Mini Normal 2066: Catloaves [Game Over!]

[nomnomnom]

uhh thats not it at all
Days aren't limited to solving a "set" of people

ESPECIALLY on MS, where day phases are like a billion years long. Devoting an entire gameday to a specific topic is -ev, and doesn't help in the long run
sure, that can be a focal point, but we need other roots branching out, reading other things

Okay, let's reword it this way.
I have no confidence in reading Locke right now because of a few factors, mainly because of inactivity. I can't answer this question now. This game died really hard and we need to get back momentum.
Right now I'm focused on the only thing I'm relatively sure of, as in "there is one scum between Roster and N_M".

[nomnomnom]

ngl I really don't understand why roster and not_mafia are the top two lynch candidates today

Milk's flip and how the lynch happened should obvious as to why.

There should be at least one scum on the voters on Milk wagon, and due to the condition of the quickhammer, I'm inclined to believe one of the scum slot is N_M/Roster for how they made this hammer happen, both of them.

[nomnomnom]

I don't understand why scum!rosterfoster would be pushing so hard for Eragon to die when he's being defended by at least two slots for the same reason that everyone else thought he was scum for it

like I don't exactly have the credibility on alacrity that I do on this account but the fact that a widely townread slot was shielding him so hard would make it look a lot less viable as an option for a push.

it just doesn't make sense for him as a scum strategy and I'm struggling to see him going into day two pushing that much activity into the thread only to get hard stuck on a dead end push while the game crashes around him

that's beyond shitty scum play if it's scum play at all.

I feel you have this weird egocentrism going on where you make assumptions on other players based on your own actions only, which is not how reality works. There are a lot more parameters than your own reads at play here, like the fact that roster did this exact same thing last day and last minute, quickhammered milk with no warning at all. That's very scummy considering he announced intent on Eragon earlier that day as well. That and the fact that he magically understood that N_M was voting Milk and was fully aware of what he was doing? There's a lot here to unpack here.

I feel you are ignoring a whole set of issues here, in favor of your own reality.

[nomnomnom]

the dissonance though is that both nomnomnom and grandwazoo were voting me for a significant chunk of the first day and I'm not entirely sure that would be something they'd want to do unless they specifically wanted me gone for whatever reason without wanting to spend a nightkill on it, which doesn't really make sense with my reads and how I was playing up to that point.

Here's an idea:
If something contradicts your own idea of GW and me having a shared and logical scum agenda, then perhaps that simply means we're not partners.

Although seeing your subsequent posts it seems you really want to believe that, despite that fact.

[nomnomnom]

Kinda interesting to me that you shaded my deductions while basing your own around a singular point in the game

But sure I'll look anyways when I can

That's not what I was saying.

I'm saying that you are missing critical elements for your deductions. That's fairly obvious when you do not understand why Roster and N_M are put on the forefront today.

[nomnomnom]

Kinda interesting to me that you shaded my deductions while basing your own around a singular point in the game

But sure I'll look anyways when I can

That's not what I was saying.

I'm saying that you are missing critical elements for your deductions. That's fairly obvious when you do not understand why Roster and N_M are put on the forefront today.

I don't understand why it's those two because roster is pretty town and n_m is an easy scumread to have

It's not because a read is easy that it's necessarily bad.

[nomnomnom]

Sorry, these last days have been fairly chaotic.

I see no problems with mass-claiming. I think.

[nomnomnom]

So, how are we doing this? Are we all massclaiming now or do we have an order?

[nomnomnom]

I’ll kick the massclain off - VT.

I mean - that's not how we do this but, yes, you would have been up in order.

Roster > NM > Locke > Ankamius > Nom > Eragon > me

is my preferred order.

I've always done the version where the one claiming chooses the next person to claim, mind explaining why you chose that order? I don't know the "theory" behind the order of claims, if there's any.

[nomnomnom]

Scum to town. I prefer the scummiest to claim first so they don't have a greater chance of pulling off a fake claim like they would if they were later in the order.

I believe Eragon's already claimed so we could actually just remove him entirely.

If you couldn't choose to be the last person in the list, who would you want to ABSOLUTELY claim before you? As in, something you wouldn't make any concessions on?

[nomnomnom]

that's very little concession room lol

Anyway, I obviously agree with the first two, the rest of the list is somewhat debatable imo but I believe the two first claims to be the most important anyway.

[nomnomnom]

that's very little concession room lol

Anyway, I obviously agree with the first two, the rest of the list is somewhat debatable imo but I believe the two first claims to be the most important anyway.

Sorry, I thought you were asking for one person.

Well tbh that answer still gives me a good idea of your thought process so yeah

[nomnomnom]

I'm a VT so assuage your fears

[nomnomnom]

We probably should get this massclaim over with first.

[nomnomnom]

I want N_M to claim before anyone else. The rest is whatever but don't let him claim after anyone else.

[nomnomnom]

VT here.

Let's get this over with.

[nomnomnom]

What's your claim pengu

[nomnomnom]

Well, all of this didn't really change my mind about N_M being my vote and my preferred lynch today lol

Let's go with N_M, yeah?

[nomnomnom]

You are self resolving because you will be caught very shortly as scum unless nom is also scum, which is only a problem tomorrow.

I don't understand this logic. Please explain.

[nomnomnom]

N_M still the best lynch by far.

Don't lose sight of that.

[nomnomnom]

VOTE: Locke

Considering we have less than 2 days this vote is extremely bad.

[nomnomnom]

you have done nothing in the past week

Because frankly nothing happened in the past week.

I had my mind set about N_M and roster very early on, we had a very bad dead period and the rest has been a massclaim and you trying to deflect to several other wagons in the meantime, and that discussion went absolutely nowhere as far as I'm concerned.

So yeah, nothing can really happen in these conditions, can it?

[nomnomnom]

Is it worth bothering to case

Because I'll outright case Locke if I have to but I won't bother if everyone is going to be like nom

There is not a world where you convince me Locke is a better lynch today. Sorry.

[nomnomnom]

I feel like this game got so heavily derailed by the day 2 bullshit that everyone just kind of locked on to their pet scumreads

Well yeah, we kinda had the most done day 1 because town was more cohesive to begin with.

Day 2 was chaotic in comparison, and today is a clusterfuck because of this.

We kinda didn't help ourselves today either, I feel like. I wanted to throw my theory out there early on and see where others would go from there, but it just didn't happen. You and Roster were the two biggest voices against the nm/roster scums, but my biggest problem is that I just don't trust your game solving. You jumped to different votes through the course of today, and the worst is that your opinion on Locke has rapidly changed two times, from scum to "not scum, nom must be scum instead" then back on Locke again. That's just not good at all! We can't vote Locke here in these conditions!

I literally have no choice but to stick to my initial reads here.

[nomnomnom]

my biggest problem is that I just don't trust your game solving. You jumped to different votes through the course of today, and the worst is that your opinion on Locke has rapidly changed two times, from scum to "not scum, nom must be scum instead" then back on Locke again. That's just not good at all! We can't vote Locke here in these conditions!

that's called sorting, nom.

if you haven't realized, I've been a lot less 'around' since day one.

That's kinda the case for most people in the thread, I feel we're all guilty of this in a way.

We need more cohesion and less apathy if we want to get back on track.

[nomnomnom]

I just have a question in all of this, and it's an important one:

For me it's not about the Locke read, it's about the NM read.

I understand the arguments you put forward, and they're compelling. But in my mind, I still see no reason to switch off a player that I think is scum AND a great problem in the long run. NM is just playing anti-town. What you said about Locke applies tenfold to NM. He does not solve the game, he's coasty, his votes are shady, he causes confusion, he is not active and that's apparent because of the prods he's been getting, and at the times where he SHOULD be contributing (aka about to get wagoned to death) he does not do anything at all.

So how is Locke a better vote than NM? Or in other words, do you have a great reason to think NM is town? Because frankly I see none.

I feel we need to fix this first before getting anywhere, you and I.

[nomnomnom]

What the fuck honestly

[nomnomnom]

nom

do you think that town just loses if town!nm reaches day 4

Yes. 100%.

[nomnomnom]

But again, I think he's scum, which is my main argument for a NM lynch. I'm maybe too biased by the "danger for town" stuff but whatever, I really do feel not lynching NM here is a terrible mistake and spells death for all of us.

[nomnomnom]

you understand that with a scum lynch, penguinpower becomes a cop, right?

Again, you're speaking like you're convinced NM is town. I literally cannot imagine how anyone would come to that conclusion.

[nomnomnom]

tbh

I'm not seeing the scum case on him at all actually, it all looks really NAI

What???

You've been describing things you think are scum to sort Locke as scum, but the same things applied to NM are "NAI"?

[nomnomnom]

one thing I will note that I believe makes him more likely to be town is the timing of his unvote of GrandWazoo

he had his vote on that slot for so long and just randomly removed it to troll with it long after he started being really threatened with death

it's a lot better than locke tiptoeing around the wagon, only to hop on and then later panic and leave when he hit L-1

There was a context to all of this. Locke's reaction to GW hitting L-1 did not feel like a panic at all.

I said the same thing as him prior to him unvoting. We had a similar thought process when it came to how that wagon developed.

[nomnomnom]

n_m actually does sort, the problem is he doesn't show any of the process in the thread

If that was true he would not have been prodded three times already. He's clearly disinterested of this game. Saying otherwise is pushing it.

[nomnomnom]

you know, funny thing

I think the team is exactly Locke + NM

and in the world where that is the scumteam, Locke is the better lynch because he will be harder to lynch

but I can actually see pretty compelling reasons to townread just about every other slot by now so

Harder to lynch by what parameters, exactly?

N_M is hindering this game's solving substantially more. And by the reasons you put forward (as in "he plays like that everygame!") I would argue that in a vacuum, lynching him is harder the longer the game goes. You said it yourself. And again, most people were opposed to N_M getting lynched day 1. That's fact.

[nomnomnom]

Death.

[nomnomnom]

lalalalalalalalalalalalalalala

wheeeeeeeeeeeee

are you alright

[nomnomnom]

nom who is scum

That's a good question, why don't you answer it first?

[nomnomnom]

why should I answer that first?

Because you're someone pretty vocal about your thoughts, yesterday was a good show of that, so I want to know what you're thinking about rn. And I still have trouble trusting you.

[nomnomnom]

Hm...

[nomnomnom]

I had a good idea of who was the scumteam but this conversation is making me think about other stuff.

I need time to process this. Also @locke @eragon wake up

[nomnomnom]

I just have a REALLY bad feeling about your interaction, honestly. Like something terrible is about to happen.

[nomnomnom]

Nom would you mind telling me who you think the scum team is? I think we all agree that Ank is obv town so you should tell first.

I used to think Ank was obvtown before your interaction, and that the scumteam was Eragon and Locke. Now I'm unsure what to think. The wording on her interaction with you is leaving me with a terrible feeling.

[nomnomnom]

It just feels like she's setting up a lynch

that is not Locke

. And for me that's a really dangerous sign, especially with the non-existent reasoning for that.

There are three possibilities that rise in my mind for doing something like this.

[nomnomnom]

Either she's scum, and Locke is her partner. She still puts forward the possibility that Locke is scum but shouldn't be lynched today as to avoid any possible backlash if Locke is ever lynched today, and instead tries to set up a winning lynch.

Either she's scum, and Locke is not her partner. I feel this is purely going in the category of "not being too obvious", and Ank does seem like the kind of person doing this kind of thing. That transpires in the way she talks, honestly.

Either she's town, and she does believe town loses with a Locke lynch, and I'm reading too much into this. But... why? That makes no sense to me. Like, this whole convo fucks with my brain. I can't make sense of it.

[nomnomnom]

It just feels like she's setting up a lynch

that is not Locke

. And for me that's a really dangerous sign, especially with the non-existent reasoning for that.

There are three possibilities that rise in my mind for doing something like this.

I am guessing you've figured out that I'm scumreading you? : )

And why I would want you lynched today over Locke if that is true?

It's fairly obvious that you want to lynch me today. It's not really a secret to anyone. I don't know why you're being overly secretive about things like that. And that's what worries me.

[nomnomnom]

The third possibility makes sense if she really believes Locke and Eragon cannot be partners. Then the only other option is you (similar to the NM lynch yesterday).

That lead us to a mislynch yesterday, although I started it, so I can't really cast blame on anyone but myself. That kind of logic will lose us the game ultimately.

[nomnomnom]

Any sane scum, knowing penguin was Town, would kill him because he's literally a protective and a roleblocker. Scum kills that 99 times out of 100.

Then they would try to distance from the kill.

That's a rather generalizing statement, and I believe that to be HIGHLY debatable, but this is entirely wifom, so yeah.

[nomnomnom]

Nom would you mind telling me who you think the scum team is? I think we all agree that Ank is obv town so you should tell first.

I used to think Ank was obvtown before your interaction, and that the scumteam was Eragon and Locke. Now I'm unsure what to think. The wording on her interaction with you is leaving me with a terrible feeling.

Ank is still obv town

Why is roster Town?

First statement is debatable.

Second, because he's been way more involved than you two in game solving. In contrast, you two have let things slide quite a bit, especially Locke making fairly large accusations against a few people, almost never voting however. That strikes me as a lack of involvement, and thus, scummy.

[nomnomnom]

Any sane scum, knowing penguin was Town, would kill him because he's literally a protective and a roleblocker. Scum kills that 99 times out of 100.

Then they would try to distance from the kill.

That's a rather generalizing statement, and I believe that to be HIGHLY debatable, but this is entirely wifom, so yeah.

Which part of it

There's room to argue that some other kills than penguin were viable here for scums. But this is pure speculation and this is really going to lead us nowhere.

In any case, I do believe that penguin's death had more reason to it than him being a jailkeeper.

[nomnomnom]

The more logical side of my brain really thinks it's as simple as Locke and Eragon.

But like, there's the conspiracy one that involves Ank being scum, and then we end up with a maze of possibilities, and that's a headache right there.

[nomnomnom]

The more logical side of my brain really thinks it's as simple as Locke and Eragon.

But like, there's the conspiracy one that involves Ank being scum, and then we end up with a maze of possibilities, and that's a headache right there.

Ank is still obvious Town from GW's push, if not her play alone

if ank is somehow scum, this games already over

This is such a garbage view of the game. Like, really?

It's not obvious to me, and it never has been. It's just that so much happened during the game that was at the forefront that I never took the time to sort her inherent weirdness and secrecy, and now it's as relevant as ever, because there's still this touch of secrecy to her intent, and on LYLO that's an alarm bell.

If you are willing to simplify a player to a single vote, then you are going to your doom. And if you are willing to lose because you are too lazy to reconsider someone's actions, I don't really know what to tell you.

[nomnomnom]

The more logical side of my brain really thinks it's as simple as Locke and Eragon.

But like, there's the conspiracy one that involves Ank being scum, and then we end up with a maze of possibilities, and that's a headache right there.

Ank is still obvious Town from GW's push, if not her play alone

if ank is somehow scum, this games already over

This is such a garbage view of the game. Like, really?

It's not obvious to me, and it never has been. It's just that so much happened during the game that was at the forefront that I never took the time to sort her inherent weirdness and secrecy, and now it's as relevant as ever, because there's still this touch of secrecy to her intent, and on LYLO that's an alarm bell.

If you are willing to simplify a player to a single vote, then you are going to your doom. And if you are willing to lose because you are too lazy to reconsider someone's actions, I don't really know what to tell you.

Cool

I'm willing to bet this game on ank being Town
I'm absolutely confident on this
I have Gone back and skimmed
Those interactions with grandwazoo don't change

[nomnomnom]

DO YOU UNDERSTAND NOW

[nomnomnom]

Again I do feel like this isn't the simplest of solutions. Simplest is Eragon/Locke by far. But I can't shake it out of my head.

[nomnomnom]

Yeah but Eragon's latest posts have felt so townie.

Do they feel more town than his overall absence though? That's the real question here. And the rational side of me wants to say "no".

[nomnomnom]

And no it makes no sense for me to bust on Locke because not_mafia is a wildcard that would benefit me dead as scum

There are very easy options for me to win and I took a really obtuse one of I was scum here

The thing is that "obtuse" and "non-conventional" suit you way too well. Again, that's how your personality feels like to me, even though I only played one game with you. You're honestly the kind of person I could see doing weird stuff as scum because "I AM A MASTERMIND AND MY BRAIN IS A GALAXY YOU CANNOT COMPREHEND".

Hell all you do has this feeling of secrecy to it, and at times it feels like you want the game to suit your resolution. Again, yesterday was a good show of that, resulting in you "being disappointed you can't drive lynches with charisma alone again".

All these "I would never do that" statement almost feel contradictory with how you are, as a person.

[nomnomnom]

Because I'm trying to avoid a full 1v1 situation tomorrow where there is one less town voice to contribute

Nom optimally wants to 1v1 me tomorrow after this exchange

Locke is in the spotlight exactly because I put him there

This literally confirms what I just said.

[nomnomnom]

My paranoia senses are exploding send help

[nomnomnom]

Nom do you think there’s a world where Ank is groupscum?

I mean, with daychat, I think anything is possible at this point.

Though I have to say: the logical side of me thinks that this game very likely doesn't have a traitor. Like, think about it: JK, Loyal Neighborizer and disloyal blocker vs Goon + Traitor + Another scum? That makes absolutely NO sense, even if the last scum was a strong PR.

From a setup standpoint, it's more logical to assume all scums are inside a group. I think it's highly unlikely this setup has a traitor in it.

Anyway, I still think there's a good chance Ank is scum, even with all of this.

[nomnomnom]

An odd-night disloyal RB is pretty weak tbh.

Loyal Neighbouriser and JK is reasonable, but I don’t think it necessarily means there’s no traitor.

Your reticence to this plan makes me think it’s you/locke though and 3 groupscum.

There is no way GW does that thing because of DayChat IMO.

I am reticent to this plan because fmpov at least one scum is pushing this.

[nomnomnom]

Yeah tbh I think it’s Locke/Nom.

But we do need to go through Locke first.

Pedit: Nom, I really don’t see how Ank can be scum with no traitor. Only other possibility is Eragon scum which is a minor possibility and the only way we don’t win, from all our points of view (unless you think I’m scum, but that idea has kind of been dispelled).

I can't sanely approve of this knowing one scum is pushing Locke, regardless if he ends up being scum.

At least not without discussion first.

[nomnomnom]

If Ank is traitor then there isn’t a scum pushing, and Ank isn’t opposing it because he knows he’ll get lynched for it.

We’re having a discussion .

Fire ahead with any problems you have with it.

Alright, let's put it this way:

If you believe Locke is scum, that means that the last scum is either on the people that are pushing him or on the person finding it odd that 3 people are approving of a dubious plan out of nowhere.

From my pov, there are two theories, and none of those involve you being scum: either I'm correct with my original assumption and Locke/Eragon are scum, and Eragon simply joined this because of "the pact" that I get lynched tomorrow.

Either it's Ank and she is agreeing because it's a winning move, or it simply furthers her victory, by again, cementing my lynch tomorrow if Locke ends up flipping scum.

Do you understand? Locke cannot be the right answer for me. If you are already decided I can't do much, but you'll see with time that this was the wrong move.

[nomnomnom]

you haven't explained what my plan is this game, nom.

That's a good question and if I'm frank, I can't come up with a cohesive answer.

It's just the way you explain everything, the way you put everything, the way you want things to go. They're not natural, there's a certain sense of secrecy to it, and when it's not, it's just you going in a thousand directions with your reasoning and your votes. I can't trust you.

Trying to decode your actions feels like an impossible task, given the kind of person you are. I just stick to what I think is right, and to any other logic I can stick to.

[nomnomnom]

How convenient.

[nomnomnom]

the nomnomnom + Eragon + rosterfoster endgame is juuuuuuuuuuuuuuicy for you at the start of day

why would you not push for that as scum

This is a loaded question and you know it.

It assumes a lot of things from the start too.

[nomnomnom]

What are you implying? That everything would be okay if we all collectively all agreed to lynch Locke, and that I'm scum for being against it?

Don't you see the point I'm trying to make here? Or perhaps you're choosing to ignore it and in that case, again, I can't change your mind.

[nomnomnom]

at the start of the day, lynching locke was a scum-motivated idea lol

Excuse me?

By whose standards? Yours?

[nomnomnom]

So what? Lynching Locke is suddenly town motivated now? On what virtue?

This is my problem with you. You may think what you say makes sense, but it actually doesn't when you think two seconds about it. Your thoughts and reads are not absolute truth.

[nomnomnom]

sigh

[nomnomnom]

Yeah tbh I think it’s Locke/Nom.

But we do need to go through Locke first.

Pedit: Nom, I really don’t see how Ank can be scum with no traitor. Only other possibility is Eragon scum which is a minor possibility and the only way we don’t win, from all our points of view (unless you think I’m scum, but that idea has kind of been dispelled).

I can't sanely approve of this knowing one scum is pushing Locke, regardless if he ends up being scum.

At least not without discussion first.

what

what

what

even if locke is scum

you can't approve of the plan?

Because this plan will end in a loss, regardless of how Locke flips. You already made a pact to lynch me tomorrow and agreed to collectively lynch Locke then me. If this game ends like this, town loses 100%.

I can't really stop you 3, except give you the better alternative.

[nomnomnom]

Which is

VOTE: Ankamius


I am dying on this hill. Screw this.

[nomnomnom]

Nom I just don’t think it’s possible that Ank is groupscum. Literally the only way you can win this as town is if you can convince me that it’s Eragon/Locke again, which I don’t think it the case.

Voting Ank is almost a scumclaim tbh.

You're too deep in.

I can't do anything to convince anyone. I might as well have lost right there.

If you truly think the scumteam is Locke and me, go ahead and vote. My fate is sealed this game either way if nobody is willing to reconsider the trap they're walking in.

[nomnomnom]

Well, I did warn you.

VOTE: Locke

[nomnomnom]

Urap was.

[nomnomnom]

Well, that was fun

Honestly thought we would lose given that chaotic day 1 lol

[nomnomnom]

I wanted to read Elsa's shitposting in the neighborhood PT though...

[nomnomnom]

Nom and eragon, that was excellent scumplay. Like even if nom had been killed your associatives were very good. I independently scumread each of you when I died, but I did not think it was actually both of you

Thanks, I appreciate it

GG all! Fun game! Enjoyed following along after death

Eragon, that was an actual scum slip, yea?

That was intentional. Eragon did this and asked me to point it out so I could look town for a while

[nomnomnom]

yeah, that was pretty stressful lmao

Still worked out in the end, somehow!

[nomnomnom]

Yeah I'm not trying to take away from your victory. I meant it like, "wow, impressive... I would have lynched him for sure"

You guys played well.

Also I think it was lulzy that you decided I was the town glue in one of my lowest activity games lolol

yay me I felt like I sucked

I had this feeling that not killing you would lose us the game eventually.

[nomnomnom]

This last day was wild honestly, I just went along with stuff that was happening lmao

[nomnomnom]

I think it's immoral to replace out fro strategic reasons. `just don't do that in the future, please? <3

It's against site rules to do that.

It's also now against site rules to make a post like 189.

Good job, Eragon, turning the slot around. Nice move with the intentional scumslip - that got you totally off my radar.

Wish nom had made that kill N1...

There was no way I was making that kill honestly

A bit unrelated, but I still don't understand why I got this role? Felt a bit odd considering the rest of the game, which was fairly cohesive in comparison.

[nomnomnom]

Tfw the neighborizer targets me when copping a vigilante is always a fruitless endeavor. Tfw the town roleblocker also thought it was a bright idea to ALSO block a loyal claiming vigilante and gets lynched for it. I tried to draw the n1 NK too but when you said you roleblocked me I didn't have a chance to pressure Nom at all. Who was scum.

Oops!

[nomnomnom]

Although yeah, I think we got lucky in the sense that there were a lot of things that town did that were very questionable and it was very easy to push those as scummy.

Less of those would have probably made the game much harder for us overall.