Open 698: Stack the Deck (GAME OVER)

[Mulch]

How is "You said you want to retract your town lean, that implies you think he's scum now" a fact?

It's an incorrect interpretation

He isn't putting his opinion on anything, he's just reiterating what retracting a town lean is

[GameNBurger]

Back from classes today finally! Now to continue. But first, something caught my eye:

GameNBurger's recent two posts are bad imo. Willing to change wagons to him.

I'm generally not in favor of people who think that talking about the game is scummy.

He then goes on to post fluff and theory.

Town does fluff, scum does fluff- fluff isn't allignment indicative on an invididual post basis, only as a volume read. But I am getting the feeling that he is subtly implying that he should not be scumread for what he is doing/is going to do...

Low hanging fruit booooooooooooo

So you're saying I should hold my opinion still but then not act on it???? You can check my other town game on the site, i generally talk about the game a lot because I don't beleive theres harm to doing so unless its PR hunting.

You're also taking my points for a walk there, I didn't say talking about the game is AI at all! I just disagree theyre scummy, and I think that actively trying to limit discussion is AI, scummy to be specific. Absencse of AI behavior does not imply the opposite of the AI behavior. In fact, you seem to understand this given the content of your post. So what are you saying exactly? Why does my behavior strike you specifically as trying to subtly imply I'm town given I havent explicitly or implicitly stated anything that I was doing was town?

I haven't scrolled down all the way to see your further posts so let me actually catch up to the present here

[Mulch]

133, first part of 164, 368

From skim on ISO. Must be gone for night though, now

[Mulch]

Why does my behavior strike you specifically as trying to subtly imply I'm town given I havent explicitly or implicitly stated anything that I was doing was town?

You commented on 8 pages of catchup with no substantial thoughts and a large theory post. Which isn't bad in itself... but you said separately, off hand, "people who talk about theory posts are not scummy" or something along those lines.

I dislike that you are focusing on how you subly impled your "not scum" rather than "town". There is no practical difference; your harping on word choice...if you subtly imply that you are not scum...cmon

[Mulch]

So you're saying I should hold my opinion still but then not act on it????

Your "opinion" is that theory posts are NAI....what exactly are you "acting on"? You are trying to act on having NAI posts?

No, I'm not saying you should hold an opinion and then not act on it... it makes no sense for you to "act" on this opinion...

[Chip Butty]

1. Assemblerotws. <- You know how I feel about this spot
2. Realeo. <-
3. Chip Butty<- I have been considering should this is a play style issue. Still can't shake it off, sorry.
4. GameNBurger <- I JUST REALIZED I NEVER TALK ABOUT THIS. I literally skipped him. Sorry.

I don't really like this guy.

I'm on phone and really don't have time for a proper long response so IOU

But I'm short yes I ultimatley read you as town, I think your behavior is being perceived as low hanging fruit for scum to poke at. Pun intended.

At the moment your votes were on people criticizing you, which I could see as plausible votes given how fast some people pushed you but at the moment you reeked of previous players I've played with before, but I'd like to apologize since after diving into your meta I get the sense of a completely different person than what I've been perceiving this game. Which is disconcerting in a completely different way, but ultimately I couldn't find a game where you were pushed so hard at the beginning in your meta anyways. Really when I start directly engaging with you in the posts (yes the irony of the conclusions of the first post is not lost on me) is when I started to buy you were more of a town lean.

[SNIP]

I don't buy that you don't have time for long explanation but have time for meta dive.

If Una and IceGuy become townier at last second, I can flash wagon him.

5. ironstove <- Vig this. Thx
6. IceGuy <- I kinda town lean this guy, until UnaBombaH reminded me of his fos at him is not justified
7. Luca Blight <- I need more sample than his read @IceGuy. However, unlike Allomancer, I would be generous and give him town lean
8. Duckworth <- I don't necessarily think his vote at CB is a bad vote. There are some questions to answer (for instance, why CB's attempt to recoup it is not enough?)
9. Mulch SmoothBlue <- Sorry. No clues.
10. Alchemist21 <- I am a little bit surprised how he did not question about IceGuy's fos at UnaBombah as well. I think his vote for UnaBombah makes senses.

11. grapes / <- I am comfy with this guy

12. CommKnight <- You know how I feel this spot
13. UnaBombaH <- You know how I feel this spot.

Damn! Forgot grapes again. Sorry, grapes. Second tier.

Something inside my brain keep pinging that ChipButty is scum with grapes.

Why the change on grapes?

[Luca Blight]

]

c) because I find asking for self-meta to be kinda pointless - if he's so aware of his own meta then it's devalued anyway, and if he's scum then again, why would willingly do Town's work for him? I'm not one to willingly supply self-meta myself regardless of alignment, so it would be a bit hypocritical of me to ask such a question.

@Luca

: I think I'm probably missing context for this, but why is this a reason to townread him and what exactly did he do regarding self meta?

Yes, you are missing the context. That was in reply to this question:

@Grapes: sorry if I've missed this in your gargantuan posts, but can you please link us to a game where you were town and played in a similar style?

@Luca: Speaking of easy, how come you have accepted Grape

I can't understand... can you explain it better?

You were asking why I was Townreading Grapes because of point C in post 164, but I wasn't townreading him for that - that was in reply to CB's question in 137 as to why I accepted Grapes' explanation of his playstyle.

How is "You said you want to retract your town lean, that implies you think he's scum now" a fact?

It's an incorrect interpretation

He isn't putting his opinion on anything, he's just reiterating what retracting a town lean is

But that isn't what retracting a Town lean is, as Realeo demonstrated - he didn't scumread CK after he 'retracted' his Town read - he returned to being ''null' as Realeo said in 101.

[Realeo]

Why the change on grapes?

It's not really a change. It's just what my inner vulnerable paranoid soul who is encaged in layers of ego is saying to me.

[Luca Blight]

And Mulch, are you still scumreading IceGuy?

[Luca Blight]

133, first part of 164, 368

From skim on ISO. Must be gone for night though, now

What's wrong with 368?

[GameNBurger]

Page 9 START:

Well I don't really see Raelo and Chip being on the same scum team, Unless they majored in scum theatre at Juliard.

Realo is backing up his habits, which takes busywork away from me

This just seems like a boring argument to me

let me keep reading and maybe the bigger picture will give me some perespective

END OF PAGE 9

moving on

Page 10 Start: (I'll do 2 per post to try and not fill the page)

Okay the boring conflict is resolved and the interaction ends positively

At this point i don't really see Chip's response as scummy here honestly, just the whole interaction not AI

A wild una appears and does nothing

Well he pops in to go "Yes I agree" and "i'll ISO top 5" despite the fact that people have been talking about him in the thread previously

Also It seems that i agree with Alchemist on the interaction (yes the irony of the last line and this one is not lost on me, I'd like to think i will have contributed more than una by the end of even this post tho)

IceGuys is catching up, votes una, which isnt a bad vote in my book at this point

Not sure how i feel about Duckworth's vote. I don't fault him necessarily, and i don't know him or his alt well at all, but it might just be i disagree that Chip is merely reactionary. Brutish maybe with some wrong opinions at absolute worst but i'm not sure if i'd call the Raeleo interaction scummy

Idk tho I also don't have a very strong town read on chip at all tho either

Next page

PAGE 10 DONE

Fuck it lets get a third:

PAGE 11 BEGIN:

I'm going to hate Ironstove so much this game. I hate this playstyle. Maybe it will change. I hope to god it does.

I seem to agree with Duck here.

256
Ironically this is the first reactionary vote I'd say chip has cast. Not in a bad way tho, I guess anything could fall into reactionary if you argue it far enough.

I'd say i only really see that post coming from town.

Looks like Una is caving to the pressure, in my eyes atleast.

Oh my god, is Una serisouly trying to say he's been playing shitty on purpouse, and that he town reads everyone who has been scumreading him for taking note?

269 Someone please tell me that hes saying something else. This is the laziest response to criticism I've ever heard and the stupidest day 1 strategy IMO if he's serious, and then its the worst decision to half ass it and then not commit to it. What the hell?

Side note: I still hate ironstove so much.

END PAGE 11

Okay thats three per post, let me keep to that number. I'm gonna finish these before doing everything else so I will be caught up by the end of the night, maybe within an hour or two.

[Realeo]

I guess anything could fall into reactionary if you argue it far enough

FINALLY! SOME ONE SAID IT!

[GameNBurger]

In between catchup posts I will atleast respond to direct posts and questions. Let me do that now.

So you're saying I should hold my opinion still but then not act on it????

Your "opinion" is that theory posts are NAI....what exactly are you "acting on"? You are trying to act on having NAI posts?

No, I'm not saying you should hold an opinion and then not act on it... it makes no sense for you to "act" on this opinion...

Okay I think we're both lost, or atleast I am. Completely reiterate what you find scummy just quoting the post you take issue with. I think this is more of a me issue, I'm just having trouble reading what you're trying to get across.

[GameNBurger]

PAGE 12 BEGIN:

Okay nothing interesting at the top other than misguided buddying from Raeleo

I say misguided for a reason, I'm not particularly a fan of it in mafia. That being said I don't find it AI until its a major patterm, which this is not.

What are peoples issue with Iceguy? Idk I'm not seeing it

Well okay maybe he could comunicate more but for this game the bar is pretty fucking low already and a full reads list is a plus for me, although a bit more of explanation of them would be great to see down the line.

Una is seriously claiming that his fake suminess 5D Chess bullshit is something he just pulls in other games. This is terrible and I feel more and more strongly about rolling Una all the way to L-1 at this point.

I feel Luca and Ice merely have a difference of opinion on who to lynch. I'm gonna go out on a limb and call town v town here.

Una is missing the point of it all I think.

END PAGE 12

START PAGE 13

Iceguy why are you seriously discussing post 17 This is so dumb

I'm still reading Ice v Luca as town v town

I'm more inclined to agree with Ice's general points for his reads list but with stuff like his analysis of 17 as evidence makes me hope he posts in more detail so I know i'm not injecting my own path of thinking into my image of his though process.

Una strikes me as scum popping in to look busy and just let the arguments roll on by.

I also seem to agree with Raeleo on this.

End PAGE 13

BEGIN PAGE 14

Assembletowns is back, he should really consider doing something

I also like his vote on Assembletowns here, pressure is good, atleast thats what im reading as whats happening.

Chip, what on earth is wrong with you, dull that edge man. You're not doing anything but provoking the guy at this point. What do you hope to accomplish with 345? It seems petty almost.

End Page 14 apparently

Really dissapointed with Chip and why are people forgeting about UNA

[GameNBurger]

Begin Page 15

Chip is still dissapointing me even more. I hate the "Lynch me then" attitude. It really is anti town.

What has happened grapes?

Grapes says something about my RVS post sucking, I haven't voted yet??????? I've also mentioned in literally every game here that I hate RVS, I don't know what do with it, and i basically wait for shit to just get going.

And chip is calling for lynching duck based on ducks attack of himself. Interesting. I don't particularly like that but I'll admit Duck hasnt done much of anything. I personally think theres other better lynch candidates.

End Page 15:

BEGIN PAGE 16:

I really hate IronStove.

If the discussion is still ongoing UNA is my strong pick for lynch candidate still.

Ugh the Luca v Ice is really starting wear on me but atleast theres no way in hell its scum theater

Raeleo touches on something that i glanced over but is a very good point about a fault in Iceguy's reads with Duckworth ; 394

Hey look UNA decides to actually get a full readlist

In my mind It hardly makes up for the bullshit of an excuse he made way back which i still stand by is enough alone to lynch him

END PAGE 16

BEGIN PAGE 17:

Hey look Raeleo is talking about me. I mean i wouldn't call it a full dive but I just skimmed till I found town, and found him posting similarly in said game, I didn't even bother to write it down and it was just quick and dirty fact checking. Due to my classes and personal life as priority #1 My schedule is... odd, to say the least. There was also noticeably less going on in the game at the time. I'll admit I havent given you much to chew on other than that tho.

Iceguy corrects his mistake.

Who is BNG? Is that GNB backwards? Thats what i'm going to assume.

Raeleo seems to be confirming that this is something UNA pulls on this site. I find that a bit more reassuring but I still think its absolutely stupid and would greatly encourage Una to cut that shit out, town is a collective effort not an individual, if i'm interpreting what you're saying correctly You're playing GOTCHA by forcing people to talk about you, or not necesarily GOTCHA, but something to get the game going? Its still stupid because its scummy behavior.

END PAGE 17

[Realeo]

You're playing GOTCHA by forcing people to talk about you, or not necesarily GOTCHA, but something to get the game going? Its still stupid because its scummy behavior.

But it's how I play almost all the time!

Did you just call me stupid?

*Realeo cries*

[GameNBurger]

Page 18:

Nothing too interesting and then i'm back to where I started.

Mulch posts more, I'm holding off on making a judgement call as I'm not sure what his issue with me specifically yet. Raeleo's vote makes sense to me given my post history up till now. I'd like to think I'm delivering and that comm can directly attest that this is pretty much how i post, in chunks that is, atleast to cover my ass when i get busy with life.

I take it you're joking with the most recent post Raeleo, I'm really bad at reading jokes and you like joking a lot which isnt a bad thing so I apologize if I misread things

Okay let me really take a good look at the votecount and decide my vote

WANT TO VOTE:
UNA- For obvious reasons. His strategy early game is the embodiment of the "I was pretending to be retarded" Comic i see around the web if he's serious

IronStove - Is he lurking too much for a normal Day 1 lynch for my tastes? Sure. Am I sick of this kind of useless playstyle? Absolutely yes. I played a game with this sort of thing recently and it is the most infuriating thing in the world. Please don't tolerate this. I would also like this out sooner or later or his ass is gonna get dragged to the ends of the earth.

I'm not feeling to strongly on everyone else. I agree that Assemble is teetering on the "make this die list" but I kinda want to see if he picks up this prod.

[GameNBurger]

VOTE: UNA

I REALLY don't see a good argument for this being not a safe vote.

[Realeo]

I take it you're joking with the most recent post Raeleo, I'm really bad at reading jokes and you like joking a lot which isnt a bad thing so I apologize if I misread things

I was being serious..except the crying part.

Being intentionally scummy is a really good tactic to sort people out especially if done right off the gate of RVS. My normal tactic would be something like grapes did--do something a little bit overblown, get scumread, then just be confindent and let my future action speak for itself. Sometimes you have to make sure that you don't get blown up on your own trick. I have a good batting average with being intentionally scummy, my self.

[Realeo]

That is a passable catch up.

UNVOTE:

Can we wagon Asesembrelowts?

[Luca Blight]

Any reason you prefer an Assemble lynch to any of the other lurkers, Realeo?

[Realeo]

I think my biggest issues with both Una and IceGuy is that there are both argument for and against each other--and it boils down to each player threshold, how much proof is enough or not enough--and it's kinda very easy for scum to fake the threshold and assuming there 1 scum in {Una, IceGuy}, it's easy for scum to mislynch instead of bussing.

The entire case on Una on basically boils down "Given the meta check, do you believe his narrative?" Some people say (like me) "His meta makes senses" and I found it fulfills the burden of proof. Other may say "It kinda helps but not really enough" and it's really easy for scum to tweak this their "level of proof needed to convince me otherwise" to their liking.

The entire case on IceGuy basically boils down "Do you believe his read progression?" Some people say it's too sketchy--a scum paniking--and find his void of action is unaccaptable while some people think IceGuy has done town enough and find the void of action is tolerable and it's really easy for scum to tweak their "level of toleratable lack of action"

[Realeo]

I don't understand why when I present meta, people are like "Uh ok, he checks out,"

so easily

but when I present meta for Una and IceGuy, people went "Uh no, it's not enough. You are going straight to thy kingdom come."

[Realeo]

Any reason you prefer an Assemble lynch to any of the other lurkers, Realeo?

You want to lynch ironstove?

[GameNBurger]

Any reason you prefer an Assemble lynch to any of the other lurkers, Realeo?

You want to lynch ironstove?

I would love to lynch ironstone. Just saying.

Also I just disagree about that strategy that una employed, and they really didn't benefit from it, and they haven't done much, but enough to check in and look busy.

Side note, there's a good chance assemble may not pick up this prod. Mod can we have more time if this happens?