Open 651: Stack the Deck (Game Over)

[superbowl9]

Yo!

VOTE: light_ganski

You were scum last time, why not again this time ?

@njac we decided to only use daytalk cause didn't want to load town with prs and play the night action guessing game (daytalk is just rly good tho).

[superbowl9]

Daytalk is better imo because the tradeoff of recruiting doesn't really make it worth it. You don't have to guess who your third partner is, but you're giving town another pr (you're gonna want to guess who it is

and

what role they have) as opposed to only having to guess who the traitor is. I also really love daytalk because this game can change so so much over the course of a day, town can set traps etc. for scum and if town springs something unexpected on you and you want to bus/vote/do something else really risky and your scum partner isnt on the same page it can lose you the game.
/theory

[superbowl9]

@shaddow wouldn't town be just as likely to look for it? I missed it too btw :/
Also why do you want to vote sora? (this applies to njac as well)

[superbowl9]

Can you elaborate on "nice place for my vote to be"?

[superbowl9]

I proposed, she accepted .

[superbowl9]

I'm usually EST but I'm in California rn (PST for those without google).

[superbowl9]

I know that rerolls are random, but I find it highly unlikely that the same people got the same roles, or that even one of the two got the same roll.

Gambler's fallacy. If you roll a 6 on a die, is it any less probable that you'll roll a 6 again the next time?
I think what Bastion was talking about was the fact that you used non-rvs reasoning to justify taking off an rvs vote. "I randomly voted for this person, but on second thought they're probly not scum" That second part kinda implies you thought I was scum in the first place, even tho your vote was RVS.
Not that I agree with Bastion's read though.

[superbowl9]

Was going to write a long post but flying back home today so that'll probly come tomorrow. Just gonna write some quick thoughts/early reads here tho:
I find kyndy's case to be a stretch/pretty bad but i agree with a couple points. Was very slightly scumreading vedith before her post tho which hasnt changed.
I do not like NJAC's play so far and he is my prime lynch target rn. I would vote him but since i cant really elaborate on anything I'll save it for tmrw.
@bastion why do you think vedith's confidence is a good thing?
Slight townread on sora and bastion.
I think thats it but anything i missed will be at the start of my long post.
Bye California!

[superbowl9]

So "X is scum" has more content than "I think X might be scum"?

[superbowl9]

confidence = content

So "X is scum" has more content than "I think X might be scum"?

[superbowl9]

Was going to write a long post but flying back home today so that'll probly come tomorrow. Just gonna write some quick thoughts/early reads here tho:
I find kyndy's case to be a stretch/pretty bad but i agree with a couple points. Was very slightly scumreading vedith before her post tho which hasnt changed.
I do not like NJAC's play so far and he is my prime lynch target rn. I would vote him but since i cant really elaborate on anything I'll save it for tmrw.
@bastion why do you think vedith's confidence is a good thing?
Slight townread on sora and bastion.
I think thats it but anything i missed will be at the start of my long post.
Bye California!

The time has come!

Not to bring up old business, but the thing I forgot about was 110 and answering for other people. I mostly agree with Bastion but I want to say that interjecting yourself into an interaction is not always bad. It's also generally true (at least afaik) that keeping information to yourself (besides pr identities and other obvious exceptions) is bad for town, because the more accurate information we have the better. If you have an idea that nobody else has considered you should put it out there. Ofc I also agree that letting interactions happen naturally is also critical, cause you can get reactions/info and all, but I think you need to have a balance between those two sides of it.

Can you elaborate on "nice place for my vote to be"?

Not much to elaborate actually. Sort of a RVS vote. Sort of a pressure vote. Sort of maybe shadow could be onto something.

What exactly was shadow onto? Sora literally has one rvs post before this. That's like me saying I'm onto something with Raskolnikov rn. Regardless of your alignment, blindly sheeping the IC then claiming there's some kind of substance behind it when there clearly isn't is anti-town.

Combine this with the general lack of detail in his posts (51, 119) and it gives me the feeling that he's flying under the radar despite having the second highest post count. Someone who's that impressionable and makes empty statements (119 is again a prime example) is not someone I want to have around as town.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: NJAC

I felt that vedith was a little too jumpy around 64, and at first I thought that his confidence, which kind of contrasts the (imo) nervousness shown in that area, was also a sign of scum (makes sense to me since townies have less info and thus are less likely to be decisive). Bastion's post has made me want to lynch vedith less because his argument about the posting volume makes sense (vedith has the most posts so far), but still leaves me with vedith as my prime scumspect (although I think NJAC is the best lynch option atm im not sure about his alignment).

Add onto that our hero lycanfire who came in and messed with vedith a bit and wagoned him for all of 2 seconds. At first I didn't really see much of worth from this interaction, but then vedith posted150, which screamed salty at me when I first looked at it. Vedith can't resist taking a jab at lycan because he's thoroughly spooked by him (which I would read as nervous scum poking at something that's provided really nothing content-wise (seriously)).

Bastion is my stronger townread. Everytime he posts it feels like he's moving the game along. 80 is good, town points for poking at shadow and some of the first scumhunting of the game.

81 and 110 also give me a "friendly pro-town reminder" feeling that is genuine as far as I can tell.

Sora is my weakest read (he only has 1 content post) but that post pushes me ever so slightly town on him because it was the first (iirc) reads post and it also got the game moving and gave it a bit more of a serious content tone (prompted vedith's 132). I would like to see more from him before having a solid read though.

@bastion has your kyndy vote/read changed from her recent interactions?
@kyndy is vedith your only read atm?

[superbowl9]

@57: Completely agreed that Vedith didn't see that the IC was confirmed by the mod and was playing otherwise.

Okay this has been going on for a while now and I think it's about time i put in my 2 cents.

I think the main problem here is in semantics (more specifically the word "look"), so I'm going to edit some language in posts here, signified by

this blue

.
It all starts with this post:

@shaddowez - Pretty sure he could've just missed lilith saying you were town

It's definitely possible, but don't you think scum would look for

a modpost to tell them that there is

an IC in a game where it's a known possible role?

Then kyndy misinterprets what shaddow means by that "look":

@shaddowez - Pretty sure he could've just missed lilith saying you were town

It's definitely possible, but don't you think scum would look for an IC in a game where it's a known possible role?

But IC are conftown by mod at the beginning of the game, so why would scum need to look for them XD[/quote]
kyndy's "look" here means to hunt for by playing the game, much like the mafia would "look" for a traitor in this setup were they to choose to not recruit.

THAT misunderstanding leads to THIS misunderstanding:

But IC are conftown by mod at the beginning of the game, so why would scum need to look for them XD

Because voting an IC can draw negative attention which scum don't want.

Here Vedith interpreted kyndy's post as:

But IC are conftown by mod at the beginning of the game, so why would scum need to look for

them

the modpost telling them that there is an IC

XD

and responded sensibly (under that interpretation)

This whole thing then gets pretty much dropped until kyndy's 137 (the long vedith one)

But IC are conftown by mod at the beginning of the game, so why would scum need to look for them XD

Because voting an IC can draw negative attention which scum don't want.

But they don't have to worry about voting an IC anyways because the mod already conftowned them.

Because voting an IC can draw negative attention which scum don't want.

Plus, at this stage, only scum know how many roles there are for town.
Finding out that IC is one gives them a lot of information.

But they wouldn't need to vote the IC to know the IC is one because the IC is conftowned by the mod at the beginning of the game! This argument is so elementary, I don't understand why this was even offered up.

Here kyndy seemingly forgets what her interpretation of "look" was in 54 (probably because it was a really long time ago) and, as a result, quite humorously ends up completely agreeing with vedith's argument.

That brings us to sora's response to kyndy's post:

@57: Completely agreed that Vedith didn't see that the IC was confirmed by the mod and was playing otherwise.

We are in deep here folks. Sora interprets Vedith's 57/58 to be vedith using kyndy's definition of "look" (when he was actually using the shaddow definition of look), which makes vedith's post look as though he never even saw the IC modpost in the first place (which, in actuality, is not the case{see 23}).

/rabbithole
~~~

ONTO THE ACTUAL IMPORTANT STUFF

This segues on nicely into why I really don't like Vedith's recent postings. After he goes off on how I'm wrong on kyndy (which is fair enough, argument is always good), what seems to surprise me is that he doesn't go after anyone else.

I like this. Vedith's game seems to have been, as Sora states, focusing on one person at a time. This is reinforced by 23's "who's next" (as if he's going through a person by person checklist) and several other similar townlist posts (55, 115). His ISO also has a distinct lack of looking at a large amount of people in the same post (think the long sora/kyndy posts/reads lists) which suggests a "reactionary" type of play, as I believe Sora put it.

Combine this with the general lack of detail in his posts (51, 119) and it gives me the feeling that he's flying under the radar despite having the second highest post count. Someone who's that impressionable and makes empty statements (119 is again a prime example) is not someone I want to have around as town.

If you want me to give more detail or elaborate on something just ask. As I said in 119, I was reading Kindy leaning town, but I didn't want to add details because she was being pushed and I wanted to see her defense instead of defend her myself. WRT the naked vote on Sora in 51 I didn't feel the need to add details, but I gave them later on request.

That's exactly my point.
The fact that you don't see any need to provide your reasoning with a post leads to things like the naked vote or unjustified reads. The problem with these types of things (and what makes them anti-town) is two-fold:

1. There's a risk that nobody will ask you for your reasoning, whether because of forgetfulness or lack of curiosity, meaning less information for town
2. You can change what you choose to say your reasoning was between the time of your post and when you're asked about it. You can really easily manipulate info in this way.

That's why your attitude is anti-town and why I want you lynched.

@superbowl:

Again WRT 154: You seem to make some arguments against Vedith, and you literally say he's your "prime scumspect", yet you vote me. This seems very silly, why exactly am I "the best lynch option"?

Also, there's already a wagon formed on Vedith. If he's your prime scumspect why don't you support that wagon instead of forming a new one.

Pretty inconsistent

I just clarified why I want you lynched, but you bring up a good point here and I should probably clarify myself. Anti-town=/=scummy. Being anti-town doesn't necessarily mean I think you're scum, it just means I think that the town is better off without you. Being scummy means you're acting like the mafia would act. You can be pro-town and scummy or anti-town and towny (although these cases are admittedly rare).

My scumread on Vedith wasn't very strong when I made my post (it's grown stronger since), so you were the better lynch option, considering I'm not town reading you and you have an anti-town attitude. Even though I was/am slightly scumreading Vedith, as Bastion pointed out he provides content for the town to work with and thus it is better to keep him around. I'm fine with lynching either of you, I just think you need to go first. I'll join Vedith's wagon if it comes to that point where I'm obviously not going to get one on you/the vedith wagon seems like its going to be the actual D1 lynch, but otherwise why would my vote not be on the person I want to lynch most?

@NJAC: Can you please give reads of some sort? I'd love to see who you consider to be the prime suspect now, if you don't mind.

Yep, I was going to give my reads after commenting on some recent posts.

A bit of patience please

.

Leaning scum: Sora, superbowl.
Null: light, kindy, Lycan, everyone else
Leaning town: Bastian, Vedith, shadow

This is why I don't just use my vote to wagon. By placing my vote on you (combined with some other people beginning to scumread you) you provide this reaction, which I can only see as a jumpy/nervous reaction lash-out against sora, along with a naked reads list.

Take a guess as to where the people who pushed/scumread NJAC go in his reads list. Very OMGUS-like, once again indicating nervousness. Maybe if you had some reasoning as to why you're reading people this way I would be able to dismiss this initial impression, but you haven't provided me with anything to say otherwise.

@NJAC are you still nullreading kyndy?

[superbowl9]

@NJAC are you still nullreading kyndy?

Now she's kinda leaning scum after her reads on 167.

Take a guess as to where the people who pushed/scumread NJAC go in his reads list. Very OMGUS-like, once again indicating nervousness. Maybe if you had some reasoning as to why you're reading people this way I would be able to dismiss this initial impression, but you haven't provided me with anything to say otherwise.

Well, you've provided me with some evidence now.

Predit: lol when u accidentally hit submit instead of preview

[superbowl9]

I don't want to pester you too much, but before you do anything else Vedith could I get a reads list please?

No, you can't
I will give you my reads when I feel ready and justified.

You can however, watch my opinions progress as the day passes.

Considering that the wagons are heating up and this post
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Vedith

[superbowl9]

Well to start
UNVOTE:
VOTE: NJAC

Can we get this wagon moving folks

I can see why Vedith would claim after thinking about it from his perspective for a little. Doesn't really matter if I believe him tho, lynching a claimed
un-cc'd pr doesn't make sense.

His comment about Superbowl is basically - "Yeah, we got our mis lynch tomorrow"

Which comment?

I want to know your meta before this.

As for why I said it was Vedith being Vedith, I think 95's a perfect example of the type of posts you make.

Scum found.
You want to know my meta, but you imply that you know it already from the type of posts I make.
This could be Vedith not being Vedith, but you have already decided that this is Vedith being Vedith while asking for meta on me.
And you can't say that this is wrong, because you are responding to a comment about me with saying that it's my usual play, just to ignore it (TYhis is what I get from, Vedith being Vedith).

OK I see another incoming semi-semantic misunderstanding here so just gonna nip this one in the bud.

What I read Sora's statement as was "just Vedith being Vedith from the typical way he's been playing in the game". Like I haven't metad NJAC (I don't like the whole concept of meta) but let's say he throws out another anti-town post. I could say "just more of NJAC being NJAC", cause that's what he's been doing for most of the game.

The reason I have been holding out for my main comments is because I knew scum would try and use this as an excuse, as they don't actually scum hunt.

Can you give me an example of scum trying to use this as an excuse?

Also @Everyone - Stop saying you are going to do a big post, this isn't fucking school, put your hands down and just do one.

I find this helpful. Lets say im about to switch off to do hwk or something cause the game hasnt been moving. If I see "big post incoming" (esp. if it has a time) it lets me better manage when I'm reading/posting/off thread. Plus if I was going to make some big kyndy-esque iso breakdown it would help to know that they're going to be putting out a lot of content soon so I can hold off on that.

[superbowl9]

Did...You...Just...Say...What...He...Meant?! This is boarder line answering a question on someone else behalf. Now he can go "Yeah, that!"

I disagree. Will roleclaim if I have to and if the other town players request it.

I only want to lynch Soya today.
Talk to me about his meta comments while saying that my play is standard for me.

[superbowl9]

Can we please stop doing this "x is town" "This post is scum" etc. as just naked statements
It really doesn't help the game or anyone in it if you're not gonna actually give the reasoning behind a certain conclusion.
It doesn't have to be long sora style shit but just a few words would be helpful.

[superbowl9]

Can we please stop doing this "x is town" "This post is scum" etc. as just naked statements
It really doesn't help the game or anyone in it if you're not gonna actually give the reasoning behind a certain conclusion.
It doesn't have to be long sora style shit but just a few words would be helpful.

This post is scum.

Agreed

Agreed

[superbowl9]

What's up with those quotes?

[superbowl9]

im writing a post rn just saw this in the other window and had to comment

[superbowl9]

How does the wagons heating up and that post correlate?

I looked at the VC at the time of that post, saw you and vedith with equal wagons, and thought to myself, "well both of these wagons look like they're going somewhere, and I want to lynch vedith more than I want to lynch kyndy. Meanwhile the NJAC wagon doesn't look like its going anywhere so time to vote vedith".

superbowl/177 post analysis is good but the problem is that he's only doing it because his reads are wrong, not sure how much i like it.

What? Looking at 177 I only reinforce my previous reads.

@superbowl:

In case you didn't note it, 218 and 221 were addressed at you. Please answer those questions.

Sry must have forgot about em

Considering that the wagons are heating up and this post
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Vedith

But that post is townie. What exactly is wrong with that post?

Has a very defensive tone. Just added onto the whole Vedith being defensive/not willing to contribute that much feel.

I'll join Vedith's wagon if it comes to that point where I'm obviously not going to get one on you/

the vedith wagon seems like its going to be the actual D1 lynch

Y'know, I was wondering, why are you limiting our lynch options this early? You seem to be fine with lynching Vedith, but I still don't see why we should lynch him. I also think we're still in the early D1 and some players have not engaged in the game yet, so why do you think no other wagon will gain traction?

I can't really provide you with any solid evidence on this one, it's more of just that's how I felt the game was going at that moment. There were a lot of people scumreading either vedith or kyndy, and 3 votes on each wagon, at that time, imo, felt like that would mean each wagon was going somewhere. That doesn't mean I didn't or don't think new wagons could form (im hoping one forms on u rn) or things could change, just how I felt at that moment.

Can we please stop doing this "x is town" "This post is scum" etc. as just naked statements
It really doesn't help the game or anyone in it if you're not gonna actually give the reasoning behind a certain conclusion.
It doesn't have to be long sora style shit but just a few words would be helpful.

This post is scum.

Agreed, though I sense a bit of newbness. For some reason SB thinks every single read has to be accompanied with a detailed explanation, when it's obvious that this early in the game reads are based on little evidence.

Also, giving out constant and completely explained and detailed reads can even help scum to decide who to kill and how to adapt their own faked reads.

Call me a newb if you like (this is my 6th game) but no I do not think that every read needs a detailed explanation. Did you read the third line of my post? If you don't have evidence for a read, well then say that. Gut reads are absolutely fine. What I don't find fine is just making an unjustified statements. Sure if you have some huge rope a dope conspiracy and you need to naked vote or whatever to complete your master plan, that's fine. It's just that it's not exactly the best habit to get into if you want people to actually agree with you or respect your statements at all. Did anyone base their play or reads off Vedith's "wxyz are town" lists? What I'm saying is stuff like that is a lot less helpful than putting down your reasoning, because seeing your reasoning can change minds, whereas naked statements can't.

superbowl/239 i liked how he trying to lead town up until he flipped his vote for no damn reason. if your top scumread claims goon cop, you grill your top scumread until you're sure they're goon cop. either superbowl is scared scum or this is S+Traitor interaction.

I can see why Vedith would claim after thinking about it from his perspective for a little. Doesn't really matter if I believe him tho, lynching a claimed
un-cc'd pr doesn't make sense.

That was my reasoning at the time.

However after re-reading vedith's post/looking into the setup more (not to play the noob card but haven't played this setup before/haven't really played too many setups) the true semi-useless of the gooncop has really hit me. Really claiming goon cop is not all that different from claiming doc in a lot of other setups in that it's a very dubious claim that the mafia could easily use (except this one's actually worse because there's no incentive for a scum nk unless they have goons left). So basically, where I went wrong in my post was that whether or not I believe him

does

make a difference.

So, do I believe him?
Find out on the next episode of dual-post z

[superbowl9]

How does the wagons heating up and that post correlate?

I looked at the VC at the time of that post, saw you and vedith with equal wagons, and thought to myself, "well both of these wagons look like they're going somewhere, and I want to lynch vedith more than I want to lynch kyndy. Meanwhile the NJAC wagon doesn't look like its going anywhere so time to vote vedith".

superbowl/177 post analysis is good but the problem is that he's only doing it because his reads are wrong, not sure how much i like it.

What? Looking at 177 I only reinforce my previous reads.

@superbowl:

In case you didn't note it, 218 and 221 were addressed at you. Please answer those questions.

Sry must have forgot about em

Considering that the wagons are heating up and this post
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Vedith

But that post is townie. What exactly is wrong with that post?

Has a very defensive tone. Just added onto the whole Vedith being defensive/not willing to contribute that much feel.

I'll join Vedith's wagon if it comes to that point where I'm obviously not going to get one on you/

the vedith wagon seems like its going to be the actual D1 lynch

Y'know, I was wondering, why are you limiting our lynch options this early? You seem to be fine with lynching Vedith, but I still don't see why we should lynch him. I also think we're still in the early D1 and some players have not engaged in the game yet, so why do you think no other wagon will gain traction?

I can't really provide you with any solid evidence on this one, it's more of just that's how I felt the game was going at that moment. There were a lot of people scumreading either vedith or kyndy, and 3 votes on each wagon, at that time, imo, felt like that would mean each wagon was going somewhere. That doesn't mean I didn't or don't think new wagons could form (im hoping one forms on u rn) or things could change, just how I felt at that moment.

Can we please stop doing this "x is town" "This post is scum" etc. as just naked statements
It really doesn't help the game or anyone in it if you're not gonna actually give the reasoning behind a certain conclusion.
It doesn't have to be long sora style shit but just a few words would be helpful.

This post is scum.

Agreed, though I sense a bit of newbness. For some reason SB thinks every single read has to be accompanied with a detailed explanation, when it's obvious that this early in the game reads are based on little evidence.

Also, giving out constant and completely explained and detailed reads can even help scum to decide who to kill and how to adapt their own faked reads.

Call me a newb if you like (this is my 6th game) but no I do not think that every read needs a detailed explanation. Did you read the third line of my post? If you don't have evidence for a read, well then say that. Gut reads are absolutely fine. What I don't find fine is just making an unjustified statements. Sure if you have some huge rope a dope conspiracy and you need to naked vote or whatever to complete your master plan, that's fine. It's just that it's not exactly the best habit to get into if you want people to actually agree with you or respect your statements at all. Did anyone base their play or reads off Vedith's "wxyz are town" lists? What I'm saying is stuff like that is a lot less helpful than putting down your reasoning, because seeing your reasoning can change minds, whereas naked statements can't.

superbowl/239 i liked how he trying to lead town up until he flipped his vote for no damn reason. if your top scumread claims goon cop, you grill your top scumread until you're sure they're goon cop. either superbowl is scared scum or this is S+Traitor interaction.

I can see why Vedith would claim after thinking about it from his perspective for a little. Doesn't really matter if I believe him tho, lynching a claimed
un-cc'd pr doesn't make sense.

That was my reasoning at the time.

However after re-reading vedith's post/looking into the setup more (not to play the noob card but haven't played this setup before/haven't really played too many setups) the true semi-useless of the gooncop has really hit me. Really claiming goon cop is not all that different from claiming doc in a lot of other setups in that it's a very dubious claim that the mafia could easily use (except this one's actually worse because there's no incentive for a scum nk unless they have goons left). So basically, where I went wrong in my post was that whether or not I believe him

does

make a difference.

So, do I believe him?
Find out on the next episode of dual-post z

[superbowl9]

There's three parts of me that are conflicted over this claim.

1. My read

My read from everything other than the claim post says scum. As I mentioned in this post in response to NJAC the posts leading up to the claim post (209, 212, 216) all give me a "nervous scum who feels he's about to be lynched" type of feel. Add my scumread from earlier, and my read says it's a fakeclaim from scum, and pretty surely as well.

2. My gut/222

This can basically be summed up as empathy. I literally asked myself the question, "if were Vedith, would I have claimed here?" (assuming Vedith is goon cop). Everything about 222 hits me with a gut town feeling when I look at it from this perspective.

From the more relaxed tone
(claiming would relieve lots of pressure if he's town but would still be stressful if he's scum)
to the placement of the claim
(if i were scum vedith i'd put this claim front and center at the very start of my post, also why would I respond to people if I'm claiming? "yeah you suspect me but I just claimed this role so you have to unvote me" type of thing).
To even explaining the setup
(and how doing that makes his claim less likely to be believed by people who weren't thinking about the setup stuff like me).
Everything about this claim and post gives me the gut reaction of believing Vedith.

3. The theory

The final thing I've done is remove the names from this situation and look at it purely from a theory point of view. Would this claim be beneficial from a scum standpoint? (Vedith's already done this a little)

From the scum side, there's a couple scenarios. If the scum picked nothing, then, as Vedith said in 234, he could be betting that the other role is not a goon cop (20% chance there is a goon cop) and using this as a gambit. This gambit is even riskier though, because if a goon flips at any point we will instantly question why Vedith was not nk'd, putting him back in the hotseat.
I don't think this is likely though, because wayyy back in the start of the game (24), Vedith expressed his opinion that scum choosing nothing was unheard of to him.

That leads me to the next option, which is scum picking buffs. Firstly, if they don't recruit and buff themselves (keep in mind 24), then there's no risk of a goon flip, so the "why didn't they nk you" argument leaves. Every other scenario is pretty much the same as if they picked no buffs but with increased chances for goon cops to cc.

One last thing to note is the scum prs. Obviously scum want to keep the prs, so they may be less likely to gambit and take a risk that early.
~~
So the theory says that it is certainly possible Vedith could have done this as scum, but it would be a gambit.
My gut says believe the claim.
My read says scum.

I'm honestly way too conflicted to call it one way or another. I need more info, whether that be flips or more of Vedith posting.
Lycan's post, although it did change my thought process, didn't change my vote. I still think we should lynch NJAC more than Vedith, and with the amount of people who are scumreading him/don't like his play in this game I find it strange that I'm the only one who's voted him.
This post was really really long so im gonna split it in two for (hopefully) easier reading .

[superbowl9]

Well that didn't turn out so well. Ignore 291 ig

[superbowl9]

Thank you, thank you!
I'd like to thank the academy and lycan, my biggest influence!

[superbowl9]

Wanna see heebee come back too.

With 2 conftown and a few good townreads already I actually have high hopes for this lynch.

"High hopes"
Scum code found

[superbowl9]

I'll probly post sometime today, what a time for NJAC to go V/LA tho. Wanted to see how he reacted to the pressure of a building wagon.

[superbowl9]

Don´t expect that much. Its (hopefully) not going to be very long.

[superbowl9]

@Hebee is everything not signed bee from hebi? Did your reads evolve? I get the lycan vote but the vedith vote is seemingly based on one interaction, and njac vote is based off of "doing it right"?

@Highhopes

That being said:
Vedith is not a lynch for today.

Why? I thought I knew what you were saying at the time but now i want to know your reasoning.

Kyndy's been feelin town recently
I'll probably elaborate on this later but if i dont remind me

@shaddow (and kinda everyone) would you be ok with an NJAC lynch today? Who would you lynch over him?

[superbowl9]

Can I point out that in 342, Superbowl is asking for permission to have a lynch? Does that bother anyone else? It bothers me

What does this even mean

[superbowl9]

VOTE: Hebee

Oooh, just what we needed. A naked vote on someone who has no votes and hasn't posted in two days while there are currently three wagons. I'm sure this will get things moving.

[superbowl9]

@sora who are you not okay with lynching today?

[superbowl9]

VOTE: Hebee

Oooh, just what we needed. A naked vote on someone who has no votes and hasn't posted in two days while there are currently three wagons. I'm sure this will get things moving.

So you didn't bother on reading any of my other posts? I assume that's what you're insinuating with your ignorance here.

What do your other posts have to do with a vote on someone without a wagon without reasoning while there are ongoing wagons? (btw the only thing I can find that even looks like it could possibly be a rationale as to why we should lynch hebi besides "obvscum" is this: "Hebee does more content. Nothing notable.") Sure you say you wanted to lynch hebi 3 posts ago, but I'm not sure why that makes my post ignorant, or my points invalid. Makes me wonder whether you understood my post. Need me to clarify?

[superbowl9]

VOTE: Lycanfire

Okay with <5 days till deadline you should probably either be convincing us really well and really fast to wagon Lycan or just voting one of the people being wagoned that you most want to lynch (NJAC based on your 396 reads)

[superbowl9]

I think I've said I'm fine with lynching NJAC if it comes down to it but my gut scum read on Lycanfire is much stronger.

What I'm saying is that time is now. This is how no lynches happen. The deadline comes a lot faster than you expect and the last thing we want as town is to have no decisive wagon on the same day as deadline. You trying to start a wagon on someone very few people are scumreading with this little time left (when you have a scumread with a wagon on them already) is not helping town unless you have some sort of big bombshell that would convince everyone to wagon lycan.

[superbowl9]

@SB:

Have you seen no lynches very often?

I think we have plenty of time, why the hurry?

No, I've never seen a no lynch.
What I have seen, however, is shitty, last second wagons/lynches that either don't leave time for a claim and reaction or basically allows scum to wagon whoever they want, since everybody suddenly starts panicking the last day before deadline and ridiculous startup wagons begin to sound like a good idea.

The deadline comes faster than you expect.

Things can come up too, and can limit your access (or sometimes you just have busy days). It does not make sense to screw around with pointless votes this close to the deadline, especially when your second lynch candidate has a wagon. Why would you wait around until the last second, which is beneficial to scum when you have the opportunity not to?

[superbowl9]

No, I don't want hebee. I think there's better options and wanna hear more. I'd probly join if its the main wagon with like 1-2 days left.

[superbowl9]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------------MAFIA GAME THEORY TALK------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So i'm going to assume I need to actually show some people why giving out too many reads list are a bad idea and refusing to give them is not scummy


Here is an iso from the mafia thread of a scum hydra player from a game I played (poor term to describe me getting destroyed) just under a year ago named Beardedcat

He was scum in a game with daychat and he wrote over a 140 posts in the pt tracking every players reads.

post 154 sums it up best

Giving out too many reads list throughout a game can lead to this, telling everybody who you think is town and who you think is scum allows scum to get a map of the town

ESPECIALLY if a game can potentially have daychat

and that sort of play destroys town, I mean they absolutely bollocked us from here to the moon. We lost control of the vote by day 2 because scum knew which buttons to press to set player A off on player B


and we can potentially have daychat here.


Thats an extreme example, but you'll find similar processess on a smaller scale.

Good point I never thought about that

[superbowl9]

Oh wait, I just reread. I thought you said you would vote her if needed, but now I see you'll explain your read on her when needed.

*backs off after Bastion indicates a change of reads on him*


Hm. NJAC is going back to null-scum.

He's literally been doing this the whole game. This was a big part of my case against him since like page 5.

[superbowl9]

@NJAC are you still nullreading kyndy?

Now she's kinda leaning scum after her reads on 167.

He literally did it to you here kyndy...

[superbowl9]

he pr slipped waaaaay back here

^^^^^
I was really trying to not have to discuss light even tho she was making it hella hard cause of this crumb that seemed to go relatively unnoticed, but still didn't work ig.

[superbowl9]

I am pissed at vedith though cause I thought he picked it up too, hence why he was staying on Sora and me prodding him earlier if he was avoiding joining light's wagon or convinced about Sora here and I thought he was trying to be subtle here

Rule number 1 - Don't expected me to do anything good. I'm useless. :<

Regardless, I saw that, but I personally never take crumbs like that, because I think crumbs are a complete waste of time. It gives scum the exact same information as town get.
Scum look for crumbs more, this is why I try to never crumb.

My mentality on not discussing it. Anytime I want to try to subtly call attention to something in a post I just realize that if I'm calling it out enough that the person who I think is town (you cant even be sure of this) will be able to see it, so will scum.

[superbowl9]

ok then I'll remember Rule number 1


So aside from not being NJAC whats appealling about the Hebee wagon?

Not confirmed town!

Is this still about 42
Please tell me its not

[superbowl9]

goddamnit I got the genders mixed up again *facepalm* Its because of the avatar, I keep thinking death note and arrghhh

Originally I was going to make my avatar light from death note as well.
Imagine how confusing this game would've been

[superbowl9]

Is this still about 42
Please tell me its not

Does my townblock scare you?
Are you admitting to scum?

What

[superbowl9]

Oh. Well, the wagon on Sora makes sense now.

I didn't think of that

D: I forgot the scum could have daytalk; wow. And Sora has been pushing reads lists out of everyone..

Good point

I never thought about that

Really? You never thought of that even when I mentioned something similar?

Also, giving out constant and completely explained and detailed reads can even help scum to decide who to kill

and how to adapt their own faked reads

.

I remember you saying this but I didn't really get the impact of it until Bastion's example.

[superbowl9]

I'm fine with a hebee wagon. I just want her to post first. If it's not related to defending herself I'll be on the wagon as well.

Even tho it's a WIFOM that flip/NK makes me believe Vedith's claim. So my town rn is
Me shaddow vedith bastion

I'm nulltown on kyndy after looking at her early game interactions.
I also like lycan but want him to post more.

I'd lynch either hydra rn, assuming the next hebi post is non-defense/bad defense.
So for now VOTE: HighHopes
Idk if I've said my case on the hydras before but I'm too tired rn.

[superbowl9]

QH is bad though not even necessarily AI for KTS (it's pretty terrible if you can say that about someone...).

Can I get an abbreviation translation please

@bastion's post if this is truly the situation we should lynch vedith first.

[superbowl9]

Why should we lynch Vedith first?

vedith's claim was the riskier of the two

HH is basically ccing vedith tho so if vedith flips town then HH is lying, so they would be the next lynch. What would HH scum have to gain from this?

Doesn't matter anyways because that's no longer the situation.

if it wasnt for the fact that almost everyone else who posted didnt think twice about the posts and were gunning to lynch HH out the gate I would be calling bullshit

but you did that follow up post with the little story of the five year olds

cause honestly that really does read like you confirming it says *not a goon*

thats my concern right now

and yes, Kyndy is not a goon.
I was worried that I over complexed my post, so I sat 12 5 year olds down and asked them to explain what I meant in that post.
2 other them started talking about fire engines, but the other 10 said to me "This means Kyndy isn't a Goon."

You can see what I'm getting at here.

Tbh I thought this was a stretch at first but after looking back at the posts I find it kinda valid. The result would be "Not a goon" or "no result". The way vedith phrases it in his posts

I also checked Kyndy. Not a goon.

and

And yes, Kyndy is not a goon.
I was worried that I over complexed my post, so I sat 12 5 year olds down and asked them to explain what I meant in that post.
2 other them started talking about fire engines, but the other 10 said to me "This means Kyndy isn't a Goon."

If he got a "no result" I don't think he would've phrased that first one as he did. Wouldn't a more natural way to say that be "I checked Kyndy, she's not a goon" and for the second one "Kyndy's not a goon" or "Kyndy isn't a goon"? The use of the exact phrasing multiple times makes me suspicious.
Also the fact that he was one of the people who didn't miss that "shadow is town" modpost, and yet he misreads his result and then confirms it? I really just don't buy it. And just when I was starting to townread him -.-
VOTE: Vedith

I have reason to highly suspect Superbowl as well, but explaining the reason will be boarder line unfair sportsmanship. :<

Is this a football joke? Or do you mean something else with unfair sportsmanship?

[superbowl9]

HH is basically ccing vedith tho so if vedith flips town then HH is lying, so they would be the next lynch. What would HH scum have to gain from this?

You're actually trying to prepare 2 mis lynched even though I have already confirmed that HH isn't lying regardless of I'm lynched.

And no I mean in this game. I'm probably thinking too much into it but small information tells me something.
For the fun of the game I'm just going to on a case for you instead.

Like I said, that's no longer the situation, so even if we lynch you and you flip goon cop that could just mean you misread, not necessarily that HH was lying. What I put there was only relevant if you said that your result was in fact not a goon and HH kept her claim.

[superbowl9]

Why is heebee being voted on? Was it due to low activity? He doesn't seem scummy at all from his ISO.

Kinda, combination of very little content, not explaining vote switches (which are incompatible with stated reads btw) and overall opportunistic play. That's imo at least, don't know whether anyone else has put out a case.

Are there a total of 2 or 3 mafia in the game? I get the feeling there is 3 from reading the setup, but I was a bit confused because the initial posts said day chat could be selected as an ability.

There's three total, two goons and one traitor. They can choose up to 3 power ups (one of them is to recruit the traitor).

[superbowl9]

I say we popcorn mass claim today.

Sure why not at this point.

[superbowl9]

Also how long until hebee gets prodded? Does prod timer reset after every new day start?

[superbowl9]

Okay they don't, so should be soon right?

[superbowl9]

Lycan

superbowl

291-292 i tell him that his reads (vedith and njac) suck (266), he responds by saying his post analysis 177 is a push on his reads... which is what i said, my problem was that they sucked. can't say i have any problem with how he got to those conclusions, all i could tell him was that the conclusions sucked. seemed like a dodge, but if he wanted to dodge why say anything? responding is weird, imo ... and finally do i believe vedith?

You said I was only analyzing because my reads were wrong. I interpreted that as you thinking I was changing my reads with the analysis because they were "wrong". If that's not what your post meant, what did it mean?

#293 i'm not going to give a real answer, but i'll lynch vedith or njac but won't explain why those two + bastion are on sora/ironstove and how he must be a townfucker as a result

I'm honestly way too conflicted to call it one way or another. I need more info, whether that be flips or more of Vedith posting.

Did that read "I'd lynch Vedith" to you?
Did you miss my case on NJAC?
Did you want me to explain why three people were voting someone else?
Did I miss me townreading sora slot somewhere in 293?

#342 "@Hebee is everything not signed bee from hebi? Did your reads evolve? I get the lycan vote but the vedith vote is seemingly based on one interaction, and njac vote is based off of "doing it right"?" where is this interaction he talks about in any of hebees posts??? 190 191 192 193 194 323 324 325 331. it's like he wants hebee's support in his vedith push but didn't bother to read his teammates' posts, because he thought he'd never get questioned by it

#323 to sora v vedith: "I think you're likely town here and they're likely scum." doesn't think sora v vedith is TvT. worried that sora isn't going to make it to night? bad interaction with sora, it's like he's trying to pick up the slack and tell sora that they aren't pushing properly.
#324 votes vedith

When he asks what the interaction is but references it two lines earlier
It's almost like he wants to paint me as scum but doesn't even bother reading his own posts

That post was me trying to get hebi to provide some sort of justification on anything. It's a hydra so I was thinking that the two accounts probly clashed with each other leading to read inconsistencies, but even if that's the case that doesn't really add up unless a couple other things are true. It's not even a pro-hebi post, actually the exact opposite.

superbowl- #422 "i don't want hebee"... [next day] "I'm fine with a hebee wagon. I just want her to post first. If it's not related to defending herself I'll be on the wagon as well."/votes highhopes. #551 "HH is basically ccing vedith tho so if vedith flips town then HH is lying, so they would be the next lynch. What would HH scum have to gain from this?"

See if you looked at the post you just quoted you would see that I thought hebi was inconsistent af for seemingly no reason (maybe if we used some advanced detective work we could also figure out that I didn't think hebee had given enough explanation). Combine that with lurking and you have yourself a scumread. Is the /votes highhopes part supposed to contradict something else here? What is the relevance of the part after that?

#486 he seems to get upset about weird things in general like how he asked everyone to stop the laconic "X is scum" posts. funny how vedith references the town bloc in how he determined "hebee not confirmed town"/482 which upsets super.

Lol yeah I know who would want people to explain their reads and votes
oh

#293 i'm not going to give a real answer, but i'll lynch vedith or njac

but won't explain

why those two + bastion are on sora/ironstove and how he must be a townfucker as a result

back to superbowl, hold onto your shit. hebee basically left here after hoping on njac after considering that their initial read was "wrong"(325/331), that sora and i were good lynches (he

explained me but sora?????

outta no where. distance post) in 454

The 482 thing thought that vedith was implying that NJAC was town. He used very similar language when talking about NJAC's supposed townslip early in the game, thought he may have been referencing that fact again which would have been stupid, hence the "are u rly doing this".

VCA

Horseshit (FTFY)

Votecount 1.019

light_ganski [1] Lycanfire
NJAC [7] superbowl9, SoraAdvent, Hebee Inc, light_ganski, Sir Bastion, kyndy101, HighHopes
Hebee Inc [3] Raskolnikov, Vedith, NJAC

Not Voting [1] shaddowez

Votecount 2.003
Wow that was a fast day.

Vedith [6] HighHopes, superbowl9, Raskolnikov, Sir Bastion, kyndy101, Vedith

Not Voting [4] Lycanfire, Hebee Inc, shaddowez, ironstove

VCA is a great way to go, as we can clearly see here kyndy is on both wagons AND put both to L-1 and is therefore 1000% scum, shaddow's not voting on anything therefore he's scum, and Bastion's on both so there's the third. Wow it was that easy to nail down the scumteam.

~~~~

Not lycan

it says in the first post for today that both hebee and lycan have been prodded

My b

Na, I don't have a problem with your PR claim, it's actually your excuse that you flaked from the site during the entire night phase that seems stupid because you've been posting on this site in other games during all of the phase when day 2 started till night 2 ended... So you expect me to believe you were actively posting in other threads for 4 days while never bothering to check in on this one? If you checked in on D2 you would have seen verdeth was L-2 and was insta-scumread from high hopes... So you're implying that after N1, you never checked in until conveniently after N2 ...

I mean, it stupid really stupid... So stupid that you'd expect the people listening to believe it because who makes that kind of stuff up?!?!? Seriously???

Tbh I would vote lycan after this if the exact same thing didn't happen to Vedith 2 seconds ago and we weren't in mylo. Usually I automatically dismiss "well I was just playing bad" as an excuse when there's any evidence to the contrary.

Even without association everything's surface level plus the fluff she kept coming in with when actual things were happening.

That's a good point, also recently iirc her posts have been only around the times when stuff's happening. Also her posting frequency has plummeted since D1.

Wait, is JOAT strongman just a modifier or does it allow mafia 2 kills in one night?

Townslip

~~~~

My thoughts

Ok so im townreading bastion still and rask b/c the townslip (although before that wasn't all that sure why ppl were townreading them, anyone got reasons?).
That leaves lycan hebee stove and kyndy as possible scum.
Hebee is my scumread and everyone else was pretty null until the lycan claim, but gonna wait for confirmation one way or the other on that. Kyndy and stove were null for me and their play has been declining. Tbh its almost a coinflip for them atm, haven't gone thru interactions yet tho. Would lynch hebee>kyndy>stove>lycan today (kyndy over stove because she's been lurking).

[superbowl9]

Superbowl, you believe Lycan's PR claim and you're town reading him now?

No, I just don't think it's a good idea to lynch him today.

[superbowl9]

If we shouldn't lunch him, who do you propose?

I literally made a list of who I would lynch and in what order
"Would lynch hebee>kyndy>stove>lycan today (kyndy over stove because she's been lurking)."


On a no lynch
If lycan is bodyguard and protects shaddow then they either confirm lycan or narrow lynch pool by night killing someone else.
If lycan is vig and uses his shot we'd risk losing anyways so why not just lynch (if we flip a scum then lycan can shoot and confirm(would scum kill prevent him from shooting?)).
If lycan doesn't shoot then scum can just kill shaddow and we get nothing
If lycan's scum then scum just kills shaddow and we get nothing

So bascially whether we nl or not depends on which role lycan has.
Right?

[superbowl9]

Even if Lycan is bodyguard and scum have JOAT, worst thign that happens is we lose shaddow so no reason not to nl

[superbowl9]

sure does you scumread him. who else would you want to lynch if not for your scumreads? the magical scum faery?

shouldn't sora have been part of your case if your two scumreads are voting him? if you do, it looks like a defense., but that's only bad if the people you are pressing are town i couldn't help but notice the omission of something that would have fallen perfectly into your case.

"I'm way too conflicted"

"I need him to post more"

"My gut says believe the claim"

I think what might be throwing you off on the understanding here is this line:
"I still think we should lynch NJAC more than Vedith"
This does not mean that I think we should still lynch vedith, kinda more phrasing here. Basically Vedith was a null read at that point.

As for your other point that post was meant to be solely about vedith, not a reads list. Discussing anything else would have made the post even longer than it already was anyways.

highhopes wanted hebee dead. why did you say you were okay with a wagon on his scumread but then vote highhopes at the end of the post? isn't that a contradiction?

Bussing exists. Also I was scumreading both of them at the time.

either you think im a scumfucker and case me (which you aren't) or you work with me. discrediting my VCA and doing in its place, nothing, simply shows that you don't want to do shit for the town

So if I think you're town what you want me to do is agree with your case on me? Discrediting your case on me/showing how VCA is flawed so that other people don't follow flawed reasoning sounds like the better option to me.

I'm not sure if you're scum or not. Pretty much been null reading you the whole game, at this point just waiting to see what happens with your claim tonight. At this point it would not be pro-town to try to lynch you unless I was 100% sure you were scum because of your claim. You seem to realize this too:

you seem more concerned with my alignment than your ability to lynch scum today. if we were to lynch a partner of scum!lycan today, i would be given on a platter. that's not at all losing the game.

i would bus harder. you know it's a competition between you and ironstove as to who can look the most town right? you have one day to decide.

take notes superbowl, this guy isn't fucking around.

Oh great so now if I scumread stove I must be scum right
(why is there no "framed" smiley)

Naw fuck that new lynch order is genji>stove>kyndy>lycan

Case on stove is what bastion said plus no explanation omgus in 719, and having someone who just says fuck it and votes for no reason isnt someone I want in lylo.

[superbowl9]

@stove

Point 1: When NJAC says "Yep, I was going to give my reads after commenting on some recent posts. A bit of patience please." and then gives his reads, he's not saying that he's going to give an elaborate at a later post. I'll translate it for you: "Chill bro, I was just about to do this thing. *does thing*" Basically yet another semantic misunderstanding.

Point 2: Is this actually an argument? The point of mafia is that you have to use your judgement to tell whether or not other people are scum.

I'm not saying anything factual because I don't know what roles everyone has.

Point 3: 342 is when I started scumspecting hebee (and Highhopes). It wasn't a scumread; I wouldn't have said "Hebee is scum" at that point, more like "hmm maybe hebee is scum". Hence the questions, so that I could get clarification/more info on their posts. Tbh before that post I hadn't really been looking at the hydras, kinda just waiting for them to produce some content so I could evaluate. My next post about them was saying I wouldn't vote hebee at that time because they hadn't posted enough, but that I would vote them if they were the main wagon with not much time left (aka if there were no better options). Now my main scumreads at the time were NJAC and Vedith. We lynched NJAC D1 and Vedith claimed PR D1. So D2, who's on my scum list? High hopes and hebee. Since hebee still hadn't posted/answered my questions, and I don't want to go after someone who's not around to answer unless it's a lurker policy lynch, I didn't vote her and instead voted my other scumread.

That was my rationale, maybe it wasn't completely clear since both you and lycan have questioned it, but I wouldn't call any part of it sudden changes, besides the part when I started to look at/scumread the hydras.

724: Bastion cleared it up in 680, I didn't actually know which one it was before then nor was I around to tell rask.

[superbowl9]

People who keep saying 'oh i am gut reading this person as scum, or this post comes off as scummy, or i feel like scum would be making this post, or etc.. etc... etc.. rather than picking at people's actions like reads, consistency, or logic are generally sus to me as mafia.

I'm going to say I felt like you were feeling particularly bloodthirsty as mafia.

Besides the fact that you yourself rely on this type of gut reading (everyone does, you have to because of the nature of the game), as you said

I do value the evidence and facts

, I just also employ reads. 293 (do I believe vedith) is a perfect example of this, I use what's objectively true in the game to see if I can reach any conclusions. Same with 702, I analyze what we know for

fact

and see what we can do to verify a claim or narrow the lynch pool. I don't see what your case is here, you admit that I employ theory and logic in my posts, so what's the problem? Combining reads/gut feelings and logic/theory is how you play the game. I can't believe this is even an argument.

Once again, why did you never try to directly interact with heebee? How does someone go from being a null-leaning scum read to suddenly scum without ever interacting once with that person? That's awfully convenient IMO when your top two 'scum reads' happen to flip out as PRs... Bad luck for you I guess.

Did you read the game? 342 I literally start off with

@hebee

. How is that avoiding direct interaction? If anything it's hebee that was avoiding interaction. Between 342 and when they were replaced, they had a total of

1 Post. 1. Post.

And no, it wasn't directed at me. Lurking is anti-town. I was null scum on hebee. If a slight scumread starts acting anti-town, what do you think happens to that scumread?

Applying 0 pressure onto a player and going 'ok guys let's lynch him' once the two people you were pushing were town flips.. I didn't bother to mention your interactions with NJAC in much detail, but I don't like how you were pushing the lynch on him on D1.

Perfect. So when I apply pressure to my lynch candidates I'm scum, and when I don't apply pressure to my lynch candidates I'm scum. Also it's kind of hard to apply pressure to someone who has 1 post in the second half of the game and won't address you. Oh hey that's why lurking is anti-town

[superbowl9]

@ironstove pretty sure you're town here

Why

[superbowl9]

because they've not been reading the game (see JOAT topic that takes up most of their first paragraph)

That's about lycan tho. Are you confusing stove and lycan?

[superbowl9]

1) He claims this was scummy kind of action (being defensive) with Vedith early in the game. Or at least hinted that defensiveness in contexts is scummy.

Yes playing in a purely reactionary way (aka not participating unless someone attacks you) is scummy because it shows you don't care about the game or scumhunting, only about saving yourself. Do you think that's been the case with me D2 and D3?

2) His approach to lynching order doesn't match what he says.

Did you read the same post you took my lynch order from, where I justified the lynch order? That's not even my most recent lynch order... Are you guys even trying at this point?

I'm taking note that 3/4 of my POE scumteam have started scumreading me on the drop of a hat.

I would've needed a content post a lot better than that to make a dent in my scumread of the genji slot.
VOTE: genji

[superbowl9]

If there's nothing that basically confirms genji scum fmpov (I don't think rask is scum)

[superbowl9]

1) He claims this was scummy kind of action (being defensive) with Vedith early in the game. Or at least hinted that defensiveness in contexts is scummy.

Yes playing in a purely reactionary way (aka not participating unless someone attacks you) is scummy because it shows you don't care about the game or scumhunting, only about saving yourself. Do you think that's been the case with me D2 and D3?

2) His approach to lynching order doesn't match what he says.

Did you read the same post you took my lynch order from, where I justified the lynch order? That's not even my most recent lynch order... Are you guys even trying at this point?

I'm taking note that 3/4 of my POE scumteam have started scumreading me on the drop of a hat.

I would've needed a content post a lot better than that to make a dent in my scumread of the genji slot.
VOTE: genji

This is a reactionary post, about how being reactionary isn't town. Then votes me out of a reaction.
Can you do this, in anyway, that actually shows your attempts at scumhunting?

You have definitely showed nothing but survival kind of mindset since at least day 3, if not a bit at day 2.
Its a way different attitude than Day 1 is for sure.

No. The difference between me and NJAC is that NJAC scumread people for no reason other than the fact that they were scumreading him, whereas I have been scumreading you long before you started scumreading me. This is not to say that you can't start scumreading someone right after they start scumreading you, you just have to have a reason other than "I don't like that they're scumreading me".

If by "survival mindset" you mean more defensive, then yeah, I have been playing more defensive recently because people have started to make cases on me recently. Are you saying that as town in mylo I shouldn't try to keep myself alive?

[superbowl9]

No. The difference between me and NJAC is that NJAC scumread people for no reason other than the fact that they were scumreading him, whereas I have been scumreading you long before you started scumreading me. This is not to say that you can't start scumreading someone right after they start scumreading you, you just have to have a reason other than "I don't like that they're scumreading me".

If by "survival mindset" you mean more defensive, then yeah, I have been playing more defensive recently because people have started to make cases on me recently. Are you saying that as town in mylo I shouldn't try to keep myself alive?

Not getting lynched is one thing. Its entirely different when you seem bent on a lynch other than yourself without actually seeming like you are trying to find scum alternate to yourself.

superbowl, is genji the only person you are willing to lynch today? Who is in your scum team?

How many times have I said this guys
Scumteam is 3 of lycan/kyndy/stove/genji.
Lynch order is genji>stove>kyndy>lycan.

Super Bowl, I also want to know (referring to iron's 760 and 761

[superbowl9]

So thought experiment for those 5 players

Genji, Superbowl, Ironstove, Kyndy, Raskolnikov.

Pick the person you most feel is town out of the other 4 players

and look at the remaining 3

Do those 3 players work as a scumteam in your opinion?

Yep

[superbowl9]

WTF

THAT INTERACTION HAD ME DYING
Now you see what I have to deal with bastion

[superbowl9]

superbowl I love your name btw I can't resist saying aloud when I read it

Thanks I try

[superbowl9]

Main point of bastions is just that scum must be within each pool, though the conclusions from that aren't anything not already what I've narrowed down in associations though. Genji with kyndy, or genji with bowl or something really wacky. Bastion had a convoluted way of saying this pretty simple theory though and doesn't really push what HIS stance on who the scum is but okay I guess.

The latter points where he assumes lycan town and champions himself is pretty bullshit though, even if we could trust his align, assuming that also for lycan is really careless with the claim circumstances. Trying to ask us to only consider those within the 5 as the scumteam can be scum motivated but if he believes what he's saying it's just as valid, though I still wouldn't agree wrt lycan.

Though I've also noticed a tendency in games for scum to believe claims more readily (or go the extreme other way and never believe it) because they know it themselves to be true. I'm kind of sad because I was townreading him really strong off that day 2 play but I guess if lycan is PR it makes sense?

That post is pretty much all from bastion's pov. Honestly idk why people aren't liking it I found it to be a pretty good wagon analysis if you hadn't thought of it already while also telling us what bastion's thinking at the same time.

Pedit: Imo he should just get a warning unless it's happened before or lycan/someone else requests it.

[superbowl9]

783-795

[superbowl9]

So its clearly worked. we're back to talking about events prior to the fight.

I mean are any of you even going to consider to check Kyndy and Ironstove in iso?

Ahh no, too much drama there...Dont want to go there, things will get nasty


Or thinking about Lycan raising that ironstove unvoting at this point being very suspect?

Again ahh no a lot of drama there.

Pity

as has already been shown there were scum in both wagons, so to abandon your wagon as ironstove did but not actually change your mind on anything (Ironstove has repeated many times since unvoting that old soupbowl is still scum suspect numero uno) that is genuinely suspect.

Though I disagree with the notion that scum would push for a claim so hard, so that part of his case is meh.

but regardless Lycan calls out Ironstove and ironstove's reaction is to shout him down.

I've basically been feeling this way the whole time (not the part about the interaction w/ kyndy tho), his vote switching kind of reminds me of the hebi slot. Hence why I moved him up in my lynch order. I'll be pushing for him tomorrow if we get there.

[superbowl9]

I've basically been feeling this way the whole time (not the part about the interaction w/ kyndy tho), his vote switching kind of reminds me of the hebi slot. Hence why I moved him up in my lynch order.

I'll be pushing for him tomorrow if we get there

.

This isn't good either.

Why not

Okay I was willing to bluff here, but my softclaim's usefulness just expired. I'm a bodyguard, and I've already guessed scum have day talk, recruit, and joat. If we no lynch, I think it's almost certain that you will die. There won't be any PoE. Voting no lynch is the same as declaring intent on me at this point.

Okay I was waiting for this. Tbh I didn't know what role you were even tho bastion said you were crumbing it, I'm dense af when it comes to subtle things like that and didn't want to draw attention to it. Is the BP one shot? And is it 100% that the JOAT is only a modifier and can't be used in conjunction with the mafia kill? If the answers are yes and no (respectively), then I'd go for a no lynch, although it wouldn't matter other than giving us more time to discuss.

Not only was I worried about a joat, but scum could shoot someone besides you or myself. I didn't think a PoE kill like this would help us because it would just mean Rask would die, imo.

You mean shaddow?

This is a valid point; if you feel someone is scum, why not just vote them / build a case and vote?

No it's not, people can have multiple scumreads so unless you think people should vote all of their scumreads simultaneously this makes no sense.

#725 i thought this was bad because voting hebee after day 1 was perfectly fine... look at the njac wagon. not only did it get pushed over hebee, but hebee was on that with him. if hebee was a day 1 scumread of his how did that happen? and how does he know at this point that hebee is inactive? pt? if "not answering questions" is an answer it just proves that he doesn't want to scumhunt. placing a vote after day and repeating yourself is a normal thing to do when you press your reads. it's when you feel like doing it more than once in a day that you should consider other leads before you do that. imo justification to go after highhopes over hebee doesn't actually work.

Ok I don't think your logic makes sense here. First, what do you mean how did I know hebee was inactive? Take a look at their post count, at each of the times I posted. If that's too much work for you (I know you're not a fan) I'll give you a hint: They didn't post a lot. I only policy lynch active lurkers. You know why? Because lurkers that don't post (aka hebi)

get replaced

. It's stupid to slap a vote on someone for not posting, because they

have

to post within two days.

#759 prob shouldn't shit talk njac and act like his vote was any good when njac was obvtown and led to a lot of discussion, had the matter of his lynch buried until it was suddenly pushed through instead of hebee.

Come on I know you're smarter than this. Just because someone is town does not mean they did the right thing for town. I'm not even attacking NJAC in that post, just clarifying what the difference was between what I called him out for way earlier and how I was playing.

kyndy,

do you still want a superbowl lynch today? from your pov, you townread genji and he's counterclaimed me. shouldn't i be your lynch?

Lol this may be a super subtle jab at kyndy (pr0ps)

[superbowl9]

putting a new vote on someone at the start of day is absolutely fine. in #733 you say he's one of your scumreads. townies try to push their scumreads

Just stating your point again without any reasoning doesn't convince anyone that it's correct. Again, my logic is that if they don't post, they'll get replaced in two days, so what's the point of not waiting around a bit to hear them out?

[superbowl9]

Assumptions to be made at this point:
at most only 1 person on my wagon can be town, because I haven't been hammered by scum.

That means either:
A) 3 people are scum on my wagon (unlikely)
B) 2 are scum and 1 is town.

My thoughts right now are that superbowl and lycan are unaligned. Which is from their interactions alone. I might be wrong on this, since I haven't seen much interactions lately, but its a gut feeling I get from reading posts.

That leaves if I take out those two being a scum in this position:
Superbowl/Rask/???
Lycan/Rask/???

So, we should theoretically be voting to lynch Rask, but I think Lycan/Rask is also the match.

This is from your POV right? Cause this doesn't work if you're the scum.
Also you really don't seem like you're feeling any pressure to get yourself out of this lynch; this reads as "here's some WIFOM to play with for tomorrow".
Beating a dead horse at this point tho.

[superbowl9]

superbowl9: Oh I had to buddy you quick, I knew Vedith would get all prickly if I tried to be nice to him, but you my glorious soupbowl are a good townie to have in my corner...even if I am scum. solid reading except you had a big old blind spot where the genji/hebee slot sat and it blinded you so much. I think more then any other player you lost out the most from the day 2 fuck up, if day 2 had gone as normal and hebee had been lynched I think in day 3 you would have been a much stronger player. I think Raskol played that blind spot too well.

Yeah you got me . At one point I remember thinking "well what if bastion's scum?" and my response to myself was "Well then gg". I think I have a problem with scumreading lurkers. I just don't like them. I think your buddying saved you having to deal with me attacking rask as well, because at one point like half the game just started townreading them for basically nothing iirc and I was like "but bastion's doing it too, so there's gotta be a good reason".

I really think scum, I am 99% because of a technical issue.

vedith #549 scumreads superbowl based on ongoing game. fuck your sportsmanship give me the win

Is this ok to talk about now or is it still ongoing?

Tbh I am super surprised that everyone who hopped on the "scumread super train" was town. One more thing started by lycan that was ultimately a huge D3 distraction imo (no hard feelings tho).

Also

our reads were bad

Savage

[superbowl9]

On the nl thing I was so sure that genji was scum (and I'm sure others were too) that going for a nl wouldn't have even mattered. <-- Yet another thing bastion's buddy affected me on since I knew from POE rask/genji was scum, and I was townreading rask cause of the buddy.

[superbowl9]

But now that you've said that I won't try to mislynch you'll use this argument to try to tip my bias. Meta af. I'm on to your tricks.

[superbowl9]

Damn thinking back can we really say any of our prs played optimally
This game was free af for scum. /salt

[superbowl9]

1000 Pagetop! Can this count as 10 lillith?

Lycan, stop playing mafia, you don't even read the thread or what people post but then you come in swinging like you have all the best reads and know who is mafia. You're horrible.

Damn chill

[superbowl9]

Lmao at kyndy consistently spelling roleblocker as rollblocker

[superbowl9]

EBWOP: *Rolecop/rollcop