Open 698: Stack the Deck (GAME OVER)

[Chip Butty]

VOTE: Duckworth

For being slow to confirm, which is a surefire scumtell.

[Chip Butty]

OK, I need a new vote.
Luca likes Suikoden, so I can't vote there anymore...

VOTE: Duckworth

Serious vote.

You've got a serious bare vote on a guy who hasn't confirmed yet?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Unabombah

[Chip Butty]

Okay, didn't see the Duckworth vote. Might as well leave my vote where it is, though. Might change back later, just because i like saying ' Duckworth'. That's what i would call my butler, if i had a butler.

[Chip Butty]

'That will be all for tonight, thank you Duckworth. You may retire for the night...'

[Chip Butty]

OK, I need a new vote.
Luca likes Suikoden, so I can't vote there anymore...

VOTE: Duckworth

Serious vote.

You've got a serious bare vote on a guy who hasn't confirmed yet?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Unabombah

Mod, I have a vote on Unabombah...

The vote has been fixed. Thank you for informing me.

[Chip Butty]

I guess we're out of RVS, huh?

[Chip Butty]

^^^Oh...

[Chip Butty]

^^^Oh...

Thanks Mod. Cancel that 'Oh'...

[Chip Butty]

I'm seeing Grapes and Alchemist as long-winded comedy town for not noticing that Riddleston isn't even a player even while they were coming across as taking themselves very seriously. I lold. Mafia tends to be a bit more aware of their environment than that.

[Chip Butty]

Also, Mod: could you please update the player list to show Duckworth is confirmed?

[Chip Butty]

Iceguy and Realio probtown.

[Chip Butty]

VOTE: CommKnight
This guy was one of the people who sank me hard last time we played.

Are you going to crumb for your traitor?

No, for three reasons:
1: I'm Town.
2: The Traitor already knows the identities of the Mafia members.
3: If I were Mafia, my first move would be to recruit the Traitor.

VOTE: Assemble

"The Traitor Mafia"
"If I Mafia Traitor" Look at capital lettered words

He is scum, he crumbed. Get him guys... oh wait, let's wait for him to claim PGO...

Were you being serious here? I took this as RVS. I mean, crumbing mafia by using capitals is paleo. I'm pretty sure nobody does that now.

[Chip Butty]

Very early days but assemble isn't pinging me.

[Chip Butty]

Grapes you seem easily pleased, if you don't mind me saying.

Anything you're not liking to far?

And the game is Suikoden II - nostalgia from my childhood.

Not bad...

[Chip Butty]

VOTE: Grapes

Hello.

OK, I need a new vote.
Luca likes Suikoden, so I can't vote there anymore...

VOTE: Duckworth

Serious vote.

I guess this is a joke...? Right?

[Chip Butty]

Everybody else can wait til they've posted more.

[Chip Butty]

Were you being serious here? I took this as RVS. I mean, crumbing mafia by using capitals is paleo. I'm pretty sure nobody does that now.

Assembrelowts did it in Open 696 and CommKnight pwned him real hard.

Previously on Open 696...

For those not seeing it...

S

ince you're taking this route, let me remind you of something.

C

hoosing to lynch someone for simply making what you perceive to be an anti-town move is just as anti-town as the L-1 stunt.

U

nless you don't believe your own logic.

M

aybe you're just scum trying to get a lynch.

B

ut if he's town, lynching him creates the same potential for 4v6 D2 MYLO as his stunt, and I've seen nothing actually scummy from him.
VOTE: CommKnight
While you stew on this, I'm left to wonder what Crush/his replacement are going to do.

You failed utterly dude.

LOL I stand corrected. I guess he's learned his lesson though.

[Chip Butty]

If I ever do roll scum in a game with you I'll have to make sure to pay you back for Micro 725.

I don't like this.

VOTE: Alchemist21

Iceguy is right not to like that LAMIST quote. Seems very wary of being pocketed / buddied. NAI.

[Chip Butty]

Iceguy probtown.

You postulated that grapes is town yet Iceguy's substantive material is only about not liking grapes.

Clearly, your townprob at Iceguy is more than "Town thinks alike". Elaborate please.

It's mostly gut at the moment.

[Chip Butty]

Iceguy probtown.

You postulated that grapes is town yet Iceguy's substantive material is only about not liking grapes.

Clearly, your townprob at Iceguy is more than "Town thinks alike". Elaborate please.

It's mostly gut at the moment.

[Chip Butty]

Iceguy probtown.

You postulated that grapes is town yet Iceguy's substantive material is only about not liking grapes.

Clearly, your townprob at Iceguy is more than "Town thinks alike". Elaborate please.

It's mostly gut at the moment.

[Chip Butty]

Iceguy probtown.

You postulated that grapes is town yet Iceguy's substantive material is only about not liking grapes.

Clearly, your townprob at Iceguy is more than "Town thinks alike". Elaborate please.

It's mostly gut at the moment.

[Chip Butty]

Glitch in the Matrix...

[Chip Butty]

Iceguy probtown.

You postulated that grapes is town yet Iceguy's substantive material is only about not liking grapes.

Clearly, your townprob at Iceguy is more than "Town thinks alike". Elaborate please.

Specifically, IceGuy didn't interpret the Riddleton thing the same way as me, so i can see how we could both be town yet come to differing conclusions re Grapes.

[Chip Butty]

I also really don't like the way how you vote everybody who attacks you.

I can't tell if this is just a human-error or an scum misrepping given the fact the next thing is a vote.

This.

[Chip Butty]

That's a point against Iceguy, but i initially read it as a throwaway, not meant to be taken literally.

[Chip Butty]

I also really don't like the way how you vote everybody who attacks you.

I can't tell if this is just a human-error or an scum misrepping given the fact the next thing is a vote.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here; I don't consider voting by itself scummy.

I think he meant Grapes had only voted twice and you kind of implied it was more than that, hence 'misrepping'...

[Chip Butty]

@Luca: Same like Gamenburger, i play from my phone and it's easier to make lots of little post than construct one big one with multiquotes and comments between.

[Chip Butty]

Gamenburger is looking townie, but i suppose it is possible he is hardworking scum. Grapes is making it easy for people to criticise him.

[Chip Butty]

OK, I need a new vote.
Luca likes Suikoden, so I can't vote there anymore...

VOTE: Duckworth

Serious vote.

You've got a serious bare vote on a guy who hasn't confirmed yet?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Unabombah

This deserves more attention. That naked vote is ew.

That "naked vote" - mine or his?

Grapes gets a small dose of towncred for provoking people into posting.

I'll post tonight, I just need to regain some strenght after last night..

My vote on you isn't naked. It is clear that i voted you because you voted Duckworth without giving a reason, and went to the trouble to confirm it as a serious vote.

[Chip Butty]

My vote on you isn't naked. It is clear that i voted you because you voted Duckworth without giving a reason, and went to the trouble to confirm it as a serious vote.

Luca is locktown for me now, he can roll to scum!victory if he wants to, just because he likes Suikoden.

Noted for future games...

[Chip Butty]

@Grapes: sorry if I've missed this in your gargantuan posts, but can you please link us to a game where you were town and played in a similar style?

@Luca: Speaking of easy, how come you have accepted Grapes's account of his style without asking him what I have just asked him?

[Chip Butty]

I forgot to do this:

UNVOTE: UnabombaH

[Chip Butty]

@Luca: It's not asking for sel-meta per se. It just asking for verification that he jas played like this as town before.

[Chip Butty]

VOTE: Realio

Overtheorising.

[Chip Butty]

Don't worry. I don't expect everybody to be clever.

Every time I've seen someone wallpost on 'philosophy of mafia', they've been scum.

[Chip Butty]

PEDIT: Iceguy-Luca

I have a case on Luca?

[Chip Butty]

You ain't reading.

Presumably i don't need to read to know if i have a case on someone or not?

[Chip Butty]

Try again. That text was not talking about you having a read on Luca.

In #175 you have a para saying my case on Iceguy is reachy, and in #176 you pedit Iceguy to Luca?

I'm kinda over this for now. You're giving me a headache.

[Chip Butty]

No. I am saying Luca's case on Iceguy is reachy but I gave him a pass for reasons in that post.

Okay, so your pedit was to change 'Iceguy - Chip Butty' to 'Iceguy - Luca', not to 'Luca - Chip Butty'? I found that far from clear.

[Chip Butty]

That's 30 minutes of my life I'll never get back. Thanks.

[Chip Butty]

@CK:

1. Realio philosophy. It just looks like a variation of iioa. But fine, if someone can hook me up to a game where realio post philosophy walltexts, I'll retract my vote. But if you can't, I'll think about whether you might be his scumbuddy. Btw i wasn't impressed by realio instantly resorting to snarky humour. I think that's more scummy than townie too.

2. 30 mins. Yeah i lost 30 mins because realio's pedit was clear as mud.

3. Cruising. Yes I've been cruising, because this game has been developing very slowly and boringly and i have two others i am way more engaged with. Mini normals 646 and 648. I haven't seen anything i consider important yet, but if you or anyone has specific questions, I'll give it a shot. I know Luca asked something but engaging with realio expended all my energy, so I'll deal with it later.

[Chip Butty]

Pedit: first point should read posts philosophy walltexts as town...

[Chip Butty]

No. I am saying Luca's case on Iceguy is reachy but I gave him a pass for reasons in that post.

Okay, so your pedit was to change 'Iceguy - Chip Butty' to 'Iceguy - Luca', not to 'Luca - Chip Butty'? I found that far from clear.

@CK: if I'm not reading how did i get confused by this. I maintain it wasn't clear what his pedit intended.

[Chip Butty]

I mean you complained about not getting back 30 mins? I just dumped about 50 mins into that one post. I've been writing it since my vote placement. So don't complain to me about time.

Yes. I value my time. I don't like having it wasted. If you find that AI, fine.

[Chip Butty]

That's the reachiest reach of the game so far, and that's saying something. But, sure, there's something about Realio's long-winded posting style that makes my eyes glaze over.

Now: do you have any specific game issues you'd like me to address, or not?

[Chip Butty]

And how about that link? Can you back up your claim about Realio's posting style, or not?

[Chip Butty]

@CK:

1. Realio philosophy. It just looks like a variation of iioa. But fine, if someone can hook me up to a game where realio post philosophy walltexts, I'll retract my vote. But if you can't, I'll think about whether you might be his scumbuddy. Btw i wasn't impressed by realio instantly resorting to snarky humour. I think that's more scummy than townie too.

2. 30 mins. Yeah i lost 30 mins because realio's pedit was clear as mud.

3. Cruising. Yes I've been cruising, because this game has been developing very slowly and boringly and i have two others i am way more engaged with. Mini normals 646 and 648. I haven't seen anything i consider important yet, but if you or anyone has specific questions, I'll give it a shot. I know Luca asked something but engaging with realio expended all my energy, so I'll deal with it later.

And how about that link? Can you back up your claim about Realio's posting style, or not?

I never said I had a link. Looks like another post your eyes "glazed over" conveniently.

Oh ho ho ho! Who's not reading? Parte the firste...

If you can't come up with a link to back up what you said, it's unhelpful at best and scummy at worst.

[Chip Butty]

So, long story short, you can't back up what you said about Realio's posting style, and it appears you don't want to ask me any substantive questions about the game.

Great. How many minutes of my life did i lose this time?

[Chip Butty]

I can see it's going to be one of THOSE games.

[Chip Butty]

Yes of course, although it would be better if CK did it, to prove he wasn't just blowing hot air.

[Chip Butty]

@ChipButty

Finally, So I checked your mafia-wide activity and looked for keyword such as "theory", "iioa", "philosophy" and I can't find any relevant posts. Since you claim to see mafia posting mafia theory doing it all the time, would you back those up? Clearly, this is the first time you vote someone for "overtheorising"

Because i have played mafia elsewhere? I've even done it myself as mafia, though not here. But CK is claiming he has seen you do this.

[Chip Butty]

I'm trying to understand that when someone confronts you, how do you tell the difference that the confronting player is scum or town.

Like everyone else i form reads over the course of the game, and these may change several times, depending on what is posted, vca, guesses at the setup etc. But yeah, dumb or scum is the essential question in Mafia.

[Chip Butty]

Don't worry. I don't expect everybody to be clever.

Every time I've seen someone wallpost on 'philosophy of mafia', they've been scum.

Every time I hear stupid arguments to say someone is scum, the one making the argument has been scum.

See how easy that is? I know crazy that Realeo actually takes the time to explain out his train of thought and his own philosophy. He actually just got a bit higher in my TR's because of it.

Then the next little bit, it's obvious you're not even trying to read. "30 mins of my life I won't get back" Really? Because if you're playing Mafia, you're going to have many hours of your life you won't get back. Welcome to the forum game. It's not going to be a coaster.

But here's something else, my read on you has been in the red for a while now. But this last bit and even Realeo, one of my TL's that have hopped into a TR, has noticed. You've been skipping over stuff. Important stuff. That is something that scum do every single game. Or at least it comes off that way because they are intentionally trying to misrepresent something.

VOTE: Chip - My first serious vote of the game.

Also I'm awake. I'm tired as all shit. But I'm awake, so going to compile my reads thus far. I'm glad I could let a bit of this play out because I don't think my reads would be as good as they are currently if I were to interject myself earlier or place a serious vote earlier than now.

This one. 2nd para. Inb4 'but he didn't say he had a link': the way it is phrased make it sound like this is something you do a bit. Or, at least, he has seen you do it before.

[Chip Butty]

It's just that you used "blowing hot air" so it's kinda negative connotation so my mind went "Woah. A scumread just for that?"

Can I get confirmation for 213, please?

No, vlowing hot air just means his words are empty. Not necessarily scummy, maybe it's just an impression he has of you that isn't firmly based in reality. Or maybe it is some kind of test. But scumminess is an option, yes.

[Chip Butty]

Here's where i am with this : your philosophy wallpost looks like a kind of iioa to me, and if i can't see where you've done similar as town, or something else poos up, it's gonna continue to look that way.

[Chip Butty]

Lol, 'pops up'

[Chip Butty]

So I think this one?

I know crazy that Realeo actually takes the time to explain out his train of thought and his own philosophy.

So you are saying that he can say that "Realeo actually takes the time" because he has seen me takes my time?

I don't think that read that way, but to satisfy you, I'm pretty sure I haven't play with CommKnight before unless he played with some kind of hydra or alt.

Yeah that's it. It is kind of ambiguous because he said 'takes' instead of 'took'. A subtlety of English grammar.

[Chip Butty]

I read it as 'This is something Realio does', so of course my response is 'Show me'.

[Chip Butty]

Okay, so on the one hand those posts in that last wall seem more analytical and less of a general manifesto. On the other hand, Mulch did ask what you were thinking (although I'm not sure he was expecting a wall of philosophy).

Well, okay i guess...

UNVOTE:

[Chip Butty]

I'll need to check that you were town in those games, but yeah i think this has probably run out of steam.

[Chip Butty]

Oh you skeptics.

This is the Mod PT for Micro 729

roles randomised using random.org

Sane Cop: Quilford

Bellaphant

Insane Cop: Tenshii
Mafia Goon: mykonian
Mafia Goon: Edosurist
Vanilla Townie: Gorkington
Vanilla Townie: Mars Argo

Realeo

Vanilla Townie: Papa Zito
Vanilla Townie: BTD6_Maker
Vanilla Townie: chamber

Role PM's Sent

Mafia PT

Dead Threads

Opening Post

Rules Post

Confirmation Post

Opening Votecount

I'm not seeing you in there?

[Chip Butty]

*Takes a deep breath*

You ain't reading.

HINT: It maybe behind a strike. Who knows?

Indulge me. I can't see behind the strikes.

[Chip Butty]

Oh wait, i see it. I'm playing on my phone.

[Chip Butty]

Well, okay then.

[Chip Butty]

That gives me an idea for a game: 'Where's Realeo?', based on 'Where's Waldo?'

[Chip Butty]

Realeo

YOU ACTUALLY SPELLED MY USERNAME CORRECTLY!

Speaking of spelling correctly, check out your signature. Hint: "mabye"...

[Chip Butty]

VOTE: Duckworth

For being slow to confirm, which is a surefire scumtell.

OK, I need a new vote.
Luca likes Suikoden, so I can't vote there anymore...

VOTE: Duckworth

Serious vote.

You've got a serious bare vote on a guy who hasn't confirmed yet?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Unabombah

VOTE: Realio

Overtheorising.

I tr Commtown, his reads list is solid and I agree with it for the most part.

I also tr Realeo based on his posts in Page 8/9 about mafia analysis and his general tone when stating his philosophy on the game.

Chip's vote in 171 is strange and has little basis to it, especially so as we are out of RVS now. Many of his votes are reactionary and trigger-happy at mild issues and therefore they give me a scumvibe.

I still dislike the amount of reads that grapes good so early in the game.

VOTE: ChipButty

Lol 'many of my votes are reactionary'? Really? Many of them? Like, all three, including my joke vote on you?

Duckworth is clearly just parrotting opinions already expressed by others on CK, Realeo, me, and grapes. In other words, he is trying to look like he is scumhunting without doing any real scumhunting. There was absolutely no original thought there whatsoever.

VOTE: Duckworth

[Chip Butty]

I’ll probably do more stuff tmrw. Tbh I forgot this game existed lol

Lol i know what you mean.

[Chip Butty]

Day 1 has officially begun! The that this day will end is September 31, 2017, at 10:00 A.M. Central Time.

@Mod

- just to point out, September 31 doesn't exist.

Don't argue with the Mod lol. If he says there is a September 31, there is a September 31.

[Chip Butty]

On a serious note, I am having a hard time. I find the degree of scumminess of ChipButty is bolder than IceGuy, but I find IceGuy less likely to be town.

Using mathematical notation, on a spectrum of 0 to 1 for 0 is town, if the probability function of rolling town of both player is Gaussian distribution, median ChipButty < median IceGuy but standard deviation ChipButty > standard deviation Ice Guy.

I have to admit that I am

reddit/4chan-

a virgin.

Either for the better or the worse.

[Chip Butty]

Do you know that mafiascum is the only forum where my joke delivery rate is literally 0%?

Don't worry, I got that you were joking.

I meant my post more along the lines of "you shouldn't be mocking ChipButty".
Ah, The Old Reddit Switch-a-roo..?

It's okay. I laughed heartily for several seconds.

[Chip Butty]

I don't know what a Vedith is, and I'm not feeling adventurous, so no.

I need to reread but I have liked Luca's push.

More in a bit...

[Chip Butty]

I don't know what a Vedith is, and I'm not feeling adventurous, so no.

Me and Vedith went into a huge fight at one moment.

Some days after the fight, when Vedith goes to a hiatus, I feel sad because I missed his IDGAF charisma. When he returned back and replaced to a game with me, I can't stand him, but I enjoy playing with him and we worked together in that game--but for God sake he rolled scum--I was trolled--but it was nice. I felt happy when I mod him.

But now he site flaked again.

And I missed him.

Now that we think it, we kinda the same.

We went into the big fight in THAT game.

We kinda hate each other--it should be obvious--but we kinda respected each other? Somehow we do not went into eternal descent.

It's complicated and I don't remember I have this feeling with my girlfriend.

So...Vedith stimulates you in ways that your girlfriend can't? Is that what you're saying?

[Chip Butty]

In case you are wondering, I am 10% serious and 90% trying to make you feel creepy.

It's...kind of working...

I think I'll do the reread later, like about in 8 to 10 hours Pesky RL...

[Chip Butty]

Chip - 174- can you link some games when that has happened

Not for philosophy specifically, it was elsewhere. Once it was scum.me. i took a lot of flak for it but ultimately survived.

What i am saying is it is a form of iioa, as i have said a couple of times, and that is so much of a thing that it has an entry in the wiki.

I don't consider it a bad rationale for poking at someone early on a slow d1. I don't see why people are getting excited about it, except that it IS a slow d1.

The vibe i get from Realio is he thinks he's the smartest guy in the room, but that isn't AI.

[Chip Butty]

The vibe i get from Realio is he thinks he's the smartest guy in the room, but that isn't AI.

Really? I must be such a charismatic player.

Um...sure thing?

[Chip Butty]

GRAMMAR DISASTER INCOMING!

I think any player who still make no output even after reading up to 305 is a sign of bad faith.

I mean, sure, he could be having IRL issue, but I would like to assume he's mature enough that he would declare busyness when he is, so when he doesn't signal, I feel wronged.

Who arw you talking about?

[Chip Butty]

GRAMMAR DISASTER INCOMING!

I think any player who still make no output even after reading up to 305 is a sign of bad faith.

I mean, sure, he could be having IRL issue, but I would like to assume he's mature enough that he would declare busyness when he is, so when he doesn't signal, I feel wronged.

So you just typed a paragraph to say you think he is lurking? You must really enjoy typing.

[Chip Butty]

I don't know if it is just posting style, but Realeo is being consistently verbose. Reninds me of the phrase 'if you can't blind them with science, baffle them with BS'. Guess there is a meta-dive in my future...

[Chip Butty]

That's not really a whole paragraph, Chip. And I get what Realeo is saying there.

Technically, it's two paragraphs. I'm not disagreeing about Assemblerotws.

[Chip Butty]

Wait, A21's question was about Assembler. Are you talking about him or CK, or both?

Also i don't see the distinction between what you're pointing out, and lurking...

[Chip Butty]

Not to literal you to death but at this point I don't have a read on anyone based on three words.

But I mean different strokes for different blokes; I don't enjoy sitting around until some arbitrary word count to happen on page 3 in order to stop censoring myself so that people don't immediately discredit me based on playstyle for giving thoughts as they come to me.

You made a list of people you consider town/null/scum. This list included people who've posted three words and people that aren't in the game. You posted things that look like they're useful to town, but aren't.

I also really don't like the way how you vote everybody who attacks you.

VOTE: grapes

On the other hand, I'm not completely convinced that grapes is scum; I have this nagging feeling scum is sitting amongst the lurkers and laughing at how we're attacking ourselves.

Alchemist is town. Realeo is probably town, at least I don't think he's bussing. Everybody else - that includes Chip Butty - needs to post non-RVS posts.

Back from work, catching up.

I'm comfortable with this, maybe put me one slot higher in your next list?

I do not like how you try to persuade people to rate you townier. If you want people to consider you town, do something useful to town, don't just say you want to be considered town.

Uh, no. I've seen you coasting on the back of Grapes the whole game so far and have done little else.

Are you really just going to dismiss my entire post like that?

Yes, because you're saying that I'm scum based on things like that I'm unsure with my reads (on page 3 of all places), or that my reads change.

Now you have unvoted Grapes, who is your biggest scum read?

The whole peanut gallery of lurkers. ironstove, Assemblerotws, Duckworth/Riddleton. I'm not going to rank them because they're equally useless. UnaBombaH at least posts but I don't like what I'm seeing. Since there is a wagon on him by a player I consider towny, I'm going to vote him VOTE: UnaBombaH, and hereby express my intention to vote any of the other three if a wagon will form.

Considering he has done nothing else in this game though, wouldn't you agree it seems like he's trying to 'look useful without being so' which is exactly what he actually sumread Grapes for in the first place?

I've provided actual content, which grapes at that point hadn't.

VOTE: Realio

Overtheorising.

This is a bad vote and the justification in #174 is even worse.

I'm waiting for his vote to see if he actually meant it. Given how he read my post, I can no longer predict the sentiment of his text.

I'm not voting Luca. I don't consider him particularly scummy.

3. Cruising. Yes I've been cruising, because this game has been developing very slowly and boringly and i have two others i am way more engaged with.

I have a question. Why do you consider this game boring?

I don't like the reasons for this vote or the position he is conveying either - he's focusing on the lurkers who are the easy targets for the lynch. He doesn't care which of them is lynched and has made it clear he will switch to any of them if a wagon forms. Basically this just looks opportunistic to me.

Do you always get your #1 scumread lynched? Don't you see the point in compromising?

And yet ChipButty isn't someone you're considering for the lynch (based on your quote above)? You have genuine reasons to vote ChipButty so why just pick on the lurkers instead?

A bad justification is not necessarily a scummy justification. Also, why are you so intent on defending the lurkers who have literally contributed nothing to the game?

You said earlier that I had decided to start a wagon on you and was trying to find reasons - that implies a scum read to me, or do you think Town would have similar motivation?

As above: Town does bad things.

Do you always get your #1 scumread lynched? Don't you see the point in compromising?

Isn't it too early to compromise? I personally would only compromise during deadline or people are starting to tunnel.

I haven't changed my vote from UnaBombaH and I currently do not intend doing so (especially with his first "content" post, which is basically OMGUS). I still hope the UnaBombaH wagon goes through.

However, if the UnaBombaH wagon falls apart and there's a wagon on any of the other three (and they do not start being towny posters), I will immediately switch. I would also switch back if there's a UnaBombaH wagon after all and he doesn't suddenly start to become town.

Read list:

Town: Chip Butty/Alchemist/Realeo
Leaning town: Luca/CK/grapes
Neutral: Mulch/GNB
Leaning scum: ironstove/Duckworth
Scum: Assemble/UnaBombaH

And anyone else surprise by IceGuy's ChipButty Townread?

I've only seen him say negative things about him so far, yet suddenly he's first name on his Townie list.

I'm surprised to be top tier, but null to tl wouldn't have surprised me. As far as i can see, his only mentions of me prior to the tr were

1. Pointing out i needed to make non-RVS posts, which at that time was true.
2. Asking why i found the game boring. (Answer: because i did. It has improved now)
3. Defending me by saying my justification for my Realeo vote could be badtown rather than scummy.

Could you point out where Iceguy made negative comments about me prior to his tr?

[Chip Butty]

Chip - 174- can you link some games when that has happened

Not for philosophy specifically, it was elsewhere. Once it was scum.me. i took a lot of flak for it but ultimately survived.

What i am saying is it is a form of iioa, as i have said a couple of times, and that is so much of a thing that it has an entry in the wiki.

I don't consider it a bad rationale for poking at someone early on a slow d1. I don't see why people are getting excited about it, except that it IS a slow d1.

The vibe i get from Realio is he thinks he's the smartest guy in the room, but that isn't AI.

You said every time you've seen this it's been scum tho right- even if it's another site, can you link when you've seen it

No sorry. It's a site i haven't played at in over a year. I really don't have the time to go digging rhere. Lynch me for it if you want.

[Chip Butty]

No sorry. It's a site i haven't played at in over a year. I really don't have the time to go digging rhere. Lynch me for it if you want.

Can I have the site name and the user name please. The no lifer can do the meta digging if you don't want.

You're joking, right?

Right?

[Chip Butty]

@ChipButty

- These are the only times IceGuy mentioned you before he posted his reads list.

Alchemist is town. Realeo is probably town, at least I don't think he's bussing. Everybody else - that includes Chip Butty - needs to post non-RVS posts.

VOTE: Realio

Overtheorising.

This is a bad vote and the justification in #174 is even worse.

3. Cruising. Yes I've been cruising, because this game has been developing very slowly and boringly and i have two others i am way more engaged with.

I have a question. Why do you consider this game boring?

As you can see, there is nothing there to indicate a Town read, and the middle quote is clearly negative.

As he explained later, he was saying badtown, not scummy.

[Chip Butty]

But yeah, like i said, I'm surprised to be top tier. Food for thought there, for sure.

[Chip Butty]

Yeah i still haven't done my reread of this game. I got caught up in another game. I hope to do it a bit later but no promises.

Iceguy ISO, too.

[Chip Butty]

@Luca: I'm not too trusting of that explanation either, but your reason for doubting it seens thin / reachy.

[Chip Butty]

@Luca: I'm not too trusting of that explanation either, but your reason for doubting it seens thin / reachy.

How so?

For example, he might have thought that by calling my vote bad rather than scummy, he thought he would be understood as saying badtown. If he has a history of using 'bad' and 'scummy' interchangeably, then this explanation doesn't work though.

[Chip Butty]

I'm not saying it's not worth noting. My impression of Iceguy is that he makes nitpicking criticisms of people, perhap wanting to be seen doing something and casting shade. I know that is similar to what has been said by others. I'll have a clearer picture when i do the ISO.

I also feel there might be a slight push to set me up for today's lynch. Something I'll look for in my reread.

Now i must really break away for a while...

[Chip Butty]

VOTE: Grapes

Hello.

Apologies for the confusion everyone and apologies for the alt slip. I am riddleton.

I will post more later on.

I tr Commtown, his reads list is solid and I agree with it for the most part.

I also tr Realeo based on his posts in Page 8/9 about mafia analysis and his general tone when stating his philosophy on the game.

Chip's vote in 171 is strange and has little basis to it, especially so as we are out of RVS now. Many of his votes are reactionary and trigger-happy at mild issues and therefore they give me a scumvibe.

I still dislike the amount of reads that grapes good so early in the game.

VOTE: ChipButty

EBWOP: "I still dislike the amount of reads that grapes got so early in the game"

How about make up your own reads?

Iceguy why do you tr Chip?

Many of his votes are reactionary and trigger-happy at mild issues and therefore they give me a scumvibe.

Why?

A lot of his vote timings and motives are strange to me. He uses votes too aggressively in a way that isn't town for me.

• 5 is RVS so that is fine.
  
  
• 42 doesn't have a town motive behind it. He chooses to vote instead of the (more logical) approach to ask why Una was voting me.
  
  
• 174 is the worst vote and justification from him so far. Again the flaw is like above as there's no intent to question, but rather just vote. Additionally, he is being too quick to react and vote Realio based on 1 philosophy post he made prior.
  
  
• 256 is his vote on me. Make of that what you will; I am biased. However, I believe his justification and motive for this vote is better than his previous vote on 174 which made no sense to me.

1. I have voted 4 times in this game, inc 1 rvs vote. Yet Ducky uses the phrase 'Many of his votes...' in #249. Then in this post he uses the phrase 'A lot of his vote timings...' And then discussing #174 he calls it my 'worst vote and justification SO FAR'. It's my second serious vote! This all represents a sustained effort to deceitfully present a very minor thing as a major thing.

2. He criticises my voting Una and Realeo because i didn't question them first Look through Duck's ISO up there: Did he question me before voting me? No, he didn't.

3. His criticism of my #171 is flogging a dead horse. It has been addressed.

4. He is saying he is voting me for my votes on Una and Realeo, Yet he also describes my votes as 'reactionary and trigger-happy at mild issues'. Pot, kettle, black much?

All in all it looks like a very contrived attack, constructed to look considered and balanced but in reality anything but.

We should lynch this guy.

[Chip Butty]

Hello, this is dog.

Good-bye.

Wake me up when it's day 2.

Don't make me roll up a magazine...

[Chip Butty]

Okay, will try to devote a little more time to this game now. I think what I'm going to do here is just read over and over and try to be receptive to gut feel, rather than picking at detail, as many people are doing that already.

So...

UnabombaH is a popular topic of discussion. This is a guy who likes to joke around a bit, so don't take everything he says too seriously. But it is true what is being said: there's a lot of fluff and not much else early on. I dont think it is bad that he defends himself against the fluff accusation. That's pretty much how things go, accusation followed by defence. I can understand where he is coming from because i consciously post fluff too. After all, this is supposed to be fun.

If pressed right now i would say lean scum, but bearing in mind he might be someone who looks scummy even when they're not. Wouldn't hold it against people who wagoned him. My own top scumpick is still Duckworth though.

[Chip Butty]

Iceguy: the thing between him and Una comes off slightly weird to me. Almost a scum theatre vibe. I'll come back to him and comment on his reads...

[Chip Butty]

The lurker pool:

Ironstove
Duckworth
Assembler
BNG

Lynching lurkers d1 has the disadvantage of not providing much association data. I get scumvibes from Duck but I'll prob end up joining another wagon eventually. Generally though I'd rather leave these guys at least until tomorrow, in the hope they'll start posting more.

[Chip Butty]

I'll post more detail on ironstove BNG and Assembler at a later point, when there is more to go on...

[Chip Butty]

Alch: someone i think said they thought Alch had carefully constructed his openung to gain town cred. I had the same feeling. I think he might be quite adept at appearing town, but whether or not he is pretending in this game i don't know yet.

[Chip Butty]

If I ever do roll scum in a game with you I'll have to make sure to pay you back for Micro 725.

Hehe, good luck with that You're going need a long con plan to get me back for that one. Also the last run of this set-up I actually called out the entire scum team rather early but other townies either did something that caught my eye more or I second guessed myself in the reads. So this time around, when I start pegging people, they're going to be ran up the damn wall fully this time. No backing off hard reads this run.

Also this time around if I were mafia, I could just nightkill people rather than pull a "Hey, we got them cornered guys, so they had to put 3 townies up on the block" Hehehe, that was a risky move on my part, but so worth it.

Anyway, I gotta prepare for class. This time around I won't be as talkative as before (maybe) because of classes ongoing. But I feel bad for scum this game, I notice a lot of new faces to this duo. If Alchemist is town this game, you fucked mafia, you completely fucked.

Has anyone pointed out the last para is so LAMIST? I think someone pointed out that the Alch quote here is also LAMIST. Slightly unpleasant wannaber hard guy vibe but that's NAI of course. I'd have to meta-dive to see if this his usual town playstyle but don't have time. Leaning green for now i guess.

After some early doubts I'm seeing Realio as probtown. He's kinda cocky, makes me think he is a know-it-all student type. Has a tendency to waffle but i think his heart is in the right place here. Lean green.

Luca: prob my strongest pick for town right now.

Mulch: uncharacteristically quiet...

[Chip Butty]

I.o.u. will try to get back and flesh this out a bit in the not-too-distant future i hope. Sorry if i missed anyone.

[Chip Butty]

Oh grapes of course. Leaning green here...more later, sorry

[Chip Butty]

@UnaH: Yeah, I did all that on my phone, which is a bit limiting. Probably should have gone back to check but it seemed like too much bother at the time. Now I'm on my laptop but i can't hang around.

I'm just going to do a tentative Rangerlist in lieu of full reads for now...

[Luca]
[Realeo, Alch]
[Ironstove, Assembler, GNB, CK, Mulch]
[IceGuy, UnaH]
[Duckworth]

Hope I got everyone!

[Chip Butty]

Damn! Forgot grapes again. Sorry, grapes. Second tier.

[Chip Butty]

This is your town captain speaking. A quick reminder that we are playing Mafia, not the Apprentice. Thank you!

YOU'RE FIRED!!!!

[Chip Butty]

One other thing...the squabble over what position i was in the top tier of someone's readlist is ridiculous. Please stahp.

[Chip Butty]

Do you always get your #1 scumread lynched? Don't you see the point in compromising?

Isn't it too early to compromise? I personally would only compromise during deadline or people are starting to tunnel.

I haven't changed my vote from UnaBombaH and I currently do not intend doing so (especially with his first "content" post, which is basically OMGUS). I still hope the UnaBombaH wagon goes through.

However, if the UnaBombaH wagon falls apart and there's a wagon on any of the other three (and they do not start being towny posters), I will immediately switch. I would also switch back if there's a UnaBombaH wagon after all and he doesn't suddenly start to become town.

Read list:

Town: Chip Butty/Alchemist/Realeo
Leaning town: Luca/CK/grapes
Neutral: Mulch/GNB
Leaning scum: ironstove/Duckworth
Scum: Assemble/UnaBombaH

I tend to capitalize when I'm referring to a specific faction and not capitalize when just using the generic town/scum terminology. First time someone's found that scummy, though memorably not the first time I've had people calling me scum over capitalization. Not pulling a stunt like that again anytime soon...

Thanks for posting! Anything else to say?

The issue is that I am not sure what is your definition of constructive

Constructive in that context is: Contributes to the game with a town mindset, which involves a honest approach to discussion.

Iceguy why do you tr Chip?

Question has already been answered. I believe he does things wrong, but he comes from a towny position.

That's irrelevant as it neither applies to you nor me so far.

You've stated you're willing to compromise on lynching players who currently have zero votes.

Yes. If the person I want to lynch most doesn't get lynched, and any of the other would.

Why shouldn't I mention it in my post? It's factual, and I'm not going to waste my time justifying it to you.

As I said, you're squirreling away. This is not town behavior. In Mafia, you don't just state a fact.

Read list:

Assemblerowts

- Powerlurker. Only post that is not RVS or answers a question coming from RVS is a reply to my post. No reads, no content, and there's this strange capitalization. Even if he's not scum for some reason, town improves by getting rid of him.

Scum, will vote if wagon forms

Realeo

- Contributes constructively, uses meta to his advantage. A bit arrogant, but partly justified because he's mostly posting things that are true.

Town

Chip Butty

- Calls out UnaBombaH and Duckworth, people I consider to be in the scum/powerlurker category. Generally is not averse to starting wagons and often (not always) has good reasons for it.

Town

GameNBurger

- At first, he did contribute, however he's now firmly in lurker territory. #138 is a good post, if he'd kept up posting things like this, he'd be town. I believe he has RL issues, so I'm not going to sort him in the scum category.

Neutral

ironstove

- Completely useless player. No content at all which makes it hard to form reads.

Leaning scum or useless town, will probably vote if wagon forms

Luca Blight

- Changed my read because of his refusal to answer a simple question. In #304, he says Chip is "first name on [my] Townie list". In #308, I tell him that the order in the list has no significance, in #312 he says he was aware of it. Yet, he repeatedly claims that he "just posted a fact" and refuses to say why he posted it (#317, #337).

Leaning scum, will probably vote if wagon forms

DuckWorth

- Mostly lurker with a vote that reeks of OMGUS. Needs to post more and not just about Chip.

Leaning scum or useless town, will probably vote if wagon forms

Mulch

- SmoothBlue never posted outside of RVS and I simply can't read Mulch.

Neutral

Alchemist21

- Used to be the most constructive and interesting to read player in the game, however I feel he's been coasting recently, which changed my read. There's this nagging voice in my head that says he just tried to build up towncred, now got enough and plans to coast until a mislynch.

Leaning town

grapes

- Had a bad start but has evolved into a player that could post more but when he posts, is insightful and seems honest.

Leaning town

CommKnight

- See Alchemist. Was the first to post a comprehensive read list, but has contributed little since than.

Leaning town

UnaBombaH

- I believe I have already talked about this.

Scum, currently voting

My assessment of IceGuy has changed a bit since going over his ISO again. I...kinda find IceGuy's readlists to be fairly good. My main point of disagreement is with the Luca scumread here. While i think those two are squabbling over trivia, i think the fact that he keeps picking fight with someone who seems widely townread is more towny than scummy. Okay a lot of this stuff isn't wildly original but it's d1 in a slow game, so there's not huge amounts of material yet. He's being combative with both Luca and Una and, while this is something scum can do, again it pushes him toward town for me. He's not hesitating to get clear reads on the record too. So nothing conclusive but i can't find a whole lot to hate. I'm going to move him to townlean, second tier.

I'm largely in agreement with Luca's division into lynchable and u lynchable with now the exception of Ice and noting Mulch as a norderline case. I still think Duckworth is scum but i don't particularly want to lynch a lurker d1, so i think i am going to

UNVOTE: VOTE: UnabombaH

In addition to reasons already stated, his lynch might shed light on his association with Ice at some point. Not supwrscummy, but probably our best option.

[Chip Butty]

[Luca]
[Realeo, Alch, grapes, IceGuy]
[Ironstove, Assembler, GNB, CK, Mulch]
[UnaH]
[Duckworth]

Updated.

Slow game. Hopefully the lurkers will get their shit together.

[Chip Butty]

I messed up the quoting there, but nothing substantial^

[Chip Butty]

A large amount of Ice's reads list are activity based. You like that Chip?

I don't hate it d1 in a game as slow as this.

Good to see you getting involved, whatever your alignment. Might liven things up a bit. Inb4 pocketing.

[Chip Butty]

Mulch, would you mind reading Alch and Luca when you have time?

[Chip Butty]

I think that if Ice flips scum, Una is relatively spewed town. I don't think they are capable of scum theatre like this

So vice versa as well?

[Chip Butty]

1. Assemblerotws. <- You know how I feel about this spot
2. Realeo. <-
3. Chip Butty<- I have been considering should this is a play style issue. Still can't shake it off, sorry.
4. GameNBurger <- I JUST REALIZED I NEVER TALK ABOUT THIS. I literally skipped him. Sorry.

I don't really like this guy.

I'm on phone and really don't have time for a proper long response so IOU

But I'm short yes I ultimatley read you as town, I think your behavior is being perceived as low hanging fruit for scum to poke at. Pun intended.

At the moment your votes were on people criticizing you, which I could see as plausible votes given how fast some people pushed you but at the moment you reeked of previous players I've played with before, but I'd like to apologize since after diving into your meta I get the sense of a completely different person than what I've been perceiving this game. Which is disconcerting in a completely different way, but ultimately I couldn't find a game where you were pushed so hard at the beginning in your meta anyways. Really when I start directly engaging with you in the posts (yes the irony of the conclusions of the first post is not lost on me) is when I started to buy you were more of a town lean.

[SNIP]

I don't buy that you don't have time for long explanation but have time for meta dive.

If Una and IceGuy become townier at last second, I can flash wagon him.

5. ironstove <- Vig this. Thx
6. IceGuy <- I kinda town lean this guy, until UnaBombaH reminded me of his fos at him is not justified
7. Luca Blight <- I need more sample than his read @IceGuy. However, unlike Allomancer, I would be generous and give him town lean
8. Duckworth <- I don't necessarily think his vote at CB is a bad vote. There are some questions to answer (for instance, why CB's attempt to recoup it is not enough?)
9. Mulch SmoothBlue <- Sorry. No clues.
10. Alchemist21 <- I am a little bit surprised how he did not question about IceGuy's fos at UnaBombah as well. I think his vote for UnaBombah makes senses.

11. grapes / <- I am comfy with this guy

12. CommKnight <- You know how I feel this spot
13. UnaBombaH <- You know how I feel this spot.

Damn! Forgot grapes again. Sorry, grapes. Second tier.

Something inside my brain keep pinging that ChipButty is scum with grapes.

Why the change on grapes?

[Chip Butty]

I don't really understand what you're getting at.

Are you calling us 'inconsistent' for not taking meta into account, or are we being inconsistent because we're not in-keeping with our own meta?

This goes for me too.

[Chip Butty]

I'm not sure why you're including me in that '5', Realeo.

I didn't 'clear you' because of your meta, just the same as I haven't judged anyone else, positively or negatively, from their meta.

This too except for noting Mulch seemed quiet by his standards earlier.

[Chip Butty]

I was expecting someone to do POE analysis.

I'm planning to do that, using some of the infinite time i have on my hands. Right after i complete my multi-site meta analysis of everybody and finish the number crunching on my multivariate pre-flip association calculations.

[Chip Butty]

I take it you're joking with the most recent post Raeleo, I'm really bad at reading jokes and you like joking a lot which isnt a bad thing so I apologize if I misread things

That is a passable catch up.

UNVOTE:

That's how it's done, folks...

[Chip Butty]

[Luca]
[Realeo, Alch, grapes, IceGuy]
[Ironstove, Assembler, GNB, CK, Mulch]
[UnaH]
[Duckworth]

Updated.

Slow game. Hopefully the lurkers will get their shit together.

Realio and GNB, could you each post one of these? I think it would give a clearer view on where you're at. You are obviously both very fond of typing. Meanwhile I'm bumping each of you down a notch while i try to decide if all this verbosity might be scum-motivated.

GNB: Ironstove's posting style is admittedly weird, but do you see it as actually scummy? As in something scum would actually do?

[Chip Butty]

[Luca]
[Alch, grapes, IceGuy]
[Realeo, Ironstove, Assembler, CK, Mulch]
[UnaH, GNB]
[Duckworth]

Latest version.

[Chip Butty]

Someone tell me who I should vote for

Unabombah...

[Chip Butty]

Hello, this is dog.

Good-bye.

Wake me up when it's day 2.

I'm almost townleaning this guy. It would be stunningly ballsy for scum to play like this. I think he might be one of those players qho thinks d1 scumhunting is largely useless, of which there are many.

[Chip Butty]

[Luca]
[Alch, grapes, IceGuy]
[Realeo, Ironstove, Assembler, CK, Mulch]
[UnaH, GNB]
[Duckworth]

Latest version.

As a protest for being scumread for "being verbose", I'm using a picture because..it's zero word?



The more left you are, the townier I read you.
The wider the bar, the more uncertain I am.

Not to be read in an absolute scale (conf town to conf scum) but as a relative scale (the townies of all to the scummies of all)

I'm not scumreading you, I'm nullreading you.

[Chip Butty]

But thanks, that is actually quite helpful...

[Chip Butty]

Meanwhile I'm bumping each of you down a notch while i try to decide if all this verbosity might be scum-motivated.

I can quote my entire history to show that I am a verbose player.

I...believe you.

[Chip Butty]

But what i am thinking is maybe it is a consciously designed meta so when you are scum you can post walls and people go oh that's just Realeo Realeoing...

[Chip Butty]

@CB

Have you play with Not_Mafia before?

The name rings a bell...maybe back in the day on my first stint here. I'm surprised you asked me rather than look it up...

[Chip Butty]

My point is that there are some ballsy player that would act like ironstove whose mafia modus operandi is doing exactly nothing.

Let's say that Not mafia is anti-Realeo, if you know what I mean.

That's my modus operandi irl most of the time.

I guess if Ironstove is Not mafia, we have to assume he is town.

^joke

[Chip Butty]

But what i am thinking is maybe it is a consciously designed meta so when you are scum you can post walls and people go oh that's just Realeo Realeoing...

This is why I always take meta with a pinch of salt.

If Realeo posts tons of walls every time he is Town, is he really going to get by posting the occasional one-liner as scum?

If someone like Una usually posts a lot of fluff and jokes as Town, are they suddenly gonna get super serious as scum?

Not only would it stick out like a sore thumb, but they are also going to be more used to their 'natural' style, regardless of alignment.

Yeah, meta gets talked about so much I'm pretty sure just about everyone is conscious of their meta except absolute noobs who by definition don't have one, even if it isn't 'designed' per se.

[Chip Butty]

Like a poker tell. Yeah i could see something like that happening. I imagine in must be rare in typed formed though, as typing is such a conscious act.

[Chip Butty]

Inb4 someone puts us three together as the scumteam based on all this non-scumhunting 'fluff' and "over-theorising".

[Chip Butty]

Like a poker tell. Yeah i could see something like that happening. I imagine in must be rare in typed formed though, as typing is such a conscious act.

Exactly the point. Sometimes you are trying so hard to hide one, you create one. I personally have one. It's just people haven't caught on it.

That doesn't make sense. Once you're aware of it you can just stop doing it.

[Chip Butty]

I'm worried that maybe my impression that your heart is in the right place might actually be at least partially a by-product of your verbosity. That's why i asked for the snapshots from you and GNB, so i could see at a glance where you're really at.

[Chip Butty]

I suppose i should say 'where you want to be seen to be really at', for the sake of technical correctness...

[Chip Butty]

Yeah i wouldn't want to go into lylo with Ironstove if he keeps this up.

[Chip Butty]

[Luca]
[Realeo, Alch, grapes, IceGuy]
[Ironstove, Assembler, GNB, CK, Mulch]
[UnaH]
[Duckworth]

Updated.

Slow game. Hopefully the lurkers will get their shit together.

Realio and GNB, could you each post one of these? I think it would give a clearer view on where you're at. You are obviously both very fond of typing. Meanwhile I'm bumping each of you down a notch while i try to decide if all this verbosity might be scum-motivated.

GNB: Ironstove's posting style is admittedly weird, but do you see it as actually scummy? As in something scum would actually do?

Also do you still want game proof of my (apparent) verboseness? I have a very small account so it'd be under my first normal game here, it was kill all townies, I was vanilla townie, and I'm pretty sure I spent a lot of early game rebuking people for claiming I was talking too much

I really don't want to fetch a link tho but I will if you realllly need one

No, wasn't asking for meta, just a snapshot along the lines of this one...

TR
TL
NULL
SL
SR

[Chip Butty]

No problem. I'm out for several hours anyway. Rl stuff...

[Chip Butty]

Whoops excuse my drop dead tired brain

Will do but it will be a lot of null due to the amount of lurkers

Actually, now that you joined the game in earnest and Assembler has promised to do so soon, the lurker pool might soon be just Duckworth. I'd class Ironstove as low activity but not a lurker, since he has drawn attention to himself, no doubt intentionally, which is the polar opposite of lurking.

[Chip Butty]

Assembler needs to start posting something of substance. Nothing so far, except for defence against the capialisation thing. We need some reads...

[Chip Butty]

VOTE: CommKnight
This guy was one of the people who sank me hard last time we played.

Are you going to crumb for your traitor?

This went over my head earlier. I'm sure you've played enough mafia to know how a mafia traitor role works. And it is in the OP that they know who the goons are.

What's the dealeo, Realeo?

[Chip Butty]

Mulch, what do you rate the chances of Una-Ice being TvT?

[Chip Butty]

25% sounds about right...

[Chip Butty]

Maybe even less than that. 15-20%

[Chip Butty]

Prefer IceGuy. Please.

If time is getting short and IceGuy has the leading wagon, I'll switch.

[Chip Butty]

Aside from Realeo the wagon on Ice Guy is filled with non-townie players. So I'm going to stick to my guns and stay on Una. Obviously they're trying to divert away from Una.

You've been saying all game you think i am scummy. I'm on UnaH...

[Chip Butty]

Speaking of this.

Mulch, what do you rate the chances of Una-Ice being TvT?

I think it's more likely to be traitor than mafia (or I would be expecting more people defending Una or IceGuy than just me) so my compromise vote is basically me asking my self "Which one is more likely to be a traitor?"

Only it is not just you defending either of them. Mulch has actively called for voting ice over unam And since two wagons have formed, voting for one could be seen as a defence of the other.

But when i said TvT i think it was quite clear i meant town v town yet you made this all about a traitor. Mulch saw right away i meant town v town and i think that was the natural interpretation.

This is the second curious post you've made concerning traitors...

[Chip Butty]

VOTE: CommKnight
This guy was one of the people who sank me hard last time we played.

Are you going to crumb for your traitor?

This went over my head earlier. I'm sure you've played enough mafia to know how a mafia traitor role works. And it is in the OP that they know who the goons are.

What's the dealeo, Realeo?

Here is the other one. No response from you yet.

[Chip Butty]

The traitor knows who the goons are, as someone pointed out. They don't need to crumb. It is the traitor, if not recruited, who needs to crumb. But I'm sure Realio knows this...

[Chip Butty]

I'm gonna take some time to look at iceguy again but..

I got prodded.

Seems we haven't got long left.

I don't want to vote Una so I will vote iceguy instead as there doesn't appear to be any traction for a ChipButty or Grapes lynch.

VOTE: Iceguy

Can we lynch this instead guys?

I'd lynch Duckworth in a heartbeat if there was support for it. Worried about the looming deadline though...

[Chip Butty]

[Luca]
[Alch, grapes]
[IceGuy, Realeo, Ironstove, Mulch]
[UnaH, GNB, Assembler, CK]
[Duckworth]

Latest version. My overall faith in humanity has been eroded somewhat. 3 players demoted and none promoted. If Mulch was almost anyone besides Mulch, would probably promote to tl, but I'll hold off for now. Assemble demoted for not posting any substance as deadline looms. Will discuss CK when i get back. Haven't been super impressed with IceGuy's recent stuff. More about that later too.

[Chip Butty]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Duckworth

At this point i think i am as likely to switch to IceGuy to break a tie between him and UnaH.

[Chip Butty]

[Luca]
[Realeo, Alch, grapes, IceGuy]
[Ironstove, Assembler, GNB, CK, Mulch]
[UnaH]
[Duckworth]

Updated.

Slow game. Hopefully the lurkers will get their shit together.

Realio and GNB, could you each post one of these? I think it would give a clearer view on where you're at. You are obviously both very fond of typing. Meanwhile I'm bumping each of you down a notch while i try to decide if all this verbosity might be scum-motivated.

GNB: Ironstove's posting style is admittedly weird, but do you see it as actually scummy? As in something scum would actually do?

Also do you still want game proof of my (apparent) verboseness? I have a very small account so it'd be under my first normal game here, it was kill all townies, I was vanilla townie, and I'm pretty sure I spent a lot of early game rebuking people for claiming I was talking too much

I really don't want to fetch a link tho but I will if you realllly need one

No, wasn't asking for meta, just a snapshot along the lines of this one...

TR
TL
NULL
SL
SR

Whoops excuse my drop dead tired brain

Will do but it will be a lot of null due to the amount of lurkers

GNB, could you please do this before someone hammers? Thanks...

[Chip Butty]

Everybody please give GNB a chance to provide a snapshot of his reads before hammering...

[Chip Butty]

As a protest for being scumread for "being verbose", I'm using a picture because..it's zero word?



The more left you are, the townier I read you.
The wider the bar, the more uncertain I am.

Not to be read in an absolute scale (conf town to conf scum) but as a relative scale (the townies of all to the scummies of all)

Realio's take on the Duckworth wagon will be interesting to see, since DW was the one player he didn't give a rating...

[Chip Butty]

I guess the only positives to come out of all that are that the pool is considerably smaller, and we got some info from the flips. And we have a vig as has been pointed out, which could be good or bad fir town, it's up to us. I agree with whoever said IceGuy was likely the vig shot.

Specifics: I don't mind the CK vig pool idea but the pool should be chosen from the Duckworth wagon PLUS Mulch, who offered to hammer PLUS Realeo, who explicitly approved of it near the end.

Which brings me to a question: Realeo, why didn't you vote for anyone?

Mulch is probably my top scumpick right now. Not only did he offer to hammer Duckworth but he was strongly pushing IceGuy as the lynch. Unabomber has had a towner tone today and late d1 but his flip would provide a lot of association info.

Alch isn't looking quite as good to me today. It was he who got the Duckworth wagon started in earnest late d1. This only matters if Una is scum though. I'm thinking maybe lynch Una and definitely have Mulch in the vig shoot pool.

[Chip Butty]

Sorry, I meant UnabombaH...

[Chip Butty]

What specifically is bad,?

[Chip Butty]

Which brings me to a question: Realeo, why didn't you vote for anyone?

One does not simply hammer someone without a claim.

I interpret that to mean that if you were going to vote for anyone, it would have been Duckworth. Thanks.

[Chip Butty]

I do agree ChipButty's post is bad. It feels forced IIOA and surprisingly too linear coming from a ChipButty, but it's more to yellow flag given it's early and IIOA is pretty much NAI early.

Sometimes your thought process really perplexes me. How did you get iioa outbof my post? It's nearly all analysis.

Interesting it is you and Mulch criticising my post when in it I drew attention to the commitment of both of you to the Duckworth lynch, even though neither of you is on the official wagon.

[Chip Butty]

WAIT. WAIT. WAIT.

Why ChipButty is fosing (too strong of a word, but you get my point) Alchemist for starting the DuckWorth wagon...when DuckWorth is the guy that ChipButty want?

That's like accusing the drug-dealer for making you OD for delivering the cocaine to you when you are the one who requested the cocaine.

Maybe calm down and read what i actually wrote? I said Alch only looked bad if Una is scum, which we don't know yet. And even then i didn't say he was scum, only that he didn't look as good as before. I certainly wanted to lynch Duckworth but it wasn't until that Alch post that i actually thought it could happen.

[Chip Butty]

Also the drug dealer could have given me purer shit than usual and not told me, so it could be partly his fault. He has a duty of care to his customers, you know.

[Chip Butty]

I don't see analysis at all.

Mulch pushed for IceGuy...that is factual, but so what?
I am not on the wagon...well that is fact of life.
Alchemist seems bad for starting the wagon...well..you don't say.

Something that I would consider as analysis would be something like "Why do I think that Mulch is scum who is afraid to bus instead of stupid town" or "Why do I think Realeo is non-commital mafia having a good alibi instead of town genuinely waiting for claim."

Mentioning the obvious is not analysis. However, I don't think it's scummy because early in game, someone has to mention the obvious soon or later.

Define analysis however it works for you and your dictionary. I don't think you understand what iioa is.

[Chip Butty]

I said Alch only looked bad if Una is scum, which we don't know yet. And even then i didn't say he was scum, only that he didn't look as good as before. I certainly wanted to lynch Duckworth but it wasn't until that Alch post that i actually thought it could happen.

So you are just saying it for the sake of saying it?

No i was pointi g out one of the association benefits from a Una lynch. Are you on drugs RIGHT NOW? I'm going to tell Joko.

[Chip Butty]

If mentioning the obvious is analysis, what is information?

Iioa is what you did with your philosophy wall. Now do you get it?

[Chip Butty]

Wait ChipButty. We have to wait for CommKnight to properly start this semantic disagreement. Semantic disagreement is more fun when someone is scumreading you for it.

I think I'll leave it for you guys to thrash out. I don't need to lose more minutes of my life that i could use for, I don't know...oh yeah, ACTUALLY SCUMHUNTING.

[Chip Butty]

Mulch is probably my top scumpick right now. Not only did he offer to hammer Duckworth but he was strongly pushing IceGuy as the lynch. Unabomber has had a towner tone today and late d1 but his flip would provide a lot of association info.

This is bad for so many reasons.


1) Offering to hammer Duck when it was obvious that he was going to be lynched is not scummy. In fact, I didn't even want the wagon, so the fact that you are trying to say it is scummy that I was

willing to hammer

when I didn't even PUSH it or wasn't even on it in the first place is bogus
2) I pushed IceGuy as a lynch but the entire fucking game pushed Ice or Duck as a lynch. You are signalling me out for wanting someone dead when every single person wanted one of these two dead. Which means nothing I did was anything more scummy than anything anyone else did.
3) You are agreeing with my Unabombah association read yet are scumreading me for voting them.

Welcome to my scum list

tl;dr: OMGUS.

[Chip Butty]

Chip, your acting totally different than our werewolf game. I think you randed scum, buddy.

But you're not.

When does the self-voting start? You might as well tip your hat right now.

[Chip Butty]

You are signalling me out and creating fake reasoning, and if you want to convince me otherwise you can go through my 3 points and explain why they are wrong

You have two VCA strikes against you and that stands out a bit this early in the game. But you know how i work: i prod people hard and see how they react. I can't say your reaction has been reassuring. Or Realeo's. You both seem a little excited.

Sure, I'm the first to admit it isn't a damning case but show me a better one than you or Una...And you weren't just on the IceGuy wagon, you were pushing it very hard.

And it's 'singling out' not 'signalling out'.

[Chip Butty]

Wait. Why is it omgus? ChipButty haven't even vote anyone? He is just....shade-throwing?

Stahp being so pedantic and nit-picking.

[Chip Butty]

And Mulch, are you still scumreading IceGuy?

Yes..

VOTE: IceGuy

I can see Una flipping both allignments...the main thing against him is his "reaction test" day 1...said by many a scum.

Yet, I don't know if that's something Una would not do. Their post to me asking to move up the reads list was towny...

Prefer IceGuy. Please.

ISO ironstove or Assemblerowts and tell me whether you can form a better read.

Why are you scumreading them if there isn't material to form a good read...




I think this flips scum..

Man I really think ice flips scum

That's not just 'being on the wagon'...

[Chip Butty]

Aren't you the person who pushed hard DuckWorth and he flipped town

as well

?

Sure. That's a strike against me. But you saw how easily the DW wagon went. There's only 3 scum and i doubt all would be on tbe wagon so that means there was a lot of town enthusiasm there. Mulch stands out to me a bit for having two strikes. But more for his excited reaction given i didn't even vote him. This is scum.Mulch behaviour i think.

[Chip Butty]

Aren't you the person who pushed hard DuckWorth and he flipped town

as well

?

Sure. That's a strike against me.

But you saw how easily the DW wagon went. There's only 3 scum and i doubt all would be on tbe wagon so that means there was a lot of town enthusiasm there.

Mulch stands out to me a bit for having two strikes. But more for his excited reaction given i didn't even vote him.[/size] This is scum.Mulch behaviour i think.

Elaborate on this. You're skipping way too many insights and just jump on conclusion.

Help me get on the same page with you.

I understand the premise of "DW's wagon is quick" but Is "wagon speed" a reliable parameter in this case? We're talking of a deadline lynch. A quick wagon in the middle of deadline may do shout town ethusiasm, but in a deadline wagon--how do you seperate paniking town and opportunistic mafia?

Okay. So it took 7 to lynch. And you and Mulch were unoffi ial members of the wagon, so 9. So, at least 6 town among them and more likely seven. I'm just saying being on the DW wagon isn't bad in itself. I'm singling Mulch out because he was also pushing the IceGuy wagon hard. The ease with which the wagon formed is interesting because it could have gone the other way, ie a battle of the Una and Ice wagons.

I know you like meta. If you want, check out Normal 1948, which just ended. See how scum.Mulch acts under pressure. Admittedly, he hasn't reached that level here yet.

[Chip Butty]

You are signalling me out and creating fake reasoning, and if you want to convince me otherwise you can go through my 3 points and explain why they are wrong

But you know how i work: i prod people hard and see how they react. I can't say your reaction has been reassuring. Or Realeo's. You both seem a little excited..

So here's what I am seeing here.

You think that I am triggered by you and I am

attacking

you

with

Mulch because we get defensive and a little bit too excited, right?

Wrong.

What you don't understand is that I am not attacking you, I am

defending

you

from

Mulch.

Don't you notice how I downplay your post? Don't you notice how I gave Mulch a prod of not voting too quickly.

Just because someone confronts you, does not mean he attack you. He's probably just want to correct you.

Because mafia...is a feedback process.

#PhilosophyWall
#GodIAmSoTemptedToMakeTrumpWallJoke

I have to say that that particular interpretation of your posts didn't leap out at me, but if you say so...

[Chip Butty]

EBWOP

There is some premise that I disagree [like counting Mulch as unofficial member. That's just nit-picking.] but let us pretend that I agree with you for the sake of discourse. FTR, I do agree on you with the ease of the wagon. Some of the vote seems sketchy non-commital.

What do you think of Luca? I personally think he pushes harder (literally IceGuy is his fetish) and he's also on the wagon. There are two strikers as well.

I just read over Luca's ISO and yeah he pushes Ice hard and long and was also on the DW wagon. So two strikes against him too. But it feels different to me. Much more actual reasoning. More attention to detail, even to the slightly silly level of the micro-issue of where exactly i appeared in the top tier of an Ice reads list.

[Chip Butty]

lynch una then maybe chip n butts.

Bad doggy! No!...No!

[Chip Butty]

^The Una bit is probably ok, but it can't hurt to wait for him to get back.

[Chip Butty]

LOL.

[Chip Butty]

I think we do need to see Una flip. Intent to hammer.

Any objections from anyone? Speak now or stfu later...Una, any final words in your defence?

Okay, I'll give it a few hours. We've heard from Una a few times, so he has had a chance to mount a defence.

[Chip Butty]

If you add those 2 you're making the pool nearly as big as the whole game. And does it really look like I was bussing Una to you?

Why is that a problem? Nobody is cleared yet, so we can all go in the vig pool as far as i'm concerned. And the good thing about the modified CK proposal is that it is objective. Those on the wagon plus Mulch who said he would hammer plus Realeo who said he was down with the lynch. Once we start making exceptions based on subjective impressions, that goes out the window.

We should probably get this pool thing sorted befote hammering lol. Too late after...

[Chip Butty]

I think we do need to see Una flip. Intent to hammer.

Any objections from anyone? Speak now or stfu later...Una, any final words in your defence?

Okay, I'll give it a few hours. We've heard from Una a few times, so he has had a chance to mount a defence.

You just fucking scumread me for saying the same thing. This is scum

What? I scumread you as a reaction test based on you being ready to hammer DW AND being gung ho on the Ice wagon. And your reaction has been pure OMGUS aggression. I hope the vig takes you out tonight.

[Chip Butty]

Tip your hat Mulchy, it's over. Hyperaggressive Mulch = scum.Mulch

[Chip Butty]

You still haven’t said why my points are bad. It’s not OMGUS it’s your horrible mindset. You can’t disprove them because they are right and you are scum

Do i need to spell it out? Obviously yes, I do: R.E.A.C.T.I.O.N.

[Chip Butty]

Mulch, what do you rate the chances of Una-Ice being TvT?

Oh god... probability. 25%?

Ice flipped green. Why are you not on the Una wagon?

[Chip Butty]

Mulch is probably my top scumpick right now. Not only did he offer to hammer Duckworth but he was strongly pushing IceGuy as the lynch. Unabomber has had a towner tone today and late d1 but his flip would provide a lot of association info.

This is bad for so many reasons.


1) Offering to hammer Duck when it was obvious that he was going to be lynched is not scummy. In fact, I didn't even want the wagon, so the fact that you are trying to say it is scummy that I was

willing to hammer

when I didn't even PUSH it or wasn't even on it in the first place is bogus
2) I pushed IceGuy as a lynch but the entire fucking game pushed Ice or Duck as a lynch. You are signalling me out for wanting someone dead when every single person wanted one of these two dead. Which means nothing I did was anything more scummy than anything anyone else did.
3) You are agreeing with my Unabombah association read yet are scumreading me for voting them.

Welcome to my scum list

Okay then...
1. I didn't say wanting to hammer DW in itself was scummy. But in combination with your enthusiasm for the Ice lynch it made me notice you as a scum possibility.
2. But you were more persistent than most. Also, see 1.
3. As i have said repeatedly, i poked you for 1. and 2. Your reaction is pure scum.mulch from what i have seen.

[Chip Butty]

1.) Wait for Una to at least claim, hammering before Una's next post (which should be a claim and if it isn't auto-lynch), then that person that hammers should be shot tonight.

2.) Unless anyone has any objections or a reason to scumread me, I say let me pick the pool since I haven't done anything unreasonable or jumped the gun today. The pool will be of 3 people total. Assuming the vig is in this pool, then at least they have two choices, if not, then they have 3.

Now the pool I think should be:

- Chip Butty (Scummy play here and there + being a member of the bad quicklynch yesterday, he has earned his spot on this pool 10 times over).

LOL you are contradicting yourself. Scummy 'here and there' but earned my spot '10 times over'? You've been on my case all game and for bs reasons. Okay, let's see those 10 times, or were those just weasel words?

[Chip Butty]

You’ve had one game with me. As scum. Did you care to look at my towngames or did you just extrapolate it to fit your narrative?

Show me a game where you were lynched as Town and got all hyperaggressive.

[Chip Butty]

ISO ironstove or Assemblerowts and tell me whether you can form a better read.

Why are you scumreading them if there isn't material to form a good read...




I think this flips scum..

Man I really think ice flips scum

Ok, I’m 99% sure that chip is scum. Those who have played with me before know I’m right when I say this.

Yeah.

[Chip Butty]

You’ve had one game with me. As scum. Did you care to look at my towngames or did you just extrapolate it to fit your narrative?

Show me a game where you were lynched as Town and got all hyperaggressive.

Every. One.

So, are you saying that

1. You don't get hyperaggressive when attacked as scum, and this is therefore a scumtell for you, or
2. You do get hyperaggressive when attacked as scum?

[Chip Butty]

Also Chip, is there any REAL opposition to my suggested pool. Like do you really think you're that well town read right now to avoid any pool being put on the table?

Perhaps not, but you seem to be way pushing my inclusion more than can be justified. Why not Mulch? Are you townreading him that hard after d1/n1 and the points i raised? I fully realise it isn't the strongest case but he must be in the top 3? I don't see any point pushing the Mulch thing any further for now. It was a reaction test and we've all seen the reaction. I think we should let the have the opportunity to decide. If you want to include me, please state explicit up-to-date reasons.

[Chip Butty]

You’ve had one game with me. As scum. Did you care to look at my towngames or did you just extrapolate it to fit your narrative?

Show me a game where you were lynched as Town and got all hyperaggressive.

Every. One.

So, are you saying that

1. You don't get hyperaggressive when attacked as scum, and this is therefore a scumtell for you, or
2. You do get hyperaggressive when attacked as scum?

Neither

So, what's your take on the scum.Mulch meta? You've already said town.Mulch is 100% hyperaggressive when attacked...

[Chip Butty]

It seems you've already said that any game where you don't get hyperaggressive when attacked is a scumtell for you, since 100% of the time you do get hyperaggressive when attacked as town.

[Chip Butty]

After that Boon game, I am more wary of you. That was our first completed game and i have to say i find your usual tone in games does bias me a bit in favour of you being town. Once bitten twice shy and all that. But i did help lynch you eventually.

[Chip Butty]

No doubt i pushed those slightly harder than they deserved, but they're not bs. It's early days yet but on VCA so far you look worse than most. Of course, if Una flips green, almost everybody will look bad on VCA.

[Chip Butty]

The fact your saying that it's a reaction test is also scummy.

Not at all. I was hoping for all the hat tipping, self-voting, ragescreaming antics I've seen from scum.Mulch elsewhere.

[Chip Butty]

I just had 2 thoughts re the vig pool.

1. CK suggested, reasonably enough, the DW wagon as the vig pool but has resisted the addition of Mulch and Realeo. This could be for his stated reason (pool gets too big) OR it could be because he is scum and he knows one or both of those two are scum.

[Chip Butty]

2. The DW-wagon+2 lynch pool is probably too big, as CK says. I mean, there are 10 alive and that would include 9. So, on the assumption that not all scum would get on the expanded DW wagon, why not choose the vig pool from those NOT in it?

Lemme see...that would be...oh, CK. Who just happens to be the one pushing this idea.

[Chip Butty]

Is that an official accusation of "CK is scum with Realeo or Mulch" or just saying it for the sake of saying it?

Let's avoid semantic fight again.

It's neither. That's a false dichotomy. Reread the post. I say it can be either A or B. Obviously that's not an accusation.

It is something to consider.

[Chip Butty]

You said those on the wagon are scummy and those off the wagon are scummy

We all know scum can be on or off the wagon. I'm pointing to people who stand out in some way. Note that CK LAMISTly points to his noninvolvement in the DW lynch.

[Chip Butty]

Is that an official accusation of "CK is scum with Realeo or Mulch" or just saying it for the sake of saying it?

Let's avoid semantic fight again.

It's neither. That's a false dichotomy. Reread the post. I say it can be either A or B. Obviously that's not an accusation.

It is something to consider.

No, i used the term correctly. The false dichotomy: accusation or just for the sake of it. Third option: neither, just something to consider. You presented the available choicesas A and B but it was C.

[Chip Butty]

LOL i thought i was replying to Realeo but it was Mulch who accused me of misusing the term. On my phone, i have to scroll acrosd to see avatars.

[Chip Butty]

It is something to consider.

So you are saying for the sake of saying it, then.

WTF? Do you not understand the phrase 'something to consider'? It means i said it because i want people to think about it, not 'for the sake of it'? Do you understand what 'for the sake of it' means?

[Chip Butty]

I don't...have...a...conclusion. If i...did...I would...state it.