Open 688: Diffusion of Power (Game Over)

Kelvin Smith · Tue Jul 11, 2017 9:16 am

In post 3379, Vedith wrote:VOTE: Titus
This or Navy and we win.

How is that a foregone conclusion?

Kelvin Smith · Tue Jul 11, 2017 9:17 am

In post 3384, RadiantCowbells wrote:don't wanna be a canadian idiot
don't wanna be some beer swilling hockey nut

What was the meaning of this post?

Kelvin Smith · Tue Jul 11, 2017 9:24 am

In post 3391, RadiantCowbells wrote:
In post 3390, Kelvin Smith wrote:
In post 3384, RadiantCowbells wrote:don't wanna be a canadian idiot
don't wanna be some beer swilling hockey nut
What was the meaning of this post?
They all live on donuts and moose meat
And they leave the house without packin' heat

Again, what is the point of quoting Canadian Idiot? This is a legitimate question.

Kelvin Smith · Tue Jul 11, 2017 9:33 am

In post 3395, gigabyteTroubadour wrote:he's just shitposting

Is he known for shitposting though? I haven't ever seen him shitpost. And if I didn't know any better, I'd call it signaling to his partner for some reason. Like at night he established some sort of shot that he would call based on the song he quoted or something.

Kelvin Smith · Tue Jul 11, 2017 9:46 am

In post 3400, gigabyteTroubadour wrote:also fairly sure that theres daytalk based on the last two games

Wait, there was? I didn't see that in the rules and assumed that it always ran the same.

@Almost50: I don't know if you can answer this, but do scum have Daytalk?

Kelvin Smith · Tue Jul 11, 2017 9:49 am

In post 3401, RadiantCowbells wrote:I would say in my last 20 games I have posted green day lyrics in more of them than I haven't

But they aren't even really Green Day lyrics. They are Weird Al lyrics for the parody of a Green Day song. This lack of distinction is somehow even more suspicious. I admittedly might be paranoid, but this is still fucking sketchy.

Kelvin Smith · Tue Jul 11, 2017 1:31 pm

In post 3407, alban wrote:My top bet for scum right now will be Kelvin or RC.

Please explain how this makes sense. Go ahead. I'll wait.

Kelvin Smith · Tue Jul 11, 2017 1:32 pm

In post 3409, RadiantCowbells wrote:
In post 3406, Kelvin Smith wrote:
In post 3401, RadiantCowbells wrote:I would say in my last 20 games I have posted green day lyrics in more of them than I haven't
But they aren't even really Green Day lyrics. They are Weird Al lyrics for the parody of a Green Day song. This lack of distinction is somehow even more suspicious. I admittedly might be paranoid, but this is still fucking sketchy.
I'm not defending myself from this. If you think that I'm scum because I posted weird al lyrics, go ahead and vote me.

Or you could just let me know what you were playing at. You're not going to bravado me into dropping it, but I'm also not voting you just for a song quote.

Kelvin Smith · Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:13 pm

In post 3418, Vedith wrote:We lynch Titus today.
I said already that Math and Titus are always going at it apart from the 1 time they were both scum. And on this Titus accepted Math as town with such ease when Math claimed town.

Care to provide references for this? I haven't seen enough of them interacting in other games to form that sort of opinion on their relationship. But I'm also wary about making assumptions about the way two given people should interact with each other in any given game.

Kelvin Smith · Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:32 pm

In post 3423, RadiantCowbells wrote:
In post 3421, Kelvin Smith wrote:
In post 3409, RadiantCowbells wrote:
In post 3406, Kelvin Smith wrote:
In post 3401, RadiantCowbells wrote:I would say in my last 20 games I have posted green day lyrics in more of them than I haven't
But they aren't even really Green Day lyrics. They are Weird Al lyrics for the parody of a Green Day song. This lack of distinction is somehow even more suspicious. I admittedly might be paranoid, but this is still fucking sketchy.
I'm not defending myself from this. If you think that I'm scum because I posted weird al lyrics, go ahead and vote me.
Or you could just let me know what you were playing at. You're not going to bravado me into dropping it, but I'm also not voting you just for a song quote.
I was listening to Canadian Idiot on youtube and enjoying it so I posted some of the song lyrics as they came on. Which is usually what I'm doing when I post song lyrics!

In post 3424, RadiantCowbells wrote:Like you call it bravado but there's really nothing to say besides I felt like posting song lyrics so I did it.

Okay, fine. I don't like it coming from you, because you're the sort of player I could see a trick like that coming from, but I accept that the culture of the site allows for that sort of posting.

Kelvin Smith · Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:38 am

In post 3430, alban wrote:As a rejoinder to what I said and RC's response to that, I agree..Titus can't be trusted.

There's no daytalk. Phew! Imagine if there was indeed daytalk.

I think scumteam now has a fairly decent idea about which night each of the cops and docs are assigned to.

I am sorry I don't have much anything to add.

Posts like this (and pretty much all of his posts just don't feel genuine to me. Someone explain a better vote right now.

VOTE: alban

@Titus: What is it that you want to do right now?

Kelvin Smith · Wed Jul 12, 2017 3:48 am

In post 3432, Titus wrote:*grumbles* I forgot Giga was the one person assigned to not check a doctor. *grumbles*

To be fair, even if that weren't the case, it was a good check. It seemed like yesterday, you were getting ready to string him up for non-compliance today. Also, anybody who opposed the Math wagon is definitely worthy of Cop scrutiny. I'm not saying that both other scum definitely opposed the wagon, but given the intense resistance we encountered on it, I'd say that it wouldn't be a stretch to think they might have been.

Kelvin Smith · Wed Jul 12, 2017 5:22 am

In post 3434, Titus wrote:Nope but it's equally not a stretch that Math was a planned bus.

Is it though? I mean, if town were actually the ones opposing the Math lynch, why the hell would they not just turn around and go with you on the Navy lynch? Especially if Navy is scum, as you've been saying? They tried to derail a potential bus on a lurker by bussing on a player that the town (especially you, a vocal and influential player) opposed? Nah, that doesn't pass the smell test.

I feel like it would be fucking ridiculous to claim that there isn't scum among you, Vedith, and alban. Considering Vedith is confirmed town, that means we pretty much must lynch either you or alban. Of you two, I think that alban is more likely to be scum. But I could honestly see it go either way or even both ways.

Kelvin Smith · Wed Jul 12, 2017 5:40 am

In post 3442, Gamma Emerald wrote:
In post 3441, Kelvin Smith wrote:
In post 3434, Titus wrote:Nope but it's equally not a stretch that Math was a planned bus.
Is it though? I mean, if town were actually the ones opposing the Math lynch, why the hell would they not just turn around and go with you on the Navy lynch? Especially if Navy is scum, as you've been saying? They tried to derail a potential bus on a lurker by bussing on a player that the town (especially you, a vocal and influential player) opposed? Nah, that doesn't pass the smell test.

I feel like it would be fucking ridiculous to claim that there isn't scum among you, Vedith, and alban. Considering Vedith is confirmed town, that means we pretty much must lynch either you or alban. Of you two, I think that alban is more likely to be scum. But I could honestly see it go either way or even both ways.
What? How does that "Vedith, Titus, Alban" theory work?

To be clear, because it seems like people aren't understanding me, I'm saying it can't be Vedith anymore. I was only listing the people that were actively resisting the Math wagon. That means it's reasonable to suspect that at least one Mafia member was in that group.

If the lynch was an easy one, then a hard bus on Math would be a reasonable assumption. But for the remaining scum team to actively push a difficult bus when there was an easy bus/mislynch on the table with Navy just doesn't really make that much sense. To me that says that Navy probably isn't scum and that alban and/or Titus probably is scum. Of the two, neither honestly looks great to me. Titus is looking worse and worse, but I don't like that alban refused to cast a useful vote yesterday. That's why I could see alban/Navy as a scumteam.

Kelvin Smith · Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:06 am

In post 3445, Gamma Emerald wrote:Well then based on that who would be their most likely partners?

I'd be careful of trying too hard to speculate the entire scum team. It might not seem this way to anybody else, but I don't want to get bogged down by my own pet theories and then not be able to think outside of that range. Sure, I could try to speculate on direct interactions, but there are many possible explanations for those things. The more broad concept here is what I want to concern myself with, which is that scum between Titus and alban is likely.

With that said, I can understand that team plausibility might be important to some people, so I'll just point out a couple quick possible partners. Keep in mind, this is not a complete list, just ones that seem reasonable off the top of my head. Keep in mind that the scum team could be unlikely combinations and my theory on scum opposing the Math lynch could be wrong. It's always best to work with that in mind.

alban: Titus, Navy
Titus: alban, RadiantCowbells

Kelvin Smith · Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:16 am

In post 3446, Titus wrote:@Kelvin, we almost for certain know Vedith is town (it's b.a.r.d.).

I think it's fair to say that it's 100%. Unless there is some townie essentially gamethrowing by hanging onto a fake Doc claim for the entire game, there is 100% certainly scum in the Doctor pool. Likewise, unless gigabyteTroubadour is essentially gamethrowing as town here, then it is 100% impossible for them to be lying about Vedith being town. As long as we operate under these two very safe assumptions, it is fair to say that it is effectively 100% likely that Vedith is town. To say it with anything less than absolute certainty on this is suspicious to me, because it looks like trying to set yourself up for some Lylo scenario where you can try to push his mislynch over your own lynch, if things get hairy.

In post 3446, Titus wrote:I am town.

Yeah, just repeating your alleged alignment over and over again isn't going to work on me. Try something else.

Kelvin Smith · Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:41 am

In post 3452, Gamma Emerald wrote:You say you don't want to let your theories limit your perspective but I'm pretty sure that's what happened for quite a bit of yesterday? I'm guessing you're just trying to improve but I'm like "uhhh what" a bit when reading that sentence.

Hence "It might not seem this way to anybody else." If you stop and think about it though, it was as true then as it is now. I don't think I ever said that Math was 100% definitively scum. I always allowed for the possibility that they were a mislynch, no matter how unlikely it seemed. But I went with it because it still seemed like a strategically superior move and nobody ever managed to produce a compelling argument that it wasn't a solid strategy. In addition, nobody was able to tell me why Math was a bad lynch and why Navy was a good lynch. And now that we have the Math scum flip, it suggests to me that there is a good chance that Navy would actually have been a very bad lynch, unless either Titus or alban are scum. Here's how I think Navy could be scum with one of them:

Spoiler: Navy/Titus

Spoiler: Navy/alban

That said, I should again stress that I'm not saying that Navy is definitely scum. In fact, I think it's less likely at this point. But this is how I think a scenario where Navy is scum seems likely to be possible.

Kelvin Smith · Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:43 am

In post 3454, Vedith wrote:Titus, answer us this.
Are you a day 4 doc?

If no, we lynch here today.
If yes, we don't and I can check someone tonight, and if I die then Titus is scum.

It will give us 2 confirmed town tomorrow, or a confirmed scum with the possibility of lynching a scum today.

Vedith, are you claiming Night 4 Cop here? I'm a Night 4 Doc, so I'll gladly protect you tonight.

Kelvin Smith · Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:47 am

In post 3456, alban wrote:PS. Kelvin, it's better if you stop interacting with me. I know your immediate response will be to tear this post apart, but I am sure there's nothing you haven't already said, so keep away.

Sorry, that's not going to happen. I won't respond to it for a little bit, because it's a long post and I'm in class (good thing I'm so good at the subject or I'd have to pay attention). That post seems long enough to take me an hour or two of writing, so it'll have to wait until I can give it my full attention.

Kelvin Smith · Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:52 am

In post 3465, Titus wrote:
In post 3463, Kelvin Smith wrote:
In post 3454, Vedith wrote:Titus, answer us this.
Are you a day 4 doc?

If no, we lynch here today.
If yes, we don't and I can check someone tonight, and if I die then Titus is scum.

It will give us 2 confirmed town tomorrow, or a confirmed scum with the possibility of lynching a scum today.
Vedith, are you claiming Night 4 Cop here? I'm a Night 4 Doc, so I'll gladly protect you tonight.
I am a night 4 doc.

Excellent. You're on me tonight. If I die, we lynch you tomorrow. If Vedith dies, we lynch me tomorrow. Other than that, we can lynch based on Vedith's results.

Kelvin Smith · Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:55 am

In post 3466, RadiantCowbells wrote:I don't think that it's navy/titus but something to keep in mind there is that there are confirmed scum in the docs

and like I said Navy's play sort of resembled bussed!Navy from a previous game

so lynching Navy solves the 1 doc in the docs issue and allows Math/Titus to townblock the remainder of the game

I'm not accusing you of plagiarizing me, but just to be clear, that the thing I just said earlier for why Titus and Navy could be a team.

Kelvin Smith · Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:58 am

In post 3470, RadiantCowbells wrote:
In post 3468, Kelvin Smith wrote:
In post 3465, Titus wrote:
In post 3463, Kelvin Smith wrote:
In post 3454, Vedith wrote:Titus, answer us this.
Are you a day 4 doc?

If no, we lynch here today.
If yes, we don't and I can check someone tonight, and if I die then Titus is scum.

It will give us 2 confirmed town tomorrow, or a confirmed scum with the possibility of lynching a scum today.
Vedith, are you claiming Night 4 Cop here? I'm a Night 4 Doc, so I'll gladly protect you tonight.
I am a night 4 doc.
Excellent. You're on me tonight. If I die, we lynch you tomorrow. If Vedith dies, we lynch me tomorrow. Other than that, we can lynch based on Vedith's results.
I'm pretty sure that Titus should be on Gamma Emerald to guarantee the cop result. If he's town scum would just shoot him and waste both results.

This is only a good idea if Gamma claims that he Cops tonight. We're out of Doc shots tonight, so her protecting me is a better play, because scum can kill Gamma Night 5 anyway if he doesn't activate tonight.

Kelvin Smith · Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:04 am

In post 3471, Titus wrote:
In post 3468, Kelvin Smith wrote:
In post 3465, Titus wrote:
In post 3463, Kelvin Smith wrote:
In post 3454, Vedith wrote:Titus, answer us this.
Are you a day 4 doc?

If no, we lynch here today.
If yes, we don't and I can check someone tonight, and if I die then Titus is scum.

It will give us 2 confirmed town tomorrow, or a confirmed scum with the possibility of lynching a scum today.
Vedith, are you claiming Night 4 Cop here? I'm a Night 4 Doc, so I'll gladly protect you tonight.
I am a night 4 doc.
Excellent. You're on me tonight. If I die, we lynch you tomorrow. If Vedith dies, we lynch me tomorrow. Other than that, we can lynch based on Vedith's results.
Why shouldn't I just heal Vedith and have a hypothetical scumteam in the dark where you would heal?

Seems pointless. If they are in the dark, they are probably just going to kill me. I think it's fair to say that at this point, the town is more certain that I am town than that you are. Because of that, it's better that you have a chance to die tonight than that I have a chance to die. Here, we can even validate that.

@Everybody: If anybody thinks Titus is more likely to be town than I am, please say so.

Kelvin Smith · Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:08 am

In post 3475, alban wrote:
In post 3464, Kelvin Smith wrote:
In post 3456, alban wrote:PS. Kelvin, it's better if you stop interacting with me. I know your immediate response will be to tear this post apart, but I am sure there's nothing you haven't already said, so keep away.
Sorry, that's not going to happen. I won't respond to it for a little bit, because it's a long post and I'm in class (good thing I'm so good at the subject or I'd have to pay attention). That post seems long enough to take me an hour or two of writing, so it'll have to wait until I can give it my full attention.
Arghhh
Why are you so persistent man? Why can't you keep quiet? At least regarding my posts? I am tired of your non-stop shitting on my posts. Everyone has got your point. Loud and clear. I am a scum.

Why? Because you are a player in this game. I'm not just going to completely ignore the posts of one player in the game because I think they might be scum. That's just bad play. I might put less stock in what you say, sure, but that doesn't mean I don't consider it. If you are town, then I might still be able to glean things from you. And if you're scum, I can better articulate and demonstrate why by responding to what you're saying.

Kelvin Smith · Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:26 am

In post 3477, Vedith wrote:Gamma where ever
Me Gamma
Kelvin me
Titus Gamma

But I'm open to suggestions.

If Gamma claims Night 4 Cop and we lynch scum today

Titus on Vedith
Vedith on Gamma
Kelvin on Gamma
Gamma on anyone of his choosing (do not announce)

It's like this because the only way Vedith dies is if Titus is scum, so Vedith can't die without Titus revealing herself.

Gamma claims Night 4 Cop and we don't lynch scum today

Kelvin on Vedith
Vedith on Gamma
Titus on Gamma
Gamma on anyone of his choosing (do not announce)

It's like this because Vedith's life is too important here to leave in the hands of Titus. And if Vedith does die, you guys would know that I'm scum, which would be very valuable to the town. Also, Gamma dying would reveal that Titus is scum.

Kelvin Smith · Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:38 am

In post 3485, alban wrote:
In post 3482, RadiantCowbells wrote:if we get a town flip in the docs target me no wifom. inno on me would confirm the remaining 2 docs as both scum.
if we get a scum flip it's probably better to look for a guilty.
Wait, let's go over this.
How does an innocent you make me guilty? Can you explain?

I'll see what I can come up with. I'm starting to see how we can basically lock everything down by Day 5, but there are a lot of scenarios to consider to understand why it will be locked.

Ideally, I'd like to take the time to figure out if it is actually impossible for scum to win at this point. If it is, then I'll lay out an argument for why scum should just concede at this point. I will, of course, include scenarios where I am scum, because otherwise people will assume I'm trying to pull a fast one.

Kelvin Smith · Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:47 am

In post 3490, RadiantCowbells wrote:
In post 3489, Kelvin Smith wrote:
In post 3485, alban wrote:
In post 3482, RadiantCowbells wrote:if we get a town flip in the docs target me no wifom. inno on me would confirm the remaining 2 docs as both scum.
if we get a scum flip it's probably better to look for a guilty.
Wait, let's go over this.
How does an innocent you make me guilty? Can you explain?
I'll see what I can come up with. I'm starting to see how we can basically lock everything down by Day 5, but there are a lot of scenarios to consider to understand why it will be locked.

Ideally, I'd like to take the time to figure out if it is actually impossible for scum to win at this point. If it is, then I'll lay out an argument for why scum should just concede at this point. I will, of course, include scenarios where I am scum, because otherwise people will assume I'm trying to pull a fast one.
Let's not get into this. I've mapped out possibilities and it's not autowin, even if Gamma is town.
All you're going to do by talking about this is make it way easier for scum to figure out what to do.

Sure, you say that. And perhaps you're right, but I'll judge that myself. If, after analyzing the data, I can't find a certain win, I won't say anything. But if I can find a certain win, then I'm going to point it out. If the game is a foregone conclusion, then we might as well conclude it.

Kelvin Smith · Wed Jul 12, 2017 11:13 am

UNVOTE: alban

This should absolutely still be the lynch. I just want a few hours to discuss things more and don't want scum, overzealous town, or alban to quickhammer.

Kelvin Smith · Wed Jul 12, 2017 3:10 pm

Well, I was able to conceive of scenarios where we could still lose, even if we lynch scum today, so I guess I won't go too deeply into that.

VOTE: alban

I'm very comfortable with the plans I've posted. Just to reiterate:

In post 3484, Kelvin Smith wrote:
If Gamma claims Night 4 Cop and we lynch scum today

Titus on Vedith
Vedith on Gamma
Kelvin on Gamma
Gamma on anyone of his choosing (do not announce)

It's like this because the only way Vedith dies is if Titus is scum, so Vedith can't die without Titus revealing herself.

Gamma claims Night 4 Cop and we don't lynch scum today

Kelvin on Vedith
Vedith on Gamma
Titus on Gamma
Gamma on anyone of his choosing (do not announce)

It's like this because Vedith's life is too important here to leave in the hands of Titus. And if Vedith does die, you guys would know that I'm scum, which would be very valuable to the town. Also, Gamma dying would reveal that Titus is scum.

Feel free to hammer, giga.

Kelvin Smith · Wed Jul 12, 2017 3:13 pm

If I should die today, remember that it still might not be Navy, Titus is worth looking into, and don't just assume RC is town. I still think all three could be scum contenders, so don't get complacent.

Kelvin Smith · Wed Jul 12, 2017 3:15 pm

In post 3514, gigabyteTroubadour wrote:uh do we care about a navy replacement

I've PMed Almost50. He's been looking for one to no avail. We'll just have to keep waiting for now. If Gamma checks her, we'll know. Or if he finds scum elsewhere and alban flips scum, we'll still know.

Kelvin Smith · Wed Jul 12, 2017 3:32 pm

In post 3517, Titus wrote:Why don't we lynch Navy? Saves almost the hassle and reveals a lot.

VOTE: Navy

After this post, I'm prepared to call Titus scum if alban flips scum.

Kelvin Smith · Wed Jul 12, 2017 5:53 pm

Hey, Titus, if you're town here, do me a favor and hammer alban already.

Kelvin Smith · Wed Jul 12, 2017 5:56 pm

In post 3528, alban wrote:When I flip town, look at my wagon, especially Kelvin. Bloody moron.

Yeah, let's all look at the one guy that literally nobody thinks is scum... You know, it's technically solid advice, even if it is incorrect here. Always be wary of the ones you least suspect.

Kelvin Smith · Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:13 pm

In post 3535, Titus wrote:
In post 3531, Kelvin Smith wrote:Hey, Titus, if you're town here, do me a favor and hammer alban already.
Why would I do that when Navy is the better lynch? You haven't even addressed what we'd learn from that.

I assume we'd learn that alban is scum. What do you expect we'd learn from a Navy lynch?

Kelvin Smith · Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:22 pm

In post 3540, Titus wrote:
In post 3539, Kelvin Smith wrote:
In post 3535, Titus wrote:
In post 3531, Kelvin Smith wrote:Hey, Titus, if you're town here, do me a favor and hammer alban already.
Why would I do that when Navy is the better lynch? You haven't even addressed what we'd learn from that.
I assume we'd learn that alban is scum. What do you expect we'd learn from a Navy lynch?
Navy is scum, and if not that would be near conclusive proof alban is. We'd learn we couldn't get either lynch to go through because both Math and Navy were scum OR that basically we'd learn that 1 scum likely bussed and two weren't (Math and alban).

We also don't have to deal with Navy slot fucking the game in lylo.

Nah, alban has a better chance at being scum, by my reckoning. He keeps making all of those scum posts like Math did.

Kelvin Smith · Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:26 pm

In post 3542, alban wrote:Gamma, Giga, why are you voting for me? Reasons please.

giga's not. Yet.

Kelvin Smith · Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:29 pm

In post 3543, RadiantCowbells wrote:Not dealing with Navy slot in LyLo is the single compelling reason that you've given to lynch her.

You're not wrong. But I just feel like any wagon that both alban and Titus want is super likely to be a mislynch.

Kelvin Smith · Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:41 pm

Wish giga would get in here and hammer. We've got a solid plan, we've got a solid lynch, and we've got relatively little to worry about. I'm confident that Gamma will make the right call when it comes time for him to Cop somebody, so let's just get this Day over with.

Kelvin Smith · Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:44 pm

@Vedith: If upon checking Gamma, you discover he is scum, do me a favor and don't post until he posts his result.

Kelvin Smith · Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:50 pm

In post 3551, Gamma Emerald wrote:
In post 3550, Kelvin Smith wrote:@Vedith: If upon checking Gamma, you discover he is scum, do me a favor and don't post until he posts his result.
What would that do? If I were scum I'd know he'd get a guilty on me, so any play I make afterwards is made with that in mind. So what would a result from me accomplish?

Sure, it's ridiculously unlikely to be meaningful, but even so. It's possible that scum you is taking a gamble here that he's lying about checking tonight or something. And anything you say could still have some sort of value. Point is, it costs us nothing to do that and, at worst, gains us nothing of value.

Kelvin Smith · Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:51 pm

In post 3552, Gamma Emerald wrote:Like, the only thing that explains that logic fail is you forgot scum know how they will investigate.

You think inside the box too much sometimes, man.

Kelvin Smith · Thu Jul 13, 2017 3:08 am

In post 3558, alban wrote:
In post 3544, Kelvin Smith wrote:
In post 3542, alban wrote:Gamma, Giga, why are you voting for me? Reasons please.
giga's not. Yet.
Do not talk when not fucking talked to.

If you make a factually incorrect statement, I'm going to correct it. You're not going to make me shut up just because you don't like me.

Kelvin Smith · Thu Jul 13, 2017 3:14 am

In post 3560, Vedith wrote:
In post 3550, Kelvin Smith wrote:@Vedith: If upon checking Gamma, you discover he is scum, do me a favor and don't post until he posts his result.
Okay.

Also, if I do die (I really don't believe Kelvin is ever flipping scum) then only take Gamma's cop result with a pinch of salt.

Oh, it's definitely worth scrutiny if you die. But if you die, then that means Titus or I didn't do our job and one of us need to die (spoilers: it won't be me).

Kelvin Smith · Thu Jul 13, 2017 3:16 am

In post 3561, alban wrote:With so much fucking hatred around, I really want to self-vote.

Please feel free.

Kelvin Smith · Thu Jul 13, 2017 3:21 am

In post 3563, alban wrote:
In post 3562, gigabyteTroubadour wrote:Declaring intent

Like I said alban, your thought process in continuing to suspect kelvin as scum seems off and motivated by keeping the lynches you need to win around

Also what hatred? This is the least toxic I've seen this town be.

Will hammer after work, typing on an ancient iPad rn that deleted this entire post twice.
So my thought process is scummy, but his isn't.
What happens when I flip town?

Then I'm still not scum and we all collectively made an inferior decision, as human beings sometimes do.

Yeah, yeah, don't answer for others. Here's the thing though: you and Titus are painting this picture that RC and I are some sort of fiendish puppetmasters, pulling all the strings and bullying everyone else into the lynches we want. It's really not like that though. As it turns out, most of the town just agrees with the things that we are saying, either because we're making sense to them or because they have independently come to similar conclusions.

Kelvin Smith · Thu Jul 13, 2017 4:24 am

In post 3574, Titus wrote:No one disagrees with me on Navy being a disaster to have and antitown.

And I doubt anybody will ever disagree with that. But people just think that alban is more likely to be scum and they'd rather lynch scum.

In post 3574, Titus wrote:No one has given a reason beyond alban looks scummy, which is the Math lynch all over.

That's still not true. Like I said, there is almost certainly scum among you and alban. And I think we all think alban is the more likely between you and him.

In post 3574, Titus wrote:I wanted some assurances history wouldn't repeat itself Kelvin. If you can't see why after today, then we had a major failure to communicate.

I tried not to let history repeat itself. And for the most part, I think I was very successful. But Titus, I want you to consider two things:

1. We're allowed to think that you are wrong.

Every player except for Vedith, alban, and you yesterday supported a Math lynch over a Navy lynch (as evidenced by their votes). By your own theory of Navy being scum, that means, at most, one of those people voting Math were scum. Only you, Math, and Vedith voted Navy. And now, only you and alban are supporting the Navy lynch. This isn't because we're trying to shut you out, it's because we don't agree with you.

This was never my intent, but at this moment, it seems we've somehow organically formed some sort of townbloc. Unfortunately, it seems like you aren't a part of that townbloc right now. Perhaps you'd be interested in applying by hammering alban?

2. We're allowed to think you're scum.

Not all of us think you are scum. And I think even among those of us who do think you might be scum, nobody thinks it is a certainty. But even though I'm not certain that you are scum, it still gives me pause to trust your judgment. To my knowledge, you're all about townblocs, it seems like you are just sitting here repeatedly opposing the townbloc, and that is suspicious to me.

Kelvin Smith · Thu Jul 13, 2017 5:04 am

In post 3576, alban wrote:divide-and-rule

How do you figure? This town has never been so cohesive. Of all the active players, there are only two rogue player who aren't working together. And of the two of them (you), we're actively working against you, so that's not surprising.

Kelvin Smith · Thu Jul 13, 2017 5:55 am

In post 3578, alban wrote:Some funny translations from asshole language to english.
1. 'people think alban is more likely to be scum' - meaning when alban turns town, the person who said this need not be held accountable.
2. 'there is almost certainly a scum between you and alban' - meaning 'would you rather that we lynch you than alban?' classical hand-wringing.
3. 'there is almost certainly a scum between you and alban' - meaning when alban flips town, we will be on you.
4. 'this isn't because we are trying to shut you out' - it's now we vs. you (titus).
5. 'we've somehow organically formed some sort of townbloc' - and when alban flips town, we will have started a mini mafia game with 7 players and Day1. Coz we wouldn't know shit about who's who in that supposed townblock.
6. 'you'd be interested in applying by hammering alban?' - oh waait, not subtle anymore. join my crusade or else...
7. 'it seems like you are just sitting here repeatedly opposing the townbloc, and that is suspicious to me.' - i can see the future, can you? like i can predict who will be the lynch tomorrow.

1. Yeah, no shit. How are you going to hold one person responsible for something that everybody agrees on? That don't make no sense.

2. Or, you know, simple deduction.

3. Actually, Titus might actually look less bad if you flip town, because she's been resisting your lynch.

4. I mean, is that what that's saying? We're not trying to shut her out. But if we don't agree with her, then what do you want? "Nobody agrees with your ideas, but let's all do go with them anyway and see how they work out." Why would anybody ever do that?

5. Me, RC, giga, Gamma, and Vedith are in the townbloc. We're not just magically lost if you somehow flip town.

6. I mean, probably. If she continually resists lynches on scum, then we're probably going to make the assumption that she's scum. That seems pretty fair to me. If it turns out you're not scum, she's not going to get heat for not going along with it. It doesn't mean she might not still be scum, it just means that she's not scum for resisting your lynch.

7. I mean, it'll depend on the two Cop results. But yeah, I think there's a possibility that Titus will be the lynch tomorrow. Could be Navy though. We'll see how it plays out.

Kelvin Smith · Thu Jul 13, 2017 6:19 am

In post 3579, Titus wrote:
In post 3577, Kelvin Smith wrote:
In post 3576, alban wrote:divide-and-rule
How do you figure? This town has never been so cohesive. Of all the active players, there are only two rogue player who aren't working together. And of the two of them (you), we're actively working against you, so that's not surprising.
That's because it's not town cohesion. The copping of Gamma is ok because his result can be trusted I guess. I see the point in that. Yet, it does nothing towards solving the confirmed scum problem. Navy cannot remain. Almost everytime a lurker remains here, town loses. This is major buddying.

It's not town cohesion because...?

And a lurker is a problem, absolutely. But there are bigger fish to fry right now. We don't need to policy lynch a lurker when we've got strong scum candidates, like we have the past couple days.

In post 3579, Titus wrote:What do you think happens tomorrow? Navy lives and I get lynched because I "provide no utility" because I disagree. Navy gets to go on without making any contribution for dayphases.

No, you wouldn't be lynched for having no utility. You'd be lynched if we thought you had a good chance of being scum. What's so wrong about that? YOu've got to roll scum at some points Titus, so why is it wrong that we'd think you might be scum here?

In post 3579, Titus wrote:Your argument is circular. This is a good lynch because we agree. We agree because we are town. Because we are town, this is a good lynch. None of that tells me anything or why alban is a good lynch. It's waiving a popularity sign at me. Unless it's Navy/alban, then scum bussed Math.

Yes. Which is why it could be Navy/Alban. But it could also be you. Or it could possibly be RC, though I find that unlikely. Hell, one could even make the argument that it was giga or I. But it still means that most of the town agreed it was a good lynch.

And I'm not saying that town agreeing that a lynch is good makes the lynch good. Town agreeing that the lynch is good just means that town are more likely to be comfortable with the lynch. If we fuck up and lose, then at least we lost on our own terms. But if we succeed and win, then we won with a consensus.

Honestly, this turnaround is fucking incredible. After that absolutely venomous exchange I got in with Vedith yesterday, I'm pleasantly surprised that we've been able to work together and I've definitely come to respect him because of it. Before I joined this game, it was an inactive mess and I thought the town was in a terrible position. But now, I think we're on our way to an easy win. This game has actually become what I think Mafia should be. Like, I'm even starting to rethink my stance on reads after everything I've seen here. They might not be completely useless after all.

Kelvin Smith · Thu Jul 13, 2017 6:26 am

In post 3584, Titus wrote:
In post 3581, Kelvin Smith wrote:4. I mean, is that what that's saying? We're not trying to shut her out. But if we don't agree with her, then what do you want? "Nobody agrees with your ideas, but let's all do go with them anyway and see how they work out." Why would anybody ever do that?

5. Me, RC, giga, Gamma, and Vedith are in the townbloc. We're not just magically lost if you somehow flip town.
Except no one actually disagrees with me on Navy but RC who isn't town.

I disagree that Navy is scum. Everybody agrees that Navy is useless.

In post 3584, Titus wrote:No one provides a reason for alban being scum.

You were saying that about Math yesterday and you are doing the same about alban now. Do you actually read the game? Because people are fucking saying these things you say they aren't saying.

In post 3584, Titus wrote:No one disagrees on Navy being a liability. You're just trying to cajole me into lynching Alban.

No, I think we all agree that Navy is a liability. But we also all agree that alban is scum. And I'll lynch scum over a liability any day of the week.

Kelvin Smith · Thu Jul 13, 2017 7:41 am

Titus, if you're town, I truly am sorry that you feel that way. But this is the most beautiful game of Mafia I've ever seen and almost (but not quite) makes me reconsider retiring after my current games end. From my perspective, I can't see how you could say otherwise, other than because you don't agree with the conclusions we've come to.

Kelvin Smith · Thu Jul 13, 2017 7:50 am

Titus, is there any chance that alban is scum here? I really want to know your opinion on this. I don't mean based on anybody else's arguments. I'm asking if you think that there is a chance that alban is scum in this game. And if you do, could you put a percentage on that likelihood?

Kelvin Smith · Thu Jul 13, 2017 8:10 am

In post 3604, RadiantCowbells wrote:Kelvin you're protecting Vedith right?

That's supposed to depend on the alban flip.

Titus, are you sticking to the plan tonight?

Kelvin Smith · Thu Jul 13, 2017 8:11 am

In post 3484, Kelvin Smith wrote:
If Gamma claims Night 4 Cop and we lynch scum today

Titus on Vedith
Vedith on Gamma
Kelvin on Gamma
Gamma on anyone of his choosing (do not announce)

It's like this because the only way Vedith dies is if Titus is scum, so Vedith can't die without Titus revealing herself.

Gamma claims Night 4 Cop and we don't lynch scum today

Kelvin on Vedith
Vedith on Gamma
Titus on Gamma
Gamma on anyone of his choosing (do not announce)

It's like this because Vedith's life is too important here to leave in the hands of Titus. And if Vedith does die, you guys would know that I'm scum, which would be very valuable to the town. Also, Gamma dying would reveal that Titus is scum.

Kelvin Smith · Thu Jul 13, 2017 8:53 am

In post 3608, Vedith wrote:
In post 3605, Kelvin Smith wrote:That's supposed to depend on the alban flip.

Titus, are you sticking to the plan tonight?
I thought you were protecting me regardless?

Not if Titus agrees to stick to the plan.

If alban flips scum, then there is only one scum left. That means that the only way you'd die with Titus protecting you is if Titus is scum. So me protecting you is unnecessary.

On the other hand, if alban flips town, then I must protect you, because if Titus was scum, she could sacrifice herself to kill you tonight. If you died tonight, we'd know Titus was scum, if she was supposed to be protecting you, but we wouldn't know her partner. And if we weren't on the right track, we'd be in a pinch. That's why it's gotta be me on you if alban is town. And if you die, then everybody would know that I'm scum, which would be very good information for the town, since I'm unsuspected.

Kelvin Smith · Thu Jul 13, 2017 8:59 am

In post 3609, Kelvin Smith wrote:If alban flips scum, then there is only one scum left. That means that the only way you'd die with Titus protecting you is if Titus is scum. So me protecting you is unnecessary.

Upon further thought, we could theoretically flip it. If alban flips scum and Titus was assigned to Gamma, then the only way Gamma dies is if Titus is scum. So I guess it's fine regardless.

Current Plan (regardless of alban's flip)

Kelvin on Vedith
Vedith on Gamma
Titus on Gamma
Gamma on anyone of his choosing (do not announce)

Kelvin Smith · Thu Jul 13, 2017 9:23 am

In post 3612, Titus wrote:
In post 3610, Kelvin Smith wrote:
In post 3609, Kelvin Smith wrote:If alban flips scum, then there is only one scum left. That means that the only way you'd die with Titus protecting you is if Titus is scum. So me protecting you is unnecessary.
Upon further thought, we could theoretically flip it. If alban flips scum and Titus was assigned to Gamma, then the only way Gamma dies is if Titus is scum. So I guess it's fine regardless.

Current Plan (regardless of alban's flip)

Kelvin on Vedith
Vedith on Gamma
Titus on Gamma
Gamma on anyone of his choosing (do not announce)
Sure. I'll do this.

It works if we lynch Navy too though but I get the feeling Navy gets to coast.

I assume that if alban flips town, Gamma will at least consider Copping Navy. I assume he'll also consider Copping either you, RC, or giga (probably in that order of likelihood). Hell, he might even consider checking me (though that seems like the height of wastefulness). Point is, I think Navy might not be scum, so I don't think that a policy lynch is the best move here.

Kelvin Smith · Thu Jul 13, 2017 10:14 am

In post 3615, Titus wrote:
In post 3613, Kelvin Smith wrote:
In post 3612, Titus wrote:
In post 3610, Kelvin Smith wrote:
In post 3609, Kelvin Smith wrote:If alban flips scum, then there is only one scum left. That means that the only way you'd die with Titus protecting you is if Titus is scum. So me protecting you is unnecessary.
Upon further thought, we could theoretically flip it. If alban flips scum and Titus was assigned to Gamma, then the only way Gamma dies is if Titus is scum. So I guess it's fine regardless.

Current Plan (regardless of alban's flip)

Kelvin on Vedith
Vedith on Gamma
Titus on Gamma
Gamma on anyone of his choosing (do not announce)
Sure. I'll do this.

It works if we lynch Navy too though but I get the feeling Navy gets to coast.
I assume that if alban flips town, Gamma will at least consider Copping Navy. I assume he'll also consider Copping either you, RC, or giga (probably in that order of likelihood). Hell, he might even consider checking me (though that seems like the height of wastefulness). Point is, I think Navy might not be scum, so I don't think that a policy lynch is the best move here.
Why?

Why is alban who has been trying scummy? but Navy who can't even post a prod dodge while posting elsewhere town?

Because the way that he has been trying is scummy.

Navy's lurking could be unrelated to alignment. I don't know if it is or not. What I do know is that everyone that I suspect to be scum wants to lynch Navy, so I don't want to.

Kelvin Smith · Thu Jul 13, 2017 10:48 am

In post 3617, Titus wrote:
In post 3616, Kelvin Smith wrote:
In post 3615, Titus wrote:
In post 3613, Kelvin Smith wrote:
In post 3612, Titus wrote:
In post 3610, Kelvin Smith wrote:
In post 3609, Kelvin Smith wrote:If alban flips scum, then there is only one scum left. That means that the only way you'd die with Titus protecting you is if Titus is scum. So me protecting you is unnecessary.
Upon further thought, we could theoretically flip it. If alban flips scum and Titus was assigned to Gamma, then the only way Gamma dies is if Titus is scum. So I guess it's fine regardless.

Current Plan (regardless of alban's flip)

Kelvin on Vedith
Vedith on Gamma
Titus on Gamma
Gamma on anyone of his choosing (do not announce)
Sure. I'll do this.

It works if we lynch Navy too though but I get the feeling Navy gets to coast.
I assume that if alban flips town, Gamma will at least consider Copping Navy. I assume he'll also consider Copping either you, RC, or giga (probably in that order of likelihood). Hell, he might even consider checking me (though that seems like the height of wastefulness). Point is, I think Navy might not be scum, so I don't think that a policy lynch is the best move here.
Why?

Why is alban who has been trying scummy? but Navy who can't even post a prod dodge while posting elsewhere town?
Because the way that he has been trying is scummy.

Navy's lurking could be unrelated to alignment. I don't know if it is or not. What I do know is that everyone that I suspect to be scum wants to lynch Navy, so I don't want to.
Your reads are circular. You suspect those who disagree with you, so when they point out scummy behavior you dismiss it.

Navy provides zero benefit to this town alive.

We should wait to get a replacement if you think that slot is town. Otherwise, the only protown move here is to vanish.

Seems like our best bet here is to agree to disagree on this.

Kelvin Smith · Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:41 am

In post 3619, Almost50 wrote:
Dunnstral replaces Navy. Effective immediately.

Well that's that solved. Thanks, Dunnstral!

Kelvin Smith · Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:47 am

Dunnstral, feel free to hammer alban.

Kelvin Smith · Thu Jul 13, 2017 11:59 am

In post 3625, Vedith wrote:Math flipped scum and claim cop, so for me to be scum, a doc would also have to be scum.

Just to clean this statement up, this is the logical sequence:

1. giga gave an Innocent on Vedith.

2.There must be scum in the claimed Doctors (rules state a maximum 6 Docs or Cops).

3. That means a maximum of one living Cop claim is scum.

4. Any Cop that gives an innocent on another Cop must be telling the truth, regardless of their alignment.

5. Vedith must be town.

Kelvin Smith · Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:01 pm

In post 3625, Vedith wrote:Our plan is for the docs to protect me and Gamma (Titus on Gamma / Kelvin on me if Alban town, and flipped around is Alban scum), I check Gamma and Gamma checks where ever. Maybe give us 3 confirmed. Or give us scum confirmed

Just as a reminder, the plan has changed. I am now always on you and Titus is always on Gamma.

Kelvin Smith · Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:04 pm

Titus, now that Navy is no longer a liability as a lurker, are you ready to hammer?

Kelvin Smith · Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:07 pm

To be clear, I'm just trying to rush the hammer so that we don't get an unnecessarily long Twilight. I just want the Night to end quickly so we can maintain our momentum.

@Almost50: If everyone with a Night action agrees to it, can we end the Night early?

Kelvin Smith · Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:13 pm

Thanks.

Kelvin Smith · Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:14 pm

alban, wanna come in here and scumclaim like Math did?

Kelvin Smith · Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:17 am

We were wrong on virtually every count? Yeah, that sounds about right. I suspected that I was a fool for daring to trust reads. It's clearly for the best that I stop playing.

Kelvin Smith · Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:43 am

In post 3920, MathBlade wrote:You were right on me

Yeah, but were we right for the right reasons? And even if we were, as a town, we were still wrong on almost everything else.

Kelvin Smith · Tue Jul 18, 2017 8:51 pm

Turns out those "Green Day" lyrics were bullshit after all. What a fucking surprise...