mini normal 2042: labeled pictures meme mafia (game over)

[Shoshin]

What's scummy about lying?

[Shoshin]

Show me the evidence. Because I don't believe that. Too many townies lie around here.

VOTE: Fluffy White Sheep

Pushing a pro-scum agenda is a lot scummier than lying. So... let's lynch this please!

[Shoshin]

Hey Krazy, nice to see you again - can you help me lynch FWS?

[Shoshin]

Fluffy sheep is lying and pushing a pro-scum agenda. Pretty good lynch for today.

[Shoshin]

No anti-sheep bias here. I support sheeping. The problem is the wolf hiding in sheep's clothing. You can tell the sheep's a fake because it's too fluffy.

[Shoshin]

Really bad vote, Carmen. Really bad.

[Shoshin]

I'm town... it's a bit absurd that you'd vote me (one of the few players trying to make things happen) over the players who aren't doing anything, or are actively lobbying against doing anything. It's also absurd that Key would suggest I'm scum and that it was a "necessary" vote without voting himself.

[Shoshin]

How do I know that someone who hasn't done anything is scum?

You're not evaluating a single player's alignment in a vaccum so that question isn't responsive to the issue. You're comparing alignments in relation to other players. If you see three players, one who isn't doing anything, one who is actively lobbying against doing anything, and one who is actively trying to scumhunt, which one do you think is more likely to be town and which do you think is most likely to be scum?

[Shoshin]

Carmen, why did you vote for me?

[Shoshin]

If you were bored of RVS, why not vote the person who was actively lobbying to keep the game in RVS? Your attempt to get out of RVS seems pretty shallow, given the events of the game up to that point.

[Shoshin]

Carmen, why did you vote for me?

I was bored and getting tired of RVS. You seem as good a naked vote as any to get the game started.

This doesn't even make any sense. "I want to get the game started, so let me ignore all the things to talk about and naked vote someone." Like, wtf?

[Shoshin]

VOTE: Carmen

[Shoshin]

VOTE: Shoshin
also down to policy flooflez with extreme prejudice

VOTE: the worst

Really should know better than this.

[Shoshin]

Hey Irrelephant. What do you think of Key so far? And Carmen?

[Shoshin]

Nah, Key's scum.

[Shoshin]

the worst knows this isn't my scum game because he's seen it before. That's why his vote was terrible and why I'm voting him for the rest of this game unless he really towns it up.

Irrelaphant also knows my town/scum play. He's correctly townreading me, because this is far from my scum game.

key's notion that I'm scum because I'm playing the same way I played as town is... patently absurd? Like, just take a second to think about it - "Shoshin is playing like in her town games, so let me vote her to test if she keeps playing like in her town games." Don't like Key at all this game. But I'll give it time, because I think I misread him last game and can't remember when he looks like as town/scum and he's sort of awkward in general.

[Shoshin]

Why'd you vote me, the worst?

[Shoshin]

To see how others would react? To get me me to town-tell?

[Shoshin]

Alright, the worst is locktown. Moving on.

VOTE: teacher

[Shoshin]

If the worst had townread me, I wouldn't have thoguht much of him at this point in the game. In retrospect, it's helpful that he voted me. He played it well, regardless of his alignment.

[Shoshin]

I don't get why anyone is calling me defensive? Everything I've done so far has been about finding scum...

[Shoshin]

THIS IS TOWN SHOSHIN

Then her crime is far worse...

[getting off my chest]Shoshin wanted to get us out of RVS and talk ‘serious’, but when I/others actually began to raise serious suspicions on her she basically just shot us all down... basically calling my reason to scum read her as idiotic, and that you and the worst ‘should know’ this is town her. How does that open serious dialogue? It just closes doors. She’s off my Xmas card list now unless she delivers a town win here. Or maybe I’m not ready to be called an idiot... just yet...[/getting off my chest]

To be clear, Irrelephant and the worst should have known quickly that this was my town game because they've seen my scum game. That has nothing to do with being defensive and everything to do with reading their alignments.

I didn't call anyone an "idiot" (that's in your head).

And as for "serious suspicions," who raised any? Because I don't see anyone seriously entertaining the idea that I'm scum. Carmen gave a naked vote to get out of RVS. the worst was doing stuff. You seemed to be testing me. And FWS is probably scum, which means he knows I'm town and is just making stuff up (e.g. the whole "over-defensive" bit is bullshit because I wasn't anything close to that).

[Shoshin]

That said, Key's probably town.

[Shoshin]

I'm surprised people are staying away from FWS. I still think he's scum, for three reasons: one, his read on me felt very faked/forced; two, his over-the-top anti-survivalistic approach to the game feels unnatural and makes much more sense from the perspective of scum trying to appear anti-survivalistic rather than town actually being anti-survivalistic; and three, if he were town mislynch bait, I think the scum would have followed me onto him instead of staying away.

[Shoshin]

How do I get to my wiki page? Didn't even know I had one.

[Shoshin]

That's a really strong townread on xwing. Like, higher than me? Wow.

[Shoshin]

Shoshin -- my hardest slot. By far the most content, but almost entirely self-focused. Others say that this type of defensiveness is consistent with meta. I had a scumread as of 107, but have questions about the wagon. The first RVS wagon is almost never the lynch for the day, because people have a slight psychological block about returning to where they first voted. I am confident (by both statistics and gut) that there was one scum on the wagon at the time. I am not as confident for what this means about Shoshin's own slot -- whether it was distancing or not. The most pro-town thing I am seeing so far is 166's case on FWS. Shoshin, can you provide analysis on other players completely ignoring their read on you for the time being?

I will not provide analysis that ignores relevant evidence. That's usually how scum try to push mislynches.

[Shoshin]

Key, what're your reads at this point?

[Shoshin]

Even ignoring meta, nobody should scumread me at this point. I'm a very towny townie.

[Shoshin]

Key, why don't you think FWS is scum?

[Shoshin]

I am talking about why players are scum. Like, it's absurd that people think I'm talking about myself when I'm actually talking about others. I just happen to be talking about others in relation to myself, which is the only way anyone can talk about others.

[Shoshin]

VOTE: Fluffy Sheep

Carmen is town.

Teacher is town.

Scum is Krazy and FWS.

[Shoshin]

Carmen is town because her read on FWS doesn't come from scum.

[Shoshin]

If FWS is town, Carmen is locktown. If FWS is scum, there's a possibility that Carmen's scum but it's still unlikely that she defends a partner in the way she did. The specific point that prompted her townread shows that she's thinking more deeply about alignments as she reads specific posts, to the point where she's reading into the meaning of FWS's request that I update my wiki as indicative of FWS diving into my meta. It's quite a townie way to read things.

Teacher is town because his questions felt pushy in a way that didn't feel like scum to me.

[Shoshin]

why are you TRing sheep? with quotes pls

Pretty much just the comment about Shoshin's wiki. He'd be the first of my townreads to be reevaluated, but I'm painting with broad strokes here.

This post doesn't come from scum.

[Shoshin]

On Teacher, I like 209, 215, 220, 221, 227, and 238. As I said, there's a pushiness for information and a drive to figure things out on his own terms instead of anyone else's. It feels town to me.

[Shoshin]

I'm not reading xwing as town.

[Shoshin]

It's mostly PoE.

[Shoshin]

Why?

[Shoshin]

I feel like that's already been made very clear.

It's not clear why you're voting me. Please explain.

You shouldn't vote me because I'm town and because that fact is obvious to anyone who knows anything about how I play (e.g. Irrelephant).

[Shoshin]

I feel like that's already been made very clear.

It's not clear why you're voting me. Please explain.

You shouldn't vote me because I'm town and because that fact is obvious to anyone who knows anything about how I play (e.g. Irrelephant).

I'm voting you because I scumread you. I've explained why I scumread you?
Do you feel like you would not be able to grow from your play as scum and attempt to better next time?
Could someone please link me to some town and scum games of Shoshin's? I want to see how easily she could correct her play.

Where did you explain why you scumread me? Can you please elaborate because I don't understand.

It's not that I'm incapable of playing better as mafia. It's that I simply can't maintain any degree of effort as scum for longer than a couple pages. I hate being scum, and that shows up very quickly in the way I'm treating the game.

[Shoshin]

I'm not feeling town Irrelephant yet, so we'll see about that.

[Shoshin]

Xwing, TW, Shoshin all strongly town.
Sheep and Krazy both probably town.

That leaves Elephant, teacher and Keyser.

Can you explain these reads?

[Shoshin]

What did you see that was towny from xwing, Krazy, and the worst?

[Shoshin]

What did you see that was towny from xwing, Krazy, and the worst?

TW I pointed out. Krazy has interacted with people in a way I expect from him as town. Xwing, I think is town by comparison to a completed towngame of his.

I didn't see the worst part, so please clarify for me.

Also, can you be a lot more specific and concrete? This is way too vague given the strength of these townreads.

[Shoshin]

@Carmen

What's the difference between scum Krazy and town Krazy? Scum xwing from town xwing?

[Shoshin]

I think Carmen is town because it reminds me of skitter interacting with you for the first time
I think Keyser is town because I liked his gif and I want him to be town

For the record, this post clears Irrelephant. He's town here.

[Shoshin]

VOTE: Carmen

Answer my questions.

[Shoshin]

Yes, yes, I can tell you're angry. I would ask you what you think scum in my position gains from the way I'm playing right now, though.

You get to argue that you're town in precisely the way you're arguing right now, while also offering substanceless, vague reads that don't look anything like a townie's reads. In other words, you get to play like scum while defending yourself with WIFOM.

I'm not angry. I'm looking for scum. Right now, that's you.

[Shoshin]

Yes, yes, I can tell you're angry. I would ask you what you think scum in my position gains from the way I'm playing right now, though.

Like, what kind of question is this?

"What does scum gain from refusing to explain reads?" Is that really what you're asking?

[Shoshin]

I'm not concerned about getting mislynched today. Does that tell you anything?

You should be concerned. Claiming a PR certainly won't save you, if that's what you're implying here.

[Shoshin]

Carmen, you should probably claim at this point. We've got the votes to lynch you.

[Shoshin]

Irrelephant is town.

[Shoshin]

Reasons to lynch Carmen:

1. Terrible scumread on Irrelephant. I sort of baited it by saying he wasn't town yet (and yes, that was intentional). Irrelephant is strong town, but he's also mislynch bait for anyone who doesn't know him. Carmen's the scum who bit the bait to push a seemingly easy mislynch.

2. Vague & lazy explanation for her reads. And then, when questioned, she refuses to explain her thought process with anything more specific/concrete. This suggests that she didn't develop the reads in a natural way, but rather made them up to appear like she's doing things.

3. Defends herself through WIFOM (and yes, the "Why would scum do what I'm doing?" question is WIFOM and used by most scum).

4. Over-the-top lack of concern about getting mislynched, which just isn't natural. Townies care about mislynching, whereas scum focus on appearing a certain way. Carmen is focused more on appearing unconcerned about getting mislynched rather than avoiding a mislynch, which is what townies tend to focus on.

[Shoshin]

Irrelephant is town.

Can you convince me real quick?

Does he seem like a calculating mastermind pushing a scum agenda or a clueless townie who knows very well how to read a couple players (e.g. myself) but struggles with others?

Trying to defuse a potential argument between myself & Carmen is really towny from him. Just felt genuine. Don't see him doing that as scum. I see him taking more of my side in that, at least at the start.

His overall passivity is really towny. It's hard to imagine him this passive as scum. Like, c'mon. Irrelephant strongly prefers playing as scum. And this isn't what that looks like.

And his response to the "Irrelephant isn't town yet" bit felt towny. The "interesting" line in particular. I think he'd respond differently if scum. Either questioning my alignment or read more defensively, or on the opposite end of the spectrum, acting entirely indifferent/unconcerned about how I read him.

[Shoshin]

Back to Carmen. I feel like town in her position (L-1, under pressure) almost always care a lot about their potential mislynch, whereas scum tend to pretend they don't care because they wrongly think that lack of concern is a town-tell that will save them.

I think nine times out of ten, town in Carmen's position explain their reads instead of pretending they don't care, whereas scum often (more than half the time) keep refusing because they wrongly think that changing their behavior in response to votes makes them look scummy (changing behavior in reponse to votes isn't scummy; more often than not, it's the opposite).

I think in Carmen's case, it's even scummier because she's going out of her way to point out what she's doing, which is to say, the problem isn't just that she doesn't care about her lynching, the problem is that she's making a show of her lack of concern.

[Shoshin]

Thoughts on that, the worst?

[Shoshin]

This is responding to 439.
1. I mean, I was looking for someone to sink my teeth into. I already explained my thoughts about Shoshin at that time if you don't understand them I can't really help you unless you state what you understand.
2. Ok. I'm going to read Shoshin's meta after I finish catching up.
3. 37 comes from scum because it's survivalistic (keep in mind this read does not keep in Shoshin's meta as of yet). 56 can come from either, it's easy to fake.
4. Ok
5. Are you saying I seem inexperienced because I'm not understanding Shoshin's meta?
6. It was still pretty early game so I was throwing my vote around. Also metareads are usually either correct or will get corrected.
7. Ok
8. Ok
9. Ok
10. Uh. I'm actually not sure what you want to from me here. Everything I didn't mention was null to me, nothing striking. Is there something I'm missing you would like me to comment on
11. Ok
12. Ok
13. Maybe Shosh should learn to react better to scumreads for her own good?
14. Ok
Wow this number thing makes me look lazy out of context.
I really like the worst's progression here, reevaluating his read. I think its townie. Now I'm going to meta Shoshin.

Re: 3 - first off, I wasn't nearly as survivalistic as you keep making out, a lot of what you're saying is your own imagination about what my motives were; and second, even if I had been survivalistic, that isn't scummy. Being survivalistic in response to pressure isn't scummy. Again, it's the opposite. Seems you still have a lot to learn.

Re: 13 - As the worst can attest, I've experienced a great deal of lynching pressure in my games, yet rarely get if ever get mislynched, even when people don't know my meta. I'd suggest the issue here isn't my response, since my record shows I'm actually really good at dealing with scumreads/pressure, and actually the problem is your understand of what's scummy. Maybe you should reevaluate your scumhunting metrics and see the bigger picture of how my responses have helped me read the players around me.

[Shoshin]

Really bad vote, Carmen. Really bad.

FWS is reading way more into this than he should be -- there's nothing survivalistic or scummy about calling a bad vote bad.

Worse, he's placing more weight here than feels natural. Like, even if he thought this were survivalistic, it's still directly offensive and only indirectly suvivalistic... there's no reason to assume my only motive is survival... I mean, survival wasn't even on my radar when I made that post, my motive was to scumhunt by taking a strong (and valid) position about Carmen's vote... so why assume it's solely survivalistic?

Feels like FWS is strongly overreaching/tunneling in an unnatural way. I don't get the sense that he's actually trying to sort my alignment, or he would have come around on me a long time ago. It seems like he doesn't know how to fluidly change his opinion (something that some players tend to struggle with as scum).

[Shoshin]

I moved off FWS because I wanted to pressure Carmen. I stayed on Carmen because I realized she's scum.

I changed my read on Carmen because of new information. Remember, I townread Carmen before she gave a bunch of vague & lazy reads, before she refused to explain her thought process with a meaningful degree of specificity, and before she defended herself with WIFOM after being put at L-1.

Carmen reacted very poorly to my questioning and to being put at L-1.

[Shoshin]

Subject: Newbie 1869 | Stuff I found online II | Over

what do you suggest we do instead?

Let's lynch MafMen.

This clears up some doubt.

MafMen was scum.

[Shoshin]

Hey Stun & Aronis, help us lynch Kokichi!

and again.

Koki was scum too.

A pattern of catching scum early!

[Shoshin]

What's your read on Carmen, FWS?

[Shoshin]

Why? Thoughts on my case?

[Shoshin]

Who cares? Just lynch her. She's already refused to claim while at L-1...

[Shoshin]

Why so paranoid, Krazy?

[Shoshin]

Shoshin is a hard read to explain atm, I have very high paranoia for her right now for reasons I can't explain due to site rules, even though her play here looks very similar to her play in SUPP. Partly the observer effect here, and her knowing that we were both in SUPP, has made me a bit more cautious to say this is an easy townread. But so far no reason to see her as scum.

What site rule prevents you from speaking about this?

[Shoshin]

That sounds like bullshit.

[Shoshin]

Do you agree with my reasoning on Carmen?

[Shoshin]

@FWS

1. Why are you assuming my intent was "to make people not want to vote"? Why can't I be town who was simply calling a vote bad without the specific intent of making people not want to vote me? Why do you insist that the only interpretation of my post was to prevent people from voting me?

2. To be clear, my intent was to get reactions from Carmen and others. My intent wasn't to prevent anyone from voting me. I actually don't mind when people vote me, because it usually helps me get a better read on them. But that doesn't mean I won't call their vote bad. because that's how I get a reaction from the person voting me as well as from others.

3. Why would calling a vote bad cause someone to stop voting me? In my experience, the opposite happens -- if you call someone's vote bad, it usually makes them defend their vote, which in turn leads them to keep voting. After all, if someone is voting you, it's because they think you're scum, so why would they care if you call their vote bad?

4. It's a very strange assumption on your part to think that people voting me would suddenly stop voting me because I called their vote on me bad... it's also strange that you think a townie wouldn't vote me out of fear that I'd call their vote bad while at the same time arguing that townies aren't survivalistic... seems like what you're saying comes from the informed perspective of scum who knows I'm town and thus assumes that what I'm saying will have much more of an impact that it actually will on a townie...

5. Why is there more scum motivation to calling a vote bad than town motivation? Do you think town are unlikely to call a vote on themselves bad? What's the basis for that claim?

6. To be clear, I think you're scum for a number of reasons that have nothing to do with the fact that you're not townreading me. Yes, your terrible scumread on me is part of it, but the lack of a townread isnt. Get those two things straight.

[Shoshin]

FWS is scum. None of 572 makes any sense from a town perspective.

[Shoshin]

To put it another way, FWS lacks a town perspective on this game. Everything he's saying comes from the perspective of someone who has no clue how a townie would actually respond.

[Shoshin]

If one of Carmen or FWS is town, xwing's the other scum.

[Shoshin]

i disagree..town under pressure will NOT always care about their potential mislynch..just finished a game where town was fatalistic about her slot and she flipped town (unfortunately i was part of the wagon but that was after she failed to explain her reasoning and thought process after 3 or 4 times of prodding)..to be fair, i admit that carmen is not looking good here and im hoping she'll pop back soon and stop appearing disinterested, but we should give her the opportunity to respond back instead of being so ready to hammer..

I didn't say that town "always" care about their potential mislynch... if you're going to respond to me, try to address what I actually said.

i care! strongly dislike shoshin post here about quick lynching carmen..are you that confident of scum!carmen? also, are you ignoring my slot for some reason? multiple people have already asked why you think i'm scum, you havent responded yet, but you keep responding to FWS (who is the only one seriously "attacking" you right now)..what gives?

Yes, I'm confident that Carmen's scum. Do you have a problem with my level of confidence?

No, I'm not ignoring your slot. I never said you were scum. But I also haven't had anything to say to you so far.

i liked teacher's stance more..clearly he thinks that carmen might be scum but giving her time to respond and not to QH..
to be clear, im okay with lynching carmen slot, but not before giving her more time to explain..what's the rush here shoshin?
did anyone give intent? im not sure if teacher's statement counted as an intent..so maybe that's why she hasn't claimed?

I'm pretty sure teacher's sheeping my stance on Carmen, at least in part, so it's a bit weird for you to say you like his stance more than mine...

[Shoshin]

xwing, please explain why you think FWS is town, and what specific things about our exchange you agree with him about?

[Shoshin]

@xwing

Do you agree with FWS that my motive in post 37 was survivalistic and that it was survivalistic in a scummy way?

Do you agree with the points FWS made in 572?

1. Because you'd hardly done anything towny in the first place. It would make no sense for someone to think of you as obvtown. Therefore, I believe that the scum intention is more likely there than the town intention. I'm not ignoring the fact that it is possible that there is town intention there, I'm saying I believe that to be the less likely scenario.
2. Ok
3. What you say has a lot of influence over other people. Either you know this or you don't and had a kneejerk reaction to pressure if you are scum.
4. How does it seem like its coming from an informed perspective? I'm not denying that they're aren't survivalistic townies. Belittling is a little different. Also I may or may not have mentioned a second part of my Shoshin scumread (I think I hinted to to it): acting like she had before (insinuating she was town, being super confident in reads) while not doing much else for a period of the game because it matches with her meta.
5. The lack of basis for their claim.
6. "or he would have come around on me a long time ago"

If so, please explain why it's more likely for me to have a scum intention in calling a bad vote bad? eExplain why you think FWS had reason to believe my words would have a lot of influence over other people, and explain why you think I would believe that about myself and use it to my advantage as scum? Explain why you think calling a vote bad is the equivalent of "belittling" (what's that even mean?) and why that's scummy? Explain why you think that behaving consistent with a town meta is scummy for me?

If you don't agree with these points, why are you saying that you think I'm scummier than FWS? Why do you disagree with my case on him?

[Shoshin]

I'd also like to remind xwing about post 44 and post 48. I gave pretty clear reasoning in those posts as to why Carmen's vote was bad, and it wasn't based on the notion that I was obvious town, as FWS wrongly suggested (he ignored these posts in all of his "attacks"). As is clear from those posts, the reason Carmen's vote was bad is because there were much better votes (e.g. FWS) and because she implicitly defended the person she should have been voting (i.e. FWS). Remember, I was at least trying to move the game forward out of RVS (a clearly pro-town action) while FWS was actively trying to delay RVS (a clearly pro-scum action). And Carmen decided to vote me instead of FWS, and she decided to do that right after I pushed for an FWS lynch, implicitly defending FWS in her actions.

[Shoshin]

so what did you say actually? you mentioned that town in her position will always care, whereas scum would not [paraphrased]..did i misinterpret anything there?

That's an incorrect paraphrase. I used the phrase "almost always" and "nine times out of ten." I was talking about a probability. You ignored that, and then acted like you were disproving my statement by giving a counter-example, even though I already said that it's not "always" the case.

nope, i dont have a problem with your level of confidence..that's something i even want to have if i would like to improve my game..but personality is something hard to change..

If you don't have a problem with my confidence, then you shouldn't have a problem with me pushing her lynch. You might be opposed to her lynch, because you're not confident, but that doesn't have anything to do with how I feel about it.

what i do care about though is giving people the chance to respond back before a QH, especially if there's time left on the deadline..and they haven't even claimed..what if she's implying something?

I gave her a chance to respond to my pressure by answering my questions, as well as to claim after being put at L-1. She refused on both fronts. What else is there to do?

i never said you called my slot scum either..but you've mentioned im not town..so you might as well have implied it? there's just "town" and "not town" in the game..so i dont get what you're trying to say here..also, you're giving carmen heat for not responding "well enough", whereas you're not responding at all (to my questions as to why, at least in the earlier phases before this)..

In your last post, you said that I called you scum... I said that I'm not reading you as town, which was mostly a response to the fact that people were strongly townreading you. But that doesn't mean I was scumreading you, especially since I had already offered two scumreads (and I'm assuming there's two scum).

What question did I miss? If it was a silly question, then yes, I skipped it. The questions I asked Carmen weren't silly, and I put her at L-1, which should have been more than enough pressure to get her answers. If you want me to answer a question that I'm not answering, there's a very simple way to get an answer: putting me at L-1.

3. ..but liked him again when he tried to pro-actively understand your meta, and had a concluding question of "is it unlikely to happen for scum!shoshin not to improve her scum game?" coz i feel it's a valid point..do you not think so? i have the privilege of not having played with you, so i understand where he's coming from..is this not townie motivation?

The problem is that he's trying too hard to keep open my potential mislynch. Is it possible that I improve my scum game? Yes. It is likely that I (or anyone) improves to this extent without more experience? No.

4. favorite statement from FWS: "Maybe Shosh should learn to react better to scumreads for her own good?"

That's because neither you nor FWS see the bigger picture of what I'm doing. I'm confident in my ability to avoid getting mislynched, so I play with a certain level of freedom to test reactions in a way that's very difficult for scum to react naturally to.

5. i like your point on FWS not being unnatural..but i would say he already explained why he behaved like that earlier? it satisfied me enough..do you think it wasn't honest?

What was his explanation? Why did it satisfy you?

6. i agreed with FWS when he mentioned something to the effect that you have strong influence..i mean very early on both tw and irrel came to your defense pretty quickly..

FWS didn't know that when he voted me because neither had defended me yet (to the contrary, the worst started the game voting me). I know from previous experience that the only players who think I have influence are the scum, because the way I play scares certain types of scum players. I also don't see what this has to do with the main point of disagreement between myself and FWS, which is whether the motivation behind my vote on Carmen was survivalistic/scummy.

7. i agree with FWS that just because people scum read you doesnt mean they're scum..although i feel FWS was more extreme when he said this (coz fmpov i see that you're juggling with different slots and re-evaluating reads when new info comes along--for example initial scum read on key, which is townie)

I didn't say that scumreading me makes someone scum. I said that it would make Irrelephant scum, as well as the worst, because they know enough about how I play to immediately know this is town. But for others, I don't expect strong townreads off the bat.

in general, im liking FWS because he's willing to go against the flow and stick his neck out..and like krazy, he's concerned enough to go and pluck out meta games (though meta is icky for me, it's more the effort of them taking time to read these stuff)..

Meta is a way of appearing like you're doing lots of effort without actually doing any work in THIS game, which is the relevant game. So I don't think it indicates anything about alignment. I've seen scum fake this sort of thing, especially players who do lots of meta analysis as town (since that's how they emulate their town play).

You're also not addressing any of the actual substance of the disagreement between myself and FWS. The issue is my vote on Carmen. That's what I want your response to.

[Shoshin]

no, i dont think that post was survivalistic..

Then you agree with me, not FWS.

1. i disagree..i already said that you seem like a no-nonsense person and moving out of RVS was townie..that said, i think FWS was scummy for ACTIVELY not moving us out of RVS..BUT my gut feel was it was a reverse psch thing and he actually meant it the other way (too lazy to find an old post where i said something like this, will find if you insist)

Then why would you say you're warming up to FWS re: the "war" (which I assume refers to my latest discussion with FWS)?

4. i'm NAI on the "belittling of vote"..i didnt get this..what pinged me here is why say that with no explanation..if you had put in your explanation immediately after saying why the vote is bad, that's good for me..do people have to call stuff out first before explaining things?

Because my way of responding got more reactions from the players I was interested in. I asked about the vote after the reactions. Again, if you agree with me over FWS on this point, why are you warming up to FWS re: the "war"?

1. you always keep addressing yourself and shouting how townie you are, and (subconsciously??) attacking any who call you scummy (key, FWS, now me)

This isn't scummy. Also, you're wrong that I'm attacking people who call me scummy. I locktowned the worst after he voted me, didn't call Key scummy after he defended Carmen's vote (I said his response was "absurd," but not necessarily scummy), and I still haven't said you're scum but the fact that you said you agreed with FWS over me is definitely a point of concern, and it has nothing to do with you attacking me, more to do with you agreeing with FWS.

2. you've ignored multiple "why" questions i've thrown at you (2 or 3 times), which i think is important coz you're giving reads about my slot that you have not explained..if you dont go about explaining them, is it wrong for me to interpret it as throwing shade at my slot? withholding info that is beneficial to town?

What question do you want me to answer? As for "throwing unexplained shade at your slot," if that's scummy from your perspective, then why are you taking issue with me when I call out others for throwing badly-reasoned shade at my slot?

3. willing to hammer a slot when we have time and no claims have been made? even if the slot in question is implying something?

This isn't scummy. I already gave that slot a chance to respond to the pressure. She refused. And besides, I'm confident on the read. There's nothing scummy about wanting to hammer a slot that I think is scum... unless you think my confidence isn't supported by my reasoning, which you've already said isn't the case...

[Shoshin]

Why'd I say xwing is scum if one of Carmen or FWS is town?

Because if I'm wrong about one of Carmen/FWS, scum know I'm wrong. As a result of that knowledge, I'd expect some types of scum playeres (e.g. xwing) to start putting pressure on me now, knowing that I'm going to look foolish after one of Carmen/FWS flips town. It's how newer scum tend to think, because they're not as experienced at hiding their inside knowledge. And in xwing's case, it's especially concerning because he says he's warming up to FWS in my "war" with him, but when questioned about the substance of that "war," it turns out that he actually agrees with me that my response to Carmen's vote wasn't scummy (as well as agreeing with me about a whole bunch of other things, including the fact that FWS was scummy at the start of the game).

I think town in xwing's position wouldn't be casting shade on me until AFTER one of Carmen/FWS flips, especially since xwing appears to support the lynch on Carmen.

[Shoshin]

VOTE: FWS

[Shoshin]

Maybe we should lynch teacher?

[Shoshin]

It's a feeling I got from his last posts. But who knows? I'm probably wrong.

[Shoshin]

Yeah, we're lynching Sheep.

What're your reads?

[Shoshin]

lol

[Shoshin]

Why are you dying tomorrow?

[Shoshin]

What do you think of the way xwing talks about FWS, especially in relation to me?

[Shoshin]

Why are you getting scummy vibes from me, teacher?

And assuming FWS flips scum, how could you plausibly think I'm partnered with him?

[Shoshin]

Elephant - The Sho inno, combined with the D2 effort, make it unlikely to be FWS's partner

I don't understand this read.

Why would calling me town make it unlikely for him to be partnered with FWS?

[Shoshin]

What's unclear about my question? I want to know your thoughts on the way xwing talks about FWS... and since xwing often talks about FWS in relation to me (i.e. he talks about the alignment of FWS in relation to my alignment), I'd like your thoughts on that... there's nothing unclear about this, even from a strained lawyerly reading..

I don't know what your "xwing" question is... but if it's about my read on xwing, I don't intend on answering that at this time. I'd prefer to get your thoughts before revealing my own, mostly because I don't want my thoughts influencing yours.

[Shoshin]

Elephant - The Sho inno, combined with the D2 effort, make it unlikely to be FWS's partner

I don't understand this read.

Why would calling me town make it unlikely for him to be partnered with FWS?

Coming in to hard-inno you seems unnecessary - he could have just sat silent to see if the lynch took hold. By participating AT THAT PARTICULAR POINT, it makes a mislynch (assuming scum!Elephant) of someone who is reputably a good town player less likely, for little benefit that could not be gotten later by making the same point if a mishammer doesnt happen. Basically, it wastes FWS's vote wagon in a way that doesnt feel partnery, and doesnt feel like its done for anti-partner vibes.

From a scum Irrelephant's perspective, not townreading me in the way he did would have been a very bad idea, because it would have immediately exposed him as scum.

[Shoshin]

teacher, why are you so certain that FWS is scum?

[Shoshin]

Like this is almost something I should ask in postgame but I guess I just need to know, Sho -- wtf is this?

viewtopic.php?t=77435&f=51&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

I think I said in the game what happened. To get me to sign up for the game, RC promised that he wouldn't replace out or do any of the dumb stuff he usually does like self-voting... and then he randomly duelled a player with no reason to believe the player was scum, so I stopped caring about the game.

Decent game, though. Good result for the amount of effort.

[Shoshin]

@Krazy

Why would that game cause you paranoia?

[Shoshin]

Yeah, silence would have been terrible from scum Irrelephant.

[Shoshin]

Alright, assume that both xwing and myself are town. In that case, who are the scum, teacher?

[Shoshin]

I think I said in the game what happened. To get me to sign up for the game, RC promised that he wouldn't replace out or do any of the dumb stuff he usually does like self-voting... and then he randomly duelled a player with no reason to believe the player was scum, so I stopped caring about the game.

Decent game, though. Good result for the amount of effort.

There's two things here

>I feel like you warped your meta around one person you knew well (RC), and did NOT do things you do as town around me because you didn't know I was in the game
>You demonstrated that stances you seem to hold in your 'usual' town game (being very independent, rarely sheeping, etc.), are actually negotiable around certain people

I mean I can't talk kinda cause I was on my cruise-control alt recovering from my tilt at Advice Mafia and actively trying to avoid an in-game personality war with RC so yeah, but what I wasn't expecting was for your town game to read so differently than it usually does

Basically I feel like your town meta actually has a lot more range than I knew which makes me kinda wonder about whether your scum meta might be wider than I expect (or as you claim) as well

You were in that game? Who were you? lol...

[Shoshin]

You were an informed neapolitan and you hammered Carmen? Wtf?

[Shoshin]

Krazy's paranoia makes a lot more sense now, knowing that he was in that Epic game... I played that game like I was scum lol

[Shoshin]

Irrelephant, wasn't there an informed scum in the pokemon game?

[Shoshin]

Alonzo is scum, Irrelephant.

[Shoshin]

Keyser/the worst/shoshin/xwing locktown this is gonna be a bad game for scum

Why'd you say xwing was locktown here?

[Shoshin]

Why should I townread you, Irrel?

[Shoshin]

Also, how do you feel about xwing/Krazy team?

[Shoshin]

Irrel, please link to the xwing game?

[Shoshin]

I need to read teacher games.

[Shoshin]

Wow, xwing is scum. That game you just linked confirms it. All the things I find scummy here aren't present in that game. Very telling imo

[Shoshin]

Krazy, can you link one of you scum games?

[Shoshin]

teacher is much better scum than I thought...

[Shoshin]

I'm guessing xwing/teacher now... What do you think Irrel?

[Shoshin]

Keyser -- I liked the early tone of GIFS and 19, though I cant explain why.

This is one thing that keeps me from scumreading teacher. Besides being a very natural sort of town reaction to Key's posting, I just can't imagine an overly-explanatory player like teacher faking this sort of natural townie gut reaction.

[Shoshin]

Do we have any xwing scum games to meta?

[Shoshin]

I don't think Krazy is scum.

[Shoshin]

I'll explain my reads when I figure them out.

[Shoshin]

You both agree that Krazy is town?

[Shoshin]

Should we mass claim at this point? It's LYLO, right?

[Shoshin]

Just claim, all of you.

[Shoshin]

Well, where's xwing? Guess he gave up?

[Shoshin]

I don't understand why scum leave me alive...

[Shoshin]

Could be xwing/Irrel though. Don't have time atm to do the in-depth reading and thinking I want to do.

[Shoshin]

Xwing's town.

[Shoshin]

this guy seems like a funny-weird guy..i'm town leaning on this particular statement addressed to shoshin (NOT the slot yet)..like i take it like some kind of reverse psychology thing..anyway that's just my gut talking..i mean i dont think scum would be playing this scummy? or is this wifom haha

This feels (and looks) completely different from xwing's town games.

[Shoshin]

hey guys! just fresh out of the newbie queue, and looking forward to see the outside world! i would say im confused/bemused..RVS here seems wackier..

also hi the worst, hi irrel!

@tw: why did you change your avatar? i liked the yellow duck pic more..

XWING! <3 welcome to your first non newbie queue game. rvs is usually more standard... this list is largely old buddies who've been playing together a lot lately so we're going at it extra hard. (I actually think rvs in the newbie queue has an elephent of forced friendliness/interaction as well, out of interest)

The avatar change is at the request for a game I'm comodding! it'll be floofy and yellow again once that's finished.

yeah, figured...i think i just better ignore those stuff first as i'll just end up confusing myself haha..
okay, hope to see the fluffy one back sooooon

this guy seems like a funny-weird guy..i'm town leaning on this particular statement addressed to shoshin (NOT the slot yet)..like i take it like some kind of reverse psychology thing..anyway that's just my gut talking..i mean i dont think scum would be playing this scummy? or is this wifom haha..

can you see a clear mindset in Flooflez' posting so far which you can identify as coming from town? I guess where I'm coming from it makes sense for scum to throw shit at the wall during rvs whereas town usually swings by from an angle of trying to solve things

Can you throw me a couple of quotes from him maybe that have you swinging town there?

im not reading the slot as town, i just find the statement (i quoted in the OP) above as townie coz i felt like he was saying "hey let's not progress the game" and is "stopping shoshin" from progressing the game..it seemed to me like he was actually saying "shoshin is progressing the game"..i dunno..that's why im saying that slot's kinda weird (no offense)..he's giving out reads too but not in the "normal" sense..
like see these:
51
60
im just not sure why he's limiting it to shoshin slot..i mean..wouldn't it be too scummy to act like this? granted, his slot doesn't seem to be like any conventional player i've played with so far..it's interesting..

If FWS was "scummy," why assume he's town who is "too scummy to be scum." Like, I don't get that kind of reasoning...

The big difference between xwing as town and xwing here is how confused xwing is here, as well as his reading players as "weird" instead of town/scum. He didn't do that in his town games, and it seemed like that came from a informed perspective of knowing the "scummy" play came from town and thus was "weird." Xwing seems unable to form town-perspective thoughts on this play so he just calls it weird, wacky, etc.

[Shoshin]

Keyser/the worst/shoshin/xwing locktown this is gonna be a bad game for scum

I don't get how you got xwing as locktown here... it just doesn't make sense time at this point in the game...

[Shoshin]

let me think, teach is on me, sheep on krazy, keyser on teach, shoshin on teach
okay great

vote Carmen

Why not vote teach with me and Key?

[Shoshin]

It's very unlikely that Krazy's scum. So I guess it's teacher. But I need to finish rereading before voting, and I need to sort teacher's partner. Associations exist for both Irrel and xwing at this point, so it's a tough decision.

[Shoshin]

Between teacher and Krazy, who is scum xwing?

[Shoshin]

Take a look at Krazy's scum games?

[Shoshin]

I'll be deciding things after Thanksgiving

[Shoshin]

I find towncasing myself gross

Why?

If you're town, why would defending that "reality" feel "gross"?

[Shoshin]

If I told you to vote yourself, would you?

[Shoshin]

Dam. Good job, Krazy & xwing.

[Shoshin]

@shoshin was there a reason you went quiet while I was trying to solve lylo? I don't know that it would have changed the outcome, just curious if it was a play or you were busy or something else

Well, Thanksgiving played a part. I spent the week visiting family and was slowly rereading things when you voted. I'm not sure who I would have voted. Sorting teacher/Krazy wasn't easy, though in hindsight it's clear where they dropped town-tells and scum-tells. Definitely will learn from this game.

xwing was actually my strongest scumread (besides key differences between his play as town/scum, he dropped a couple major scum-tells), but I kept second-guessing myself because I kept thinking scum left me alive to frame him or something. I put way too much thought into why I was left alive. Should have realized scum just didn't want their kill to fail lol... definitely won't second-guess my reads again based on WIFOM-reasoning...

Teacher dropped a few really strong town-tells, but a few questionable posts as well. The biggest thing I didn't understand from him was the amount of effort he put into solving the game under the assumption that FWS was scum. It felt a bit unnatural to me, almost like scum trying to overcompensate for their informed perspective by pretending to be totally clueless. But it turns out he was just actually clueless, like the rest of us lol... I think I over-estimated his skills as scum and in the future need to read that degree of cluelessness as more likely town than scum. Paranoia of his skills got the better of me, I think.

And then Krazy's play looked really different from his scum game, but also different from Supp, so I couldn't figure it out. He was clearly manipulating meta, but it's always hard to sort that sort of thing because I know my own town meta changes from game to game. He dropped two major scum-tells that I'm fairly sure are actual scum-tells for him, now that I know his flip. So at least there's that. I was planning to bring them up before deciding who to vote but didn't get the chance.

I dunno. I'd say it was good play from the scum, though they were definitely readable and we could have won if we were better lol...

[Shoshin]

@Sho: What made you scum me? Only Krazy made a case, just wondering for future.

I wasn't scum on you. I had you as town all game until LYLO, where I was slowly in the process of reevaluating everything. But see my other post where I say what had me confused.

The level of thought you displayed at certain points was way too nuanced to come from scum. Definitely more nuanced than anyone else in the game, at least in terms of how closely you were reading and thinking about the game.

I hope we get to play again!