casting all of Pasch's suspicions of Katen as meta-based"? Meta was the reason he gave for continuing his push against Katen once the site came back from the crash. Pardon me for thinking it was significant. I don't see how asking a player if the revelation that they've applied the wrong meta to a suspect changes anything isn't a reasonable inquiry.

And here's yet another example. See, because I like to be pretty clear I've posted exactly why I'm uncomfortable with voting Katen. One, which I think is shared by a lot of folks, is the weird voting at the end of the day yesterday and this morning. The other, which I think is just mine, is you. I've mentioned both in thread. But now I've implied "the existence of several other reasons". I haven't implied anything. I've stated it.

You are right. It was wrong for me to assume you were town reading Katen. I should have referenced your ISO. I just did that. Your stance throughout the day has been that Katen is still a scum read but that you are uncomfortable lynching them for the stated reason of "weird voting at the end of D1 and the beginning of D2". That "extra reason", I now gather, was a further reason to be uncomfortable lynching them. It looks an awful lot like you're trying to keep them around as lynch bait. Apologies for the confusion.

why do you think PA is town?

I think her manner of claiming was town. A VT claim doesn't accomplish anything other than to make her a more appealing target for a compromise lynch (which was what was being discussed) and I see strong town motivation in trying to speed up the decision making process. I don't disagree with your assessment of her play in general, particularly her D1 play. The issue is that I think she plays like that as either alignment. I've mislynched her in the past for play like that. That's the main reason I wasn't willing to commit to a read on her. I can't make heads or tails of her Katen push today and I'm having trouble seeing it as a legitimate town play, so there's an element of leap of faith to my read on her.

[CrashTextDummie]

Okay then.

unvote, vote: Katen

I'll be keeping an eye on the thread and will hammer PA if necessary.

[CrashTextDummie]

A lynch is a lynch, I suppose.

[CrashTextDummie]

I'm about to go to bed and I'd like to see this day wrapped up before I do, so I'm pulling the plug.

unvote, vote: penguin_alien

[CrashTextDummie]

Sorry for sleeping in.

My immediate thought upon reading beastcharizard's claim is that the safe option is to lynch him. If he's telling the truth, the vig then has a guaranteed kill on talah. If beastcharizard is fake claiming scum, it's a reasonable bet that he's bulletproof and that mislynching talah would be highly likely to lose the game.

I was undecided on whether the vig should claim today, but this development makes it obvious that he shouldn't.

Off to reread beastcharizard/talah.

[CrashTextDummie]

Talah, could you please state why you are dropping out? This is an incredibly odd course of events.

[CrashTextDummie]

No hammer please. There's something I want to address when I get home.

[CrashTextDummie]

Talah, could you please state why you are dropping out? This is an incredibly odd course of events.

afaict talah's replace out was a site-wide thing

That's reassuring.

With Talah being a goon that means scum can only have one bulletproof.

Other than yourself, you mean. Cause that's blatantly not true.

Once we lynch Talah and the vig shoots someone if no one turns up dead then we know the vig hit a BP scum and it is game over.

And how do we know who the vig tried to shoot if he's hit by scum tonight himself? I know you're trying to push the argument that scum would def kill you if we lynch talah, but we're not lynching talah.

That's the thing I wanted to discuss. Assuming beast will flip scum (which I find likely right now) and that he is indeed bulletproof, there's still the possibility of a second bulletproof scum. I'd like to set things up in such a way that even if the vig tries to kill BP scum and dies himself, we can treat his attempt as a guilty investigation. To that effect, I think everyone should make a statement along the lines of "If I were the vig, I'd shoot [...]" and for the actual vig to follow through with that. If beast is not scum, the point is moot since everyone would shoot talah and no harm is done. The only down side to this plan, as far as I can see, is that it could telegraph the identity of the vig to the scum depending on who dies if they don't know already.

I want to read back specifically for beast buddies, but as things stand I'd shoot SeeEmpty if I were the vig.

[CrashTextDummie]

Will post tonight.

[CrashTextDummie]

ctd

what did you want to talk about pre-hammer? just the "who would you vig?" thing or was there something else you wanted to talk about?

That was what I thought needed to be discussed before we end the day, yes. I also wanted an opportunity to reread, which I did. Also, I changed my mind, if beast flips scum, I'd shoot Justin Playfair if I were the vig.

Reconcile these please

What is there to reconcile? I don't advocate lynching without giving an opportunity to claim, which is what tn tried to do.

[CrashTextDummie]

Also I noticed CTD is missing again. Is he going to play the coming-in-last-minute-to-create-another-wagon game again? I'd not be surprised.

I am not missing and this is straight up mudslinging.

I don't think muffin has given a vig target. Other than that, I'm ready for the day to end.

If it turns out that talah is scum after all, it would turn my perception of this game on its head completely and I'd take a long hard look at Despo and Katen in particular.

[CrashTextDummie]

And so I eclipse Crash's number one suspect through all day yesterday and, based on his original vig pick, into today. My guess is Crash would like the vig to kill me because he thinks it would reflect on him poorly if he had to kill me himself.

I'd like the vig to kill whomever he announced he would kill. That's the entire point of this exercise.

SeeEmpty is a bad fit as a beastcharizard buddy. His vote on him today (over say Katen, who was his top suspect all game long) makes little sense if they are scum together. I also don't think that they've historically played like scum buddies.

It was between you and Muffin for me.

To summarize:
Playfair vigs Katen
Despo vigs SeeEmpty
Katen vigs SeeEmpty
SeeEmpty vigs CTD
Not_Mafia vigs Katen
CTD vigs Playfair
Muffin vigs SeeEmpty?

Pretty good spread. This would have been a hammer post, but Muffin gets time to read. Feel free to hammer when you're done.

[CrashTextDummie]

It's SeeEmpty or Muffin and we have two lynches. Beast flipping traitor largely nullifies my doubts re: SeeEmpty scum read.

Want to hear from SingerSinger before we lynch though.

[CrashTextDummie]

Cliff notes:

- Katen/singersinger very likely not scum because Playfair's push against them on D1 really doesn't look like a bus and for a host of other reasons (like pointing out a non-obvious town tell on talah, who is confirmed not to be a Katen buddy).
- Not_Mafia very likely not scum because the slot has looked town all game and beastcharizard tried to lynch the slot with his gambit which would have likely won the game for scum if he had succeeded.
- CTD confirmed vig.

Scum therefore is either SeeEmpty (who has looked like scum to me all game) or Muffin (who's predecessor looked like possible scum). We can afford to lynch both.

In the interest of full disclosure and since a post-game reveal wouldn't diminish my embarrassment, I actually killed TN on N1, so it's possible Finglove prevented a scum kill that night. I tried to look for crumbs on who he targeted after his flip but didn't find any, maybe someone else has better luck. Not that it's likely to matter much.

[CrashTextDummie]

Still wondering why you shot Finglove.

Two reasons, one of which was his first post of D1 and subsequent speculation on the TN kill. It didn't make sense to me that an uninformed town person would question that kill and it looked to me like a fishing attempt to sniff out the vig by scum who had their shot (on Paschendale) blocked. Turns out he probably wondered if he had blocked a scum kill himself and I misinterpreted it and took his PR tell for a scum tell. Whoops. Second reason was to make a kill that was unlikely to be traced back to me, i.e. to invite the question you're asking, and it seems to have worked.

We are assuming that the scum mistook Despo for the vig, right? That they had role copped neither myself nor Despo, distrusted their traitor's read on me and thought Despo was trying to throw them off his trail with his twilight posting? I'd like some feedback on this because it's kind of a mystifying to me that they didn't put two and two together.

I'm actually open to the idea of lynching Muffin today. I think his level of engagement has been pretty lackluster across all players occupying the slot, Burning_Earth in particular was scummy, and he fits decently as a Playfair buddy. Most damning though is beastcharizards treatment of the slot on D1, voting him early in the day, maintaining a scum read but being unwilling to join the wagon when it actually had momentum, even going so far as proposing a SeeEmpty wagon instead on whom he had little to say previously. And then when Muffin replaced into the game, he immediately complimented him for "very town" play, like he was itching to town read the slot.

I'll do some more reading, since SeeEmpty has been a scum read forever and I want to remind myself why that was.

[CrashTextDummie]

Mod: Could you please confirm whether the two main members of the mafia knew the identity of their unrecruited traitor? The role PMs posted would indicate so, but the Wiki page does not. Appreciated.

[CrashTextDummie]

I'd like to hear some feedback from singersinger if she was serious about wanting to do some reading. Fresh pair of eyes and all that.

[CrashTextDummie]

CTD halp me interpret all of the things. What do you make of the preliminary reads list both scum posted?


CTD halp me interpret all of the things. What do you make of the preliminary reads list both scum posted?

I was kind of hoping you'd be helping me. Maybe color coding (and adding in blanks) will help.

Town:

Pasch

Talah
Kat

Leaning town:
mlearn2

p_a

null:

Desperado
Finglove

SeeEmpty

leaning scum:

PiM

voidwalker

scum:

tn

From personal experience, I know that playing traitor is tricky business, and placing your buddies on reads lists is awkward. He had Playfair's slot as leaning scum and I think he'd want to read at least one of the scum as town or town leaning, so I think SeeEmpty actually looks decent here. What this list mostly highlights is how utterly bizarre his turn against Talah was.

My personal current order (outside of Pasch) would be, from least to most scummy:

Talah
SeeEmpty

penguin_alien
Desperado
finglove

mlearn2

beastcharizard

Voidwalker
tn5421

Katengecchi

Muffin's slot is smack dab in the middle of the list, which is a classic spot to put your buddy. It's an inexact science, but I certainly don't think SeeEmpty is implicated here either. Why did you think so?

In terms of interactions with Playfair, Muffin looks worse to me, particularly on D2.

We're under two hours here. Is anyone really comfortable with no-lynch? Burning Earth, is that what your unvote with no new vote means?

Potentially realizing his buddy would look bad and trying to prod him to prevent that.

Burning Earth, we're under an hour and clearly you didn't like Crash's argument or you wouldn't have taken your vote off tn. That would get us to within one.

Same. He gave the appearance on D2 that he found B_E's behavior here problematic, but it doesn't show yet.

Can you name me some non-powerful PRs?

We'll start with gooncop

Why do you believe a gooncop would be non-powerful in this game?

Still not yet though. He was zoning in on PA.

Also:

Instead of a half-hearted excuse, I'd actually like Burning Earth to outline his thought process and motivation in unvoting the leading wagon and disappearing from the thread with 2 hours to go until deadline.

I would like this too. Very much.

There we go. It's notable to me that he didn't pick this up himself and waited to address this until someone else (me in this case) brought it up. It's a throwaway line in the grand scheme of things where his B_E suspicion is concerned, so definitely feels like it could be distancing.

I like Talah and to a lesser degree SeeEmpty as town.

My gray area, from lightest to darkest is Finglove/Desperado/Crash/Earth/Beast

Curious that B_E surpassed even myself, with whom he argued a hell of a lot more. There's no telling whether he was reading Beast as his traitor here, but probably not. Given B_E's play, that definitely looks like the spot you'd want to put your partner in.

Instead you followed penguin onto Burning Earth. As the second and third votes. Now you might call that a lot of things, but in this situation you certainly can't call it compromise in search of assuring a lynch. In this situation, in fact, it is operatively the exact opposite. A real compromise would have all but assured a lynch of either penguin or katen. You have instead created a situation where unless town is willing to sheep this move you and penguin have made or settle for katen, we get no lynch at all.

Chastising two town players for trying to create a counter wagon to Katen and PA, almost certainly two town wagons. This feels like a pretty underhanded way of trying to put the breaks on a B_E wagon (who was his second darkest grey, mind you).

Time to claim Earth, and to share any last thoughts. This time tomorrow, if nothing else happens, I'll be hammering you. We're not going to no-lynch two days in a row, and as much worse as I think penguin's vote was yours was bad enough and you haven't done anything today to help your cause.

Earth, get in here and say your piece.

Distinct flavor of "if you're not gonna help yourself, I can't help you either."

My vote stays on penguin for now, though. Her behavior around the voting was still more suspicious than BE's, and as near as I can tell we have three wagons with three votes each at the moment. Can't see how adding a fourth at this point would be helpful.

Muffing replaced in and diffused the situation, which Justin doesn't actually acknowledge at all, other than to go back to business as usual. This is actually the last mention of Muffin in his ISO, other than a short bit of interaction where he answers a question.

Overall, I don't get the feeling that he was trying to build up the Muffin slot as a mislynch later on (despite keeping him towards the top of his suspects), or as a potential lynchpin, or as anything else that would indicate Muffin-town. When the slot actually looked like a viable lynch, he was resisting at first before resigning himself. It all looks very scum buddyish to me.

In contrast, he had SeeEmpty as a top town read for practically the whole game, didn't interact at all with him and went out of his way to defend him at a point where he was no where near under the threat of lynch (not that he ever really was until today), and that all looks like buddying a townie who wasn't really problematic in terms of reads.

I'll do this for beastcharizard and both SeeEmpty/Muffin. I realize it probably doesn't matter much, but I recently finished a game where things looked as obvious and rushing cost town the game. So bear with me, please.

[CrashTextDummie]

As an aside, if Muffin is town, he's handling today terribly. SeeEmpty is not really "twisting" anything, he's echoing concerns that I share. I can't tell if Muffin slipped with the whole BP business, but his excuse of "I didn't know the set-up" is a pretty sorry one. For one, it doesn't reflect well on him as far as his engagement (again, even though he denies it) and pro town drive is concerned. Secondly, I find it kind of hard to believe. In the situation we were in, knowing the set up was kind of crucial and I'd expect every member of the town to check up on it at a minimum.

I also think that SeeEmpty's shtick of wanting assurance that the surviving town members will lynch Muffin reads as genuine and altruistic, whereas Muffin looks like he just wants to make it into tomorrow.

More to come.

[CrashTextDummie]

I'm very pleased with this game, particularly with the fact that I managed to redeem my, shall we say successful attempts to diminish the role cop's power. Ahem.

Apart from TN, my reads were actually pretty spot on this game (town reads on Katen, PA, Despo in particular) and sometime during D3, things just feel into place for me. Once I arrived at Playfair scum, the entire game just made an extraordinary amount of sense. Props to Desperado for soaking up that kill, though I'm not entirely sure whether it was because of his twilight posts or if I just managed to confuse the scum team completely by killing Finglove. By the looks of it, they never even considered that I might be the vig for some reason.

Pretty solid town effort, I think, D1 no-lynch notwithstanding.

First shared town win with PA, I believe. About damn time.