Open 692 - Two-fold Matrix6 (Game Over)

[Aristophanes]

Oops, I got consumed by a couple of things.
UNVOTE:

Realeo, what did you "just realize"?

He said it would be antitown to ay it...

This is either a dumb question or busywork.

[Raya36]

So it looks like our three most likely candidates are Ari, Oldwino, and Crush (PM).

Of the three I probably dislike PM the most but where Crush has replaced in I don't want to vote for the slot yet.

So I guess it's between Ari and Oldwino unless anyone brings up a wagon that I believe in. (Ftr I'm not convinced that Realeo is scum)

I looked through Ari's iso and he hasn't been the most helpful player but I wouldn't put him on the same level as anti-town just simply unhelpful. Most of his posts up until 168 are just rvs/joking/fluff so no content there. I don't like how in a couple of posts he had been talking about his game as scum saying that he sucks and hardly posts which almost seems like he's setting up a scum meta for himself. Then what pings me even more is thay he has a high post count but it's mostly contentless, almost like he wanted to make sure he got a lot of posts in to disprove that set up meta. I also think I saw a few questions asked but no follow ups to them which kind of adds to my point. After this he posts a few reads however they seem kind of empty. There isn't much content to them at all and they seem more like 'crap, I haven't posted any content. Better post something'. I'm alright with the lynch being here and I'm willing to hammer although we still have time so I'd like to wait and see if anything convinces me otherwise.

I also looked through Oldwino's iso. All his posts up to 109 are rvs/fluff. What pings me is in 109 he complains that the game is going to slow but hadn't done anything himself up until that point. He does give a read list that post which is a bit odd so early on but at least he was doing something about the game going slow even if I don't agree with his reasoning. That said, pushing the game forward may not be town indicative this game. If I'm not mistaken scum need to do at least some extent of hunting as well. So after their readlist they mostly just answer questions or explain it. After this most of his posts are actually filled with a fair amount of content. I actually don't mind Oldwino as besides those first few things I pointed out nothing has seemed scummy to me.

Actually, it's the opposite. His posting seems mostly conclusions fueled by shallow explanations. Which makes sense for scum as faking conclusions is no trouble at all.

In reading his ISO I don't see anything that looks like more than just evidence followed by conclusion. It's kinda tough to explain but I think that it's very easy to play the way he is as scum (and it's how I often play as scum because I'm really bad at faking being genuine).

This is a fair point. Do you scum read him for this or are you just saying that this doesn't point to him being town? Do you think this is just his writing style and how he organizes his thoughts or do you think it's a scummy way of posting?

The former and the latter.
(I scumread him for it and I think it's a scummy way of posting.)

Okay, I see where you're coming from with this but I feel that this could just as easily be town as well.
I'll link a couple posts that I found to be towny. Can you link some of the ones where you felt he was faking conclusions or that you found scummy?
151
159
These two posts made early on were the most towniest to me. He posted a few later on that I like the analyzing in although they didn't really include much that would say whether they were town or scum.

151
156
159
204
316

It's very hard to explain what I don't like about those posts, but I feel like the motivation behind them is "give reads". It's not "solve the game" or "sort players". Those are things that only town has to do (actually this isn't true in this game because it's multiball, but scum still have less of these things to do and it's still possible to play multiball with the same scum mindset). I don't think Kasumeat was thinking that critically about the actions mentioned (or mentioned many actions that can really be read into in a complex way). They seem very formulaic, like a T-chart: statements, and reasons.

Maybe it's not scum indicative for Kasumeat, but the above describes extremely well the difference between my towngame and my scumgame, and I'm sure Ari (who knows them both very well) can attest to that at least. (And therefore he should also townread me before too long.)

As I said, I get where you're coming from but I don't really agree. I can see the sort of formulaic (is this even a word?) writing style although I don't necessarily see that as scummy but more of a writing style. I have seen town play that way many times before and I even play that way as town on occasion. Also, even if I may not always agree with them I do find their reads to be genuine. It doesn't come across as fake for me as it does for you.

[Kasumeat]

VOTE: No Lynch

This is very clearly advocating not to lynch.

Would a paranoid newb scum posts that page 4 read list? I think a paronoid newb scum would be too scared to do anything?

You're right, I don't think he would, that's another reason I don't think he's scum, despite a few small scummy things about him. What are you getting at here?

It depends.

A no lynch can be a seriously good idea when we're approaching end game.

In early games, no lynching is basically seen as a bad idea if the multiball has no investigative or protective power role (ie. Jungle Ogligarch, Making Friends and Enemies and Enemies, Fire and Ice)

This game has protective and investigative roles.

These two lines that I've bolded, taken together, very clearly say that no lynching is not a bad idea. It is a bad idea. You came out in support of no lynching, then provided (misleading) arguments in favour of it, and now you're saying you don't want to no lynch and never argued in favour of it when you definitely did. I feel really, really good about this vote.

[Something_Smart]

Given the consistency of Kasumeat @ fosing both me and S_S, I'm townleaning Kasumeat.

What makes you think it's not just scum pushing an agenda? (Not to mention that those reads might actually be real)

Sorry for the lack of posting
@SS
You think that Lane has more content in his ISO? Yeah ..... no

Before 120 you had 8 posts, 3 of which (at least) were RVS and all of which were 1-3 lines if that. None of them showed much of an interest in interacting, and your posts are mostly stating reads. I don't consider stating reads much content because naming all your reads can be done in one short post.
Before this posts you had 20 posts, 1-4 lines in length, following mostly the same patter.

Before 211, lane had 10 posts, also mostly short. 2 RVS, but the rest all have direct interactions-- either questions or responses that are meant to be responded to (as opposed to static things that are simply said).
Now he has 25, also following the same pattern. But he feels like he's actually trying to generate responses from others and figure things out rather than just saying "I scumread X because of [simplistic one-line argument]."
You have similar numbers of posts of similar length. But in reading your ISOs I get a lot more out of his. Stating reads is secondary as long as you're using your vote well; but interacting with people and actually forming those reads is critical. That's what I read as content, and that's why I feel you don't have much (and what you do have is the type of posting that scum have little difficulty faking).

This is a scum-claim right here. The protective and investigative roles we have in this game are EXTREMELY weak and suggesting that we intentionally no-lynch so that we can rely on them instead is extremely fucking scummy. If we have a Cop, he cannot clear town, he can only catch scum, and even that, he can only catch 50% of scum! Without exaggeration that's not even 1/4 as useful as a normal Cop. Very similar story for Tracker, and of course their Werewolf equivalents. And the protective roles are half as useful as well. This is one of the most anti-town suggestions I've ever seen in my life.

You're aware that scum can also kill each other, right?
Whenever I've been scum in multiball (or SK) I've always attempted to do this, and the one time I was town in multiball I relied on it (going so far as to tell the scum who to kill, which they did and the person flipped other scum although that game was 3:2:2 so relying on crosskills was necessary).

Of the three that Raya mentioned I think I'd prefer oldwino. Although Ari's recent content has not been that impressive he has a few posts that I think are towny, particularly the ones about him forgetting it's multiball (which I think is real coming from him). Although on rereading his ISO I'm not sure exactly where my townread on PM came from (I think it was his reaction to Realeo's L-3 post? But that doesn't look towny anymore). But I'd have to see what the replacement does there.

As I said, I get where you're coming from but I don't really agree. I can see the sort of formulaic (is this even a word?) writing style although I don't necessarily see that as scummy but more of a writing style. I have seen town play that way many times before and I even play that way as town on occasion. Also, even if I may not always agree with them I do find their reads to be genuine. It doesn't come across as fake for me as it does for you.

I just had a game end where the person posting like that (Alchemist) was scum-- he had a solid ISO and mostly reasonable points but I couldn't shake the feeling that his interactions were just made to appear like scumhunting and that he wasn't really interacting genuinely, which was one of the reasons I lynched him. I won't disagree that town can play like that, but it's not a strong way to play as town (whereas it's a moderately good way to play as scum).

[Raya36]

As I said, I get where you're coming from but I don't really agree. I can see the sort of formulaic (is this even a word?) writing style although I don't necessarily see that as scummy but more of a writing style. I have seen town play that way many times before and I even play that way as town on occasion. Also, even if I may not always agree with them I do find their reads to be genuine. It doesn't come across as fake for me as it does for you.

I just had a game end where the person posting like that (Alchemist) was scum-- he had a solid ISO and mostly reasonable points but I couldn't shake the feeling that his interactions were just made to appear like scumhunting and that he wasn't really interacting genuinely, which was one of the reasons I lynched him. I won't disagree that town can play like that, but it's not a strong way to play as town (whereas it's a moderately good way to play as scum).

(Actually, I was replaced by Taco in that game xD) Fair point though. It's worth considering and maybe looking into later but while it can be an easy posting style for scum I don't consider it to be that AI since as I mentioned I have seen many town play that way as well. Basically I guess what I'm saying is while it could be evidence towards someone being scum I don't consider it to be strong evidence and I wouldn't consider a lynch without stronger evidence to support it especially when I generally townread the slot.

[Something_Smart]

Wait how did I forget that LOL

I guess I got so involved in the LYLO I forgot the rest of the game existed

[Kasumeat]

I just had a game end where the person posting like that (Alchemist) was scum-- he had a solid ISO and mostly reasonable points but I couldn't shake the feeling that his interactions were just made to appear like scumhunting and that he wasn't really interacting genuinely, which was one of the reasons I lynched him. I won't disagree that town can play like that, but it's not a strong way to play as town (whereas it's a moderately good way to play as scum).

☑ Meta based argument
☑ Meta based argument on player X using player Y's meta
☑ "Solid ISO, mostly reasonable points, definitely scum"
☑ OMGUS

Very safe to say that SS has solved this one, let's go home boys

[Something_Smart]

It's not meta if you're applying it from one player to another.

Also how is it OMGUS? If I remember correctly I scumread you first and then you scumread me back.

[Something_Smart]

Also this isn't just one person I'm generalizing from.
Alchemist21, Something_Smart, Infinity 324, Umlaut, BlueBloodedToffee, DoctorPepper, Expedience, MagnaofIllusion, ProHawk, SirCakez, GuiltyLion, Egg are just some players I can think of that have used playstyles like this as scum in games I've been in.

[Kasumeat]

Also how is it OMGUS? If I remember correctly I scumread you first and then you scumread me back.

Haha this is true, I'm just drinking and feeling sassy

[Kasumeat]

Regardless, this is the playstyle I use in every game (because I'm always town)

[Something_Smart]

I just looked up the most recent completed game in your topics (Mini 1905) and reading your ISO it doesn't look like you used it there.

Why aren't you interacting with players trying to sort them?

[Something_Smart]

Though it does look like you used it in Open 689. (He was town in both games btw)

[Kasumeat]

Why aren't you interacting with players trying to sort them?

lol

[Something_Smart]

That's what the playstyle that I'm describing is.

[Something_Smart]

Also you're somewhere in the middle in Open 638. (also town)

[Something_Smart]

You didn't really use it in Newbie 1695 that much. (town)
And wow you die night 2 a lot

[Kasumeat]

I just looked up the most recent completed game in your topics (Mini 1905) and reading your ISO it doesn't look like you used it there.

Why aren't you interacting with players trying to sort them?

Counterpoint: This is a blatant lie and he's hoping you won't actually look at that game. But here it is in case you actually want to bother, look for yourself: viewtopic.php?f=53&t=71640

[Something_Smart]

Why do you keep jumping to conclusions?

That would be an idiotic thing to do as scum. A much more reasonable explanation (which isn't even related to my alignment!) is that I skimmed your ISO and got what you consider to be a wrong impression of your play.

So by all means explain how your play is similar, and I'll take back that statement.

[Kasumeat]

My play is similar in that it's aggressive, guileless, and I push people who do scummy things. It's mostly methodical but with occasional outbursts of emotion, mostly when I get pushed by terrible cases or think I've caught scum.

[Kasumeat]

And honestly that's enough of this 1v1, it's distracting from the big picture which is making sure we don't take your incredibly scummy advice by no lynching

[Kasumeat]

Here is a question to everyone: Realeo is 100% lying about not advocating for a no-lynch. Does this bother you? Why or why not?

[Aristophanes]

Here is a question to everyone: Realeo is 100% lying about not advocating for a no-lynch. Does this bother you? Why or why not?

Kinda.

He didn't exactly "advocate for it" but he made a very strong non-case which I almost sheeped.

The reversal is weird.

[Kasumeat]

Here is a question to everyone: Realeo is 100% lying about not advocating for a no-lynch. Does this bother you? Why or why not?

Kinda.

He didn't exactly "advocate for it" but he made a very strong non-case which I almost sheeped.

The reversal is weird.

A vote for No Lynch is how one says "we should no lynch today," no? That's advocating for it.

[Kasumeat]

Especially when backed up by his argument about how investigative & protective roles make it not a bad idea to no lynch