Open 584: White Flag (Day 4)

[Lia]

Vote: texcat

'cause one vote isn't enough.

[Lia]

until proven guilty so far we've got nothing

Haven't we?

Unvote
Vote: Joker

It was a toss-up between him and bankaikiller.

@ Droog:

What do you think about joker's reaction to the wagon?

@ Yakko:

Why BBT?

[Lia]

The comment on bankaikiller was for 26. He may not have confirmed yet but he has definitely posted.

The toss-up was because I find them equally scummy. Not a strong read but it's the best I've got so far. Your defence of them is noted.

[Lia]

what reaction

I was referring to 11 and 13 when I posted that, but I wouldn't mind your comments on his later posts too.

[Lia]

So why did you choose Joker over Bankaikiller? Because Joker had more votes, or did you literally toss a coin?

Why did you feel the need to say it was a toss-up between those two? It's as though you were feeling guilty about hopping on the Joker wagon.

Is your comment about me defending them serious?

It would have just been a single vote on Bankaikiller so it made more sense to vote joker. Nope, I didn't literally toss a coin. It was just a figure of speech.

It was mainly to put a bit of pressure on Bankaikiller as I couldn't vote both. Tell me: Do you feel guilty when jumping on wagons?

Possibly. (But it's far too soon to use associative tells.)

[Lia]

he said some rvs things
then said hed asked questions
which i dont remember him asking
and am still waiting for a response on

what else do you want me to say here

Your comment when you voted him seemed a bit incongruous with what went before which is why I asked.

Lia I voted him because reasons.

Ok.

Alchemist, and lia noted for hostility.

Hostility? Where are you seeing that?

[Lia]

So, randomidget:

Why are you voting me? In your own words please.

@ texcat:

What makes you think it isn't possible to get a couple of mild scum reads from the rvs phase?

@ bankaikiller:

No reply to my question?

The idea is to easily track, at a glance, where the votes were, from one vote count to the other. Give it a try, if you still think it's confusing, and most players agree, I'll stop doing it.

Edit: I decided to not only strike but also reduce the size and change the color. I hope that makes it less confusing. You can ckeck the changes in the past votecounts.

Thanks, that's much easier on the eyes! Although I think it would look even clearer without the strikouts and the zero vote lines.

[Lia]

Lia,
It is certainly

possible

. But something rings false to me in your eagerness to find people scummy and in your later defense about it.

You're putting a connotation on those that doesn't reflect what I was actually doing.

Were you voting because you found them scummy or to apply pressure? Wouldn't the best way to "put a bit of pressure on Bankaikiller" be to vote him? Do you think your one additional vote on Joker applied more pressure on him? Is that why you thought it made more sense?

As I said in 47, I had a mild scum read on them. A single vote isn't going to put much pressure on anyone.

What are your reads on Joker/bankaikiller?

See above. But they're still evolving.

@ lia Because your trying to look town.

What makes you think that?

You didn't ask me any question lia, just putting an illusion of pressure on me.

I asked you a question in 75.


@ Alchemist: Why Yakko?

3. He has a town power roll

You do know there are no power roles in this set up, don't you?

[Lia]

@ bankaikiller:

Who was the first line of 60 addressed to? And still no reply to my 75?

@ randomidget:

reply to 120?

@ Yakko:

Any comment on Alchemist's 122?


In 26 bankaikiller calls tex innocent. Or is he saying that the wagon is innocent? Either way it implies knowledge.
60 he makes a vague stament about someone throwing their random accusations around. He also accuses Alchemist and I of hostility but ignored me when I asked where.
100/101/103 votes joker as a counter to the wagon on tex, which he calls idiotic, and tries to buddy up to me - a turn around from 60 - but still no answer about that comment.
107 "...anyways it's fine now, looks like people want to lynch joker, hope he doesn't have an important town roll". This one was really scummy.
119/121 Looks like rolefishing? Why would a townie suggest someone might have a PR? Says he didn't realise it was vanilla and that he was going to toss his evaluations out the window.

Vote: bankaikiller

[Lia]

The original wagon on texcat was formed to get discussion going and was gone, apart from one vote, by the middle of page two. Why were you using it to support your vote on joker on page five?

Try giving answers instead of insults, because the latter aren't going change my mind at all.

@ BBT:

Don't worry, your turn will come.

[Lia]

The statement about Tex's wagon came from posts 101 and 103.

Any hostility you are seeing is only what you are reading into my posts. It doesn't come from me. And I've only put pressure on one random person, in my first post of the game.

Why would I want to pressure BBT? If that is who you mean.

But your last sentence is the giveaway. It tells me you know I'm town. Why would scum want to out town? They don't. They already know who town are.

[Lia]

Welcome to my scumlist prawneater. But you only get second place on it so no vote for now.

You litterally just indicated that you were going after BBT.

Nope. I was just assuring him that he wasn't going to get a free ride all game, from me and/or others. I have a town read on him so far which is why I see no need to pressure him just yet.

[Lia]

@ BBT: It was a gut read from your early posts, and I haven't seen any reason yet to think otherwise.

[Lia]

Edit to add: Nobody gets a free ride all game. There comes a point when even the towniest become suspicous, if only because they are still alive.

[Lia]

@ droog: Hiraki explained his vote on the Luca/Willow slot in 55 after he first made it in 49. He's been voting for them ever since so the fact that he didn't explain it in 187 doesn't seem to be worth the fuss you are making about it.


Current reads list follows (although I would be perfectly happy to lynch Willow unless he starts making more sense).

Town

Alchemist21
BlueBloodedToffee
hi im Yakko
droog
Hiraki
Flubbernugget
Luca/Whomping Willow
joker443
randomidget
texcat
prawneater
bankaikiller

Scum

[Lia]

I don't think Bankai was white knighting. Originally, I think she was just saying that running someone up to 4 votes during RVS was unfounded.

What do you think about the rest of the case against Bankai?

randomidget - it's kinda a meta read. He said that he struggles to generate content on D1. I checked his recent posts and saw he's in another D1 game where he seems to be posting a lot more. Also, if you think my vote history is bandwagony, check out his. Lia, Willow, Hiraki - he goes with whatever flavour lynch of the day.

1. Please don't talk about ongoing games in any way.
2. He's been following the smaller wagons but not the bigger ones. He didn't vote for either joker or bankai.

[Lia]

Why does everyone keep asking me about my opinions on Bankai over and over again? I'm not sure what the rest of the case is. Do I think quitting is a scum tell? No, certainly not by itself. I think frustrated townies are just as likely, if not more likely, to quit.

My case on bankai is in 150, 156 and 158. The quitting didn't come into it.

[Lia]

@ texcat:

What do you think about the rest of the case against Bankai?

Why does everyone keep asking me about my opinions on Bankai over and over again? I'm not sure what the rest of the case is. Do I think quitting is a scum tell? No, certainly not by itself. I think frustrated townies are just as likely, if not more likely, to quit.

My case on bankai is in 150, 156 and 158. The quitting didn't come into it.

Still waiting for your thoughts on this case.

[Lia]

Nag, nag, nag. I've already said I had a null/town read on Bankai. Do you really want me to discuss your case point by point?

I wanted you to comment on the main part of the case because you seemed to be strawmanning it.

Here we see that Bankai claims not to know what RVS means. This could be a lot of the problem. But I agree that "hope he doesn't have an important town roll" looks bad. It looks like Bankai knows Joker is town. Why didn't she say, "hope he's scum".

You think it looks like Bankai knows Joker is town yet it doesn't affect your read on him?

Rolefishing from someone who claims not to know what RVS is or that town does not have any PRs? I doubt it.

Why would not knowing the setup or site meta preclude rolefishing?

And now to the parts you're still not acknowledging.
1. Bankai originally said that he voted joker because he didn't want to see the wagon forming on you go through - but that wagon had gone extinct three pages earlier. When I asked him about it, he denied that his vote on joker had anything to do with defending you.
2. What is your opinion on the last sentence of 157 and the last para of 158?

[Lia]

Are you going to keep asking questions until I agree with you? I've already said everything I have to say on the subject of Bankai.

I'm asking because I'm trying to get a read on

you

. I'm getting the distinct impression that you already know how Bankai will flip. Despite the fact that you said that it looks like Bankai knows Joker is town, and that we were approaching deadline with him as the only viable wagon, you still showed no interest in voting him. Even when it was pointed out to you that the case on him was more than you were making it out to be in 287 and 299. And now you refuse to answer my question on what I think is the most telling part of the case.

More later if the thread hasn't been locked before I get back to it.

[Lia]

Vote: Hiraki

For 378. Mostly for the second para.

[Lia]

Your case is on the foundation of Lia's which is that I want to lynch someone for not properly playing the game and knowing it.

No, that wasn't my case.

Texcat would be my second choice for now. Prawn and random are still in there too.

[Lia]

Do you at least understand my point? This was kind of the smallest and least important part.

Your point seemed to be that you wanted to lynch Willow for his play, regardless of alignment?

Lia, are you still placing Alchemist as one of your top townreads? If so, could you explain to me why?

Not really. I'm not getting that same vibe from him today. I'm going to have to take a closer look to work out why.

ABR is scum on his own merits more than hikari is for defending people.

Why is ABR scum?

[Lia]

Joker's slot + unimpressive posting so far

So when you said that ABR was "scum on his own merits", were you referring to the slot rather than just ABR?


This is what triggered my vote on Hiraki:

I'm just embarassed that you guys are willing to let a player who is willing to play die first ...

He was blaming Alchemist and Flubber for having their votes on ABR when neither could have known that joker was going to be replaced, except maybe if he (joker) were scum and one or both of them was his partner, and neither had had a chance to react to the replacement (since according to 379 he hadn't seen Alchemist's followup post). It looked like he was trying to stir something up. Add to that the fact that despite saying in 277 "My objective in this game is to find scum" he has done next to no scumhunting and has been pushing policy lynches most of the game, only producing 400 after coming under pressure.

[Lia]

Having looked through Alchemist's and Yakko's posts, I think if one is scum the other might be too. But it's not a strong read and I still prefer Hiraki and texcat.

107 "...anyways it's fine now, looks like people want to lynch joker, hope he doesn't have an important town roll". This one was really scummy.

Again, not really. You're taking it much too far into context. There are reasons why that post is scummy but not for those ones.

Not which ones? I didn't give any reasons, just said I thought it was scummy.

@mod: Could you put post 540 in spoilers please? 527 too would be great!

[Lia]

@Lia (i am really lazy)

"I didn't give any reasons, just said I thought it was scummy."

Just because you don't directly state it does not imply that I cannot follow your logic.

What logic?

But no. You don't get to tell me I'm taking something "much too far into context" or tell me my reasons are wrong when the context and reasons are yours, not mine.

what do you think of hiraki
after his big case

I didn't like his case, at all.

[Lia]

Feel free to expand on that ...

I think I'm going to decline that invitation.

While I agree randomiget is scummy, I am uneasy voting him as I believe that too many people see him as too scummy.

I checked this out. As far as I can see, it's only WW and prawneater that have scumreads on him.

[Lia]

If you have any reason to call him town otherwise, feel free to do so.

I've never played with RM before so I don't know his meta. If you see him as scummy in

this

game why are you letting your belief that too many people see him as too scummy stop you voting him? It reads like an excuse to avoid voting a scumbuddy.


Updated reads list

Town

Lia
droog
hi im Yakko
Flubbernugget
Luca/Whomping Willow
joker443
prawneater
Alchemist21
randomidget
texcat
Hiraki

Scum

[Lia]

The list was copied from 281 and updated.

I just forgot to add ABR. Sorry about that. But it's amusing to see that you were so eager to pounce on it that you didn't even bother to check back.

Here's the corrected version:

Updated reads list

Town

Lia
droog
hi im Yakko
Flubbernugget
Luca/Whomping Willow
joker443/ ABR
prawneater
Alchemist21
randomidget
texcat
Hiraki

Scum

not to mention flubbernugget is apparently super townie

Nope, he's not. I'm only confident of the top three on that list. The rest are null to scum. Texcat is the odd one out as I wasn't really sure where to place her as although she is a scum read she doesn't seem to fit in with the others.

i guess i forgot joker too so leme put that guy in somewhere in the middle

Joker

was

on the list but again I guess you didn't actually look to see.

In short, your attempt at mudslinging missed by a good country mile.

[Lia]

So Hiraki is suggesting I took my list from 281 and changed it

back

to look more like the OP?

The bottom part of that list reflects what I said in 432. Only change from there is that Alchemist has slipped down to join them.

[Lia]

And can you explain your town read on Yakko?

His posts make sense and feel like he is looking for scum.

Speaking of which Lia did I miss a town case on yakko from you

Did I miss you asking for one?

That's what I wanna know. She said if I'm scum, there's a chance Yakko is too, so why are we on opposite ends of the spectrum for her reads?

I saw that there was a possible connection between the two of you. That didn't mean that I saw Yakko as individually scummy.

^ C'mon guys, lynch Alchemist

Hiraki first.

[Lia]

My vote is very liquid guys, I just want to live! And to get a decent counterwagon that the majority of us can get behind.

What about texcat? Alchemist is good too. Although I'd still rather stick with Hiraki.

[Lia]

isn't random further down the list than alchemist? (just one). It feels like you skipped random entirely... did it slip your mind?

That list is three days old. It isn't set in stone.

[Lia]

@ Yakko: It was a combination of Alchemist's posts since then, particularly 636 (Why is it a problem that prawneater doesn't want to vote his top townread?), feeling less town and rm's last post feeling more town.

[Lia]

Flubber has defended Hiraki a couple of times and hasn't said a word about Prawneater.

It's possible both wagons are on scum with Flubber the third partner. That might explain the resistance to filling either of them.

But I think a Hiraki/Alchemist/texcat group is more likely.

[Lia]

Texcat and/or Green Crayons.

Vote: texcat

[Lia]

I haven't had time to look at this properly today but I should be able to do it tomorrow.

[Lia]

Sorry about this, I wasn't able to do it at the weekend. I'll catch up Monday.

[Lia]

I've looked at Hiraki's posts, I've looked at the Vote Counts, and I can't see any scumpair working out other than GC and Willow.

The ones I'd rule out from the voting would be WW, prawneater, Narrow and Yakko, unless there was serious bussing but I didn't get that impression. That leaves Alchemist and GC. Hiraki's posts seem to agree with this.


Hiraki's vote on Joker was more or less an rvs vote (25). The wagon built quickly to L-2. Hiraki said L-2 without much being said was bad but that joker was "legit /that/ bad" (43), and then jumped off the wagon in his next post (49). Droog asked him if it was bad enough for L-2. Hiraki replied, "Perhaps not but yes". When Droog pushed a bit more, Hiraki said "Bad does not necessarily equate to scum". (86)

Hiraki defends ABR in 378 but tries to excuse himself for doing it. The defence could have been white-knighting but the excuse makes me think it wasn't.

GC defends Alchemist in 793 and tries to excuse his scumminess. About the only thing I agree with in his 795 on Droog was part of para 2B. With his 798 on Prawn I think the only part I agree with was 2A.


My only concern with an Alchemist/GC pairing is Alchemist's L-1 vote on GC (768), which he removed after 3 hours, but which was quite risky if they were partners. White flag gambit?

Vote: Green Crayons

[Lia]

Lia what do you think of narrows first post?

I don't know, but the first para bothers me a bit. I'm waiting for the "more later" he promised.

[Lia]

I'm starting to second guess myself on this. I'm going to wait until we've heard from Narrow or his replacement before I make my mind up.

Unvote

[Lia]

Which part are you doubting?

Green Crayons. But I'm still scumreading him. Among other things I didn't like the way ABR was dismissive about my case on Hiraki.


WW and prawn were the last surviving players to join the Hiraki wagon and I'm beginning to wonder if one of them could be his partner with Alchemist; most likely prawn. But I still want to hear from SleepyKrew first.

Vote Crayons please.

He made a bad case on Droog/Narrow because he was outside the Hiraki lynch and he doesn't want to bus Alchemist. But Crayons doesn't know that everyone knows that Droog was town.

Alchemist knows better than to vote Droog so he's bussing Crayon and throwing WW into the mix.

I suggest we go crayons today > alchemist tomorrow

If Alchemist is bussing GC and we lynch GC there won't be a tomorrow because the game will be over. I don't think they are partners.

[Lia]

Alchemist and GC may be bussing but where are their votes?

Not on each other. Both are offering you as an alternative.

I went back to take another look at that L-1 vote that Alchemist placed on GC.

At the time of the vote rm, prawn and texcat were already voting GC. Droog was being replaced so the chance of that slot hammering was close to zero and GC wasn't going to vote for himself. Which left WW, who was voting Alchemist and had said GC was town, and Yakko and I who were voting texcat. The possibility of anyone quick-hammering GC so early in the Day may have seemed pretty remote so be worth a gambit. The vote was only left on for three and a half hours.

ToDay their mutual attacks has been in words, not deeds.

Vote: Green Crayons

[Lia]

Thanks for modding this, NJAC.

I was completely wrong about Yakko and that threw me for a bit because I couldn't find a sensible partner for GC, who I was pretty sure was scum (mainly due to my read of ABR), which is why I unvoted for a time.

I guess in the end we were right about the bussing, just wrong about who had done it.