Open 633: Near Vanilla-GAME OVER

[Killthestory]

dude im literally too good.

church youre getting lynched today you scumlords

[acryon]

-OceanWind is scum. Felt like jumping on the coat-tails of Ollie.

I don't really understand where you're coming from here.
How was OceanWind riding Ollie's coattails? And why would he ride Ollie's coattails?
What do you think of his other points?

Also, why are you reading KTS as town?

Early on, Ollie began his 1v1 with Nosferatu, and it seemed clear through the dialogue that Nosferatu was on the backfoot. Then in 100, OceanWind decides to pile on. This felt like latching on to the low-hanging fruit, but he gets to avoid suspicion since Ollie started it. As for his points I don't like them. He points to not being pro-active as if its definitively scummy, when it's not. Some players are pro-active, others may be more reactive; it's NAI.

Killthestory is mostly a very strong gut feeling, but I also don't see someone trying to gain towncred or fade into the background.

acryon - Scum - His instant suggestion towards a PL early on is something I've seen plenty of town do, but his defense of it was weird as fuck. Instead of replying, "oh it was a joke," or "I don't like him. He annoys me." he responds that Kain would be detrimental for town to get rid of regardless of his alignment. The last time I heard someone say that shit was scum, and the guy before that, and the guy before that. You don't just justify someone's lynch by saying they'd be detrimental to get rid of. You just don't.

If I was being 100% genuine in those statements, my vote would still be on KainTepes. I'm not one for self-meta, but I have never and will never endorse a policy lynch to the extent of actually seeing it carried out. Consider my first few RVS posts as a mixture of RVS and frustration of playing with KainTepes in my recently ended game.

I also don't like that you're giving townleans to essentially everyone just based on providing content.

Lack of engagement isn't scummy.

Hold on a second...

Kain, on the other hand, has been pretty active elsewhere on the site today.

VOTE: KainTepes

Why is potentially being more interested in other ongoing games not as good of an excuse as being more interested in dating sites?

[Lowell]

Just putting a marker down that KT is scum still. I know we moved on to more interesting players, but nothing he's done has made up for his ridiculous panic-flailing at getting his first vote. In fact all he's done is hide.

Also, scumvibes on bella. Very much looks like a player who just wants to look like s/he's interacting--asking and answering pointless questions.

[MagnaofIllusion]

In terms of votes on KT, iirc he was a day 1 mislynch the game I played with him, although I'm glad to say he's settled in a bit. I wasn't trying to be vague, 'one of the votes on him is scum and I'm not saying which', but 'due to my past experience with KT, I can easily see scum pushing a mislynch and with four votes, it's probable that one may be'.

My issue then is that you have done nothing to follow up on the Creeper wagon (other than your interactions with Ollie). Even if you are Town who doesn’t know for certain that Creeper is also Town I would think given your experience in the prior game you would think you would have pushed harder on those wagonners. As it stands you really didn’t even do much with Ollie.

ChurchofMercy

- coulda tried to stick the knife in when I was coming under fire, but said they supported me with no messing about. Wants killthestory to scum hunt, join the club.

Why do you see it as something to Town read this slot for? In your argument you are Town. Who is in best position to stick up for a Town under early fire in your mind?

I don't think it's fair to say that the only reason that Ollie voted for Creeper is because Bella badgered him about the read; I feel like it'd be more fair to say that Bella forced him to look seriously at KT. After all, the only commentary Ollie offered on KT when Bella asked him to play seriously was "he's creepy", which was obviously a joke: he could have said that he didn't have a read, and that would have been reasonable, or he could have offered a weak lean one way or another and done nothing about it and it still would have been reasonable. The reason that I thought that the observation about Ollie coming back and voting KT later was the best line of thought to follow in game because it meant that Ollie left the game, came back to the game, and noticed something that he didn't before. The reasoning that he offered (that he decided that adding pressure was better than not) makes sense; the possible scum motivation that I had in mind when pursuing was that he possible looked at the exchange between him and Bella and thought it looked a bit weak and added the vote to make his play line up with his words.

Does that make sense?

That I suppose is reasonable … and in a round-about way is more or less the read I got from that whole exchange. If anything this whole chain of discussion has been good for establishing a dynamic between Ollie and Bella that can be analyzed later as necessary.

Ugh I want to vote you very badly, but I fear you may just be overeager town.

So this I glossed over in our initial exchange but wanted to circle back to this. Are you suggesting my reasoning and vote for you was scummy? If so why are you afraid to vote for me? Because I see the “you are overeager Town” as an escape hatch you’ve built into this whole discussion so you can justify not calling me scum.

Hey you're super town and I am too. Just need to give me a minute.

For someone who dinged me for being “too concerned about his standing in the Town” this fits that to a tee. Cognitivie Dissonance anyone?

Another thing that I want to circle back to with Acryon –

He actually seems to be jumping on low-hanging fruit and seems overly concerned with his standing amongst the town.

This time I want to highlight the “Low hanging fruit” comment. He’s suggesting I’m attacking him for being a soft target for some reason. Yet he doesn’t see himself as one – he brags about not ever being lynched Day 1. So are we supposed to believe he is both simultaneously an easy target (intimating I am scum pushing on weak Town) and not one?

In the case of Ocean, there were plenty of things in his readslist you could have asked about, but instead were only interested in where you stood on it. If your goal was just to assess his analysis, why not start with what he did do and not what he didn't do? (which also happens to be about you)

Because the issue is not that he presented a reads list. The problem at hand is he supposedly took the time to do detailed ISO reviews and completely managed to miss one of the more active players in the game. Which to me on a gut level says the list is more likely to be fabricated than the result of actual work by a Town player. I’m not thrilled with his response which was “Meh, forgot you … you are Town” - smells of appeasement. But that doesn’t mean your misrep if ignored.

You guys, I'm known for being useless Day1, NAI. I'm more of a Day3 player.

Nope nope nope nope nope nope ….

Kain, on the other hand, has been pretty active elsewhere on the site today.

VOTE: KainTepes

If you have skills, please start using them. This hydra isn't Scum.

Bellaphant probably is.

So lack of engagement with the game isn’t a scum-tell. Yet you are voting Kain solely on that factor since he hasn’t posted here.

And you are calling Bella scum while not voting for her …

VOTE: ChurchofMercy

dude im literally too good.

church youre getting lynched today you scumlords

It would help if you’d vote for them again then Kill …

[acryon]

Ugh I want to vote you very badly, but I fear you may just be overeager town.

So this I glossed over in our initial exchange but wanted to circle back to this. Are you suggesting my reasoning and vote for you was scummy? If so why are you afraid to vote for me? Because I see the “you are overeager Town” as an escape hatch you’ve built into this whole discussion so you can justify not calling me scum.

I think the reasoning is terrible. But there is often a fine line between reasoning being bad and scummy, and that was toeing it.

Hey you're super town and I am too. Just need to give me a minute.

For someone who dinged me for being “too concerned about his standing in the Town” this fits that to a tee. Cognitivie Dissonance anyone?

There's a difference between jokingly and clearly mentioning it in passing as opposed to doing it in the form of a question as to not look like you're doing it.

Another thing that I want to circle back to with Acryon –

He actually seems to be jumping on low-hanging fruit and seems overly concerned with his standing amongst the town.

This time I want to highlight the “Low hanging fruit” comment. He’s suggesting I’m attacking him for being a soft target for some reason. Yet he doesn’t see himself as one – he brags about not ever being lynched Day 1. So are we supposed to believe he is both simultaneously an easy target (intimating I am scum pushing on weak Town) and not one?

At the time I was a low hanging fruit. I think once you get a closer look you'll realize I'm not, but that doesn't mean I wasn't at the time within the context of the game.

In the case of Ocean, there were plenty of things in his readslist you could have asked about, but instead were only interested in where you stood on it. If your goal was just to assess his analysis, why not start with what he did do and not what he didn't do? (which also happens to be about you)

Because the issue is not that he presented a reads list. The problem at hand is he supposedly took the time to do detailed ISO reviews and completely managed to miss one of the more active players in the game. Which to me on a gut level says the list is more likely to be fabricated than the result of actual work by a Town player. I’m not thrilled with his response which was “Meh, forgot you … you are Town” - smells of appeasement. But that doesn’t mean your misrep if ignored.

Eh can't help but disagree with you here. I don't think that means he fabricated it at all. If anything it's more likely to be real since if he made it up he probably would have just listed all the players and made comments. Easier to miss one if you're going through ISO's one by one and accidentally skip over a name.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I think the reasoning is terrible. But there is often a fine line between reasoning being bad and scummy, and that was toeing it.

There's a difference between jokingly and clearly mentioning it in passing as opposed to doing it in the form of a question as to not look like you're doing it.

At the time I was a low hanging fruit. I think once you get a closer look you'll realize I'm not, but that doesn't mean I wasn't at the time within the context of the game.

Eh can't help but disagree with you here. I don't think that means he fabricated it at all. If anything it's more likely to be real since if he made it up he probably would have just listed all the players and made comments. Easier to miss one if you're going through ISO's one by one and accidentally skip over a name.

1.So it could be either scummy or just "bad" (which of course I disagree with wholeheartedly, but that's academic for this discussion). So you can go either way with it depending on how you want to frame the discussion?

2. No not really. You may call it joking but it reads to me of trying to buddy up to one of your secondary detractors at that stage. Which is something someone worried about their position would do.

3. Um, whut? So you were Low Hanging Fruit but you are not? I can't wrap my head around the level of self-contradiction here. Either you are an easy target who can get pushed for questionable reasons or you aren't. The fact that you were trying to position yourself as such in a soft attempt to attack me I find suspect given your response here.

4. Agree to disagree on this.

[acryon]

I think the reasoning is terrible. But there is often a fine line between reasoning being bad and scummy, and that was toeing it.

There's a difference between jokingly and clearly mentioning it in passing as opposed to doing it in the form of a question as to not look like you're doing it.

At the time I was a low hanging fruit. I think once you get a closer look you'll realize I'm not, but that doesn't mean I wasn't at the time within the context of the game.

Eh can't help but disagree with you here. I don't think that means he fabricated it at all. If anything it's more likely to be real since if he made it up he probably would have just listed all the players and made comments. Easier to miss one if you're going through ISO's one by one and accidentally skip over a name.

1.So it could be either scummy or just "bad" (which of course I disagree with wholeheartedly, but that's academic for this discussion). So you can go either way with it depending on how you want to frame the discussion?

2. No not really. You may call it joking but it reads to me of trying to buddy up to one of your secondary detractors at that stage. Which is something someone worried about their position would do.

3. Um, whut? So you were Low Hanging Fruit but you are not? I can't wrap my head around the level of self-contradiction here. Either you are an easy target who can get pushed for questionable reasons or you aren't. The fact that you were trying to position yourself as such in a soft attempt to attack me I find suspect given your response here.

4. Agree to disagree on this.

1. Well that's the whole point of the game right? To interpret the intent behind actions because looking solely at actions, scum and town often look very similar.

2. Well I think it's very clear either way that it's a stretch to compare it to what I'm accusing you of, because they look completely different.

3. You're acting as if 1) perception doesn't matter and 2) status doesn't change. As for perception, being or not being low-hanging fruit has a lot to do with the overall town's perception of someone as such. Low-hanging fruit doesn't have a strict definition in mafia since the game is so fluid and differs so much from game to game. In the situation of me, I was a low-hanging fruit to you at the time because I hadn't had a real chance to even post something non-RVS yet you jumped on me for not doing so. Players are not strictly low-hanging fruit or not low-hanging fruit.

[MagnaofIllusion]

2. Well I think it's very clear either way that it's a stretch to compare it to what I'm accusing you of, because they look completely different.

3. You're acting as if 1) perception doesn't matter and 2) status doesn't change. As for perception, being or not being low-hanging fruit has a lot to do with the overall town's perception of someone as such. Low-hanging fruit doesn't have a strict definition in mafia since the game is so fluid and differs so much from game to game. In the situation of me, I was a low-hanging fruit to you at the time because I hadn't had a real chance to even post something non-RVS yet you jumped on me for not doing so. Players are not strictly low-hanging fruit or not low-hanging fruit.

2. So you want to differentiate it enough that you can't be held accountable for Self-Contradictory play? Got it.

3. I'm acting as if you were using weasel language to attack me, that I called you out on it, and now the phrase "Low Hanging Fruit" is some nebulous, ever-changing concept that varies from post to post. Fact is that you were using language calculated to have a negative connotation (translated - MoI is attacking me because I'm an easy target) while not being able to justify how that stance makes any sense. If you were at that point as easy a target as you say then my vote on you would clearly not be using such "bad" logic as you keep claiming. You can't be have been simultaneously be an easy target and being attacked with terrible logic that wouldn't hold up to scrutiny at the same time.

[Lowell]

@magna- that was a long-ass post to just say you agree with the wagon.

[Ollie]

Ollie began his 1v1 with Nosferatu, and it seemed clear through the dialogue that Nosferatu was on the backfoot.

[Ollie]

ChurchofMercy

- coulda tried to stick the knife in when I was coming under fire, but said they supported me with no messing about. Wants killthestory to scum hunt, join the club.

Why do you see it as something to Town read this slot for? In your argument you are Town. Who is in best position to stick up for a Town under early fire in your mind?

...

This is a natural human tendency, which is probably why Church would make a move like this. Is there a reason you think that he'd be less likely to do this as scum than town?

The last day 1 I had on this site I only just survived being the lynch after a mafia hydra went after me & got their buddies who usually play with them to team up. They killed me night 1, fooled their 'town block' & won. The start of this game had a similar feel so I was happy to see Church pop up & say I'm town at that point. But yeah it doesn't make Church town. I suppose that slot is null for me on reflection because there are lots of people who've handed out easy town credit in this game. I need to see more from them.

[acryon]

2. Well I think it's very clear either way that it's a stretch to compare it to what I'm accusing you of, because they look completely different.

3. You're acting as if 1) perception doesn't matter and 2) status doesn't change. As for perception, being or not being low-hanging fruit has a lot to do with the overall town's perception of someone as such. Low-hanging fruit doesn't have a strict definition in mafia since the game is so fluid and differs so much from game to game. In the situation of me, I was a low-hanging fruit to you at the time because I hadn't had a real chance to even post something non-RVS yet you jumped on me for not doing so. Players are not strictly low-hanging fruit or not low-hanging fruit.

2. So you want to differentiate it enough that you can't be held accountable for Self-Contradictory play? Got it.

3. I'm acting as if you were using weasel language to attack me, that I called you out on it, and now the phrase "Low Hanging Fruit" is some nebulous, ever-changing concept that varies from post to post. Fact is that you were using language calculated to have a negative connotation (translated - MoI is attacking me because I'm an easy target) while not being able to justify how that stance makes any sense. If you were at that point as easy a target as you say then my vote on you would clearly not be using such "bad" logic as you keep claiming. You can't be have been simultaneously be an easy target and being attacked with terrible logic that wouldn't hold up to scrutiny at the same time.

2. Not self-contradictory, especially when it was clearly in a tone of jest and very explicit. It's not what people are explicitly doing/saying that we are worried about; it's what people are doing/saying while trying to not look like that's what they're doing.

3. What? I already pointed to how it made sense. I appeared as "low-hanging fruit" at the time since I had only commented on the policy lynch essentially, and my later posts where I didn't address anything else made it look like I wasn't reading the game. Rather than thinking "Hm, it's only his first day posting; let's see what he has tomorrow", you demonized me as purposefully not commenting on what all had happened within the game. You saw my lack of posts relative to the rest of the game and turned it into --> "Lacks any engagement in the game beyond the Policy Lynch issue."

[Ollie]

Lack of engagement isn't scummy.

My attention is mostly focused on dating right now

Mafia is falling to the wayside

I will coordinate with Klingon in our PT and offer my thoughts and criticisms. If you all want to gang up on us before we get a footing, that's your right of course. You can win without us, I believe in you.

Albert

Big co-ordinated reads list of everyone please.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@magna- that was a long-ass post to just say you agree with the wagon.

Lowell if you had bothered to actually read it you would have observed it is certainly more than just discussing the wagon on Church. But aside from your super Town read on Kill and CoM and Creeper is scum any other observations?

[Lowell]

Nah I'm good for now.

[Ollie]

In no order, bit more solid than my last reads...

Town Leans

MagnaofIllusion

- Still pushing people hard, asking the right questions, seems healthily suspicious of every player in the game.

OceanWind

- No change (had alot of the same questions for Nos as me & articulated some good stuff that I couldn't, so I don't see that as riding on my coat tails)

Imperium

- The highest riser in my charts. Excellent reading of the early dynamic with me & Bella. Didn't just drop what he was on about earlier but did drop it after following up, which anyone reasonable would. Townie trait to constantly reassess your reads & not just tunnel like a dick head.

Killthestory

- Is now providing plenty of content which is helpful. I think this slot is town because of the form of the arrogance displayed towards Church, exemplified best in post 250 (top of page 11).

Acryon

- He WAS low hanging fruit to be fair. Has a habit of making good points, most recently about Church. Has come under fire but he has my support. (but not my encouragement)

Null

KTthecreeper

- The early wagon puts me off scum reading when I mesh that with the explanation for the early vote & the accounts of early KT wagons being common. But now I realize there was no scum hunting in your posts you can't be town yet.

ChurchofMercy

- Not much aggression coming out of this slot, could be a sitting duck as a result. They really need to get on the front foot in this game. I do want them to be town but I can see why alot of others are getting stuck into them.

jmo

- I liked that he had a problem with Lowell's early town read but not much else to go on. May move into my scum pile if he doesn't start doing more stuff soon though. The stuff he has said has been a bit short & snappy, maybe so he doesn't give too much away.

KainTepes and SeshatX

- The life & soul of the party.

Scum Leans

Lowell

- Oh look, someone's been relegated. Evasive when questioned in this game, most recent example being in post 264 when he shuts down Magna's reasonable request for some more observations. You don't wanna be town read? You won't be then.

Bellaphant

- She asked me for a recent town game, made no comment on it later. I mean I could be wrong but that looks like she wasn't really that bothered. I'm not gonna force you to read one of the games I provided for you Bella, but if you never read or now don't want to after all, tell me why. & what made you ask?

Nosferatu

- I wanted to be able to pat myself on the head for being objective & at least move you into the null list. But the only new thing is taking a bite at poor Acryon after killethestory had voted for him. So there's nothing overtly town that warrants it a change I'm just left with the early scummy stuff. Can I see a full list of your reads, is that reasonable? I don't see you interacting with many people.

[Lowell]

@Ollie- glad you agree with my scum reads, basically.

But BTW, I've seen way too many "participation-hunters" be way off the mark. That you're concerned so much about other people's participation makes me think you're looking for an easy target.

[OceanWind]

No of course not, but I will continue to stand by the idea that looking at my 6-post ISO and being suspicious is very stupid. There are real things to talk about and be suspicious of in the game of mafia; someone who has literally only posted 6 times and within a period of 12 hours is not one of them.

The fact that you ignored those real things and pushed a policy-lynch commented on irrelevant things is what I (and I assume others) found scummy. You acknowledge that we can't be expected to know that you weren't caught up with the game. So, I don't get why you overreacted and started calling people stupid/scummy rather than understanding the suspicion but pointing out that you weren't following.

Frankly, I find your policy-lynch proposal as a bizarre way to kick off the game. But if you were not being 100% genuine, why is your first instinct to call everyone who found you scummy for it stupid? Wouldn't that be the natural reaction of townies to something ingenuine?

Early on, Ollie began his 1v1 with Nosferatu, and it seemed clear through the dialogue that Nosferatu was on the backfoot. Then in 100, OceanWind decides to pile on. This felt like latching on to the low-hanging fruit, but he gets to avoid suspicion since Ollie started it. As for his points I don't like them. He points to not being pro-active as if its definitively scummy, when it's not. Some players are pro-active, others may be more reactive; it's NAI.

1. How was Nosferatu on the backfoot? I'll need to check but the only person I remember commenting on their interaction was Imperium and he took Nosferatu's side and voted Ollie. I could maybe understand if you were accusing me of defending a player under pressure to get on his side but this is just weird.

2. Town are more pro-active on average because they need to not only avoid getting lynched but to read other players and lynch correctly to win. Mafia are much more likely to be reactive than town. They only need to survive to win. Nosferatu's early play fit this profile as he seemed content to stay below the radar casting a vote and not taking opportunities to engage and refine his read.

3. By your logic, everyone that takes a side in a two-way conflict is suspect is "piling on?" How do you differentiate between my suspicion of Nosferatu and your own? Aren't you by your definition "piling on?"

---

jmo16mla is probably town. From the few posts he made, he picked up on the same things about Lowell that I wanted to ask about (that quick townread on MagnaOfIllusion) and I agree with his perspective of Lowell's case as well.

Is this a significant read if Lowell is town?

At the time, I liked his posting. But jmo16mla has so little content since then and overall in the game that it's not a read I'm happy about yet. So, I'm not writing him off as town.

On your read on KTthecreeper, I like your explanation but I'd be more convinced if KTthecreeper had actually followed up on his promise to read the thread and post thoughts.

What is your read on Ollie now?

---

@ocean, I'm curious as to your responses to 215. Also, do you have any questions for me?

Did you check out Ollie's games that he linked you to? What did you find?

---

Lack of engagement isn't scummy.

It's actually one of the most ridiculously accurate tells I've seen - a fairly significant percentage of mafia players tend to be much more active and involved as town than as mafia.

Saying "I'm useless D1" isn't an excuse. Everyone's reads get better as the game progresses but that doesn't mean we don't try on D1.

---

I’m not thrilled with his response which was “Meh, forgot you … you are Town” - smells of appeasement.

I don't have an issue with you asking me about why I left you off the list. But having a townread in not appeasement. If I was townreading you, why would I say anything else?

Also, I don't really understand what your issue is with Acryon saying that he is hard to lynch but that people might have attacked him thinking he was low-hanging fruit because he hadn't done much of anything in the first few pages.

[acryon]

No of course not, but I will continue to stand by the idea that looking at my 6-post ISO and being suspicious is very stupid. There are real things to talk about and be suspicious of in the game of mafia; someone who has literally only posted 6 times and within a period of 12 hours is not one of them.

The fact that you ignored those real things and pushed a policy-lynch commented on irrelevant things is what I (and I assume others) found scummy. You acknowledge that we can't be expected to know that you weren't caught up with the game. So, I don't get why you overreacted and started calling people stupid/scummy rather than understanding the suspicion but pointing out that you weren't following.

No. It's still absurd. I have literally never one time seen someone comment on someone's content/activity when they had literally been a part of the game for less than 24 hours, and there's a good reason for that.

Frankly, I find your policy-lynch proposal as a bizarre way to kick off the game. But if you were not being 100% genuine, why is your first instinct to call everyone who found you scummy for it stupid? Wouldn't that be the natural reaction of townies to something ingenuine?

No, because the issue wasn't with the policy lynch. The issue was with the lack of "real content" which is a silly expectation when you haven't given someone a real chance to comment on the "real things".

Early on, Ollie began his 1v1 with Nosferatu, and it seemed clear through the dialogue that Nosferatu was on the backfoot. Then in 100, OceanWind decides to pile on. This felt like latching on to the low-hanging fruit, but he gets to avoid suspicion since Ollie started it. As for his points I don't like them. He points to not being pro-active as if its definitively scummy, when it's not. Some players are pro-active, others may be more reactive; it's NAI.

1. How was Nosferatu on the backfoot? I'll need to check but the only person I remember commenting on their interaction was Imperium and he took Nosferatu's side and voted Ollie. I could maybe understand if you were accusing me of defending a player under pressure to get on his side but this is just weird.

2. Town are more pro-active on average because they need to not only avoid getting lynched but to read other players and lynch correctly to win. Mafia are much more likely to be reactive than town. They only need to survive to win. Nosferatu's early play fit this profile as he seemed content to stay below the radar casting a vote and not taking opportunities to engage and refine his read.

3. By your logic, everyone that takes a side in a two-way conflict is suspect is "piling on?" How do you differentiate between my suspicion of Nosferatu and your own? Aren't you by your definition "piling on?"

In the 1v1

---

jmo16mla is probably town. From the few posts he made, he picked up on the same things about Lowell that I wanted to ask about (that quick townread on MagnaOfIllusion) and I agree with his perspective of Lowell's case as well.

Is this a significant read if Lowell is town?

At the time, I liked his posting. But jmo16mla has so little content since then and overall in the game that it's not a read I'm happy about yet. So, I'm not writing him off as town.

On your read on KTthecreeper, I like your explanation but I'd be more convinced if KTthecreeper had actually followed up on his promise to read the thread and post thoughts.

What is your read on Ollie now?

---

@ocean, I'm curious as to your responses to 215. Also, do you have any questions for me?

Did you check out Ollie's games that he linked you to? What did you find?

---

Lack of engagement isn't scummy.

It's actually one of the most ridiculously accurate tells I've seen - a fairly significant percentage of mafia players tend to be much more active and involved as town than as mafia.

Saying "I'm useless D1" isn't an excuse. Everyone's reads get better as the game progresses but that doesn't mean we don't try on D1.

---

I’m not thrilled with his response which was “Meh, forgot you … you are Town” - smells of appeasement.

I don't have an issue with you asking me about why I left you off the list. But having a townread in not appeasement. If I was townreading you, why would I say anything else?

Also, I don't really understand what your issue is with Acryon saying that he is hard to lynch but that people might have attacked him thinking he was low-hanging fruit because he hadn't done much of anything in the first few pages.[/quote]

[acryon]

Early on, Ollie began his 1v1 with Nosferatu, and it seemed clear through the dialogue that Nosferatu was on the backfoot. Then in 100, OceanWind decides to pile on. This felt like latching on to the low-hanging fruit, but he gets to avoid suspicion since Ollie started it. As for his points I don't like them. He points to not being pro-active as if its definitively scummy, when it's not. Some players are pro-active, others may be more reactive; it's NAI.

1. How was Nosferatu on the backfoot? I'll need to check but the only person I remember commenting on their interaction was Imperium and he took Nosferatu's side and voted Ollie. I could maybe understand if you were accusing me of defending a player under pressure to get on his side but this is just weird.

2. Town are more pro-active on average because they need to not only avoid getting lynched but to read other players and lynch correctly to win. Mafia are much more likely to be reactive than town. They only need to survive to win. Nosferatu's early play fit this profile as he seemed content to stay below the radar casting a vote and not taking opportunities to engage and refine his read.

3. By your logic, everyone that takes a side in a two-way conflict is suspect is "piling on?" How do you differentiate between my suspicion of Nosferatu and your own? Aren't you by your definition "piling on?"

Ugh that was not supposed to post, but here's me finishing.

Maybe mod can clean it up and delete the last post from "in the 1v1" and below?

1. In the 1v1 between Ollie and Nosferatu it was very clear who was on the backfoot.

2. Exactly. Part of being town is being pro-active so as to avoid getting suspicion and getting lynched, same as scum. Town may have other reasons for doing it as well, but they're both trying not to get lynched, so I don't think you can say one is more pro-active than the other. If it were, the game of mafia would be a lot easier.

3. No, because if I were to engage Nosferatu, it would be separately. You jumped on in the midst of a 1v1. What's your goal there?

[OceanWind]

Reading through MagnaOfIllusion's and Acryon's arguments on the current page, I'm actually agreeing with Acryon more than MagnaOfIllusion. The latter calling my post where I called him town "appeasing" was ridiculous and smacks of "look at me, I'm accusing people that are townreading me." I also thought Acryon's point on low-hanging fruit was fairly straightforward. He says he's not but he might be perceived as such based on early play. So, I have no idea why MagnaOfIllusion is incapable of understanding it after several explanations. I still want my own concerns answered but I'm less suspicious of Acryon than before.

[Nosferatu]

What the hell is a backfoot?

[acryon]

To elaborate, I think if your goal was to gain a better understanding from Nos, doing it while they were clearly already in defense mode isn't really the right time, because it just felt like you beating a horse in the process of dying. See 99. I may be making a bigger deal out of this than I should and may not have quite the evidence to back it up, but it was my first inclination when I read through.

[OceanWind]

No. It's still absurd. I have literally never one time seen someone comment on someone's content/activity when they had literally been a part of the game for less than 24 hours, and there's a good reason for that.

The thread was open for a little more than forty-eight hours and there was quite a bit of content by then. Why shouldn't you be expected to post relevant content?

1. In the 1v1 between Ollie and Nosferatu it was very clear who was on the backfoot.

2. Exactly. Part of being town is being pro-active so as to avoid getting suspicion and getting lynched, same as scum. Town may have other reasons for doing it as well, but they're both trying not to get lynched, so I don't think you can say one is more pro-active than the other. If it were, the game of mafia would be a lot easier.

3. No, because if I were to engage Nosferatu, it would be separately. You jumped on in the midst of a 1v1. What's your goal there?

1. I don't see how you are interpreting Ollie to be on the backfoot here. They were both arguing and providing their own reasons for why the other was mafia. Imperium had posted a few posts ago whole-heartedly agreeing with Nosferatu and voting Ollie and was the only person to comment. Ollie was the one in the spotlight with Nosferatu leading the attack on him.

2. That's sort of the point of playing the game though. Mafia do try to act like town but may not always succeed. Finding the cracks is how you develop reads.

3. 1v1s are not some separate entity shielded from the rest of the game where no one may comment until it ends. In fact, those types of 1v1s that nobody else is engaged in are often highly unproductive. The best way to progress the game is for other people to pitch in and take stances.

To elaborate, I think if your goal was to gain a better understanding from Nos, doing it while they were clearly already in defense mode isn't really the right time, because it just felt like you beating a horse in the process of dying. See 99. I may be making a bigger deal out of this than I should and may not have quite the evidence to back it up, but it was my first inclination when I read through.

It was relevant at the time. I'm not going to act like they were engaged in an exclusive duel and wait my turn until they are finished. I

can

see the potential scum motivation in picking a side when two townies argue so I understand your argument. But I also don't think as town, you need to "wait it out" before pitching in. In fact, when people are under pressure from multiple angles, their reactions may be more informative than if everyone ignored the argument and let those two battle it out.

[OceanWind]

1. I don't see how you are interpreting

Nosferatu

to be on the backfoot here.