Mini Normal 2002: The Thaw OVERRRRRRRRR

[MagnaofIllusion]

Guys it’s an RC alt not a Titus alt – only RC would sign up for a game with me (again) as a hidden alt and proceed to type 14. I think Titus doesn’t have the level of ego chest-pounding as RC does when it comes to secretly playing in a game I’m in.

So if it comes down to just on who I want to play with in the Hoopla / Erika debate I obviously choose Hoopla without a second thought.

VOTE: Erika

Cheetory

– Hey I am very interested to see you in a game without Spiffeh for once … this way I get the full, unadulterated Cheetory experience.

--

And btw I agree MoI wasn't all that great, I had him pretty locked until Spiffeh decided to unleash the blowback

I mean you totally had me locked and on the ropes with that L-1 wagon and thank god Spiffeh bailed me out ... oh wait

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'll PM Spiff so he knows to replace in and ruin the experience for you (;

Hey don’t be that way Cheet ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

I regret joining this game.

Why? I mean Grey isn’t even here yet so the yelling volume is way low.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Look ma, no yelling.

Well, if you're cool. You are cool, right MOI?

Vote:Flavor Leaf

It's what the cool kids do.

Sure I’ll join the wagon. It’s Boon so there is going to be entertainment value there.

VOTE: Flavor

But talk to me about Saudade Grey … can I interest you

in grinding his Red role PM to a find powder through relentless pressure

voting there perhaps? I mean ... the whole "Oops wrong thread" play is so cheeky scum.

Also to loosely steal from the Simpsons – “But the yelling Grey … you can’t get rid of the yelling!”

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OK now I feel like you're insecure, like do you have to devalue everything I do right?

Very interesting reaction Gamma – you’ve just gotten done devaluing my play in Thing Mafia and when I give a rather friendly jab back you respond with this. How is that at all “devaluing everything you do”?

--

I've no idea in the slightest.

Double check your role PM – generally your scum-buddies are listed there ….

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Saudade is pretty town already though.

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Just putting it out there, Saudade’s the first player in a long while to completely shrek me with their scum game. Don’t sleep on him.

So what lessons did you learn from getting, um, shreked?

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Hoopla's reaction in 41 also seems like posturing.

Have you ever played with Hoopla or read any games of hers?

[MagnaofIllusion]

just do it why would a town player self vote ever in his life

Yeah Grey ... this is a live one ...

Come on Mason partner let's do this!!!!

[MagnaofIllusion]

a question toward me

I don't think 51 is likely how scum enters the game after the first couple pages.

55/57 are also pretty good. Doesn't feel like an especially likely thing for scum to want to fake.

Read his completed scum win game and get back to me again ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

Got to hit the road ...

VOTE: Saud

Grey we can talk about this but I can't leave him without a vote.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Phone post so now beautiful quoting for you all.

Implosion - don’t be a slug take 10 minutes and read Saud’s ISO from that completed game. Cheeky and also blatantly anti-Town posts are well within the range of his scum game. And posts like 171 are straight out of the “lost and confuse newb” strategy he employed in his scum win. He’s clearly more capable than he presents as that game demonstrated.

I also disagree with 142 - I’ve seen Boon pull these exact moves as Town and he believes in his approach regardless of how many people tell him it is bad.

Grey - please translate 115 here or in the Mason PT cause you lost me.

Cult- Hoopla is a very skilled player and all her early game posts are well within her range as both Town or scum. So scum reading that is a big miss in my book.

Cheetory - I remind you of Biochem not Defcon4?

Stephan - you seriously are suggesting Erika’s early game posting was a Trap?

[MagnaofIllusion]

The thing about that I find most puzzlesome is that you think I’m really pushing to any significant degree. This is me being really laid back.

[MagnaofIllusion]

The she’s way off base - this game is way different than Biochem. Of course feel free to judge for yourself it is in the Completed Large area.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Yeah I don’t know what to tell you Cheet ... if you are expecting tons of frothing invectives and yelling for people’s necks you are always going to be disappointed with my play. That chapter of MoI is done.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I can tell this is not a Geriatric game. Grey if you hadn’t been signed up for this I never would have joined.

I’m starting to waiver on thinking Saud is scum playing the same game as his last. I mean at one point I was sitting down to make Cheetory (and everyone else) a side by side of comparison of quotes from here and Day 1 from the other game so show everyone exactly why his posting strikes me as his scum game there. But it is possible that he just plays similarly (but with better writing) to Firebringer … someone who plays the Town-game in a way that isn’t really helpful to Town but gives them built in excuses for why they are scum read when scum. I mean how can you not read 235 and think “Wow that’s levels of tone-deaf”. But maybe that’s how Saud wants to roll.

So that got me thinking about the players who have been hard Town reading Saud. I’m not including Flavor because … its Boon his reads flip around like a flag in the breeze. I mean Implosion and Erika.

Implosion has been bending over backwards giving every post Saud makes the absolute benefit of the doubt leading to a Town read. I mean look at 288 – he is either just unwilling to admit the things he thinks are Towntells existed all through that scum game of Saud’s or he’s scum who has overshot reasonable justification on that Town read on a player he already knows is scum.

Erika’s read on the other hand is empty and based mostly on a scum read on myself. That’s an easy position to take for scum in that the minute I turn up Town it can be revoked with a “Oh, I was misreading MoI maybe he was on to something with Saud” as the game dictates.

So Saud Town means to my mind at least one of these two is scum looking to have a helpful Town in their back pocket.

@Grey

– Say my gut instinct on Saud is wrong and he’s Firebringer-style Town. Which of the two above would you think is mostly likely to be scum?

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I have no idea what the relevance of what you're saying here is. What does my early scumlean on Hoopla have to do with her being good at scum? Wouldn't it only make sense to say this to me if I was gut townreading Hoopla?

It means your read is terrible and you have no clue how to read Hoopla if you think that early game material is scum-lean worthy. My limited experience with you prior to this says you aren’t terrible. So I’m left in a quandary.

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I'm not fosing MoI for being quiet I'm FOSing MoI for being scummy.

Look … just repeating empty phrases over and over (“not scum-hunting”, “scummy”) like a poor Appeal to Repetition bot isn’t going to get the job done.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I’m town reading Implosion for his explanation on why he’s town reading Saudade.

See Flavor it is stuff like this that makes me want to say "Yeah, just sheep Grey and sort other reads in the Mason QT overnight based on his flip."

[MagnaofIllusion]

Lets start with Cult:
You criticise her for scumreading Hoopla, yet your own claimed masonpartner (yes I know you can't choose them) has stated that he tends to do the same.
Now we both know that Grey is not terrible, so why if Hoopla is a difficult to read player in early game, is the read of Cult so terrible that it is nothworthy?

Erica: I get that she scumreads you. I get that you scumread her. (That happens quite a bit) But why is it so unormal to townread players your scumread is scumreading?

Well first I don't think there is quite an equivalency - Grey said he always wants to lynch her not that he always thinks she's scum. Slight difference between policy stance for disliking her playstyle (while he acknowledges she's a good shot at Town) versus actively scum-reading Hoopla. That aside Cult was singled out because I think he stands a fairly good shot at being Town despite his incorrect read on me and once my card gets flipped I want him to take that grain of information into his analysis of Hoopla.

And what you suggest re: Townreading a scum-read's Scum reads later on in the game when flips have happened and more info is available. Erika did it by what, page 8? She clearly went to the trouble to look up the game I'm referring to (and knocked someone else for not doing it). Note she isn't disputing anything I say about parallels between games - just that he's Town because I'm suspecting him. And FMPOV I know she's incorrect and the limited way she is reading him pretty much on my suspicion strikes me as manufactured as opposed to organic.

Did you go read the game in question? I'm curious.

[MagnaofIllusion]

But I don't take them at facevalue, because Flavor is obvious messing with us, and if he was scum, to do it per acident would be quite an acomplishment.
I give you that there is probably enough to lynch him 10 times, but it just to much, why does Flavor play like he does as scum?

You do know that he's in this very game admitted to he does those things as both alignments and pretty much everyone who knows him agrees, right?

And I don't know the point you should take a Flavor claim at face value. Maybe when he gets to L-1 with multiple people stating he intends to hammer.

[MagnaofIllusion]

As an example of Implosion bending over backwards to clear Saud btw I give you this –

WRT his wagon it's sort of the same thing, he's being kind of unnecessarily antagonistic. It's more direct than I'd expect scum to take as a tact here. Idk. It just doesn't feel right as the scum angle. I'd expect him as scum to be a bit more wishy-washy about the people on his wagon, or I'd expect him to be happy to join the MoI wagon. The way he's reacting to the wagon as a whole feels genuine. There are just a lot of little things that I don't think are what he'd do as scum.

Let’s look at the elements that he is using to credit Saud as Town.

1. He’s more antagonistic against those voting him than scum should be? Um, no that purely a function of personality than alignment – some people are always going to be more aggressive against attackers while some are going to be downright passive.

2. He’d expect scum Saud to be more wishy-washy about the people on his wagon. I’d argue that is exactly what his is doing. For reference Saud posted this –

MagnaOfIllusion(11), Gamma Emerald(41), Hoopla(15)
post which line made you think that im mafia with a decent enough thought process or get spanked tbh

Of the three of us only one (Gamma) bothered to even respond. This led to Gamma and Saud’s lovely back and forth starting at 296. Hoopla and I didn’t bother and Saud never said two peeps about it despite the fact that he’s made it clear more than once he thinks scum jumped on him. And he never voted either any of the three of us after this - just basically vote parks Flavor. My takeaway is that he’s being very wishy-washy against those on his wagon … blowing a bunch of hot air with no followup beyond a name-calling session with Gamma.

3. Implosion would expect him to be happy to join the MoI wagon as scum.

Um …what? Let’s parse this because it makes zero sense from the perspective Implosion is trying to present. Look at the situation.

Implosion is implicitly saying he’s Town in his posts. Next he’s voting me at this stage so he is presenting that he thinks I am scum. Yet he’s giving Saud Town points for being hesitant to vote me. Why in god’s green earth would Saud get Town points for being hesitant to vote a person he thinks is quite possibly scum who jumped on his wagon? Does that make sense? If anything I’d expect Town Implosion who thinks I am scum to wonder why Saud didn’t jump on the wagon not give him Town points.

Now on the flip-side – I can certainly see Scum Implosion who knows myself and Saud are both Town to make the mistake of trying to giving Saud Town credit for not jumping on a growing MoI Town wagon despite me being under fire. That absolutely makes sense.

In fact at this stage since Grey hasn’t chimed in I’m moving my vote because it seems pretty clear to me as I typed this that Implosion is quite possibly scum trying to pocket Town Saud.

VOTE: Implosion

[MagnaofIllusion]

eeeeeeeeh ya know what fuck it I'm just going to heavily adovcate for lynching MoI if he is still alive the day before LyLo and ignore the slot till I can actually get in a headspace to gamesolve.
{Gamma, Saudade, Implosion, Cheetory, CoA}
{Stefan, GreyICE, Flavor Leaf} - with the caveot that I am literally 100% ok with Flavor Leaf dieing because Boon, Gamma, and Saudade literally make me want to replace out and Boon's playstyle is like, always terrible}
{Hiraki}
{Hoopla, Prism, MoI}

Actually
now that I think about it.
I like this
VOTE: Prism
idunno I think they would have more stances then Gamma is town and I feel like this could easily be the coasting lurking deepwolf here.

And how and the hell has this not drawn more questions than the softball Stephan threw his way earlier? Let's look at what Erika is doing here -

1. Abdicating the ability to read me or interact with me until right before LYLO.
2. Voting Prism who literally has a single post over Hoopla who Erika made an early "Case" against as scum. I challenge anyone with a straight fact to say that Prism is a more reasonable vote from Erika than Hoopla (or myself, but more on that in a bit).
3. Berating the ability of Boon / Gamma / Saud while simultaneously having 2 of those three in her Top Town tier and one in a tier that is at worst Null-Town. That smells like setting the stage to later vote them under the guise of a change in read / policy when the chance arises.

Frankly the whole 4 post sequence where Erika has backpedalled on me (oh, I'm terrible at this game I guess but MoI is soooo scummy, I'll just ignore him til near LYLO) stinks of scum who thought they had a nice ego inflating sure thing mislynch-wagon on me and saw the change in the wind and thought "Oh shit ... need to abort this ASAP".

If I didn't have a strong reason to vote Implosion you know sure as hell my vote would be here.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So perhabs my question should be: Why is Flavor playing like he does? If someone has a scum-motivation good.

I wish I could answer this ... frankly that sorta loosey goosey more interest in having fun than playing the game style is not something I can connect with at all. Part of why I'm limiting my games to mostly Geriatric games is the fact that many players like this are part of the site norm now.

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: Flavor Leaf
this should be our lynch for the day to be honest

I unvoted Flavor to see where things would lead.
this lead to Flavor unvoting me and voting someone else which begs the quesiton of why did he vote me in the first place only to claim I am his strongest townread later on
I just see his play filled with inconsistancy and that's about it.

and I dont recall wanting to read into implosion pretty sure I townread him because I could relate to his reads

Unvote

VOTE: Flavor Leaf

????
explain

So let me get this straight. You vote Flavor. You say "Implosion has reads you can relate to". Implosion votes the player you are and your reaction is "?????, explain". All in the span of 9 posts.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Grey I really need to you get in here and give me some insight because I am going nuts watching this. I don't think Saud and Implosion / Erika are all partners. But I am having a hard as hell time deciding which side is more scummy.

HALP!!!!!

[MagnaofIllusion]

So much to parse and not a ton of time tonight I’ll get through what I can –

False. My vote on you was mostly a placeholder/blindly wagoning. I don't have a good read on you yet. I was vaguely hoping to see how you'd react directly to my vote on you, but then you disappeared for that day and I got tired of waiting. And now you're making a hell of a lot of assumptions about my vote; you're assuming that it was because of an explicit scumread on you, you're assuming that I wanted the wagon to keep growing, and you're assuming that I should be exonerating every vote on the wagon just because I was on it? That is such an un-nuanced way of looking at things.

Well here’s a doozy I want to dig into … so your vote was a reaction test that failed miserably and now you are upset I’m making assumptions? Well Mafia is a game of assumtions. You’re making them all over the place about Saud (which I’ve pointed out) and are comfortable with them. If you don’t provide reasons with your vote at the point we are in the game I’m going to make what I feel are reasonable assumptions – that you moved away from the person you claim to be scum-reading to vote me therefore I must be at least as much of a scum read as Flavor to you.

Because I think you should know me at least well enough to know I’m not going to bother poking you about blind vote regardless of my alignment. I’ll take note of it. But that’s an absolute waste of a tactic if you happen to be Town.

So you were happy to place a bandwagon vote / completely useless reaction test on an effective Null read simply because it looked like my wagon was picking up momentum as opposed to keeping a vote on your claimed scum suspect in Flavor? Because that’s my takeaway.

is really one-dimensional. Sure, I might not give saud-scum townpoints for avoiding jumping on a wagon on you if I'm completely sold that you're scum... but even if I have a scumread on you, I'm not going to assume that you're scum when I evaluate Saudade's actions. my day one reads are crap like half the time. I don't see why you think I should be looking at Saudade's actions through the lens of my read on you. It could function as evidence that you're scum together but d1 associatives are crap.

Umm whut? You are giving him a solid Town read on his refusal to jump on a bandwagon on me. And are not to going to assume my alignment in doing so? How in the heck do you given him Town credit at all when you aren’t assuming that I’m scum in your analysis? That boggles my mind that you are trying to give him solid Town motivation in not voting me – one of his supposed scum suspect on his wagon – when you aren’t considering my alignment at all in that analysis.

The problem is that I'm pretty sure this isn't a tell for MoI and I have no idea how to actually read him, and the push even feels vaguely reminiscent of the last game I played with MoI where we were both town and suspected each other. Which is why I can understand why erika wants to just lynch him the day before lylo if he's still alive.

And why I don't really understand why he's critical of erika for claiming inability to read him.

I just don't know how to interpret any of this with regards to his alignment

Yeah the bolded is a misrep. Erika’s move was scummy not because she can’t “read me” … it is scummy because she’s spent all of today calling for my head (and even in her departing post still called me scum) yet bailed on pushing that read to say “Nah, just going to lynch him before LYLO”. It shows survivalism in that devoting any more energy to it can potentially backfire large him her (or more precisely her successors face since she bailed) and perhaps even get her lynched. Town doesn’t lose any more credibility if they go down swinging going after a solid scum read.

[MagnaofIllusion]

In what way? Is this some RaidantCowbells-style "You wouldn't be able to catch me from these posts if I were scum"? Please, explain instead of just calling my read terrible. It doesn't seem unreasonable to me at all to look at what I quoted just above and see scum there.

I’m calling it terrible because from my point of view it is. You seem to be saying that Hoopla’s posts have scum motivation because she’s basically looking to policy lynch on two players. And that is a dog that doesn’t hunt. If Hoopla is scum she’s got partners who are going to help her push whatever agenda she has. She’s not going to waste what could be a more productive mislynch (there are multiple better mislynch Day 1 targets in the game and enough that they can’t all be her partners) on pushing effective policy lynches. So I’m saying your analysis to borrow someone else’s phrase surface level.

I don’t even care if you want to believe me now or not. But my eventual flip (and it is coming sooner rather than later – the number of games I live past Day 2 in a Mini as Town are probably less than 10) will show you this is an honest perspective that I want you to take into account down the line if you are Town.

--

I think you might be overstating how bad this game is?
Like, unless you've been super spoiled by geriatic games. Overall this is pretty straightforward/lean in terms of current site standards?
[And I know you can handle worse climates than this given how often you've played large themes, so this seems a little out of place tbh]

You do understand that the current site meta is the reason that I pretty much only play under the Geriatric rule-set, correct? Because while this game may be lean there is still enough posting that keeping up with the limited computer time I have to devote to it is somewhat of a challenge. And I feel handcuffed in phone posting.

I think it's reasonable for implosion to read this as town [and I think it's something he could read as town as town?]

Yeah I think Implosion’s analysis is junk – so yeah we aren’t seeing eye to eye.

I could easily see myself getting distracted from productive questioning by a fight as town. I think it's generally kind of normal for that kind of stuff to happen?

I’d ask you to look at Saud’s ISO and tell me where you see the scum-hunting. I don’t see any. I see a ton of active lurking. Who are his scum reads besides Flavor? Who knows. Frankly I think you've decided I'm scum and just are making arguments predicated on that position at this stage. Because Saud isn't getting distracted defusing or analyzing arguments. He's busy posting gems like 425.

I'm kind of struggling to understand why you think this would be white-knighting for the purpose of pocketing Saudade, rather than white-knighting for the purposes of generating content? Do you think implosion would look at Saudade and think "hey this is who I should want to be pocketing here right now!" because I can't really imagine that happening and I don't really understand why you think he would think that would be valuable. [Or at least I just don't really think the reasons you're putting forward are realistic]

Point 1 – what the hell is “white-knighting for content”? No idea what that even means.

Point 2 – the purpose of pocketing a player serves a dual purpose for scum – to have a mini Appeal to Authority on their flip if it happens (“See, I was correct in reading Player Z as Town”) and also to have someone who might be to help you win the game down the line (“I’m voting MoI because he called me scum and Implosion called me Town”). If you don’t think that’s something reasonable for scum to do we also fundamentally disagree on behaviors scum undertake.

As to whether it is reasonable for scum Implosion to look to be pocketing Saud – there aren’t many players in this game that look like good choices for pocketing that early on. Certainly not the back-side of the players list. And with Prism and Hiraki’s slots MIA in that period it pretty much leaves Flavor and Saud as the early players getting suspicion that Implosion-scum could choose to execute this sort of play with.

Can you point me to where the wagon on you was discredited to a degree that would make Erika this self-conscious about their push on you?

Do you want an actual post? Because if that is the case it isn’t happening. It is a feeling I have reading the flow of the game. My wagon didn’t take off. Erika pushed me with Appeal to Repetition over and over and couldn’t get much in the way of momentum. Granted I'm biased but it would certainly not be the first time I've seen scum backpedal after realizing they'e bitten off more than they can chew with me Day 1.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Vote: StephanB

Grey do I need to go to Mason Divorce court? Because yeah I just have no idea what is going through your head right now. Who is scum? Because you've spent a bunch of time talking about how I might be onto something with Saud and lord knows I have yet to see any sort of good argument that he's Town.

Yeah - anything Tone related is junk that is NEVER, EVER going to sell me that Saud's ISO is Town. Maybe it is but if so he's terrible Firebringer style town in which case he's probably just as good a Day 1 policy as Flavor.

If you want to give me something to chew on with Stephan great but I'm certainly not jumping away from where my head is at to join Naked Vote 2018 even if it is you.

[MagnaofIllusion]

And no-one is unlynchable. I have seen MoI vig-shot on day 1 when he was scum before. So if he is scum we can get him.

Link me that because hell if I remember that game.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'm just straight up wrong and biased and need to move to something else.

Getting food and then I'll dust myself off and try and tackle reading MoI/Imp. Might as well buy some french fries to go with all of my salt.

How about providing us with some reads because that whole last post was basically "Defend defend oh I screwed up and all my prior work is trashed due to bad data". You've had enough time to dig into the game and give us something and not just taking sides on Implosion / MoI.

[MagnaofIllusion]

BTW the above vote count should be a pretty good signal that Flavor is likely Town not scum. If you want a policy lynch go for it but odds that is a scum lynch at the same time are slim.

[MagnaofIllusion]

The large number if Singleton vanity votes. Since Flavor has been the leading wagon there really has only been one even middling counter wagon attempt - me. Scum have made no significant effort to find another lynch. If Flavor was scum and he’s being bussed there would be a stronger effort to get the Bus pushed through for Town cred. Instead we get neither and a weak wagon with a large number of people sitting on solo off votes waiting for momentum to end Flavor.

Willing to bet at least one of the solo votes is scum.

[MagnaofIllusion]

The voters - Grey, Erika slot , Cult, Prism

[MagnaofIllusion]

To be fair anyone who is really worried about Hoopla today consider Burden of Proficency. Realistically Hoopla (and Grey and Cheet) are all in the same boat as me. As someone with long histories of quality play on site we can’t be left alive long term by scum as Town. Certainly any of the four of us kicking around near LYLO is a danger sign. Keep that in the back of your head if you are Town.

Erika would be my pick in those voters as most likely scum as it stands. Really have already said my piece on that issue.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'm just straight up wrong and biased and need to move to something else.

Getting food and then I'll dust myself off and try and tackle reading MoI/Imp. Might as well buy some french fries to go with all of my salt.

How about providing us with some reads because that whole last post was basically "Defend defend oh I screwed up and all my prior work is trashed due to bad data". You've had enough time to dig into the game and give us something and not just taking sides on Implosion / MoI.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Stefan if both scum were bussing scumFlavor we wouldn’t have the listless wagon we do. No one is pushing it on much more than policy. Which nets no one on the wagon any credit. Which is the entire purpose of bussing.

As it stands we have a wagon that is basically people saying “Meh” and just going with the flow.

As to why the two person wagon is different - it is only to the extent that it threatens to provide an alternative to Flavor. But for darn sure all those solo votes are not doing that.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'm pretty sure there has never been a statement "one of these four players is scum" that has been worth a damn. I mean just naked, random.org has a 71% chance of generating a list of 4 names that contains at least 1 scum.

But Magna, much more important question. Why is StephanB not on your list of "lonely voters"? If your theory is that scum are just sitting back and letting the Flavor Leaf lynch happen, well certainly a person who is LITERALLY NOT VOTING is doing nothing but that. And yet he misses your list.

Consider the masonry dissolved.

Actually he should be. Phone posting isn’t my forte and I missed the not voting section. So it is really 5 names and I’m more confident it is more than 1 at this point.

So rather than give me reasons you just pull the plug? Ok have it your way.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I really don't want to make an enemy out of MoI, because the last time we played together he tunneled me and I tunneled him back and we were both town.

Link this game please.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Quick phone post to say life is super busy and will try to post substantially tonight.

UNVOTE: Implosion

I was thinking he was referencing a different game. On review yeah this may indeed be just a play style approach issue and given that was a good portion of my scummy feelings on Implosion I’m going to pull back and reevaluate.

Grey I’ll read your post tonight in depth.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So having mulled it over some more I’m going to let my Implosion read be in Null right now. Still some things I want to re-look over when I have more time.

My read on the Erika slot hasn’t changed. The backtrack and handling of having almost overwhelming suspicion of me yet abdicating any need to act on it FMPOV smells rotten. And no amount of “replacement halo” is likely to change my gut. If you have questions about that ask.

And everyone needs to not be overlooking Saud who has basically active-lurked out after several people gave him strong Town reads for being … him I guess. Nothing in that ISO says Town to me (yeah - pre-emptive I don’t give two craps about Tone reading … it is a highly overrated Mafia skill IMO).

Cult has moved into Null for me … too little content this stage to continue giving him a Town read.

Prism I still want to see more from outside of jousting with Cheet. I understand you are scum reading Cheet and Implosion and Town reading Gamma. Any other reads outside of those Prism would be very helpful.

--

I'd probably vote Erika at this point, but I'll wait for the replacement

Don’ tease me like this Hoopla … not nice.

--

Two, and more importantly, like I said it doesn't remind me of town magna in a way that I think Magna can't fake. All of my townreads have done things that I think they're unlikely to fake as scum. Honestly thinking about it in this light is making me lean slightly town on him, but it's similar to my townlean on Grey in that he's certainly capable of faking what he's done so far, it's just somewhat more likely to come from town. But like, it's a mixed bag? I'm pretty sure Magna uses the same kind of logic as scum, i.e. that these things aren't tells for him. It might be that he only does these things as town but that would be pretty one-dimensional of a meta to have for an established player.

Honest question Implosion – aside from really weak players are there any players who can’t fake things they do as Town as scum?

--

(I'm actually really sad MOI didn't pick up on any of this, this is normally his jam)

I've been watching StephanB since this post. It's a lame entry, but worse than that is the apology. Like he read the medium-length post, realized it was a lame entry to the thread, didn't really want to post more, but felt guilty over that. That's not a behavior I associate with town. It's not a perfect scumtell (bad news, those don't exist) but it makes me notice a person. Now what really started to get to me was this:

I get what you are saying here if you are off-hand referencing the Buffy game where I rang up your Newb partner on his first post of the game and then after I pushed through his lynch and then lynched SK whats-his-bucket you and Camn killed me off and led the rest of the Town around like lost puppies.

VOTE: StefanB

I’ll sheep you for the moment as I get re-engaged since there are no Erika votes to help build into a wagon. Also because to some degree Stefan has pussy-footed around both Hoopla and I without really committing til this last page. But I do have a question –

Do you think Prism’s entry without the need to excuse a singular Gamma Town read and the general positivitiy is a sign of Town from them?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Speaking of, this is starting to remind me of Divided Germany in more ways than one, you're not being hyper-cheeky with the Buffy reference, are you?

Well I have zero memory about any game called Divided Germany so ... no. There are games that stick with you but apparently that wasn't one of them. Link me if there is a conclusion I should be drawing.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So as much fun as reading this exchange between Grey and Flavor has been (hint .. it hasn’t) at least we got some Grey yelling out of the exchange so that’s a plus.

I will say that my “Flavor is Town via Vote-Count” did not consider a possibility that Flavor-scum either has daytalk and was assuring his teammates that he’s get off fine or that his partners know him well enough to understand how hard he is to lynch (supposedly since I haven’t ever had reason to try in our limited exposure to each other). So that Town clear is no longer strong in my mind.

Flavor

– frankly I don’t care how often you toot your own horn about yourself. I want some reasoning behind your Hoopla as scum stance before I can post again. Yeah, totally don’t care if it isn’t how you play.

Saud continues to active lurk and I wish I wish I was a Vig this game because then I could solve that problem overnight single-handedly. I mean look at 633. You would think a Town player would springboard off that to say “Hmmm .. what scum buddies saved my scum read Flavor”. But nope … he just whines.

--

I actually think MOI might have a point here and find it strange he isn't pushing it more

It’s really hard to push a slot that really doesn’t currently exist in the game-state Gamma. I mean I can talk about my thoughts over and over but there is no response to help others get on board with my read currently. Hiraki’s post right after this explains why it is a fools errand until a body gets in that slot.

That’s what she said

….

--

If we have a lye awasome.
But I will try to find out what Grey is refering, too, tomorrow, good night.

This statement is why my vote is staying where it is BTW (well, on top of all the “who is scum on my wagon … they all look so Town … maybe I should have keep my sneaky trap primed and caught scum piling on me … oh well” posting).

--

My current reads are that this day needs to end and I'm fine with both of the leading wagons.

Unvote

Vote: Hoopla

Oh look that non-existent counter-wagon just picked up a lurker out of nowhere ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

Hey Cults at L-1 in like 12 hours.

So instead of LoL hammering I’m going to give him a chance to claim.

Clock is ticking Cult ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: Cult

:shrug:

lol. how can you not be okay with the stefan wagon based on composition but be fine with this?

This is actually a great question that Flavor should, you know, answer.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I don’t like this composition really, but I didn’t like Cult’s vote and made me uneasy about the Hoopla wagon.

This is the epitome of a compromise wagon. But I think it’s telling

VOTE: Flavor

ISO Flavor and do a search for Cult. Notice how there is a complete lack of mentioning Cult in any capacity until this vote.

Then decide - does it really make sense that Flavor is "bothered" by Cult's vote when he has expressed zero worry about him previous and said vote is on Hoopla who is supposedly one of Flavor's top scum reads?

Nah, don't think so.

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: Cult

You had to your chance. There is no "Maybe I'll get around to claiming Sunday" when two people have already expressed interest in hammering.

Insert DGB quote here.

Oh right, like 90%

Vote: Cult

Now this is the second time you've been called me scum and just left it there limply. Town Grey was never quiet about calling for my head Day 1 when he thought I was scum (and was wrong pretty much every time ... Survivors don't count). Yeah if we both are alive tomorrow we will settle this as I can't ignore the gut scum-read I've been keeping to myself on you.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I actually don't know if I'd like MoI's post more if it was overtly concerned with Grey in relation to CoA's flip so I take that last part of 837 back. I just don't think I like MoI in general.

Cheet is likely town, Gamma probably is too, Grey/MoI/Implosion probably aren't all scum but all need to go. Hoopla in general isn't great and I think has been hypocritical at times but my gut says they're town (tonal, but recognize is likely playstyle). If I had to place a hardbet I'd go on Flavor+Stefan town and probably Hiraki. Erika/Saudade probably hold last by default.

What Cult flips at this stage will give me pretty good input onto other players. Just because you don't get my process doesn't mean it doesn't exist. And tip - my gut Grey read is just that ... gut. I expect Town Grey who really thinks I'm scum to want my head for a trophy Day 1 to say "Haha I got Scum MoI". But I expect scum Grey to not have bothered with the shade throwing as he tends to just purely buddy me or not interact (Buffy Mafia, Defcon 4). In fact his whole Mason schtick was what set my radar early but I played along to see how long he'd go with it. He's playing in a zone between expectations and that means I need more to make a call.

Why do you hammer here, MoI?

Speaking of not reading - I made it clear exactly why I hammered. Cult showed keen awareness that he was under L-1 pressure with all his commentary on the votes on him. Town Cult

SHOULD

have claimed to shut down the wagon if he had a PR. So either he's a VT or he's scum who is dragging out the process to make sure we scramble at the last minute when he gets back Sunday with a claim and little time to act on it.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Well this opened I see.

I fully expected to see a vote for me from Grey the moment the Day opened. So color me unsurprised to have my prediction granted. Yes, I was sure he was going to survive the Night. Because 873 looks to me like foreknowledge of the result. I was certainly not sure that Cult was scum but his play absolutely demanded that hammer. It absolutely is within Grey’s scum game to sell out a weak partner for Town cred. I can link everyone to that old Buffy game I referenced earlier.

Grey

– I am ready and willing to 1v1 you today if you’d like. With a Day 1 scum lynch I think there is room to prove your scum read on me is manufactured even if it takes me being lynched as long as the rest of the Town sends you down the line right afterwards.

--

Hoopla and Stephan are both solid Town reads in my book. Hoopla based solidly on the strength of the pushback I got from Cult on not scum reading Hoopla for what he claimed he was Day 1. That isn’t bus / distancing behavior. I can elaborate when I have more computer time if necessary.

Stephan is Town for his play post hammer. Specifically starting at 836. Way too much doubt about the hammer and expression of unease with it to come from a partner that I found very credible. That Grey also still has him as a scum suspect is also a demerit to Grey.

Prism I think is more likely Town than not based on how strongly Grey is trying to buddy him. Yes, that’s a relational read but as it stands I’m comfortable with it.

--

The only other vote I’ll consider at this juncture is Piplup. Erika’s play before replacing in disgrace was still very scum oriented and Piplup’s opening today is does nothing to change my stance on him.

I’ll be voting one of Grey or Piplup in my next post once Grey responds to my 1v1 offer.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Doing some phone posting today as I have time. Took a solid look at Cults ISO again.

I’m not sure that he a great partner candidate. There was some early undercutting attempts by Cult in regards to his focus on Flavor. And I see signs that signal to me that Cult did not want to push Saud as scum but was not going to call him Town leaving Cult pivot room for future days.

I also really want to rethink Pip after that read. I feel like there was way to much interaction between Erika and Cult for them to be partners. So a dedicated reread of Erika is in order.

Still feel comfortable with Gamma as Town based on that ISO.

Flavor does look like a viable partner - there were indications of early soft defense of Flavor and I agree that late vote could certainly be poor distancing.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Grey – I am ready and willing to 1v1 you today if you’d like. With a Day 1 scum lynch I think there is room to prove your scum read on me is manufactured even if it takes me being lynched as long as the rest of the Town sends you down the line right afterwards.

So, to be clear here. You think that Grey spearheaded the lynch on one of his partners when there were other options? To, what end?

I think it’s possible and reasonable for Scum Grey to do it. Hell I’ve seen it in action first hand.

Not sure why the “to what end” question given the answer is Town cred and getting rid of a boat anchor slot. That’s Mafia basics - you claim to be experienced elsewhere so just asking the question puzzles me.

Do you disagree that Grey is widely Townread today in part thanks to that flip?

[MagnaofIllusion]

If I were at a computer I’d point out for everyone to see how those interactions are not partners. But phone posting means I’ll put it succinctly - this reaction is over the top and stretching to justify the vote.

Happy to do this with you Grey.

VOTE: Grey

[MagnaofIllusion]

Have fun doing that MOI. I'll be here, long after you're gone.

Well, probably just about one night phase, but c'est la vie.

Yup scum grandstanding. If you were Town you’d have been targeted for death last Night after “leading” a Cult scum lynch. Surprised you chose Cheery over Hoopla but I guess you figured you have Hoopla pocketed enough and had already set the stage for your mislynch push on me.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MoI: When will you be on the computer again? Because I have look at both ISOs and I don't see anythink that can't be partners, exspecially if they have daytalk. (that is allways posible)

I will probably get some time tonight around 8 - 9.

Also since the rules don’t specify Daytalk scum would have to have an Encypter for Daytalk. And I am pretty sure they have a blocking role also. So in future days keep that in mind when assessing balance when claiming occurs.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Yes of course. But I think you know I would say that even if I was scum so hardly worth even asking, right?

You have made your stance clear Grey. I’m happy to make this 1v1 today even if I lose.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Stefan

- these are how I'm making my read on Piplup and CoA not being aligned.

CoA and Implo are my locktowns
GreyICE is likely town too
Gamma is likely town too but waffle
Saudade is probs town
Hoopla and Keely give me headaches
Boon can get pl'd honestly its a good pl. Its either scum or does stupid shit like this.
VOTE: MoI

and um I think everyone else is irrelevant.

Can you explain your GreyICE read? I haven't really understood a lot of what he's been saying and I'm not really familiar with him as a player.

Hoopla and Keely give me headaches

Who is Keely?

Actually lets make my life easier.
If any one of CoA, Implo, and GreyICE has a read on {Hoopla or Cheetory} that can be explained with words please educate me, I will likely sheep right now if it sounds good.
Preferibly all 3 would be nice.

I'm gut scumreading Hoopla but apparently there's meta there that I don't know, waiting to hear from MoI on that. I prefer MoI as a wagon anyways.

In both of these posts CoA is interacting with Erika in a way to discuss reads and share information. I don't disagree that there isn't much substance here ... hell there isn't much substance to CoA's entire ISO. But it is in the nature of these interactions I don't see partner play. These are both very early on in the game. In general I don't believe that scum players will reach out and interact with each other directly in this manner at that early stage. It's establishing links between the slots. Maybe very experienced players who have a shared history and know each other very, very well might feel comfortable enough to do so (I'm thinking members of the SDC back in the day or how I think Tammy and I would operate as partners given how we usual work the same was as Town). But these two - no. There's no evidence that relationship exists. CoA would be risking lining Erika / Piplup right up for scrutiny if he ever flipped scum. And today seems to bear that out. I don't think Cult's stupid. He seemed very reasonable as Town in the Miss List 2 game we just completed. So my feeling is that Cult scum was trying to feel out a Town member who has similar reads to what Cult was trying to portray to establish a relationship for strategic purposes.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'm really also at a quandry on Implosion. I backed off yesterday to re-assess but I can't for the life of me connect with his biggest people of interest being Stefan and Piplup given what I've written about why I don't think they are Cult partners.

Off to bed so maybe more time at a keyboard tomorrow.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Stefan - feel free to disagree with me but don't expect some isolated examples to change my opinion. Especially if one of them is a Mulch Firebringer pairing since Fire specifically always plays scummy when Town as part of his shit-posting style which benefits his scum games to the determent of the his Town game.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Flavor

– so walk me through how the change from 1060 to 1063 is you reading the situation in 3 minutes when no-one else posts in that period yet you flip flip from Saud to Piplup scum. I’m all ears.

I want more from

Hiraki

on why he wants the players he wants today.

--

MoI: Interesting that you choose that example.
The games were not really random, the first was my second game on site, the rest were games that should have been easy for you.
One you played and were part of the scumteam, one were you were the mod.
All games have one thing in common, I was a player in them.
So it was not much work to pick them.

I don’t care the process you used when you are talking about four games as if that small selection is representative of the site as a whole. I especially don’t care that you selected a group of games that only you played in. I can find tons of examples to counter yours if I cared to put in the time.

So yeah – what is the point of this exercise again? You’ve selected some games that have disparate elements from CoA / Erika – Grey is an above average scum player. I am an above average scum player. Fire is a borderline game-throwing Town player to make sure he can screw around as scum and have people go “Oh that is just how Fire plays you can’t scum read him for it”. Those do not parallel Cult and Erika closely at all.

--

In contrast, his setup spec is awful beyond all compare, he should be locked up for that sort of nonsense. But I'm not looking to block any lines of communication, so I'm not going to mock it too har

Well I’d argue that it isn’t really set-up spec since Stefan was the one who brought up how likely Daytalk is and needed to be reminded of Normal Site rules but … we can discuss this postgame as it really isn’t relevant to finding scum.

--

[MagnaofIllusion]

Hey Implosion Flavor just soft claimed without details. What do you think about that?

[MagnaofIllusion]

err damn phone soft claimed Cop.

[MagnaofIllusion]

All of this @MoI. Also others but particularly MoI.

Re: 1032. Meh. I see the line of logic but I don't buy it being a strong tell. There are things that scum have to go "out of their way" to do, and this is one of them, but it's something that I think scum at basically anything other than a really low level of play will do sometimes. I don't see why scum-CoA with Erika as a partner would be particularly loathe to post those interactions because I don't think they're the kinds of interactions that are likely to be scrutinized in the way you're describing. They're the kinds of interactions that scum has toward town to generically blend in, and has toward scumbuddies sometimes because they have to do similar things to scum as they are doing to town.

In particular, by that point in the game from CoA, she has reached out to Keely, Gamma, Erika and Saudade. And I think your characterization of her interactions with Erika as being "to discuss reads and share information" loosely applies to all of those interactions, and I don't think it's particularly unlikely that CoA as scum will have picked out a scumbuddy to interact with in that way by then. Or at least, I don't see what you're seeing that makes her interactions with erika more significant.

Basically, I don't think that it's something that scum avoids doing when they're in that mode of interacting with a bunch of players. I think there's solid chances that they'll ignore scumbuddies in that mode, but also solid chances that they'll intentionally throw one in there, similar to the old tell that if flipped scum lists 4-6 names in a post there's probably scum in there.

Hey Implosion - remember yesterday when you were lecturing me that I was focused on a playstyle difference since we inherently disagreed on your position about alignment reading without relational analysis? Well if you are Town this right here is absolutely in the same boat and no amount of you saying "I disagree" is going to change that for me so it's best to not bother. Feel free to disregard my analysis but don't tell me it's wrong.

[MagnaofIllusion]

But I’ve been looking more and I think you’re just horrible town than scum.

So who is scum Flavor? You've basically called both Saud and Piplup scum and then bad Town.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I’ll try to work up the will to read through the pages of spam to see what actually of use was posted there maybe tonight.

I doubt much but ... you never know I guess.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Quick phone post .. did a detailed read and have some quick thoughts -

UNVOTE: Grey

I’ve got two people I’m torn between on where my vote goes. Need some input on a couple of things before I commit -

Stefan - why shouldn’t I see 1083 as scum thinking? A clear on a VT is an absolute win for Town when PRs exist.

Hiraki - why is Gamma’s vote on Saud from a scum perspective?

Finally the first play to state what I find interesting about 1270 gets a cookie and vote amnesty for today.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Why? Frankly given the antagonism Saud sent his way Day1 and the emotional player Gamma is I find it well within expected Town Gamma reaction.

[MagnaofIllusion]

curious how the topic died for the last couple of days

Flavor, Saud and to some degree Piplup spammed the thread and killed most everyone's will to slog through 10 pages of mostly spam.

Who do you think are scum Gamma? Give my your thoughts and theories. Be the change you want to see in the thread.

Any thoughts on 1270?

[MagnaofIllusion]

actually that analysis feels so weak from stefan, why didn't he raise any objections about more involved things like what I noted, his analysis seems so surface level
can someone who stated a townread on stefan for that wall tell me why it was so good?

I don't think anyone has Town read Stefan from that post ...

And on Prism I'm not talking about the whole sequence there is something specifically about 1270 that I wanted to see if you would twig to. Read it in isolation and think about it.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Yup that's accurate but not directly what I specifically find interesting ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

You're looking too much at the trees and not enough at the forest Gamma. But don't sweat it this may be just something I twigged to.

I'm waiting to get a Stefan response and then I'll lay out where I'm leaning to vote.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Yeah I think I have seen enough ...

VOTE: Flavor

I think that is L-1 but who knows with lack of any sort of useful modding.

I had to decide between Flavor or Implosion as my vote. More explanation when I have time as to why those two and what tipped me.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Having a real hard time believing that claim for multiple reasons.

[MagnaofIllusion]

The part that is the hardest to buy is the Loyal Modifier - I could see you as a scum Motion Detector for sure.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Yeah not letting this go.

I’m the Town Tracker. Crumbed in the first letter of each sentence of 507. Tried to track Grey last night and got No Result which I confirmed with the Mod is not a Went Nowhere result. Which is why I was leaning heavily to there being a blocker.

No way both a full Tracker and Loyal Motion Detector are both Town when we already have a flipped Goon.

Happy for today to be me versus Flavor.

[MagnaofIllusion]

yeah Flavor has gone into trolling scum Mode.

I’ll be looking at Hiraki tonight with a scum Flavor flip.

[MagnaofIllusion]

yeah Flavor has gone into trolling scum Mode.

I’ll be looking at Hiraki tonight with a scum Flavor flip.

I can link you to games that i go trolling scum mode. This is just me giving reads.

@Grey - I believe his read 110% too.


I’m just VT.

Yeah on the off chance you are Town welcome to my personal “Do Not Play With List”.

I don’t think you are and as scum this is fine Twilight trolling. But as Town? Never want to risk being Town with you in a game going forward.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Hi MOI, results?

Also why are both of us still alive?

I tracked Saud last Night. He went nowhere.

I'm very surprised you are still alive. I expected to come back to the game with another night of "No Result" and you flipped or no death. So ... why was Hoopla killed over you is a question on my mind.

Going to poke around some more. Scum are not shy about killing the hell out of the Cult wagon. Might have some relevance.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Vote: Implosion

You mean to tell me that you said you had 2 scumreads yesterday and you tracked someone who wasn't either of those?

Not sure what the point of this is? Tracking you was 100% dependent on Flavor flipping scum instead of being just terrible.

And tracking Implosion would be absolutely the worst choice since I had already said he was my other choice yesterday. I mean ... duh ... he would not be making the kill as scum unless he has a powerful role and can't do both. In which case I'd have likely not gotten a result anyway which makes that an academic argument. That's like Road to Rome level of PR use thinking.

So is your point that I shouldn't have tracked my other read as scum from Day 1 who has done absolutely nothing but tunnel on a bad Town player for 2 days?

I'm unclear on the purpose of this unless you are just wanting to throw some lazy shade. If that's your goal then ... good job, mission accomplished.

[MagnaofIllusion]

You've never actually scumread Saud, you've said he's done nothing (not disagreeing here) and to me that equates to a null read at best.

Maybe read Day 1 because ... this is so untrue that I can't believe you actually said it.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I didn't know you scumread me.

The scum read on your was 100% relational to Flavor scum ... you made tons of sense as his partner since he kept dropping you in his scum POE pool but never made move one in your direction. But since he was Town no point in going that direction IMO.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Implosion

- looking forward to your analysis ASAP.

does this mean I am confirmed town?

I mean this is the sort of post that got me to scum read Saud Day 1. Confirmed Town? Are you kidding me? The number of ways a negative Track result doesn't confirm him as Town are large. And again - read that Newbie game ... he's not an idiot. But happy to play one for the purposes of keeping off everyone but my radar apparently.

Saud

- hey your lock scum read flipped Town. Who is scum?

So I am sure from Sauds Post that MoIs result is correct.
I feel faking that completly is high-risk/low-reward play.
Would MoI have a reason to target Saud as scum-tracker?
I am a bit suprised that he was blocked night 1 and night 2 scum let him track without a care in the world, when his role was out in the open.

I think my reaction to this post is best summed up in gif form ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

Had you actually read my newbie game you'd actually notice it was full of me asking questions about the mechanical nature of this game

Yeah I read that game. Let me direct everyone to one of your late-game posts where you were responding to a question about learning scum strategies ...

Not on here I can assure you
there are other mafia websites

So yeah .. you used "Oh I don't understand mechanics" in that game and then explained that you have experience elsewhere.

Others maybe be sucked in by your faux-misunderstanding play but I'm not.

Here ... have my peasant vote ...
VOTE: Saud

[MagnaofIllusion]

Magna: You have a 50%-ino, is that really a good vote?
What happened to your Implosionscumread, now that he got waggoned?

How do you get that I have a 50% innocent on Saud? I'd really like to know how you got that. Because a "He went nowhere" is not anywhere near a clear. He could be a Ninja (which I expect is entirely possible since I am a full Tracker not X-Shot). His partner could have made the kill and he could be a role that doesn't take action (like Encryptor) or just a Goon.

I'm pretty confident he's not a Town Powerrole at this stage. And I'm pretty sure he isn't scum with Implosion. Other than that I have yet to draw further conclusions. So yeah, happy with where my vote is right now.

Next question - why do you think my scum read on Implosion does not exist? The day just opened and it is 5 to lynch. Implosion already has 3 votes. Should I be putting him at L-1 with no check in from Prism or Piplup? Assuming Implosion is scum he'd absolutely self-hammer to make sure as little information as possible gets into the thread if he thinks that it helps his last partner out. I know because he did just that in MIss List 2 where we were partners. Personally I want to wring every bit of information out of Implosion even if he is the foregone conclusion for lynch today. Because heck if he is Town I want to know exactly where he thinks scum are.

[MagnaofIllusion]

The 50% comes from he was making the nightkill, scum has a blocker and a ninja, seems a bit much for me.
So my reason was he can't be the scum who made the kill, 2 scum, only one posible, only 50% chance.
It also comes from a game where we had that discusion recently, and I lynched someone which that ratio. (hello Hiraki)

Um, whut?

Take a minute and more carefully and slowly unpack this whole thing for me. I can't understand what you are trying to say here. I feel like Lisa Simpson trying to read that ...



Also feel free to link or direct me to whatever game you are talking about.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MoI: Preedit: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=75418
50 % was we have to scum. One did the nightkill, one didn't. Can't be the one who made the kill. So can't be the one who did the kill. So I called it a 50%-ino.
Also a ninja and a roleblocker for just a tracker that is a bit much.
Somethink still unclear?

I don’t see the game’s relevance as a parallel situation but that point I certainly can put aside. I do however think you conclusion makes not much sense. Him not making the kill (or being a Ninja) says nothing about him being 50% clear.

And the “ninja and roleblocker is a bit much for a tracker” bit is why I think you are fishing. Hypothetical Roleblocker would be a counter for all Town roles not just Tracker. You are putting too much effort in that I feel might be aimed at trying to see if you could get other Town PRs to give away their location.

Heck I think the Hoopla kill was 100% PR hunting at this stage. Her laid back not driving play is what I would expect scum to see as a PR signal.

--

There is a difference between mechanisc, and concepts.
I was good at concepts, not good at mechanics. Had you actually tried to scumhunt and not fabricate a push you would realize the difference, alas you dont.

VOTE: MoI

I appreciate the OMGUS. And heck ... maybe you are just a below average Town player who really doesn't have a grasp on concepts. I find anyone having any sort of experience with Mafia thinking a negative Tracker result with multiple scum alive as a clear pretty ludicrous. Maybe I am giving you too much credit and your first game you stumbled into a win by generally being a complete Newb. After the game is over we will see. But for now you can keep my suspicion.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Remind me what are the reasons for scum to leave a town PR alive?

I thought you were good on concepts. Three easy ones just off the top of my head.

1. Fear of a protective role as I'm the only claimed PR and missing a kill both gives Town even more time to get the last 2 scum and could confirm me as Town.
2. No fear of my Tracker power since they have a Ninja.
3. So they can make WIFOM arguments just like this one you are trying to peddle.

If I wanted to spend any time I could probably find more.

Again, happy with my vote while we wait out Implosion's return.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Welcome Cheeky … is mixing up Hiraki for Piplup the level of attention to detail I should expect from you?

Grey

– Real talk time … why don’t you want any part in a Saud lynch at all? I mean realistically you cannot look at his ISO and say “solid Town and important to keep alive”. I get you have other targets you prefer but Saud can’t be allowed anywhere near LYLO even if he got cop cleared. I’d trust Firebringer in LYLO more than him and that should tell you something.

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I think ignoring her is not a good protown thing.

Curious why you think anyone has suggested ignoring Hoopla’s reads?

Also after 1434 you can have my vote because it is garbage tier thinking that there is any universe where I as scum would counter-claim Flavor-Town (you know, who was fake-claiming) unbidden and risk getting counter-claimed by actual Town. You've been ramping up the fishing attempts all day.

VOTE: Stefan

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Hoopla kill was strange. I think it makes it unlikely MoI/Grey are both town. It doesn't really make sense as a WIFOM kill. That was a good mislynch target regardless of who the scumteam is

Did you just suggest Hoopla was a good mislynch target?

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I could counter each of your arguments MoI but I'm tired of doing the thinking for you.

You're probably actually scum anyway so why would you think anyway its not in your interest

Blew up in your face so you run from the discussion while throwing insults. Gotcha.

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: OntheMark

I've been kept from a computer due to my daugther's birthday dinner and come back to this? Sigh.

First off I clearly believe Grey because I dropped any talk about him being scum the moment I saw his crumbs Day 2. It made absolute sense that blocked me as Town who suspected me. I've been busting my tail all fucking day trying to shut down and discuss about what happened with blocks and Night 2 because it ONLY served fucking scum who know there is likely a Town Blocking role out there. Stefan in fact earned my vote on the strength of how much he continued to fish.

So if the scum team isn't OntheMark and Stefan then whichever of you might be Town had better hang your heads in shame postgame. Because we already had one derp Town (Flavor) pull out a claim. Repeating it today was terrrible, terrible play as Town. As scum ... great work ...

Stefan if you are Town stop talking about roles for the rest of today because that's Road to Rome level crap play.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I am already hanging my head in shame just trying to fix it

No. If you are Town go sit in the corner and let those who know what they are doing discuss.

I pray you are scum with that stupid stupid "We have to find the missing block" line of questioning which ONLY served to help scum.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok going back through the thread because Stefan has said some things that absolutely need addressed and answered by him before Night falls.

[MagnaofIllusion]

in retrospect you two should be voting each other since both of you are wrong.

BTW this is another reason why I don’t trust Saud even if he is Town. He’s supposedly got his vote on scum (aka me) but instead of saying “you should be lynching scum” he wants them to cross vote.

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If MoI is town, then his reads and his observationskills suck since the hammer. If Grey is town, he hasn't voted scum since the hammer.

Hey Stefan … so how do you know Grey hasn’t voted scum since the hammer hmmm?

Also I’ve noticed your softclaiming all Day. There are a limited amount of roles that make sense for what you suggest and the two at the front of my mind CANNOT clear Saud which is why your fishing has looked like scum searching for the missing Town blocker. So nah … my observation skills don’t suck.

I mean the reason for scum to claim tracker and cost to endgame, it exist.

So your theory is I’m a scum information role that sees an obviously fake Town information claim and immediately counter-claims it BEFORE letting any actual Town information roles do so? Walk me through that.

I mean the reason for scum to claim tracker and cost to endgame, it exist.

Um again nope. My theory was scum was afraid of a PROTECTIVE role. Like … I don’t know … a Jailkeeper who jailed me Night 1. That you keep trying to suggest Watcher is my theory also bolstered why I still think you could be scum … clear misrepresentation.

MoI real talk, so even if Saudade was confirmed town, you would be lynching here, do I understand that right?

Of course not. Duh. I wanted to impress upon Grey how much I don’t want the possibility of Town’s fate being in his hands since scum is NEVER killing him if he is Town.

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PoE pool is Stefan, Grey, Gamma - after Implosion

So Hiraki talk to me about why Grey was on this list … inquiring minds want to hear your thought process.

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[MagnaofIllusion]

@OntheMark

- Actually ignore the quote below.

No. If you are Town go sit in the corner and let those who know what they are doing discuss.

If you aren't busted scum your homework is to work up your Town three suspects for scum and why they can work as partners. Preferably sooner rather than later.

[MagnaofIllusion]

If you aren't busted scum your homework is to work up your

top

three suspects for scum and why they can work as partners. Preferably sooner rather than later.

EBWOP in bold ... stupid autocorrect.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Personally I'd rather the mass claim happen today. Tomorrow is potentially LYLO and I don't want any last second "Aha, I have a guilties" schenanigans. We can discuss but I'd point to Team Mafia as an example. I also am pretty sure this is my last Day alive so I want as much information as possible to give my last harrah as it were.

I would also like Cheeky to start and popcorn until everyone has claimed role and actions to date.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Cheeky you need to get your behind in here and claim then popcorn. Chop chop ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

what if I dont want to claim

Don't care. This is the day before potential LYLO. We need scum locked into their claims (and potentially busted for them) today so to make sure whenever LYLO actually does roll around scum can't pull out some bullshit to win the game. This is a concept so I would think you were good with it.

If you are Town there is no good reason to not given the above. If you are scum ... sure I see why you'd be hesitant.

If you don't claim and popcorn to whoever you want to claim next by the time of my next post I'll be locking my vote on you and pushing your lynch through. I'm dying tonight and I can't afford to be screwing around with this when today is my last day to maximize my error proofing of Town's chances when I'm gone.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok so everything's come in - 2 Masons and a bunch of VTs. Not surprised. I've had a hell weekend and am mentally and physically exhausted so I want to get everything out that I can.

First - sadly have a No Result from last Night. Grey probably tried to outWIFOM the scum but I wish he hadn't since I clearly wasn't the target. I tried to track Hiraki last Night.

So with Mason claims Stefan and Saud can only be scum together and the claims exclude the possibility of either of them pairing with anyone else. Another scum flip and they are confirmed Town which makes things easier if we lynch scum today.

I'm on board with Cheeky being the lynch. And if she flips scum I ABSOLUTELY want Hiraki to go before the end of the game. I don't have the time tonight but his whole "OH MY GOD THAT IS SUPER SCUMMY" post hammer posting stinks of planned bussing writ large. Especially since he was on that wagon and could have easily unvoted well before Cheeky's hammer. If I can cobble together time I really would like to re-read his interactions as he's been softly pushing that slot all game but never when it counted if my memory serves.

Now if Cheeky flips Town - you've got a tough decision in LYLO to decide whether the scum team would claim Masons. Not outside the realm of possibility. I need to review the early game posting between the two for myself before I give any sort of lean on the issue since I highly doubt I will be breathing tomorrow.

Stefan

- I CANNOT clear Piplup with that early behavior. I just finished a game with Cult Scum where he in the scum PT goes out of his way to indicate that he doesn't like to get caught with thin early interactions with partners and specifically wanted to lay groundwork in that game to prevent those associative links. I'll try to link to that PT when I get more time. It's not damning evidence but didn't clear him like I felt it did early before the other game with Cult ended.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Quick phone post -

If you are indeed Town Stefan do NOT overlook Hiraki when it comes to LYLO. I would ask you to really look at his ISO and see if you think he’s really been trying to push the Implosion slot or if he’s softly saying he suspects them while not really acting to make a real push.

[MagnaofIllusion]

THE REASON IMPLOSION ISN'T DEAD IS BECAUSE EVERYONE META TOWN READ HIM AND THEN DID NOTHING ABOUT IT. I AM V SALTY RIGHT NOW

Spare me. Point to your ISO where you did anything significant to actually sell your read on Implosion. You didn’t and the way you’ve mostly floated through the game saying that slot is scum but not actually push or prompt for votes there.

This feels like ATE hoping people forget scum who thought they had a workable bus for the win that gets blown up can get frustrated too.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Thanks for taking over Nexus. I know it is (or was since you are now the Mod for a different forum) your job but that doesn't mean we can't appreciate that you took over the absolute travesty that was UCV modding and got the game to completion. So good on you!

Reading back my Day 1 and Day 2 this morning reminded me painfully about how much I was dead on about and let it go for a number of reasons. Suspected Implosion for his fake read on Saud Town. Called that the Flavor wagon was stalled because he was Town and put two of the three scum in my group of four most likely to be scum. Twigged to Prism both Days.

Grey I enjoyed playing with you but yeah ... not going to be going outside of Geriatrics any time soon except in special cases like late replace-ins when the speed the spamming is more manageable.

Cheet and Hoopla - glad to see you both and wish you both could have stayed on longer. Curious if either of you have postgame thoughts to share.