Open 692 - Two-fold Matrix6 (Game Over)

[Kasumeat]

OK, caught up. I'm going out shortly, but some quick thoughts and questions:

I like the Ari wagon. Pretty much no content in his posts, and doesn't seem to be looking to accomplish anything. Has anybody played with him before? Is he normally this low-content?

I agree with my predesessor, Katnip pinged me really hard at first. I hate that "reaction test" shit. It's a tool that scum can use to justify scummy posting. However, a few things give me pause: I really like his later posts, and they appear to show genuine scumhunting. Although as has been pointed out, this is multiball. They also seem astute enough that it makes me believe that the "reaction test" could be legit and not just him covering his tracks. On the other hand, I also don't like, his interaction with Whymafia and Dredd, as mentioned below. I do like his reaction to Oldwino's reads and agree 100%. Still leaning scum, but less so than when I went back to re-read to compose this. @Katnip, your account is ~2 weeks old, but do you have prior Mafia experience?

My strongest SR is Whymafia. I've played with him before and I townread him very quickly (when he was town) but it's the opposite here. I really, really don't like his push on Dredd. It just seems like scum stretching to find something to push someone for. Does anybody here really think that "what do you possibly hope to accomplish with a vote???" is a legit thing from a townie? Maybe I'm biased because I tend to play more on shorter-deadline sites, but isn't voting people to get them to post totally standard here too?

VOTE: Whymafia



I agree that Rory is looking town here.

Reads to me like genuine misunderstanding over a scummy contradiction, though.

I endorse this product.

Realeo - any reason for the Ari vote besides a gut feel?

There is something called from EpicMafia called fillering. It's a condition where scum are unable to fake scumhunting so he talk something else. Methink that is what happening.

actually scum can scumhunt because it's multiball.

the thing you pointed out with Realo makes me want to give him a fair amount of town cred.

@Whymafia, I don't understand what you mean here. Could you clarify? You want to give Realo towncred here? Why?

[Kasumeat]

[quote="In [url=viewtopic.php?p=9363583#p9363583]If he was scum, he would know it's multiball
Of course it's not a completely good method, but I feel like a townie would make this mistake
Additionally, you're voting me for a theory reason? That seems stupid lol. That seems to be reaching. It is of my opinion that just voting someone does nothing to get them to post, it just seems towny. I'm not going to vote someone for it, but it pings me, and supports a scum read if more evidence/gut comes into play[/quote]

OK, now I get what you're saying about the multiball, but I'm not sure I agree. I don't think it's significantly more likely to come from a clueless townie as it is to come from scum who is just making a fake case a little carelessly.

I'm not voting you for a theory reason, I'm voting you because you're accusing somebody of being scummy because he's putting a vote on a lurker and encouraging that lurker to participate. That is very scummy of you. And meta.

[Kasumeat]

EBWOP

Of course it's not a completely good method, but I feel like a townie would make this mistake
Additionally, you're voting me for a theory reason? That seems stupid lol. That seems to be reaching. It is of my opinion that just voting someone does nothing to get them to post, it just seems towny. I'm not going to vote someone for it, but it pings me, and supports a scum read if more evidence/gut comes into play

OK, now I get what you're saying about the multiball, but I'm not sure I agree. I don't think it's significantly more likely to come from a clueless townie as it is to come from scum who is just making a fake case a little carelessly.

I'm not voting you for a theory reason, I'm voting you because you're accusing somebody of being scummy because he's putting a vote on a lurker and encouraging that lurker to participate. That is very scummy of you. And meta.

[Kasumeat]

I agree that almost the entirety of Judge's posting is useless whining, but I don't the scummy intention there. He's clearly being defensive, rude, and sarcastic, but those are more player-specific traits than alignment-specific. Is there anything that about him that suggests something other than bad townie to you? What I see from him is a very simple approach to the game which he's totally obsessed with, but it's not necessarily a scummy one. I'm not saying I TR him, but it looks like this has been a pretty slow game from everyone and I've seen a LOT of new townies play very similarly.

Still disagree on the "townslip" from Realeo. Realeo seems like an experienced player to me, and from an experienced player, the more I think about it, the more I think that that fillering comment is more likely to be an attempt of scum to throw shade than it is to be a townie mistaken about the setup. As scum, one becomes totally focused on looking for "scummy" things that other players have said, and when you find them, you call people out on them. It's easy to get into the mentality of "fillering is scummy, I see a townie fillering, I'm going to push him now" and forget that this is multiball. As town, one has to look for the motivation behind words, not just at the words themselves, so I think a player is one is more likely to realise that multiball games are different and realise that every player in this game will be scumhunting to some degree.

[Kasumeat]

Speaking of Realo, in case it wasn't clear, I don't like him quite as much as most of you seem to. That defensiveness in the RVS is a little strange, and I don't like this interaction either:

I'm here, but it's early so what would you actually like me to address?

Things.

Realeo accuses Ari of not providing enough content, but then when Ari asks what he should respond to, he gives him nothing. Looks like Realeo doesn't actually want Ari to provide content, he just wants him to get lynched.

[Kasumeat]

New guy, you said you like my wagon and voted off of it. Why?

I very clearly stated that Whymafia was my strongest scumread. I also asked if your posting this game was typical of you, and was hoping to get a response to that, though I didn't. You were also on V/LA at the time (and are no longer?) so I didn't expect pushing you at that time to be as productive as pushing a player who was able to actively post and who had escaped scrutiny so far.

[Kasumeat]

Rory, what are your reads other than Ari?

[Kasumeat]

I don't see the logic in questioning the person who you think has scum on his wagon... That doesn't flow

oldwino, most of your scumread reasoning are "post feels empty."

What do you mean with post feels empty? I think my post is the fullest. You can't have people start talking about ppmysterious if I don't start that. I advance the game. Townread me.

And how lane is forced? I think he's the one who progresses the game. He is the one who points out the contradiction of ppmysterious.

And how does "me not noticing PP replaces Gamma" is scumread?

Woah. Woah. Realeo. You seems so defensive.

Because the readlist doesn't makes senses.

If Aristo is a scumlean, I'm fine.

But if Aristo is null, I don't understand why PP is a scum but Aristo is a null.

By 'empty' I mean posting but about neutral stuff. Not analyzing, just commenting.
I didn't really see PM's comments as contradictions. Thought Lane was stretching to say so (so forced).
And not noticing when someone replaces in seems like fake 'laziness' so seemed scummy.

None of my reads are strong, all leans are just slightly so, whichever way they go.
Trying to get some comments, some reactions, stir things up just a little.

I'll do another re-read and critically examine my own leanings as soon as I can, hope tomorrow.

And I do think inactivity is suspicious. Keeping one's head down and not giving anyone anything to criticize is scummy. Not necessarily scum, but scummy. So far, we don't have much to go on.

Do you think it makes sense to question someone when you think scum is found in the people who vote that person? And not question anyone on the wagon, where you said scum were?

This is a multiball game

[Kasumeat]

Whoops, I mean to quote this post, not the one I quoted above:

I don't see the logic in questioning the person who you think has scum on his wagon... That doesn't flow

[Kasumeat]

Lane, please give me thoughts on the game. Alarmed that his lack of contribution is going unnoticed

I've noticed it, but I would never vote him for it. Wouldn't accomplish anything.

[Kasumeat]

Lane, please give me thoughts on the game. Alarmed that his lack of contribution is going unnoticed

I've noticed it, but I would never vote him for it. Wouldn't accomplish anything.

But what was the point in saying its multiball in response to my post. Tell me about that

You're saying it's illogical to SR the person with scum on his wagon. But because it's multiball, there can be scum on scum's wagon, no bussing required.

[Kasumeat]

And who were you agreeing with when you said you agree rory is town?

Wino.

Lane is really climbing in my SRs. Not putting forth any opinions or making any contributions. Just look at this useless white noise question. Does it actually serve a purpose other than upping his postcount?

[Kasumeat]

I post when there's something I need to post about.

That's a very, very scummy way to play mafia.

[Kasumeat]

Lane has joined Ari and Whymafia in the "players I would murder without hesitation" camp.

Kasu - Do you still think lane's lack of contribution is not worth voting him over, or have his newest posts changed your mind?

EBWOP

Of course it's not a completely good method, but I feel like a townie would make this mistake
Additionally, you're voting me for a theory reason? That seems stupid lol. That seems to be reaching. It is of my opinion that just voting someone does nothing to get them to post, it just seems towny. I'm not going to vote someone for it, but it pings me, and supports a scum read if more evidence/gut comes into play

OK, now I get what you're saying about the multiball, but I'm not sure I agree. I don't think it's significantly more likely to come from a clueless townie as it is to come from scum who is just making a fake case a little carelessly.

I'm not voting you for a theory reason, I'm voting you because you're accusing somebody of being scummy because he's putting a vote on a lurker and encouraging that lurker to participate. That is very scummy of you. And meta.

Could you clarify the first point for me? Are you saying that it's just as likely to be a town slip as it is to be scum making a fake case? Or that you think scum is more likely?

Could you also expand on why WhyMafia calling Judge's lurker vote a scumtell is so scummy to you?

I think that somebody saying "he's legitimately scumhunting, therefore not scum" is a logical fallacy in a multiball game, and for an experienced player to do so I think it's slightly more likely to be coming from
a) scum who got lazy and pushed player how they normally would in a 1-scum-faction game, than
b) a townie who forgot it's multiball or made the same mistake

There is very obviously nothing scummy about pressuring a lurker to participate. It's townie, if anything. Pushing a player because they did something townie is scummy. Seriously, why would you even ask this question? Do you think otherwise?

[Kasumeat]

Example 1 (paraphrased): "I like the Ari wagon because his posts seem empty. Does anyone have experience with him? Is this typical behaviour?"
I don't think anyone answered this question but I also don't get the impression Kasu was interested in the answer. It again feels like a way to be less committal with a read.

Example 2 (paraphrased): "WhyMafia calling Judge scum for voting a lurker is scummy. Does anyone see a town reason to do this?"
Again, I doubt Kasu is interested in an answer to this question. I also disagree with the premise of his WhyMafia read as stated but I'm going to wait and see how he replies to my questions to him.

Ari answered my question about him, telling him that he's normally very active. That answer certainly didn't change my SR on him.

Example 2 is bullshit. Here are my posts on Lane:

Lane, please give me thoughts on the game. Alarmed that his lack of contribution is going unnoticed

I've noticed it, but I would never vote him for it. Wouldn't accomplish anything.

And who were you agreeing with when you said you agree rory is town?

Wino.

Lane is really climbing in my SRs. Not putting forth any opinions or making any contributions. Just look at this useless white noise question. Does it actually serve a purpose other than upping his postcount?

I post when there's something I need to post about.

That's a very, very scummy way to play mafia.

I acknowledge his lurking/low-content, which is something that AFAIK only Whymafia had done at this point. Then I explain that I'm becoming more suspicious of him and I point out a garbage scummy post of his. And then I say his playing is "very, very scummy." And you're accusing me of being non-committal? And I'll make this very clear: My top 3 scumreads are Ari, Whymafia, and Lane. And you're right behind them.

[Kasumeat]

Kantrip, that's not what happened:

VOTE: davesaz

need the replacement to talk more

What would a vote on that accomplish?

WhyMafia because of so few posts and those were empty. He voted Gamma and unvoted when questioned, voted Ari for no reason and questioned Judge's vote on Dave when I think Judge's vote made sense (getting Dave to participate).

When did I vote Ari? I was never questioned on my vote on Gamma? It was a joke vote/RVS banter. There is no point to vote on someone if they're inactive. And 1 vote on someone to pressure someone to post hardly ever works. If they go through D1 without posting hardly any stances, that's a cause for concern.

Judge - Complained game is moving too slowly, voted Dave to try to move things along which I was thinking of doing. Scum would let us wallow in RVS as long as possible.

I have this as scum. That vote literally does nothing. And complaints are just complaints. Back it up with action, his vote on Dave barely does that.

He clarifies that it's scummy later, but Whymafia's initial accusation comes immediately after Dredd's lurker vote.

I do agree with you about Dredd being very concerned with himself. The reason I don't SR him for it as I would most players is his posting is quite rude and disrespectful, and being self-centred is very typical of rude and disrespectful people. He's also done enough things I TR him for that he falls just to the town side of null for me.

[Kasumeat]

Whoops, I'm not responding to example 2 here with my "bullshit" comment, but rather your accusation of me being non-committal with Lane.

Example 1 (paraphrased): "I like the Ari wagon because his posts seem empty. Does anyone have experience with him? Is this typical behaviour?"
I don't think anyone answered this question but I also don't get the impression Kasu was interested in the answer. It again feels like a way to be less committal with a read.

Example 2 (paraphrased): "WhyMafia calling Judge scum for voting a lurker is scummy. Does anyone see a town reason to do this?"
Again, I doubt Kasu is interested in an answer to this question. I also disagree with the premise of his WhyMafia read as stated but I'm going to wait and see how he replies to my questions to him.

Ari answered my question about him, telling him that he's normally very active. That answer certainly didn't change my SR on him.

Example 2 is bullshit. Here are my posts on Lane:

Lane, please give me thoughts on the game. Alarmed that his lack of contribution is going unnoticed

I've noticed it, but I would never vote him for it. Wouldn't accomplish anything.

And who were you agreeing with when you said you agree rory is town?

Wino.

Lane is really climbing in my SRs. Not putting forth any opinions or making any contributions. Just look at this useless white noise question. Does it actually serve a purpose other than upping his postcount?

I post when there's something I need to post about.

That's a very, very scummy way to play mafia.

I acknowledge his lurking/low-content, which is something that AFAIK only Whymafia had done at this point. Then I explain that I'm becoming more suspicious of him and I point out a garbage scummy post of his. And then I say his playing is "very, very scummy." And you're accusing me of being non-committal? And I'll make this very clear: My top 3 scumreads are Ari, Whymafia, and Lane. And you're right behind them.

[Kasumeat]

Example 2 is bullshit because the question you're referring to is very clearly rhetorical:

My strongest SR is Whymafia. I've played with him before and I townread him very quickly (when he was town) but it's the opposite here. I really, really don't like his push on Dredd. It just seems like scum stretching to find something to push someone for. Does anybody here really think that "what do you possibly hope to accomplish with a vote???" is a legit thing from a townie? Maybe I'm biased because I tend to play more on shorter-deadline sites, but isn't voting people to get them to post totally standard here too?

VOTE: Whymafia

[Kasumeat]

I post when there's something I need to post about.

That's a very, very scummy way to play mafia.

I like the convenience from you here. How is it scummy though? Hypothetically if course since you said I'm only posting to up my vote count

And a question like this confirms it, but here goes: It's in the interest of town to exchange thoughts and information freely and frequently. It's in the interest of scum to post as little as one can get away with without getting lynched for inactivity.

[Kasumeat]

@Dredd, what do you think of Something Smart?

Lane is... doing stuff. A lot of stuff. He's asking questions and being aggressive. I think it's towny and I don't see anything major I don't like about him.

[Whymafia] pinged my gut in a few places. 53 is a really weak and easy reason for a vote. 115 doesn't sound like a town way to approach townreading although it could just be speaking style. 120 didn't really address the reason why you weren't contributing much, and it sounds like an excuse post scum might make.

Whymafia's 120 and Lane's 211 are almost completely identical explanations for their lack of contribution to the game at that point. Why is 120 scummy and 211 townie?

[Kasumeat]

I never said 211 was towny, but I think that the difference between these two situations is that lane clearly isn't using it as an excuse not to post, whereas WhyMafia might be.

The scumminess is not in the fact that WhyMafia said it (since on some level everybody only ever posts when they feel like it), but in the fact that he used it to defend against accusations of insufficient content.

(Emphasis mine)

My 204 is very clearly an accusation of Lane having insufficient content:

Lane is really climbing in my SRs. Not putting forth any opinions or making any contributions. Just look at this useless white noise question. Does it actually serve a purpose other than upping his postcount?

His 211 is very clearly a response to that:

And who were you agreeing with when you said you agree rory is town?

Wino.

Lane is really climbing in my SRs. Not putting forth any opinions or making any contributions. Just look at this useless white noise question. Does it actually serve a purpose other than upping his postcount?

I didn't remember anyone town reading rory. And that comment seemed really out of place. Possibly planting the rory is town seed.

Funny I ask you a couple questions and all of a sudden I'm climbing your scum reads. That's some pretty serious poo you're flinging right there.

To answer your question, yes it does.

Do you know a lot of scum who post just to have a higher post count?

I post when there's something I need to post about.

He quotes me and literally says "to answer your question" yet you're saying that his response isn't him "defending against [an accusation] of insufficient content," while Whymafia's is? You are blatantly ignoring reality to push Whymafia (and me) and defend Lane right now. I was unsure about you after that strange contradiction between your thoughts on the two of them. But when you follow it up by doubling-down with a blatant lie instead of a re-examination of the contradictory nature of your read, it makes it obvious that you're not a thinking townie, you're lying scum.

VOTE: Something Smart

[Kasumeat]

And before Kantrip pushes me more for not stating the incredibly fucking obvious: I think Lane is SS's scumbro.

[Kasumeat]

Except Lane DOESN'T have insufficient content.

This is doesn't matter, because
a) it's false, especially at the time of that exchange
b) even if it wasn't false, it doesn't change the fact that I accused him of it and he defended himself
My case on you would still stand even if you were right. You're lying to push a case on people. The fact that you're trying to push this longshot angle—which is neither true nor somehow capable of clearing you of the OTHER lie you're pushing—instead of actually addressing my case I made is basically an admission of guilt.

[Kasumeat]

Where's the lie?

Quote a statement I made that is probably false.

I never said 211 was towny, but I think that the difference between these two situations is that lane clearly isn't using it as an excuse not to post, whereas WhyMafia might be. The scumminess is not in the fact that WhyMafia said it (since on some level everybody only ever posts when they feel like it), but in the fact that he used it to defend against accusations of insufficient content.

OK, you could be telling the truth, but I don't think so. I interpreted this paragraph to be saying:

A) both Whymafia and Lane made functionally identical statements
B) the difference between the two situations is that Lane has been posting more since those posts, but Whymafia not so much, AND Whymafia "used it to defend against accusations of insufficient content."

B) is very clearly a lie, because very clearly Lane

was

using it "to defend against accusations of insufficient content." This is what I believed. If it's true, then unquestionably you're lying.


However, right here . . .

And I never said that Lane wasn't using it as a defense against accusations of insufficient posting.
I said he wasn't using it as an excuse not to post, because he is posting a lot.

. . .you're arguing that the correct interpretation is that D) and E), below, are independent:

C) both Whymafia and Lane made functionally identical statements
D) the difference between the two situations is that Lane has been posting more since their posts, but Whymafia not so much
E) the statement was not inherently scummy, but rather it's scummy when used "to defend against accusations of insufficient content"

While this would mean that you're not lying, the problem with this is that if this interpretation is correct, then D) does not affect E). Thus, it WOULD be scummy coming from Lane, but you very clearly claim that don't find that statement scummy from him. You are simultaneously arguing that both interpretations are true at the same time, which is obviously impossible. My brain didn't reach this interpretation at first because it's not the more logical one.

Now, upon processing this, I'm no longer certain that you're intentionally lying, and thus I'm less certain you're scum. It's conceivable that you're are just a townie making a case with inherently contradictory logic. Town do that from time to time. But it comes more often from scum. You're not the slam-dunk scum I thought you were, but still up there, especially coupled with the fact that you're defending Lane, who is SR by myself and many others in this game.

[Kasumeat]

Reading the interaction again, I still think Realeo not thinking about multiball is a townslip.

Townies only need to concern themselves with finding scum, and prior to any scum flips we don’t need to worry about multiple factions or connections to other scum players.

At this point in the game they’re effectively all the same so it makes sense to base reads off of things you typically would look for. Scum, on the other hand, is very aware of the nature of the setup because they know their partner and they know there is another team they have to worry about. A scum player will know from the get-go that they can scumhunt legitimately without having to fake it. For that reason, I sincerely believe Realeo townslipped.

As a PSA, I want to point out that your statement I've highlighted here is only half true. Even D1 Scumhunting is different in multiball, and a townie should be aware of that. One of the scumtells I always look for is a player TRing a very scummy-looking townie for very weak reasons, hoping to get towncred for defending a player about to get mislynched. But you probably won't see that here, since scum will probably SR that player too. There are other more nuanced differences too, even before the first night, such as scum having to be a little more scared of looking too town because of the other faction's NK, while at the same time it's easier for them to look town because they're able to legitimately scumhunt. These are things we should have in mind.

That said, upon reflection on who's more likely to miss these things and his recent posting among other factors, I'm now leaning town on Realeo, so I don't dispute your other points.

[Kasumeat]

Your D) and E) are close, but not exactly right. I think what you're not realizing (intentionally or not) is that you and I have a different definition of "content". So the interpretation I intended was:
F) the difference between the two situations is that Lane was posting enough content when he was accused, but WhyMafia wasn't
G) the statement is not inherently scummy, but it's scummy when used as an excuse to not post sufficient content. This can only be achieved if:
------ X) The player is not giving enough content (

And in my opinion this applies only to WhyMafia, not to Lane

)
------ Y) The player is accused of not giving enough content, and uses said statement as a defense (This does apply to both of them)

So if you want to debate this point more, the proper point to debate is F). Hopefully at some point I can explain why I think Lane did have enough content, but I think it's fairly clear; his posts compared to WhyMafia's were longer, had more interactions, and had less fluff. (This from memory; I know he had some fluff but it didn't pad his postcount as much as WhyMafia's did.)

G) is not what you said though:

The scumminess is not in the fact that WhyMafia said it (since on some level everybody only ever posts when they feel like it), but in the fact that he used it to defend against accusations of insufficient content.

Are you saying that it is?

[Kasumeat]

OK. If you had admitted to and corrected the contradiction shortly after it was brought to your attention I would feel a bit better about you, but it took a half dozen posts of mine focused entirely on pointing it out to you before you admitted the obvious. Why did it take you so long?

[Kasumeat]

I would really like to hear your thoughts on the other players in this game, Ari.

[Kasumeat]

OK. If you had admitted to and corrected the contradiction shortly after it was brought to your attention I would feel a bit better about you, but it took a half dozen posts of mine focused entirely on pointing it out to you before you admitted the obvious. Why did it take you so long?

I don't think it was a contradiction so much as an imprecision in terms; I do think it was WhyMafia using that as a defense that was scummy, but the part that I didn't explicitly say was that I thought he might have been trying to hide behind that as an excuse for not posting more. Whereas I obviously didn't and don't think that Lane was lacking in content and therefore his assertion that he posted when he felt like it was perfectly fine. (In fact although I read that exchange I didn't even remember that Lane was defending himself against accusations of insufficient content because I didn't think he had insufficient content.)

In any event, I don't think "admitted" is the right word because what that exchange did was help you understand exactly what I meant. I think my thought process was clear even if my words weren't exactly, and I'm actually curious as to why you feel worse about me than you would if I'd resolved the issue immediately.

Pedit: Ooh ooh pick me!

You very clearly said that the scummy thing was using that phrase to defend against an accusation of low/no-content, yet despite the fact that they both did so, only Whymafia was scum. That is a contradiction. You then admitted that while you did say the above, you meant something else. That's an admission.

Anyways, I'm going to drop this now because I'm just getting tunneled on you and I think I've made it clear why you're scum. Right now we need to decide on a lynch, but we currently have 6 (!) players who haven't posted for 48 hours. I do like the increased activity from Ari lately, but the content doesn't impress me. He's very clearly not paying much attention to this game, with us being 2 weeks in, and him apparently still not having an opinion on half the players in the game, and making posts like these which indicate he's not really reading the game:

[Kasumeat], you said you like my wagon and voted off of it. Why?

(I explained why in the very same post he refers to here, which was apparently unimportant enough for him not to read fully.

Okay, Imma do those burning questions Kaus had for me and Iso Oldwino.

I can't promise much after that, but I mean, I've got a good idea of my reads from the prior Isos and I'm happy to get this going, especially close to deadline!

(The questions were from Kantrip.)
Laziness generally actually makes me lean a little more towards useless townie than scum, but the self-centred perspective—only really posting when pressed to do so by direct questions or votes/FoSes—that Ari is obviously skimming this game from makes me lean scum. Still like this wagon.

PM is still null for me. I would rather not vote this slot toDay unless we get a replacement and enough of a deadline extension to sort them out. Would only vote to avoid no-lynch.

I still like the Lane lynch, but I'm less certain we have enough to make that happen. Same for SS.

VOTE: Ari
If you're actually town Ari, please post and convince me otherwise.

[Kasumeat]

Speaking of which, of the wagons you see actually happening toDay, which do you like most Ari?

[Kasumeat]

Also, thanks for not announcing L-1!
Really classy of you!

Shit, I'll admit, that was bad. I didn't see Oldwino's vote and it's been over a day since the last VC.

[Kasumeat]

As for lynch vs. no-lynch, I could see no-lynching in multiball if there were no good candidates, but I don't see why we would when there are several.

[Kasumeat]

I think we might be able to lynch Lane too.

[Kasumeat]

Not that you two have any interest in that

[Kasumeat]

UNVOTE: Ari
For now while I look at Wino again. He was an early TR for me but I'll take another look.

[Kasumeat]

So what does trouble me about Oldwino is that he's always concerned with how others view his voting. From his very first post in RVS. He also has a few instances of SRing people but not really following up, and I don't like his TR on Kantrip which is basically that he's posting a lot therefore is town.

However, what I do really like about him is that he has so many of the same feelings about this game as me. His reads are very, very similar to mine. He has the same frustrations that I do with Lane, for example. I hate playing with low-effort posters, especially those who don't express themselves clearly. And his interaction (or lack thereof) with Lane shows a lack of concern with self-image which reads townie to me. And he's had other similar interactions where he's admitted that it was more emotion than logic driving his decisions. Some scum are capable of this, but it comes a lot more from town. I feel his frustration with the fairly slow pace of this game. I had the exact same feeling as him about Ari as him of being frustrating with Ari's low-content and just being content to SR him and move on until I saw something that convinced me otherwise. I feel the same in that there are lot of players who seem scummy in this game.

There's just way too much of Wino's posting that expresses exactly how I feel about this game for me to do anything but TR him hard. Whymafia, if you recall our last game together, I had the same feeling about Boonskies, a town player I'd been wavering in my read on, right before he was modkilled. He did some things that pinged the logical side of my scumdar, but his emotions were identical to mine and that's something really, really hard for scum to fake.

If anybody would like to consider a Lane or SS lynch, I'm happy to, otherwise my vote's going back on Ari.

[Kasumeat]

Eh, why this is a scumread? Given oldwino is a new player in this site, these shout paranoid town instead scum?

Why would scum not be (more) paranoid? It's more of a newb tell than anything, but I find it slightly scummy.

Given the consistency of Kasumeat @ fosing both me and S_S, I'm townleaning Kasumeat.

Focusing you? I've barely mentioned you recently other than to say that I was feeling a little better than you since my initial impression. Though your reads are so drastically different from mine that it does raise my suspicion. And then . . .

Oooh, I just realized something.

VOTE: No Lynch

It would be anti-town to explain what do I realize.

My question for oldwino still stands, however.

No-lynching is a terrible idea.

This game has protective and investigative roles.

This is a scum-claim right here. The protective and investigative roles we have in this game are EXTREMELY weak and suggesting that we intentionally no-lynch so that we can rely on them instead is extremely fucking scummy. If we have a Cop, he cannot clear town, he can only catch scum, and even that, he can only catch 50% of scum! Without exaggeration that's not even 1/4 as useful as a normal Cop. Very similar story for Tracker, and of course their Werewolf equivalents. And the protective roles are half as useful as well. This is one of the most anti-town suggestions I've ever seen in my life.

VOTE: Realeo

[Kasumeat]

Kasumeat, please read my entire chain of posts as a whole. I have said that I'm not advocating lynch. I said that I lost my appetite for oldwino's lynch.

lol you literally had your vote on No Lynch and were posting reasons why it was a good idea to no lynch

[Kasumeat]

VOTE: No Lynch

This is very clearly advocating not to lynch.

Would a paranoid newb scum posts that page 4 read list? I think a paronoid newb scum would be too scared to do anything?

You're right, I don't think he would, that's another reason I don't think he's scum, despite a few small scummy things about him. What are you getting at here?

It depends.

A no lynch can be a seriously good idea when we're approaching end game.

In early games, no lynching is basically seen as a bad idea if the multiball has no investigative or protective power role (ie. Jungle Ogligarch, Making Friends and Enemies and Enemies, Fire and Ice)

This game has protective and investigative roles.

These two lines that I've bolded, taken together, very clearly say that no lynching is not a bad idea. It is a bad idea. You came out in support of no lynching, then provided (misleading) arguments in favour of it, and now you're saying you don't want to no lynch and never argued in favour of it when you definitely did. I feel really, really good about this vote.

[Kasumeat]

I just had a game end where the person posting like that (Alchemist) was scum-- he had a solid ISO and mostly reasonable points but I couldn't shake the feeling that his interactions were just made to appear like scumhunting and that he wasn't really interacting genuinely, which was one of the reasons I lynched him. I won't disagree that town can play like that, but it's not a strong way to play as town (whereas it's a moderately good way to play as scum).

☑ Meta based argument
☑ Meta based argument on player X using player Y's meta
☑ "Solid ISO, mostly reasonable points, definitely scum"
☑ OMGUS

Very safe to say that SS has solved this one, let's go home boys

[Kasumeat]

Also how is it OMGUS? If I remember correctly I scumread you first and then you scumread me back.

Haha this is true, I'm just drinking and feeling sassy

[Kasumeat]

Regardless, this is the playstyle I use in every game (because I'm always town)

[Kasumeat]

Why aren't you interacting with players trying to sort them?

lol

[Kasumeat]

I just looked up the most recent completed game in your topics (Mini 1905) and reading your ISO it doesn't look like you used it there.

Why aren't you interacting with players trying to sort them?

Counterpoint: This is a blatant lie and he's hoping you won't actually look at that game. But here it is in case you actually want to bother, look for yourself: viewtopic.php?f=53&t=71640

[Kasumeat]

My play is similar in that it's aggressive, guileless, and I push people who do scummy things. It's mostly methodical but with occasional outbursts of emotion, mostly when I get pushed by terrible cases or think I've caught scum.

[Kasumeat]

And honestly that's enough of this 1v1, it's distracting from the big picture which is making sure we don't take your incredibly scummy advice by no lynching

[Kasumeat]

Here is a question to everyone: Realeo is 100% lying about not advocating for a no-lynch. Does this bother you? Why or why not?

[Kasumeat]

Here is a question to everyone: Realeo is 100% lying about not advocating for a no-lynch. Does this bother you? Why or why not?

Kinda.

He didn't exactly "advocate for it" but he made a very strong non-case which I almost sheeped.

The reversal is weird.

A vote for No Lynch is how one says "we should no lynch today," no? That's advocating for it.

[Kasumeat]

Especially when backed up by his argument about how investigative & protective roles make it not a bad idea to no lynch

[Kasumeat]

Not really. I've gotten a little snarky with you right now in response to your attempt to gaslight me, but nothing serious.

If it's not scum-motivated lying, what's the town-motivated reason for him lying?

[Kasumeat]

No, because it's not scum-motivated. If Realeo is scum, the best result for him is to lynch any player not of his faction.

And for that matter, how do you know with 100% certainty his motivation?

[Kasumeat]

Or that we're not about to lynch his scumbro?

[Kasumeat]

I misspoke: it might be scum motivated for other reasons, but it's not directly in his faction's favor.

How the fuck do you know what faction he is?

[Kasumeat]

VOTE: SS
Obvious scumslip. SS is Realeo's scumbro.

[Kasumeat]

No, because it's not scum-motivated.

I misspoke: it might be scum motivated for other reasons, but it's not directly in his faction's favor.

SS is OK with Realeo lying, because he knows his motivation, AND his faction. Couldn't be any clearer.

[Kasumeat]

Also for the record, your scumhunting is extremely naive. It assumes that scum are going to make themselves easy to hunt by doing things like blatantly contradicting themselves.

Scum don't do that any more than town. If you want to find scum you actually have to look past what someone is saying and analyze WHY they're saying it. It isn't easy, and if you think you've caught an entire scumteam already you're almost certainly wrong. (And I'm not just saying that because I'm on most of the scumteams you've posited so far; I think most players will agree with me on this.)

Why am I scumhunting all of a sudden and not scum pushing an agenda?

[Kasumeat]

Just scumslip after scumslip, keep 'em coming

[Kasumeat]

Also for the record, your scumhunting is extremely naive. It assumes that scum are going to make themselves easy to hunt by doing things like blatantly contradicting themselves.

Scum don't do that any more than town. If you want to find scum you actually have to look past what someone is saying and analyze WHY they're saying it. It isn't easy, and if you think you've caught an entire scumteam already you're almost certainly wrong. (And I'm not just saying that because I'm on most of the scumteams you've posited so far; I think most players will agree with me on this.)

Here is the motivation behind this post: You know that I'm legitimately scumhunting and want to discredit me. Now, in a multiball game by itself, that doesn't 100% clear me as town, BUT it's contrary to the narrative you've been pushing which is that I'm scum with an agenda. You believe that I believe in my case on you, which is correct.

[Kasumeat]

And the fact that you've been pushing a narrative you don't believe, preceded by three scumslips in a row, makes it clear that you are scum.

[Kasumeat]

Have you never heard of theoreticals??
XD
You kill me!

I could buy that the factional claim in these posts is a theoretical that he's neglected to qualify as such:

No, because it's not scum-motivated. If Realeo is scum, the best result for him is to lynch any player not of his faction.

I misspoke: it might be scum motivated for other reasons, but it's not directly in his faction's favor.

But it's the degree of certainty here that I'm very confident is not theoretical. In a theoretical, one isn't

certain

about a player's motivation like he is here. Look, here's what it looks like when SS discusses the the motivation of a player he isn't scum with:

It's very hard to explain what I don't like about those posts, but I feel like the motivation behind them is "give reads".

It's a different tone, with a lot less certainty.


And look at the response from Realeo:

Can you two stop fighting with each other?

He doesn't give any insight or opinions on this. He just tries to draw everyone's attention away from my case. Exactly what scum would do to try to protect fellow scum who slipped up.

[Kasumeat]

EBWOP:

Have you never heard of theoreticals??
XD
You kill me!

I could buy that the factional claim in these posts is a theoretical that he's neglected to qualify as such:

No, because it's not scum-motivated. If Realeo is scum, the best result for him is to lynch any player not of his faction.

I misspoke: it might be scum motivated for other reasons, but it's not directly in his faction's favor.

But it's the degree of certainty OF MOTIVATION here that I'm very confident is not theoretical. In a theoretical, one isn't

certain

about a player's motivation like he is here. Look, here's what it looks like when SS discusses the the motivation of a player he isn't scum with:

It's very hard to explain what I don't like about those posts, but I feel like the motivation behind them is "give reads".

It's a different tone, with a lot less certainty.


And look at the response from Realeo:

Can you two stop fighting with each other?

He doesn't give any insight or opinions on this. He just tries to draw everyone's attention away from my case. Exactly what scum would do to try to protect fellow scum who slipped up.

[Kasumeat]

I generally agree with you Kantrip, especially about Dredd being really hard to read, Ari looking better and better the more he posts, and Rory starting good and getting scummier and scummier. Obviously I disagree with your read on me, especially since in your post you both call me genuine for posts such as 367 and ingenuine elsewhere. Frankly I'm entirely sure what you mean when you say I have conclusion-based stances, so I can't argue against that other than to say if you care to read any of my games on this site, they're all town and you'll see that it's quite consistent, especially with my previous game (I was slightly more passive early on).

Unfortunately thanks to the deadline extensions, I'm likely going to miss the deadline, and will be V/LA until July 7. This will be my last effort-post until then. I will probably have time to phone post tomorrow, but then I'm on planes for ~36 hours so who knows.

I'm going to do a quick full reads list in case I get lynched while V/LA so you guys have something helpful to go on:

Scummiest

SS
Realeo

Vedith (Lane)
Whymafia
Davesaz
Rory
Crush (PMM)
Ari

Dredd
Kantrip

Oldwino
Raya

Towniest

A lot of scum-leans, I know. But that's very typical for me. As you can see I tend to SR players a lot for anti-town behaviour and inconsistency in logic, and unfortunately there's been a lot this game.

I'm very torn as to whether to claim so early, but I think it's best if I don't.

[Kasumeat]

Kasumeat has me as a scummy player?

Can we lynch this slot please?

You have literally zero content since joining the game. I, like almost everyone else, scumread Lane, and you've done nothing to change that.

[Kasumeat]

No, only Whymafia in this game

[Kasumeat]

Because he's consistently full of crap. Consistency isn't really a towntell IMO, and especially not when your reasons make no sense.

If I was actually full of crap, you've have some evidence to back up this claim, but you don't. You've resorted to just blatantly lying and hoping it sticks.

Well, I don't think he can get through 4 town games (3 of which he was NK'd in) with honestly believing that what he's doing is scumhunting; so I think it's more likely that he rolled scum for the first time and doesn't know how to sound convincing.

RIGHT FUCKING HERE YOU ARE ADMITTING THAT IM PLAYING EXACTLY THE FUCKING SAME AS I HAVE IN MY OTHER TOWN GAMES. YET ARGUING THAT IM SCUM. FUCKING LYNCH THIS HOLY FUCK THERE IS ABOSLUTELY ZERO FUCKING DOUBT

[Kasumeat]

VOTE: SS

LITERALLY NOT MOVING THIS EVER UNTIL ONE OF US DIES

[Kasumeat]

FUCKING LYNCH ME FOR THAT I DONT GIVE A FUCK

[Kasumeat]

Hello game, I've landed and got a chance to catch up. Just on my phone for the time being, unfortunately.

I've played in a game recently where NM replaced in relatively late. He was town, and in the short period of time he was alive before getting lynched, he basically did nothing but make a few posts saying "I'm town!" So his play here is fairly similar and I'd consider it NAI but I've never seen any indication that he ever does anything useful even if he is town.

SS still looks like scum. Basically the only thing that made him reconsider me was that his wagon was failing because i was being TR by too many people.

I still hate Realeo's no lunch push, but other than that i gotta say he looks really damn town lately. I just worry I'm giving him too much town cred because he TRs me so hard and it's easy to give people more credit than they're worth because of that. Back to nullish for me.

Vedith is so scummy that he's entered the too-scummy-to-be-scum? camp for me. I especially hate his early "guys who should i vote for I'm just a poor Townie who's in over my head :-):-):-):-) tee hee" while also flat out saying that Ari is unquestionably town are both suspicious on their own to begin with, but together are even more troubling. Very likely scum.

Ari i was starting to like but his hard buddying with the extremely sketchy Vedith and not showing any suspicion towards Vediths "Ari is conftown"claim looks extremely opportunistic. The VT claim is suspect too because it came much later than his first L-1. VT is a fairly unlikely claim for scum to make this early, but the weakness of town PRs in this setup makes claiming anything fairly worthless and ultimately the while claim thing is a wash for me. Scum lean.

I don't really see a single thing that i like from Dave. I don't see anything overly scummy, but i also don't see any intention to solve the game. And just tons of lurking, only showing activity once he was pressured. Scum lean. I am ok with this lunch but this will likely be my last chance to post before deadline so I'd rather not hammer without giving him a chance to claim/post reads in case of mislynch. If anybody voting him is on now and would like to unvote so i can L-1 him, that works

[Kasumeat]

Also i did pm a vla request so maybe that got missed

[Kasumeat]

Been busy lately, will post ASAP

[Kasumeat]

Raya was my strongest TR so I definitely need to re-evaluate this game. Her flip also makes me feel a little worse about Wino. Her post which acknowledges the case on him but ultimately ends with her "TRing" him is very typical of how I respond to my scumbros being cased when I'm scum.

[Kasumeat]

In my one game of experience with NM, where he replaced into a town slot, he posted slightly more ("I'm town!") but still absolutely no content, even when pressured. I'm not really sure why he plays mafia.

[Kasumeat]

You only speak when you're under pressure.

You haven't finished your iso analysis. Me want more!!!

Agreed

[Kasumeat]

To be clear I'm not opposed to a NM lunch. He's a player I don't feel comfortable bringing to the late game because I don't anticipate myself or anyone else being able to get a read in him. The only question is to when. I'm inclined to wait another day or so because what is essentially a policy lunch doesn't give us much info, regardless of how he flips.

Now here's the thing.

This is multi ball.

If NM is scummy, NM is not only scummy for town, NM is also scummy for mafia. Why town has to policy lynch when mafia can policy kill?

Why the hell would scum kill lynch bait? Even if they suspected the lunch bait was scum, that just seems like a waste of a kill.

Realeo, sometimes i really like your posting, and sometimes it's such absurd nonsense like this which I can't possibly comprehend coming from town.

[Kasumeat]

Alright I think scum is between
Crush, Vedith, OldWino
Lynch pool should be between them
I now believe JJD is town as well

No, you don't get say in it.

Strong SR, also a huge asshole.
VOTE: vedith

Would also lunch Ari, SS, NM and Whymafia today. Maybe Crush too, I need to look him over again. NM is actually my last choice on this list because the problem with lynching him today is that if he flips town, it gives us so little info, which basically everyone reading him as more or less null.

The Wino wagon, I don't like at all and will not vote there.

[Kasumeat]

Alright I think scum is between
Crush, Vedith, OldWino
Lynch pool should be between them
I now believe JJD is town as well

No, you don't get say in it.

And to be clear, shit like this is not only really rude and makes the game unfun for people, it's anti town because it kills posting

[Kasumeat]

VOTE: SS

LITERALLY NOT MOVING THIS EVER UNTIL ONE OF US DIES

What happened to this? Why did you back off on me?

I've been drinking, pardon any mistakes

I calmed down, and also accepted that your lunch isn't happening today.

Maybe I'm even just OMGUSing you? Other than your exchange with me, nothing at all about you bothers me. On the other hand, I just really don't like letting players go when I catch them in what I believe to be scum slips. If you look at my newbie game here, I caught one of the scum slipping early, but got coaxed out of following through by the other scum and it cost us the game. I also caught a scum slip d1 in the Friends and Enemies game I've played here. You said yourself that my scum hunting is bad. Maybe it is. But catching players slipping has a pretty good record for me.

But yeah, it looks like nobody believes me, and there are other scum to catch in this game, so I need to move on for more. I acknowledge that I'm going back on my word, but i was in a very irrational State when I said that.

[Kasumeat]

Strong SR, also a huge asshole.
VOTE: vedith

Would also lunch Ari, SS, NM and Whymafia today. Maybe Crush too, I need to look him over again. NM is actually my last choice on this list because the problem with lynching him today is that if he flips town, it gives us so little info, which basically everyone reading him as more or less null.

The Wino wagon, I don't like at all and will not vote there.

so you sr all my 3 srs but also sr my other 2 trs apart from you?
and i dont understand the last line. do you tr wino or hate the composition of his wagon (which is solo kantrip)? im assuming the former bc you did not include kantrup in your lynch pool but i want to be sure i got it right

I mean both that Wino is one of my strongest TRs, and many of the players who have declared they SR Wino are also my SRs, even if there not actually on his wagon yet.

[Kasumeat]

I've already explained why I TR Wino. I'm really, really confident in that read at this point.

[Kasumeat]

So why isn't he in your lynchpool

Because he's the type of person who I doubt a wagon would solve anything
He's not miraculously gonna start playing seriously either
Best hope is for our invests to eventually check him and find a guilty, or mis-lynch him when there isn't much to gain from other slots
I feel like the other people in my lynch pool offer more in terms if scumminess and a flip

I'm not sure if I'm articulating this well, but please ask me more if you're confused

Why is he a mislynch?

[Kasumeat]

I want to apologise to everyone for disappearing. I was in the bush for 5 days, which I did PM to the backup mod at the time, but it looks like he forgot to pass this on. Then when I returned to my hotel, for some reason they had this website blocked and I didn't have an alternative internet source. By the time I was able to access MS again, I was already replaced.