Open 633: Near Vanilla-GAME OVER

[acryon]

VOTE: KainTepes

The sooner we get this over with the better.

[acryon]

I’m wondering where the little lost sheep who have yet to post – SeshatX, KainTepes, Nosferatu – are?

ABR, get in here and help me kill some newbs.

So Lowell do you usually buddy up to ABR? And just for kicks why aren’t you interested in having ABR’s slot help you lynch scum instead of pwning noobs?

VOTE: KainTepes

The sooner we get this over with the better.

Do you normally suggest policy lynches Day 1 as opposed to information based lynches?

Who says it can't be both? And I also KT is a player that heavily disrupts the flow of information, so his death D1 is a win either way.

[acryon]

Who says it can't be both? And I also KT is a player that heavily disrupts the flow of information, so his death D1 is a win either way.

Well from the standpoint that Kain hasn't actually posted in this thread your call can't be anything but a policy lynch at this stage. Unless you want to own up that you have information that he is scum because he's your partner. Is that the case?

No, but having played with him more than once, I don't think it would be absurd to say that his death early is almost as good, if not better, for town as a scum-death.

[acryon]

No, but having played with him more than once, I don't think it would be absurd to say that his death early is almost as good, if not better, for town as a scum-death.

I hear your stance. I guess the original question remains - do you normally champion policy lynches Day 1? Or is this specific only to Kain?

Oh yeah no definitely not. I've never seen a player more disruptive to town progression than KT. I'm still not fully on board with the idea of policy lynches, but KT's existence is truly terrible for town and the game will be a lot more enjoyable/easier to process for all townies with him gone.

[acryon]

Actually, acryon, this is the most negative thing you said about him in the most recent game you've played with him:

Eh I can't help but disagree. His playstyle, town or scum, makes the game less enjoyable for everyone in town. There are a million ways to play the game that don't have that effect on town. Maybe I'm a bit of a purist, but I don't like the idea of leading people astray based on something other than words.

How did you move from "he makes the game less enjoyable" to "lynching KainTepes as town is just as good as lynching scum"?

This one from that game is a bit more of a scathing review if that's what you're looking for:

Spots like KT's are terrible, and I honestly wish there was a broader definition of what defines trolling, because KT's presence in this game makes it worse for every person who is town, because who knows if they are town or scum? They don't say anything, just make noise.

But obviously there is also some amount of hyperbole in my statement re: his lynch being almost as good as a scum-lynch, but honestly not that much.

[acryon]

can we just KT = KTthecreeper and Kain = KainTepes?

It's so much easier this way

lowell: townreading so easily is how I won against you last game as scum fam

Can't promise I won't screw this up from time to time since I've played more than one game with Kain and called him KT every time and never played with KTthecreeper, but I will try since I would also appreciate clarity.

[acryon]

VOTE: Acryon

Lacks any engagement in the game beyond the Policy Lynch issue. At this stage there is plenty to mine to start forming suspicions.

You must be kidding... My first post in the game was yesterday. How is it possible to make a conclusion like that about someone at this point?

I'll be honest that post was annoying enough to push me away but I'm not going to rob the town because you're being foolish.

acryon advocated a KainTepes policy lynch & has done nothing else.

You must be kidding... My first post in the game was yesterday. How is it possible to make a conclusion like that about someone at this point?

I'll be honest that post was annoying enough to push me away but I'm not going to rob the town because you're being foolish.

So, re-reading everyone's ISO's, the only thing Acryon has done is push KainTepes as a policy lynch and respond to non-game-relevant stuff like who the initials KT should refer to. Probably mafia.

You must be kidding... My first post in the game was yesterday. How is it possible to make a conclusion like that about someone at this point? Also why the #%&$ are you ISO'ing someone who has posted 6 posts in a 12 hour period and making conclusions based on it? I'm glad I call you scum later.

I'll be honest that post was annoying enough to push me away but I'm not going to rob the town because you're being foolish.

24/25 <--- who states suspicion only to come back literally an hour later to put a vote down?

Why is it scummy that he came back an hour later to vote?

It felt like he forgot that he thought it was scummy or something

This feels like a major stretch. You just said they stated a suspicion, so how could they forget that he thought it was scummy within the same post?
-Killthestory is town.
-OceanWind is scum. Felt like jumping on the coat-tails of Ollie.
-Undecided on Nosferatu, and I'll admit I'm having a hard time because I think most of her accusers are very annoying.
-Not sure about Magna but his vote on me is truly terrible. The fact that anyone joined in on this absurd reasoning is insane. I have never one time seen someone use a content/activity argument based on the first 24-hour period of the game, and there is definitely a reason for that.
-ChurchOfMercy did ping me in 139. Certainly doesn't feel like ABR at all, just giving everyone a pass.

General thoughts: Several people going back and forth so much this early makes me think scum is going to have an easy time hiding this game. Also a PSA: Just because you've clogged up the game with 30 posts on D1 doesn't mean everyone can or should.

VOTE: OceanWind

[acryon]

It felt like he forgot that he thought it was scummy or something

This feels like a major stretch. You just said they stated a suspicion, so how could they forget that he thought it was scummy within the same post?

Thank you! It's a load of rubbish isn't it.

It is, although admittedly your encouraging me here makes me feel worse about you.

You've had a lot to say and done a lot of good questioning for the most part but your vote is still open. Who's scum?

[acryon]

Hang on, working on a reads list as you type. I'll remember not to encourage you any more in the future. I had a gold star sticker & a motivational speech ready for you as well, which you will now never get.

No, I like encouragement. But it probably earns more scumpoints than town ones.

[acryon]

This feels like a major stretch. You just said they stated a suspicion, so how could they forget that he thought it was scummy within the same post?

oh ya, I forgot 24 and 25 are the same number.

Your sarcasm doesn't answer the question. The whole point being he obviously didn't "forget" that he thought it was scummy since the suspicion was strongly implicated.

Ding ding ding … vote stays. This is pure appeasement posting in an attempt to head further scrutiny.

Everyone who is interested take a look at Acryon’s ISO –

41 – Votes Kain Tepes for policy reasons.
43 / 46 / 53 – responding to my questions about his policy lynch stance.

Now that’s the first few pages. Maybe he just didn’t want to read the thread and comment on the Creeper early wagon and any of the play then. But later he returns for the following posts –

91 – Yet another response regarding his policy lynch stance, this time to Imperium.
93 – Pure fluff saying “I can’t say I will not screw up calling Kain Creeper and vice versa”

So there was nothing worth even discussing by Page 4? Not at all? I disagree.

But I call him out on lack of content and almost immediately – BAM – post both trying to undercut suspicion and get some content into thread.

I didn't actually really read anything between my earlier posts and 91. I skimmed since I had a minute to jump on at night (which I rarely do. Feel free to check my entire posting history and see how many times I post >5PM if you're curious) and wasn't about to read a bunch of back and forth but was willing to respond to a direct question.

Ugh I want to vote you very badly, but I fear you may just be overeager town.

[acryon]

Acryon

- He's pretty much scum reading my town leans list, but hey great point.

Wow you weren't kidding about this. Can we get on the same page? Why are you giving Church towncred for supporting you when he straight up said he didn't read several pages and skimmed? And is Magna asking the right questions? He actually seems to be jumping on low-hanging fruit and seems overly concerned with his standing amongst the town.

[acryon]

Acronym

Give me a few seconds on reads

VOTE: Acronym

Not my name and don't do this.

[acryon]

Thankfully I don't think I have to be too worried since I've literally never been lynched D1.

[acryon]

VOTE: Acryon

Clearly fucking scum with this post alone. Get on my level dammit. Sheep me to victory

Hey you're super town and I am too. Just need to give me a minute.

[acryon]

why would you be worried about being lynched rn lol

I said I wasn't.

Now respond. Why do you think you're pinging me?

Not sure, you may have to help me. Maybe the Kain policy-lynch business but I'd hope someone would be able to take it all with a grain of salt once they've seen my post-RVS play. Which is why I'm not too worried.

[acryon]

He actually seems to be jumping on low-hanging fruit and seems overly concerned with his standing amongst the town.

Hey it's put up or shut up time! In your next post you need to provide a quote that shows me being "overly concerned with his standing amongst the town".

GO!

Oh I didn't see this but that's easy:

Magna is going to be annoying as hell, but, unfortunately, is town.

that was quick.

So what do you think that means then?

Indirectly about you, but still about you.

Hey

Ocean

– why is it that you’ve read everyone’s ISO at 143 and yet I don’t see any mention of me at all in your reads list?

Your KT policy lynch thing was fine. I don't agree with it, but it never really pinged me.

Hmm then what do you got buddy?

why would you be worried about being lynched rn lol

I said I wasn't.

why'd you even mention it tho

Because I had a couple votes and words of suspicion from several of the most active players.

I didn't actually really read anything between my earlier posts and 91. I skimmed since I had a minute to jump on at night (which I rarely do. Feel free to check my entire posting history and see how many times I post >5PM if you're curious) and wasn't about to read a bunch of back and forth but was willing to respond to a direct question.

Ugh I want to vote you very badly, but I fear you may just be overeager town.

Assuming this is true, did you really expect anyone to check your entire posting history, realize that you don't post after 5PM, and therefore that you skimmed and answered a direct question? The fact that you don't see that the suspicion of you is reasonable is more scummy than your play up to that point.

No of course not, but I will continue to stand by the idea that looking at my 6-post ISO and being suspicious is very stupid. There are real things to talk about and be suspicious of in the game of mafia; someone who has literally only posted 6 times and within a period of 12 hours is not one of them.

[acryon]

I didn't actually really read anything between my earlier posts and 91. I skimmed since I had a minute to jump on at night (which I rarely do. Feel free to check my entire posting history and see how many times I post >5PM if you're curious) and wasn't about to read a bunch of back and forth but was willing to respond to a direct question.

Ugh I want to vote you very badly, but I fear you may just be overeager town.

Assuming this is true, did you really expect anyone to check your entire posting history, realize that you don't post after 5PM, and therefore that you skimmed and answered a direct question? The fact that you don't see that the suspicion of you is reasonable is more scummy than your play up to that point.

My response re: the 5 PM was more for the sake of offering fairly definitive proof of the theory being stupid, but it was and is stupid all on its own.

[acryon]

That's interesting. Explain in more detail how you draw that conclusion - the first is quote where I'm asking jmolla for his conclusion on the matter. The second quote is a direct question to Ocean as to why he excluded me from a reads list. Both of which are clearly looking to assess other players by their analysis / lack of analysis as it were.

I like that you also gloss over my discussion with Imp where I make it clear that I don't think Lowell's Town read on me is reasonable. Which is exactly the opposite.

Vote absolutely stays.

You're still prodding for information regarding someone's view of you. jmo clearly took some issue with Lowell said you were town, and you questioned him on it. Regardless of your stated motive, this is you being concerned with someone's having an issue with a townread on you. As for your discussion with Imp, what else were you going to say? Saying the townread is reasonable would just make you look ignorant and/or scummy. Only reason you had anything to say was because someone asked you directly about it. See 55 of yours which was after Lowell's but made no mention of you feeling Lowell's read was unreasonable.

In the case of Ocean, there were plenty of things in his readslist you could have asked about, but instead were only interested in where you stood on it. If your goal was just to assess his analysis, why not start with what he did do and not what he didn't do? (which also happens to be about you)

What else you got? Oh and you don't have to keep telling me the vote is staying. I'll know when you take it off

[acryon]

What else you got? Oh and you don't have to keep telling me the vote is staying. I'll know when you take it off

What else do you think I need again? Your play has been suspect enough so far I'm satisfied you are a good place to vote scume. Lol, you act as if scum can't be caught purely because you only had 6 posts and it was in your first 24 hours of posting. Hint - scum can and do get caught early on. I can show you a game where I caught scum in their very first post of the game.

You fluffed through your posts until I called you out on it. Suddenly - WHAM - active Acryon. Scum reaction IMO.

lol "you fluffed through your first 6 posts of the game and then once the game actually got going, BAM you are active. Scum. Got em." It's almost as if I contribute more when there is more to talk about and it isn't the literal first 24 hours of the game.

Now let's get back to actually finding scum.

[acryon]

You fluffed through your posts until I called you out on it. Suddenly - WHAM - active Acryon. Scum reaction IMO.

Also it may be worth pointing out that there is no winning in this scenario. If I continued to fluff (which I never would) or lurked (which I also never would), then I would be called scum for that. Starting to post more in my second day of the game is NAI at all.

[acryon]

lol "you fluffed through your first 6 posts of the game and then once the game actually got going, BAM you are active. Scum. Got em." It's almost as if I contribute more when there is more to talk about and it isn't the literal first 24 hours of the game.

Now let's get back to actually finding scum.

You keep suggesting it was the first 24 hours of the game when I called you out. It clearly isn't. The game started on Saturday so it is at least 48 hours old when you made your first post. It may be your first 24 hours but there was 2 full days of dayplay to discuss when you first posted.

"2 full days of dayplay to discuss" is I think giving far too much credit to the content created up to the point of my first post and even for a while after. The game was essentially in RVS, and maybe we disagree on that, but I'd rather not clog up this thread going over it.

Your play this game reads overeager. That can be helpful for town, but if you're not scum, learn when to reign it in or you'll tunnel us straight to hell.

[acryon]

-OceanWind is scum. Felt like jumping on the coat-tails of Ollie.

I don't really understand where you're coming from here.
How was OceanWind riding Ollie's coattails? And why would he ride Ollie's coattails?
What do you think of his other points?

Also, why are you reading KTS as town?

Early on, Ollie began his 1v1 with Nosferatu, and it seemed clear through the dialogue that Nosferatu was on the backfoot. Then in 100, OceanWind decides to pile on. This felt like latching on to the low-hanging fruit, but he gets to avoid suspicion since Ollie started it. As for his points I don't like them. He points to not being pro-active as if its definitively scummy, when it's not. Some players are pro-active, others may be more reactive; it's NAI.

Killthestory is mostly a very strong gut feeling, but I also don't see someone trying to gain towncred or fade into the background.

acryon - Scum - His instant suggestion towards a PL early on is something I've seen plenty of town do, but his defense of it was weird as fuck. Instead of replying, "oh it was a joke," or "I don't like him. He annoys me." he responds that Kain would be detrimental for town to get rid of regardless of his alignment. The last time I heard someone say that shit was scum, and the guy before that, and the guy before that. You don't just justify someone's lynch by saying they'd be detrimental to get rid of. You just don't.

If I was being 100% genuine in those statements, my vote would still be on KainTepes. I'm not one for self-meta, but I have never and will never endorse a policy lynch to the extent of actually seeing it carried out. Consider my first few RVS posts as a mixture of RVS and frustration of playing with KainTepes in my recently ended game.

I also don't like that you're giving townleans to essentially everyone just based on providing content.

Lack of engagement isn't scummy.

Hold on a second...

Kain, on the other hand, has been pretty active elsewhere on the site today.

VOTE: KainTepes

Why is potentially being more interested in other ongoing games not as good of an excuse as being more interested in dating sites?

[acryon]

Ugh I want to vote you very badly, but I fear you may just be overeager town.

So this I glossed over in our initial exchange but wanted to circle back to this. Are you suggesting my reasoning and vote for you was scummy? If so why are you afraid to vote for me? Because I see the “you are overeager Town” as an escape hatch you’ve built into this whole discussion so you can justify not calling me scum.

I think the reasoning is terrible. But there is often a fine line between reasoning being bad and scummy, and that was toeing it.

Hey you're super town and I am too. Just need to give me a minute.

For someone who dinged me for being “too concerned about his standing in the Town” this fits that to a tee. Cognitivie Dissonance anyone?

There's a difference between jokingly and clearly mentioning it in passing as opposed to doing it in the form of a question as to not look like you're doing it.

Another thing that I want to circle back to with Acryon –

He actually seems to be jumping on low-hanging fruit and seems overly concerned with his standing amongst the town.

This time I want to highlight the “Low hanging fruit” comment. He’s suggesting I’m attacking him for being a soft target for some reason. Yet he doesn’t see himself as one – he brags about not ever being lynched Day 1. So are we supposed to believe he is both simultaneously an easy target (intimating I am scum pushing on weak Town) and not one?

At the time I was a low hanging fruit. I think once you get a closer look you'll realize I'm not, but that doesn't mean I wasn't at the time within the context of the game.

In the case of Ocean, there were plenty of things in his readslist you could have asked about, but instead were only interested in where you stood on it. If your goal was just to assess his analysis, why not start with what he did do and not what he didn't do? (which also happens to be about you)

Because the issue is not that he presented a reads list. The problem at hand is he supposedly took the time to do detailed ISO reviews and completely managed to miss one of the more active players in the game. Which to me on a gut level says the list is more likely to be fabricated than the result of actual work by a Town player. I’m not thrilled with his response which was “Meh, forgot you … you are Town” - smells of appeasement. But that doesn’t mean your misrep if ignored.

Eh can't help but disagree with you here. I don't think that means he fabricated it at all. If anything it's more likely to be real since if he made it up he probably would have just listed all the players and made comments. Easier to miss one if you're going through ISO's one by one and accidentally skip over a name.

[acryon]

I think the reasoning is terrible. But there is often a fine line between reasoning being bad and scummy, and that was toeing it.

There's a difference between jokingly and clearly mentioning it in passing as opposed to doing it in the form of a question as to not look like you're doing it.

At the time I was a low hanging fruit. I think once you get a closer look you'll realize I'm not, but that doesn't mean I wasn't at the time within the context of the game.

Eh can't help but disagree with you here. I don't think that means he fabricated it at all. If anything it's more likely to be real since if he made it up he probably would have just listed all the players and made comments. Easier to miss one if you're going through ISO's one by one and accidentally skip over a name.

1.So it could be either scummy or just "bad" (which of course I disagree with wholeheartedly, but that's academic for this discussion). So you can go either way with it depending on how you want to frame the discussion?

2. No not really. You may call it joking but it reads to me of trying to buddy up to one of your secondary detractors at that stage. Which is something someone worried about their position would do.

3. Um, whut? So you were Low Hanging Fruit but you are not? I can't wrap my head around the level of self-contradiction here. Either you are an easy target who can get pushed for questionable reasons or you aren't. The fact that you were trying to position yourself as such in a soft attempt to attack me I find suspect given your response here.

4. Agree to disagree on this.

1. Well that's the whole point of the game right? To interpret the intent behind actions because looking solely at actions, scum and town often look very similar.

2. Well I think it's very clear either way that it's a stretch to compare it to what I'm accusing you of, because they look completely different.

3. You're acting as if 1) perception doesn't matter and 2) status doesn't change. As for perception, being or not being low-hanging fruit has a lot to do with the overall town's perception of someone as such. Low-hanging fruit doesn't have a strict definition in mafia since the game is so fluid and differs so much from game to game. In the situation of me, I was a low-hanging fruit to you at the time because I hadn't had a real chance to even post something non-RVS yet you jumped on me for not doing so. Players are not strictly low-hanging fruit or not low-hanging fruit.

[acryon]

2. Well I think it's very clear either way that it's a stretch to compare it to what I'm accusing you of, because they look completely different.

3. You're acting as if 1) perception doesn't matter and 2) status doesn't change. As for perception, being or not being low-hanging fruit has a lot to do with the overall town's perception of someone as such. Low-hanging fruit doesn't have a strict definition in mafia since the game is so fluid and differs so much from game to game. In the situation of me, I was a low-hanging fruit to you at the time because I hadn't had a real chance to even post something non-RVS yet you jumped on me for not doing so. Players are not strictly low-hanging fruit or not low-hanging fruit.

2. So you want to differentiate it enough that you can't be held accountable for Self-Contradictory play? Got it.

3. I'm acting as if you were using weasel language to attack me, that I called you out on it, and now the phrase "Low Hanging Fruit" is some nebulous, ever-changing concept that varies from post to post. Fact is that you were using language calculated to have a negative connotation (translated - MoI is attacking me because I'm an easy target) while not being able to justify how that stance makes any sense. If you were at that point as easy a target as you say then my vote on you would clearly not be using such "bad" logic as you keep claiming. You can't be have been simultaneously be an easy target and being attacked with terrible logic that wouldn't hold up to scrutiny at the same time.

2. Not self-contradictory, especially when it was clearly in a tone of jest and very explicit. It's not what people are explicitly doing/saying that we are worried about; it's what people are doing/saying while trying to not look like that's what they're doing.

3. What? I already pointed to how it made sense. I appeared as "low-hanging fruit" at the time since I had only commented on the policy lynch essentially, and my later posts where I didn't address anything else made it look like I wasn't reading the game. Rather than thinking "Hm, it's only his first day posting; let's see what he has tomorrow", you demonized me as purposefully not commenting on what all had happened within the game. You saw my lack of posts relative to the rest of the game and turned it into --> "Lacks any engagement in the game beyond the Policy Lynch issue."

[acryon]

No of course not, but I will continue to stand by the idea that looking at my 6-post ISO and being suspicious is very stupid. There are real things to talk about and be suspicious of in the game of mafia; someone who has literally only posted 6 times and within a period of 12 hours is not one of them.

The fact that you ignored those real things and pushed a policy-lynch commented on irrelevant things is what I (and I assume others) found scummy. You acknowledge that we can't be expected to know that you weren't caught up with the game. So, I don't get why you overreacted and started calling people stupid/scummy rather than understanding the suspicion but pointing out that you weren't following.

No. It's still absurd. I have literally never one time seen someone comment on someone's content/activity when they had literally been a part of the game for less than 24 hours, and there's a good reason for that.

Frankly, I find your policy-lynch proposal as a bizarre way to kick off the game. But if you were not being 100% genuine, why is your first instinct to call everyone who found you scummy for it stupid? Wouldn't that be the natural reaction of townies to something ingenuine?

No, because the issue wasn't with the policy lynch. The issue was with the lack of "real content" which is a silly expectation when you haven't given someone a real chance to comment on the "real things".

Early on, Ollie began his 1v1 with Nosferatu, and it seemed clear through the dialogue that Nosferatu was on the backfoot. Then in 100, OceanWind decides to pile on. This felt like latching on to the low-hanging fruit, but he gets to avoid suspicion since Ollie started it. As for his points I don't like them. He points to not being pro-active as if its definitively scummy, when it's not. Some players are pro-active, others may be more reactive; it's NAI.

1. How was Nosferatu on the backfoot? I'll need to check but the only person I remember commenting on their interaction was Imperium and he took Nosferatu's side and voted Ollie. I could maybe understand if you were accusing me of defending a player under pressure to get on his side but this is just weird.

2. Town are more pro-active on average because they need to not only avoid getting lynched but to read other players and lynch correctly to win. Mafia are much more likely to be reactive than town. They only need to survive to win. Nosferatu's early play fit this profile as he seemed content to stay below the radar casting a vote and not taking opportunities to engage and refine his read.

3. By your logic, everyone that takes a side in a two-way conflict is suspect is "piling on?" How do you differentiate between my suspicion of Nosferatu and your own? Aren't you by your definition "piling on?"

In the 1v1

---

jmo16mla is probably town. From the few posts he made, he picked up on the same things about Lowell that I wanted to ask about (that quick townread on MagnaOfIllusion) and I agree with his perspective of Lowell's case as well.

Is this a significant read if Lowell is town?

At the time, I liked his posting. But jmo16mla has so little content since then and overall in the game that it's not a read I'm happy about yet. So, I'm not writing him off as town.

On your read on KTthecreeper, I like your explanation but I'd be more convinced if KTthecreeper had actually followed up on his promise to read the thread and post thoughts.

What is your read on Ollie now?

---

@ocean, I'm curious as to your responses to 215. Also, do you have any questions for me?

Did you check out Ollie's games that he linked you to? What did you find?

---

Lack of engagement isn't scummy.

It's actually one of the most ridiculously accurate tells I've seen - a fairly significant percentage of mafia players tend to be much more active and involved as town than as mafia.

Saying "I'm useless D1" isn't an excuse. Everyone's reads get better as the game progresses but that doesn't mean we don't try on D1.

---

I’m not thrilled with his response which was “Meh, forgot you … you are Town” - smells of appeasement.

I don't have an issue with you asking me about why I left you off the list. But having a townread in not appeasement. If I was townreading you, why would I say anything else?

Also, I don't really understand what your issue is with Acryon saying that he is hard to lynch but that people might have attacked him thinking he was low-hanging fruit because he hadn't done much of anything in the first few pages.[/quote]

[acryon]

Early on, Ollie began his 1v1 with Nosferatu, and it seemed clear through the dialogue that Nosferatu was on the backfoot. Then in 100, OceanWind decides to pile on. This felt like latching on to the low-hanging fruit, but he gets to avoid suspicion since Ollie started it. As for his points I don't like them. He points to not being pro-active as if its definitively scummy, when it's not. Some players are pro-active, others may be more reactive; it's NAI.

1. How was Nosferatu on the backfoot? I'll need to check but the only person I remember commenting on their interaction was Imperium and he took Nosferatu's side and voted Ollie. I could maybe understand if you were accusing me of defending a player under pressure to get on his side but this is just weird.

2. Town are more pro-active on average because they need to not only avoid getting lynched but to read other players and lynch correctly to win. Mafia are much more likely to be reactive than town. They only need to survive to win. Nosferatu's early play fit this profile as he seemed content to stay below the radar casting a vote and not taking opportunities to engage and refine his read.

3. By your logic, everyone that takes a side in a two-way conflict is suspect is "piling on?" How do you differentiate between my suspicion of Nosferatu and your own? Aren't you by your definition "piling on?"

Ugh that was not supposed to post, but here's me finishing.

Maybe mod can clean it up and delete the last post from "in the 1v1" and below?

1. In the 1v1 between Ollie and Nosferatu it was very clear who was on the backfoot.

2. Exactly. Part of being town is being pro-active so as to avoid getting suspicion and getting lynched, same as scum. Town may have other reasons for doing it as well, but they're both trying not to get lynched, so I don't think you can say one is more pro-active than the other. If it were, the game of mafia would be a lot easier.

3. No, because if I were to engage Nosferatu, it would be separately. You jumped on in the midst of a 1v1. What's your goal there?

[acryon]

To elaborate, I think if your goal was to gain a better understanding from Nos, doing it while they were clearly already in defense mode isn't really the right time, because it just felt like you beating a horse in the process of dying. See 99. I may be making a bigger deal out of this than I should and may not have quite the evidence to back it up, but it was my first inclination when I read through.

[acryon]

Spoiler:

No. It's still absurd. I have literally never one time seen someone comment on someone's content/activity when they had literally been a part of the game for less than 24 hours, and there's a good reason for that.

The thread was open for a little more than forty-eight hours and there was quite a bit of content by then. Why shouldn't you be expected to post relevant content?

Which is why it's important to look at everything in context. I suppose maybe I shouldn't have expected people to know that real content from me was coming, but it seemed silly to jump on me when it had been such a short period of time from my first to last post at that point.

Spoiler:

1. In the 1v1 between Ollie and Nosferatu it was very clear who was on the backfoot.

2. Exactly. Part of being town is being pro-active so as to avoid getting suspicion and getting lynched, same as scum. Town may have other reasons for doing it as well, but they're both trying not to get lynched, so I don't think you can say one is more pro-active than the other. If it were, the game of mafia would be a lot easier.

3. No, because if I were to engage Nosferatu, it would be separately. You jumped on in the midst of a 1v1. What's your goal there?

1. I don't see how you are interpreting Ollie to be on the backfoot here. They were both arguing and providing their own reasons for why the other was mafia. Imperium had posted a few posts ago whole-heartedly agreeing with Nosferatu and voting Ollie and was the only person to comment. Ollie was the one in the spotlight with Nosferatu leading the attack on him.

2. That's sort of the point of playing the game though. Mafia do try to act like town but may not always succeed. Finding the cracks is how you develop reads.

3. 1v1s are not some separate entity shielded from the rest of the game where no one may comment until it ends. In fact, those types of 1v1s that nobody else is engaged in are often highly unproductive. The best way to progress the game is for other people to pitch in and take stances.

1. 99 felt like a sign of Nos on the backfoot.

2. Agreed.

3. I certainly don't think this is always the case, but I do think there are times to let them ride, and it just felt like piling on to me. Again, this was in my initial read-through and honestly it didn't feel nearly as much like that as I read through it again.

Spoiler:

To elaborate, I think if your goal was to gain a better understanding from Nos, doing it while they were clearly already in defense mode isn't really the right time, because it just felt like you beating a horse in the process of dying. See 99. I may be making a bigger deal out of this than I should and may not have quite the evidence to back it up, but it was my first inclination when I read through.

It was relevant at the time. I'm not going to act like they were engaged in an exclusive duel and wait my turn until they are finished. I

can

see the potential scum motivation in picking a side when two townies argue so I understand your argument. But I also don't think as town, you need to "wait it out" before pitching in. In fact, when people are under pressure from multiple angles, their reactions may be more informative than if everyone ignored the argument and let those two battle it out.

Could be, but it's also an easy way for scum to avoid forming their own questions/reads if they just choose one of the players in a 1v1 and jump on in the middle.

[acryon]

VOTE: Nosferatu

What are you doing?

[acryon]

I'm asking what you mean by "on the backfoot"?

I don't usually do this, but http://lmgtfy.com/?q=on+the+back+foot.

Now that we have that out of the way, what are you doing?

[acryon]

so I don't get your read on me here? I'm out maneuvered so I'm scum?

I don't see a progression here leading up to your vote. It's out of place and worries me.

That part is completely separate from me thinking you are scum. My vote is currently on you because you're not really doing anything. Your past handful of posts have been questions with zero follow-up. Looks like faux-scumhunting.

[acryon]

Now in your previous posts, you've been accusing Ocean of jumping in on me and Ollie's 1v1. You're not wrong here, but your presenting this as something scummy, but a scum read on me for "faux-scumhunting" and a scum read on Ocean for opportunistic intervention doesn't make sense, since Ocean was pushing me along with Ollie, so are you suggesting a bussing interaction here?

I thought it was clear from my back and forth with Ocean that I now feel less confident in that scumread, so you can consider it independent of my scumread on you.

[acryon]

DAY 1 READS
Acryon - Wants to lynch Kain but not really, sees himself as low-hanging fruit that never gets lynched D1, complains that he's being read so early in the game, yet reads others... Scum

Some serious false equivalency here.

Jim/(KainTepes) - Lurker/replace-out, no-content trollposter, Very interesting how much resistance there is to his wagon. Scum.

Maybe because there is no content to analyze? Is trollposting alignment-indicative? (Hint: it's not) Also, what made you think Imperium was scum initially? Because you moved pretty quickly from scum to simply based on meta it would appear.

Words

What a shock that you show up with a reads list nearly identical to what everyone else is already saying. Have anything original to add?

Lack of engagement isn't scummy.

Hold on a second...

Kain, on the other hand, has been pretty active elsewhere on the site today.

VOTE: KainTepesVOTE:

Why is potentially being more interested in other ongoing games not as good of an excuse as being more interested in dating sites?

Because both of our heads posted here and Kain didn't.

Both our heads posted in other games as well.

I even posted on 2 other sites.

Apples and oranges.

Klingoncelt

So not being engaged isn't scummy as long as you've posted at least a couple times, even if the posts were essentially nothing. Funny how you draw the line in the perfect place for it to work in your favor.

Consider this an intent to put COM to L-1. Not going to actually do it since I've been dealing with a lot of quickhammers recently.

[acryon]

See, I could see these 'types' of comments coming from town!ABR but their execution strongly tends towards the scum side!
It somewhat falls flat and doesn't have the visceral feeling that I'd expect from town making these posts. Sort of like it's read off a script, and I don't expect a post like this to come from anyone NOT emotionally invested!

So annoying!

The comments are overall totally NAI. Could just as easily be annoyed town or scum flail.

[acryon]

AtE is not NAI just because you're not capable of sifting through it for whether it's real!

That may be true, but that requires really knowing players and using meta, which I'm generally not comfortable doing since it's fairly unreliable.

[acryon]

If Nosferatu was pretty clearly on the backfoot (aka losing), I don't think it's exactly unreasonable for a town Oceanwind to side with Ollie (the winner); sure, it's possible that OceanWind as scum was siding with the winner, taking advantage of someone when they're vulnerable, but I don't think that's far more likely than someone agreeing with the stronger side of the argument. What do you think of OceanWind's townread on jmo?

Like I said in my back and forth with OceanWind, I've come around on this argument, but at my first read-through it felt like taking advantage.

Regarding his read on jmo, I think it makes sense from his perspective, although I don't necessarily agree that he's town. More null to me, because I haven't see enough.

[acryon]

What do you know of Klingon? I'd like your thoughts on the whole "Kain is scum for not showing up but low engagement is not a scum-tell" thing. Because that causes my alarm klaxons to go ringing big-time. Am I overthinking?

Here, let me help you with that:

Low-volume means volume, just not a lot of it. Some players actually make just one or two short posts per day on this site. The posts generally contain some content.

This is opposed to a flake, someone that completely ignores the game.

How can you not see that the flake is clearly scummier than the low-volume?

Except that a flake is blatant with no hope of not being exposed whereas a low-volume can try to skirt by.

[acryon]

Also, it appears that Kain actually siteflaked.

[acryon]

@Mod: V/LA until Monday morning CST.

[acryon]

Hello sorry I haven't been on in the past few days, some things popped up

So I'm going to read the thread a few times and make a read list on my thought so far

What happened to this?

[acryon]

VOTE: Bellaphant

Nice one, we got 1, 2 to go!

Albert

You think so? It seems like Magna's pretty certain that you'd flip scum which would indicate I was scum as well. He also seems pretty genuine.

I'm still feeling a Severa Bella Nos team maybe?

I don't like this at all. At least one of these is bad. It doesn't make sense for it to be KTS at this point and I still feel like he's town, so my voting intent stays on CoM.

UNVOTE:

I'll see if I can catch up. If not I'm just going to replace out

Never mind I completely reconsider my read on Jmoe this is 99% town without a doubt

Can't agree here. Scum that's busy will know that not being around is going to draw suspicion. There is motivation to replace out in that spot for town or scum.

[acryon]

Yet your vote isn’t on him and has never been on him based on your ISO. Church’s wagon is just sitting at L-2 and lack of push to actually complete the lynch has taken over this thread.

Why are you not voting him?

I've stated this already but I've played several games recently where people quickhammered. I generally prefer to use as much of a day phase as possible, so keeping people off L-1 ensures no quickhammer.

[acryon]

MoI and KTS are just both such... intolerable players.

There are surely some strong personalities in this game.

[acryon]

sort of dont agree with those reads except for severa, but youre good pham

Which reads do you take issue with and why?

[acryon]

I'm incredibly skeptical of SnarkySnowman putting me as sole confirmed scum with current levels of content from my slot.

Feels like an attempt to generate a counterwagon. CoM flips scum that's my first priority.

There is plenty to work with, and although I'm still unsure on you, I think someone getting a scumread on you based on what's there isn't ridiculous.

I'm incredibly skeptical of SnarkySnowman putting me as sole confirmed scum with current levels of content from my slot.

Feels like an attempt to generate a counterwagon. CoM flips scum that's my first priority.

I'm incredibly skeptical of the fact that he read the game in less than a half an hour enough to provide a reads list.

Obviously agree here if this is what happened.

I'm still fine with a Church lynch. I get jaded and whatever. But ABR not actually having a scum read or trying to get a scum read lynched is just so far from any time I've seen him as town it's not funny. This is how I've seen him as scum multiple times though.

Oh, if they do claim something, please don't counterclaim them. If they actually had a role they'd have claimed by now. They wouldn't say that we can win the game without them, and they definitely wouldn't let themselves hover until deadline as the lynch du jour.

This this this.

Consider this an intent to hammer.

[acryon]

Eh, don't like this counterwagon.

VOTE: ChurchOfMercy

[acryon]

Eh, don't like this counterwagon.

Because you think SS is very much town, or you feel COM is pure scum, or...?

I feel COM is scum, I don't feel there's enough to make me believe SS is scum, and this just reeks of a counterwagon away from scum.

[acryon]

@Mod

I'll be V/LA until morning CST on the 25th. I'll have varying levels of availability, but should be fairly available to post at least for the next few days.[/b]

[acryon]

Checking in, but I don't have much to add really. CoM is scum. If they are somehow town, we should all be super annoyed that they threw their game away like they did.

[acryon]

Back! Going to to a read through tomorrow and will add my comments then.

[acryon]

To be honest I am having trouble with this catch up. Lots of ego and lots of walling. Ranger looks town. RC feels town. Lowell feels town. KTS doesn't deserve to keep playing the way he's playing without being scumread.

VOTE: Killthestory

[acryon]

Sorry guys. I just don't have the time to keep up with this particular game like I want to.

Mod: Request replacement.