Open 693 - Capture the (White) Flag - Mod KIA

[Io]

Apparently ya'll can't use BBCode.

[Io]

ello

oh hey
i know you

Well good for you.

[Io]

spot the difference

One moves

Are you implying that you are paralyzed or potentially dead since you cannot move?

[Io]

Let's lynch Delta

He'll just not start day 1 ever then.

Disclaimer: Sorry that joke may have been a bit mean. Love ya Delta even if we have a slow start. <3

[Io]

I mean, I would know; I'm a Town N0 Global Neapolitan. Why do you

think

pregame took so long?

Wouldn't you just get that stuff in your role card though?
And wouldn't Dest already have everyone's roles and be able to mass PM you them at once?

That's what he did for me. After all I am the real N0 Global Neapolitan.

[Io]

If you were the real N0 Global Neapolitan, you would know that you needed a chance to select if you were going to use your global Neapolitan or not.

Only a fool would choose to not use it.

it's what happens when people who don't play mafia decide cop is a boring role and make all prs millers

To be fair, Gunsmith is a lot worse.

[Io]

Yeah, all it does is detect if someone is a power role or not.

[Io]

VOTE: Dongempire

That is clearly a dog not a bear.

[Io]

Can confirm I'm vanilla scum

woooooooooow
that might actually be a slip

That better be a joke because if not you have some issues.
And if that is a joke, you have some poor tastes. That or you just like self deprivation jokes to make you look like VI.

[Io]

mario is a spy

aren't we all?

No, we're N0 Global Neapolitans don't you remember?

[Io]

It doesn't have to be RVS.

Why flairs?

WE HAVE NO MATERIAL.
I NEED SOMETHING TO WORK WITH TO PROPERLY SCUMREAD.
god

OK BUT WHY FLAIR OUT OF ANYONE ELSE YOU COULD HAVE RANDOMLY PICKED?

LIKE, I KNOW WE HAVE NO INFORMATION.

Or at least you don't. I've got notes and thoughts already. Very little, but I have them. Are you saying you have absolutely zero information out of what we have?

WHY ARE WE SUDDENLY TALKING IN ALL CAPS WHEN THERE IS LITERALLY NO REASON TO BE DOING SO?

[Io]

I personally don't really get any use out of RVS until after some scums die and we can get associations, so really I've just been watching people's posting patterns moreso than who's actually being voted.

With that being said I frankly see nothing wrong with either of you two, QR's RV has a reasonable explanation, and you're at least going for trying to get discussion and stuff going and considering Mafia thrive in inactive town's I say that's at least good enough for you to not be of immediate concern to me.

I'd like for the memes to sort of die down soon though, because there's no way to read someone who is just meming about. Part of the reason I put my RV on empire because he's just a meme.

[Io]

The role PM's said to confirm what your color was so it's not like it was hidden that there even were colors.
Plus Empire even confirmed that anyone could ask the mod what the colors were.
It's basically just a completely pointless argument and doesn't confirm you as Town BTD.

But what I will say about this argument is that I'm a bit curious as to why Empire would claim to have been town asking about what color the scum got because town basically get nothing for asking the mod about the Mafia's colors and the Mafia gain from being able to potentially do what BTD just did.
Along with the fact Empire used the fact that he asked the mod before the game what the scum's color was as the reason for voting against BTD doesn't really make me think him as town.

[Io]

UNVOTE:

Mostly because the mod had said he told the scum the town was blue and Empire had said he asked the mod.
Could still be scum lying about it, but it's enough for me to unvote for now.

[Io]

VOTE: Chickadee

Do you do anything other than fluff and vote?

[Io]

No, just curious why you complain about people not playing when you're the person contributing the least to the game.

[Io]

I don't understand what you're saying.

[Io]

You're saying that no one is playing the game.
That's the definition of a complaint.

[Io]

You're saying that no one is playing the game.
That's the definition of a complaint.

No, its not. Nothing in that statement implies I'm unsatisifed with the situation.

It does, but whatever, you're rather pointless to argue with since you can't even notice a blatant contradiction like you posting fluff while complaining about no one playing the game.
And you still miss the point entirely that you've posted nothing but fluff until I called you out on it, and all you've done since then is try to detract from my accusation that you've only posted fluff by saying I'm scum for pointing out you're contradictions.

VOTE: Lil Uzi

i was just going to leave it at that, because you could just be ignorant, but I realized typing that last sentence that you are just trying to avoid my accusation and beat around the bush to try and turn my accusation into a reason I am scum.

[Io]

I did point out that it was a complaint. What more do you want? "Let's all go back to actually playing mafia" is a direct statement that you wanted to change the course the game was going. You were "unsatisfied," as you are wanting to put it, with the state of the game and called for a change. That is the definition of a complaint. The problem I have with you is that you delivered this complaint while contributing nothing to the game yourself. And the reason for that being a problem is that you hardly have the right to complain about the state of the game when you've done nothing to prevent or otherwise change the state of the game.

I also wasn't saying you posting fluff was indicative of you being scum. If I was I would have just voted you for it instead of push you to contribute.

[Io]

OK, but fine. If you think it's unfair and a misrepresentation to call that a complaint, then what is it?
What was the intent of that post.

[Io]

I did point out that it was a complaint. What more do you want? "Let's all go back to actually playing mafia" is a direct statement that you wanted to change the course the game was going. You were "unsatisfied," as you are wanting to put it, with the state of the game and called for a change. That is the definition of a complaint. The problem I have with you is that you delivered this complaint while contributing nothing to the game yourself. And the reason for that being a problem is that you hardly have the right to complain about the state of the game when you've done nothing to prevent or otherwise change the state of the game.

I also wasn't saying you posting fluff was indicative of you being scum. If I was I would have just voted you for it instead of push you to contribute.

OK, but fine. If you think it's unfair and a misrepresentation to call that a complaint, then what is it?
What was the intent of that post.

Yeah and that statement still doesn't imply what a complaint actually is. It was more of a suggestion. An idea that was put forward for consideration which was evident by the first part of the post. A call for us a unit to regroup. By no means a complaint.

OK. That still doesn't explain why you were calling for a unit to regroup when you've been walking from the conflict the whole time.

[Io]

OK, that was a bad analog. I really shouldn't use those.

Basically what I've been saying is that you were putting this idea forward and not following the idea yourself.
The idea being "actually playing mafia."
And why did I say you were not following this idea?
Because until I mentioned you were only posting fluff and votes that's all you were doing. You weren't trying to do anything to play the game or contribute to discussions.

Is that clear enough for you? Because I don't think you are understanding anything I'm saying because you still have not addressed the core of this argument I've been trying to get across to you.
All you had said in regards to the argument I'm making is in 218 where you said this:

Also if you notice, when you first accused me of complaining, I replied with the same tone you used because I didn't find it a fair accusation. I'm still struggling even now as I write this as to how you thought I was complaining. As for fluff, it's NAI. It has no bearing on my alignment. It doesn't get anyone lynched but yet scum still try to push it as AI. Baffling.

Which is just a strawman because I'm not disreguarding with this, I agree with this, yet you're saying that I'm voting for you because of your fluff.
I've hopefully made it clear I'm voting you because you're being contradictory with what you are saying and doing and trying to use me pushing you to contribute a reason I am scum.

[Io]

*line 8 "disregarding" is supposed to say "disagreeing."
I like autocorrect.

[Io]

I don't understand what you're saying.

You accused me of complaining.

Complaining means to express dissatisfaction or annoyance about a state of affairs or an event. Where exactly did you see me expressing that in the post you linked?

Hey. Stop beating around the bush mate. Not everything has to be their exact same definition as in the dictionary. Even if you werent complaining there, i dont see the reason for you to drag this out for so long.

I'm chilling.

Io is the one that's going hard here.

I consider that more medium than hard.
I was just going to go soft to get you to contribute a bit more, but went a little harder than I usually do.

UNVOTE:

[Io]

VOTE: Flairs

Honestly there is not much to go off of from their 2 posts (165 and 236) so this is mostly just to put a bit of pressure on them as in those posts I get a slight vibe they are scum motivated.
I say this primarily because they are only commenting on others reads and not making any their selves. It feels to me at least like those are both pretty safe posts (which of course is not a scum tell, but I feel lit's more characteristic of Mafia to be playing it safe with reads.) Their comments also are quite on the safe side with taking a fence position in 165 the "I agree with read, but..."
It's mostly a gut vote they could be scum. Need more content from them to be sure though.

[Io]

aaaagh there isn't enough to read yeeeet
I can't read anyone yeeeet

You should get some glasses then.

[Io]

VOTE: QuantumRadius
blatant opportunism

Hey only I'm allowed to be an opportunistic townie.

I don't know I'm told it's a bad thing but I like it. It keeps scum paranoid if I push every little mistake they make.

[Io]

why are you wagoning me for me not finding enough content to base a read on

VOTE: Quantum
Why have you not already solved the game? Gosh.

[Io]

UNVOTE:

How about no. He's at L-2, well now L-3, and I'm not particularly fond of having someone at L-1 or L-2 for a rvs.
Because heaven knows someone will lolhammer on accident.

[Io]

I was. I thought it was a joke to want to lynch someone on not having reads 2 days into day 1.

[Io]

Day 1 started 6 days ago..

Well in Io time it's only been a few days.
That and I can't tell time I guess.

[Io]

Well there's your problem.
You can't just rely on night actions to make reads.
Especially in this game that is strictly made of vanilla.

[Io]

Well there's your problem.
You can't just rely on night actions to make reads.
Especially in this game that is strictly made of vanilla.

i can make reads in a vanilla game
they're just terrible.
but whatever, ill look anyway

So...In essence your defense for the accusation is that you're just not good at scumhunting?
I mean I know this is going to sound rather mean, but you're not really presenting a good case to not kill you because it sounds like there isn't a huge loss if you're lynched.
If you're scum then it's a pretty lucky lynch, and if you're town you're pretty much saying you wouldn't be very good help late game aside from being contribution for majority.

So.
VOTE: Quantum
Sorry if you're town, but I would just say you would need to work on like reading up on some Mafia Theory maybe or try reading up on games you were town in and see where Mafia slipped up and how to notice when a Mafia slips up.

[Io]

Yeah I realized you would be an easy mislynch and that's what concerns me about keeping you around for late game.

Because let's face it you flat out said you would be a great asset for the Mafia come late game because you could easily be manipulated or mislynched.
Come a 3v2 of 4v2 (TvS) scenario you would be a pretty large detriment for the town regardless of your alignment.
I ran a bunch of what if scenarios in my head and I couldn't see anything good coming from you not being lynched D1 or 2.

The predominant of those being that if you're Town the Mafia wont kill you because you pointed out to them that you are bad at scum hunting. It would be good for them to have someone like that around in the final 5 or 6 for two reasons.
The first being like you pointed out yourself you would not be a hard target to mislynch and they could push you on that you have been no help to the town. Though it would depend on how they went about that, and really if they would try to risk that. More explained in the next paragraph.
The other being they could prey on your lack of self confidence and use it to persuade you into lynching a townie.

Then if you're Mafia it's a bit better for the town for you to live late game than if you were town, but not by much.
You would basically be given a free past almost to not be lynched in a 3v2 or 4v2.
Like I said earlier you would be a horrible kill target for Mafia since you told them you would be a good person to keep late game. This means if you are Mafia you get a flawless excuse as to why you are never night killed.
In adition to that you would be giving little to no reads to keep your VI card in play making you an extremely risky lynch (given this is white flag) since only 2 Mafia need to be lynched going after the Mafia who is nearly impossible to read due to not making associative tails or reads is far more risky than trying to lynch a Mafia based on the first one's flip.

Honestly it is reaching into policy lynch territory, but frankly you made yourself such a valuable asset to the Mafia if you are town it could be fatal if you lived to the final 5 or 6.

And honestly if you're coming out and saying that you were faking being a VI, then you're gambit was pretty reckless as if you actually failed you would liekly have been lynched due to the lynch all liars mentality for faking to be a VI.

[Io]

Also that line:
"you realize i would be an easy mislynch. therefore you are pushing me because i will offer little resistance in the form of defense (i can't really prove i'm a vt), and because the town isn't losing much if they do. therefore i'm an ideal first ml to be pushing as a mafia member, plus you have the support of the town."
is wrong because I'm wanting you to be policy lynched essentially because of what I said in the aforementioned post.
There's no clear indication that you are town or mafia as far as I can see, and if you continued to make little to no reads all game there would be no associates on you and there would never be a point you could be labled town or scum,

[Io]

Yeah I realized that because you said it.
But I was thinking from the perspective of "holy **** this guy would ruin the town if he lived late game if any Mafia were to even have the slightest hint he was a VI."

[Io]

UNVOTE:
I think it's a pretty reckless play in all honesty.

[Io]

Go ahead. I'll probably not get to it until tomorrow because I got up early for work and I'm getting tired.

[Io]

I see a lot of the votes against me using the buzzword opportunistic, and I'm calling it a buzzword because it's not even being used correctly to describe the post.

Opportunistic is fairly strait forward of a concept, and it's pushing someone for any slight hint of evidence they could reasonably be scum.
Here's a side by side comparison of what is an opportunistic push and the vote I made against QR:

Spoiler: quotes

VOTE: Flairs

Honestly there is not much to go off of from their 2 posts (165 and 236) so this is mostly just to put a bit of pressure on them as in those posts I get a slight vibe they are scum motivated.
I say this primarily because they are only commenting on others reads and not making any their selves. It feels to me at least like those are both pretty safe posts (which of course is not a scum tell, but I feel lit's more characteristic of Mafia to be playing it safe with reads.) Their comments also are quite on the safe side with taking a fence position in 165 the "I agree with read, but..."
It's mostly a gut vote they could be scum. Need more content from them to be sure though.

Well there's your problem.
You can't just rely on night actions to make reads.
Especially in this game that is strictly made of vanilla.

i can make reads in a vanilla game
they're just terrible.
but whatever, ill look anyway

So...In essence your defense for the accusation is that you're just not good at scumhunting?
I mean I know this is going to sound rather mean, but you're not really presenting a good case to not kill you because it sounds like there isn't a huge loss if you're lynched.
If you're scum then it's a pretty lucky lynch, and if you're town you're pretty much saying you wouldn't be very good help late game aside from being contribution for majority.

So.
VOTE: Quantum
Sorry if you're town, but I would just say you would need to work on like reading up on some Mafia Theory maybe or try reading up on games you were town in and see where Mafia slipped up and how to notice when a Mafia slips up.

There is a pretty clear difference in that I was pushing Flairs in the first post because of a gut that he was scum. That's the definition of being opportunistic.
The second post is nothing like that though, I think it's clear that was a vote to remove a harmful player from the town. That is certainly not what an opportunistic vote it. It's what a policy vote is called.
That basically means like I explained in 296 that keeping QR alive would have meant the Town have a massive disadvantage come late game (under the assumption he was not lying which he was,
but we're not talking about hindsight here).
Furthermore I have set priorities on who I think should be lynched which goes loosly like this: Confirmed Scum/Likely Scum/Village Idiots (which I thought QR was) and other Unreadable Players/Slightly Scum/Other Policy Lynches such as a notoriously good mafia player or bad town player.
That's why I had QR higher on my want to lynch list than the gut suspicion I had of Flairs being scum.

Secondly I have to address Dong's post directly because really his logic just doesn't quite make sense to me and is just wrong from what I can tell.
In his first point that it was not RVS when I made the post because post 163 was making it clear that we were out of RVS doesn't make sense for a few reasons:
One, RVS is defined by well random voting it's not a concrete "it can't go to post X". And considering Tailo, Kawso, MM4 had given no reason for voting him which is what random votes are. My vote was just a joke as well, so when you took him to L-2 trying to seriously lynch him I grew concerned and wanted to get off.
Two, how is post 163 showing a clear indication RVS is done? That post was addressing the argument over weather scum knew Town was blue or not which the mod then confirmed they did know, so I was right it was a pointless argument. That post in general had absolutely nothing to do with voting. Yes it was discussion, but discussion can still happen in RVS because RVS exists outside of discussion as again it is just defined by randomly voting people.
Moving on I don't exactly appreciate your insult that I've not been following the game because I've been keeping on top of everything the whole game and even combed through ISO's which lead me to thinking Flair was potential scum. Just because there was 1 post where I thought we were 48 hours into the game, that doesn't mean that I haven't been following the game. I have a few reasons as to why I messed up and thought it was only 48 hours but I'm not going to get into a rant about my day yesterday or go beyond mentioning that I was in another Mafia game offsite that was 48ish hours into day 1.
After that minirant the only other thing I haven't addressed from that post is the notion of me 180ing which I guess is presumably because I unvoted him for being at L-2 then putting him at L-2. Yeah, OK that would be a contridiction if you ignore the reasoning behind the unvote and revote. The unvote I already explained how I think you were wrong with saying it wasn't RVS, but the revote I also explained in the last paragraph in that I came to the realization that he was not good for the town to have around.

Another just slight addon I wanted to make about the supposed 180 in reasoning for voting him was because it hadn't clicked in my head until 290 that he was a VI (or really just pretending to be a VI). I hadn't noticed that before that he was being such an obvious VI. While I don't like that I missed that in the first place because of how thorough and observant I like to think I am that's basically the reason I had voted him on the 3rd or so time he screamed out that he was a VI and not the first or so times.

[Io]

Also Chick there's a vote count on this page, so not sure what vote count you're waiting on.

[Io]

The Io wagon is bad.

y

Maybe he's just scum and slipped knowing I was town?

[Io]

i dislike io wagon because occam's razor is a thing
it's more likely io just has a cold and calculating playstyle than scum using a claim to be a VI to elaborately jump on the wagon than to jump on for the scummy things QR has done.
also the wagon composition is pretty horrible.

Not really unless you can show us that's her town meta. I have a feeling you can't but I'll humor you. How much experience do you have with her if any?

Also I think there are fruit hanging way lower than Io. Why does Quantum as scum push on her as opppsed to BTD, Chickadee, or even Flairs?

Who other than Quantum do you take issue with being on the wagon?

Honestly you of all people should know my playstyle since you've played with me and I don't change how I play as town or scum.

[Io]

But really I don't see how my playstyle factors into the argument, because it's an argument about philosophy more than anything.
If anyone's playstyle would be taken into account it would be QR's since he claims to do a lot of VI reaction tests.

@LUV I actually realized I think you were a player in a game I hosted. Sorry about that. I just only recognize you and BTD from this player list.

[Io]

Oh you're reaction sounded like you've pulled it many times before and never worked from your shock of someone well reacting to it.

[Io]

Io pushes QR for saying that reads they do make are terrible. Now, Io has just said that they should not be expected to develop reads in "RVS". If Town have a principle, they are more likely to follow their own principle as if they think something is scummy when others do it they would think that it is scummy when they do it and vice versa (barring meta). Scum are looking for mislynches. They want to get out of their own lynch (excluding bussing) and want to find an excuse to lynch someone else. Scum do not need to maintain the same standards for them and others. They can achieve their aims by essentially being hypocritical. Of course, they want to avoid this as they may get called out for it but they may slip up when trying to push someone.

Here, Io is essentially going against what I presumed was their Town mental state (that it was RVS and they should avoid lolhammers). This could still come from Town, but this post is more likely to come from scum Io.

This is pretty much just flar out wrong.
It was clear I voted QR because he said he was flat out not going to make reads which as I explained in 296 why him refusing to put effort into making reads is horrible for the town regardless of his alignment.
Also me voting someone with a valid reason is not hypocritical as I said I wan't going to lynch someone or let them get lynched in RVS. And voting someone with a valid reason is the exact opposite of RVS.

[Io]

holy shit that's hammer
wtf

It's not, but why are you sounding shocked if you were so confident I'm scum?

[Io]

I get that, but there is no day timer, so day just ends when we feel it ready.

[Io]

I read ISO's because it's the fastest way to find out if someone is at a glance being townie or scummy.
And honestly what you described in that 3rd paragraph is pretty much what I call RVS. It's rather pointless arguing over what post RVS stops at though, but voting someone to get them to L-2 or L-1 (Which MM4 was pushing for to happen) to get information is RVS.

[Io]

VOTE: Dongempire

You're pushes on me in particular are feeling very scummy.
Like you're whole argument is that I don't follow the game and am wrong about RVS.

And really the fact you are willing to lynch me over just that (and me ISOing) and to end the day right now with such confidence saying that you're going to lead day 2 and find another scum off me flipping scum is pinging my suspicions a bit.
Also since you're saying I'm also scum for ISOing and voting Flairs is furthering my suspicions on Flairs to the point I am very confident if one of you is scum you both are.

[Io]

So for starts, the reaction test feels easily fakeable to me which is why I don't entirely believe that Quantum was planning on doing it- I think it's more likely that it was just an attempt at defending himself while getting towncred at the same time, so a scumread on him and I'm going to look further into Io now

No. OK, when a reaction test is used to defend and draw attention away from yourself it is typically, not always, pretty obvious.
For one, he would use it when he was in threat of being lynched. Not try to draw attention to himself to get people to lynch him.

[Io]

VOTE: Dongempire

You're pushes on me in particular are feeling very scummy.
Like you're whole argument is that I don't follow the game and am wrong about RVS.

And really the fact you are willing to lynch me over just that (and me ISOing) and to end the day right now with such confidence saying that you're going to lead day 2 and find another scum off me flipping scum is pinging my suspicions a bit.
Also since you're saying I'm also scum for ISOing and voting Flairs is furthering my suspicions on Flairs to the point I am very confident if one of you is scum you both are.

And im also suspicious because you keep using the word "lynch" rather than "push" when theres not enough concrete evidence. Lynch QR, lynch him, lynch her, lynch the mod, but never the word push. Thats why im also suspicious of you.

I like how you said that quoting me saying push.
And besides that if you were to just Control + F my ISO page they are pretty close to the same in frequently used words (factoring in the quoted instances of the words)
And for the vast majority of the times I said "lynch" or variant of I'd say they were reasonable usage in the context of the usage. It's not like I was substituting lynch for push always so this point is verifiably false.

Also as far as I can tell the only "human error" thing I ever even mentioned was me messing up with how long the day's been going. Other than that the human error argument I've never used and that's just a stupid human error that's not even relevant to anything.

[Io]

Thats because i was pushing you, not lynching you. Try to replace the word lynch in your quotes with push and it works fine. If you try replacing push with lynch it doesnt work half as well. Its not that your percentage of saying it, its that you could've said something else that wouldve fitted the bill. If you were town.

Nice cherrypicking. Anything else to add?

OK, so if that's the case then go ahead and prove it please. Because when I look through the ISO the instances I see of me saying lynched are valid reasons for the word and just make as much if not more sense than saying pushed. I'm so confident with this that I can guarantee that you could not take quotes to even make this point viable without the same insane stretching that you've been doing this whole game.
Seriously you can grab any 3 quotes from me you like and prove that it was completely unnecessary to say lynched and pushed would have worked better to describe what I was saying.
This entire point of yours is basically degrading to you don't like my word choice which is frankly just a stupid accusation to begin with.

And there's not been any cherrypicking.
I don't see why if you're town you feel the need to lie so much about what I've said and give these halfassed weak pushes.
I've yet to see a single valuable piece of criticism come out of your mouth this whole game.

[Io]

Like seriously empire if you thought I was scum why are you making mountains out of mole hills to look for an excuse to vote me.
You're the only one who is actively looking for an excuse to vote me. Everyone else at least can come up with a valid reason to vote (be it just a gut like LUV or a reaction test like QR and Chick (which I don't even agree with but whatever that's a rant for another day))without making excuses like you are.

[Io]

I don't see why if you're town you feel the need to lie so much about what I've said and give these halfassed weak pushes.
I've yet to see a single valuable piece of criticism come out of your mouth this whole game.

As for this. Has dongempire ever explicitly lied anywhere, can you provide this?

Why does whether he has "valuable" criticism something which reflects on his alignment? Tis quite possible for town to be mistaken and for scum to be reasonable. I read this as you take issue simply with how he does things, rather than looking into what may be the intent behind what he does.

No it's not that I dislike his playstyle it's that he's made up arguments as to why I am scum by stretching heavily and just flat out lying about some things like I'm purposefully misusing or even just misusing in general which I don't think I have terminology and not keeping up with the game.

I've pointed out in multiple of my posts addressing his arguments why they are not backed up so I've already proved he is.

[Io]

So my computer had an oopsie. I'll try and fix it today so I'm going to be less active and the posts I make will be significantly small until it is fixed.

[Io]

Fixed comp.

But uh.

Like, I am pretty fucking sure the scumteam is Dang, Quantum, LUV.
Pretty fucking sure.

Why Quantum exactly? I don't really think a reaction test is a scum tell.
It's null at best.

[Io]

Just sheep me on Io, if I'm wrong you can lynch me tomorrow.

That is literally the worst thing you can say if you're town and not a Cop.

[Io]

I am trying to wagon Dangempire.

Well the caravan seems to have other plans right now.

[Io]

I'd still like to see Flairs or Empire strung up, but Sesq is being questionable with their posts and really the only viable wagon I can be on.

VOTE: sesq

[Io]

VOTE: sesq
choochoo

that's not the sound of bussing...

What?

[Io]

See? Getting some reactions is fine and dandy and its much better than sitting around voting Io.

LUV scum, Jimmy town.
I'll touch more on this later, right now im going to focus on the task at hand.
VOTE: IO

If LUV is scum you're a hypocrite because LUV's been death tunneling me the whole game and if you think I'm scum you are flat wrong.

--------------------------------------

So here's my thoughts on QR and Empire as I am starting to suspect them as a scum team.
It starts back at post 303: Note that from QR's reaction test he said that is confirmed Empire as town and me as scum. Nothing really suspicious about that, standard reaction test result post.
It really wasn't until recently I realized that QR could very likely be scum with Empire. And what pinged me this may be the case was post 546 from Empire.
The reason that post makes me suspicious that QR and Empire could be a scum team was because of Empire saying LUV was scum with me which I think could have been an accidental slip trying to save QR. The reason for this being that (assuming I am correct in this connection) is that empire would know that QR lead a death tunnel on a townie and it would be wise for him to push suspicion onto another player who was on the wagon, and one that had very little reasoning for the vote which would be LUV.
There's also as I think it was Chick who pointed out QR was seemingly acting like his reaction test was a confirmable town move.
TLDR: Empire seemingly covering for QR nearing end day and QR "confirming" Empire through the reaction test is making them a likely scum grouping in my opinion.



There's also some outliars I could see as scum like Flairs, Sesq, and MM4.
Flairs as I pointed out could be scum with Empire as Empire was white knighting them in a way since he was using my slight push on Flairs as a reason I am scum.
Sessq because of what Chick and MM4 already pointed out, and MM4 because it feels like they are trying to buddy up with me a bit.
I would avoid going after these two though until at least one member from each of those possible scum groups I mentioned above are dead. Preferably for me would be LUV and Empire that die. Assuming 1 flips scum which I think is likely one will I'm pretty sure the other in their respective groups is also scum.

Keep in mind only 2 scum need to die, hince why I don't think going after outliar scum with no associations like Sesq is a good idea because even if they flip scum and not town they will give no information as to who other possible scum are.

VOTE: Dongempire

I'm going back to voting for Empire. We still have at least 3 days and it's on hold while we get replacements so I'd rather try and get the person I want lynched than going for someone who may be scum but will give no associations.
At least if Empire flipped scum he would be telling of the alignments of QR, LUV, and Flairs I believe. And if he ends up being town then he was probably right about LUV being scum as the only reason I'm not scum reading LUV is because I am scum reading Empire and those two I don't think could be scum together.

[Io]

My experience leads me to believe that town would've consolidated on Io already.

So I'm scum for not having already been lynched.
OK.

[Io]

My experience leads me to believe that town would've consolidated on Io already.

So I'm scum for not having already been lynched.
OK.

Didn't imply or say that?

Well yes it was pretty heavily implied.
If you're experience leads you to believe the town would have already lynched me if I was scum that would imply you think the whole Mafia is working to not lynch me.
Which there would only be 2 Mafia if you went by that logic meaning that it would be a rather pointless argument as you would still have 10 people who would hypothetically lynch me if I were scum,

[Io]

I was suspicious of her, found Chickadee's posting more suspicious and then I voted her, and then I had a lengthy conversation with Io which left me thinking that Io is scum. I don't see what follow up is needed.

This doesn't make a lot of sense given the order of events.

You voted me at the very start of day 1. All the posts before that were before the game even started and nothing other than jokes about the mod not starting the game or small talk about memes so there was nothing for you to even be suspicious of by the time you said you were suspicious of me.

Not to mention you were left thinking I was scum because I called you out for your odd comments and lack of an impact you were having on the game (ie. fluffing and placing down votes without any reason).

[Io]

OK then which of those pregame posts was scummy?

[Io]

I also don't get why you just counter every single argument by screaming "misrepresentation."
You've never explained how it's misrepresented if anything you're just misrepresenting it because I did explain it, but it's hard to have a discussion when you're opponent keeps screaming that you're misrepresenting everything without say how it is or if you do you conflate misrepresentation with misunderstanding or misinterpretation.

VOTE: LUV

[Io]

@Mod: Just pause the game overnight. You're ruining it by pausing it this way.

EBWOP.

There's also this little issue.
You're trying to run down the day timer which literally only helps Mafia.

[Io]

I also don't get why you just counter every single argument by screaming "misrepresentation."
You've never explained how it's misrepresented if anything you're just misrepresenting it because I did explain it, but it's hard to have a discussion when you're opponent keeps screaming that you're misrepresenting everything without say how it is or if you do you conflate misrepresentation with misunderstanding or misinterpretation.

VOTE: LUV

OK then which of those pregame posts was scummy?

I found the tone of your earlier posts forced.

You accused me of complaining, I give you the definition of complaining and ask you to show and/explain how I'm complaining, and then shortly after you failed to do and still accused me of complaining. At the point you are just giving a false and misleading accounts of the events that occurred before your accusation.

I literally did that.

I did point out that it was a complaint. What more do you want? "Let's all go back to actually playing mafia" is a direct statement that you wanted to change the course the game was going. You were "unsatisfied," as you are wanting to put it, with the state of the game and called for a change. That is the definition of a complaint. The problem I have with you is that you delivered this complaint while contributing nothing to the game yourself. And the reason for that being a problem is that you hardly have the right to complain about the state of the game when you've done nothing to prevent or otherwise change the state of the game.

I also wasn't saying you posting fluff was indicative of you being scum. If I was I would have just voted you for it instead of push you to contribute.

And you're argument "I found the tone of your earlier posts forced." is complete bull because you're saying that my 4 pregame posts were forced to look townie which isn't even a feasible argument because literally anyone can go read those 4 posts and realize you're full of shit.

[Io]

Correction either you're full of shit or you're a time traveler who uses posts after you claim to have become suspicious as evidence for said suspicion.

[Io]

It's bull that you're saying the first 4 posts I make a forced without explaining how they are forced or in what way.
You can't prove it, otherwise you would have already done that since the 4 posts are small and it should be easy to show how they are forced.

In 586 you laid out your justification for your suspicion of me like so "I was suspicious of her, found Chickadee's posting more suspicious and then I voted her, and then I had a lengthy conversation with Io which left me thinking that Io is scum."
This suspicion is based on those 4 posts that you are now saying are forced as of post 593. (They can only be based on those 4 posts because that's the only point that the order of events makes sense for your justification as you said you were suspicious of me before voting CHick and you've been voting me since the start of the day and as I've explained that suspicion can only be based on the 4 pregame posts I made.)

So as of now you're trying to force a justification for your suspicions you had in 39. And it's obviously being forced because you're not able to back up your own justification that are looking like a flimsy attempt to justify an early baseless vote otherwise you can come up with any form of evidence.

[Io]

Basically you're trying to force a justification for why I'm scum, and failing to do so because you can't actually come up with evidence for your justification, and you're attempts to do so without even attempting to reason or even interact with me as you've said before is a clear indicator you're scum. Town simply do not go into this intense of a death tunnel without listening to anything their opposition says and scrambling to make flismy justifications.

[Io]

Thank you, I just wanted you to provide some quotes.
In all honesty there is actually no defense to a "this was forced" argument other than "no it's not" which is rather self evident.
I also found 19 quite funny and clever. I liked it.
The apology in 30 was pretty much just something I tacked on because when I read back over it in the preview I was concerned it would be a bit too harsh of a joke as it was clear the reason the day wasn't starting was due to the mod having something IRL or a scheduled that was just slow to this game, and I'm just cautious about jokes that could potentially relate to IRL things and I just didn't want Delta to think that I was calling him a bad mod for not being super active.

[Io]

You know, it's funny you bring up the deadline thing. If I think you're scum in this setup, I'm going to also want the mod to stop pausing the deadline in order to prevent your partners from finding ways to get the town to not lynch you.

I suppose that's fair...If there wasn't 10 townies who could reasonably drown out 2 Mafia voices.

[Io]

Well if half of the game wasn't inactive

Also true. There's barely enough active people to make up a 7 man wagon.
I think it's just the constant people being replaced. Hince why the day is paused because there's currently 2 people who are being replaced and we just had like 2 or 3 replacements join.

[Io]

VOTE: QuantumRadius
sheep me to freelo

No

I may have a scum read on them, but it's not my strongest and I'm more confident that either LUV or Empire flips scum than trying to go after someone who may be scum or doing suboptimal town play.

[Io]

No

I may have a scum read on them, but it's not my strongest and I'm more confident that either LUV or Empire flips scum than trying to go after someone who may be scum or doing suboptimal town play.

I don't understand this unwillingness when you are currently leading wagon.

Well the day is paused so there is no current rush to lynch, and if there is no rush to lynch I feel like voting someone I feel is more likely to flip scum than someone less likely.

[Io]

VOTE: Io

This day needs to end.

L-1

[Io]

Io, of you are town please don't vote yourself. Only morons vote themselves. Are you a moron?

I'm tired not a moron.