Mini Normal 2003: donezo

[Hopkirk]

Hey tchill, convince me you're town while I've got one hopefully good example of your town play fresh in my mind.

VOTE: cheeky VOTE:

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: cheeky
Phone voting is hard.

[Hopkirk]

One shot vigilante :/

L1 is very dumb on this site.

[Hopkirk]

Kind of like Tchill/Nm on the wagon.
Don't like screen. Blatant pr hunting.

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: screen
He isn't this stupid and this is a normal.

[Hopkirk]

My lunch break is over now so can't talk for a few hours.

[Hopkirk]

Screen probably wants a newbie/partner to hammer then intends to blame the hammer on them.

He's played this site enough to know how common quickhammers/lolhammers are, so that won't be a valid excuse.

[Hopkirk]

It's not a policy lynch. First two are probably random, second two I can see why they'd vote me (eh just finished a game with Tchill). Screen should know better though.

[Hopkirk]

Right now my vig shot is either screen, or either lurks hardest.

[Hopkirk]

It's a testable pr NM.

[Hopkirk]

Quickhammers are objectively bad.
Disappointed in Tchill's lack of unvote.

[Hopkirk]

Didn't notice how close that wagon was. That makes the first two leaving a vote there overnight (haven't checked in yet like T/N) more problematic.

[Hopkirk]

Timestamp close.

[Hopkirk]

Might test on NM too though.

[Hopkirk]

Hopkrick chilled out attitude about his wagon is odd. Hopkrick - why are you not talking about your quick wagon? Aren't you going to fight against it?

Players on it
Nm- he's a trolly player
Screen- trying to see what hes thinking
Love/Tchill- not necessarily scummy votes, I feel they're sortable to a degree from reactions
5th person who Idr name of atm- hasn't been online

Nothing really there that's cause for me not to be chilled out about except screen's hard role fishing and inconsistency.

[Hopkirk]

Tchill's vote I could see as town initially.
Love- would have been able to read his reaction better if he'd been around while I was still L1/L2. The tell I wanted to see won't be as strong now, though still applies.

[Hopkirk]

Nothing really there that's cause for me not to be chilled out about except screen's hard role fishing and inconsistency.

So why don't go against on those who are role fishing? Sounds like a decent place to start with?

Screen's the only person who did any rolefishing. I mentioned it before, but I've only just got my computer working so couldn't really quote/vote easily on the phone.

Lol.
I thought it was 7.
Not a normal 13p. Lol.

In the last few games I've played there's been multiple early game quickhammers. These harmed the town every time.
You know what this site is like at the moment. People lolhammer here.
Scum you could easily come here, put in the L1 and 'counterclaim' so that some newer player quickhammers believing you (or just a lolhammerer lolhammers). You'd then say d2 you didn't mean it, or blame the person who hammered when you're the one culpable.

You now seem to be claiming you thought that you were putting me on L2, not L1. This isn't believable given you mentioned L1/hammer, I said I was claming due to L1/lolhammers, and the general discussion of hammers. Plus it's unlikely in the first place you don't know the game size.

Either
-you weren't paying attention to the game, but made multiple comments that are far more likely to occur when you are paying attention to the game
-made a really stupid move of putting someone on L1 purely to rolefish
-you're scum (compatible with the other two)

VOTE: Screen
Either scum or VI. Thought he was better than this.

[Hopkirk]

One shot vigilante :/

L1 is very dumb on this site.

Why did you claim here?

Because Screen put me on L1. When you're on L1, you claim.
It used to be you'd wait until someone gave intent to hammer, but far too many people lolhammer at the start of the day these days for me to risk that (and it is very risky given I'm a semi-strong pr).

[Hopkirk]

Also I thought you were a newbie when I responded there Arc.
Why did you ask why I claimed on L1, and do you think Screen's sudden inconsistent flip + rolefishing isn't scummy?

[Hopkirk]

You forgot to address what I'm calling you inconsistent about.

[Hopkirk]

Scum banking on bad play seems plausible. It's still only a lean though. Don't like how he's trying to commit to it though. It seems like maybe he hoped it'd go through and now he's got to commit to bad play since he's already made the downpayment.
It's mostly policy though.

Claimed PR because fakeclaiming a worse role is dangerous, and because I don't like fakeclaiming as town for no good reason.
I haven't played with half this list, and I've seen a lot of lolhammers recently.
VT claim or no claim is far more likely to get lolhammered.

Not liking Arc though.

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: Ark

Yeah lets go here. Feels like she's positioning.

[Hopkirk]

I reread the post you quoted and realized he retracted his claim after he was counter claimed as a vigilante.
I don't know if that's a town post after remembering that.

I never retracted the claim. Not sure why two people think I did.

Love is town.

@Arc- why does trying to sort you not count as scumhunting?

[Hopkirk]

I reread the post you quoted and realized he retracted his claim after he was counter claimed as a vigilante.
I don't know if that's a town post after remembering that.

I never retracted the claim. Not sure why two people think I did.

Love is town.

@Arc- why does trying to sort you not count as scumhunting?

So you don't see the part where I am trying to figure out things in the subtle manner through questions? When did I declared that I take the job to sort things?

So what you call me? Not scum hunting and you happen to read LOVE town for what? For sheeping like a dog with no head?

Looking like you're 'trying to figure things out through subtle questioning' is NAI. Do you agree or disagree with this? An alternative question, do you think you can fake that as scum, or do you have a crippling weakness that means anyone who knows your basic meta can read you effortlessly?

I have a reason to light townread Love. It's affected heavily by future action depending on whether he continues to allign with the town or scum model. I like starting off by putting people into town/scum groupings. Is your problem with how I approach the game, or the fact I could have a light townread on him there?

[Hopkirk]

I feel like shooting the person with the lowest postcount.

[Hopkirk]

I could see the 5 person arc wagon there being town.

[Hopkirk]

Arc: where's scum on your wagon, where's bad players, and where's a third catagory if there is one?

[Hopkirk]

I thought screen retracted that vig claim.

[Hopkirk]

Implicitly in his last post.
It never sounded like he was really claiming vig.

[Hopkirk]

Want to see more catch ups before I answer that Q.

[Hopkirk]

I've also played with cheeky as town.

[Hopkirk]

oh damn who do i shoot

[Hopkirk]

Maybe Cheeky?

[Hopkirk]

Thoughts Tchill?

[Hopkirk]

I'm also considering NM/Imbad/TheWorst, as I said earlier I kind of just want to shoot a low poster.

[Hopkirk]

I'm not a fan of lolhammers, especially preclaim.

[Hopkirk]

Nm what changed your opinions?

[Hopkirk]

Oof I'm not townreading Srceen this time

Arc Srceen or Cheeky are seeming scummiest to me. N_M is null as shit. Others can be townleans, no one strikes me as super towny yet.

Can you explain your Screen/Cheeky reads?

You have never explained your reason to town read LOVE. You just you read him as town. It doesn't make any sense. She contributed nothing to the game apart from a BIG mouth. So how could you read her town until unless your faction tells tht she is.

(From Arc)
Why is that the only read you're interested in?

[Hopkirk]

Do you town read srceenplay TChill?

Cheeky can be town.

I'm also considering NM/Imbad/TheWorst, as I said earlier I kind of just want to shoot a low poster.

I think bad to end day before imbad is replaced

@mod replace imbad?

As soon as someone volunteers

I agree now, and I agreed when I wrote the post. Wanted to see how long it'd take for someone to point it out.

[Hopkirk]

Arc claim please?

VOTE: cheekyteeky

Like seriously that'd be the third claim day 1. Good joke.

who's the second? Why shouldn't someone claim if they're on L1 with possible intent to hammer?
Any thoughts on Alice sort of wanting to hammer?

It's legitimately bs that he has been here the whole day and I have a handful of content and get insta scumread.

more good stuff

[Hopkirk]

@Screen: are you retracting the vig claim yet.

[Hopkirk]

Townpool: Love/Cheeky/Tchill/The worst
Potential town or potential scum: Screen/Alice
Null: Havo/NM
Scummy: Arc

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: Alice

What are those extremely scummy things you mentioned earlier for both me and Arc?

[Hopkirk]

Any thoughts on Alice?

[Hopkirk]

Who's your scum/shootpool?

[Hopkirk]

Why Cheeky?

[Hopkirk]

I'd like it publically known that I'm not a fan of lolhammers on players who flip town.

Cheeky is probably town.

[Hopkirk]

How about we disband the Cheeeky wagon before someone gets hurt.

[Hopkirk]

Alice, back to Arc, try your luck on NM. Whatever.

[Hopkirk]

Havo: Alice or Arc?

[Hopkirk]

Why do I townread Lovebird Tchill?

[Hopkirk]

oh i remember nvm

[Hopkirk]

Tchill/Love/Cheeky/Screen/Worst I wouldn't lynch or shoot.
That leaves me Alice/Arc/Havo/NM.

[Hopkirk]

I'm going to say Arc but there's a 50% i'm wrong there

[Hopkirk]

@Arc: are you confident enough I'm scum that you wouldn't complain postgame if I shot you?

[Hopkirk]

What's your plan for sorting NM by d3?

[Hopkirk]

Why does lynching Havo sound appealing to me?

[Hopkirk]

Does it still work if he lurks?

[Hopkirk]

Who do you like.

[Hopkirk]

Arc I assume is lean scum?

[Hopkirk]

This isn't very active.
Maybe i'll just shoot whoever has the lowest postcount.

[Hopkirk]

Alice/Tchill: what are your reads on Havo?

[Hopkirk]

I can see where NM is coming from given I was considering Havo/Tchill as possible I think.

[Hopkirk]

@ARC
262- Sorting.
373- There's two people whose name start with A and I said 'I think this A did what you mentioned'. What changed about what?
377- I'm a vig. You said you think I'm scum earlier. I could shoot you tonight. How confident are you that I'm not really a vig?

Havo/Arc/Alice are potential lynched for me right now.

[Hopkirk]

Alice wagon is made up well atm.

[Hopkirk]

Reading Cheeky's scum game sometime would be a good idea.
I'll try and read Arc meta this weekend.

[Hopkirk]

Trying some stats stuff I've been meaning to try.
Arc, do you have basically no scum games or am i missing something?
Trying to find some more data points to make some stats stuff more reliable.

[Hopkirk]

I need to try someone else here.

[Hopkirk]

UNVOTE: Alice
want to talk first

[Hopkirk]

Did the analysis of Tchill. Assuming the games I looked at are still relevant to his playstyle, the difference was substantial enough that I think I can tell his alignment with 90%ish accuracy.
Doing it semi-manually, so my arm is kind of hurting and i haven't actually looked at how it compares to this game yet.

viewtopic.php?p=9549366&user_select%5B% ... 6#p9549366
viewtopic.php?f=53&t=72581&user_select[]=29616
viewtopic.php?p=9499772&user_select%5B% ... 6#p9499772
viewtopic.php?f=50&t=71224&user_select[]=29616
viewtopic.php?f=53&t=72179&user_select[]=29616

Measuring a specific set of metrics on a scale. They were at 39/36/36 in the three towngames and 14/19 in the two scumgames.
Results above 50 or below 10 should not occur I think.

[Hopkirk]

@Tchill: would you say these are typical games for you?

[Hopkirk]

I have a result and it very strongly matches either the scum or the town one. Will reveal which after Tchill responds.

[Hopkirk]

You realize that those games were my earliest ones where I was getting first time experience right? I honestly don't think they're similar to how I play now but I want to say yes just to see how your method works. You obviously sunk a lot of time into this.

Yeah, you seem to have adopted a more hyperposty style in some recent game, which I think have mostly/all been town though?
What I'm looking at relates to how you use language, so should hopefully still be relevant assuming a similar mindset as scum.

Anyway, this game gave a result of 41. Given I was already townreading you, and remembered some meta points while doing it, we're Best-friends (the mason style) now.

Got kind of a good result on Arc, but not enough data points to be confident.

[Hopkirk]

I would put Alice back on L1 if I hadn't seen NM lolhammer before.

[Hopkirk]

tbh I could always just shoot NM if that happened.

I still think of L1 as claim territory, not a signal that people should 'feel free to lolhammer'.
Obviously this is an issue when the slot is being replaced.

[Hopkirk]

The analysis I was doing wasn't enough for a strong townread, but I definitely want to (properly) read some of Arc's stuff before dayend.

[Hopkirk]

Why is NM crossed off of it.

[Hopkirk]

Wait, wait wait a second. Are you telling me all day 1 reads should be.... Concrete?

They're not? This changes everything!

[Hopkirk]

Would first time scum Havo avoid RVS intentionally?

[Hopkirk]

Would first time scum Havo avoid RVS intentionally?

Havo replaced in

EXACTLY

I'm going to try and put more effort in over weekend.

[Hopkirk]

So Havo's scum because he replaced in and I'm scum because I'd rather lynch someone that's gonna constantly be in my lynch pool instead of someone ik I can read in 2 day phases?

The resistance to the Alice wagon is the havo push.

Though D2 is 7 alive if my shot goes through. D3 is 5 alive.

[Hopkirk]

That really looks like the sort of catch up where meta would actually be valuable in sorting it.

[Hopkirk]

There's bits I like, and bits I don't like on a technical level.

Like: effort, sounds honest in parts.
Dislike: consistent tone. The start matches the end/conclusions. Seems to builds up to the conclusion from the start. Sounds confident/doesn't substantially divert path.
Not necesarily scum, but I remember doing the same thing as scum catching up once.

I should reread Cheeky still too.

[Hopkirk]

I did not shoot Screen as he was a strong townread.
Finding out whether my shot is used up before saying who I targeted.

[Hopkirk]

Are you BP?

[Hopkirk]

Just found out roleblocking doesn't refund shots based on the wiki either

[Hopkirk]

Nero said no when I asked if my shot was used up so not sure what would cause that in a normal.

[Hopkirk]

Oh, vig page says some people refund shots on a TV but the x-shot page doesn't.

[Hopkirk]

Actually, got another message. It is used up.

[Hopkirk]

I changed from Una to the worst 7 hours before deadline.

[Hopkirk]

Limited to mobile access until tomorrow GMT evening. Will not have any access most of that time.

[Hopkirk]

Someone could have told me the kill wasn't likely to go through. That'd have saved me a while agonizing using over it.

[Hopkirk]

Roleblocking seems more likely. Protection would make more sense on other slots.

It's one shot, so isn't 3 per cycle, only the first one.

[Hopkirk]

That is really bad phrasing Una.

[Hopkirk]

I considered killing Una/The Worst/Havo last night.

[Hopkirk]

I really should have checked those percents, though I thought shot roles got refunded if blocked.

@Nero- would an x-shot role lose a charge if roleblocking/jailkept while attempting an action?

[Hopkirk]

Havo avoided my shot on account of me not having time.

Who did people think I was going to shoot last night? Scum roleblocking me is probably more likely to happen if they think I'm likely to aim for scum (although there's other obvious reasons to RB me there, and they might not risk it if only 2 of them).

[Hopkirk]

I'd expect people to think I'd shoot Una there yeah.

[Hopkirk]

Una would be so much more useful for sorting.
Thoughts on the worst and Havo?

[Hopkirk]

I haven't read today yet as I've been busy today and yesterday. Will be able to read tomorrow

I'd probably say Una/Havo right now as of what I have read.

[Hopkirk]

@Tchill: could you explain your townread on Havo?
Haven't had a chance to do the reading there yet.

Not voting Una until I have,

[Hopkirk]

Havo isn't a very familiar player to me, so I can't sort them as easily as I feel like I can with you/N_M/Srceen.
I think Havo is the one with the most surprise-potential, but I don't see them as scum as of now..

Maybe I should just succumb to the pressure and we lynch him today, but I assume there's very little to no chance tomorrow isn't a MyLo though?
And I don't want to be alive tomorrow unless we lynch in Chill/Hop/Arc today.

I think this is a is is a perspecive slip.
I'll explain why when I'm not on my phone (definitely tonight).

[Hopkirk]

@Havo: just ran the stats on you. Based on three previous games, I got 33.8, 29.5, and 29.7. This game gave a 33.5.

On secondary metrics, I got (5.04/1.3), (5.09/1.34), (5.0/1.33) in prior games, and (5.06/1.31) in this one.

Plus doing this involved going through your iso again, which I liked.

Town on Havo.

[Hopkirk]

Reading up then going through (The Worst/Una) very closely.

[Hopkirk]

They make Havo town.

Not caught up yet

I frequently have a blindspot to people townreading me, but I don’t really like how The Worst is doing it.
There’s pretty objective problems with the claim- scum literally fakeclaimed the exact same thing in a game I had that just finished and it resulted in them being the unanimous/undoubted lynch choice (with Tchill/Havo).
Plus, why would you hammer without any discussion of kill choice if you strong townread me?

Screen kill was clearly mafia.

[Hopkirk]

It’s odd nobody’s actually asked why I chose to shoot at the worst (especially him).

Hop/The Worst and Hop/NM don’t make much sense.
Hop/Worst because hard townreading me as scumpartners would be an autolynch if I flipped scum and going into the day scum Hop/Worst would expect people to have issues with the claim.
Hop/NM because claiming a confirmable role and risking getting lynched when it doesn’t go through would mean I was betting the game on an easily mislynchable partner. Plus he was significant in causing a claim which would be bad there.

1 scum pro me and 1 against me makes good sense.

Not caught up yet (haven’t forgotten that slip either). Currently town is Tchill/Havo/Love with Arc/NM as likely town or possible UNA partners maybeish.

[Hopkirk]

Most to least likely

Una/Arc
Una/Worst
Una/Hop
Una/NM

Hop/Worst
Hop/NM

Love and havo are my TR's.

VOTE: hopkirk

if hop is town Una is scum (due to Una pushing hop) if hop is scum the worst is most likely the partner.

gives us a VERY good direction to go whether flipping town or scum. Of course i think he's scum.

Alternatively, Una is a good vote.
Or maybe the worst actually.

[Hopkirk]

'Of course i think he's scum.'
Not sure where the of course comes from since you were saying I was town before.
Tchill is still town.

[Hopkirk]

Havo isn't a very familiar player to me, so I can't sort them as easily as I feel like I can with you/N_M/Srceen.
I think Havo is the one with the most surprise-potential, but I don't see them as scum as of now..

Maybe I should just succumb to the pressure and we lynch him today, but I assume there's very little to no chance tomorrow isn't a MyLo though?
And I don't want to be alive tomorrow unless we lynch in Chill/Hop/Arc today.

I think this is a is is a perspecive slip.
I'll explain why when I'm not on my phone (definitely tonight).

Tchill/Hop are equally/more lynchable in mylo. Two conf.town flips doesn't change anything if you already buy the reads. If your top two townreads flipped town right now then you'd still scumread me/Tchill.
Presenting it as different seems like a perspective slip since the only change is that you should be more sure of your current thoughts, and more able to follow through on them.

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: Una

[Hopkirk]

Why not Una/The Worst?

[Hopkirk]

Doesn't really matter who we lynch as long as there's a Love/Havo/Tchill townblock thought tbh.

[Hopkirk]

assuming town has at least something other than me pr wise

[Hopkirk]

Hard defending before anyone attacks me is kind of eh. Setting the tone might have value, but it's auto-lose if people intend to attack me since TW was posting early today.

[Hopkirk]

It's directly refering to thing in early d2 (posting early today).

[Hopkirk]

plus it'd have been posted during the night if we were planning how Worst should do things, not halfway into the game day when he'd already done those things? What would we actually be discussing there if it was a slip?

[Hopkirk]

i never left my seat

[Hopkirk]

Other than us, who could the worst be scum with if anyone?

[Hopkirk]

I could see him with NM too actually.

[Hopkirk]

I thought he was town as of just before the lynch.
Then I reread and realized I had no reason to think that.

[Hopkirk]

I was/am waiting until Una reread TW before talking about him.
Plus I sleep regular hours.

[Hopkirk]

You forgot the part where you took a stance Una.

[Hopkirk]

Lynching me means we don't need to ring a pr up, decide not to lynch them when they claim, then move back to me, have me flip town, and have the pr claim they were roleblocked.
Lynching me also means we don't need to ring a wolf fakeclaim a pr up, decide not to lynch them when they claim, then move back to me, have me flip town, and have the pr fakeclaim fakeclaim they were roleblocked.

[Hopkirk]

@Havo: 'Screen was clearly the mafia kill' was in response to someone directly asking me 'do you think Screen was the mafia kill'.
957- Tied into the read I had on the worst.
I'm aware of the issues with the claim because we just finished a game where scum fakeclaimed it. Obviously there's even more wifom issues here if i say 'oh i wouldn't do that since Tchill/Havo didn't buy it before', but it's obviously a dumb move unless I'm going for that wifom, which I don't think is amazing wifom.
958- I haven't explained. I think it's interesting TW didn't care.
Lack of activity has been more d2 I think? Harder to notice this myself though.

1003 and @Tchill: The point here was that we don't just automatically believe any claims and default to voting me if/when they occur.

Scumpool is definitely (TW/Una/NM/Arc) in that order. Would be useful to get a townread on another one before the day ends.

[Hopkirk]

Nm could definitely be scum here annoyingly.

[Hopkirk]

I'm brining the thing up in the first place since I'm concerned TW was softclaiming a role

[Hopkirk]

2/5 die or get roleblocked tonight probably anyway?

[Hopkirk]

Wait, should we even lynch here?

[Hopkirk]

With 8 alive, more prs clearly in play, 2 scum almost certain, and very conflicted reads (making a kill useful).
Although my scumpool probably doesn't get shot at now so idk.

[Hopkirk]

Was just looking at number alive and thinking 'should we massclaim' when I realized, 'should we even lynch'.

Literally anyone dying is kind of good here though since virtually anyone is either a possible lynch now, or a possible lynch in lylo (since people's reads seem very uncoordinated)

[Hopkirk]

Better for prs too to do the no lynch now probably.

[Hopkirk]

UNVOTE: Una

[Hopkirk]

Does 7v3 ever even happen? That just sounds crazy. That's like 85% scum win rate, and we've had 2 VTs flip so far and we've either had one pr claimed and a scum RB, or no prs claimed.
Plus if it was 7v3 then today would be 5v3 and it'd be mylo right now, or lylo tomorrow if we no lynched.

[Hopkirk]

7/3 is unlikely, and there'd be even more reason to no lynch if it was 7/3.

[Hopkirk]

We have one mislynch.

[Hopkirk]

That's @Tchill really. You have 5 players you are considering lynching. Rushing isn't a good idea.

[Hopkirk]

Hop what do you think about the clear from your lack of claiming the screen kill?

Sure, it makes me 100% town.
What do you want me to say?

[Hopkirk]

Why is sarcasm bad Tchill

[Hopkirk]

Ok, then 5 people when you count NM+any of the other 4 then Tchill?

[Hopkirk]

Eh, discussion of who is a likley night kill or lot harms the value of no lynching. Might not be good now today/

[Hopkirk]

Leaning towards voting you NM. Thoughts?

[Hopkirk]

If he refuses to claim I'm happy to/with a hammer.

[Hopkirk]

I guess my algorithm was too powerful to control.