Mini Normal 2135 (Endgame)

[UnaBombaH]

Tanner (I think) does it earlier in the game... you ignore it completely... I make a mistake (around slots that keep getting replaced I'll note) and it's "a slip up"... seriously Una?

You think you deserve anything else after doing nothing but misrepping me for the first half of the game?

[UnaBombaH]

Like, it's obvious scum want me to be tomorrows lynch no matter what Prana flips today.
That guarantees them a LyLo, or in a case where Prana flips town, a win.

The problem we are going to have tomorrow, is that Persivul seems to be set on me being scum, and as the only "conf.town" (the next best thing at least) he has aired that enough for the remaining scum to slip in on it.
Tomorrow we will wake up with Persivul dead, and at least 2-3 guys ready to vote me.
And only 1 or 2 of them can be scum so...

[UnaBombaH]

I hate games that end up resolving around 1on1 claiming situations.
Mainly because scum have the advantage of knowing which will flip what, and can position themselves accordingly.
That is why I kept saying "mavs vs prana" yesterday.
I felt like one of them was the scummie who decided to make a move and not budge no matter what.
Hence - I still feel like I assessed that half of the situation correctly, and Prana has to be scum.

[UnaBombaH]

Oh bullshit, you haven't read the game.

I thought this was obvious as well btw.
My guess is that Puppy didn't even read D3 fully.

[UnaBombaH]

Prana-Puppy-George is still my assessment of the situation.

[UnaBombaH]

Why did scum kill mavs btw?

[UnaBombaH]

If mavs wasn't shot, wouldn't they still have had a choice of a narrative where Persivul and mavs are both scum, and they played a day full of theatre with popopo?

[UnaBombaH]

The setup would've been 1xIC, 1xMiller and a "red herring"-role to screw with peoples heads on flip?
Doesn't seem any less weird than an additional Miller and a Rolecop on top.

[UnaBombaH]

Scum should've known that Persivul would still be next to confirmed as town once mavs flips green, so making a choice on the kill between the two, or someone like Tanner would've made as much sense if not even more.
At least to me.

[UnaBombaH]

Has anyone else pushed on scum!George today, than me?

[UnaBombaH]

Like REALLY been enthusiastic about it?

[UnaBombaH]

[UnaBombaH]

Like I said earlier - Prana has been practicing this the whole game.

[UnaBombaH]

Has anyone else pushed on scum!George today, than me?

+

Like REALLY been enthusiastic about it?

I really think this means something.
Considering the fact that George is apparently very adamant about Prana today.

[UnaBombaH]

Like I said earlier - Prana has been practicing this the whole game.

yesterday you weren't on either wagon, but claimed u would have voted for Persi. (Why? Did you think a moment of candor would make you look town?)

You can't make it any more clear to us that you didn't REALLY read D3.
I voted for Persivul near the end of the day.
I unvoted so that we surely had the time to make our last posts before the EoD, all of us, but I only voted for that.
My work ended and I returned in time to place my vote back on Persivul, but they had already lynched popopo.

And the only reason why I really wanted to say that, was because
A) lying about it would be anti-town IMO
b) faking that I had somehow switched my reads around even when I hadn't, only mixes it up for town.

But hey, nice narratives on your wagon.
Make a squared hole on the side and start performing for kids.

[UnaBombaH]

Cool. Here's an idea...why don't you stop being enigmatic and make plain cases? Or are you secretly The Sphynx?

Being nasty isn't cool.
I think scum would be pushing for George today, at least one out of two of them, if popopo really named him as a false trail for their result.

[UnaBombaH]

It's an easier story to push on, than trying to convince anyone that someone like you or Tanner are scum.
Meaning that I think scum should've tried to take advantage of it, at least to some degree, today.

[UnaBombaH]

Meaning meaning, that unless someone actually wants George lynched, I think it was just a mess up by popopo.

[UnaBombaH]

Would also fit with Ruby (now puppy) going inactive ~around~ the time popopo made that claim.
And Rubys only "scumread" we got was on George.

[UnaBombaH]

OK Tanner, I've got to go to sleep now, but....

Assume the worst happens and Prana flips green.
Can you see a popopo-George-Puppy scumteam?

[UnaBombaH]

If you aren't scum, then it would have to be Knight/George -- actually, it would be funny if we were all just yelling at each other while they chilled out...

Good attempt at trying to cool the tensions, but that's a scum manoeuvre you just tried to pull there.

[UnaBombaH]

This is a distinction without a difference, you would have voted for Persi if you had the chance, I think admitting that is trying to look town by "too scummy to be scum"

No, that was me making it clear my INTENTIONS weren't to fence-sit until the end.
That's what I was "accused" of.
And I admitted to being undecided and vague with my reads and plays until I felt like voting, but I also explained why.
I wanted all the materials, all the reads I could get.
And then when I wasn't able to return in time to place my vote, and get called for not deciding in the end....?
Of course I want to clarify that I had indeed decided, but I'm not going to lie about just to "look townier".
That's what scum do.

But hey, since you're out here trying to color the opposite as scummy too, mind telling me how choosing either of the two options makes me scum?
And remember, you can't say I'm scum because I'm scum.
Or scum for not doing A but also for doing B and the two are mutually exclusive.
You'll either end with conf.bias or circular reasoning, and neither are good.

[UnaBombaH]

If you aren't scum, then it would have to be Knight/George -- actually, it would be funny if we were all just yelling at each other while they chilled out...

Good attempt at trying to cool the tensions, but that's a scum manoeuvre you just tried to pull there.

MAFIA IS ABOUT YELLING AT PEOPLE

Sorry love, that's not how this works, at least, some of the time, if I can help it.

I do not enjoy nasty comments or raging either.
Also funny how I heard that "sorry love" in the voice of Russel Brand.

[UnaBombaH]

If both scum ended up on popo, it's most likely Prana+George, but I'm not sure I feel that combination as much anymore.
So if one scum was off, from my PoV it's clearly puppy+George/Prana.
I like the latter more, because it fits popopo naming George both ways.

[UnaBombaH]

Off to bed for me, I'll check on you guys tomorrow.

[UnaBombaH]

But this is the same thing I said -- you admitted you were off the wagon so you would look town

What. On. Earth. Are. You. Smoking?
I have never, nor would I ever, admit to having been off the wagon to "look town".

It doesn't even matter what you wrote below this, I refuse to read any further tonight.
You have absolutely worn me out with this final blow.

[UnaBombaH]

both scum bussing just doesn't make sense, if that were the case popo didn't need to bother with his cc at all

This is speaking with the knowledge of what actually ended up happening.
Consider it from a scum-perspective, and yet again, potentially without day-chat to help with the communication.
Both remaining scum really might've ended up bussing for multiple reasons.
Considering the fact that your slot is the one that has had replacements galore, and there's a can of worms about potential reasons.
People not agreeing on actions / each others' gambits / bussing vs derailing wagons etc etc.

Add it all to the fact that people simply don't play an optimized version of the game very often, if ever.
I guess we'll find out the reasonings for each individual nightkill at the endgame, but even those choices don't seem all very logical to me.
But that's all just guessing until the game's over.

[UnaBombaH]

no, no no no no no

i am overthinking this, there are two scum and popo did not bus his scummate with a tracker guilty

Well, in a way, popopos claim makes the MOST sense in a world where Persivul is scum too.
It would've just required the town to have any other PRs for the setup to even seemingly make any sense, but since we don't have any, there's no reason to discuss that alternate reality anymore.

[UnaBombaH]

how can persi believe this if he is going to role cop the second miller that night?

I've gone down that route already.
My favorite bet for scum yesterday was "both I guess", which made it so difficult for me to decide.
I already ISO'd both of the slots extensively yesterday, and had those same strokes of paranoia.

But you are a day late and a dollar short already.
Persivul isn't going to be lynched in this game, ever, based on setup spec. alone.
If Persivul is scum and someone tells me after the game that I'm stupid for thinking it'd be unfair for town to have two Millers, a red herring -quasi-Miller role and an IC and nothing else....well....
Guess I'm stupid then.
But I know this would likely be my last Normal game on site as well.
My latest Normal Game already was a shitshow in terms of modding, roles and rules.
I play this queue above anything else because I'd like to think these are supposed to be closed setups with room for fakeclaiming, but a definite guideline for balance and roles as well.

[UnaBombaH]

^^Also the added benefit of getting BOTH you and mavs out in one move.

[UnaBombaH]

Why did I torture myself by subbing into a lategame D4? :p

Some of my favorite games have been replacements in, because I often have a better grasp of the game when I read it from start to finish without any confirmation bias having time to manifest throughout the long in-game days..
But it's a grind for sure.

[UnaBombaH]

Una:
Main read: Puppy/George

I also like the fact that while I gave my FULL opinion on the matter, i.e. this:

If both scum ended up on popo, it's most likely Prana+George, but I'm not sure I feel that combination as much anymore.
So if one scum was off, from my PoV it's clearly puppy+George/Prana.

But Prana has been delightful enough to leave himself out of my reads..
If anything, my main read is more like Prana/Puppy.
Followed closely by Prana/George, and maybe at the 3rd spot we have Puppy/George.

I bet you all that no matter what Pranas alignment ends up being, they will continue misinterpreting me in the Dead-PT....

[UnaBombaH]

VOTE: Prana - I'm done with this madafakin dayphase, in this madafaking game.

[UnaBombaH]

I can only see two reasons for killing Tanner. And only one of them is sensible in this game-state. -_-

I'll have to re-read it all I guess, but at the very least I have the luxury of getting to pick from a 2/3 scumpool because I refuse to backtrack on Persivul.

Puppy/George is obviously the one I'm left with since Prana flipped green after all.
I'll do more work with the ISOs to really feel like I can lock it down before throwing down a vote obviously, but that's where I'm right now.

[UnaBombaH]

We are not rushing this.
Tanner was the only one here who would've probably taken my side and not voted for me today.
So far 2/2 of you have named me as scum.
Point taken.

[UnaBombaH]

Puppy/George is obviously the one I'm left with since Prana flipped green after all.

?? Why am I the obvious choice here. What's your towncase for knightmare?

Don't do anything hasty this time George, OK?
What I'm saying here is that my scumpool yesterday was Prana/Puppy/You.
Meaning that I THOUGHT we would simply win by lynching in roughly that order, because I THOUGHT Prana was the most certain scum out of the three of you.

Hence, "I'm obviously left with you two as scum now" - the only two left out of my scumpool.

But it's LyLo, so everyone has to at least try and reassess the game at this point.
Try to read stuff from the earlier days, I know I will too.
Remaining stuck in your reads is a mistake at this point simply because scum have been observing those tunnels and biases up until now, and this is where they want to make them worth something.

[UnaBombaH]

The problem with the puppy-slot is the fact that they literally haven't been playing most of the game.
So it's hard to PoE them in OR out of the scumpool when their interactions with other slots have been minimal to say the least.

The interesting thing here that caught MY eye on a skim-reread (the kind where I only focus on surface level things and don't actually do quote-walls), is that IF puppy is scum, BOTH puppy and popopopopo threw some focus towards George.
Check the few posts Ruby made.
And then the fakeclaim from popopopo.
Was George supposed to be the designated mislynch until they realized Persivul was willing to include me in there?

[UnaBombaH]

Was George supposed to be the designated mislynch until they realized Persivul was willing to include me in there?

Everyone includes you in there. Why do you single me out?

Because your words carry the most weight around here, since you are the one and only member of the townblock.

[UnaBombaH]

I'm currently thinking Una/Knight.

The nk would suggest that yeah.
I'm not sure why they killed Tanner over you. Maybe they were scared that he would pull more weight in lylo, not sure.

This is ridiculous.

I've already given my solve of red!Prana = Puppy>Una, green!Prana = Puppy/Knight. Subject to change in the near future if Persi actually replies to me.

For example this here.

I think if Prana were to flip Town today that means at least one scumfuck was trying to get Una lynched tomorrow.

And this. Just to give a few examples.
To make it absolutely clear - Tanners whole trajectory yesterday was moving more and more clearly towards Una = Town - especially if Prana flips green. Which they did.
So do NOT come out here spewing bullshit about how killing Tanner last night would've made any sense for scum!Una. Fuck.

And before you come out here flipping out that WIFOM-argument that we've been having to deal with for the whole fking game - YES, it always COULD be a WIFOM-move.
Except no FKING WAY WOULD I RISK BEING LYNCHED MORE LIKELY TODAY AS SCUM.
Idiotic to even suggest that.

[UnaBombaH]

This is what I meant when I started the day by saying there's only one sensible reason for killing Tanner last night, and it's because I was the designated lynch for today.
Killing Persivul would've meant that there's a small chance for scum to try and push for Tanner and shake their credibility, but they would've had very little success ever getting a lynch there.
AND Tanner was becoming more and more pro-Una the last day phase, meaning that it would've been from the same pool of three I currently have to deal with as well.
The difference being that Persivul thinks I'm scum, and has already stated a hesitance in reconsidering their reads. (which I can still respect to some degree, but will end up losing the game anyway )

[UnaBombaH]

Because I have been unable to make a clear difference in the wagons and lynches so far.
I have been unable to do much "obvious" good for towns benefit.
And I was wrong about you vs popopo.
But the biggest reason is because you have, as the closest thing we've had to a conf.town., vocalized scum!Una as a reasonable solve to you. It's way easier for scum to follow that agenda, than to try and come up with the material for themselves.

I'd argue that in a sense, this is a Classic 5-player LyLo setup for scum.
One hard null slot that has been replaced twice and has very little in terms of posts.
One slot that is considered town by mostly everyone, but has at least one, maybe two mislynches in their scumpool, and then the middleground.
Realistically puppy has been kept around just because scum would never need to kill an inactive slot, but at the same time Knightmare+George doesn't quite satisfy me.

[UnaBombaH]

From my POV it's pretty clear, I do not see GB being scum due to interactions with popo

And the funny thing about this is either you are wrong about george, or you are scum yourself.
Interesting times..

[UnaBombaH]

Would scum include their partner as one of the two in their scumpool at this point?
Interesting thought.

I mean, assume scum!puppy.
Would scum!Knightmare include puppy in their final two, when they could just name Una+George?
Unless we have the most unconfident scumteam I've ever seen, they SHOULD go for the win today, right?
Meaning that having me as their #1 target is all fine, but their second pick SHOULD(?) be town too, just in case somone like Persivul poots their foot down for me today.

I'll be doing my full ISO-works on the three suspects during monday and tuesday.

[UnaBombaH]

Good point.
How come I didn't stop to think about that yesterday?
Prana was the one who swapped to popopo to at least avoid a no-lynch.
Something the scummies absolutely didn't have to do.

The other one who basically had no necessary "need" to vote on popopo at that point was George, but they did it anyway.
Knightmare couldn't have swapped because he was already on popopo with Tanner and Persivul.
Which is why it's so "easy" to pin it down on "Una+Puppy".

But here's the kicker - I still refuse to believe that scum would have daytalk here.
Meaning that coordinating their votes might not have been as easy then and there.

And if we were to assume a remaining team of Puppy+Knightmare it would also fit very well.
Knightmare took a spot in the popopo-wagon for distance (or because they might've thought there was no way for Persivul to actually be the lynch), and Puppy wasn't replace in yet, so not able to vote anyway.
popopopo obviously voted for Persivul. This would land all three scum in separate "groups" in regards to that lynch.

Knightmare+George seems to make the least sense.
To be fair, now that I've reread that voting-sequence, I do not see why scum!George would ever vote for popopo that late.
If George hadn't voted for popopo, or voted for Persi instead, scum could've just waited for me to show up and hammer Persi.

So I guess it's Knightmare+puppy after all?
Well, like said.
I'm gonna do the full ISO-work on all of them starting tomorrow, and then make my decision.
I just find it hilarious that I was almost certain of it being George+Puppy before Knight managed to wake me up.

[UnaBombaH]

No matter the end result, this is going to go down as my worst towngame anyway.
Maybe not counting my first games, but you know what I mean.

[UnaBombaH]

So in all simplicity it's just Knight+Puppy.
I did a full read on Knightmare during work today, but I've been unable to post anything.
Not sure why I'm unable to login from my work laptop. I could only read, not post.

[UnaBombaH]

Also I'm not sure what's with all the speculation about me mentioning scum- daytalk?
All I've been pointing at, is the fact that I do not believe they have it at all, and thus they were unable to plan D3 well beforehand.
Hence why it now leads me to scum!Knight rather than scum!George.

[UnaBombaH]

I'm online, not in a rush to hammer.
But definitely willing.

[UnaBombaH]

So that counts out Una+puppy for all of you out there still counting, right?

[UnaBombaH]

Your teammate still has a good chance to persuade the other remaining townie tomorrow, so don't get discouraged.

[UnaBombaH]

Wait what Persivul?
I really thought you had seen the light.

[UnaBombaH]

Well, the thing here is this - we have now ruled out Una-puppy.
I am almost 100% on puppy+Knight.

So how about I vote Puppy and we risk scum on George?
That way it's either Knightmare+Una or Knightmare+puppy and no ways around it.

[UnaBombaH]

Knightmare+puppy.
I'm town here.

[UnaBombaH]

Are you online right now?
Anything we can talk through to make it more clear?

[UnaBombaH]

Also, I do not enjoy the idea of us being in a 11:2.
That would be messed up.

[UnaBombaH]

With these votes, I don't think it's puppy/knight. That leaves:

una/knight
una/puppy

Shame, I do not think puppy/knight should be excluded just because of these votes.
In fact, I believe they have been laid down for the simple reason of providing the last distancing effort.

Just read puppy's ISO again, and I think una/puppy is close to impossible. puppy was pushing una and repeatedly saying we should lynch between una/puppy instead of lynching prana. I don't see how anyone can read that and come away thinking it's s/s distancing.

I might be picking my nose too deep here, but I am NOT scum here.
Meaning that Una/Knight is wrong.
And we both agree that George is very much likely town here (and I guess I'm gonna lay my mind to rest on that as well to avoid paranoia), and that Knightmare is scum.
Hence my earlier "it's just Knight+Puppy after all"-type of realization.

[UnaBombaH]

Good job, I assume hammer is now fine with no hard feelings?
Remember that you are the likeliest one to (finally?) die tonight

If you have anything other than "lynch Una tomorrow" to say, I'm willing to give you/George that opportunity.

[UnaBombaH]

im still scum reading nightmare.

persivul lied yesterday and i believe he is still not being truthful with us.

ok, not exactly a crumb but I get the point. If scum had it planned out I think the last scum really has to be una

I still REALLY disagree with scum planning that out.
I just think the posting lined up in their advantage in regards to that claim.
I believe it was a "selfish" survival-gambit from popopo.

I still think that "crumb" in there is just popopo trying to lean into a Persivul "paranoia-lynch".
And especially if it was a planned gambit, the scum team would've made it work out more smoothly.
Scum!Una would've never positioned themself the way I did there.
"Undecided" for most of the day, THEN choose "wrong" and still remain without a vote when the day ends, IF it really was a planned gambit and I was the teammate there?
No way.

[UnaBombaH]

Knightmare being the "busser" for distance, and Ruby being absent is way more likely and logical.

[UnaBombaH]

Eh, guess I'll just hammer and we can talk it all out tomorrow.
Here goes nothing: VOTE: Knightmare

[UnaBombaH]

What the actual fuck.
It was really just a 11:2?

[UnaBombaH]

I do not even care much which of you is the remaining scum.
This must've been a bs game for the scumteam to wiggle through anyway, and town was at a ridiculous situation because they couldn't have possibly solve the whole team because every good theory was based on 10:3.
Guess this is me saying that I'm not a fan of the Normal Queue anymore.

[UnaBombaH]

I took a little walk to re-evaluate and realized Persivul-scum isn't AS unlikely at all anymore either.
11:2 would explain why the dude is still alive.
It would also explain that popopo vs Persivul situation, AND THE FACT THAT I FKING SAID BACK THEN ALREADY THAT EITHER OF THEM COULD BE SCUM IN THAT SITUATION.
I felt so undecided but chose Persivul in the end.
It would feel hell of a lot better to know I was technically correct with my reads at that point, and the only thing that messed me over was the fact that I would've never ever dreamed of a 11:2.

[UnaBombaH]

Not my scumgame either.

[UnaBombaH]

Persivul being so willing to push for me instead of acting the role he has assumed for the past three days?
Puppy not pushing for scum!Persivul agenda at all?
Meaning that the only reason Persivul is alive, is because he is scum.

Sorry for you bro.
You either win this because puppy doesn't see it and your gambit crosses the finish line with the last fuel-fumes, or you lose this because it was 11:2.

[UnaBombaH]

Persi, I'm fine with you voting me here.
If you do that and puppy doesn't immediately hammer, I can feel better for knowing you were the scum after all.

[UnaBombaH]

normally in lylo like this i woud go back and look at the d1 wagons and draw pretty green and red colors around all the flips. is that even worth my time when we had two millers and a IC and there was basically no normal wagon development?

Probably not. Here's something interesting from the VCs though:
We've lynched 4 town.
Una was the hammer on 3 of them.

And scum!Una would want to have that prestigious title because..?

[UnaBombaH]

We've lynched 4 town.

AND you were on every single one of them yourself as well.

[UnaBombaH]

scum has to have known all along that it was 11:2

That's part of my read. You discussed the possibility of 2 scum openly. Una didn't.

Because I honestly did not want to believe it to be a possibility.

[UnaBombaH]

I dare you to vote me Persi.
If it's scum!puppy, you are not voting there today anyway, what with your FoS and all..

[UnaBombaH]

^^ That's a dirty quote.
That was me assuming it's 10:3.
And if you REALLY stop to think about it - considering that quote - WHY would scum!Una EVER bring you to a LyLo?

[UnaBombaH]

Oh, so it was like that.
Good choice leaving Persivul alive.

[UnaBombaH]

Nor should you.
I already said this was one of my worst towngames.

[UnaBombaH]

Obviously not your fault puppy, but having lurker-slots in the game is always bad for town.
It's harder to consistently fake reads and keep a fake-trajectory going throughout 1-5 days, rather than jump in midgame and just "solve" the game based on flips.

[UnaBombaH]

Obviously not your fault puppy, but having lurker-slots in the game is always bad for town.
It's harder to consistently fake reads and keep a fake-trajectory going throughout 1-5 days, rather than jump in midgame and just "solve" the game based on flips.

[UnaBombaH]

Nor should you.

Thanks, but still, I suck. I think I'm taking the summer off after the game I'm currently in.

I'd love to get back into groove.
I was starting to get into this before my long hiatus.

[UnaBombaH]

Yea, as if anyone cares about my input, but I think the game here fell for "too much weird" like implied earlier.
I'd actually argue that a 3 man scumteam would've been absolutely fine here, and potentially balanced the game way more FOR town.
Why?
Simply because our silly attempts at reads and analysis all hinged on the assumption that we were up against a 3man scumteam.
Reading associations post-flip is a big thing, and molds ones reads throughout the game.
So when someone suddenly throws in your face that the setup has -1 scum from what everyone initially assumed, it might potentially throw all reads out of the window as well.
It also gives scum another information-advantage that might help muddy up the connections and associations.
Wagon-analysis is way different.
Etc etc.

In my opinion, everything else (while janky and "goofy") was more or less fine.
I like it when a setup is different, but I think every single Mini Normal should be 10:3, and built as such.

[UnaBombaH]

And to be absolutely clear - I do not think NK15 did a poor job modding or even designing the setup.
In fact, kudos for the idea.
If you had made a setup like this for a 10:3, and I do think it would've been doable rather easily, I think this game would've been amazing.

I always bring up Blessed Mafia as an example for everything, but I really liked that game and all the janky roles and designs in it.
(the Mafia team was named Werewolves which made some people suggest multiball, there was a Cleric, TownUniversalBackup, a Miller....interesting stuff)