Open 576: The Enemy of my Enemy is my...Enemy? (Day 2)
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Mathdino Survivor
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VOTE: Teen Girl Squad
because dinosaurs eat teen girls.-
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Mathdino Survivor
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I was kinda hoping I'd be able to put in more effort D1.
UNVOTE: TGS
VOTE: Astinus-
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Mathdino Survivor
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UNVOTE: Astinus
Let's wait for mastin, Nova, and Riabi to check in, shall we?
I'd prefer not to let scum deprive us of basic D1 discussion.-
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No, but he's at L-1 and it's better safe than sorry when it comes to derphammers. I don't know most people around here so I don't know skill levels, and there are surely a lot of players who would quickhammer as town.-
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Mathdino Survivor
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Fun, first game with mastin and she sextuple-posts xD.
@mastin: Useful questions but I can't really answer many of them; haven't played that many games really. My wiki's kept updated, although I didn't feel like putting this game in because it was abandoned and mostly consists of me translating a post restriction and bickering with scum about setup. I want to make a rule not to self-meta anything recent (at least not in gameposts, so you can make what you will of my play. That said, I played my first 3 games like shit and that was over a year ago, so I think an ISO of Mini 1617 will give you a better impression.
I'm confused as to your read on Astinus. He literally said what he did may not be helpful to VTs, when that's the only town role in the game. Explain?
Oh, yeah, and can someone please get Astinus off L-1 on friggin page 3? Thanks.-
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What in the world...
VOTE: Oilura
The simple act of townreading someone is not indicative of alignment. Why aren't you asking Astinus those questions instead of mastin? I really don't like how you're voting someone just so they answer a question. Also you're reeking of OMGUS.
Oh, yeah, and your votes need to be on a separate line.-
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Oilura, can you please unvote Astinus? This mod isn't counting votes/unvotes unless they're on separate lines.
You're misrepping hard. "confirmed town" isn't "pretty sure this is town".
Lemme ask you something: Do you really think Astinus's scumpartner would be dumb enough to out himself/herself on the 3rd page by being the only one to townread her? Second: Do you really think mastin would be able to stop an Astinus lynch by saying "Pretty sure this is town"? I'm not going to answer for her but put yourself in mastin's shoes for a sec.-
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Dude, you just did it again... votes must be on separate lines...
And did you seriously just go after someone for their mental state...
I'm having difficulty not indirectly insulting you for that. That's literally the worst meta argument I've ever heard.-
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In post 78, Teen Girl Squad wrote:This looks like a "too scummy to actually be scum" argument. Which I mean, I get, I don't think scum would be so obvious most of the time, but it's still a fallacy. If it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck it's probably scum and you should lynch that duck, or however that phrase goes.
I'm kind of confused about how you actually feel about Astinus? You said you doubted she was scum at first, and that you think she's misguided town, but you're also saying that she needed more pressure? When she was at L-1...?
What about some of the other unvotes that happened, mine and Fink's, do you find those suspicious, too?
I think I should note here that basically everyone except Astinus's partner are probably going to want to lynch her, and this this definitely the stage where bussing her is the optimal move for said partner; she's pretty much doomed at this point. 2birds1stone's analysis is very much not indicative of alignment, IMO.
@2birds1stone/whoever-else-accused-me-of-fishy-unvoting: It's called not wanting to shut down vital D1 discussion. Lynching Astinus right now, even if she's confirmed scum, helps no one but the other scumteam.
@Astinus: I actually lol'd at your last post.
Last thoughts: Fink seems town. TGS seems town. guille seems town (by his 2nd post, still no idea where mastin got the read from, haha).-
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In post 106, 2birds1stone wrote:I'm not sure I like your certainty in the face of this level of craziness. Any claim that amounts to "I'm not town" obviously needs to be lynched, but I have no idea how anyone can be as confident as you are.
And I'm not sure I like how quickly you're trying to lynch her. There are 3 more scum, and either 1 or 2 perspectives that are going to die tonight. Just because we're going to lynch Astinus doesn't mean we have to do itright now. All it does is help the other scumteam get a free pass today for not contributing.
Also, Astinus has a partner assuming she's scum. Keeping the day going gives us more to analyse come D2.
D1 quicklynch has never benefited any town.-
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Mathdino Survivor
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Mastin, what are your thoughts on Oilura's posts on page 1?-
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I went through the wiki and I can't find what Astinus is talking about, but I do recall this lovely thread about self-voting and when it can be helpful.
tl;dr It says it's never helpful as town and only helpful as scum.
I welcome Astinus to show us her findings, but at the moment it looks like she's referencing something that she thought told her to self-vote as scum.-
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Mathdino Survivor
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I forgot to mention this, but I believe Astinus is trying to avoid claiming town because she's afraid the other scumteam will NK her and has a huge misconception of how multiball works.
Astinus is pretty much confirmed scum, mastin. Not because of self-voting but because there's no reason for town to act that way. Think.-
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Mathdino Survivor
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Oilura, what's your opinion on the relation between TGS and mastin then?-
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Mathdino Survivor
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Please let me know if I'm crazy, because I know practically nothing about multiball games, especially situations like this. I came up with a possible plan though.
Let's say Astinus is part of scumteam 1. I think it's a reasonable assumption to make that basically the entire game except mastin thinks Astinus is scum (please correct me if I'm wrong).
What if town decided to outright refuse to lynch her indefinitely? That would give team 2 a choice, of whether or not to kill Astinus, and on what night.
A. Team 2 don't kill Astinus at all. Assuming town follows through on its promise, Astinus survives to LyLo and unless both team 2 players survive, either team 1 wins or scum ends up shooting each other and loses.
B. Team 2 kills Astinus on N1. Game continues as usual.
C. Team 2 DOESN'T kill Astinus on N1, instead opting to wait it out and hope town lynches her (and then kill her on N2 if not). Why is this not optimal? Because if town gets lucky and lynches the other team 1 player, team 1 gets a kill they would not have otherwise gotten, which is detrimental to team 2.
Therefore, optimal play means team 2 must kill Astinus N1 or risk getting shot later on. This benefits the town because it allows mafia to do our dirty work, saves a NK on a very towny player, and practically gives us another day since we get to use the lynch on someone else.
Let's say Astinus is really really really dumb town, and town refuses to lynch her.
Well, since there's a gigantic chance Astinus is scum, and since optimal play for both teams is to shoot her, both teams end up shooting her. This benefits the town even more because it uses BOTH team NKs on a player we'd lynch otherwise, and allows us to use the lynch on someone else.
So I think the correct move for town here would be to put Astinus up to the sacrificial altar, outright refuse to lynch Astinus no matter what, and use the day for scumhunting instead of crowding around confirmed scum.
Again, let me know if I'm crazy for trying to predict scum actions here, because I don't really know how multiball scum strategy works.-
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Mathdino Survivor
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Why is that worst-case? If Astinus is town, then you're advocating for a PL, which I don't think is the correct course for D1. And if she is town, good for us; we already promised not to lynch her and if both teams are actually alive at LyLo, they'd have to shoot each other for any chance of winning.
Also, if she's town, do you really think all 4 scum players are going to townread her?-
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Mathdino Survivor
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IMO, we should either lynch Astinus today or make a pact to not lynch her at all. Leaving her alive with the caveat that she may be lynched later makes her a huge LyLo liability, like you said.-
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The issue is just that if we promise to lynch Astinus on some day other than right now, it gives scum no motivation to kill her since we've already lined up a lynch on her.
I would either lynch her now for being scum, or not at all.
See, here's the thing. Team 2 (or both teams if she's town) also wants Astinus dead no matter what, whether through NK, lynch, or endgame. They too have the dilemma of "is claimed scum actually scum", along with the fact that if they don't shoot Astinus, they run the risk of what you said, 5P LyLo (with team 2) occurring with all of Team 1 dead, or a choice later on of whether to shoot Astinus and hope she's the last Team 1 scum. I know this goes into the whole "second-guessing scum" territory, but honestly, every argument about her from a town standpoint will also apply to a scum one.
Lemme ask you all something; I think my own answer to this question would be obvious:
If you were scum, would you shoot claimed scum tonight?
Does this answer change depending on whether we lynch town, Team 1, or Team 2?-
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Mathdino Survivor
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Sorry for hyperactive posting but I just realised I forgot about the mafia cops. Hmm.
So if I were on team 2 and the cop were alive tonight, another possible course of action would be to kill whoever and investigate Astinus just to be sure. So:
D. Kill towniest player, investigate Astinus and send results to the other team 2 person. If town doesn't lynch her D2, NK her if scum and leave alone if town.
E. Kill towniest player, investigate Astinus and send results to 2nd towniest player. Now the question is what said player would do.
E1. Player says nothing for the time being. Team 2 kills player because it's likely they don't want to lynch their teammate. Team 2 kills Astinus the next night.
E2. Player outs a scum result on Astinus. Team 2 kills Astinus that night because optimal play.
E3. Player is town and outs a town result on Astinus. Good for town.
E4. Player is Astinus's scumpartner and outs a town result on Astinus. We're all fucked.
Note that E1 would be an exceptionally suicidal play on both sides; if the player is Astinus's scum partner, they'd just immediately lose, and if the player is town, well, they die and the investigation is never revealed.
Now, if we lynch Team 2 scum, it'd be impossible for them to, ah, go through with D (>.>). However, if we get a correct D1 lynch, town already has a pretty good advantage and none of these scenarios should be anything to worry about. We'd mostly have to hope Team 2 doesn't end up accidentally sending result to scum.
If we lynch town, it'd probably be more optimal to do D, which benefits town.
Of course, mafia could choose to not cop Astinus and it reverts to A, B, C.
It's late and I'm bored/tired. Am I overthinking this? Is there a scum strategy I'm not thinking of that could compromise this?
Edit: Your 2nd point is fair enough, yeah.-
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Mathdino Survivor
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Oh for chrissake.
UNVOTE: Oilura
VOTE: Astinus
Say SOMETHING, dammit. That's L-1.
I'll look over everyone else later after some ISOs.-
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Mathdino Survivor
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Okay you know what
, answer the below before someone waltzes into the thread and hammers you.Astinus
Are you a VT?
Why did you self-vote? (explain everything, don't leave anything out)
Where EXACTLY did you read that self-voting will help you (link please)?
Who is scum?
Who is town?
In descending order of importance. Astinus, look at it this way; if you ARE a VT, you should have nothing to hide when you're THIS close to dying. If you end up getting lynched because you won't talk, then you've officially been useless to the game and your faction.
So talk.-
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Mathdino Survivor
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Just in case it's useful to anyone, Astinus's current scum meta is literally softclaiming, waffling, and being generally useless. Newbie 1525, btw.
Personally I can't draw any conclusions considering we don't have her town meta but she's not exactly inconsistent with the scum meta I guess.
Sorry for general lack of ISOs, I got distracted. I'll have stuff up within the next 12 hours.-
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That's pretty damning, mastin.
I've done my homework at the academy. A huge portion of what I recall involves scuMastin being reluctant to bus unless it absolutely benefits you, and a huge scumastintell is simply being wrong. Thusly, I hereby present to you all:
Spoiler: Every Time Mastin Has Mentioned Astinus
Analysis still coming, promise.
Edit: Goddammit Oilura, we still could've used discussion. mastin's reads are still useful to us even if she's Astinus's partner.
Your shutting down discussion seriously reads Team 2 scum to me.
Guess I got a deadline for the reads then.-
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I have no idea when the hell the mod will get on, so I'm just gonna spam post some stuff just in case.
2birds1stone - Town AF - There's almost 0 chance that he's Astinus's scumbuddy considering early interaction (doesn't read at all like distancing, along with casting suspicion on me for unvoting). The theory discussion is also incredibly town just judging by his responses to me, along with the fact that he too didn't notice I forgot the scum cops.-
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Fink: Almost town AF - Solid contributions to the game, appreciated his thoughts on Astinus-chicken, appreciated his unvote post (seems like he legit wants more discussion), and I largely agree with mastin's thoughts on him, which again are still useful as mastin also seeks to scumhunt.
That said, I do have an issue with this post, where he claims that he "cannot figure out what I think of people that doesn't shift drastically depending on Astinus' flip and/or reasoning". The problem here is that we have 2 scummembers who know as much as we do about Astinus's flip, and their scumminess is completely independent of that. He seems reluctant to go hunting for Team 2.
Fink, if possible, can you explain that post?
Also, reads?-
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Above 2 were reads off the top of my head, let's get the minor ones and low activity people out of the way now.
Nova: Hmm, if I had to guess I'd say town, but multiball is throwing this off. Inclined to believe her on her opening post, but the fact that she hunted Astinus in a reasonable manner doesn't help get a read on him. Leantown for now.
Riabi: Similar to the above. Very similar. Leans town, but all posts have been on Team 1 so far so I can't be as sure as usual. Waiting on his reads.
NJAC: Null, but open to being PoE'd to a scumread later. Waiting on material.
Clusk: Ooh, damn, bad reason to prolong the day, mate. Lean scum for now.
guille: I really like #76 and I really like #123. guille shows clear hunting for Team 2 in the former, the push on Oilura is good, and in the latter he reaches out to Astinus to see her thoughts on the matter. If he was scum opposite Astinus, there'd be no reason to reach out to an unpredictable scum enemy. Way up there in the townlist.-
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Oh hell I was just ISOing mastin when I realised I came up with the exact same reads as her inadvertently.
Dammit.
Well, I can use mastin's PoE here. I'm almost certain the remaining scum are within {Clusk, dragonspawn, Oilura, TGS, NJAC (iffy on this one), mastin}. Judging by everyone's reactions to Astinus reading through the thread, I don't think anyone's really bussing suspiciously and so far the most suspish reaction is coming from mastin, so going with her as scumpartner.
Of those, Oilura's definitely still my top scumread. Gonna ISO her with a few other players, and then I'll ISO dragonspawn, TGS, and mastin altogether to see if there's any credence to the dragonspawn and TGS both being scum theory.-
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Interesting, can you explain why?-
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Hmm, I'm swinging between "that's a good point, I'll incorporate that" and "that makes no sense".
To go the latter route: Why would mastin pick an extremely scummy player to defend with some shoddy reasoning based simply on statistical likelihood of her being town? Your chances get pretty screwed up considering Astinus's scumclaim. And because of that, wouldn't scuMastin know that defending Astinus like that would have a fair likelihood of getting herself lynched?
I don't think mastin would defend Astinus at all unless there was a possibility of stopping that lynch, whether town OR scum. However I'm having a really really hard time seeing mastin as scum and not Astinus's partner.
The good point in your post was that you're right, this seems like a circumstance where the correct choice would be to give in and bus her partner. But IMO, if we find Astinus's partner, mastin is nigh confirmed town to me.-
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Mastin Academy on self-voters. Nulltell according to her, dependent on the motivation.
Dug up this (scum) post from L4D Mafia. To summarise, a VT RVS self-voted, and mastin's scumpartner jokingly self-voted, which mastin bussed.
I don't know, man. I very much don't know mastin well enough to know what she'd think of a scenario THIS weird. Gut would say she wouldn't townread Astinus based on that, though.-
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Something came up, I'm not gonna be able to finish promised analysis before deadline. I don't think Oilura's had enough interactions in order for me to get an associative read, but if I had to guess, her partner would be in her nullreads.
If Mastinus isn't a thing, then my guess at Astinus's partner would be someone who was against people unvoting and delaying the lynch a bit, since they would want as little interaction with her as possible. This means Clusk and Oilura.
G'night, folks.-
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Was gonna say the same thing against 2birds except the last part; I only stated suspicion because I PoE'd him.
@dragonspawn: Your NKA sucks. Fink was one of the towniest people in the game. That's it. Scum wants to cut down on the people who they can't lynch.
Mastin? I'm guessing scum either killed her because they agreed with "If Astinus is town, mastin is scum", or because of exactly what she said: she just gets NK'd a lot because she's good like that.
Here's the thing with NKA. If there's not an obvious reason, sure, you can try to second-guess the scum, see who the NK benefits. But in this case, Occam's Razor works best.
I really don't like how you're trying to muddy it up by starting there. NKA is never a good starting point. Furthermore, by no means did Fink display 'strong suspicions' for me. He was a protown player who predictably flipped town.
I never actually got around to ISOing the suspects in my scumlist by PoE, so lemme do that real quick.-
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Untrue. He said my calling out the misrep made him nervous. NOT that he had 'strong suspicions' for me. Saying he had strong suspicions when he was simply 'nervous' is in fact misrep.
Saying something like "Hmm, here's some evidence that may vaguely point to a protown player, but I'm not going to say anything" is very fencesitty and seems like you're looking for public approval before you make a move. Are you suspicious of me or not? Are you afraid people will jump on you if you say you are?
D1 was not a wasted day. Scumhunting by looking at the interactions of those who are ALIVE is far better. A townflip from the NK in multiball means jackshit, since even the scum couldn't know if they were town or not.-
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Considering the last information given by Oilura, I'm becoming a little more confident that he's a fish out of water on MS. He's clearly not a newb to mafia, but he's very much playing like someone who is used to playing in a very different way.
Also, Oilura's apparent method of finding scum is the fact that the best play for scum is to do exactly what town would do. I think Oilura scum would wait before quickhammering so as not to catch suspicion the next day, since he's clearly somewhat self-aware. Yes, I know this falls prey to WIFOM, however I seriously doubt he'd quickhammer to make us think he's town, that'd be silly.
Still haven't gotten around to ISOing dragonspawn and TGS, will get around to that.-
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ISO'd dragonspawn, TGS, and mastin (mastin because why not, her thoughts are helpful).
#10 by dragonspawn, gives basically a "WTF was that" to Astinus but without suspicion. Then switches back to RVS mode with #11, which I'm not really sure how to interpret. See, I've always found that kind of RVS serious-type suspicion to be a bit scummy, especially right after he made a valid remark against Astinus. #28 strengthens my qualms; "[TGS's Astinus vote] wasn't random. Though I suppose the one for me might not have been either". It's the latter part of that sentence that just seems off, keeping with the whole "Lemme point this out, could mean something but I'm not going to say anything yet". Haha, #85 is kind of funny. He jumps on Astinus's scumclaim by saying it "sets off huge red flags" but then goes and asks the most useless question of "The only question is he wolf or mafia?" Nice contribution, mate.
Here we have dragonspawn seconding a TGS question. The post above it asks another useless question. The post below it gives townreads to 2birds and Fink, says "astinus is completely anti town and even scummy in his play so far", and scumreads me and mastin for no discernible reason, which is funny because he jumped on mastin for not initially explaining her Oilura suspicion. Also interesting is he distanced from TGS, mastin, and me after our first posts, but he only scumreads me and mastin.
dragonspawn, I'd like you to explain why you had those scumreads back then.
#119 by TGS sets off a bit of a red flag for me. It responds to mastin reasonably, makes a fair point on Astinus, but out of the blue asks
and never mentions NJAC again until twilight. What?In 119, TGS wrote:@dragonspawn, how do you feel about NJAC's posts?
TGS, why did you specifically ask dragonspawn about specifically NJAC, instead of, say, asking everyone, or asking dragonspawn ALL his reads?
Then 3 posts later dragonspawn goes and votes and interrogates NJAC, almost as if on cue. In #146 by TGS, she does point this out and call out dragonspawn for buddying her, to which he responds "I'm buddying you for answering your question teen girl?" TGS follows up with @dragonspawn, You're buddying because I think you're just saying what you think I want to hear. No need to misrep
The rest isn't really significant. mastin makes the odd claim that dragonspawn and TGS are extremely suspicious but on opposite scumteams and that one is buddying the other. Doesn't make sense because scum doesn't know the other scum, but her suspicions are very valid. Then DS and TGS threaten to hammer one after the other and then give last words one after the other (No, 'one after the other' isn't something noteworthy, just telling the story). TGS's last words say that if Astinus flips scum, dragonspawn and Oilura are possible partners, and lines up lurkers and mastin if she flips town.
Then dragon's last words are just that he doesn't feel like reading up to post thoughts. Odd. Consider: a townie would want to post last thoughts just in case they get NK'd and said thoughts prove useful. I mean, if one of the scumteams was shooting for scum, dragon was at serious risk. A scum player, on the other hand, would want to avoid unnecessary reads lists and such so they don't get analysed if he flips scum. His lack of effort here is pinging me.
So what do we have? We have a player who is very prone to point things out and ask pointed yet useless questions, had odd behaviour during RVS, and half buddied TGS.
Hate to pull appeal to authority as my last point, but I'm pretty confident now with dragonscum.In post 206, mastin2 wrote:When Astinus flips town, look in TGS, dragonspawn, Oilura, and Clusk for your scum if I don't make it.
VOTE: dragonspawn
Edit: I haven't read any of the above series of posts. If any of those nullify points in this case, I'll adjust as necessary.-
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Mathdino Survivor
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It's not a good starting point because most people suck at it and try to glean too much out of it. Once you go past 1 layer of WIFOM, the analysis pretty much becomes dumb/useless.In post 233, dragonspawn wrote:nka analysis isn't a good starting point? Why not?
and you seem to think I think my strong suspicions comment is what's throwing causing the miscommunications. I should have said strongest. I wasn't trying to imply fink was arguing that math was definitely scum. I meant to say that math was the one he had the strongest suspicions or concerns on. Others were just questions or random votes.
if you haven't noticed, I didn't vote for math. If I thought it was damning evidence I would have. But the fact is it funk was pretty obviously town. He could have been killed for that. Someone might have killed him to set someone up. They may have also killed him because they thought he was on the other scum team.
so considering the multiple reasons possible I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with going through their interactions. Should I presume you guys dont want me going through mastins interactions or is that okay because he was suspicious of me?
The funny thing though is you just WIFOM'd your own analysis here. Your series of Fink posts had a huge subtext of "Pssst, mebbe Math killed Fink" but now you're agreeing that scum could've killed him because obvtown. And then you WIFOM'd yourself saying he could've been killed to setsomeoneme up. The multiple reasons possible doesn't make it 'inherently wrong', it just makes it completely useless. If Fink made good points, then we can use those and know he was being honest about them. If mastin made good points (and she did), then we can use those. But as it is, your series of Fink quotes was pointless IIoA and had underhanded suspicion casting. If you think it points to me as scum, just say so.
I lol'd at how unnecessarily defencive the bolded part is. Anyway, my point is that you use NKA as a way to make D1 not a waste, when NKA is probably one of the more useless ways to analyse D1. Again, look at the players who are alive.In post 237, dragonspawn wrote:he was the one who said day 1 was a waste.Dont look at me.
I've also been clear from early on that I find you suspicious. I haven't decided of that means you're scum. Hence why I am still looking
You haven't been clear at all; you gave a scumread on me once and that was it. Please explain this read and whether your NKA applies to it.-
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EBWOP: "You haven't been clear at all; you gave a scumread on me once after criticising my RVS vote and that was it.-
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In post 223, Riabi wrote:Probably town: Mathdino (I agree that 137 was probably a town-slip), TGS
Leaning town: Clusk, 2birds
Neutral/Can't Tell: NJAC, Nova, dragonspawn
Leaning scum: Guille (This is mostly a gut-read)
Probably scum: Oilura
New opinions, yum. Didn't read this the first time.
Can you explain your reads on TGS and guille?-
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...
Okay. Gonna take this chronologically.
You said early on you had a 'slight scumread' on me but you didn't explain it at all and didn't follow up, so your saying today that you were always suspicious of me was a surprise due to your lack of clarity and explanation. You need to explain them BECAUSE you haven't been clear. Don't try to dodge the question by criticising it.
Yes, I understood your issues with mastin. But you've still yet to explain what it was ABOUT my style that was setting off alarms. I'm not going to try to poke holes in your early scumreads, but the fact that you've had that read on me since the very beginning due to 'gaming style' and won't explain it is worrisome.
You analysed a dead guy. I analysed you. Trying to find inconsistencies in the attacker is not a good defence.-
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Oh, okay, that makes sense. Good test.
I like the above post.-
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In post 242, dragonspawn wrote:I made it clear my suspicion of mastin was gut reaction to his "I'm so awesome" intro. But since I don't know him well enough I wasn't sure if it was actually scummy behavior that was setting me off or his gaming style. The same issue with you. I suspect you but it could just be your gaming style setting off alarms.
This is not an answer. This is a restatement of why you scumread mastin (I understood that part). This does not explain what it was about my playstyle that could be construed as scummy behaviour.
But hey, if it makes you happy to misrep my reasons for voting you and sarcastically deflect questions and cases, feel free. It just gives town more ammunition to go after scum.-
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I was waiting for Oilura to respond just in case, didn't want to comment on dragonspawn just in case.
Your going after Oilura for opening with a defence is bull. Everyone freaked out about the hammer in twilight; if he DIDN'T open with a defence of the hammer, there'd have been bigger issues. Even if he thought there was nothing wrong with it, you're right, someone did chew her out.The entire town.
Not sure what I think of Riabi agreeing with that case; I don't really want to FoS someone for being wrong. Can I vote DS again though?-
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Lol, can you link us to that game?
What're your thoughts on how DS has responded to me last page?-
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Subject: Newbie 1292: Class of '13 mafia. GAME OVER
Keybladewielder wrote:In post 296, theamatuer wrote:In post 295, Keybladewielder wrote:Didn't you get my Pms?
whats this about PMs
Umm what?
Oh god I love KBW xD. Played a game once with him in 2013 and about 3 people tried to policy him before he even posted. Luckily he replaced out.
Anyway, not sold on TGS yet; it's entirely possible DS purposefully buddied TGS to set up her lynch if DS goes.-
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Why are you not voting?-
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In post 264, dragonspawn wrote:Am I buddying teen girl or in a rivalry or setting her up? I find maths dense of oilura. Interesting. Is that why you are gunning for me? You mad that I'm going at your partner?
In post 265, dragonspawn wrote:trying to rush a lynch?
^These are among the worst lines of loaded questioning I've ever seen. If you want to know my motivation behind something, you can just ask.
1. All 3. You've displayed very clear awkward interactions toward TGS which involve both buddying and distancing. This is scummy behaviour. However, IMO, given TGS's fairly townish D2 behaviour, I think it's possible you're attaching yourself to her so we lynch her if you flip scum.
2. If you read my case, you'll see why I'm gunning for you.
3. Please elaborate on why you think I'm scum with Oilura.
4. No, but disparity between reads and where one places their vote is off, so I asked a question about his motivation BEFORE I assumed he was trying to avoid being on a wagon or something. If you get to L-1 prematurely, I'll unvote. Ya know. Just like I did with Astinus.
Feel like expanding on your D1 suspicions of me instead of twisting everything I've done D2 to look scummy?
Edit: I second the above question.-
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Ooh, I like Nova's playstyle, but I'm not sure I like Nova-for-town. Will respond more at computer.
Want more activity than me and 2birds vs DS vs TGS pl0x.-
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Oilura, you have more townreads than there are town. Jussayin.-
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In post 271, Nova-Radiance wrote:So you'd have me post random bullshit to produce original content? I'll just disregard the excellent points that influenced my reads, to be original.
Now I'm curious, would you have me not vote for someone who said the person they were voting was probably not scum, or not vote at all?
Like Mathdino pointed out, the phrase "don't look at me" is extremely defensive, and the way dragonspawn pushed some attention back to him instead of defending himself is suspicious.
TGS in post #244 saying that she finds the fact people are going after something that was scummy just because it was in RVS. Doing something scummy is indicative of scum no matter when it's done, and the fact you are calling it suspicious that they're bringing up that evidence against you bothers me.
Okay, so what I said is the opposite of how I see this now. Turns out posting from phone makes every post look like an incredibly useful wall and I got the impression Nova was walling up a sheep argument.
2birds, indignation isn't always town, it's just how manufactured it looks. In this case, it's subtle enough for me. Good points on DS and TGS, though I can't agree with the TGS-being-wrong-makes-her-scum.
In post 273, 2birds1stone wrote:TGS just started pushing against me because I picked her dspawn's buddy, dragonspawn flip will bear this out.
Possible. If we're lucky, scum will cross kill tonight (likely on her) since a ton of people seem to think she's either DS's buddy or scum on the opposite side.-
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I don't usually, but is it too much to hope for a crosskill in multiball?-
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In post 286, Teen Girl Squad wrote:Seriously?? "dude with 5 posts" = "probably town cause he got annyoed" but "actively trying to scumhunt" = "scummy" ????
asdjksjdkasdkj
This is actually a really scummy post. Looks like she's trying too hard.-
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Heyguille,Nova, there's no harm in placing a vote, ya know. If someone tries to hammer before we get enough discussion I'll rope them myself. But as it is, this day is moving pretty slowly besides me vs dragonspawn. I do appreciate guille's interrogating though.
If anything, vote to make the game more interesting, to put pressure, to get reactions.
Oilura, try harder. I understand what your issue is, but scum here are harder to find than on other sites. You won't find them by searching for people who suck at the game. Sort your townreads maybe, use PoE. I assure you that there's scum in the active people of the past 2 pages.
TGS, what're your reads on guille and Nova?
Nova, you seem fairly passive and observational; a good amount of your posts are just answering questions rather than pushing your opinions. Is this playstyle? Having trouble getting into the game?-
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moar questions, you guys are a quiet lot
In post 249, Riabi wrote:TGS started as a gut read, but an ISO of him (her? them? does it matter to you TGS?) helped shore up my opinion. For example, in 119 (and a bit in 224 as well)he seems willing to change his opinion based on new evidence.
Also, I like some of the questions he asks, like trying to get dragonspawn's opinion of NJAC. To me, it seems like he's really trying to solve a puzzle. And, while in a multiball everyone is doing that to a certain degree, I've not seen a lot of explicitly scummy behavior that I can tell. It seems to me like the scummiest thing he did was to tunnel Astinus, but, a lot of us did that, so that certainly can't be considered scummy.
On a different note, DS is really starting to become more suspicious to me. Post 242 is just plain bad, and the first part of 248 is only slightly better. So, while I'm not ready to change my vote just yet FOS on dragonspawn for sure.
That being said, there is one thing I do like about 248.His analysis about Oil seems spot on. The early defensive post from Oil re: the hammer is weird, and I'd like to know why that post was made as well.
Riabi: You already admitted that everyone is trying to scumhunt, so why does being willing to change opinions and have spot-on analysis townish exempt one from scummy behaviour? Check mastin's and 2birds's ISOs if you want to see the main issues people have with TGS.
Anyway, what's your read on Nova atm?
In post 284, guille2015 wrote:Nova can be Town for now.
Why?
In post 255, 2birds1stone wrote:At the same time, it is consistent with his mafia upbringing, specifically "everyone's playstyle is to NOT GET LYNCHED NO MATTER WHAT". Oilura in general is very difficult to read because of coming from a radically different meta.In post 258, 2birds1stone wrote:I'd find it interesting that dragonspawn and Oilura are not of the same alignment were I not already set on dspawn/TGS.
For those of you who aren't set on dspawn/TGS, it may be worth noting that dspawn/Oilura is extremely unlikely.
2birds: You haven't really taken a stance on Oilura since very early game. But in the latter post you're speculating on what scumteam he's on. What's your current read on him given the meta information? Is he in your lynchpool?-
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You haven't mentioned Riabi as a scumread before. I think you're the first person to. Care to expand on that?-
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In post 298, 2birds1stone wrote:I'm a little unhappy about guille vs Riabi, I was kind of hoping we could all silently agree to townread each other and PoE the game out.
Okay, this post gave me flashes of 2birds1scum. You're implicitly proposing a townbloc, or at least hoping for one that you're part of.
Fishy. You also choose to say you're unhappy with the conflict developing, rather than directly criticising the arguments made.-
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In post 302, 2birds1stone wrote:
That's how townblocs generally work.Mathdino wrote:In post 298, 2birds1stone wrote:I'm a little unhappy about guille vs Riabi, I was kind of hoping we could all silently agree to townread each other and PoE the game out.
Okay, this post gave me flashes of 2birds1scum. You're implicitly proposing a townbloc, or at least hoping for one that you're part of.
Fishy. You also choose to say you're unhappy with the conflict developing, rather than directly criticising the arguments made.
The arguments made aren't worth commenting on yet, the conflict is.
Townblocs are not formed by people talking about them. They evolve as the game goes on.
I don't know, it looks like you're trying to solidify your townread status in a lot of people's minds.
So hang on, you're unhappy with the guille vs Riabi conflict but you choose not to dissect guille's argument or take it apart, prove him wrong?-
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^This is very likely to be town.
Note the very nuanced reads on Nova and Oilura. However, I can definitely see guille's suspicion of a possible Riabi/TGS. One question,
@Riabi:See, I still don't quite understand why, say, 2birds is below TGS on your list. You concede that TGS has displayed some scummy behaviour, but her willingness to scumhunt outweighs that. What makes you put 2birds below someone who we agree has been at least slightly scummy?
Also, thoughts on guille's behaviour between your last 2 posts?-
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Took only a bit of meta to show town-Riabi. Her reads as town are waaaay better than as scum. More detailed, less based on verdicts and more based on analysis. That said,
In post 7, Riabi wrote:So, this is my first game here, from looking through a lot of the old forums, it looks like random voting is somewhat common 'round these parts, so, with that in mind, I'm going to VOTE: TRex and TRex, if you want me to change my vote, it's up to you to convince me you aren't scum. Aren't all dinosaurs inherently scummy?
y u no early vote me-
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EBWOP: *His-
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In post 266, guille2015 wrote:In post 264, dragonspawn wrote:Am I buddying teen girl or in a rivalry or setting her up? I find maths dense of oilura. Interesting. Is that why you are gunning for me? You mad that I'm going at your partner?
I think you were creating a rivalry earlier on. I never agreed to the other two positions. I think my position is pretty clear.
I don't know what "I find math's dense of Oilura" means.
Who do you think is scum Dragonspawn?In post 269, Teen Girl Squad wrote:In post 90, dragonspawn wrote:pretty good argument concerning the biggest anti town usually being town since scum won't take that chance. Can we take that chance?
all and all I'm thinking bird comes across as town to me.
Here's dragonspawn's townread of 2birds I mentioned earlier. He agrees that Astinus is acting too scummy to be scum and townreads 2birds for it, but later votes Astinus anyway. It's just strange to me.
Dragon, what are your thoughts on 2birds now?
Dragonspawn, please answer these questions.-
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He has 1 scum game and 1 recent towngame, both with fairly short ISOs. The general feel that I got was that scum-Riabi was more interested in getting verdicts on people, labeling them as lean-scum or town or null or the like, while town-Riabi was more interested in analysing people and THEN coming to a verdict. In essence, scum-him fits the evidence to the reads.
But sure, I'll wait.
Edit: I figured you were quoting in chrono order, and since I saw you quote Oilura at about post 300, I thought you'd missed them.-
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