Open 690: Kill All Townies - Game Over

[Balki B]

Why is someone like Balki & someone like Flubber in different tiers, considering neither have posted?

VOTE: Kawso

[Balki B]

Post 19 looks like Scum Kawso to me. Kawso expresses an over-eagerness to appear townie by taking an obvious joke post too seriously and responding with a townie-looking question:

Why is someone like Balki & someone like Flubber in different tiers, considering neither have posted?

This question screams:

"I read your post in full, I analyzed it, and I've observed an inconsistency! I am town!"

Kawso appears to be looking for opportunities to blend in.

Scum!

A much more natural town response, I'd wager, is this one:

What the fuck is this shit

[Balki B]

with this post aren't you doing the same exact thing that you accused Kawso of doing?

also I'm seeing a lot of familiar avatars! this is going to be wonderful

also what's scary about my avatar, have you never seen rick and Morty?

Cats are still fucking better

I'm not accusing Kawso of being scum because he did something townie. I am accusing Kawso of being scum because he was so eager to look townie that he started doing his townie tap dance before the music started.

So, you tell me if I'm doing the same thing I accused Kawso of doing. If you think I am, explain why.

[Balki B]

Before we start with this, I want to make sure that I'm understanding you correctly. So you find his vote on SPD scummy because in an obvious RVS fashion, he voted them for a random reason in an attempt to make a joke.

Then, his apparent over-analysis on MM's reads, not sure if real or not but I doubt it, pushes you to believe that his analysis was forced and was an attempt to blend in.

That's how im interpreting everything, if you believe in interpreting something in a fashion that was not intended, please let me know because if I'm thinking incorrectly then this is going to be absolutely useless

I agree with the bolded statement above. I don't agree with the rest of it. My read is based solely on Kawso's response to the Mario avatar rankings.

[Balki B]

Incidentally, I see that I made a mistake here. When I said "Post 19," I meant "Post 22"

I don't think Kawso's random vote was alignment indicative.

[Balki B]

I like how you pretend you don't know what Echo is jokingly (I assume) accusing you of

VOTE: Balki B

If you wanna look town by making the first accusation, at least don't crumble as soon as someone half observes you making the move you're accusing someone else of making

How have I "

crumbled

." Did I stutter?

[Balki B]

@GameNBurger, for real, spell this out. Don't be cryptic.

(1) What is it that you think I accused Kawso of doing?
(2) How have I done the same thing?
(3) How is what I've done alignment indicative?

[Balki B]

I assume that you'll get around to explaining your vote eventually. Feel free to do that now.

[Balki B]

Do we need to torture you to get you to spit it out?

[Balki B]

TELL ME!

[Balki B]

This is going to be a long, boring, fluffy thread if we have to keep asking and asking for you to provide reasons. Why not just tell us?

You pointed us to a post. Now tell us why it's alignment indicative.

[Balki B]

Now tell us why it's alignment indicative.

[Balki B]

Okay. Thank you.

Still interested in GameNBurger's elaboration.

[Balki B]

But apparently you weren't perturbed by my vote until i said you were so \_O_/

~T

Nah, you don't purport to know what you're talking about, so that's okay.

GameNBurger seems like he really believes it.

[Balki B]

If you're gonna put words in my mouth at least tell me what it is I truly believe, clarity goes a long way in conversation

Sure. It's quite clear:

If you wanna look town by making the first accusation, at least don't crumble as soon as someone half observes you making the move you're accusing someone else of making

Here's a protip next time you get anything non townie, or even if you do get townie, Less is more.

You have suggested, with much more certainty than SPD, that I am scum.

Also, will you be playing the entire game as a condescending asshole? Is it some sort of role play?

[Balki B]

Let me answer your "how did i crumble" question, which is that you seem to love defending yourself rather than explaining what you mean, as you are doing now with these awfully leading questions. I'll take the bait though since its so shoddy:

Thank you.

(1) You're accusing Kawso of being a scum trying to go "look at me I'm town!" since he pointed out the fact that the username tier list had judged users that hadn't posted in the thread yet jokingly. You're reading this post as being

too

observant, and you identify this post as someone trying to fit in as a townie, or as you so lovingly put it, a "Townie Tap Dance."

Basically correct.

(2)Your post reads about as much as you can out of one singular joke response that it feels like a scum response trying to sound townie. Thats what echo is accusing you atleast of, and I

think

jokingly so. I personally think it wasnt the same as what you were accusing Kawso of, but your next post in response to echo doesnt seem to adress how you're not doing the same thing Kawso is, you simply ask Echo to explain it for himself. It smells a little like deflecting the accusation by trying to change what the accusation was in the response, given how irrelvant to Echo's claims your response is.

I agree with this, except for the last sentence.

(3)Its not, if you're referring to question 2, and if you're not, it helps to use direct subjects in questions, not pronouns. Nice bait by the way, I don't personally think Echo's claim holds water but I do think the fact that you seem to be in panic mode makes it worth the vote for pressure. I honestly cant say if you're 100% scum, but i think some pressure will help me decide in the end.

I agree with this, except for your suggestion that I am in "panic mode."

POST AUTHORSHIP: Here's a protip next time you get anything non townie, or even if you do get townie, Less is more.

Thank you again.

[Balki B]

Nah, I just happen to be a condescending asshole to everyone, or atleast I am when deciphering what you're trying to say takes so much time (with the exception of your post before you panic, could we get your posts to resemble that atleast?). Please be clear and direct when saying things, and I cant seriously remember the last time direct anger baiting (The calling me a condescending asshole bit so i'm clear) ever worked.

POST AUTHORSHIP Since you posted with a more thoughtful post since i started writing: Thats what i'm looking for as far as clarity goes, and to itterate more on why I think you were in panic mode: Shortfire posts, the lack of clarity, the primary use of ethos rather logos in arguments. I repeat this since i'm demanding a sense of quality from your posts, I might as well hold myself to the same standard.

I like you slightly better after this post. I disagree that I've been unclear or that I've appealed to ethics rather than logic. But it's pretty pointless to get into "Who Is More Clear" Contest. Thanks for your constructive criticism.

[Balki B]

Sorry I thought ethos meant emotion not ethics, is it pathos I'm looking for? I thought that had to do with credibility of the author?

It's all good, we're not Greek, so no need to use their backwards language.

Ethos

is appeal to ethics, and generally includes an attempt to persuade based on the credibility of the speaker.

Pathos

is appeal to emotion, usually pity, and also a lazy buzzword for "scummy" used by poor players of forum mafia.

[Balki B]

This can die. You don't nonchalantly point out possible PRs like that. Last person to point one out in a game I was in (Alisae) was right and got the Doctor dead.

Are you voting Kawso because you think he's bad town or because you think he's scum? Do you think scum would be so cavalier?

When Alisae pointed out a PR tell, was Alisae town or scum?

[Balki B]

This can die. You don't nonchalantly point out possible PRs like that. Last person to point one out in a game I was in (Alisae) was right and got the Doctor dead.

Are you voting Kawso because you think he's bad town or because you think he's scum? Do you think scum would be so cavalier?

When Alisae pointed out a PR tell, was Alisae town or scum?

Alisae just said "this guy is PR". He was Town, but was acting like hammered scum. For here, I feel Town would actually care about keeping PRs hidden.

Yeah, of course town must be more careful about PRs. But I'm not surprised Alisae was Town. Pretty odd that you use an example of something that bad town did as an example to prove your scum case.

I'm not surprised that Alisae was Town in your anecdote because it seems like the kind of thing that bad town would do as a mistake more frequently than bad scum would do as a mistake. It makes sense that Town is trying to sort PRs from VTs from scum, but you'd think bad scum would be more careful to avoid being explicit about that. I believe the only thing Kawso's PR comment revealed is that he is not being very careful.

UNVOTE: Kawso

[Balki B]

VOTE: Balki

this is scum

We really only have room for one tryhard.

[Balki B]

>Kawso does something scummy that hurts you directly
>"That something scum would do, no scum would be stupid enought to do that, so he must be town"
>Unvotes Kawso

I'm sorry but the whole "this is scummy, no scum would ever do that" is some serious WIFOM

That's not my argument. That's your strawman.

I am looking for things that are alignment indicative. I'm not looking for objectively poor play. Town do dumb things more often than scum because scum are carefully trying to blend in. For an example, look no further than the Alisae example, which was the only one cited for the: "this is scummy" postulate.

[Balki B]

One example does not change the circumstance

Pointing towards PR's is characterized by a mismanagment of goals in ones psyche: scum subconsously dont care if PR's are outed, especially in a game with two factional kills per night. A townie can make the mistake by not thinking the game thru at all, but that scenario is true to inexperienced scum players as well. So you have one scenarion in the possible townie column (Townie not thinking thru the game), and two in the scum column (Scum not thinking thru the game, Scum slipping accidentally, and if you want to stretch Scum trying to make it obvious to other faction who to off at night). This is why pointing to PRs is seen as scummy. Starting to invert these logic tables as scum trying to blend in is serious WIFOM.

GameNBurger, respectfully, you should stop talking about Greek expressions and "logic tables."

Just because there are two explanations for why scum might do something, and one explanation for why town might do something, does not mean each explanation is equally likely and so the observed behavior is 2/3 scum.

This game should not be played in short hand (e.g., "pointing to PRs is seen as scummy"). You have offered me lots of advice, thank you. My advice to you is that for any observed behavior, consider the scum motivation and narrative, consider the town motivation and narrative, and then consider which is more likely.

[Balki B]

VOTE: CommKnight

I sound like a broken record at this point, but Why the vote? I would expect a hydra would have atleast something well put together to say.

+1

The unexplained votes and lazy play is hurting us.

[Balki B]

@Almost50,

Your reasoning on your vote is "Sesq is voting there, so the vote is fine."

Here is the vote you are sheeping:

VOTE: Balki

this is scum

If you are town, how do you expect anyone to sort you with this lazy play? How can we expect to sort town from scum if you are going to behave in this fashion and avoid accountability for your vote by saying that you're doing it because someone else (without a reason) did it?

Gross.

[Balki B]

Accountability you say?? I'm VERY MUCH accountable for my votes and actions. I'm not "blaming it" on Sesq. I'm saying I trust her reads and methods. That is ME opting to WILLINGLY listen to her.

I've never played with her or you. What are her methods? Why do you trust them? Should

I

blindly follow her methods? Does she use the same methods when she is scum that she uses when she is town? Do you know her alignment?

Throw me a bone here. You are just a staring-contest emu to me.

[Balki B]

You win, Ali.

[Balki B]

"Blindly" is hardly the word I'd use. NO. Certainly not blindly.

But, come on, you had ONE VOTE on you. I opted to add another in order to move my RVS vote off someone who wasn't even responding. Have you ever heard or wagoning for pressure? Or wagoning for info/analysis? It's not like I put you on L-1 and asked you to claim!!

I don't recall playing with Scum!Sesq in MULTI-BALL. I was her Scum p once amd she parked her vote on me until she got me lynched, so NO.. I can't say she plays the same as Scum. And no, I fon't know her alignment either, but I already explained that EVEN IF she was Scum she's bound to be hunting for the OTHER scum team.

Sesq sorts people using her vote and doesn't like yo explain much herself. I am trying to sort her while I also try to sort you. Your response to my vote was weird to say the least. Maybe you are still new, or maybe you are the type of person who freaks out when they see more than one vote on them. I don't know, but it's something to keep at the back of my mind.

Hers though was expected. She has just moved her vote to me (in the post below the one I'm responding to), but that's still NAI because she would have done it either way. Hell, I suspect she would have done it of we were scum buddies.

A fine response. Thanks.

[Balki B]

@Kawso, what's the story with PR hunting? Can you come address the push on you? Why are you making PR reads in the main thread rather than in your scum thread?

[Balki B]

If you weren't so interested in your quips you'd probably be able to answer that last question to better effect than you think

I'd hereby open the question up to you. Why is Kawso PR hunting in the main thread rather than the scumchat thread?

[Balki B]

Yes, I know that scum can only chat at night. I don't mean to suggest that scum have the option of speaking to their partners in private during the day. Let me rephrase: why do you think Scum Kawso would declare a PR read openly in the main thread rather than wait until night to discuss with his scumbuddies?

[Balki B]

Once more, with feeling:

@Kawso, what's the story with PR hunting? Can you come address the push on you? Why are you making PR reads in the main thread rather than in your scum thread [at night]?

[Balki B]

You'd think me messing up and implying that someone might be scum during the day might be because I don't have a scumchat?

UNVOTE:

This is not what you're accused of. You are accused of trying to identify a PR. Some people think this makes you scum because scum are big jerks who are tyring to kill our PRs, and town would be quiet about our deepest secrets like who our PRs are.

So please explain, in as much detail as you can, why you made comments about who might be a PR for all to see.

[Balki B]

Why don't you think Balki vs GNB is TvT?

Why do you think it is? Remember, there's 2 scum factions here. Can just as easily be SvS.

Odd response from someone who said, without reasons, that my discussion with GNB is more than likely not TvT. You're the one who said that's an unlikely scenario. Mario asked you why you think it's unlikely. Do you have a reason for thinking that?

[Balki B]

I still have no idea why Balki and GNB are being scum read instead of ignored

I don't think Balki and GNB are generally being scum read. It's a small minority who have said that. Why would you say we are being scum read so generally? Who is scum reading Balki and GNB? What are their reasons? Do those reasons look sincere?

And why should I be ignored? I am a town treasure.

[Balki B]

Liking Ali. Agreeing on CommKnight.

VOTE: CommKnight

[Balki B]

For chapter 6 of my forthcoming mafia textbook:

"What we see above is an excellent example of Scum CommKnight not acting with the indignation of the wrongly accused. In 263 he laughs it off. Then "seriously though," he asserts something about his meta. Then in 264 he acts arrogant while suggesting that he's just unreadable cause he's just so good. Then at 267 he starts super sarcastic.

No indignation.

Laugh it off. "Seriously though." Arrogance. Sarcasm.

The dance of the scumlord."

[Balki B]

[Balki B]

You'd think me messing up and implying that someone might be scum during the day might be because I don't have a scumchat?

UNVOTE:

This is not what you're accused of. You are accused of trying to identify a PR. Some people think this makes you scum because scum are big jerks who are tyring to kill our PRs, and town would be quiet about our deepest secrets like who our PRs are.

So please explain, in as much detail as you can, why you made comments about who might be a PR for all to see.

[Balki B]

@Kawso, still there? Will you ever explain this?

[Balki B]

The PR comment was admittedly a result of me rushing to get a post in & provide worthwhile content. I said it, as I wasn't sure of your alignment, and thus wanted people to stop fully scumreading you. Looking back, I'd have worded it differently as to not imply you may be a PR.


I'm pretty new, but would i be so obvious as to mark myself like that as scum?

I agree with you, and this was the answer I wanted. I think the PR thing was obviously careless.

I think it's a careless move that Town Kawso makes more than Scum Kawso.

[Balki B]

We got him! We got him!

[Balki B]

Nah, CommKnight is scum.

[Balki B]

Plus you're now outed to the OTHER scum faction, so they'll likely pick you off as well.

You are so scum. You did not think through this one before you posted it.

[Balki B]

Also consider this... if I were scum, why would Ali CC? The other scum team would have to SHOOT me with no CC's.

So there's no benefit for town!Ali to CC me as they just get themselves killed in a crossfire.

Just saying.

Ali CCed you because you were trying a last-ditch effort to wriggle out of a correct lynch.

[Balki B]

Because if I'm dying. I'm calling a spade a fucking spade. Yet we have people still blindly following her *Cough* Balki *Cough*

I'm not blind. I explained why you're scum too. My explanation has even been called "beautiful."

#towntreasure

[Balki B]

Too bad its stupid since mafia have doctors

Le3t me know when you do install a brain!!

Cop = Can only detect Mafia. That means Werewolves do not care the least about him. So, the MAFIA will shoot one of the two claimed Cops. If they flip Cop, the other gets lynched. If they shoot the wrong one (on the off chance a VT is gambitting) then the real Cop will give us a result (whether it's a guilty or an inno).

FWIW, If I was a WW Dpctor I would protect whom I believed to be the Cop of the two. For real. It would be good for my faction to keep the Cop alive to catch Mafia, while we shot down Townies. But that's just me (and I often play weird as ANY alignment).

Staring-contest emu coming in low and fast with a flyby of knowledge. Good stuff.

[Balki B]

FWIW, If I was a WW Dpctor I would protect whom I believed to be the Cop of the two. For real. It would be good for my faction to keep the Cop alive to catch Mafia, while we shot down Townies. But that's just me (and I often play weird as ANY alignment).

This is what I'd do as well and what I'm relying on to save me into D2.

Also WW would not CC a cop... so that means Ali is more than likely Mafia of the two factions.

Okay, friend, we'll lynch Siblings if you flip Cop. Happy? Now step up their on those gallows with cheer and gusto!

[Balki B]

Okay, okay, okay. I got excited. No rush. I'll consider setup more and various possibilities.

UNVOTE: Comm

[Balki B]

Honestly this makes sense. I mean I just assume people played forum mafia elsewhere and have developed good strategies by now. But I forget there's people that this might be their 5th game (or less).

Perhaps you assumed I know what I'm doing because I identified your scumlord dance on Day 1?

Also, stop trying to discredit me. I know what I'm doing plenty. I'm just not in a rush.

[Balki B]

@Ali, I knew what you were doing! (even though I'm a dumb noob).

@Game, explain why scum Doggo does that. And then explain why scum Doggo retracts.

@Town, the moment Comm claimed Cop, his (lowish) odds of being Town went down a lot. Now we can be pretty sure that he's one of the 6 scumslots or Cop. 1/7 Town. If he's Cop, it would be bad to lose Cop, but not such a big deal to lose outed Cop. Given the groundswell of vigor behind the Comm wagon, And his general flailing, I think that a scum-aligned survivalist/PR fishing motivation is very likely.

[Balki B]

I've spent a bit of time considering the setup. I'm still not sure it makes sense to keep CommKnight alive. I'd like to discuss it.

I think we can be pretty certain that CommKnight is Scum or Cop. If he is Scum, he was about to be lynched, so why not claim Cop? Nothing to lose; only upside. If he is Cop, his explanation about changing his play and intentionally drawing some heat as Cop makes sense too. I'm not sure where I put the probabilities on each of these, but I think that Scum CommKnight would fake claim there. Seems like a strategy with little downside. So CommKnight is 1/7 roles, 6 of which are Scum, 1 of which is Town.

We don't lynch him if keeping him alive gives us information that will determine his alignment anyway. And this might be the case. By keeping him alive, he's going to have to give us scan results every day. If one of his scan results ever turns out wrong, we lynch him at that point cause he's obviously scum.

But how likely is it to ever happen that one of his lynch results flips wrong? If CommKnight is a Wolf, he can provide results on his partners. That's safe. There are only two players in the game who he could possibly provide an incorrect scan on. Pretty good odds of him never implicating himself. If he is Mafia (likely cause he wanted to out Cop), his scan results will never be wrong.

Another way that keeping him around gives us information is that, if he is scum, he might be killed by the other faction. But if he is a Wolf, he will be protected by Wolf Doc and can say, "Welp, I guess Wolf Doc must have wanted to keep me alive." If he is Mafia (most likely cause he wants to out Cop), nobody is actually going to want to kill him, and he can say "Welp, I guess Mafia thought Wolf Doc probably wanted to keep me alive."

I don't think that Scum CommKnight is going to be killed any time soon.

There is really one reason I can think of that would lead us to believe we should not lynch CommKnight. That reason would be that the real Cop, right now, has a clear dominant strategy of CCing CommKnight's claim and has not done so. Let's consider that. If Real Cop CCs, he has a decent chance of surviving as long as Wolf Doc and Town Doc survive. But that is not guaranteed. It's true that Wolves like Cop because Cop helps find Mafia. But also Cop gives Town a Town Clear, which is very anti-Wolf. So I don't think it's necessarily true that Wolves want to keep Cop alive. Doc would probably stay on Cop as long as Doc is alive. But with 3 NKs, there is about to be a lot of bloodshed. Cop might want to stay hidden for a bit longer, even with the CommKnight claim.

I don't know...

I'd like to hear a discussion about this. I'd like to hear something more than "Ugh, read the setup, it's obvious we don't lynch CommKnight."

[Balki B]

Then look at my wagon before I outed. Make a case. It's not all town, that's for damn sure.

I hate this comment from CommKnight.

@CommKnight, you yourself said that you were perfectly trying to draw fire before you outed, right? So you think it is alignment indicative for folks to be on your wagon before you claimed? That does not make sense. Please explain.

[Balki B]

@Balki, your entire wall there... what the fuck is that? HAVE YOU EVEN READ THE SET-UP? There is no town doc. Only Cop, Seer and Vig.

As to your last post there. Really? It's a mislynch, of course they'll be on it. They can't afford to avoid a scummy person and it flip scum without them on it, it only deters night kills. Not them being on the wagon to mislynch it.

So be a dick to me and maybe I'll shut up.

Lack of a Town Doc just makes the case for lynching you more compelling. Wolf Doc is not necessarily going to protect Town Cop, which means a CC here for real Cop is very risky.

As to your second paragraph, I have no idea what you're talking about? To what "last point" are you responding?

What I'm saying is that it's not clear whether Real Cop should CC or not.

If you think it's super obvious that Real Cop should CC, please 'splain so all us five year olds can understand.

You just might have a five year old on your team.

[Balki B]

What

This is like standard procedure

Its rare that town wronglynches without some pushing from scum

It happens but It doesnt mean that wagons are the best place to start looking

Comm is town

This post does not make sense. What are you trying to say?

[Balki B]

People are testy about this subject. You've got a brilliant "rising star" town treasure here. If everything is so obvious, feed me with the obvious knowledge.

[Balki B]

@Balki, your entire wall there... what the fuck is that? HAVE YOU EVEN READ THE SET-UP? There is no town doc. Only Cop, Seer and Vig.

As to your last post there. Really? It's a mislynch, of course they'll be on it. They can't afford to avoid a scummy person and it flip scum without them on it, it only deters night kills. Not them being on the wagon to mislynch it.

Okay, so your argument is that you were so scummy that "of course scum will be on it"? How about my counter: "You were so scummy that of course town would be on it"?

Best you can do here is to say that being on your wagon is NAI. If it's NAI --

why are we looking on your wagon for scum

?

Please don't curse at me and tell me to shut up. If you're town, put in the effort to make yourself understood, even to people who are beneath you.

[Balki B]

And the cop would have every incentive to do so given that the wolves will doctor you forever if you come out

In fact now that I think about it thats a bit broken balancing wise if both cop and seer just claim at the beginning and both mobs will simply protect the opposiing IDing role

I mean essentially Comm is gonna make it to end game now as long as the mob doesnt mannage to pop the wolf doctor

I think this is wrong. Wolves won't necessarily protect Cop. Cop is possibly good for them cause he finds Mafia, but bad for them in that he gives town a clear. Same things for Seer and Mafia. Why do Wolves protect Cop rather than protecting their own? Protecting their own is much more important.

[Balki B]

Okay i figured out the broken chain in your thinking, I see why you're confused now

Cop just sees whether a person is mafian or not, seer just sees (heh) whether someone is wolf or not

Without clears from both no town is ever cleared by a cop read alone

So yeah it literally beneficial to keep him alive with no downsides.

Hey,

thanks so much for figuring out the broken chain in my thinking

. I knew that, and yet I am thinking these juvenile-ridiculous-shut-the-fuck-up thoughts anyway. So I didn't miss a premise. I know the rules, and I actually think this.

I have a gift for you, which is that I've figured out the broken chain in your thinking:

"So yeah it literally beneficial to keep him alive with no downsides."

This is absurd. Here are two downsides. (1) Wolf Doc may protect one person. Using Wolf Doc on Cop means Wolf Doc can't protect a Wolf from Vig and Mafia Kills. Wouldn't you call that a downside? (2) Wolves are playing against the town too. It is so much easier as town to lynch if we have a Town Clear to rely on instead of a free-for-all with 6 scum manipulating us away. This is a second clear downside to Wolves dedicating their Doc, day-after-day, to saving Town's clear.

[Balki B]

Balki, please don't test my patience. If the Cop can only catch Mafia, how does he give "Town clears"? If a Cop checks a Werewolf he will get "Not Mafia" which is the same as him checking a VT, the Vig, or even the Mafia GodFather themselves!!

Because Cop himself is a Town Clear. Stop assuming I can't read. I know the rules.

[Balki B]

I'll choose who we lynch soon. I haven't decided yet. But I want to choose.

[Balki B]

Okay, making my way through a bunch of ISOs and trying to develop some reads.

I have soft town reads on EchoVision, Flubbernugget, and Siblings Pet Doggo. I like Why Mafia’s post at 1021.

Trying to decide whether to vote for Delta, Sesq, or Tenshii.

Here is my thinking on those three:

Delta

Not much to see from Delta. I kind of liked post 117, providing a short but reasonable defense of our town treasure. I certainly don’t like the speed of the wagon (multi-ball or not), and I’d rather push a wagon myself because then I know it’s coming from town.

Sesq

Sesq has done the bare minimum, flinging votes around with no explanations and no content. She has made no effort to explain her reasoning, which makes it very difficult to read her and helps scum hide because it normalizes opacity. Stop normalizing opacity! Somebody said that this is just how Sesq plays (perhaps our staring contest emu said that?). If that’s true, it just sucks.

Tenshii

As for Tenshii, I did not like his repeated delegitimizing the Siblings case on Comm by saying “it’s a meta case.” It wasn’t solely “a meta case,” and the fact that Siblings had some experience with Comm in the past to use as a frame of reference only helped the weight of the case. Tenshii repeated that it’s just a meta case in 332 and 335 in a way to cut off conversation and discourage anyone from thinking carefully about the case and Comm’s alignment. I don’t see a town-driven reason to be so dismissive.

Tenshii also shows some effort to blend in with posts like 103 and 993. Tenshii hasn’t really taken any stands or pushed the thread in any particular direction. He is reactive. And he is eager to lynch Delta, even after first voting simply “for the sake of putting 4 consecutive votes on him” at 502. Just the definition of reactive and non-skeptical play.

VOTE: Tenshii

[Balki B]

Balki I'm sorry to break this to you but you're not deciding our lynch.

Please sheep me on this vote, and forever more.

[Balki B]

Balki I'm sorry to break this to you but you're not deciding our lynch.

Rather than telling me I don't get to decide, why not read what I have to say, and tell me where I'm wrong, and where I'm right?

[Balki B]

Balki I'm sorry to break this to you but you're not deciding our lynch.

Rather than telling me I don't get to decide, why not read what I have to say, and tell me where I'm wrong, and where I'm right?

I'll do that with your case if you do that with my Delta case.

Okay, which post(s) do you want me to focus on? Won't get to this until tomorrow, but I'll share my thoughts then.

[Balki B]

I hope everyone say my post 1030. I decided that we're all lynching Tenshii today. Please hop on promptly.

[Balki B]

Here is a link to 1030 that works (hopefully).

[Balki B]

Who are you and why the fuck are you telling me who to vote

~woof woof

I am your Town Treasure. You need only obey me if you are town. If you are otherwise aligned, please disregard.

[Balki B]

@balki
delta is scum because;
firstly, viewtopic.php?p=9274283#p9274283

Your "case" here made two points. You said that this comment from Delta:

Can you two stop this, separate arguments is anti-town, all I see is 2 fuckwits arguing over a point made several pages ago and escalating it so which ever of you is scum can use it as material for your wagon later.

was scummy because Delta didn't try to solve who is town or scum. I don't buy that. I think Delta's comment looks a lot like a sincere attempt to deescalate a skirmish between me and GameNBurger that was mostly about nothing important. I can understand why town might do that. Another way of saying: "you guys are talking about stuff that is NAI -- get back to scumhunting." Seems consistent with town to me.

Your second point was that Delta's vote on you did not reflect "genuine evaluation." Delta's "case" on you was mostly to quote a bunch of joke posts you made and then say that you were filling the thread with content-less fluff. I mean...not a great case. But it doesn't stand out to me in it's weakness. It doesn't seem so contrived as to be insincere. Especially with the videos and jokes that you've posted, and the amount of your activity, I think you stand out a bit as providing more filler than substance.

I'm not convinced. I'm still Null on Delta. And I'm starting to lean Scum on Mario.

[Balki B]

@balki
delta is scum because;
firstly, viewtopic.php?p=9274283#p9274283

Your "case" here made two points. You said that this comment from Delta:

C

an you two stop this, separate arguments is anti-town, all I see is 2 fuckwits arguing over a point made several pages ago and escalating it so which ever of you is scum can use it as material for your wagon later.

was scummy because Delta didn't try to solve who is town or scum. I don't buy that. I think Delta's comment looks a lot like a sincere attempt to deescalate a skirmish between me and GameNBurger that was mostly about nothing important.

I can understand why town might do that. Another way of saying: "you guys are talking about stuff that is NAI -- get back to scumhunting."

Seems consistent with town to me.

Your second point was that Delta's vote on you did not reflect "genuine evaluation." Delta's "case" on you was mostly to quote a bunch of joke posts you made and then say that you were filling the thread with content-less fluff. I mean...not a great case. But it doesn't stand out to me in it's weakness. It doesn't seem so contrived as to be insincere. Especially with the videos and jokes that you've posted, and the amount of your activity, I think you stand out a bit as providing more filler than substance.

I'm not convinced. I'm still Null on Delta. And I'm starting to lean Scum on Mario.

I'm not sure how these bolded parts can possibly exist in your head at the same time logically speaking

Also ugh im starting to remember how much of a pain subs are in terms of having to reread a slot

Yeah -- fair point. I must have kind of zoned out and glazed over the rest after "you two fuckwits." Seemed like a classic deescalation up til there.

So, more like he was just throwing shade on both of us. Hmmm...

[Balki B]

Back no Null on Mario. But I'm not hammering Delta. Still pretty Null.

I want Tenshii. And I get to decide such things.

[Balki B]

VOTE: Balki B

Man next time commit to bussing your scummate would you? You really had me convinced until you backed up into stupid shit just to try and wagon on someone who wasnt The Godfather

So I'm excited to hear those cop reads comm

Simple as that, huh? Thanks for the helpful lesson.

Is your confident vote based on the mere fact I was not on the Delta wagon? Based on a defense I provided for Delta? Based on another case I made that you found insincere? Is there more to it than you're letting on?

I'm just trying to learn where I went wrong.

[Balki B]

So you find Balki to be scum because association with Delta? or are there other reasons? if so what are they?

I'm convinced he's faltering as new scum. I don't have much other explanation for why he backs out of the delta lynch, insists to be "deciding vote" whatever he means by that, gets on the sort of counter wagon in order to delay l-1(my thought there not his, want to be clear I'm not putting words into his mouth there), buddies incessently, and wanted to give a go at just lynching the confirmed cop (?!?!?!?)

I thought it was maybe new town but from a scum perspective his actions begin to make more sense. I get we all make mistakes but his are... particularly odd

But they make sense if he's scum

Atleast that's how I see it anyways

Before flip none of his late moves make sense

That and even if he's town I don't like his type of dumb moves

Like doggo made a dumb move but atleast it was a calculated dumb move

Balki is just unpredictable if he really is town (shoot even if he's wolf nothing he does really makes sense)

And his type of dumb moves always
Always
Make it to lylo situations

So there are those reasons as well, definitely not as good reasons but I'd be lying if I didn't say my thought process

Thanks. I'll comment on this post tomorrow. I'd like to see a bit more discussion before I do.

[Balki B]

If you are Town, insist that people slow down my runaway wagon so that I might have a chance to respond to it. Also, insist that people express reasons for voting for me. You're making it too easy for scum to hide.

There has been no good reason expressed to vote for me yet. The only thought at all worthwhile is that I was 1 of 8 people not on the Day 1 godfather lynch. I was on Tenshii instead. But not one person has gone back to look at my reasons for my votes and evaluated their sincerity. Not one.

I'll have a chance to respond to this push this afternoon. But in the mean time, I shouldn't be the only one demanding that people express clear reasons for voting me other than the completely vapid "I'll put the wagon back up to 5."

[Balki B]

I see the motivation behind it. I really don't want to see our Seer outed, though.

The Seer doesn't have to out.

We'll play under the assumption that the Seer will only out if he finds a guilty. Therefore the Seer not outting is an inno check.

I think this plan is Godly. And I volunteer to be checked tonight. Check me tonight. I wasn't on the Godfather wagon so I'm SUPER suspicious, and I am currently the most popular suspicion. So please check me.

I like the plan because it allows us to report seer reads without him coming forward. If I live through the night, and the seer does not come forward, I'm clear. If I die, I was quite likely to be mislynched today anyway.

Godly.

And I like Tenshii better for coming forward with this plan.

I'm still going to respond to the wagon on me today. But I want to take me time and do it right, so look for that in about 3 hours or so when I'm off my phone and in front of a computer.

[Balki B]

What is the rationale for Cop/Seer to check Sesq and not me? I am

MOST SUSPICIOUS

! I have the biggest wagon.

[Balki B]

Also you don't have a Chikorita avatar so I want to lynch you more than half of the other players in the game automatically.

That's super funny and all, but let's play mafia.

[Balki B]

The optimal play for the most suspicious player is to lynch them. Investigatives can't check you if you're dead.

Do you think I'm the most suspicious person?

[Balki B]

What is the rationale for Cop/Seer to check Sesq and not me? I am

MOST SUSPICIOUS

! I have the biggest wagon.

Because we're lynching you today most likely

Why would you treat this as so inevitable. We're less than 24 hours into the day, and I haven't even responded to the only thing that one could call a "case" against me.

Don't you have like, questions for me to answer?

Is nobody curious about my response?

You guys think this is that easy?

[Balki B]

Okay, Mario, I haven't read your case yet. I'll add it to my list, and Ill respond this afternoon.

[Balki B]

But please don't treat the lynch as inevitable so early. We need a day with robust discussion, and with people making choices to join or leave each wagon for reasons about alignments, not because one or another wagon is inevitable, or because you want the wagon to be at an arbitrary number like "5." Every time you guys suggest that my lynch is inevitable, you shut down discussion further. It's very poor play. Knock it off.

[Balki B]

balki's volunteering feels like wanting to look town

Right. But it also has consequences.

And also --

I do want to look town

. Do you think my wanting to look town, with 5 lynch votes on me, is alignment indicative?

Call my bluff. Scan me.

[Balki B]

VOTE: Sesq

Obv scum.

GIVE A REASON OR DIE!

We cannot afford any more of this naked vote nonesense. If that's all we're going to get, then our entire analysis for lynching is the same rudimentary analysis that has given me 5 votes: "who is on what wagon"?

We need more than that. We need people to defend their votes with reasons, so that we can evaluate the sincerity of those reasons. It is crazy how many times that has had to be explained in this game. Like -- you guys all suck at mafia. You're terrible. Give reasons, damn it.

[Balki B]

Or we can play FOLLOW THE COP.

I agree with Tenshii's plan. At first I didn't until he explained where the Seer doesn't actually out unless they get a guilty.

Balki, you're right, you're the scummiest person, we lynch you and then we CHECK the second most scummiest person (if they are the Seer, then they cross-check MariaF).

I personally think we should check Echo tonight as I do want to find the MAFIA (and any wolves) who didn't vote the Godfather yesterday.

Also Chiko's are taking over and Balki didn't change. He therefore is admitting to being a sock-puppet scummy.

So the plan to restate it: Lynch Balki, check Echo, if Echo is Seer, he checks MariaF.

CommKnight, you seem to have a high opinion of yourself. Is it your unsupported assertions or your brazen laziness?

Earlier, you were acting scummy, and you used your PR as an excuse. You suggested that you suck because you're PR and so you are carefully cultivating an image of someone who is scummy. What is your excuse now?

I'm not saying you're scum. I'm pretty sure you'd be CCed by now if you were not really the cop, but I am saying that you're playing poorly. Stop it. We need you to play well.

I plan to debunk cases on me this afternoon. Please provide your case -- lay out your reasons for saying I am scummy -- so that I can respond.

[Balki B]

@MariaR and Siblings --

Whether you like Tenshii's plan or not, do you think it's the type of thing proposed by scum? I don't.

[Balki B]

balki stop being so "le rational xd"

that isnt how mafia works smh

^ My TR on Sesq is well placed.

Kinda feeling like this mafia community just sucks. I felt like people were much more reasonable and intelligent in the Newbie game I played.

[Balki B]

Although, I agree that I have no idea why Sesq is being townread- I can't see it and if Balki flips town I'll be looking there
We need to come to a consensus. I could go with Echo. He's probably town. But I could do without people scumreading him anyway.

Don't you want to see my defense before you move the wagon off of me?

Wait for my defense! It's going to be good.

[Balki B]

how arrogant do you have to be to make a post like this

I'm

very

arrogant. You won't hurt my feelings by saying so.

I also expect a lot, and it advances my win condition to get my team to play better. So I will call you out if you are playing poorly, and I will insist that you play better.

meta won't bend to you, you will bend to meta

suck it up or leave the site

I may leave, but first I'm going to point out where folks have substituted bald assertions or adjectives like "dumb" in place of analysis, and see if I can encourage people to try harder.

sorry if i sound mean but i dont like it when newbies come in and start telling people who are experienced with mafia how to play mafia

You don't "sound mean"; just complacent.

[Balki B]

Oh my fucking god is anything I'm going to say just going to be discredited because of everyone's shitty read on me?

I don't understand how you can't see the motivation behind the plan, it's as clear as day.

Cop and Seer will check a scummy target. The scummy target will become confirmed inno. This will force the scum to kill the confirmed inno.

then in order for them to be cleared seer has to out himself and werewolf has an easy Nightkill...

either you didn't think your plan out or you low key want seer outed

@Echo, I don't think you're correct on this.

Cop and Seer choose to scan Balki. If Balki is killed, fine. You've just directed the kill on someone that folks found scummy, and you won't waste a mislynch on that person. If Seer gets a guilty scan on Balki -- great! Seer can come forward with it, and 1/2 the remaining wolves are dead. If the scan comes out clean, Seer says nothing, Cop says nothing, and we know our town treasure is a clear town treasure.

This doesn't make it any more likely that Seer has to out. Seer would out with a guilty anyway. All this does is allow Seer to confirm people innocent without coming forward.

[Balki B]

who are you to say

you're about to get lynched

you're playing the worst clearly

mafia isnt just a game of logic, it's a game of emotion and using interrogative techniques to try to get people to slip up

if you think that pure rationality will get you to the end you are very mistaken

(playing in such a way also implies that you are able to be 100% rational which is not always the case)

I have never said that "pure rationality will get me to the end." I don't know what you mean by "pure rationality."

Also, it's not my win condition to "get to the end." My win condition is to catch scum. I'm happy to be lynched, if it means we can figure out, in the process, who is not really looking for scum. But we can't figure that out if we don't demand that Town list their thought-process and reasons for lynching me. If town does not list their reasons, then scum can hide by not listing their reasons and just following the crowd.

I'm not playing a game based on "pure rationality," whatever that is. I just want people to explain themselves. Take the time to make their reasons understood, so that we can evaluate them for their sincerity.

[Balki B]

you're demonstrating that you do not understand the motivation by not providing reasoning for your votes

thats enough for me

Hmmmm...I don't need to demonstrate it. I'll just say it.

I do not understand the motivation for not providing reasoning for your votes.

I think that's a pretty bad idea. Do you want to tell me your top secret strategy, or lynch me for not understanding your super-advanced tactics?

[Balki B]

Okay I really don't see this much defensiveness coming from a v townie and process of elimination leads me to find your sock puppet scum

VOTE: Balki

Really? I have a wagon of, what...6 or 7...with less than 24 hours of the day gone by. You don't think a townie would be defensive in that circumstance? Why not?

Any other reasons for your vote? Take me through the process of elimination. Who have you eliminated?

[Balki B]

Response to GameNBurger's Reasons for Voting Balki

GameNBurger started things off right after the Day 2 start at 1149. I think that initiating a wagon like this is generally townie. But note the lack of questioning and the professed confidence. The sole reason GameNBurger cites is "you backed up into stupid shit just to try and wagon on someone who wasnt The Godfather."

GameNBurger does not suggest that he has checked my reasoning for my Day 1 vote. He doesn't link to it, quote it, critique it, or acknowledge it. He just says it was "stupid shit."

To me, this looks like GameNBurger trying purposefully to push a wagon without engaging with the reasons. This is more of a Trumpesq marketing campaign than a search for truth. GameNBurger doesn't want to question me about my Day 1 vote, or engage with it critically, and he doesn't want anyone to go back and look at it, he just wants everyone to think it was "stupid shit." (here is my reasoning for my Day 1 vote, in case you're curious)

Then, after my urging, GameNBurger posts 1155 with a few more reasons. Here, GameNBurger writes more than 200 words, but most are just derogatory assertions like "dumb," "faltering," "dumb moves," "none of his late moves make sense," and "unpredictable."

GameNBurger's reasoning boils down to four reasons:

(1) Balki "insists to be 'deciding vote' whatever he means by that," (2) Balki "gets on the sort of counter wagon in order to delay l-1," (3) Balki "buddies incessently," and (4) Balki "wanted to give a go at just lynching the confirmed cop (?!?!?!?)." I'll addres them in turn.

(1) My Suggestion That I Decide Who We Lynch Is Not Scum Indicative

Here, I suggest that I want to decide the lynch. Part of that is a bit tongue in cheek, I obviously know that nobody should sheep me. But generally the point I was trying to make was that I don't want to jump on Delta just because everyone else is jumping on Delta. I want to control my vote, because I know my vote is coming from a town place. I'm not going to hop on a wagon just because it's a wagon.

It is this desire to be independent that was one of the strongest forces keeping me off of the Delta wagon when it formed. It sprang up and grew fast, and I didn't want to merely follow other people because there are obviously people trying to mislead and misdirect here. I wanted to be my own man.

I think that is town indicative more than scum indicative. I was loud about my vote and my reasons. I wanted people to see that I was acting with a purpose. I did not want to hide by running like a lemming to the popular wagon. I have no interest in hiding.

(2) I Voted Tenshii For Clearly Stated Reasons, and Nobody Has Critiqued Them or Engaged With Them

GameNBurger assumes that I was insincere with my vote on Tenshii, which is possible from his perspective. But he simply assumes it based on the timing of the vote. If you are town, and you care about getting this lynch right, at least read my reasons for voting for Tenshii and share your thoughts on them.

When I made that vote, Delta was already at 8/17 votes with 5 people unvoted or on vanity wagons. So the chances that I was going to prevent the lynch of Delta were

extremely

slim. In that situation, if I were 1/2 mafia other than Delta, do you really think I'd start pushing an alternative wagon so conspicuously? Seems like a good way to lose. If I were mafia there, I'd probably think "welp, this guy Delta sucks, I might as well hammer him and take the town cred." Delta was beyond saving when I cast my Tenshii vote. That vote was not consistent with scum trying to save their partner.

(3) It Is Pretty Laughable to Say that "Balki Buddies Incessently"

I mean, what a ridiculous thing to say.
I called our fearless cop a "dick", and then I called him lazy, cocky, and wrong;
I called GameNBurger a condescending asshole;
I frequently speak in angry, italicized, bolded sarcasm;
I've explained, cogently, that Sesq sucks;
And then I told everyone here that they suck at mafia.

Like, I know that "you're buddying" is an easy buzzword that people like to fling around in place of thought, but it's pretty laughable to try to attach it to me here. Say what you will about me, I'm nobody's buddy. I'm just your treasure.

(4) My Questioning of CommKnight's Cop Claim Is Town Indicative, If Anything

So, as you'll all recall, CommKnight was the first runaway wagon, and then he claimed cop at a time when it looked like he was about to be lynched. Lots of folks eased off immediately, but I didn't. I asked a bunch of questions and challenged the conventional wisdom that the Wolves will simply protect Cop and that there is nothing to lose by leaving CommKnight alive.

So, at a very superficial level, you can call taht scummy. After all, Cop is important for town, and Balki suggested lynching the person who claimed cop, so that is bad! Could be scum.

But go back and read that sequence and think about how scum might react to it.

Scum are trying to hide

. Scum are afraid of being lynched. Scum are afraid of Cop. Do you think their reaction to that situation would be to challenge the cop, call him a dick, question a bunch of assumptions, and go against the grain in the face of numerous people telling me to shut up?

I am playing conspicuously and fearlessly. And one thing I hope you learn from my flip -- that's not scum. Scum will cower and follow the crowd when something like that happens, almost every time. If you read this again, and think about it critically, I think you'll see that you're drawing the wrong conclusion.

[Balki B]

Did I just get hammered?

How far away from the end am I? I don't really want to put in a bunch of effort if y'all just say "LOL" and don't read it. Does anyone care what I have to say?

[Balki B]

What's the vote count?

[Balki B]

Eh, I think I'm at 6.

Does anyone have a question for me? It feels like y'all should have questions for me.

[Balki B]

If not, I'm going to go through reasons expressed by others on my wagon, to the extent there are any.

[Balki B]

Second person to my wagon is Gamma Emerald. In typical Gamma Emerald form, he expresses his reasoning in a single line:

"How do I be towny" is what I get out of Balki B
VOTE: Balki B

Gamma Emerald has stated no other reasons for his vote. But he has hopped on to suggest that my lynch is inevitable:

What is the rationale for Cop/Seer to check Sesq and not me? I am

MOST SUSPICIOUS

! I have the biggest wagon.

Because we're lynching you today most likely

Can we just quicklynch Balki

I don't know if y'all are used to playing with Gamma Emerald, and this is just how he chooses to play as any alignment, but this is the kind of accountability dodging that makes Town's job more difficult. His purported reason for voting me lacks any susbstance or example. He basically said "Balki looks scummy." There is no way to engage with that, refute it, or challenge it in any way. It is devoid of reason.

But it makes it worse that Gamma keeps suggesting that "we should just lynch Balki." It's not like we're moving slowly here. The day just began and I'm at L-2. But by suggesting that my lynch is already inevitable and we should just get on with it, Gamma is encouraging other people to hop on and sheep this with no accountability at all. Seems pretty clear that he is more interested in the day ending without him or his partner on the gallows than in trying to get the lynch right or make sure people are voting Balki for good reasons.

This is super anti-town. I'm going to VOTE: Gamma Emerald. If someone has evidence that this is just how Gamma always plays as either alignment, I'd like to see it.

[Balki B]

Third person to my wagon was our fearless cop, CommKnight.

VOTE: Balki B - I still SR him and he's one of the ones on the counter-wagon.

He explained his reasoning here:

Your wagon is going up fast because...

1.) You're mafia, Werewolves want you dead as well.

2.) Tenshii is probably Werewolf, it's in my interest to keep both Werewolves alive today so the Doc is more inclined to protect me to find mafia for him before mafia kill both of them or the Seer outs them.

3.) With only two mafia left, your buddy is probably voting Tenshii right now.

4.) The "resistance" to your wagon is the people avoiding voting you to vote Tenshii for just as naked votes (which you don't ask for explanations on).

So nah, I'm good with killing you. I'll find your buddy tonight.

Not a whole lot I can say in my defense here. CommKnight simply assumes I am mafia because...why? Like, I see where you say "You're mafia," but I don't see the part where you explain why you think that is true.

Is it because I ruffled your feathers earlier? Do you think that's my scum strategy? Go ruffle Cop's feathers?

I can't respond if you're unwilling to make a case.

[Balki B]

There's no way I'm quoting that whole wall Jesus

But

The first glaring thing is that your response to me saying you buddy is dumb since you've been mean a lot of people

I know in my case you called me a condescending asshole then you went back and said " I like you better now"

Also you didn't want to lynch a cclaim cop you wanted to lynch AFTER he was basically confirmed and refused to see reason of otherwise even from almost50

That and this feels like the most forced wall of text I've ever seen

You even talk about things as acting town as being a reason you did things

Townies do shit that benefits the town

If you have to plan and think "geez what's my most town option" as a townie then you're doing it wrong
Way wrong
It's more likely that scum has to think that since they're not motivated by town win conditions

Wanting to act town is not a reason for you being town in a million years

I just noticed how in the blurb where you show you're totally not buddying you call the cop fearless

Like you can't even point out how you're not buddying without trying to buddy

So, you're saying that you feel kindness is alignment indicative, because people who are kind are trying to get people to avoid lynching them based on kindness.

And you think that I am likley scum because I have been employing this "kill-am with kindness" strategy in this game. Ha! You definitely haven't read my ISO.

[Balki B]

1) You wee off the Delta wagon making you likely mafia
2) As I said your response to the initial votes was "how do I be towny" which is a scummy response because it suggests scum wanting to know how to correct course
3) You've been extremely defensive today

I mean...what the fuck? I'm at L-1 less than 24 hours into the day. I'm about to be lynched for dumb reasons, and nobody is making anyone accountable.

Why is being defensive in these circumstances alignment indicative? In your experience, town don't defend themselves or demand people to state their reasons for lynching them?

[Balki B]

Wait why am I arguing with scum about why they're scum

Wow, you're that sure, are you?

Like, how sure are you? Seems like you're a super experienced bloke. Where does your certainty about my scum alignment rank among all your scumhunting triumphs of yore?

[Balki B]

Did I just get hammered?

How far away from the end am I? I don't really want to put in a bunch of effort if y'all just say "LOL" and don't read it. Does anyone care what I have to say?

Yeah this is fake as fuck.

I'd actually be voting this rn but Frog got pissed when i tried to stop his tenshii push.

~T

It is fake as fuck. Like I said Balki's fine too. But I think Balki and Tenshii are buds anyway.

VOTE: Balki

Ribbit Ribbit

Hard to argue with "that's fake as fuck." Um, no it's not.

I asked because I was sitting here writing a fucking novel, and when I clicked Submit, I saw 2 more Balki votes had gone up in the mean time, and it's like "why do I even bother? Nobody cares to hear what I have to say."

[Balki B]

Anyway, I'm stepping away for now. I've given y'all plenty to read. If you want to hammer me, I'll be quite happy to leave this game. Good luck.

[Balki B]

1) You wee off the Delta wagon making you likely mafia
2) As I said your response to the initial votes was "how do I be towny" which is a scummy response because it suggests scum wanting to know how to correct course
3) You've been extremely defensive today

I mean...what the fuck? I'm at L-1 less than 24 hours into the day. I'm about to be lynched for dumb reasons, and nobody is making anyone accountable.

Why is being defensive in these circumstances alignment indicative? In your experience, town don't defend themselves or demand people to state their reasons for lynching them?

You are focusing on defense rather than scumhunting

This comment above is the dumbest comment I have seen, of all the dumb comments I have seen. And I've seen a lot of dumb comments.

Is stupidity alignment indicative, for Gamma? Anyone know?

[Balki B]

You should at least try to scumhunt if you are town, help direct us after your lynch happens

Thanks friend. I just voted for you, and made a case on you. Please start there.

Understand

: wagons grow the fastest on townies. Both scum factions are down a member, and just want to see a lynch on anyone but their faction. That's four people with a major interest in lynching me fast, and in not having to describe their reasons.

[Balki B]

Town benefits from a nice long day, with lots of cases, shifting wagons, clear alternative choices, and actual analysis.

Scum want to get this done quick.

Bad town don't care, cuz LOLZ.

[Balki B]

yesterday was a fast wagon and we got scum

thats not solid logic

(1) One counterexample doesn't make a principle untrue.
(2) But D1 is not a good counterexample. D1 was not fast. It went more than a week. We had a first wagon on CommKnight. We had lots of cases and reactions. Several cases on Tenshii, and a successful wagon on Delta.

We're like 20 hours into today and I'm at L-1. Someone's about to hammer and say something like "Balki's just super scummy," and that will be our sorry Day 2. And everyone on the wagon right now -- you bear just as much blame as the person who hammers.

[Balki B]

I guess you're right. Super fast days where we lynch whomever the first person is who gets a vote and nobody asks any questions is the ticket!

[Balki B]

It's all good. I'm just a VT.

[Balki B]

I mean you have a cw of Tenshii for what should be even more ??? reasons to you today

I can't decipher what you're saying here. Would you please rephrase?

[Balki B]

You're complaining about your wagon being unexplained but it was the same for Tenshii

Here are the reasons I voted for Tenshii on Day 1.

Also, you seem to agree that my wagon popped up quickly and with little reasoning. Your defense for that is...other wagons have popped up quickly with little reasoning?

That's bad. We, as a town, have one main way to eliminate people. Reasoned lynches of people likely to flip scum. Let's use them wisely.

[Balki B]

I mean I was just leveling with you Balki but if you're gonna deflect then I won't even try

Deflect? I am responding directly and clearly.

Yes, you were leveling with me that my wagon is baseless and awfully fast. I agree.

What are you going to do about it?

[Balki B]

My favorite is when people call me scum for being defensive.

[Balki B]

My favorite is when people call me scum for being defensive.

Scum usually are tbh

How about wrongly accused, L-1, Town Treasures?

[Balki B]

That's bad. We, as a town, have one main way to eliminate people. Reasoned lynches of people likely to flip scum. Let's use them wisely.

I don't read people that insult people on their wagons as town, right now your most solid defense seems to be that "the wagon is stupid" and "the people on it are stupid"

It appears that you've carefully read my defense. Your paraphrase is spot on.

[Balki B]

That's bad. We, as a town, have one main way to eliminate people. Reasoned lynches of people likely to flip scum. Let's use them wisely.

I don't read people that insult people on their wagons as town, right now your most solid defense seems to be that "the wagon is stupid" and "the people on it are stupid"

It appears that you've carefully read my defense. Your paraphrase is spot on.

Yeah wasn't reading your fucking essay

feel free to give me a tl;dr though

* Refuses to read defense.

* Falsely paraphrases defense and tries to court hammer vote.

[Balki B]

If there's one point to take from all this it's that people would rather see you scumhunt rather than do a post by person takedown of why the voters on your wagon are wrong

You're always chiming in with helpful lessons learned for me. Thanks again.

The main thing that has happened today is people jumping on my wagon and giving vacuous reasons. So my scumhunt is pointing out the poor reasoning. I read Gamma as scum for his pushing of the wagon for what appear to be poor reasons.

I read you as ignorant Town.

[Balki B]

Maybe that could be your sig.

[Balki B]

tempted to lazy hammer

Do it

I don't think we're getting anywhere interesting from talking to him anymore

And I think at this point were all waiting to just hammer

Really smart reasons to encourage a lynch here in 24 hours.

Like, don't insist on reasons that I am scum. Just say "hammer cause we're all sick of this and we want the shortest and least informative day ever."

My read on Game has moved from ignorant town to gotta be scum.

So Gamma and Game are my biggest scumreads on this wagon. I need a bit more time to analyze the others. I still think that Siblings and Mario are town.

[Balki B]

Before anyone hammers, we should make a plan with night actions. If there is no clear plan, then we can draw no conclusions from Seer silence.

I still think Tenshii's plan is a strong one, and I Town read Tenshii for offering it. Cop chooses who to scan, and deer scans the same target. If seer does not out with guilty scan, that target becomes town clear.

[Balki B]

Can't help but add another condescending asshole dig at the end there, huh?

Cheers.

[Balki B]

It has two big advantages. (1) We can get useful information from the Seer without him outing. (2) To the extent Scum use it to direct their kill, we have used scum kills to kill people who were most likely to be lynched.

I'd be thrilled if Scum decide to shoot the scan target. It means we're killing likely scum.

[Balki B]

Can't help but add another condescending asshole dig at the end there, huh?

Cheers.

Don't take it so personally, it really is my play style, I can honestly say it has nothing to do with you

I'm not worried about personal insults. I'm worried about your soul.

[Balki B]

The idea that scum might kill the agreed scan target is a feature, not a bug.

And it is ridiculous that y'all won't let me volunteer to be the scan target.

[Balki B]

No worries. You're probably right. I'm quite sarcastic.

Don't worry, I'm not taking any of this too seriously.

[Balki B]

Eh, I find it all confusing. I need the avatars to keep people straight.

But, if you want to get me lynched (and you obviously do), that's probably the right way to do it is bring up that.

[Balki B]

Also, while I'm not taking any of this too seriously, I do genuinely believe you are a condescending asshole. (Just so we're clear)

[Balki B]

UNVOTE: Balki

@Balki, I am V/LA until Sunday, so if you want to live through today, my suggestion is, ISO A50. Find out WHY he was killed. Who was he really looking into. Quote it. Bold it. Figure out that puzzle for town.

Okay. I'll take a look and post some thoughts tomorrow.

[Balki B]

I read Almost50's ISO. Frankly, it's not good for those of us rooting for Balki's survival today. If anyone fearkilled Almost50 for having correct reads, it is Balki or Sesq. Almost was very focused on those 2.

Almost gives his first reads list at 367, with scum leans on "Gamma Emerald, Sesq, Hawk, havingfitz, Siblings Pet Doggo, DeltaW"

But following the Cop CC episode and Balki's skepticism about Comm's claim, Almost50 came out hard against Balki at 596.

At 620, Almost50 updated his reads, with a lynch pool of "Sesq, Hawk, havingfitz, DeltaW, Balki, Tenshii," but most confidence in scum reads on Balki and Sesq.

At 957, Almost50 provides some meta on Sesq, which essentially dispelled the notion that Sesq is lynchbait because Sesq has drifted on in games before by doing nothing.

Bottom Line

: Almost50's reads coalesced down to "Sesq, Hawk, havingfitz, DeltaW, Balki, Tenshii," but his biggest pushes and most confidence were in his reads on Balki and Sesq

A couple of other notes

: I'd be really surprised if the Vig killed Almost50. Upon reading his ISO, he just comes across as very townie. Firm positions, votes and pushes with intention and effort, collaboration with town reads, no fear. I haven't looked back to see who was scum reading Almost50, but I don't recall serious pushes in that direction. To me, it seems like the most likely reason for this kill is that Almost50 appeared very townie, with a lot of credibility, and ability to lead a lynch.

That said, I can already hear Comm coming at me with "but this is multi-ball, scum are aiming at each other!" Maybe...I don't know. I'd say that if anyone was hunting for strong town on N1, it was WWs, after mafia lost Godfather. So my best explanation is that WWs killed Almost50. I know I am town, so this somewhat implicates Sesq as being a WW in my eyes. But, in my albeit limited experience, I think you get in trouble assuming that the NKs scumread killed because someone was scumreading them.

Still, given what I saw in Almost50's ISO, my best read of the moment is that

Sesq is a WW

.

VOTE: Sesq

[Balki B]

I am also suspicious of Sesq's hard defense of me, and saying she would be shocked if Balki flipped scum, etc. I mean, don’t get me wrong, I appreciated it. But I felt at that time like my lynch was rather inevitable. And I know it’s multiball so scum can’t be sure who will flip town, but it felt to me like Sesq was too confident I would flip town, and was seeking credibility from the flip.

[Balki B]

Flubbernugget:

Voted Sesq because “they’ve made two bad votes so far and that’s the entirety of their play.”

At 368, joined the fast wagon on Comm, without any reasoning.

At 687, voted Tenshii without any reasoning.

Twice discredited the Delta wagon, calling it “mehhhhhh” and saying that he’d like to read the Delta eventually.

Hammered Delta at 1136 with no explanation, at a time when votes were Delta (8), Tenshii (5) and Delta was looking pretty inevitable.

At 1255, quotes GameNBurger’s suggestion that “next time, Balki, commit to bussing teammate sooner” by saying “If this is an accurate recollection of events I will be placing my vote here.” Then votes Balki at 1266.

I like this wagon, and I think Flubber looks like mafia who bussed Delta in the end, when Delta was going to go down either way. The subtle discrediting of the Delta wagon while it was in doubt, and then the hammer when it was very likely to happen anyway, without any explanation for why Flubber's reads changed.

My lynch pool is Flubber/Sesq. I'll stay on Sesq for now, but I would hammer Flubber.

[Balki B]

* * * Shameless pandering * * *

[Balki B]

Hammered Delta at 1136 with no explanation, at a time when votes were Delta (8), Tenshii (5) and Delta was looking pretty inevitable.

How does that make him scum? Town quickhammer too, you know.

It doesn't make his scum for sure, but in context it looks pretty scummy. Note the soft defenses of Delta earlier, calling the wagon "mehhhh," quoting people who comment on it and saying that this is why he doesn't want to join. And then he hammers at a time when hammer was likely to come anyway.

So, when lynch was in doubt, he's trying to make it stop. When lynch was inevitable, he's trying to take the cred from it.

Not conclusive by any means, but it looks a lot like a bus to me.

[Balki B]

When lynch was inevitable, he's trying to take the cred from it.

where did he try to take credit for the lynch?

I mean...he hammered. He doesn't have to say "hey guys, give me credit." In my experience, they rarely do.

Do you not agree that his action is consistent with a bus? What's your take?

[Balki B]

Balki read on Bella please

Are you asking me to read Bella's ISO or just present a read?

Frankly, I don't have a read at my fingertips. So...Null?

My current reads:

Town

: Mario, Siblings, Comm

Town lean

: WhyMafia

Scum

: Gamma

WW

: Sesq

Mafia

: Flubber

Everyone else: Null, but leaning townish by PoE

[Balki B]

Do you not agree that his action is consistent with a bus? What's your take?

IDK about Transcend, but Alisae and I both agree that that hammer comes 90% of the time from town there.

That's reasonable.

Did you feel like it was inevitable at the time? I did. But I also felt like my lynch was inevitable earlier today, so I may not understand site norms well enough. In a game this large, especially in multi, it just feels like most L-1 wagons are going to find one more, when many of the rest of the folks are uncommitted. If that's not right, it would impact my thinking on that hammer.

[Balki B]

Balki what happened to the scumlean of randomness and mafianess you had on me?

The Delta flip meant a lot, man. That wasn't a bus. You still could be WW, but you put your credibility on the line there so early in the game.

I guess you did that as my scum teammate just last game. But I wouldn't dream of lynching you until we're down to only looking for WWs.

[Balki B]

Balki read on Bella please

Are you asking me to read Bella's ISO or just present a read?

Frankly, I don't have a read at my fingertips. So...Null?

Then go form a read

You have made ZERO attempt to read her all game.

Seriously ISO dive her and tell me what you think.

Gosh...easy with the all caps.

I've spent my morning dancing for you guys. I'm going to go do some other very important stuff. I'll do a Belladive and post some thoughts in the next 24 hours or so.

[Balki B]

@Flubber,

Please tell us your thought process behind your hammer vote. You seemed like you didn't like the wagon. Then you hammered it. Give us detail. Please make yourself understood.

[Balki B]

Also, Siblings,

I miss Ali

!

[Balki B]

I mean...he hammered. He doesn't have to say "hey guys, give me credit." In my experience, they rarely do.

so then how is that taking credit? It's only taking credit if he's Mafia, so you're pigeonholing him into a mafia that hammered his buddy, which frankly I think is a terrible move to make in a multi-ball game.

I don't think flubber's that terrible of a player.

It's not a terrible move if Delta's lynch was inevitable. So the question for you is: in that situation, did Flubber think Delta's lynch was inevitable? You should know the answer more than me, as you know more about site norms here.

Also, I suppose I shouldn't pigeonhole him into Mafia. That hammer was consistent with WW hammer too. I guess I argued the Mafia side more because really the only reason to town read Flubber in this game at all would be to look at that hammer vote. He hasn't done anything else remotely helpful.

So my read should change from a Mafia read to a broader Scum read.

[Balki B]

Also, I suppose I shouldn't pigeonhole him into Mafia. That hammer was consistent with WW hammer too.

but then he's not doing it for credit, because if he's WW he doesn't know Delta is mafia.

And you said he did it for credit.

Also, it appears you are here now, and bella's ISO is short so give me that ISO dive.

Argh, no...I'm trying to step away. But you keep giving me one-liners that I can respond to in one line.

Right, if he is WW, he is doing it because it is a lynch that is not on a WW. If he is Mafia, he is doing it for credit. Bottom line, the hammer, after discrediting the wagon all along, and then citing no reasons for a change in opinion, is consistent with any alignment. It is no reason to townread. And there is nothing else there to townread in the rest of Flubber's play.

Opportunistic, reasonless, not looking like he's trying to solve a puzzle. Scum.

I'll do a Belladive later. Closing out!!!

[Balki B]

@Balki

if it was inevitable, why didn't YOU hammer Delta?

Okay -- one more --

I've explained this before: I am going to vote based on my own reads, and not based on anyone else's push. I know my reads are coming from a good place. I don't care if this extends the day. I'm a patient motha fucka.

[Balki B]

Back no Null on Mario. But I'm not hammering Delta. Still pretty Null.

this is a horrible reason to not hammer Delta, btw, especially if it was inevitable

Ridiculous.

You are saying I should hammer someone I null read just because lots of other people are voting there and

someone

is going to hammer eventually?

I believe in accountability for your vote. And you can only hold people accountable when you insist they vote with reasons and with intention. I better live up that standard myself if I'm going to apply it to others.

Voting to tip over a wagon just because it's going to tip anyway is anti-town.

[Balki B]

why can't flub be ww who hammered delta because it was inevitable etc.
or even mafia, because if it was inevitable he may as well get it over with?

+1

[Balki B]

@Alisae, you have a frog infestation. You need help.

Try this: http://greenfrogpestsolutions.com/

[Balki B]

NOTICE BALKI AVOIDING THE BELLA ISO DIVE

Yes I am. I promised it in 24 hours. So, I'm clearly scum with Bella. I suggest you add an underline and perhaps a different color to really make this pop.

[Balki B]

Notice Balki's shifting reasons

first he said flubber did it for credit

then when I pointed it out that he was pigeonholing him into mafia, he then change it to "well could be opportunistic WW"

shifting reasons

Not shifting at all. The hammer is NAI. It makes sense as any alignment because at that point in time, the lynch was inevitable anyway. It makes sense as WW to flip the day with no wolves lynched. It makes sense as scum to seek some credit for flipping godfather, when godfather was already a goner. It makes sense as town because Flubber seems super lazy and disinterested generally, so why not satiate some curiosity and see a flip.

So what else has Flubber done? Basically nothing except join whatever wagon has sprung up the fastest, while not explaining any of his votes, and discrediting the Delta wagon when it was forming.

Actually, as I think on it further, I do doubt that Flubber is a WW based on his earlier discrediting of the Delta wagon. Flubber has taken almost no stands whatsoever in this game -- it is odd that the one stand he has really taken was to discredit the Godfather wagon. Flubber is most likely to flip Mafia.

LOOK -- MY REASONING SHIFTED AGAIN!!!!!!!

(

Hint

, it's cause I don't know the answers, and I'm actually trying to puzzle this out)

[Balki B]

I better live up that standard myself if I'm going to apply it to others.

why are you applying standards to others

this is mafia. People play how they want. To expect someone not to lolhammer means you'll be scumreading a lot of people on this site for years to come.

Actually, can you show me other games where you've scumread someone for lolhammering. Surely you've played a game with someone lolhammering on here, yes?

No. This is my second game here. In my first, I was scum. Though, I could link you to the scumchat where I said repeatedly that the person who lolhammered on D1 would fall into serious hot water on D2, despite a nearly universal town read on D1, or Mario can confirm as he was my scummate.

[Balki B]

frame!kills are also a thing i see commonly, and i believe that it's scum trying to plant YOU as the killer, considering your wagon day 1

I thought about a framekill, but I don't think that narrative makes sense in this setup. It's hard to tell who killed who and for what reason. So it's unlikely that a faction will spend a kill just because they want to lynch the scumread of that kill. Seems like a much more efficient use of a kill is to knock off someone who is going to hurt you the next day.

Again, this same reasoning can be applied to suggest I might be scum, and that's wrong. So, I'm quite uniquely situated to understand the Almost50 kill as suggestive of Sesq being mafia.

Also, you might think, if Sesq did not kill Almost50, and Sesq is Town, she would suspect me of being the person who killed Almost50 because I'm the only one other than her who was in Almost50's priority lynch list. But she doesn't seem to think that.

[Balki B]

Siblings asked me to Belladive. I considered refusing, and screaming:

“what do I look like, a puppet?”

But then I just did it. Cause I am a puppet.

I'm glad I did it.

Bellaphant looks town

, and I would definitely not place a vote here today.

I really like 160, especially given Delta’s flip. Bella’s main point “Delta's post was weird, frustration without a clear come down, but implied one (why not both? or none?) would flip scum, but didn't follow this up,” just built on a point that others had already made. But I think Bella improved upon it clearly and crisply. This post also showed some interest in a Sesq vote and threw a little bit of shade at Flubber, which all makes sense to me from a town perspective. This post just generally reflects a view of the game that I shared at the time, and seems to come from a town place.

I also like Bellaphant’s reminder to Almost50 that they’ve played together before. Almost50 was relying on meta for many of his reads, and Bellaphant’s reminder was the kind of thing someone would do who has nothing to hide.

At 168, Bellaphant elaborates a bit on thinking that Game looks forced in his exchange with me. Looks sincere.

193 is a reasonable vote on Almost, given almost had only sheeped Sesq up to that point.

At 651, Bella lays down a vote on Delta to bring it to L-2. Lists no reasoning.

The lack of reasoning here is the one scummy thing I see in the whole ISO

.

722, 731, and 742 are all chalk full of stances, and clear in their direction. Seems to be doing things with a purpose -- not just to look busy. Not shy about voicing opinion.

I like 1359, and I like the thought about making Sesq have to work as scum if her one scum read is confirmed town. Seems like the way town with a strong scumread thinks about those sorts of things.

Bottom Line: I see clear direction, purpose, conviction, and no fear.

Town

.

[Balki B]

@Sesq, why am I wrong?

[Balki B]

1) because im town
2) because your logic doesnt work

Well fuck.

[Balki B]

I have an idea. Let's lynch Sesq.

[Balki B]

you could probably do this sorta potential scumreading type thing ur doing on literally anyone

i could just say that you're scum and that's why you killed a50

but i dont take that jump

because you havent actually done anything scummy outside of that

just like me

Well, you are narrowing my suspicion to my Almost50 ISO dive. There is more to it than that.

The three other reasons I suspect you are:

(1) Your hard defense of me when I was going down in flames seemed too confident;
(2) You haven't done anything useful;
(3) I don't understand how you can have a strong scumread on Bellaphant.

Perhaps you can spell out your case on Bellaphant? That might help.

[Balki B]

VOTE: balki

i know im gonna get accused of omgus and just get dismissed immediately but whatever

he's either arguing in bad faith (as scum) or being a complete noob and i'd lynch either

Wow!

Let me remind you what you said earlier today:

admit it: this wagon is dumb

i would be very surprised if this guy flips scum

honestly i dont think balki is scum

bella is, why may be lurkscum

Seems like you changed your mind awfully quick. Nothing to do with the fact that I'm coming for you?

[Balki B]

1) what motivation would scum have for that
2) this is completely subjective and a bullshit point in general. lots of townies are absolutely useless. it's only an actual valid point when someone is trying to make it look like they're being productive when they aren't. i did literally nothing all of day one and that's just a normal thing for me.
3) because she's done the same thing as i just described and has acted completely the opposite of a prior towngame with her

(1) Scum motivation for hard defending me is pretty clear. I'm going to flip town. You were oozing an "I told you guys so!" setup.
(2) Yes, lots of townies are useless, and yes point 2 is less alignment indicative than the others. But beginning to get into the meat of the game here, and the fact that you've done nothing to distinguish yourself as town is becoming more and more notable.
(3) Bellaphant has not done the same thing as you. Bellaphant displays a lot more thought, conviction, and direction. Please link to the game you have in mind, which informs your read of Bellaphant. Also, if you can explain what it is about that game that helps inform your read, that would help too.

[Balki B]

and no, bellaphant has done pretty much nothing, just went over the iso. feels like she was prodding random people with a stick and asking pointless questions for 75% of the iso. the other 25% was playing it safe

scum as fuck

Can you give me some examples of the "pointless questions"? And can you give me some examples of "playing it safe"? If you want to keep your ISO nice and compact, I'll settle for post numbers.

[Balki B]

My lynchfunnel: {Sesq, Flubber, Gamma}

#lynchfunnel

[Balki B]

VOTE: Tenshii
Doing what Transcend should have done.

I townread Tenshii for his Godly Seer Plan.



#GSP

How does that impact your thinking on Tenshii?

[Balki B]

WHAT GAME DID WE PLAY THAT YOU ARE BASING MY META ON? ALSO, TALK TO FROG ABOUT MY META

Sesq sent it to me at 1622.

Here it is:
viewtopic.php?f=52&t=70384

I haven't looked yet, but I'd be interested in your take.

[Balki B]

that was a SPD post man

Sorry. 1672 has the link to Bellaphant's meta that Sesq says she used.

[Balki B]

(1) Let's look for scum.

(2) Lets not tell every single player that they are unable to be "clear."

[Balki B]

I won't lynch Siblings today. I still find the fake Cop CC to be a very unusual play for scum there. And I think Siblings is a likely target for a scum NK.

Also, I still miss Alisae.

[Balki B]

@Game, I'd love to see a list of your scum reads and town reads. And more specifically, I'd like to know your read of Sesq.

[Balki B]

@Flubb, I plan to hammer you in about 4.5 hours. Please do your best to put your best reads down on the page before I do that.

[Balki B]

I would like us to go with Tenshii's plan tonight. Y'all have a few hours to get it implemented.

Also, if anyone on the Flubb wagon does not want it hammered, please speak up now.