Open 692 - Two-fold Matrix6 (Game Over)

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

ça va?

VOTE: PMysterious

i remember you

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

VOTE: Aristophanes

Solve this game for me so I can keep relaxing on this great day.

Deal!

Realeo and Oldwino are scum.

Realeo came in and didn't vote, instead trying to make friends by saying hi and waving. Plus, who uses that ugly green emoji ever!? That's scum right there!

Oldwino voting for a slot that hasn't confirmed yet is like actually Scum 101, and they also copied the greeting of Realeo, as if they saw it work and decided it was a good idea.

If it's not Oldwino, WhyMafia is scum for that easy sheep of a wagon while trying to look original.

The scum are within those three.

#Solved!

So, how about you vote with me?
VOTE: Realeo

What are your plans for the day? How is it that you are choosing to relax?

damn. thats the best case presented since the o.j.simpson case.

VOTE: realeo

Hi all!

VOTE: Judge Joseph Dredd

Guys! I think I found scum! He spoke French! Then Ari asked him a question and he still never responded!

in this game is ask the questions
I AM THE LAW

Stealing Pagetop too! XD

stealing is against the law
means u r scum

VOTE: Aris

je suis heureux comme un lapin dans un jardin de carottes

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

this game is going too fast for me to follow
almost a post an hour is way too much is it not?
by this rate we should be out of rvs in day 3 or 4

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

VOTE: davesaz

need the replacement to talk more

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

VOTE: davesaz

need the replacement to talk more

What would a vote on that accomplish?

just about a little more than your question actually.

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

I have this as scum. That vote literally does nothing. And complaints are just complaints. Back it up with action, his vote on Dave barely does that.

so what would ur majesty consider action if not a vote? enlighten me with ur wisdom

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

I have this as scum. That vote literally does nothing. And complaints are just complaints. Back it up with action, his vote on Dave barely does that.

so what would ur majesty consider action if not a vote? enlighten me with ur wisdom

Call him out for it once he posts again. No need to take such an aggressive tone, I tend to lose interest in the game when people are unnecessarily aggressive.

and u call my response aggressive? sheesh i must've typed something in invisible ink

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

whymafia 4 realz
i dont see u doin anything productive
ur just showing off and yabbing to appear active and posting
tell me if u have said anything that is meaningful so far

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

your opinion of Realeo so far?

i kinda dig him so far

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

whymafia 4 realz
i dont see u doin anything productive
ur just showing off and yabbing to appear active and posting
tell me if u have said anything that is meaningful so far

Who do you see as doing meaningful things?

bingo
nobodys doing anything meaningful
i think i have resigned myself to a game of russian roulette
the problem is scum know who they are so they have an informed kill at night while we will just randomly lynch someone before the deadline and without getting info from it too

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

ok. let me try to make myself look busy while doing absolutely nothing myself. here goes

Hey everyone!

Don't mind me, just gonna plop myself down on the comfiest looking wagon.

VOTE: Realeo

lets not read and just push. after all voting an existing wagon serves to hide me in the crowd rather than actually standing out and saying something different

Wait? Those thing are French? I thought Judge is having an affair with Aristo and those are some kind of safe word.

Anyway. Me gonna say something that will help us exit RVS.

Guys, please stop voting me. It's L-3

Is that the thing?

I'll unvote you if you tell me who I should put my vote on instead.

tell me where to switch to. im the best sheep youll ever have.

Wait? Those thing are French? I thought Judge is having an affair with Aristo and those are some kind of safe word.

Anyway. Me gonna say something that will help us exit RVS.

Guys, please stop voting me. It's L-3

Is that the thing?

I'll unvote you if you tell me who I should put my vote on instead.

Hah! I know someone can't refuse to react to my statement. Now we can exit RVS.

If you say

I'll unvote you if you tell me

, are you saying

I'm actually scumreading you, Realeo. The only way I'm not voting you is if someone is scummier

?

I'm tempted to classify that statement as continuation of RVS, but

is that the thing?

implies you are actually serious with your statement.

My vote on you is RVS, I am not scumreading you.

However, I was serious when I said I'd vote someone else if you told me who. I thought that would get some reactions from people and help exit RVS.

The offer still stands, by the way. I'm leaning towards either PMysterious or Draynth, what do you think?

Did you not see the preceding message

I did, but that's what stood out to me. Trying to get out of the RV phase is fine and dandy (as we need to eventually), but he's at L-3 at the Random Vote phase, and he seems all defensive about it. It's a little weird to me.

What if he was faking being defensive to get reactions? I feel like starting a statement with "I'm going to say something to help get us out of RVS" makes his intent pretty clear. You think he is scum getting defensive from fear of being lynched and getting out of RVS is just his excuse?

no comment. actually i do have some comments but that would defy the purpose of this post which is

look busy but say nothing

My safeword is Pamplemousse

That and grenouille are two of my favourite words to say

Wait? Those thing are French? I thought Judge is having an affair with Aristo and those are some kind of safe word.

Anyway. Me gonna say something that will help us exit RVS.

Guys, please stop voting me. It's L-3

Is that the thing?

I'll unvote you if you tell me who I should put my vote on instead.

Hah! I know someone can't refuse to react to my statement. Now we can exit RVS.

If you say

I'll unvote you if you tell me

, are you saying

I'm actually scumreading you, Realeo. The only way I'm not voting you is if someone is scummier

?

I'm tempted to classify that statement as continuation of RVS, but

is that the thing?

implies you are actually serious with your statement.

My vote on you is RVS, I am not scumreading you.

However, I was serious when I said I'd vote someone else if you told me who. I thought that would get some reactions from people and help exit RVS.

The offer still stands, by the way. I'm leaning towards either PMysterious or Draynth, what do you think?

You gonna give reasons for either of these or are you happy enough to just try skate by?

I am not going to give reasons at this time but I'm certainly not happy to just skate by.

Offer me again when BTD replaces Gamma. Too early to cast vote without full team.

You aren't reading.

Oh I thought that was a reference to something else entirely haha

What did you think it was a reference to?

Oh. Gamma already replaced out? Dave replaced in.

Ok, me take the offer.

VOTE: Pymestrious

I like it.

VOTE: PMysterious

I believe that's L-3. Can everyone on this wagon so far confirm that their vote isn't RVS?

im not gonna give reason for quoting a wall and saying nothing either. i just want my posts to look big so people will skip them and town read me for them

I'm not trying to dodge your question Rory I was just hoping Draynth would respond first.

PMysterious, have you considered the possibility that Realeo was faking his defensiveness to get reactions out of people? Also if you don't mind me asking, how many games have you played before? I mean no offense I just want to gauge your stances off of experience.

Draynth, what is your stance on my reply to you? Are you scumreading me?

everything i do is 100% genuine and everything everyone else does is fake

Okay cool. To answer your question Rory, nothing is wrong with Draynth besides a surface level cut and dry approach to scumhunting. Not interested in voting him though. He voted me in RVS for my RVS vote when I said I was just trying to plop myself on the comfiest wagon for it looking like I was coasting. I wanted to see how he would react to me saying I was interested in voting him without providing any context and his behaviour now lines up with what I expected in that he's not considering deeper intent. Leaning town.

PMysterious is a similar case and my opinion hinges a bit on his experience. It's weird to me that he seems to think scum is jumping on Realeos wagon while also thinking Realeos reaction was scummy and I'm not sure he is entirely comprehending the reaction test angle. Reads to me like genuine misunderstanding over a scummy contradiction, though.

Realeo

- any reason for the Ari vote besides a gut feel? And could you answer his/Raya's questions please?

Raya

- I voted PMysterious because I told Realeo I'd vote for someone if he told me who and I'm a man of my word.

As for why I gave the options I did, it was because both slots were similar in that they were making surface level scumreads and I wanted to pressure one of them to read them while also getting a read on Realeo based on who he chose and why.

now let me say something silly and i bet these numbheads will let it slip. ftr im still saying lots of words which boil down to banter rather than scum hunting

note 4 l8r: where are the questions kantrip has been asking so far in order to move the game forward? or is him asking if someone considered the possibility of someone else faking their reaction count towards said questions that are meant to move the game forward?

Reads to me like genuine misunderstanding over a scummy contradiction, though.

I endorse this product.

Realeo - any reason for the Ari vote besides a gut feel?

There is something called from EpicMafia called fillering. It's a condition where scum are unable to fake scumhunting so he talk something else. Methink that is what happening.

Nah, I just don't post as scum. As it is I'm busy atm (Note my V/LA).

I'm here, but it's early so what would you actually like me to address?

This is WIFOM. I don't care to go off of your self-meta.

Do you have any scumreads at the moment?

the game is moving slower than a dead turtle and yet he wants someone else to have reads. ftr it wasnt until yesterday when i started forming some reads and yet nothing solid enough so far

Usually I'm complaining about posting going too fast, but in this case it's going too slow.

VOTE: PMysterious

Reasoning for this vote?

Okay cool. To answer your question Rory, nothing is wrong with Draynth besides a surface level cut and dry approach to scumhunting. Not interested in voting him though. He voted me in RVS for my RVS vote when I said I was just trying to plop myself on the comfiest wagon for it looking like I was coasting. I wanted to see how he would react to me saying I was interested in voting him without providing any context and his behaviour now lines up with what I expected in that he's not considering deeper intent. Leaning town.

PMysterious is a similar case and my opinion hinges a bit on his experience. It's weird to me that he seems to think scum is jumping on Realeos wagon while also thinking Realeos reaction was scummy and I'm not sure he is entirely comprehending the reaction test angle. Reads to me like genuine misunderstanding over a scummy contradiction, though.

Realeo

- any reason for the Ari vote besides a gut feel? And could you answer his/Raya's questions please?

Raya

- I voted PMysterious because I told Realeo I'd vote for someone if he told me who and I'm a man of my word.

As for why I gave the options I did, it was because both slots were similar in that they were making surface level scumreads and I wanted to pressure one of them to read them while also getting a read on Realeo based on who he chose and why.

I. Understand the misunderstanding from pm. But how do you explain the lack of questioning the wagon? And by that I mean any pressure on the people of the wagon?

You mean from PM's end? I completely agree, and again it hinges on his answer to my question about his experience. I could see his current stance being a townie who is genuinely confused and thinks that both possibilities exist without really knowing how to act on it, which is what I'm kind of leaning towards at the moment. However, I agree with you that if he thinks scum is on the wagon he should be questioning or pressuring those people. I dunno, it could go either way but it reads to me more like he's really unsure of his stances rather than fabricating them.

?
r u wondering why i put a question mark? r u curious to know the reason? r u getting excited? would you be happy if I told you?
it looks like he did as questions. if it ends with a question mark then it must be a question. right?
well thats exactly why i put so many question marks here. see? im asking lots of questions. am i not?

WhyMafia because of so few posts and those were empty. He voted Gamma and unvoted when questioned, voted Ari for no reason and questioned Judge's vote on Dave when I think Judge's vote made sense (getting Dave to participate).

When did I vote Ari? I was never questioned on my vote on Gamma? It was a joke vote/RVS banter. There is no point to vote on someone if they're inactive. And 1 vote on someone to pressure someone to post hardly ever works. If they go through D1 without posting hardly any stances, that's a cause for concern.

Judge - Complained game is moving too slowly, voted Dave to try to move things along which I was thinking of doing. Scum would let us wallow in RVS as long as possible.

I have this as scum. That vote literally does nothing. And complaints are just complaints. Back it up with action, his vote on Dave barely does that.

I agree that no one should get town cred for complaining about inactivity since it's very easy for anyone to do that and can be considered filler. However, I don't think the vote does literally nothing. What are your scumreads looking like right now? Do you think Judge is scum for complaining about activity and not doing much to fix it?

Okay cool. To answer your question Rory, nothing is wrong with Draynth besides a surface level cut and dry approach to scumhunting. Not interested in voting him though. He voted me in RVS for my RVS vote when I said I was just trying to plop myself on the comfiest wagon for it looking like I was coasting. I wanted to see how he would react to me saying I was interested in voting him without providing any context and his behaviour now lines up with what I expected in that he's not considering deeper intent. Leaning town.

PMysterious is a similar case and my opinion hinges a bit on his experience. It's weird to me that he seems to think scum is jumping on Realeos wagon while also thinking Realeos reaction was scummy and I'm not sure he is entirely comprehending the reaction test angle. Reads to me like genuine misunderstanding over a scummy contradiction, though.

Realeo

- any reason for the Ari vote besides a gut feel? And could you answer his/Raya's questions please?

Raya

- I voted PMysterious because I told Realeo I'd vote for someone if he told me who and I'm a man of my word.

As for why I gave the options I did, it was because both slots were similar in that they were making surface level scumreads and I wanted to pressure one of them to read them while also getting a read on Realeo based on who he chose and why.

Why did you pick Draynth to test his reaction here? Seems a little random to me.

I got the impression from his dislike of me not explaining myself that I would be able to get a read on him if I lumped him in there without reasoning and looked at his reaction/opinion of me afterwards. I did just that while also getting some insight on Realeo. Two birds, one stone.

Usually I'm complaining about posting going too fast, but in this case it's going too slow.

VOTE: PMysterious

Reasoning for this vote?

See who questions it.
See if it generates any commentary other than people questioning it.

I see. I take it you don't have any scum reads at this time?

i agree no one should be town read for anything they say or do but it goes without saying that im the towniest thing since since the word town was installed into english language

I disagree with the premise of oldwino's reads list. It's focused too much on activity and not enough on intent. This isn't indicative of his alignment, though.

whymafia 4 realz
i dont see u doin anything productive
ur just showing off and yabbing to appear active and posting
tell me if u have said anything that is meaningful so far

I will say that voting a slot that just replaced in because they "need to post more" is not exactly helping to progress the game. I'm not saying WhyMafia has necessarily done more, but I don't think that was his point either. What's your opinion of Realeo so far?

I will say that voting a slot that just replaced in because they "need to post more" is not exactly helping to progress the game but jumping on the largest wagon and then asking the one you voted whom to move to does
that makes perfect sense

Realeo seems like a cool guy so I'm going to mindlessly sheep him again.

VOTE: Aristophanes

and to prove it um sheeping again. baaaa. thats what i call progressing the game indeed

Looking back, maybe I was a bit overreactive, but I remember doing stuff very similar to what Realeo did when it came to pressure (even if it was RV), and everytime I ended up doing that, it ended up coming off as scummy, which is where most of my motive for questioning came from. Times have likely changed since then, and my timing was off, but I hope my motivation was made clear. I do not wish for anymore shenanigans based on this topic, and would much rather look into possible scum (other than Realeo).

Where are you looking at the moment?

what are u listening to right now?

I'm here, but it's early so what would you actually like me to address?

Things.

So helpful...

Realeo seems like a cool guy so I'm going to mindlessly sheep him again.

VOTE: Aristophanes

Do you actually have reads of your own?

Yes I do. Please answer my question to you.

i have reads but im better than u so you must comply to my divine demands. that or i actually dont but want to see how others are reading the game so that i can follow the flow

OK, caught up. I'm going out shortly, but some quick thoughts and questions:

I like the Ari wagon. Pretty much no content in his posts, and doesn't seem to be looking to accomplish anything. Has anybody played with him before? Is he normally this low-content?

I agree with my predesessor, Katnip pinged me really hard at first. I hate that "reaction test" shit. It's a tool that scum can use to justify scummy posting. However, a few things give me pause: I really like his later posts, and they appear to show genuine scumhunting. Although as has been pointed out, this is multiball. They also seem astute enough that it makes me believe that the "reaction test" could be legit and not just him covering his tracks. On the other hand, I also don't like, his interaction with Whymafia and Dredd, as mentioned below. I do like his reaction to Oldwino's reads and agree 100%. Still leaning scum, but less so than when I went back to re-read to compose this. @Katnip, your account is ~2 weeks old, but do you have prior Mafia experience?

My strongest SR is Whymafia. I've played with him before and I townread him very quickly (when he was town) but it's the opposite here. I really, really don't like his push on Dredd. It just seems like scum stretching to find something to push someone for. Does anybody here really think that "what do you possibly hope to accomplish with a vote???" is a legit thing from a townie? Maybe I'm biased because I tend to play more on shorter-deadline sites, but isn't voting people to get them to post totally standard here too?

VOTE: Whymafia



I agree that Rory is looking town here.

Reads to me like genuine misunderstanding over a scummy contradiction, though.

I endorse this product.

Realeo - any reason for the Ari vote besides a gut feel?

There is something called from EpicMafia called fillering. It's a condition where scum are unable to fake scumhunting so he talk something else. Methink that is what happening.

actually scum can scumhunt because it's multiball.

the thing you pointed out with Realo makes me want to give him a fair amount of town cred.

@Whymafia, I don't understand what you mean here. Could you clarify? You want to give Realo towncred here? Why?

I have mafia experience from another site, yes. I'm definitely used to a meta with a lot of egos and nuanced gameplay where everyone tries to meta-read each other and go to extreme lengths to reaction test for reads. It's kind of refreshing to come to a new community with a fresh slate of sorts.

Anyways, I respect your hesitance to trust someone claiming a reaction test retroactively. I will say that my refusal to explain myself until I got what I wanted out of it should indicate that it was at least a pre-planned maneuver as opposed to me just claiming it was a reaction test to cover myself. Doesn't mean it warrants a town read because, as has been mentioned, it's a multiball set-up, but I think it's fair to say I was legitimately reaction testing and not just covering my tracks by saying that.

Either way, Kasumeat is reinforcing my read on his slot. I would say I'm the most comfortable with him, Realeo, and Rory at this point. PMysterious is a slight town read, and although I disagree with his reads list I have a slight town on oldwino for putting himself in the spotlight by posting a full reads list in the first place. I feel like he's informing his opinions a bit from his own experience, so I get the impression that his scum game may line up with the things that he's looking for when scumreading other people. While he could be doing this intentionally as a bait, I feel like the surface-level nature of his reads makes this unlikely.

Judge and WhyMafia are mixed bags for me. I find myself agreeing with their stances when they give them, but they both give me this impression of not really caring too much about finding scum so much as having reasonable opinions. I'll go into more detail on this in a moment.

Ari, however, is the most deserving of a vote at this time in my opinion. Twice now he has come into the thread saying passive aggressive things to people pressuring him while actively avoiding questions aimed at him and not doing anything proactive. I understand being V/LA, but to come in the thread saying he's here and can answer questions just to ignore them and then come in later and laughing at the fact that there's a wagon on him? Don't like. I get the feeling he's not a player who is comfortable playing scum and is trying to discredit pressure on him by making out like it has no basis and the people voting him are inherently untrustworthy. Rather than ask me if I have any of my own opinions or laugh at people voting him, I'd really like to see where his head is at and some content that's not fluff.

now that is how u scum hunt. u get the feeling on how someone feels having rolled a certain alignment when u dont even know them. u criticize everyones play style and what not and hope to be town read for it
but dont forget the most important element: be sure to quote whole posts including multi quotes withing multi quotes so nobody dares read that shit and just assume there is some substance in it

Judge ISO

this game is going too fast for me to follow
almost a post an hour is way too much is it not?
by this rate we should be out of rvs in day 3 or 4

This doesn't serve to help the problem he's complaining about and nothing he has done before this point progresses the game either. It bothers me a bit because he could try to ask questions or pressure someone to get out of RVS instead of letting it take until "day 3 or 4" as he says.

VOTE: davesaz

need the replacement to talk more

What would a vote on that accomplish?

just about a little more than your question actually.

I'm okay with this vote on an inactive only because it's consistent with his behaviour so far. It seems he wants everyone to post stuff and that he's a less proactive player when it comes to scumhunting. Personally I'm against this and I'm always one to play with whomever is around and willing to play and let the mod worry about people who aren't posting. That being said, there's nothing inherently bad with voting an inactive if you don't have a better lead. Important to note that Judge is the one who instigates the aggressive interaction between himself and WhyMafia with this post.

I have this as scum. That vote literally does nothing. And complaints are just complaints. Back it up with action, his vote on Dave barely does that.

so what would ur majesty consider action if not a vote? enlighten me with ur wisdom

Okay so off the bat I agree with WhyMafia's sentiment here. Complaining about the state of the game's activity does nothing to solve the problem, and voting for an inactive because they "need to post more" is basically a throw-away vote. First of all because you're telling them outright that you're not scumreading them and your vote is a glorified prod. On top of that, your vote is wasted on someone who isn't posted and nobody is getting any meaningful information.

What bothers me about this is Judge's defensiveness. I think it's pretty clear that WhyMafia isn't saying a vote isn't action. He's saying that a vote on an inactive is useless. Rather than address this, Judge pretends as if WhyMafia is saying that a vote

in general

is not action. Not only is this obviously false, but it also serves to deflect back at WhyMafia for not being proactive rather than address his issue with an inactive vote.

The only thing that gives me pause is the fact that Judge complained about inactivity before voting an inactive replacement. I think there's an off-chance that he's town that doesn't like making reads without having a full picture and he just responds badly to people who try to call him out for that approach. That being said, I still think Judge getting so defensive after one call-out from WhyMafia raises a red flag for me.

I have this as scum. That vote literally does nothing. And complaints are just complaints. Back it up with action, his vote on Dave barely does that.

so what would ur majesty consider action if not a vote? enlighten me with ur wisdom

Call him out for it once he posts again. No need to take such an aggressive tone, I tend to lose interest in the game when people are unnecessarily aggressive.

and u call my response aggressive? sheesh i must've typed something in invisible ink

Again I find myself agreeing with what WhyMafia is saying. Still don't like that Judge is blinded by the fact that he's being criticized and ignores the actual point WhyMafia is trying to make. I can see him being town-aligned with an ego and being upset that someone else who isn't contributing is trying to criticize him, but I still think he comes out of this interaction looking worse.

whymafia 4 realz
i dont see u doin anything productive
ur just showing off and yabbing to appear active and posting
tell me if u have said anything that is meaningful so far

At the same time, this isn't untrue either. I also think that WhyMafia coming in to criticize oldwino's reads list and Judge's choice of action with his vote is unproductive. Judge comes off too defensive when making this point and I don't like that he ignores the actual points WhyMafia brought up, but he's not wrong.

your opinion of Realeo so far?

i kinda dig him so far

I also think Realeo has been probably the most productive player in progressing the game so far, so I like this response. However, no bearing on alignment from this. Just worth noting that it's a stance I agree with from him.

WhyMafia ISO

Guys, please stop voting me. It's L-3

Hmm, this seems a little defensive if you ask me. Being at L -3 is not a big issue during the RV phase, so why are you panicking so much about it?

VOTE: PM
Did you not see the preceding message

This implies that WhyMafia understands Realeo's intent as getting out of RVS and that he was not actually panicking about being lynched. He accompanies this with a pressure vote on PMysterious for not recognizing this. At this phase in the game I respect this choice of action.

VOTE: davesaz

need the replacement to talk more

What would a vote on that accomplish?

Once again I agree with WhyMafia here. I personally don't think a vote on an inactive accomplishes much, but I already touched on that in my Judge ISO.

My issue with this, however, is that this question is basically rhetorical. There's no answer that Judge can give to satisfy WhyMafia here. He's basically giving Judge a loaded question where no matter what Judge says he can disagree and call Judge scummy. There's no reason to ask "what does this vote accomplish" rather than just explain that you think it accomplishes nothing. WhyMafia strikes me as astute enough to understand why someone would vote an inactive and what it might do. So it's a mixed bag for me since I agree with WhyMafia but he's not doing anything helpful about it.

WhyMafia because of so few posts and those were empty. He voted Gamma and unvoted when questioned, voted Ari for no reason and questioned Judge's vote on Dave when I think Judge's vote made sense (getting Dave to participate).

When did I vote Ari? I was never questioned on my vote on Gamma? It was a joke vote/RVS banter. There is no point to vote on someone if they're inactive. And 1 vote on someone to pressure someone to post hardly ever works. If they go through D1 without posting hardly any stances, that's a cause for concern.

Judge - Complained game is moving too slowly, voted Dave to try to move things along which I was thinking of doing. Scum would let us wallow in RVS as long as possible.

I have this as scum. That vote literally does nothing. And complaints are just complaints. Back it up with action, his vote on Dave barely does that.

See here WhyMafia comes right out with the fact that he thinks Judge's inactive vote is scummy. That's fine with me, but what I don't understand is why he didn't say that initially and waited for someone to assign a town read to Judge and then disagree with it. Furthermore, his vote is still on PMysterious from RVS when PM didn't recognize the intent of Realeo's post. I feel like at this point WhyMafia should be voting for Judge but he refrains even though he thinks Judge's inactive vote is scummy.

Why Mafia, any reason you kept your vote on PMysterious at this point?

Reads to me like genuine misunderstanding over a scummy contradiction, though.

I endorse this product.

Realeo - any reason for the Ari vote besides a gut feel?

There is something called from EpicMafia called fillering. It's a condition where scum are unable to fake scumhunting so he talk something else. Methink that is what happening.

actually scum can scumhunt because it's multiball.

the thing you pointed out with Realo makes me want to give him a fair amount of town cred.

I do like him giving town cred to Realeo for not considering scum being able to scumhunt due to multiball. I also see that as a townslip so I agree with WhyMafia here.

whymafia 4 realz
i dont see u doin anything productive
ur just showing off and yabbing to appear active and posting
tell me if u have said anything that is meaningful so far

I'll say stuff when I feel as if I have something to input. Otherwise it's just a waste of time. Each of my posts are things that I believe in, but they aren't much, and I'll be the first to admit that. I'm trying to improve my D1 play, so stick with me

I don't like accepting self-meta, but I will say that WhyMafia not having a strong Day 1 would give an explanation for some of the problems I'm having so far. It definitely reads to me like he's hanging back and only posting when he has something he wants to disagree with or a strong opinion he wants to voice.

oldwino, most of your scumread reasoning are "post feels empty."

What do you mean with post feels empty? I think my post is the fullest. You can't have people start talking about ppmysterious if I don't start that. I advance the game. Townread me.

And how lane is forced? I think he's the one who progresses the game. He is the one who points out the contradiction of ppmysterious.

And how does "me not noticing PP replaces Gamma" is scumread?

Woah. Woah. Realeo. You seems so defensive.

Because the readlist doesn't makes senses.

If Aristo is a scumlean, I'm fine.

But if Aristo is null, I don't understand why PP is a scum but Aristo is a null.

To add that, I don't understand why every scumlean is a scum but Aristo is a null.

Hey .. this makes sense. I agree with what you're bringing up
Out of curiosity how would you sort Aristo yourself?

WhyMafia did you just miss where Realeo already stated his dislike of Ari or is this post you asking for more detail?

Lol at the votes on me

What do you think of the wagon?

Interested to see Ari's response to this and subsequently what WhyMafia has to say about it. I have thoughts about it but I want to let it play out.

OK, caught up. I'm going out shortly, but some quick thoughts and questions:

I like the Ari wagon. Pretty much no content in his posts, and doesn't seem to be looking to accomplish anything. Has anybody played with him before? Is he normally this low-content?

I agree with my predesessor, Katnip pinged me really hard at first. I hate that "reaction test" shit. It's a tool that scum can use to justify scummy posting. However, a few things give me pause: I really like his later posts, and they appear to show genuine scumhunting. Although as has been pointed out, this is multiball. They also seem astute enough that it makes me believe that the "reaction test" could be legit and not just him covering his tracks. On the other hand, I also don't like, his interaction with Whymafia and Dredd, as mentioned below. I do like his reaction to Oldwino's reads and agree 100%. Still leaning scum, but less so than when I went back to re-read to compose this. @Katnip, your account is ~2 weeks old, but do you have prior Mafia experience?

My strongest SR is Whymafia. I've played with him before and I townread him very quickly (when he was town) but it's the opposite here. I really, really don't like his push on Dredd. It just seems like scum stretching to find something to push someone for. Does anybody here really think that "what do you possibly hope to accomplish with a vote???" is a legit thing from a townie? Maybe I'm biased because I tend to play more on shorter-deadline sites, but isn't voting people to get them to post totally standard here too?

VOTE: Whymafia



I agree that Rory is looking town here.

Reads to me like genuine misunderstanding over a scummy contradiction, though.

I endorse this product.

Realeo - any reason for the Ari vote besides a gut feel?

There is something called from EpicMafia called fillering. It's a condition where scum are unable to fake scumhunting so he talk something else. Methink that is what happening.

actually scum can scumhunt because it's multiball.

the thing you pointed out with Realo makes me want to give him a fair amount of town cred.

@Whymafia, I don't understand what you mean here. Could you clarify? You want to give Realo towncred here? Why?

If he was scum, he would know it's multiball
Of course it's not a completely good method, but I feel like a townie would make this mistake
Additionally, you're voting me for a theory reason? That seems stupid lol. That seems to be reaching. It is of my opinion that just voting someone does nothing to get them to post, it just seems towny. I'm not going to vote someone for it, but it pings me, and supports a scum read if more evidence/gut comes into play

I find myself basically agreeing with this post. I like that he pushes the Realeo townslip and he gives an explanation for why he doesn't vote for Judge right off the bat. I still want to see why he thinks his vote was better staying on PM than pressuring Judge but this explanation at least makes his behaviour consistent. Similar to Judge, I find myself disagreeing with some of WhyMafia's methods but they are at least consistent.

I'm curious to see other people's thoughts on these two players and their interactions. I definitely can't see them being on the same scum team, but past that I think any combination of alignment is possible and I'll need to see more to have a more solid opinion. For now I'll say they're both null with points in their favour and against them.

bravo. u learn fast
btw way i will only respond to ur comment on my own iso with 2 words: fence+sitting
u quoted the whole fucking thing only to say u dont know what to make of it? really?

TL;DR - Yes that's a huge wall to basically say nothing. All I'm getting at is those two slots confuse me and there are some things I find scummy but it could just be town play that I disagree with since there isn't actually a contradiction anywhere.

Anyone I haven't mentioned yet has basically left no impression on me so far and needs to post more.

damn right it says nothing but who cares? just keep quoting stuff and u will look good enough and ppl will leave u alone

I think my biggest issue with Judge is with WhyMafia asking him what his vote on an inactive achieves, and him getting defensive and deflecting. I mean maybe it's a defensive townie move but what bothers me is him purposely misrepresenting the question. It's obvious WhyMafia was asking what voting an inactive achieves, and Judge twisted it to what a vote

in general

achieves.

Also you answered my question, was gonna ask if you think Realeo could be scum. I do see where you're coming from about the "town slip," although I feel like experienced scum would also realize that since there's another team something like filler content wouldn't be necessarily scummy.

i think my biggest issue with kantrip is he is faking his activity. theres nothing remotely genuine or innovative in his posts. he is looking for just about anything to justify a scum read on a couple of slots and thats all. now add the wall quoting and u get someone who is unlikely to ever get checked or lynched and probably never getting nkd early too

Also Ari already has multiple questions aimed at him and plenty of content he could comment on and chooses to come in and "lol at his wagon." I think a snarky response is warranted and won't knock Realeo for it.

plenty of content indeed. guess what? i have just provided the most content ever to be presented in a mafia game. this post should be adopted by mafia scholars and gurus all around the globe and harvard should be contacting me in the next 24 hours to teach their mafia 101 class and probably the intermediate and advanced classes too

Aristophanes: PMysterious, Realeo, Kantrip, Rory

There are some good names on this list, with Kantrip being one of those who I really suspect. Sheeping just because you "trust" someone, while getting Realeo's hopes up, it seems rather mindless instead of rather making his/her own opinions.

So, Kantrip, while I'm at it, I have a quick question, since I brought this up.

Ignoring Realeo's posts, who do you think is Mafia?

I think Ari is mafia.

I guess it didn't come across very well that I was joking about voting Ari just to sheep Realeo. I laid out my reasons I think Ari is scum in another post. I also think WhyMafia and Judge have raised some flags but I could also see them being town and I need to see more to feel more confident about it.

here let me give u a helping hand. im voting u at the end of this post so u can stop fence-sitting any time now. it must hurt to have been in ur situation for that long

Ari can you please answer questions aimed at you? Third time I've asked.

ok. let me provide u with one question and for the first time too. how do u feel about me right now?
actually let me toss in a 2nd question: why dont u share ur complete read list with the class?

And like, expand on your scum reads. Right now it just looks like OMGUS and defensiveness.

3rd question: put ur action where ur mouth is and expand on the scum reads from ur answer to question #2

Kantrip, what's your read on Kasumeat?

Town. Already had town vibes from Draynth and he reinforced them.

yes. the best way to scum hunt is to have a gut feeling, get vibes and assume how others feel and what goes into their minds. we got that. anything else u want to add?

VOTE: Kantrip

hint: stop wall quoting. if you need to respond to one specific phrase then quote it. if u want to respond to the whole post then link it. if u dont know how then ask. thank u

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

i would like to offer my apology to everyone not called kantrip for the long contenteless wall post. it was made to make a point though and i suspect most of u did get the hint loud and clear.

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

Woah, that ultra wall was a prank. Disappointing.

no it wasn't. it was to show how kantrip has been coasting by looking busy while saying nothing

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

Guys, I'm role claiming.

I'm double voter.

VOTE: Judge
VOTE: Ari

I scumread Judge's sarcasm. I can understand human being sarcastic, but this is coming from a person complaining about lack of content. Smells hypocrisy when he being sarcastic about it especially the fact he has done nothing.

I mean, is it really possible that from Judge's perspective, EVERYTHING IS NAI AND EVERYTHING IS MEANINGLESS? Can't he even have scumlean or townlean?

and I scum read you back. that vote switch is what some scum would do to reposition themselves on a lynch wagon so they would not appear like having joined it early in later vc analysis. for better understanding consult titus.

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

i would like to offer my apology to everyone not called kantrip for the long contenteless wall post. it was made to make a point though and i suspect most of u did get the hint loud and clear.

If you expect me to read a wall that long you are out of your mind. Make a summary and I'll consider reading.

the tldr is katrip is busy doing nothing and is asking questions that do not serve the game. my post isnt really that long if you only count what i myself said. the rest is kantrip wall quoting on multiple occasions just to make his post look big and impressive

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

Judge - Are you serious about scumreading Realeo for voting you then voting back to Ari again? Could you provide a full reads list actually, and try to keep emotion out of it? I'll do the same in exchange.

Town:

PMysterious, Realeo, Rory, oldwino

Mixed leaning town:

WhyMafia

Mixed leaning scum:

Judge, Kasu

Scum:

lane, Ari

Everyone else: null

town (in order of towniness): davesaz-kasumeat-lane0168
scum (you being the strongest sr): rory-realeo-kantrip
everyone else is still undecided
and I dont have emotions involved

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

I think Judge's countless posts about the state of the game and a random vote on one of several inactive players serves to

look

like he cares about progressing the game, but the way he has reacted to people who question him or his intentions shows that it's the appearance he cares about and not the result. I also believe that's what WhyMafia was feeling when calling the lurker vote scummy and, considering he only did that after someone else tried to call Judge town for it, I don't get the impression that he was trying to push Judge for it at all.

and he says to leave emotion out the door
this is just one paragraph but u can read the whole post
-i think judge doing this is meant to look like that: his own impression about someone elses motive with no proof at all and no prior knowledge of said someone else
-the way he reacts shows something else: again he has no knowledge of the person he is talking about and is subjecting his own personal view
-i believe wm feelings to be: once more he states his own feeling about someone elses...feeling!!!
-i dont get the impression: im getting bored of pointing out how he has everything built on feelings, emotions and projection

in short kantrip never makes one argument supported with actual evidence. its all how he feels or how he interprets posts from other people and how he guesses what they feel and what they think without them even saying so

i think the lion must have felt guilty for killing the deer and that it why i perceive his stance as not wanting to face the camera

there. i gave you a perfect explanation of why the camera is showing the lions rear rather than its face. it cant be that the lion doesnt like the camera or is even unaware of it existing. no, what i feel is right. lion is deliberately evadinf the camera and its because it feels guilty. bullocks

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

Kantip, I see your concern @ Kasumeat, but is it town contradiction or mafia contradiction?

u dont get to ask him that kind of question
only kantrip can ask others those types of questions
u just need to accept his view on it because its how he feels it to be
and his feelings are a mod confirmed scum hunting tool

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

fwiw im kinda digging this lane guy. he is so confident and as defiant as a true furyan

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

No. The double voting thingy is a joke that "I wish I can vote two people."

I started that hobby from Micro711. Lane was playing there so I decided to resume it back.

For more information about joke, refer my sig.

let me try to explain why i found it scummy. if u voted ari then me i would have had much less trouble with the said joke. my problem is you were 2nd on ari's wagon. then you made that joke as u call it and u became the 4th vote on the wagon. ari has the largest wagon so it has potential to go through and ur repositioning on it tells me ur not confident in a scum flip and want to avoid being called on it. safer to be in the middle rather than at the front or towards the end of a wagon. that is why in newbie games ir is statistically proven that the 3rd slot of the d1 wagon has a higher probability of flipping scum than the other 4. and especially so when its a mislynch but also applies to bussing.

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

He voted Judge, then by voting Ari next, that canceled his vote on Judge

Now that you pointed it out, Judge's scumread about VCA makes senses.

yes. and ur vote on me never shows on the vc bc it was cancelled in the same post.

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

@Dredd, what do you think of Something Smart?

undecided on him still. he has some reads that go along with mine (town lane, scum rory) but i strongly disagree with his kasumeat sr and his realeo tr (although the later is coming around to at least acknowledge his joke post was scummy so maybe i should reevaluate him)

i would put ss as someone i wouldnt vote for today at least as he appears to be trying to read and form reads regardless of whether i agree with them. him and oldwino join the town leans for now

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

He voted Judge, then by voting Ari next, that canceled his vote on Judge

Now that you pointed it out, Judge's scumread about VCA makes senses.

Sorry, I don't understand 'VCA.' Senior moment if it's something obvious. Please explain.

vote count analysis

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

VOTE: Something Smart

whats with my town reads/leans voting each other?

Spoiler:

i do understand the reasoning behind this vote as shown in the post so i cant complain about the vote itself
its just that everytime i start feeling good about someone another person finds something that looks bad in their posts and the other person is more likely than not a town lean
lane and oldwino are cross voting each other and i have tr on lane and a tl on wino
now kasumeat is voting something smart
i only stated 3 trs in dave/lane/kasumeat and recently stated 2 tls on something smart/oldwino
so it looks like 60 percent of my reads above the null line are voting each other

@kantrip: i can call you an asshole too but then that wouldnt be too constructive either
i am trying to avoid engaging you directly bc you seen to be a skilled hypocrite and ppl are nor seeing it
i cant compete with that
u post walls and when i do one u say u wont read it and ask me to highlight my questions in a different point
well this was exactly my point
you post walls and count on people not reading them but you get town points for having big posts that in reality are void and u urself admitted the biggest of them was a lot of words to say basically nothing yet nobody called you out on it

u want to call me toxic? fine
but im not the one calling ppl assholes and i wasnt the one who threatened to leave the whole site too
aitch wye pee o cee ar i tee e spells hypocrite: a person whose actions are contradictory to what they preach

in short if u want to practice ur own principles u should first avoid calling people names and stop whining and threatening when things dont go your way
and second u need to read long posts and find the points meant to address u on ur own or stop posting walls urself and do a tldr for the ones u already posted

seriously this is becoming a personal dislike so im going to avoid u at all costs but i expect the same courtesy from u my friend

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

So when I initially asked what you thought of Realeo you said you kinda dug him so far. Why did you feel that way at that time? And what changed to make him one of your scumreads so fast?
Also, why the Rory scumread?

for those who may want this answered although i doubt anyone missed why i put realeo in my srs
the main reason for the realeo sr was the vote switch in the same post that i associated with readjusting his position on the ari wagon and i think i explained that already twice or thrice

the reason for my sr on rory is i have difficulty seeing his read list as genuine and i kind of disagree with his reads especially on realeo/kantrip/kasumeat

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

Also I more wanted to know why you thought Realeo was townie when you first said you kinda dig him. I didn't miss why you scumread him now, I wanted to know why you townread him before.

the way he said to stop voting him @l-3 didnt strike me as a panicking scum. scum would go on lomger in trying to persuade ppl to unvote. all he did is a one line note to stop voting him

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

not a fan of the no lynch but im not going to vote someone blindly to get a lynch either
i suggest we keep scum hunting and voting who we think r scum and if deadline hits without reaching majority so be it
in other words do not vote no lynch on purpose

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

@JJD, why did you change your read on Dave from scum to town? I don't really think he deserved that one.

dave asks questions that seem to be oriented around getting to understand ppl and where they are coming from
his questions neither strike me as fillers nor do they look like hes trying to strangle someone for weak sause

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

ok
so it looks like i might have been wrong on realeo
his 489 is a reasonable read list regardless of how i agree or disagree and the reasoning seem like it could come from town
496 is more likely to come from town too

if kasumeat flips town i will come hard after raya for voting the counter wagon just bc
i myself do not sr kadu so i will not be voting him but im not going to vote the other wagon to save him
btw im having difficulty reading this aris guy
i cant even tell if this is his normal play

so no votes on rory and im the only one voting kantrip
in other words my vote is useless
but i will make a stance by switching it to raya who also doesnt have any votes on her
it wont lynch her
fine but i want it to go on record that i fos her in case i dont make it through the night

VOTE: raya

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

VOTE: Aristo

For the record I think both Kasu and Aristo are town but I hate the Kasu wagon a tiny bit more.

i dont know about you but i think the town priority is to lynch scum
if we cant lynch scum or if the leading wagons are on trs then we vote for who we think is scum or go for no lynch
it is always better to no lynch than to lynch town

VOTE: crush

for wanting to lynch his own town read
explanation: crush is sating that so when/if aris flips town he gets town credit and can say i told u so. i cant think of another explanation for the move

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

VOTE: Aristo

For the record I think both Kasu and Aristo are town but I hate the Kasu wagon a tiny bit more.

i dont know about you but i think the town priority is to lynch scum
if we cant lynch scum or if the leading wagons are on trs then we vote for who we think is scum or go for no lynch
it is always better to no lynch than to lynch town

VOTE: crush

for wanting to lynch his own town read
explanation: crush is sating that so when/if aris flips town he gets town credit and can say i told u so. i cant think of another explanation for the move

Does this vote really accomplish anything, with only 13 hours on the clock?

does yours here? mine makes a stance just like my previous votes on realeo and raya. im not scum reading realeo no more though so im making it known who made scummy moves for future reference

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

VOTE: Aristophanes
Actually I think I see a reason it's likely to be scum. It would be antitown to explain why now.

it is antitown to state why you want to lynch the guy? thats a new one
without a clear reason for putting him @L-1 it would be very hard for me to evaluate your reason. your unstated reason that is

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

I can see a specific reason to post 584 as scum.
It would potentially help scum to explain the reason at this time.

in my limited experience in matrix 5 when scum are about to be lynched on d1 they fake claim a pr and most likely one they know is in the setup or at least likely to be
this helps their partner identify the prs through responses and/or counter claiming
i don't see scum getting lynched on d1 faking vt for no benefit at all

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

VOTE: oldwino

Either lynch here or I'm vigging him.

Fakeclaim?

I think Vedith always plays like this.

@JJD, you act like it's a 100% fact that Aristo is town, if that was the case then yes my vote would be bad. I'm voting for a town read because I think lynching a town READ (yes there's a chance he flips red, my D1 reads aren't perfect) is better than not lynching at all. But if you want to vote davesaz, oldwino, vedith or raya with me I'm down.

i will gladly vote raya
im not sure about davesaz anymore
i have a town lean on oldwino and a tr on vedith still

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

VOTE: davesaz

i definitely dont tr davesaz anymore
i had him as a tr bc of the way he phrased his questions and precisely

for not being opportunistic

now that is all down the drain

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

my read list at end on d1

town
Vedith
Kasumeat
Something_Smart

town lean
Realeo
oldwino

not sure
Aristophanes
Crush
WhyMafia

lynch pool
Davesaz
Raya36
Not_Mafia (actually his predecessor but not posting after replacing in is also scummy)
Kantrip

if dave is scum then ari is not on his team

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

@realeo: not sure what youre saying. dave voted kasu after unvoting pmysterious. if he was aris p he would have stayed there or at least not bring him up to l-1
where is the flaw in my logic?

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

Ego

Do is Ari scum or what?

not mafia has been here for over 36 hours and this is his whole iso. how is this nai? u join a game towards the end of the day and the day is extended only in hopes u would have something to say or ask and you post a total of 7 words over 2 posts?

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

There is something called busing, you know. I mean, it's wifom-able, but not to the degree we can just eliminate Dave-Ari.

then if dave flips scum and the setup has a investigative on his faction then aris is the target for them
if its a cop or seer we know he is daves p if theres a guilty or we know hes not if no one claims a guilty
if its tracker or stalker then he can be cleared if there are 2 kills but not if there is only one
same if theres a jk or wizard

but thats all theory and im sure investigative roles know what to do in any case so i was just stating my own opinion
but i also see yours as a valid but less likely possibility

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

Dave has just about the most unremarkable Iso I've seen!

Like, I have literally nothing to say about it, because it also says nothing.

i dont even know what this means
r u voting him or not?

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

ill add one more point
nm goes rogue on me for scum reading him but says absolutely nothing to fave who had already posted that he would lynch nm
if dave is scum this is blatant distancing as dave knows we dont have time to switch to nm today

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

Also I've started to realize the full weirdness of the setup I've created after playing it from the town side.

rofl

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

I don't know about you, but I'd much rather lynch a werewolf today...

that would a bad approach. let me tell u why:

a- from a town pov scum is scum so it doesnt matter what we lynch as long as its not town
b- both scum factions have night kills and are more likely to shoot town than scum. eliminate one faction and have less night kills
c- with the elimination of a scum faction the prs can out safely as they are no direct threat to the other still existing faction. we thus have 2 confirmed townies
d- we should have more leads today on who the second mafia is. their nk obviously was blocked and while ur couldve been a doctor or a ww rb it could also have been a jailer

in fact im not even sure about the ww rb blocking the mafia kill. i think they might only be able to block the seer/wizard/stalker/guardian but ill let ss explain since hes the one who invented this setup or btd since hes the one modding the game

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

regarding point c: the prs do not need to claim at once but only if in danger of getting lynched. this is because the wws are likely to try and kill them still if they are confirmed and known so better just pretend to be another vt unless pushed to l-1

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

not much time now but is realeo avoiding me on purpose on his read list?
also ive been gone 23 hours and 4 people didnt post in that time

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

not much time now but is realeo avoiding me on purpose on his read list?
also ive been gone 23 hours and 4 people didnt post in that time

Think we should lynch Realeo?

not what i meant
i checked his read list twice and he mentioned everyone but me

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

regarding not_mafia: this guy is playing in a way i never saw before. no content at all + very few posts + naked voting. its almost as if he wants to be lynched or vigged except we dont have a town vig in this setup. its going to be impossible for me to get a read there. the playstyle itself is scummy as fuck but i dont think scum would be so obvious and intimidating in their play. ill sheep someone who lmows him better if applicable. if not then i will vote there if no better option is presented

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

^^thats exactly my sentiment
rory was scummy to me. his read list made no sense from my pov
nm did absolutely nothing to revive the slot in my eyes

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

@kantrip: so why a new wagon on oldwino over joining the existing one on nm seeing as you have them both on both scum pools?

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

..

do triple sevens pay in this game??

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

Alright, so from a Raya Iso I think we might be able ti figure out both a buddy and those most likely to kill them!

Possible buddies: Kausmeat, SS
Possible killers: Crush (PM Slot), Lane

funny that you should include all my 3 explicit trs is your 4 ppl to suspect
i get why you may suspect kasu for rayas buddy but what makes you think ss might be?
also just bc raya suspected crush and lane doesnt mean they either of them shot her
btw lane is now vedith

aside form my 3 top trs in vedith/ss/kasu i think i need to reevaluate everyone else
my own lynch pool currently is nm/aris/whymafia but i dont have much faith in my reads on aris/whymafia
nm posted again and again said nothing in 782

VOTE: not_mafia

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

Strong SR, also a huge asshole.
VOTE: vedith

Would also lunch Ari, SS, NM and Whymafia today. Maybe Crush too, I need to look him over again. NM is actually my last choice on this list because the problem with lynching him today is that if he flips town, it gives us so little info, which basically everyone reading him as more or less null.

The Wino wagon, I don't like at all and will not vote there.

so you sr all my 3 srs but also sr my other 2 trs apart from you?
and i dont understand the last line. do you tr wino or hate the composition of his wagon (which is solo kantrip)? im assuming the former bc you did not include kantrup in your lynch pool but i want to be sure i got it right

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

How do you town read Vedith?

i had a tr on lane and vedith didnt destroy it
i understand how some can feel offended by vedith posting style but i see it as half-trollish myself
you say you want to lynch him and he says you dont get a say in it and i get the impression its a tongue-in-cheek response instead of just stating hes town

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

So why isn't he in your lynchpool

Because he's the type of person who I doubt a wagon would solve anything
He's not miraculously gonna start playing seriously either
Best hope is for our invests to eventually check him and find a guilty, or mis-lynch him when there isn't much to gain from other slots
I feel like the other people in my lynch pool offer more in terms if scumminess and a flip

I'm not sure if I'm articulating this well, but please ask me more if you're confused

3 things:

1- why did you have to use the term mislynch when lynch would have sufficed?
2- why would you wait until closer to lylo to get such a

mis

lynch?
3- what exactly do you get from a vedith/aris flip as either town/wolf? I get that if we lynch the mafia left then that is that and one faction is eliminated, but what if neither is? what info do you gain then?

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

i cant see town playing like nm does
i cant even see ww playing like that
his play hints of someone who has given up and is waiting to die either by lynch or by nk
someone who doesnt have hope of making it to endgame
i could be wrong and ppl say he plays like that all the time but that was my take on it fwiw
as for wm he sounds town
he cant be mafia bc why would he be defending anyone not him?
he cant be ww with nm bc nm is not playing like one and even if nm was ww wm as his p would have to bus at this point not blatantly defend him
my only worry is wm is a ww and suspects nm is the last mafia and wants him alive for the 2nd nk
thats only a possibility though but not likely so wm gets a town lean but nm is still a scum lean in any case

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

Is it sad that 4 posts from Lang Buddha are making me want to reevaluate the Realeo slot?

me too. i reread and my dislike for his style is probably stemming form him trying to impersonate lang buddha (i dont play gta so i dont know for sure) but anyway i realize how frustrating i mustve sounded in my previous game when when i kept saying I AM THE LAW

however theres something else. all 4 posts are contentless in the sense they add nothing to the game. he is asking about what happened last night when clearly nobody could answer that even if they knew. it was either a scum rb and scum wont claim, a town pr protection and again they should not claim, or mafia didnt submit a kill bc raya was lynched and nm wasnt around to find out

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

sry 4 missing out today. long day and too tired to focus

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

In the meantime can you not waste your vote?

Why is me voting mod confirmed scum a waste?

did i miss a claim or is this just you saying youre confident in your read on wm? because i find it odd nobody else is voting there if he really was mod confirmed scum

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

Oh shit, we're getting down to the wire!
Let my do an OldWino read. I'd rather that than NM!

oldwino is town all town and i cant begin to understand why he is being suspected in the first place

pedit: thank you @vedith

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

id have to iso him for precise quotes but his overall play is town
like he is playing the game and not hiding
he is talking back to people who talk to him
he is analyzing things like when he said realeo was town because he said not to claim
he acknowledges his slot could be linked to rayas by an outsider and doesnt freak out or try to bend the facts
he reevaluates his reads when something new pops up
he is not being opportunistic and doesnt push weak sauce
hes not afraid to go against the crowd or to voice his own thoughts and his posts are no one liners
i dont know how to explain more but i detect no signs of manipulative play from oldwino

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

And your case for NM Scum is...that he isn't being helpful?
Did you get a scumvibe from Rory or are you basing this solely on NM's lack of content?
What makes you believe this lack of content without even trying is scummy?

rory was a scum read to me yes. nm just built on it and didnt do anything to change it

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

Those could all come from scum. And I feel like him admitting the link between him and Raya might be distancing himself from that kill that his team made.

The thing is I think Not_Mafia is mafia and oldwino is WW. So I'd rather lynch oldwino because by default a WW read is twice as likely to be right and because the main anti-mafia PR can for sure get a result on whether or not Not_Mafia is mafia.

now now. we cant accuse oldwino of being the top candidate for being rayas p then go back and say hes on the opposing team. that would be like hes guilty already but we are looking for a suitable crime to accuse him of

and yes all that could be faked by scum but only individually nor all at once. everything oldwino says fits with everything else he had said so its building a homogeneous fabric altogether

and i dont understand the 2nd paragraph. how is a a ww read twice likely to be right? or are you referring to the fact we have 2 wws and 1 mafia alive so youre actually saying any random hit is twice likely to land on a ww than on mafia?

I mean its twice likely nm is a ww than mafia too. that also applies to me/you/anyone else in the game but it doesnt make a read more likely to be correct

finally how do we know what investigatives we have and whether they will make it through the night? in my view the investigatives of one alignment can win us the game if we just eradicate the faction they investigate by becoming ics. if nm flips mafia then we likely have 2 confirmed townies in addition to 2 prs who are after the wws so 4 nks for them to overcome and 4 mislynches to accomplish when we are only 10 so we have 3 days and night more likely meaning they cannot get rid of all conf town before lylo, whereas with 2 nks it is theoritically feasible over only 2 nights

but anyway discussing lynchinh which faction over which is not the main concern here. my argument is i dont scum read oldwino to begin with so im not voting him over anyone else

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

You don't think either of us are scum but you'll vote whomever SSmart wants you to vote?
Nice play.

I didn't actually vote on his request. I wanted to know who he preferred.
But I won't waste time defending someone who's voting me.

man thats some bs reasoning to let a tr of yours hang
this game is not about personal feelings or trading favours. its about who rolled what role and lynching those who rolled scum and sparing those who rolled town regardless of how bad you think their reads/play is
im not voting nm because hes playing bad. otherwise id be voting buddha who is doing almost the exact same thing
im voting nm because i thought rory was scummy and then nm didnt manage to change that read
realeo we started on the wrong foot but my read on him changed later

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

So from the looks of it, JK has a guilty.
IMO, JK should out with their guilty UNLESS it's Not_Mafia, because I think he's much more likely to be mafia than WW.

there are many possibilities for the 1 kill only each night
the jk if existent can only have a guilty on mafia bc they cannot prevent the wws nk
its evident we dont have a wizard which is the equivalent to a jk only woks on wws bc we have a stalker flipped
so we either have guardian or elder both of which could explain the missing kill on the 2nd night

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

okay yes i ctrl+fd raya with realeo and realeo is a really good candidate for mafia as well just based on his raya interactions and buddha is being a scumfuck in general
VOTE: Lang Buddha

i get the sr on on lb but why him over nm? and especially so when ss hinted he prefers to lynch wws over mafia and you are implying you suspect lb to me mafia which us the same everyone suspects nm to be

pedit: god i reread what i typed and it doesnt make much sense. let me retry

@mm: do you want to lynch mafia/ww/any scum? if ww then why lb at all? if mafia then why lb over nm? if any scum then again why lb over nm or anyone else? have u read the game or are u still not fully caught up? i mean u replaced into a slot that was trd by me but i need to reassert that read on u as the replacements dont bode too well with me and especially the one that came in and replaced out during the same night

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

Uhhhh what the fuck
Okay yes WhyMafia is the mafia member I abort my earlier comment about Realeo

aristophanes is a candidate for killing Raya I think

so is dredd

so the mafia is in lb/wm and the wws are me/aris. are these your current reads?

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

mafia: WhyMafia
WW: Buddha, Dredd

i am probably here for now

pedit: ok now i can say that i think mafia almost certainly aimed for werewolves here; i'm thinking and wolves would be more likely to not crosskill so i think it was a mafia kill

also, mafia are usually able to detect scummy town so i think some players, especially less experienced ones, would have somewhat similar reads to scum generally

make up ur mind. am i scum with buddha or aris?

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

It can't be a BP.

why not? i reread that post 3 times until i finally got it u meant an elderly with ur 2nd mention of bp but i still dont get why it cant be bp on the 1st mention

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

Vedith, have you read him correctly before?

Yes I am 100% spot on. Lynch him with me.

i dunno. im still interrogating him to understand where hes coming from

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

Almost locktown- Ari, Vedith, Judge
Nullish/former townreads- Crush, Lang Buddha, Mario
Idk?- Kantrip
Scum- Not_Mafia, WhyMafia

My readlist is basically Ari Vedith and Judge town, no freaking clue about the rest.

im not sure why ari is so hi on your list. hes as good as nm/lb on my reads
my list had vedith as the top tr
2nd place is ss
i dont have anything against crush and i no longer want to lynvh kantrip
i had a tr on kasu but im not quite sure what to make of marios entrance so ill put this slot on hold until i get some answers
wm could be scum but only by poe. i dont have a real case there
my top 3 suspects are ari/nm/lb but im not sold they could all be scum. just one or two of them.
i see a wagon forming on ari but it has both nm and lb on it so it practically means nothing to me
if ari is scum it could still be one of them is the other faction and if ari is town its almost a certainty one of them is scum if not both, only not the same faction

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

No that's too hard work.
I claim a guilty on Mario though. Either lynch me or him

r u 4 real? i thought u were joking the 1st time but this post makes me wonder

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

One Mario flips Scum WhyMafia is his WW buddy

ok. ur kidding. we already had a flipped stalker so u cant be seer. nice try though. had me going for a couple of minutes.

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

bp explains one death
doesn't explain two
so even if there is a BP there has to be another cause (jailkeeper)

maybe 2 bps. that is still a possibility bc the stalker either had am elderly or a guardian with him so if wino was the mafia kill then the wws either shot the elderly or the guardian made a good save
if wino was shot by the wws though then it could be anything that caused the mafia kill to fail on 2 nights. doctor/jk or one + bp or not submitting a kill on one night or even both sides targeting wino on n2

but ok. i get what ur saying now. i dont think ur scum still but im not as confident so not voting u today i think

lynch pool in nm/aris/lb and i had wm only as backup if one of them is town. seeing as both lb/nm are voting aris it doesnt look like all are scum so wm joins the lynch pool
time for me now to think decide which of the 4 is more likely to flip scum

Spoiler: me thinking aloud

logically speaking if im confident in there being at least one townie in nm/aris/lb then wm has a higher chance of flipping scum than any of them
however i dont read wm as scum on play. just by poe so i could be wrong on him and maybe im tring scum
also wm doesnt make sense to me as rayas p so thats another point in his favor bc it makes him either ww or town with very little chance of him flipping mafia
however i think nm is the mafia remaining so again wm being ww makes sense
ull leave it at that and come back later to reevaluate everything

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

i think vedith gambit only strengthens my tr on him. i dont see why mafia/ww would claim a guilty on mm like that and insist that we lynch him and then go for vedith if mm flips town. looks like suicidal play by scum

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

Ari is so high on my list because I know him really well.

Seems you guys aren't willing to trust me so I'll have to make a case. Can whoever is scumreading him point to specific things that you scumread him for?

its not about trust its about understanding
ari posts are void and empty
theyre not any better than lang buddhas 1190 which is lots of words saying absolutely nothing about the game
what does a song have to do with anything here? and to think this was lbs most valuable post yet is saddening
as for a case i dont have one aside from his posts being contentless and u telling me thats town aris is much like everyone telling me thats town nm
at 1st it makes them null and impossible to read but with more flips and ppl we hang flipping town it becomes more of an issue that these slots have yet to contribute much if anything

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

u made up my mind

VOTE: lang buddha

his recent series of posts are totally fake and are meant to make him appear like he is making arguments and talking back and forth to mario but the subject theyre arguing about is not relevant to this specific game. they can take that to some banter thread or something but it serves no purpose in this thread except to appear to have a few posts that have a paragraph or two and that are making a point and responding to someone else

what i mean is you cant really ask him why he said so and so bc he will say it was in response to so and so which is true
u cant even ask why he initiated that conversation bc he will say it annoyed him
so it does look like would have responses if questioned too which will make him look like he is engaging more but still it is nothing towards game solving or scum hunting

i hope i clearly got my message across. i tried to express it as best as i could rather than just say its a gut read

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

so im a piece of shit for not picking a song in a game of mafia?
no
youre a piece of shit for not playing bthe game and replacing in only troll
in fact that qualifies you to be a whole bowl of shit not just a piece of it
now play mafia or replace out
the general discussion forum is over there
thats where you can have ppl pick songs or suggest recipes for your entertainment

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

@mod: if this shit fest from buddha continues i will be oblige to respond in kind. i do not appreciate his language and it would be nice if you stepped in before i lost my temper. thank you

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

oh dear. more replacements more referring to p0 to see who became whom and how their play coincides/contradicts with my read on their predecessor.

pedit: i feel you wm but you are punishing me for their behavior. u can stay and side by me instead. im ok lynching either of them

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

@wm: lol. sheeping me is bad idea. working with me is a good idea though. im about as clueless as you are here, and all i can guarantee is there is 1 or 2 scums is nm/lb/ari.

thanks for staying though, and your recent posts give me the feeling you might be frustrated town which in turn means i, town reading someone i shouldnt

VOTE: not_mafia

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

where is everyone? the game pace is too slow im starting to worry we will either mislynch towards the end of the day or have another no lynch.

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

Then why are you getting others to lynch me when we are certain NotMafia is scum?

Because I'd rather lynch WW and let the JK take care of mafia.

i think this is bad logic simply bc we should lynch the ones we are most certain are scum regardless
correct me if im wrong but youre saying youre positive nm is mafia but you would rather go for a less certain slot hoping to lynch a ww
if so then what happens if that less certain slot flips town? we still have the more likely scum alive and we have 2 likely nks still
and what makes you so sure its a jk as opposed to other possibilities? why is jk more likely than doctor save on n1 and both scum factions shooting the same target on n2 for instance?why not mafia did not submit a kill on n1 and shot bp on n2? unless you are claiming jk yourself in which case you do have a guilty and it makes no sense to keep the mafia alive when theyll be jkd anyway so wont be doing that cross kill we might want them alive to precisely do
ok what am i missing?

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

where is everyone? the game pace is too slow im starting to worry we will either mislynch towards the end of the day or have another no lynch.

Why is Not_Mafia a better lynch than WhyMafia?

read my response to ss in my previous post
i personally have doubts about wm flipping scum but lets assume that wm and nm have the same exact chances of being town just for the argument in which case id still rather be wrong about a slot that is not playing than one that is trying to contribute and post game content regularly
if wm is town he probably can show it later or help us catch scum whereas if nm is town he is neither helping nor is he likely to town it up later and that assuming he is town in the first place

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

Umlaut replaces Not_Mafia.

finally
now lets hope this one can show us theyre town if they really are
at the very least um hoping for some content that slot now so ill give them a chance to catch up

UNVOTE:

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

Egopost.

Any claims or other revealed info yet? (I will ignore your answer if you editorialize, just the facts plz)

none that im aware of but we have a flipped stalker so the setup is partially revealed on the wws half of the game
also ther has been only one nk each night but on n1 it was a mafia who flipped so we know that was the wws kill
on the 2nd night the stalker flipped so we dont know for sure what happened there

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

i kinda have this crazy setup spec but i must stress its just one possibility and does not have any advantage of being more likely than not
what if the mafia half of the setup only has a jk (line a)?
and what if the jk acted on raya on n1 when she was supposed to do the kill thus blocking her kill but not protecting her from the wws kill?
and what if that jk acted on someone else (obviously) on n2 but isnt sure if they blocked the kill from origin or protected them? it could also have been the guardian that protected their target or it could be that the elder got shot or it could be that both scums targeted oldwino on n2 so it makes sense the jk doesnt claim bc there is nothing certain or even close to being certain in their results and conclusions?

mind you it could still be a jk + bp or it could be cop + doctor or tracker + doctor still. we do know it cant be cop alone (column 2) bc where did the mafia kill go on n1 unless they did not submit one

yes. too many possibilities and i cant decide which is more likely to try and explain who blocked and who got blocked or who saved and who was saved to narrow down our lynch possibilities to a minimum based on facts rather than speculation and gut alone

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

Ill be here soon...maybe tomorrow

and he tells me hes done more than nm

VOTE: aris

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

@umlaut: when you do isos do you do then individually or do you include davesas so you know what post/reaction came to after what post/action?

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

@JjD why is Aris scum?

same reason i sr nm b4 and lang now. theyre all skating by in different ways and aris' is always promising to do things in the future (tomorrow, nwxt tuesday etc)

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

What I dislike about your vote in particular, Dredd, is that it came at the end of the day like everyone else's who was treating it as a deadline compromise, but was argued as if you had really strong feelings that Dave was scum all of a sudden. The fact that he was "opportunistic" (which I still don't see) was enough to outweigh the townread you'd had all the rest of the day to the point where you weren't conflicted at all about voting.

my stance has been and always will be that lynching "scum" is better than mo lynch but no lynch is still better than lynching town
i didnt sr aris back then and no strong arguments were presented against him so we were likely not going to lynch on d1
i just went back to remind myself what happened exactly and found aris had 5 votes on him and one was raya whom i heavily scum read and another was crush whom i also srd at the time and voted him shortly after and dave exclaimed on what my vote accomplished with 13 hours remaining in the day then shortly after added the 6th vote on aris and i saw no reason for him to push for the lynch when he wasnt sure and was foing the exact same thing you are accusing me of doing: finding a reason to vote aris
i mean just iso dave again and do a search on aris and youd find dave never even mentioned aris is anyway b4 he decided to vote him and it didnt feel right to me so i saw it as an opportunistic move to get a mislynch through b4 the day ended and if u still think this was a bad move on my part then so be it but i just wanted you to be on the know and see how things progressed rather than read isolated isos that do not really show the atmosphere around the situation

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

And you don't believe that he plays like that as town too?

i dont really know anymore
i read a recent game of his and he was scum and was also low on activity but he actually was better than this and provided some content when he did post. he had arguments and looked like he was trying to solve the game somewhat so im not sure if he is really scum here or just disconnected to the game so lets see what he has to offer and if he will ever deliver

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

Also, I have a husband

is this a confession of having a partner yourself?
sorry but had too keep the cycle going on

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

I'm apparently slow today, can someone explain if S_S is claiming scum or just claiming Thor is scum?

to my understanding he is claiming thor is the last mafia but i would want him to explain how he got to that conclusion
i also am amazed there has been only one nk per night for the whole game and would want to go through crush/titus iso to see if either crumbed their targets
if we have a gaurdian they could have made a save on one night but if not then either the elder/bp got targeted or the jk has been amazingly successful or -and this is much less likely- both scum sides shot the same person on n2 and n3
i dont know about claiming either. why would we want to recognize the remaining prs when they are not even investigative and thus cannot give us much info
more to it lets assume we have a bp and and elder. now why should they claim unless they are being wagoned? what info does it give us? on contrary i see it as beneficial to scum if they decide to work together with each shooting the other sides bp (the elderly being a bp to wolves) unless each already shot their own bp in which case that only serves to recognize that theres an elderly rather than a guardian and the wws know whom to shoot next and the mafia also might shoot the bp anyway now that the jk is dead
all in all im not in favour od claiming unless maybe its a mass claim but then all scum will still claim vts and we achieve nothing

so first i need to look for clues from the jk on their targets and 2nd we should reanalyze the situation to find out how come there has always been a missing kill each night
actually give me some time to try and think about it when my mind is more active to see if theres a benefit to claiming. im too brain dead right now to think of all possible combinations

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

wow
those look pretty strong hints in hindsight
now back to the claiming thing: what good does it do us to know who is a pr?

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

VOTE: SS

what is this? look man th game is tight enough for you to cast a vote w/o giving a reason or explaining anything
do we claim or not? do you believe thor to be the last mafia and if so should we lynch him or leash him?
why ss over aris? lots of things deserve your commenting on them

on another note it finally hit me that the nks are all likely to be the ww kills
if titus thought thor was mafia then she mustve jailed him at least twice (her or her predecessor that is)
would it not be beneficial for us to know if thor (or his team) targeted anyone on n1? i see little chance that the kill was blocked by jk on n1 so they might have hit the bp already and if so then thor knows there to be one and also knows who they are and thor is a rb

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

Okay, I buy that Thor is the other mafia and that S_S is town. Kind of want to just vote Thor now, honestly; I'm really wary of plans more complicated than "find the scum, kill the scum" outside of situations like endgame dilemmas.

In fact, I will.

VOTE: Thor

S_S, why did you expect to be doing this with my slot and not Thor's?

can we hold off voting until weve heard from everyone? i understand your concerns but we are 5-2-1 now so it could either be 4-2 or 3-1-1 or 4-1-1 (if guardian does exist and blocks a kill) or we could go into the night as 5-1-1 and hope both sides cross kill and end the game already so we do need to think of those complicated plans and weigh our options

what makes you think thor wont cooperate?

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

Because I thought your slot was mafia for a while.

Right now my PoE pool is {you, Lang, Comm} and I don't think you're scum with Lang so I think that means lynch Comm but I'm nowhere near confident enough in that yet and I doubt Thor is going to cooperate. (Which is a shame because you probably would have )

while i agree theres no guarantee thor will cooperate i think we have enough time to consider all what ifs
i mean what if he does cooperate and shoots a ww? what if he cooperates but ends up hitting town? what if he doesnt comply but still hits a ww? what if he purposefully shoots town?

obviously what really matters is whether thor shoots town or ww regardless of whether her will cooperate so we also need to be spot on if we leash him or go the safer route and lynch him today so that needs to be well thought about

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

VOTE: Umlaut I can do either Aristo or Umlaut, maybe we should tie Thor's kill to someone so if someone else dies instead of that person, we know to lynch Thor for not playing ball.

Thor is not being lynched today. He's been outed to the Werewolves. He HAS to play ball or his faction will auto-lose. The WW's CANNOT leave him alive so you will see the WW's attempt to lynch him today. Smart town is going to defend Thor because he's going to draw almost every single night kill and so long as we have a Guardian in play we can potentially deny the wolves of ANY chance to take out the threat to them.

So voting Thor today will not be tolerated one bit.

i beg to differ. it depends on whether the wws think they need an extra kill. i get that you are leaving him as bait for the nk but if we mislynch today 4-2-1 and wws kill someone else 3-2-1 then either we direct thor to shoot someone and be spot on on it 3-1-1 or risk coming back tomorrow as 2-2-1

this is why we need to tread carefully bc once the ball rolls theres no stopping it and we have no room for errors

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

Do you not trust my read on Ari to be correct?

i know this is not for me but ill say trusting you is one thing and trusting your read is another
i do believe youre town but i dont know how well you know ari or how good a player you are (no offense)

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

I trust anyone who would vote Thor in this situation is a wolf. Thor is dead without town so he can no longer work against us until both wolves are dead. Because if he does, he'll be open season for town AND Wolves.

Aris could very well be the other wolf, but Umlaut is playing very wolf like right now.

i have no argument against this logic but still want to think it through bc what if were wrong or what if both scum factions shoot town or what if both happen to be true
can we please not rush a lynch here? we know where most people stand already so we need to decide which route gives us a better chance of winning

your scheme makes sense and could very well end the game tonight if and only if umlaut is ww and both thor and the other ww shoot each other

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

VOTE: Umlaut

I forgot.

what promise? all i saw was a wifom that there is a guardian which could or could not be true

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

oh shit. wrong post quoted

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

I need to think about what S_S is saying re. Ari because this alone makes him my second choice for today's lynch otherwise.

assuming ari is ww do you think his p will defend him so blatantly?

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

i do believe youre town but i dont know how well you know ari or how good a player you are (no offense)

Well I've played 6 games with him as a hydra, so I have a pretty good idea of how he thinks at least.

ok. i didnt know that. so your read does have merit

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

can we please not rush a lynch here? we know where most people stand already so we need to decide which route gives us a better chance of winning

Well of course we shouldn't rush a lynch, but I'm pretty sure leashing Thor is better. If we lynch Thor we get one mislynch if we're lucky, and if we leash him we get at least two in every scenario that I can see.

lets see
worst case scenario we mislynch today 4-2-1
2 town get shot 2-2-1
if we mislynch tomorrow the ww have already won

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

oh and if we lynch thor tomorrow the ww have already won also

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

i see
so who do you think we should lynch? umlaut? or lb?

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

of those three my order of preference would be lang-umlaut-comm
in fact im not feeling comm as scum and titus seemed to trust him

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

wait i have just reviewed my early game notes
thor replaced kantrip whom i thought was busy doing nothing and umlaut is in rorys slot whom i srd bc of his early read list that didnt make much sense then got replaced by nm who did absolutely nothing game related while i had comm as a town lean bc of the replacement (dont ask. i dont remember. thats why i keep notes because the game takes too long real life time and one has a life so cant be expected to keep every little detail in mind and especially so with so many replacements)

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

it says the umlaut slot (as kantrip) had both lb and thor as town and comm as scum which didnt make sense to me then and still doesnt now

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

but you seem to think its either or so we still have a problem here choosing between lb and umlaut

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

of course when i say ib/thor i mean whoever was in that slot back then as i track the slot not the player and thus change the name when they get replaced

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

I am fascinated by the current situation because whther I am town, mafia, OR werewolf my appropriate wincon is to suggest I'm Mafia and play along.

maybe im too thick but how is that?
assuming youre town you cant kill so your only chance of surviving tomorrow is if the real mafia kill your assigned target for you. now what if your assigned target

is

the real mafia?
if youre ww then the same applies, i.e. what if youre required to shoot your own p?
the only way you can pay along here is if you are the real mafia
but seeing how titus crumbed her target i believe you are indeed the mafia and comm explained well how its fair for everyone to leave you alive and leash you
so its ari or lang for me today and nobody wants to lynch lb it seems and wm did ask me to lynch ari today so unless someone can come up with a very good case on someone else or a very convincing argument against this particular lynch my vote is on aris
now can we agree on who thro should be shooting in each case? (i.e. if ari flips ww as most of us would expect him to be, or if he flips town as mainly ss thinks he is)

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

after reading the back and forth between ss & thor im fairly convinced thor is town
i think the mafia is lb and ari is ww which makes his likely p umlaut by poe
so the question now is whether we want to lynch ww or mafia
thor is off the table for me

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

I don't get how you think Thor might be town at all, but I agree with not lynching him, so...

In any event it's definitely better to lynch a werewolf today.
VOTE: Umlaut

he is arguing against your plan trying to show the loopholes in it which does not make sense if he is scum
scum would throw in the lynch me today bit to make you doubt your read on them i.e. they bring it up on hopes it reduces the chance of them being lynched
but they dont argue against the plan itself giving you analytical proof that its actually better to lynch them
that would be increasing the chance of thor getting lynched not decreasing it
if i was scum id argue your plan is bad bc im town so cant kill as you desire me to
i wont be telling you that if im scum its also bad and heres why etc.
all in all i dont see the scum motive from thor to do what he is doing. it was enough for him to say he wont do it cuz he cant kill if he was really scum

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

@thor: actually i still do think ss is town. check back his iso. he has been playing in a certain way that -if he is scum- was working fine so why would he change it now into one that would make him a prime suspect and especially so when you suspect him to be a ww and they are actually doing fine so far.

also if he is ww then why the hell does he not want you lynched in the first place if he thinks youre mafia? isnt that safer for him and his buddy?

i have considered 2 possibilities assuminbg he is ww and one assuming he is mafia and none of them convimced me.
1- ss is ww who knows youre town which necessitates he know who the mafia is and is using you to send the message to the mafia of whom to kill. the problem here is mafia still may not comply and then he will have to lynch you and let them live for yet another day and night which is very risky to his team
2- ss is ww who does believe you are mafia in which case he should be promoting your lynch without hesitation and using the titus crumbs is good enough a reason while he should be the one using the argument you used
3- ss is the mafia and is using you to hide his alignment and intends to shoot the one he himself suggests you shoot at night while providing you as decoy for the wws to shoot. this doesnt have a flaw in it on its own but him pointing out raya signed up for another game while avoiding this one really doesnt make sense as he p. but if I had to choose between ww/mafia and totally exclude him as town if day hes more likely mafia than ww every day of the week for this fight over keeping you alive

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

*if day = id say

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

I think mafia killing Aris tonight benefits both mafia and town. So I think we should leash the shot onto Aris.

youre voting aris and you want him shot? how can this be?
from your second line though i get the feeling you are prepared to switch your vote to umlaut
but has anybody actually considered the math for a no lynch while supposidly leashing thor as mafia turned into town vig?
i mean think about it. what if were wrong about umlaut being ww? remember if we mislynch today we are putting ourselves in a very very bad situation regardless of whether thor is mafia or now and regardless of whether the mafia shot hit a ww or not
of vourse the not part makes our situation much worse but still the situation isnt much better if we were to mislynch today and have 2 kills going through at night

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

VOTE: umlaut

not my preferred lynch but i wont lynch vedith/ss/comm/thor and i worry that theyre turning on each other

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

to elaborate: if i tr the above mentioned 4 then the remaining 3 are the scum by poe
however theres a chance i might be wrong on one of my trs and if so i dont know which one
of the 3 im willing to lynch umlaut is the one im least confident in being scum which makes him not my top priority
so if im wrong about one tr then the scum read im wrong about is umlaut
id still rather lynch in lb/aris but i make it 50-50 they are the 2 wws and we seem to have switched to wanting to lynch mafia if im not misunderstanding

p-edit: he is obvious town to me. his posts do not look like coming from scum at all. that and the flipped jailkeeper trusted him enough to crumb her target specifically to him

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

btw i dont really like the back and forth between you vedith & umlaut starting 1663 through #1670, and if i didnt have a strong tr on you already I might have been inclined to call you out on it for possibly being the ww pair
it looked very much staged which is an example of why not everything that looks suspicious is actually incriminating and i prefer to look on the whole picture than pick on specific incidents like this

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

@comm: if thor is ww then the jk has nothing to with him

@thor: if ari is not ww and is not mafia bc of his interactions with raya then who is? i cant see you as scum and i explained why
i had a strong tr on the vedith slot since early game amd he did nothing to disrupt that read. same with ss. some faulty logic maybe but nothing scummy
comm comes across as a townie who is misguided and titus trusted him and indeed so did whymafia

by poe it has to be aris+lb+umlaut and i cant understand why we are going after each other instead

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

i dunno but wait a few minutes. i think ive got something

p-edit: that was on the comm bit at the end of #1708

and the difference between comm and ari is the two who town read comm are already flipped so i know they were town while the 2 town reading ari are still alive so its a bit less reliable to sheep them but i certainly can see your logic here

but as i said give me a few minutes to check on something

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

ok

VOTE: lang buddha

this is the mafia

lb actually scum claimed in 1660 as precisely being mafia and it went unnoticed even by me on the first read
in his post 1661 he was trying to remedy the situation but it's too late

in 1660 he speaks of a

tracker

and explains the mafia are 2

goons

and i ask you this: why would

town

ever mention a tracker when the flipped pr was a jk?

the answer is withing his post. the mafia are 2 goons and thus knew its a 50% chance there was a tracker and 25% it was a jk and in all cases not killing was better for them
only if it was a solo cop would it have been a bad idea to not kill as it slows down the game and gives the cop more time to catch them

so the mafia deliberately didnt shoot for gear a tracker may report them as both slots raya+realeo/lang were not above suspicion and maybe they thought i might be the tracker as i was suspecting raya the most and also had a feud with realeo on d1 and called him out on the repositioning of his vote on the ari wagon so if i was tracker there was a high chance i would have tracked either of them and if there was a tracker there was a chance there was also a doctor

land tried to correct his mistake by saying there still could be a rb but rb does not coexist with tracker and he didnt even correct the tracker bit

so i went back to check my remarks on realeo and i remembered the above mentioned reason i suspected him plus a reference to post 489 so i went back and ckecked it and it appears realeo had trouble coming up with scum reads while he had too many town reads by his own admission which is also a scum tell bc scum have hardships coming up with reasons to support a scum read and with this being multi ball they didnt want to piss off the wws or trigger the prs if they fos d either

so we hav2 goons with a hailkeeper on their own (1st line of the matrix)

worthy to note lang was also blatantly looking for the wws and not interested in identifying the mafia at all when at the time we were discussing either the lynch or the leash of the mafia. he threw in a few pairs including me+ari and then comm+thor in hopes something sticks and we lynch somewhere that is not him

i am now 100% confident lang buddha is the mafia to the point im willing to take comm on his bet if the site rules allow it. thor is not mafia. lang buddha is

p.s. mafia not shooting explains why thor being jailed looked like blocking all the kills bc there were not kill attempts to begin with

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

again the slip is mentioning a tracker. town already have their mind set on the flipped jk and are thinking of line1/column1 and no way town would mistakingly mention a tracker here and go on to explain the mafia are 2 goons too. even assuming it he meant a jk he still would not have thought the mafia were 2 goons bc its a 50-50 chance the mafia would have a rb. so mentioning both combined along with the no shooting to explain the no kills is buddha slipping bad and im

confident

in this now

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

thor is very likely town
titus did block thor and your quote there suggests her slot jailed thor on n1/n3 and lang on n2 but that is irrelevant
lang admitted to not have submitted a kill in all 3 nights so it doesnt matter who was jailed
so forget titus for a second and look at the case against lb independently. assume the mafia didnt shoot at all like he suggested and you will see he provided the reason why they kept put too and he admitted to knowing theyre 2 goons and all so forget thor for now and lynch the caught mafia and we will still have the advantage of having a guardian or an elder for sure with the only kill coming from the wws and either pr working precisely on them
itd be like a beginners game with a flipped tracker and 1 mislynch and one no lynch going into n2

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

it means we will be 6 tomorrow which is mylo and if were not sure we can no lynch and survive another day if a kill does go through tonight
and if the kill fails then we have a mislynch tomorrow anyway

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

I don't give Lang enough credit to think through not killing to set Thor up.

this is where you go astray my friend. the mafia didnt hold their fire to set up anyone. they did it bc they were afraid there might be a tracker as they are 2 goons so a tracker was a 50% chance
half of that 50% was there to be a doctor so them trying to shoot the tracker could have failed
the other half was a bp and again shooting that would have failed and in both cases it could have resulted in them being found out
i agree no killing is absurd under the circumstances but lets look at it in reverse. do you give lang buddha credit to work it out like that and come with that theory out of thin air? i mightve bought it if he stopped at tracker that he town slipped as in not being attentive enough to the flips but the 2 goons bit gave him away and trying to correct it by saying there still could be a rb but not altering his tracker assumption gave me pause as that is the mind set he is really still locked into. he thought there might be a tracker and decided to hold his fire until such a tracker was lynched or the wws killed them for him
in the other 25% where there was a jk which turned out to be the case no shooting still give confusing results as the norm would be to assume the kill was blocked either from or on the jailed so in hindsight this worked well too

another point is you are forgetting the realeo iso. he came in not voting and ari hokingly called him up on it then he got paranoid with votes accumulating on him then the repositioning of his vote on aris wagon and his interaction with raya were surface level discussing my french back and forth with ari and questioning realeos vote on pmysterious that she never followed up on but they never really got it going on each other nor tried to figure each other out yet he keeps saying he is paranoid of her without explaining and he goes at oldwino isndtead for using rayas same reasoning to sr lane
even in his read lists which he two of them he never mentions raya on either of them but he starts to go mildly aggressive on her when she stopped playing but didnt get replaced

i mean there is nothing at all in their combined isos that could would make it less likely for them to be partners yet there are bits that would make you go this makes sense for being partners

so go iso them simultaneously and see if it changes your mind

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

@ss: actually if there is a bp then the case on lang falls apart as the 2 goons things becomes not a slip
however im fully convinced it was a slip and thus i say there is no bp and it was a solo jk all along
i thus would agree to claim precisely bp/not bp meaning the elder if existent should claim no bp

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

And in case you couldn't guess, I'm not BP.

and neither am i

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

Why have we not lynched the names I gave and won yet?

your vote in on yourself, man. get a grip and remedy the situation, man

on another note: you should be sheeping me for

i am the law

i guess two can play that game although me chanting that got me lynched on d1 in another game and i was the town gunsmith

i was even lynched while i was offline so didnt even get the chance to claim which is very bad practice on d1 generally speaking

also comm and umlaut need to switch their voted if they want to lynch mafia today

if you changed your mind again then guardian if existent should be on buddha while he shoots aris and we probably are better off not lynching today but i think thats a bit riskier than lynching the known scum

if/when buddha flips mafia we know thor is not it but for those who are still in doubt the wws are likely to shoot thor anyway if buddha is not mafia so we need not worry about it

weigh your options not only considering who you might think is more likely scum but also how scum kills are likely to go. even if we lynch thor the wws are likely to shoot buddha but im fully convinced buddha is the mafia here so if either of you isnt 100% on thor its better to vote buddha anyway

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

@umlaut: please read my posts. i made a case on lang that i believe is compelling. i also mentioned that even in the very unlikely case land flips town thor will most likely be shot by the wws. they cant afford to have the mafia alive with the jk already flipped bc he may target one of them. nobody claimed bp so the slip is real. can you argue about that?

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

I claim BP, as in Bitch Please, on jjd's shit case.

this is the shittiest gambit i have ever seem
waiting for everyone else to claim before he does is hardly believable imho
plus -again- if he was bp he would think 50% tracker 50% jk already flipped so his proposition of 2 goons fearing the tracker after the fact is inexplicable

tell u what: if lb flips bp ill quit mafia. if he flips vt ill quit mafia and if he flips ww id still quit mafia. hows that?

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

i no longer have confidence in any of you as ari did flip scum as i was saying all game long.
the one thing that puzzles me if lb flipping town.
it is now 3-1-1 and we have no more room to wiggle. it's either we lynch scum today or we count on them cross killing for us to win. if neither happens we lose.

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

eh. i kinda think thor has a point in voting no lynch as indeed i cant decide between you all. i really did genuinely believe i was on the right track with lb being mafia and that would have put me 3/3 with raya and ari flipping scum. it would also have put us in a much better position today (4-2 with ari being the designated lynch of the day so 3-1 tomorrow, or even 4-1 if the ww hits the bp or the guardian protection target whichever it is). had he flipped scum i probably would have rode my luck with more confidence, but the way it went i kinda do want to give the scum a chance to shoot each other.

the problem here is if they both shoot town and we emerge as 1-1-1 tomorrow as i dont see why they wouldnt just lynch the townie and claim a joint win.

i also noticed a general lack if interest to post much today with the exception of thor which makes me a bit wary, bit i guess that could come from either alignment due to the situation.

ill wait for others to weigh in before i actually vote but i am leaning towards no lynch as well unless someone can come up with a convincing case.

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

alright. so it looks like both ss & umlaut are in favor of no lynch while vedith has no idea. this tells me no case could be presented to change my mind, but ill still not vote yet in case you want to discuss some more. consider my vote is on no lynch already though.

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

you guys are giving me a hard time deciding who is whom. i guess id rather sheep umlaut (the only confirmed townie as we speak) than decide on my own because i have a confession to make: i literally suck in lylo/mylo

that and the fact that ive been town reading you all for most of the game (well, not thor but i came to a strong tr on him yesterday based on his arguments

for

his own lynch)

i went back to my notes from early game and u realized also umlaut's predecessor was not a strong tr because he had comm's slot as a scum read and both lang buddha's slot and thor's as town reads (the former already flipping town still amazes me but makes that read list look a tad better in retrospect)

with umlaut confirmed though that's no issue now but i still have to decide whether he was 2/3 or 1/3 on those particular slots (im too lazy to go back and find the exact post but feel free to iso rory in d1)

so to me its 2 of vedith/thor/ss are scum but i certainly do understand everyone being skeptical about me one way or the other. in fact id be overly suspicious if someone didnt second guess their read on me under the circumstances.

speaking of me if i was scum i must have directly lead the other scum group to shoot my partner. i either overly accused raya on d1 causing her to get shot at night while i either didnt shoot or targeted vedith in particular, or i kept pushing ari all game long insisting he should get lynched or shot. the 2rd option of course is im town.

i dont get the "thor is more likely ww than mafia" argument bc it appears to me that he is more likely to be mafia if he is scum still.

vedith opting not to kill is such plausible play on his part that got me confused. the question is if he really did that (which makes him mafia, which in turn makes thor more likely town)

that leaves ss as the ww but i still dont see him blatantly defending ari this much if he was his partner. the way im used to is a p neither hard defends nor hard busses their p and especially so when there are only 2 of them.

however this game ends ive enjoyed it and will probably learn a couple of things from it. 2 living players have been playing superbly well (the scum duo) and umlaut managing to survive this long without having to claim was also wonderful. i should learn to do that as a pr in the future.

VOTE: no lynch

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

funny that my eye just quote my sig and i realized whenever i shout that the town loses a member. this game i only said it before the lb lynch. the other game i did while i was calling transcend scum and he was but it ended up with me being lynched instead

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

i have nothing more to say today

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

@thor: well, you tricked me as bad as i tricked you. i genuinely thought you were town at the time, but had my doubts resurface later on. i wish i followed ari's read on you and shot you last night instead of vedith whom i was town reading all game long but

your

play made me think otherwise.

anyway, good game everyone. i had fun. it's up to ss now (you invented this setup so you do deserve to decide the winner). i personally would take the 3-way draw but btd seems to think no such thing exists.

@ss: obviously i was the other ww. sorry it came down to this. you do realize no lynch should guarantee you the win bc there's no way either of myself or thor is going to shoot you over the other scum. after all this the town still wins.

also i thought about not killing last night, but the suggestion u should hammer myself in a 4-player 3-way MyLo forced me to try and shoot the mafia instead.

@aris:

sorry

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

@ss: if i had shot thor, would you have voted vedith over me?

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

lol

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

what would you do if:

1- we both decided to shoot you and settle for a draw?
2- one of us decides they've lost anyway so they refrain from shooting the other granting them the win instead of you?

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

the thor i know (ahem) is trustworthy, so i will settle for a draw with you. deal

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

ari was good in the pt. i have no idea why he couldnt match it in this thread.

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

@SS: You played well. my friend. In fact; collectively it was a very good game strategy wise from all 3 factions, and the best part is many had their alignments and roles well undercover until the very last hurdle.

Congrats to the Mafia and WELL PLAYED; Thor.

I would be both happy and proud to play again with you all again.

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

Also I find it hilarious that you kept trying to bus your buddy and I kept not letting you

Yup. That was funny. It was also why obv.town you stayed alive. I told Aris you should be spared because you were the one stopping him from eating rope.

[quote="In post 1960, JJD, good work staying alive! I'm very interested in why you changed to Vedith instead of Thor as that NK![/quote]

I wasn't quite sure which of them was the real Mafia. Check the PT as I explained how my thought went that night.

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

Your playstyle probably needs work if you want to shift voting a scum to lynching a scum.

I have to second this. I don't dislike you, Lang, but you are very difficult to play with and I want to lynch you more than not regardless of alignment. This stops your arguments from having any levity.

^This! Very much this. I did want to lynch you regardless, and it didn't help when you provided that theory leading me to believe you are the remaining mafia.