Open 583: JK9++ (Game Over!)

[Tean Samargo]

Ready

[Tean Samargo]

A haiku with love:

I don't like penguins.
Go back to Antarctica.

Vote: killapenwin

[Tean Samargo]

Mine is a real vote now too. I'm not liking any of killapenwin's posts so far!
If there's anything you want to mention in it speak up, since Im a bit busy at the moment.

[Tean Samargo]

Ignore that last part, editing errors.

[Tean Samargo]

Seeing that penwin is humbly requesting for reasons upon why I voted his sorry ding dong, I will be glad to oblige.

Originally I simply voted the penguins as an RVS. No harm no fowl. Just seeing if I can net some sort of reaction, and reaction is what he gave.

The pengling thusly replies with a post claiming that because I voted him, I am scum. An odd claim, seeing that he fails to even place a vote on my head. Why, may I ask would you not vote for someone after clearly stating that they are scum?

The plot thickens when Stott adds his votes and calls out these problems. Pengdong replies saying that Stott's vote is scummy aswell, and without good reason. Now there are at least two people that Pengin is calling scummy and yet he still is hesitant to vote for either one of them.

I believe his actions so far centers around himself. He is being super defensive, and not once has he even tried to scum hunt. To reinforce this idea please look at his posts:

Post #54: Odd post commenting on RVS. The diction of this posts (particularly of the word 'decending') suggests that he frowns upon RVS. Yet he follows it up by saying he wanted to RVS someone else, but someone beat him to it. Besides the hypocritical content, he is also saying that he is hesitant to place a vote on top of another's. This is suggesting that he didn't really want to draw too much attention (which, looking at the votes against him, pretty much backfired).

Post #56: His first scum read. Coincidentally it's a read on someone who voted against him.

Post #88: His second scum read. Again, it's a read on someone who voted against him.

These posts clearly state that penguin is focus on the defensive and has not once scum hunted. Definitely not townie behaviour. I'm going to take off my gloves and say this is pretty dang scummy.

Another interesting thing to note is that he has more of a problem with the RVS votes against him rather than the one on the others. He calls me and Stott scummy for 'RVS voting' against him, yet what about Aneninen? What about the rest of the people who RVSed? It is a coincidence that he is only calling out the people who voted against him? I think not.

To me, it seems his play so far is "everyone who calls me scummy is scum."

Because of the reasons stated above, I think the Penguin is scummy

[Tean Samargo]

ok im going to get the ball started here. i havent played in this set up before. what are peoples thoughts on the mechanics of this game? or how are you planning on approaching this game?

I haven't played this setup before either. Seems to be a lot of variation. I'm just going to focus on scum hunting for now. After the first night, we will either have some power roles that find us some information, or we won't. If we don't have the power roles, that means there is less scum, if we do, it should be easier to find them. I don't think it pays to speculate at this point on the setup and play beyond that.

So are you planning on scumhunting soon then? I dont really consider what you've done so far as scumhunting even though you're "focusing on it".

[Tean Samargo]

Honestly, I don't like BBT so far. He was active pregame, but his posting dropped off the face of the earth the instant the game started. His actual posts have been pretty meaningless too. It looks to me like he's trying to coast by without saying much, which he's able to do so far since people are mostly ignoring him.

[Tean Samargo]

I haven't played with BBT before myself. The other head of the hydra might have, I'm not sure.

[Tean Samargo]

@Dav
There's only 4 people in your reads list, where's the rest? It sort of feels like a filler from where I'm sitting.

[Tean Samargo]

There's nothing to go by in your reads list. All of your reads are null, mixed and you seem unsure of yourself. It seems like it's all rushed and poorly made. Odd, seeing that you were one of the more active players in the forum at the moment. What were you doing all this time? Surely you must have a more solid read by now?

I feel like this list is pretty much forced, and you're trying to feign scum hunting.
I think this would be a much more solid shelf for my vote.

Vote: davesaz

My case on Penguin is stated in my previous post against him. Seeing that the vote so far has only managed to provoke him, I feel like a coherent discussion will not be possible at this moment.
Also: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GnLDJAgrws

[Tean Samargo]

Nope, its either manually or getting someone else to do it for you. Usually the mod helps out with column B.

Seeing that people need this:
killapenwin (o) -
BlueBloodedToffee (1) - Aneninen
eyestott (o) -
Heartless (1) - davesaz
davesaz (5) - Mastin2, copper223, dodgy56, Wickedestjr, Tean Samargo
copper223 (1) - Heartless
vettrock (o) -
Aneninen (o) -
dodgy56 (1) - vettrock
Wickedestjr (1) - beastcharizard
beastcharizard (o) -
Tean Samargo (1) - killapenwin
mastin2 (1) - BlueBloodedToffee

Not Voting: eyestott

L-2 for davesaz

[Tean Samargo]

@dav
The point of my case against you dav is that you have been floating around the forum posting nearly daily and yet your strongest read is simply a 'mixed' read. While I'm not asking for a super strong 'that man is scum' read, I find it suspicious that you don't even have a weak scum read. It is as if you weren't really looking for scum until that point. That in my opinion is pretty dang scummy.

@eyestott
I find your vote on dav as rather opportunistic. I feel a little bit uncomfortable with my vote along side yours honestly. Right now it feels as if you are sheeping the biggest bandwagon.

@penguin
My post in #93 was intended to be somewhat light-hearted and be crudely humourous. The explanation for the use of 'Pengling', 'Pengdong', etc, can be found in the link I provided in post #189. Seeing that you blew things out of proportion, I felt the need to explain that.

I also felt that if I licked your post #143 I would taste the amount of salt you put into it. Please look at this and tell me that you didn't have laser beams protruding from your eyes while writing it:

If you feel I was being defensive then here are two reasons why:
1) The person who gets the most votes early on is usually the one who ends up lynched especially in the early stages.
2) Calling someone out for their reasoning behind a vote isn't defensive.
3) I saw a potential bandwagon forming on me.
4) I am actually of the belief that putting a lot of votes out early is bad as it makes scums life easier a) for bandwagoning, b) hiding (people focussing on votes rather than hunting)

For the less literate, I would like to point out the fact that there are more than two reasons.
This is just a small part of the salty dish you provided. I do admit that I did have a hand in this, and so I feel uncomfortable to use this post as evidence against your case.


Now about your current post:
I like the fact that the ones you think are scum are the ones who voted against you. Also your reasons are quite... Interesting.
-Do you think that 'arrogance' is a scum tell to you? Is it impossible for a townie to be 'arrogant'?
-Do you have any other reason other than "This guy is super mean to me." Some people would prefer something more logical reasoning for calling someone scum, and I am part of that little group.
-You happened to have mentioned that townies are supposed to ask questions and investigate. So far I find that you haven't done much of this yet. What is your contribution to town so far?
-I also like to point out that you ignored all the substantial things that I said in favour of calling me rude. I feel like you're going out of the way to try to make this personal.

So far the only ones I'm comfortable with calling town are Dodgy and Wicked.
-Dodgy for his inquisition and use of votes. His content so far is giving me a townie vibe.
-Wicked for that informative reads list. His questioning and observations so far are looking to me like he's actively scum hunting at this moment. He momentarily gets a town badge from me.

[Tean Samargo]

@copper have you played an games outside the site? Do you have any alts? I'd like to have a few links if you please.

[Tean Samargo]

Mm, actually, scratch that last request.

[Tean Samargo]

@Killapenwin

@eyestott it is because your votes so far have just followed Tean's, which looks a bit sheepish. Also, Tean has only voted on players that have been voted on already so either him or you (maybe both) are trying to create bandwagons or give them some momentum in my opinion.

As Aneninen said, it is odd that Tean would call you out for sheeping when he himself is being a catalyst for bandwagons.

To start with, it'd be nice if you wouldn't lie when trying to cast suspicion on me. I was the first person who had a non-rvs vote on you when the game started and you should know that. I don't appreciate you lying to try to make me sound worse.

On top of that, I don't like how you're ignoring my posts. You seem to have outright missed #231, and I'd like you to try answering my questions, not just blindly calling me scum because I'm rude.

@Wickedestjr

@eyestott
I find your vote on dav as rather opportunistic. I feel a little bit uncomfortable with my vote along side yours honestly. Right now it feels as if you are sheeping the biggest bandwagon.

Now this is a weird thing for

you

to say! Especially considering you cast the vote for davesaz immediately preceding eyestott’s vote (so you weren’t much faster to hop aboard). It also seems convenient how you start to cast doubt on the wagon, ‘coincidentally’, just after it starts to lose momentum.

Could you show me where I started to cast doubt on a wagon? I'm not seeing it. Also, I didn't dislike eyestott's vote for jumping on the wagon, it was for jumping on it with shitty reasoning. He finds dav his top scumread but he doesn't vote until dav isn't at L-2 because he's scared of dav getting hammered? If he thinks dav is scum why the fuck would he be so concerned about him getting lynched?

[Tean Samargo]

Faust here.
This is the hydras main poster. My computer just imploded so I can't really make anything lengthy ATM. If you have anything brilliantly important to ask then either wait for the berry or bear with my typo filled answers.

[Tean Samargo]

*on the phone*

[Tean Samargo]

@BlueBloodedToffee

Well, I would say that Killa’s defensiveness means that he’s more concerned about maintaining his image. I don’t like a lot of his posts. I don’t consider him to be hunting scum. His “reads” seem more influenced by salt, seeing as how me and eyestott are easily listed as scum (and what a coincidence! We both voted for him). Oh, and my favorite part was when he blatantly threatened that "things wouldn't end up well" if I continued voting for him.

@copper

Do you mean that last discussion or their interaction in general?

@penwin

Opinions on mastin? I don’t like how people are practically idolizing her and her actions. I think most of her actions are cryptic as fuck, and I'm not sure why some people are blindly following her

@Dav

@dav
The point of my case against you dav is that you have been floating around the forum posting nearly daily and yet your strongest read is simply a 'mixed' read. While I'm not asking for a super strong 'that man is scum' read, I find it suspicious that you don't even have a weak scum read. It is as if you weren't really looking for scum until that point. That in my opinion is pretty dang scummy.

This is partly accurate and partly completely wrong. Your observation on activity is quite accurate. I have been active, in this thread or elsewhere, pretty much constantly when I have free time. There were a couple of times I would have wanted to post more in-depth (Thursday morning and Saturday morning) but could not because of RL obligations.

The completely wrong part is the interpretation of why my reads are useless, and even more so the analysis of what that means for alignment. If I were scum, I could toss out accusations willy nilly and pick one that sticks. It would even be beneficial for my team to toss weak scum reads in the direction of my teammates, and buddy the heck out of a couple of town to cast suspicion on them. I'm not taking the easy route -- that should tell you something.

By your own admission, you weren't thinking rationally at that time. In that state, I'm not sure that you'd be making the optimal scum plays regardless in that state.

-Faustbyte

[Tean Samargo]

Well, I would say that Killa’s defensiveness means that he’s more concerned about maintaining his image. I don’t like a lot of his posts. I don’t consider him to be hunting scum. His “reads” seem more influenced by salt, seeing as how me and eyestott are easily listed as scum (and what a coincidence! We both voted for him). Oh, and my favorite part was when he blatantly threatened that

"things wouldn't end up well"

if I continued voting for him.

Editing errors. Note he didn't actually say this. I blame phone and notes.
-Fausty

[Tean Samargo]

Replying to this is going to be inconvenient. Computer is still down, so a proper post will be in order when I get to my school tomorrow. I'll be replying to you and copper and make some thoughts about current events tommorow, so look forward to that.
I just want to say you're sort of missrepping that post. Not too surprising since I didn't put much time and detail to it. (And no it's not another editing fail).
-Faust

[Tean Samargo]

@Wicked
Seeing that I will have to quote quite a bit, I feel like this gem deserves its own post.

Firstly, when examining what I posted, did you take in mind the context of the post? What it looks like is that you think my reply to penwin was a read. This is not exactly true. To understand my post fully, you must look at penwin's odd question:

@tean what do you think of mastin's holding her reads 'close to her chest'?

My post was/is

not

a current read of mastin. It was an opinion on her play earlier where she would literally just post "I think he's scum. Trust." and leave it for a day or two.

As for these branches:

The statement that “people are practically idolizing her” is a false exaggeration. I can't think of anybody that has come close to idolizing her. Tean, I would love to see examples that justify your statement.

Finally, the “I’m not sure why some people are blindly following her” makes no sense.

For these points, I would like to direct you to this lovely quote:

Mostly skimming right now.

Dave is scum. You can trust me on that.

i dont trust you on that at all. why do you think he is scum?
Dave is a player i would consider voting right now but i want to know what your case against him is.

dodgy, mastin is just as (If not more) experienced at mafia as the likes of sjg and Crunkus. She cant fully explain, because it would be against the rules (I think because of the "no talking about ongoing games" rule).

Here in this post, we see the white knight Eyestott defending the vague post. I see here that Eyestott is encouraging his fellow companions to trust mastin and to join the glorious dav bandwagon. He's fine with trusting her saying that she's a veteran, and/or the reason why she couldn't explain was because of a current game. 'Idolizing' might be a bit of a stretch, I must admit, but I do interpret this as blindly following seeing how quickly eye is willing to trust and defend mastin's 15 syllable argument.

Finally, the “I’m not sure why some people are blindly following her” makes no sense. Tean joined the bandwagon that mastin started (surely they wouldn’t have issue with that following, they took part in it) AND mastin was the one that followed the eyestott scrutiny, not vice versa.

Look, there's a little bit of a difference between "Look this guy said he's scum without explaining- lets trust him" and voting for someone with some sort of evidence. I thought that Dav was suspicious not because of what mastin had said, but because of his play. Two different things. You're sort of blowing it up and taking it out of context.

The thought, “I think most of her actions are cryptic as f***” is a very strong opinion that is very surprising considering mastin has actually just started revealing more AND Tean had never mentioned mastin prior to this.

My opinion is based on Mastin's earlier play. This is

obviously

not an opinion on her

current

play. Especially after she started revealing more.

This whole post is absurd and feels like setting up to join a potential bandwagon that could form on mastin.

So you're suggesting that I think mastin to be scummy? No where in this post states that I thought that mastin was scummy. And please don't say disliking someone's opinion is scummy. I expect you to at least know this.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Remember when I said I wanted to wait to reply to this until I got my hands on a computer? Well that's just one of my reasons. The other reason for waiting was that I wanted to see all the eager beavers willing to jump on the wagon even after I posted #589.

In short, I think Dodgy's vote was too eager to be towny. The speed in which it picks up can be compared to the majestic flight of a rocket ship (or shall I say rocket-sheep?). Quick and dirty.

Oh and it's funny to note that he said this too:

we still have plenty of time to find scum

Well dodgy?

[Tean Samargo]

@Copper
My opinion on the dodgy-eye interaction is that I think that they are likely tvs. I don't think both of them are entirely towny in behavior for separate reasons.

Eye- I like BBT's thoughts in #393 about eye's actions. I point specifically at the point where eye is trying to change dodgy's opinion.
Dodgy- I find his play seems to be too tunnel-y. Whatever eye posts, dodgy seems to go above and beyond to scum read it. The speed in which Dodgy suddenly drops his vote on eye (without question mind you), is very suspicious.

If one turns out to be scum, it's likely the other may be town.


I considered the possibility of svs. They know each other, so it's likely that they trust each other to bus. But I find their interactions were too loud and obvious. They are drawing too much attention to themselves.

[Tean Samargo]

@tean: whats your read on BBT atm?

I played my last game with BBT. His pattern of play sort of fit a part of it so far.
Here's the link:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=58653

Summary of play:
-He white knights a townie to the extreme.
-Townie was slightly scummy (in my opinion).

Knowing this, I hesitate to call him a complete town. I do, however, some of his thoughts and posts. His scum hunting seems to be quite genuine as well.
He wins a strong-ish town lean.

[Tean Samargo]

I do, however, like some of his thoughts and posts**

[Tean Samargo]

I'm freaking hungry. Faust signing off.

[Tean Samargo]

I do, however, like some of his thoughts and posts**

After lunch edit/clarification:
Me liking his posts have nothing to do with my opinion on his alignment.

[Tean Samargo]

@Dav
Care to explain this?

I'll be honest, my approach has been somewhat lazy. I got seriously pissed off by the early wagon, and really demoralized by

a bunch of scummy stuff being ignored

by the same people who were sheeping Mastin on the so-called "newbscum tells" that have not really been explained. Mea culpa.

Where, when and what?

[Tean Samargo]

I got seriously pissed off by the early wagon, and really demoralized by

a bunch of scummy stuff being ignored

by the same people who were sheeping Mastin on the so-called "newbscum tells" that have not really been explained.

"Odd thing to say seeing that you haven't mentioned this at all at any point of time. If you had noticed some scummy things going on, why haven't you mentioned it? Or did you conveniently just notice them to seem more victimized?."

[Tean Samargo]

woops. lel.

I got seriously pissed off by the early wagon, and really demoralized by a bunch of scummy stuff being ignored by the same people who were sheeping Mastin on the so-called "newbscum tells" that have not really been explained.

"Odd thing to say seeing that you haven't mentioned this at all at any point of time. If you had noticed some scummy things going on, why haven't you mentioned it? Or did you conveniently just notice them to seem more victimized?."

[Tean Samargo]

Also, I noticed that your posting rate in this thread had gone down since your wagon fell in disrepair. I wanted to see if you would start up anytime soon, so i held off posting about you for a bit. Unsurprisingly, you pick up only after your wagon does. Your focus seems to be in the wrong places.

[Tean Samargo]

I can always go for the hero shot or egg in the face if you get me lynched, or it won't be on me if we end up on Dave and it's a mislynch, the important part for me is I won't support lynching someone when I don't believe he is scum just because it's the easy way out.

What changed in between #873 and this post? You seemed quite happy to vote him then.
If you don't believe he is scum why the vote in the first place.

[Tean Samargo]

If you don't believe he is scum then why the vote in the first place?
Damn all touch phones!

[Tean Samargo]

Back at a computer where I can do proper replies.

@Dav
Care to explain this?

I'll be honest, my approach has been somewhat lazy. I got seriously pissed off by the early wagon, and really demoralized by

a bunch of scummy stuff being ignored

by the same people who were sheeping Mastin on the so-called "newbscum tells" that have not really been explained. Mea culpa.

Where, when and what?

The answers can be found in several of my own posts. See 198 215 216 220 238 259 276.

Fair enough. Well to be honest some of these were floaty. 215 and 220 for example, state observations that may be true, but don't really show your thoughts on it.
276, and maybe 216 are some better posts, but I doubt they were ignored.
Some, if not most, are not the best examples to use.

[Tean Samargo]

Of all the stuff posted in the last few hours, is this really the most productive thing you can focus on?

Is this really your final answer? A deflection? To thevery least I would expect a townie to explain why they thought that the mentioned posts were you pointing out some scummy things happening. But your answer here is telling me "Oh snap, the jig is up! I should try avoiding an answer and redirect this attention."

Originally, I thought it was strange that you should mention that there were scummy things going about that was being ignored. I didn't see you push it via voting, or point them out. Now that you pointed them out, I'll accepted it.

The problem is now, most of these things aren't even you pointing out things that are scummy. They were either defensive posts on your end, or vague questions that tell no one of what your opinion on the matter is. Looking through this list, I only see 2 posts that show you pointing out something scummy. It's as if you expected me to look at your post, and tell myself "Wow look at all these posts. He definitely was scum hunting the whole time. I might as well not click them and see whats in it."

The unrelated links feel like filler, and it looks like you're trying to strengthen your argument by adding a larger quantity of links. Not exactly the towniest thing to do. That deflection right at the end makes your action down right scummier.

[Tean Samargo]

@Dodgy
I don't think I've seen your case on your current wagon yet. You made it painfully clear in your last wagon about your opinions.
Could you post a summary on your case?

[Tean Samargo]

@Wicked
Sweet Jesus, replying to that on phone will be a bit of a pain. I'm visiting the library in a bit, so I'll hold off till then.

[Tean Samargo]

I never thought your post was meant to be a 'read'. Not sure why you got that impression. Also not sure how this distinction affects the validity of my points...

The difference would be in the time-frame. My opinion on the play was of what happened back then, whereas a read would be more current. You seem to be suggesting that my opinion was current, seeing that you pointed out a contradiction between my note on mastin and the mastin of right now. As seen here:

The thought, “I think most of her actions are cryptic as f***” is a very strong opinion that is very surprising considering mastin has actually just started revealing more AND Tean had never mentioned mastin prior to this.

Read, opinion or whatever. It doesn't matter what you call it. The point is, our mindsets are based on different timeframes. You think my post is about current matters, and I intended it to be about something that happened during a small period of time early on.

Glad you have admitted that 'idolizing' was a stretch - it still bothers me though. And eyestott trusted that mastin had reasons he couldn't immediately divulge with us, but I don't consider that blindly following - he waited several days before voting dave. Your use of the word 'people' in 'people are practically idolizing her' and 'blindly following her' also seems like a stretch if this is your only example. Do you have any other examples?

No other examples. I only noticed eyesttot doing this. I tend to refer individuals as 'people' sometimes. Pardon my english. How do.

I don't think I'm blowing anything up. You say that you voted dave because he was suspicious and not because of what mastin said. But mastin never gave explicit reasons for suspecting dave, so EVERYBODY voting dave had to give their own reasons, just like you. Even eyestott, your example follower, voted dave for claiming prematurely - this was not a point that mastin mentioned prior to his vote. Nobody ever said anything along the lines of "Look this guy said he's scum without explaining - lets trust him", everybody gave their own reason for joining just like you. I think you're blowing this up.

Like I said, if they voted with a reason, its because there's something scummy about the person. I didn't say that the voting itself was blindly following, but rather the interaction before the voting seemed like some people (in this case Eye) were blindly following to me.

When did I say that?

You didn't, but I assumed this was the reason why you thought I was about to jump on Mastin.

Also, I'm also anticipating you to ask why I haven't posted this opinion earlier. To that I say that this opinion has nothing helpful to offer to town. I am simply saying that I dislike a play for earlier. This is basically a crap post. The only reason why I'm mentioning it now is because someone asked me, and I was curious to see where they were going with this.
Looking at the aftermath, its seems the question was just as useless as the answer.

[Tean Samargo]

@dodgy
I just saw your last post. It seems like you are rearing up to jump ship.

[Tean Samargo]

Prod dodge, give us a tad to catch up. The other head's computer is still busted and something unexpected came up for me. Sorry about that.

[Tean Samargo]

1079 - Anen, what you're saying makes sense... but outta curiosity, why are you calling out a
vigilante? Do you think last night was due to a vigilante and scum? I'd like to hear what
you think.

1081 - I agree with BBT here. I don't like you saying "my reads this game have been embarassing"
at all. It's already evident that your reads have been wonky because you're jumpy. Starting with the
Dave wagon (and the eyestott wagon to an extent), you've been jumping ship from "scum" to "not
scum" which ultimately ends with you hammering Dave. This quote gives off the impression that you're
looking for pity from the other townies (as well as maintaining a townie vibe in general).

Your most recent vote on mastin also ruffles my feathers quite a bit. You'd like to question
mastin for starting the whole dave wagon, but you had a change of heart toward dave near the
deadline. What's your reasoning for bringing down the hammer on dave?

I don't think I fancy a beast lynch at this moment of time.

-Faustbyte