Open 557: Deck of Stacks [Game Over]

[Cheery Dog]

Votecount 2.12

zMuffinMan 

(3) Desperado, penguin_alien, Finglove

SeeEmpty

(3) CrashTextDummie, beastcharizard, Katengecchi

Katengecchi

(2) SeeEmpty, Paschendale

penguin_alien

(1) Justin Playfair

CrashTextDummie

(1) talah

Not Voting

(1) zMuffinMan 


With 11 Alive, 6 vote are required to lynch
Deadline: Sunday, June 8, 2014, at 10:30 PM EDT (UTC-4), which is in (expired on 2014-06-08 22:30:35)

[Finglove]

Sorry I've let this slip, will look through the accusations I can see from my phone and reply later today.

[Finglove]

Ok, Desp, I have no idea where that all came from. I wasn't buddying you, but at the time I posted my NK spec you were involved in a big argument and it would have been unhelpful not to comment on that in some way.

I have a townread on see empty so I won't be moving to that lynch. If PA becomes a possibility I will move back there. I'll do my best to keep an eye on this so we don't NL again.

[SeeEmpty]

@Finglove: I have some questions for you in my post #638. I'll post it here again.

So you don't want to see Katen lynch today solely because "they're too neatly giftwrapped"? Tell me:

1: do you read them as scum or town?
2: when do you think a Katen lynch is "the right time" if you're now reading them as scum?

[talah]

UNVOTE: Crash
VOTE: Katen

Consider my vote proxied to you Pasch.

[zMuffinMan]

I don't see why that can't be the case

do you actually think that's the case?

can you do a summary/rehash of where you're at with reads / why? coz i'm looking over your D2 posts and it's not _really_ clear what your reasoning for your reads is. i think you had my slot as scum for... unvoting at the end of D1 and gut voting someone you're apparently scum reading (dunno if i'm missing something here)? i'm not entirely sure what your reasons for the katen read are. and i don't really know where you're currently at with other reads

At this point I'd vote Finglove if Muffin keeps being townish.

wait, what? you're not interested in the fact that i have you as scum?

[Paschendale]

Fing opens up NK discussion but doesn't lead with any read or conclusion, just speculation. Pasch brings it up first, I agree with it, Fing talks about some other setup spec first and then comes in with his hard katen-town. He even says he's agreeing with me. That's what I was talking about with the buddying.

As the day has gone on, and I have given it more consideration, I have changed my position over the Katen lynch. It looked too easy at the beginning, but then Katen has continued to be consistently anti-town. And it is not unreasonable to suspect a gambit to protect their buddy. Trying to second guess scum's choice of kills with so little information is not likely to get us to the right place.

UNVOTE: Crash
VOTE: Katen

Consider my vote proxied to you Pasch.

I wouldn't do that. I may be confirmed town, but I'm not magically right. Vote along with me if you think I'm right.

@Finglove: I have some questions for you in my post #638. I'll post it here again.

So you don't want to see Katen lynch today solely because "they're too neatly giftwrapped"? Tell me:

1: do you read them as scum or town?
2: when do you think a Katen lynch is "the right time" if you're now reading them as scum?

Everyone should answer this. Townreads on Katen seem few and far between. As above, don't try to outguess scum. If Katen seems scummy, and they do, vote for them.

[zMuffinMan]

eh while i think saying katen is town because tn was NKed is a shit reason to think katen is town, i think katen is more than likely town via play

remind me why you think katen is scum

[zMuffinMan]

anyway, re: PA

i had a gut scum read on her starting with 75. 3 pages of stuff had happened at that point, there was a decent amount of stuff to comment on (like the tn-talah back-and-forth) but rather than doing anything like that, she comes in and asks a rather pointless question that doesn't have any other purpose than discrediting katen. further, i think this question is aimed at 73 and i don't really see how that was undermining pasch, so this looks like nothing more than a pot shot.

i didn't really like 124 at all. it was a wall of stuff that was designed to look like content but there was very little actual content in there. like outside of the town reads she gave on pim and seeempty (which, tbh, felt like kind of a cop-out), the massive wall of commentary in the middle of that post contains no real opinions and the questions she asks there aren't going to help discern someone's alignment in any way. the tone of this posts just reads as a going-through-the-motions commentary with no drive to find scum. there's a complete lack of stances and it's not a town post at all. i mean, granted, it's still fairly early in the game, but this is the kind of post i'd expect from scum looking to fake content rather than town thinking this sort of post is a worthwhile contribution.

i have mixed feelings on 126. these are the kind of questions i could potentially see coming from town-PA but they're also just really easy things to ask about so not really hard for scum to come up with

the reasoning in 138 for the whole talah stuff felt a lot like scum buddying. first, if talah got run up for similar play in another game, then katen's reaoning for suspecting talah was null at best <- it's something PA knows has been pushed by town players before, even if scum can latch onto it too. it's also a cheap way to get out of committing to an actual read on talah at this point, which probably wouldn't be that big a deal except that she's using katen's push on talah as a primary reason for scum reading katen. when katen points out that it's a pretty bad reason for a scum read in the next post, PA responds in 180 by shrugging it off and saying town should work with IC! (as though scum have any more reason to want to pick a fight with an IC). overall this whole push on katen felt really weak and, again, while it's early stages of the game, this whole thing just felt like scum seeing an easy target coming under pressure and latching onto it (which is kinda ironic given the stance on talah). rather than critically thinking about it, she just calls katen scum and makes the evidence fit the conclusion, even when it doesn't make a lot of sense.

the other issue i have with the katen read here is that she just coasts on it for the rest of the day and doesn't really do a whole lot of anything (i mean there's a reads lists in 287 kinda... if you squint really hard, i guess? outside of the mostly unexplained town reads and the scum read on katen, it's basically void of stances, just more commentary). like... even apart from the fact that it was a fairly meh reason for scum reading katen in the first place, the read felt static rather than taking in new information. that's not a town thought process.

mixed feelings re: 401. this and a couple other posts like it D2 (e.g. 497) i could potentially see coming from town-PA, i guess. it's a reach out to CTD about some past game, which is pretty cocky if scum? i dunno. it's the kind of thing i'm likely to do as scum but i'm not really sure whether PA is the kind of player to try and manipulate based on meta like that when she's scum.

i *think* the tn5421 in 407 was a compromise vote? or something? don't really know. given how her last mention of tn was that tn was unlikely scum with the only scum read she'd really given all game, this vote felt really out of place

D2 continues with more of the same pushing katen while not really doing a lot of anything else. this continues 'til 572 where she unvotes katen, followed by 599 where she explains she was apparently scum reading katen incorrectly because of mistaking who saki was (though there was never really any mention of saki meta in her push on katen so i'm thinking this was made up after the fact). i guess the backtracking on the katen read could maybe come from town-PA? maybe? but there's a severe lack of (god i hate this word and i hate myself even more for using it) "trajectory" on how / where / why that read changed from scum to town.

the vote on my slot could, i guess, make some sense based on previous stuff she'd said about my slot, but this felt like the same thing she did at the end of D1. at the point i replaced in, it looks like it was me or katen. if katen is actually town, i think this is just PA going all buddy-buddy on katen and latching onto another mislynch because it really didn't matter which lynch happened as long as it wasn't a scum lynch.

also not really sure why she thinks my entrance so far has looked town when i've explicitly called her scum and i haven't really produced all that much content yet. why is she not interested in that or the least bit curious about that? further, the alternative lynch she'd apparently be fine with today (finglove) is... not really mentioned at all in her ISO. like i get that she's not been very engaged in the game lately but there's zero progression on this read

[zMuffinMan]

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[zMuffinMan]

I will let you keep reading and find out Talah is scum for yourself

ok. so i'm caught up on the thread and i don't know why you think talah is scum. like disregarding the fact i think she looks far more likely to be town than scum, i cannot actually find where you've explained your talah read (like you gave a kinda weak reason when you voted her the second time, but i can't find anything else)

why do you think talah is scum? and what are your other reads atm?

[Desperado]

Unvote
Vote: Penguin_Alien

[Justin Playfair]

Two days before deadline is not too late to build another wagon.

We have another 48 hours. How about you get this out of your system and actually make a case against me now?

Really? Because when I posted my case and made my vote against Katen on day one you posted this:

the people you didn't suspect first, an odd choice I might add, and then worked your way through the list slowly enough that by the time you got to any actual suspects the deadline was close enough that the time for any meaningful discussion had passed.

Newsflash. That was more than forty-eight hours before deadline too. Of course I was only expressing my opinions for joining an existing wagon, not creating a brand new one.

And really, Crash, so far in this game that's been you in a nutshell. There's no objective fact that's safe in your postings. Clearly, not even time.

And your posts are full of this sort of thing. Look at this, posted after tn's admittedly awful attempted hammering of Katen:

Hammering a potential power role is towards the top of the list of hurtful things you can do to a town. There is literally no town motivation to explain his hammer attempt but there is tremendous scum motivation.

But after tn claims close to deadline:

Paschendale, if you can't see that that's a fake claim, you're willfully blind. That goes for everyone, you're just the only one who has posted postclaim.

And in fact let's put this one is absolutely bold relief:

Crash, think about how tn has acted throughout the day. How he has responded to every push, every disagreement. Are you really willing to dismiss his claim wholesale at this point, considering the possible implications to town?

I think he has played a scum game through and through and I've expressed why when I placed my vote, though in not that many words.

So..."Hammering a potential power role is towards the top of the list of hurtful things you can do to a town. There is literally no town motivation to explain his hammer attempt but there is tremendous scum motivation"...unless you're the one fighting to get town to do it.

It gets better, though. Because then we get this:

Hindsight and all that. I did not have the privilege of knowing his claim was truthful and neither, might I add, did the townies among the Katen voters unwilling to switch. It was literally impossible for me to achieve any other lynch when it came down to it, Katen or otherwise, so my deadline play was in fact optimal and yours wasn't. A chance to lynch scum is better than no lynch at all and your whining about suboptimal play falls on deaf ears when you directly and implicitly contributed to yesterday's no lynch and are now making the exact same play expecting different results. With all due respect.

But according to you...to your explicitly expressed philosophy it was wrong to hammer tn immediately after he had made that claim. He was more than a potential power role. He was a claimed one. And by definition...by the very results we have...it is clear that the result achieved, in this case, was better than what would have been achieved had we lynched tn. Because if we had lynched tn the scum wouldn't have had to spend their night kill on him. The fact that you still seem angry that tn wasn't lynched...that you go so far as to still claim that your deadline play was optimal and Talah's wasn't...can only speak to one of two things. Scum, or an ego so out of control that it's getting in the way of town finding scum.

And there have been a lot of things about which you've tried to distort the truth, or more accurately slide the truth to a place where it more neatly fits your purposes. You tried to cast all of Pasch's suspicions of Katen as meta-based. You've tried to recast me being less willing to lynch Katen today because of your and the voting hijinks as me now having a townread on her. I'll just link to my posts here and here for the way you tried to cast your activities around the BE wagon.

So far in this game, Crash, you've treated the truth as something that changes according to what you need it to be. And that's pretty much the biggest scumtell there is.

[Justin Playfair]

My vote stays on penguin for now, though. Her behavior around the voting was still more suspicious than BE's, and as near as I can tell we have three wagons with three votes each at the moment. Can't see how adding a fourth at this point would be helpful.

[CrashTextDummie]

Playfair, there's a difference between meaningful discussion and running someone up for a deadline lynch. And there's a difference between hammering (or trying to hammer) someone without a claim and disbelieving a claim. I did not "cast all of Pasch's suspicions of Katen as meta-based", I asked him to reconsider in light of wrongly applied meta. And are you not town reading Katen now? After all, you did cite an "extra reason" to think you were wrong yesterday, which implies the existence of several other reasons.

It's pretty rich how much word twisting and spin doctoring you have to do to construct an argument that I am bending the truth.

----------

MuffinMan has decent reads. I disagree that his predecessor's lack of voting at the end of D1 has no scum motivation. If Katen is town, both potential lynches were town and there's definitely scum motivation in not participating in either so as to not get your hands dirty. That the town failed to lynch either was hardly the expected result.

I think Muffin was spot on in calling out beastcharizard for prematurely calling him "very town" though and beastcharizard's response is a classic backpedal ("huge difference" my ass).

Despo looks pretty town to me these last couple of pages, Finglove not so much.

Muffin and Despo, what's stopping you from voting SeeEmpty? There's an existing wagon there that could be pushed to L-1 with your help and you both seem to be scum reading the slot. If it's between Katen and PA, I'd still lynch the former.

I'd also appreciate it if PA, Finglove etc. would explain their town reads on SeeEmpty, because I don't remember anyone doing it so far.

[Justin Playfair]

Oh Crash.

Playfair, there's a difference between meaningful discussion and running someone up for a deadline lynch.

Yes, and giving your case against someone and joining an existing strong wagon would fall under the discussion definition while trying to ramrod through a new wagon would fall under the definition of running someone up for a deadline lynch.

I did not "cast all of Pasch's suspicions of Katen as meta-based", I asked him to reconsider in light of wrongly applied meta.

Here's that quote. I'm happy to have the actual words right here.

It seems like meta was a significant part of why you thought Katen are scum. Seeing as you evidently drew from misapplied meta, why are you still convinced they're going to flip scum?

And are you not town reading Katen now? After all, you did cite an "extra reason" to think you were wrong yesterday, which implies the existence of several other reasons.

And here's yet another example. See, because I like to be pretty clear I've posted exactly why I'm uncomfortable with voting Katen. One, which I think is shared by a lot of folks, is the weird voting at the end of the day yesterday and this morning. The other, which I think is just mine, is you. I've mentioned both in thread. But now I've implied "the existence of several other reasons". I haven't implied anything. I've stated it.

It's pretty rich how much word twisting and spin doctoring you have to do to construct an argument that I am bending the truth.

I quoted you. Those are your words laying up there, right next to each other. I put them there, so folks could read them for themselves and decide, with the evidence in front of them, whether or not they agreed with me. I could not twist your words because I quoted them. This doesn't even make sense.

[zMuffinMan]

If Katen is town, both potential lynches were town and there's definitely scum motivation in not participating in either so as to not get your hands dirty

yeah, that doesn't actually make any sense if you think about it logically but i don't really care to argue this point right now unless it's important

There's an existing wagon there that could be pushed to L-1 with your help and you both seem to be scum reading the slot

if PA wagon doesn't happen, i probably will join that wagon

If it's between Katen and PA, I'd still lynch the former

why do you think PA is town?

[CrashTextDummie]

Yes, and giving your case against someone and joining an existing strong wagon would fall under the discussion definition while trying to ramrod through a new wagon would fall under the definition of running someone up for a deadline lynch.

I made it clear at the time that my main issue with your manner of catching up was that you spent an inordinate amount of time on what basically amounted to small talk with your town reads before you bothered to do anything conducting to actually lynching someone and that by the end of that you ended up on an existing strong wagon on someone I think is town falls under my definition of opportunism if anything.

Here's that quote. I'm happy to have the actual words right here.

And where in that quote am I "casting all of Pasch's suspicions of Katen as meta-based"? Meta was the reason he gave for continuing his push against Katen once the site came back from the crash. Pardon me for thinking it was significant. I don't see how asking a player if the revelation that they've applied the wrong meta to a suspect changes anything isn't a reasonable inquiry.

And here's yet another example. See, because I like to be pretty clear I've posted exactly why I'm uncomfortable with voting Katen. One, which I think is shared by a lot of folks, is the weird voting at the end of the day yesterday and this morning. The other, which I think is just mine, is you. I've mentioned both in thread. But now I've implied "the existence of several other reasons". I haven't implied anything. I've stated it.

You are right. It was wrong for me to assume you were town reading Katen. I should have referenced your ISO. I just did that. Your stance throughout the day has been that Katen is still a scum read but that you are uncomfortable lynching them for the stated reason of "weird voting at the end of D1 and the beginning of D2". That "extra reason", I now gather, was a further reason to be uncomfortable lynching them. It looks an awful lot like you're trying to keep them around as lynch bait. Apologies for the confusion.

why do you think PA is town?

I think her manner of claiming was town. A VT claim doesn't accomplish anything other than to make her a more appealing target for a compromise lynch (which was what was being discussed) and I see strong town motivation in trying to speed up the decision making process. I don't disagree with your assessment of her play in general, particularly her D1 play. The issue is that I think she plays like that as either alignment. I've mislynched her in the past for play like that. That's the main reason I wasn't willing to commit to a read on her. I can't make heads or tails of her Katen push today and I'm having trouble seeing it as a legitimate town play, so there's an element of leap of faith to my read on her.

[zMuffinMan]

A VT claim doesn't accomplish anything other than to make her a more appealing target for a compromise lynch (which was what was being discussed) and I see strong town motivation in trying to speed up the decision making process

maybe, though depending on what the setup is, VT may be the only actual safe claim scum can actually do. as for speeding up the decision making process, i can kind of understand what you're getting at but to me it just looks like a move she'd do regardless of her alignment

(as a side point - somewhat theory-related - i don't think VT claims are as bad as you make them out to be. i've seen far too many games where someone has said, "scum are unlikely to claim VT in X situation" only for them to actually be scum. and if PA actually is scum here, this will just be another example of it)

[Katengecchi]

You're right, he'd be deliberately positioning himself against it (but only after the IC and another townie said it first).

I don't understand what this means. Are you agreeing with me or disagreeing?


zMM's huge wall is a townpost and I'm sold on PA again. I prefer Empty, but I guarantee I'll be around at deadline to switch if that doesn't go through. I won't be lynching anyone else unless it's to prevent another NL.

-Koromo

[Desperado]

I don't understand what this means. Are you agreeing with me or disagreeing?

I'm agreeing that he's not doing what you appear to expect scum to be doing, but I'm disagreeing that that means he's town. Scum can and should take different tracks when there's a metaphorical fork in the road, and a Penguin/SeeEmpty/Finglove team fits pretty nicely with that in mind.

[Finglove]

@Finglove: I have some questions for you in my post #638. I'll post it here again.

So you don't want to see Katen lynch today solely because "they're too neatly giftwrapped"? Tell me:

1: do you read them as scum or town?
2: when do you think a Katen lynch is "the right time" if you're now reading them as scum?

Most honestly, they're close to null for me. I don't put undue faith in my D1 scum hunting so even if I had a scum read after that, I'd be very reluctant to lynch then today. I find I'm much more effective when I focus on flips and NK activity than post-analysis.

[Cheery Dog]

Votecount 2.13

penguin_alien

(3) Justin Playfair, zMuffinMan , Desperado

SeeEmpty

(3) CrashTextDummie, beastcharizard, Katengecchi

Katengecchi

(3) SeeEmpty, Paschendale, talah

zMuffinMan 

(2) penguin_alien, Finglove

Not Voting

(0)


With 11 Alive, 6 vote are required to lynch
Deadline: Sunday, June 8, 2014, at 10:30 PM EDT (UTC-4), which is in (expired on 2014-06-08 22:30:35)

[Finglove]

I probably won't be around between now and the deadline, so I should move to a bigger wagon. Of the three big wagons, PA is still the scummiest for me so

VOTE: PA

[Paschendale]

eh while i think saying katen is town because tn was NKed is a shit reason to think katen is town, i think katen is more than likely town via play

remind me why you think katen is scum

Shit arguments, unnecessary self-focus, not actually helping find scum at all. Katen has a very us vs them mindset, which makes sense for someone who knows who their allies and enemies are.

So far in this game, Crash, you've treated the truth as something that changes according to what you need it to be. And that's pretty much the biggest scumtell there is.

This. Oh so much. Also associative tells based on Katen wagon, but those are soft without a flip. CAN WE PLEASE GET A KATEN FLIP!?

zMM's huge wall is a townpost and I'm sold on PA again. I prefer Empty, but I guarantee I'll be around at deadline to switch if that doesn't go through. I won't be lynching anyone else unless it's to prevent another NL.

See? This is not a person with actual theories. This is a person trying to go with the flow and not stand out. Katen fights for nothing. Katen stands for nothing. Please lynch this.