Mini Normal 2170: Stuff I’m Listening To [Game Over]

[The Bulge]

i dig it

VOTE: murdercat

[The Bulge]

Murdercat gives me gut feelings of scum from the way he dismissed the growing wagon on him but I'll admit that's weak, which is I'm not voting him. I'd like a proper wagon on him sometime, but like I said, I'd rather have a wagon somebody who will be troublesome to read so we can figure them out early.

you cite a weak gutread here as a reason for not voting murdercat, but is that not what made you want to push blitzo?

part of the reason

is there any other specific reason you are not voting murdercat?

[The Bulge]

Like I said, it was a weak gut read. I don't have any real evidence or justification for it.

ebwop this was supposed to be attached as well

[The Bulge]

UNVOTE:

[The Bulge]

{Thestatusquo}
{Panzerjager, PookyTheMagicalBear, The Bulge}
{Not_Mafia, Noraa, Kasumeat, duppin, OutWorldER, UneducatedGuesser}
{Gamma Emerald}
{Blitzo}

pedit: Was just about to post this for content but ok

what's the rush to get a list like this out?

[The Bulge]

seems like most of the people outside of your true null territory are for pretty shallow reasons? so idk how much content this really provides, unless you're hoping for reactions, which judging by the list it doesn't seem you are.

[The Bulge]

unless you're hoping for reactions, which judging by the list it doesn't seem you are.

Why do you think that?

there's nothing particularly standoffish about it aside from the lack of explanations

although I myself did call you out on your list so I guess I'm chasing my own tail here

[The Bulge]

but my impression is still that you weren't intending to bait reactions

[The Bulge]

@Bulge - what do you think of murdercat right now? I saw that you unvoted him but would like some clarification on why, please.

answers making sense so far, i've seen nothing from him since the post I originally voted for that would make me vote again.

[The Bulge]

i could go for outworld rn, prob not anyone else

[The Bulge]

Murdercat gives me gut feelings of scum from the way he dismissed the growing wagon on him but I'll admit that's weak, which is I'm not voting him. I'd like a proper wagon on him sometime, but like I said, I'd rather have a wagon somebody who will be troublesome to read so we can figure them out early.

you cite a weak gutread here as a reason for not voting murdercat, but is that not what made you want to push blitzo?

part of the reason

is there any other specific reason you are not voting murdercat?

In that particular instance I decided it was better to try and pressure a slot I felt was hard to get a grasp on than push minor scumpings. I'm still in the midst of parsing the information I've gathered.

what's the difference this early in the game?

[The Bulge]

I've mostly liked Murdercat except for this:

{Thestatusquo}
{Panzerjager, PookyTheMagicalBear, The Bulge}
{Not_Mafia, Noraa, Kasumeat, duppin, OutWorldER, UneducatedGuesser}
{Gamma Emerald}
{Blitzo}

pedit: Was just about to post this for content but ok

I agree with the SRs but the TRs on Panzer and Pooky are bizarre. Panzer has just two RVS votes and Pooky has made nothing but no-content white noise posts. Why do you TR them?

at the time of this post, I had as little content as panzer and pooky. sure i'd posted more between murdercat's list and this post, but I struggle to see this as a genuine critique given that fact

I have mixed feelings on Outworld. I like what reads he's given so far, but his justification for them does indeed feel off. I would prefer Blitzo/a lurker/Pooky at this point.

I don't like this post, something about the pacing of it and how much time is spent talking about outworld rather than blitzo/pooky/whichever lurker kasu presumably had in mind. I know it's only a one-liner but eh

[The Bulge]

I didn't like this vote because it felt like you were trying to ramp up a wagon while still pretending to be a RVS vote.

There was discussion happening around this statement so you were either ignoring that discussion or werent interested in having it. You had already made your joke opening vote for trying to claim that you werent voting for real is a stretch to me, especially since there was already information out there. It just rings kind of fishy to me. The whole interaction reads kind of fishy to me.

Post 40 and 103 is more indication that its not a random vote, but they're harping lines of questioning that I was already having without adding anything additional of substance for something that literally the player would have had to decide to do pre-game, which I pointed out at the time.

Post 154 is basically just you reiterating that what you are suspecting blitzo for is not really alignment indicative.

Then after that you start harping on not active people, which brings us to your post 176 which basically says "I'm going to ignore all the content that has happened so far in the game I want to yeet the guy who has done the weird thing that is NAI or some lurker."

It doesn't add up to me. It just doesn't look like you're earnestly trying to find scum.

My initial vote on Blitzo was very clearly a joke. I didn't like Blitzo's reaction to it nor did pretty much anyone else in the game. 40 is me seeing if Blitzo has some sort of reasonable explanation for it, which he didn't give, so 103 is me making it clear that what was a joke vote is now a real one. As for not participating in the discussion at the time, I work in restaurants which means I'm not on a computer and I only have a minute here or there to phonepost when I'm working in the afternoons/evenings EST.

In 154 I'm saying that I'm torn between whether Blitzo's weirdness is NAI or scummy. So with one possibility making me null on him and the other making me SR him, in what fucking universe does that mean I should still be null on him? Because that's exactly what you're saying.

"You were trying to ramp up a wagon" is bullshit. Ramp up the wagon with literally nobody on it? There is no way that you honestly believe that I'm scum trying to lynch a townie with my case being built upon "Blitzo likes playing mafia" as the basis for the wagon. You're taking what was very clearly an RVS vote and saying "your case here is terrible" and using that as justification for SRing me? There is no fucking way that an experienced townie makes a read like yours on me.

VOTE: Shea

this is awful. blatantly misrepping shea in the last paragraph, and the whole leadup going from meticulously defending himself immediately to "you're scum for being so wrong" makes no sense to me. I mean if he's scum, why so paranoid on the defense? and if he's so incredibly off-base, why the need to address it so seriously?

[The Bulge]

There are several questions I have for 205.

Blitzo's post 34 is overly defensive to what I perceive as a joke from Kazu(can I call you that?) Overall an interesting slot but they are in my null for the time being.

You see Blitzo as overly defensive (which I agree with) but then go on to null them. Can you elaborate?

Duppins posts are giving me such strong town pings, I'm worried he's scum. in the slight scum reads he goes.

What on earth is this logic? "They seem towny, so I'm going to scumlean them"????????

Shea is .... meh null.

Can you go further into detail on your thoughts on TSQ?

I may end up switching votes here.

jumping right into the least consequential and easiest parts of the easiest post so far to pick apart

[The Bulge]

I meant for the claim thing. Didnt even read the whole sentence rip.
All I saw was "Pooky is ascetic peacemaker Noraa so role fishing is allowed now"

i know noraa gets paranoid but hmmmm

I can't read Shea aorn. His play style is one of those that I generally struggle to read just like Pooky and Not mafia. These take me a lot of time to get opinions on but I guarantee I'll probably be having at least leans before day 1 ends unless we end up with a flash wagon which I don't recommend.

shea's posting style isn't even a little bit like pooky or n_m, and I get you're saying he's null and hard to read, but you have other null reads that I feel would be a much better comparison here. so your comparison to two players who have a fairly established deliberately cloudy playstyle is reading to me like an excuse to not have to try and get a read on him. thoughts?

[The Bulge]

well he does not consider it lucky - i think he is quite upset he hasn't gotten to be scum yet lol

talk to me about this?

[The Bulge]

This last page and a half of gamma reads really earnest to me.

I agree, but be careful not to lean too hard into his flattery

[The Bulge]

would like a vc before i put a vote down

[The Bulge]

thanks

VOTE: Kasumeat

[The Bulge]

also welcome back shea, good to see you!

[The Bulge]

you think shea is scum for real or just posturing?

I was leaning town on him but his explanation for his SR on me is just so scummy. It hinges entirely on my RVS vote being an attempt to "ramp up a wagon" with 0 people on it and then saying that my SR on Blitzo makes no sense because I'm saying his post is NIA when I'm saying it was either NIA or scummy, so it amounts to a slight SR. I've never played with Shea before but his "read" on me just seems extremely fake which is scummy in my books

Ok but why would scum make a fake read in early day 1? Do you think you are getting shitpushed here?

any push at any stage that scum makes is fake, no?

[The Bulge]

im seeing the "caught for the wrong reasons" thing someone mentioned before in 334

[The Bulge]

well he does not consider it lucky - i think he is quite upset he hasn't gotten to be scum yet lol

talk to me about this?

What would you like to know?

i guess just elaborate on how you came to know that

[The Bulge]

bussing aside obviously

[The Bulge]

do you think it's a shitpush?

[The Bulge]

what is pooky's opinion of the kasu push

[The Bulge]

kasumeat the archaeologist

[The Bulge]

I don't like it. I can see why Shea didn't like Kasu's reaction but it's fairly standard for his meta as town to get engaged in stupid shit-fights.

ok, what do you think of kasu's shitpush on shea?

[The Bulge]

I am inquiring about PookyTheMagicalBear's opinion on the push Kasumeat is making against Thestatusquo.

[The Bulge]

stop being obtuse

[The Bulge]

any push at any stage that scum makes is fake, no?

See this is what I'm talking about when I say I like finding people who think like me

[The Bulge]

fat thumbed

you didn't say much else about it tho

[The Bulge]

If you're going to push me for making short posts just go ahead, I'd still rather do that than not post at all. I'm pretty busy between studies/work where I have little time to post so I have to be concise.

that's not what I said

[The Bulge]

VOTE: OutWorldER along those lines, I just can't get on board with the reasoning there. I mean, he said Blitzo was troublesome to read so that's a wagon and ok, but acknowledging that you believe something is NAI and voting it anyway isn't for me.

I feel like you're contradicting yourself here? Yes, I did say my read on Blitzo was neutral at that time, but that I also felt he was going to troubling to read if we didn't try and figure him out early. So it felt like the most worthy early vote at the point in the game. Could you elaborate what exactly you find troublesome in that logic?

I don't like the idea of voting and wagoning based on an NAI premise. If he was active lurking and posting NAI stuff for a couple of days, then your case for obfuscation in 64 might have had merit instead of being something that you yourself said was minor and a stretch, and I might have been okay with it. If you had some real belief that Blitzo's early posts had a decent chance of actually being AI when forced into an exchange about them then I might have been okay with it. As such, I wasn't a fan of your part on the wagon.

That said, I'm far more comfortable with what I've seen from you since that wagon dissipated, and I'm getting a "I believe you believe it" vibe, so this might just be playstyle issues I'm having that are separate from actual reads.

UNVOTE:

This isn't reading like Noraa's town game thus far (I was in her completed town game that she referenced), but then, she was pretty strongly TRed from the jump by mostly everyone there. I know she gets mega defensive when challenged as scum though, based on reading her scum games from the outside. I have no idea if that's a scum-Noraa trait or always-Noraa trait to get into it like this when called out. (The wall stuff is an "always" trait, she was getting salty at me for posts, and I think I only wrote one the entire game that required scrolling.)

Murder still feels consistent here, he's attacking his reads and working his game from my perspective, still not buying the votes on him. If I were having to pick between the two for a vote Noraa would probably be the pick.

VOTE: Kasu instead though, I hate his defensiveness more than Noraa's.

Bulge is my play here different than Arthropods? I always seem to assume all my town games give off the same vibe but then based on others reactions, it seems they never do...

I don't do meta like that, your play will be different under different circumstances. too early to say. why not engage UneducatedGuesser here instead of me?

I meant for the claim thing. Didnt even read the whole sentence rip.
All I saw was "Pooky is ascetic peacemaker Noraa so role fishing is allowed now"

i know noraa gets paranoid but hmmmm

I can't read Shea aorn. His play style is one of those that I generally struggle to read just like Pooky and Not mafia. These take me a lot of time to get opinions on but I guarantee I'll probably be having at least leans before day 1 ends unless we end up with a flash wagon which I don't recommend.

shea's posting style isn't even a little bit like pooky or n_m, and I get you're saying he's null and hard to read, but you have other null reads that I feel would be a much better comparison here. so your comparison to two players who have a fairly established deliberately cloudy playstyle is reading to me like an excuse to not have to try and get a read on him. thoughts?

uk it lel I get really paranoid about everything and everyone as town. Hm ok so Im not saying his play style is like Pooky and Notmafia's. I'm saying it's just as hard to read. The "Noraa can't read this playstyle" category is a bunch of different playstyles that are all really difficult for me to read. This can range anywhere from complete jester like playstyles to very towny playstyles and any other weird stuff. You can think of it as an excuse to not read shea if u want but that's definitely not it.

fair enough

[The Bulge]

you think shea is scum for real or just posturing?

I was leaning town on him but his explanation for his SR on me is just so scummy. It hinges entirely on my RVS vote being an attempt to "ramp up a wagon" with 0 people on it and then saying that my SR on Blitzo makes no sense because I'm saying his post is NIA when I'm saying it was either NIA or scummy, so it amounts to a slight SR. I've never played with Shea before but his "read" on me just seems extremely fake which is scummy in my books

@Shea/Pooky what stands out to you as genuine and unfakeable by scum in this post or others around it

[The Bulge]

I was leaning town on him but his explanation for his SR on me is just so scummy. It hinges entirely on my RVS vote being an attempt to "ramp up a wagon" with 0 people on it and then saying that my SR on Blitzo makes no sense because I'm saying his post is NIA when I'm saying it was either NIA or scummy, so it amounts to a slight SR. I've never played with Shea before but his "read" on me just seems extremely fake which is scummy in my books

I'm reading genuine anger here - I think if he was caught for wrong reason scum he would've at least been a bit more diplomatic about it - like it feels he really pounded the keyboard in anger here.

how much of this take, would you say, is Tone vs Meta vs Theory, if you had to give me like a pie chart?

[The Bulge]

you think shea is scum for real or just posturing?

I was leaning town on him but his explanation for his SR on me is just so scummy. It hinges entirely on my RVS vote being an attempt to "ramp up a wagon" with 0 people on it and then saying that my SR on Blitzo makes no sense because I'm saying his post is NIA when I'm saying it was either NIA or scummy, so it amounts to a slight SR. I've never played with Shea before but his "read" on me just seems extremely fake which is scummy in my books

@Shea/Pooky what stands out to you as genuine and unfakeable by scum in this post or others around it

I don't think it isnt fakeable I just don't think its faked. I don't see a lot of scum motivation to react like that. And I swear to god if someone says "BUT SHE WIFOM" I will eat donkey poop, because its not because my thinking its town is definitely not a predictable reaction to making it.

I'm not suggesting a wifom play, but are you discounting the possibility of a genuine scum kneejerk reaction? we know kasu hasn't rolled scum before and is apparently an emotional player as town, ie when he is presumably at his most genuine. is that too easy?

[The Bulge]

come the fuck on dude.

is there an implication of panzer!town in this post?

[The Bulge]

I'm not pressing you, just trying to develop my kasu read

[The Bulge]

all I'm saying is for a possible first time scum player who is apparently an emotional poster, you're granting him a lot of credit wrt planning ahead

[The Bulge]

I'm not pressing you, just trying to develop my kasu read

Honestly I don't like this post at all.

What in my post made you think that you needed to reassure me that you weren't pressing me? Why would you do that even if you thought I wanted it?

looking back I read the last line of your 472 too fast and thought you were implying I was trying to trap you into answering a certain way

[The Bulge]

does it help you if I say I think blitzo is town mainly off of their interactions with you and panzer

[The Bulge]

developing thoughts in 479

[The Bulge]

also did you see my question in 471? asking about that post specifically, not so much your general read of him.

[The Bulge]

kasumeat the archaeologist

this is a weird thing to say in response to what kasu just did tbh. Why make such a big deal of it?

I think this is the opposite of making a big deal considering I only said 3 words about it and never came back but ok. I said it cuz I thought it was funny and the posts he randomly dug up didn't make any sense.

does it help you if I say I think blitzo is town mainly off of their interactions with you and panzer

Why? I'm a bit interested in this

not strong but the lite hostility looks like town alt frustration to me

[The Bulge]

Easiest I'll admit to but I'd like you elaborate on least consequential.

least likely to cause any ripples, back you into a discussion you aren't ready to become seriously invested in, or present any hard stances on the most relevant topics of discussion at that time.

[The Bulge]

Shea I'd like to talk about the townreads on you, but first of all what do you make of them?

curious as to why you take this angle rather than asking those who TR him for reasons? the decision seems very intentional.

[The Bulge]

Why was this enough to vote on when so many things were not?

silly question. I only see what I see

"Honestly I really don't understand this whole line of questioning. It seems like in order to respond to me saying "it could be faked I just don't think it is" with "But don't you think it COULD be fake!?" kind of requires willfulness. Yes, it could be fake. I don't think it is because to me it feels genuine."

I dont see how that could be what he's suggesting he misread it as, and EVEN IF THATS TRUE--The meat of my argument is there really isn't town motivation to jump to reassure someone you're not pushing them. Why would you? I've certainly never done it as town.

I already explained myself, do you think I'm lying?

if I need to clarify more, I read "Honestly I really don't understand this whole line of questioning. It seems like in order

for me

to respond

to me

saying "[words...]"" and like I said, understood you thought I was pressuring you. it made me read your tone as defensive, which I thought was strange.

[The Bulge]

I meant it that he doesn't seem to be too interested in picking fights or voting. He seems interested in prodding at things but I would describe his engagement as mostly at the surface level.

that is a pretty good description of my typical early d1 play actually

[The Bulge]

sorry I havent been around, lots going on lately and I've been too anxious to seriously get my head in the game. I am feeling well today and should set aside some time later.

[The Bulge]

gotta run for now but I'm reading up and I really don't like murdercat

Noraa how about you attempt to contribute to the game by explaining your scum read on me?

I don't think the main intent of this post was really to help noraa contribute.

ur telling me that activity determines whether or not they are scum?

Noraa this is why we think you look scummy, this is clearly a misrepresentation of the point

tmi?

[The Bulge]

Why didn't you answer my other questions?

didn't feel like it. my scum radars gone off too many times for each time to be a scum so its not determined who my SRs are rn so I didn't elaborate

Except you explicitly named Outworld?

I want to dig more there but he's slightly absent from the thread

Is this in reference to me or Outworld?

u

MCat already said this, but MCat hasn’t really been absent in any real sense.

VOTE: Noraa
My town vibes on her dried up very fast.

Now everyone starts voting Noraa, guess I'm a trend setter.

I am still going to resist my urge to scum read Nora for everything she says until I read meta though

this is where my gamma/murdercat/?? solve kicks in

[The Bulge]

Pooky has had no real pressure all game and has not really done a lot of solving. He gets some votes and all of a sudden he is giving a lot more. Why don't you like them then? Will you give us more if we all vote you?

Yes I tend to interact with people who vote me because it's a very good way to read whether they actually believe their case on me.

Yes I agree with you. So even you like the votes. Why does panzer dislike them then? They are advancing the game

this is some of the oddest d1 wagon-pushing I have ever seen

VOTE: Pooky

Haven't really liked anything from you all game. My top TRs don't like you and a lot of my SRs do.

ok buddy good talk

This is kind of hypocritical after your last post

his iso has a lot of these kinds of posts. there's no momentum to his conversations, he waits opportunistically for something he can vaguely point out.

[The Bulge]

I'm somewhere in the 30s but i'll be back later

[The Bulge]

Pooky has had no real pressure all game and has not really done a lot of solving. He gets some votes and all of a sudden he is giving a lot more. Why don't you like them then? Will you give us more if we all vote you?

Yes I tend to interact with people who vote me because it's a very good way to read whether they actually believe their case on me.

Yes I agree with you. So even you like the votes. Why does panzer dislike them then? They are advancing the game

this is some of the oddest d1 wagon-pushing I have ever seen

VOTE: Pooky

Haven't really liked anything from you all game. My top TRs don't like you and a lot of my SRs do.

ok buddy good talk

This is kind of hypocritical after your last post

his iso has a lot of these kinds of posts. there's no momentum to his conversations, he waits opportunistically for something he can vaguely point out.

Do you think your own play bites into this same critique?

I think when I'm engaging in the moment I probe from very different angles than mc, but if youre to retroactively look at my iso then this is probably a fair judgment

[The Bulge]

idk how clear that is. I think mc, this game, has been more present than I, so contextually the sniper-style questions stand out more than if they were coming from a lurkfuck like me

[The Bulge]

I do feel like there is a chance that Bulge is setting up a move onto me.

keen observation

[The Bulge]

caught up. still liking mc/gamma/and maybe a sleeper pick like panzer

actually here's a fun little thing: vig is obviously currently trying to decide between nm and panzer if there is one. i think nm would be a missed shot.

[The Bulge]

VOTE: murderct

[The Bulge]

noraa is still town also

[The Bulge]

I'm here if anyone else is rn. I'm a few pages behind but should be here in full tomorrow if the deadline allows

[The Bulge]

I don't think I'm being an asshole or making disparaging comments. I think she has a valid playstyle, it's just one that I feel is anti-town.

Also very rude that you say I'm not playing, shea. Ur bully

I mean, you are.
Soooooo.

As for the noraa wagon - I feel like some of these last few posts on page 47 have been pretty enlightening in terms of the case on noraa.
I also agree with them and was calling her out for some of these things earlier.

How many votes does she have right now?

A coward on an anonymous alt shouldn't be saying shit about decorum

Not sure why you felt the need to protect your ego here but however you do, I guess.

Such disrespect for my scum game in this thread I'm embarrassed, I guess everyone forgot while I was gone.

I'm still not convinced it's Noraa and I do feel like there is a chance that Bulge is setting up a move onto me.

Yeah I was relatively unimpressed by that return as well.

Also as an fyi, I am around but I'm running errands so I'll be peeking into the thread every so often until later tonight.
I can vote noraa, I would also really like pooky to make an appearance before deadline. I don't think I'd be too willing to vote MC right now though.

weird post. feels like only everything after "also as an fyi" was worth posting at all.

[The Bulge]

blitzo's twilight posts are so bad lmao

[The Bulge]

this is my twilight post and it is good.

[The Bulge]

And before I anyone asks, I think Bulge is suspicious for that same reason - that he's doing the same exact thing that I'm getting upset about, and I also think he's one of the people who lurked on that wagon a

bit

too much when it was convenient to do so.

Obviously if MC flips scum here then I will reevaluate that, but I really don't think that's going to happen.

"before anyone asks" needlessly defensive and idk just a weird way to segue into shading me but anyway

you're mistaking my not being here for strategic lurking. not sure what more i can say on that.

[The Bulge]

You had the leading wagons of Pooky and Noraa
Panzer and MCat were attempts to bridge the gap and find a wagon those who were stuck on one side of the main debate could agree on

I think scum tried to direct it so MCat was voted out over Panzer

there are a lot of assumptions being made here where other players could equally apply. What differentiates panzer's wagon from pooky's and noraa's to you?

[The Bulge]

The duppin kill is really weird. I'm somewhat wary that's it an attempt to frame Noraa actually. Duppin wasn't really outspoken about any SR's other than Noraa, but he also was not as active and not really as aggressive as Shea in terms of pushing SR's.

Occam's razor tells me, however, that it was probably scum team compromising on a kill in some way. I think I'll park on VOTE: Noraa for now but if she ever flips green than I want vig (if there is one) to shoot Shea.

while I do agree that my first impression of the duppin kill was a noraa frame... this post is bad. seems way too self-assured and maybe even pre-planned.

pedit uh that's a pretty bad defense as well

[The Bulge]

a blitzo vote here would be in vain but im down to push this first

VOTE: outworld

[The Bulge]

uhhhhhhhhh. If I wanted to kill someone that SRed me, I would've killed Shea. If I wanted to kill someone to make it seem like it wasn't me, I would've killed Bulge.

fwiw i believe this

[The Bulge]

so town should just like, never try to analyse the night-kill, on this site, I guess?

I honestly don't know how else to respond, because this is the first time I've ever ran in to this kind of thinking and it just seems kind of baffling to me.

You can analyze the nightkill. The way you did reads as particularly inside baseball to me. Granted, that's just a feel thing, but I feel it pretty strongly.

I mean, fair about the gut reads, I guess.

I looked at the NK, I asked two questions to myself "why did this happen" and "what did this achieve", which I then gave the answer to. I'm not exactly sure how to respond to these votes but I don't really see scum motivation to push me now so eh.

guess should just let the game continue.

scum taking the easy way out. baffled townie doesn't just walk away from an accusation like that lmao. how does the fact it's a town push mean you feel no need to defend yourself? if we are town you should be helping us to solve, not hiding away? it bothers me almost as much tho that shea let this slide.

[The Bulge]

someone talk me through if im confbiasing there but I'm not only seeing zero town motivation for outworld's actions im seeing a blatant scum mindset on display

[The Bulge]

Can you talk about a single thing in the game besides yourself ffs

this is actually an interesting angle I hadn't considered. I'm not usually one for meta reads like this at all but I'll check it out tomorrow

[The Bulge]

huh I don't remember how conditional my gamma sr was wrt mcat. ill have to iso him tomorrow as well

[The Bulge]

scum taking the easy way out. baffled townie doesn't just walk away from an accusation like that lmao. how does the fact it's a town push mean you feel no need to defend yourself? if we are town you should be helping us to solve, not hiding away? it bothers me almost as much tho that shea let this slide.

point to me where exactly in that post I said I wasn't going to defend myself or "hide away". I said I didn't know how to respond, because it's a bit hard to defend yourself when the main reason I'm being voted is "I feel this is scum play based on arbitrary metrics of how scum play as defined by arcane ritual #76454"

And you clearly have no trouble

"

solving

"

me so I'm not exactly sure what the problem is here.

I'm not claiming it's easy for scum in your position. how is refusing to respond and then openly and deliberately shifting the topic any different from what im saying?

that last sentence is a joke, yea?

[The Bulge]

so town should just like, never try to analyse the night-kill, on this site, I guess?

I honestly don't know how else to respond, because this is the first time I've ever ran in to this kind of thinking and it just seems kind of baffling to me.

You can analyze the nightkill. The way you did reads as particularly inside baseball to me. Granted, that's just a feel thing, but I feel it pretty strongly.

I mean, fair about the gut reads, I guess.

I looked at the NK, I asked two questions to myself "why did this happen" and "what did this achieve", which I then gave the answer to. I'm not exactly sure how to respond to these votes but I don't really see scum motivation to push me now so eh.

guess should just let the game continue.

scum taking the easy way out. baffled townie doesn't just walk away from an accusation like that lmao. how does the fact it's a town push mean you feel no need to defend yourself? if we are town you should be helping us to solve, not hiding away? it bothers me almost as much tho that shea let this slide.

How am I letting it slide? I'm still voting it?

you've been playing pretty aggressively this game. you haven't hesitated to call out any post that pings you from any player. I would expect you even more then to pursue such an obvious copout defense if it's the player youre actively voting. unless you disagree with my assessment of outworld's reaction?

[The Bulge]

if the player I think is scum says "i got nothing", I sink my claws in. that's when you push, not after theyve had time to recuperate

that is a fair point i suppose

[The Bulge]

scum taking the easy way out. baffled townie doesn't just walk away from an accusation like that lmao. how does the fact it's a town push mean you feel no need to defend yourself? if we are town you should be helping us to solve, not hiding away? it bothers me almost as much tho that shea let this slide.

point to me where exactly in that post I said I wasn't going to defend myself or "hide away". I said I didn't know how to respond, because it's a bit hard to defend yourself when the main reason I'm being voted is "I feel this is scum play based on arbitrary metrics of how scum play as defined by arcane ritual #76454"

And you clearly have no trouble

"

solving

"

me so I'm not exactly sure what the problem is here.

I'm not claiming it's easy for scum in your position. how is refusing to respond and then openly and deliberately shifting the topic any different from what im saying?

that last sentence is a joke, yea?

yes, the last sentence is a joke.

And how did I refuse to respond? I said I don't know how to respond and it'd probably be better for me to just let the game continue at that point. I don't see how you get "refusal to respond" out of that. Same thing for shifting the subject.

ok looking back, refusing to respond is not the best way of putting it. it's more that you replied in a very narrow manner that led directly down the path of least resistance. I don't know what to say -> this is probably a town push -> let this just blow over.

[The Bulge]

I agree they've been good but they dont feel like guesser's town game.

Why? How are they good but not townie for him?

I played one game with guesser as town and town!guesser didnt sus everyone or have walls as long as the ones here. Guesser was also more present and the tone was less .... idk passive?

There are so so so many differences between two games, and so many both in-game and off-site reasons for a player's posting to be different besides just "they're alignment must be different". if I tweet something today and then tweet something else in a month that doesn't match that precise tone, is there something wrong with me? have I been bodysnatched? this is not a good meta read and certainly shouldn't be a reason to disregard that entire post.

[The Bulge]

Not only is that an extremely poor take on UG's reasons for scumreading you, but he also indicated that he read more of your games than just the one you played together.

[The Bulge]

That's no what I'm talking about. What about his posts strikes you as scummy besides your perception of tone?

I don't remember ever doing that?

[The Bulge]

If you don't know why I'm voting for Gamma then I just don't think you're reading the game, I explained my vote in detail already.

Anyway, my read on you is not the topic of discussion here, your read on me is the topic of discussion, we're here because you engaged with me, not the other way around.

Have you got an answer to Bulge's question yet, or nah?

I made it very clear why I SR you.
ur tone is off.
ur play style is different.
your tunneling(which I'm fairly certain is AI for u)
your vote's not matching ur focus(ur votes on gamma yet u continue to tunnel me and not expand on ur case on gamma)
I did not engage you. I have no interest in talking to someone that's just going to tunnel me rn. You engaged me.

This is still not an answer to my question.

[The Bulge]

er I should clarify actually. asking specifically about 1732 and 1744

[The Bulge]

What feels like scum to you in those posts

[The Bulge]

well its pretty clear that guesser isnt distributing his attention evenly at all. He hyper focuses on a few players and had one sentence reads for the rest. I'm sorry but like .... uh

is it supposed to be obvious what's wrong with those posts? that's what the language you are using here tells me

[The Bulge]

VOTE: noraa

[The Bulge]

new question noraa. what do you like about those ug posts

[The Bulge]

Can I get an explanation? I'm kind of following your progression but its spread out over so many posts.

very soon, but if you're anxious to know it's pretty recent in her iso

[The Bulge]

Ur progression this game has been weird. U TRed me and always offered one sentence explanations and now you SR me and offer no explanation. I can't tell if this is AI but its something to note for future games with you.

you should focus on figuring out my alignment this game first, unless you already know it from your role PM

[The Bulge]

ur saying I have to tell you something I like about it?

??? I didnt think that would be difficult? its a good post

[The Bulge]

I did, and I'm curious if those are mainly new thoughts since i asked or if you were cherrypicking before and refusing to share what you liked about ug's reads

[The Bulge]

so you had all those thoughts concurrently with your stance that it was a scum readslist?

[The Bulge]

I agree they've been good but they dont feel like guesser's town game.

Actually, this post pretty well implies you like the content of 1744 but only find it shady for meta reasons,

and

that you concede it is not an obviously scummy post.

it's not exactly the hook-line-and-sinker I was hoping for so yea I'll have to let that one marinate for a bit. but I'm glad we talked.

[The Bulge]

I agree they've been good but they dont feel like guesser's town game.

I agree they've been good but they dont feel like guesser's town game.

Why? How are they good but not townie for him?

I played one game with guesser as town and town!guesser didnt sus everyone or have walls as long as the ones here. Guesser was also more present and the tone was less .... idk passive?

perhaps but I'm not feeling a lot of town!guesser vibes...
then again in the last game I was in with guesser, I jailed guesser cuz I thought they were scum but they were actually vt :/

But also Bulge, the majority of Guesser's SRs on me are meta related and just saying I'm not seeming as town as I did in the last game. Isn't that the same?

No the first few of his major reads had me as scum bc of meta reasons and guesser has done a total of like 4 of those so I think its absolutely fair to say that.

[The Bulge]

curious that you didnt shift into a full ug-scum push until both he and I were on your case about your read on him.

[The Bulge]

If you don't know why I'm voting for Gamma then I just don't think you're reading the game, I explained my vote in detail already.

Anyway, my read on you is not the topic of discussion here, your read on me is the topic of discussion, we're here because you engaged with me, not the other way around.

Have you got an answer to Bulge's question yet, or nah?

I made it very clear why I SR you.
ur tone is off.
ur play style is different.
your tunneling(which I'm fairly certain is AI for u)
your vote's not matching ur focus(ur votes on gamma yet u continue to tunnel me and not expand on ur case on gamma)

I did not engage you. I have no interest in talking to someone that's just going to tunnel me rn. You engaged me.

this is not something you say to someone you are scumreading. especially with the timing of where that scumread sprang up.

[The Bulge]

but anyways I had never said there was anything wrong with these posts specifically.

I agree they've been good but

they

dont feel like guesser's town game.

the second 'they' is important here

[The Bulge]

is that really the basis for the vote?

i mean it's not anything I'd vote a TR for

[The Bulge]

1793 directly prompted my vote, but 1747 is what i mentioned to you earlier

and yea I do want to talk to you more directly about noraa and outworld but i need to parse some first

[The Bulge]

At what point do we decide what N_M is doing in this game is outside the bounds of the rules of mafia?

Like real talk.

I will concede that it's a major issue but unless we commit to taking both him and panzer out back to back they'll both be here at lylo, and as much as I want to believe it I feel it's unlikely both of them are mafia.

Can I get an explanation? I'm kind of following your progression but its spread out over so many posts.

very soon, but if you're anxious to know it's pretty recent in her iso

Hiding your vote reasoning after voting seems so...Weird.
Not sure what's going on here tbh but I don't like it.

Gamma, Noraa, Pooky, Blitz is what guesser comes down to.
ironically this is the group of most strongly TRed people from day 1. Almost everyone has expressed concern with his entire pool and I don't think its original to have the exact same pool and also knowing that I'm town basically means this pool isnt right cuz the chances of {Gamma, Pooky, Blitz}, the three most SRed players besides me all being scum is highly unlikely :/

Alright, let's start sorting then shall we? Who are your most likely scum/town in that pile of 4?
Let's start there - I feel like you're getting bogged down in defense too much and I'd really like more of your opinions please. I don't think you have a vote down yet but I feel like you should have a strong idea where to place it.

1793 directly prompted my vote, but 1747 is what i mentioned to you earlier

and yea I do want to talk to you more directly about noraa and outworld but i need to parse some first

This seems nitpicky and bad.

attack my playstyle more. why aren't you engaging me directly?

[The Bulge]

Theres something that doesn't really sit right with me about bulges progression on Nora and It's nagging on me.

do you mean throughout the game or just this day phase? or just from start to finish of my interaction with her last night?

[The Bulge]

*people talking about the duppin kill being meant to set up noraa

That is a much more reasonable way for a human being to convey that thought.

lol i should do this more often

[The Bulge]

if anyone wants clarification on my fishing trip I can explain again

or if there are any specific questions that's probably better unless someone is online rn

[The Bulge]

I didn't parse yet like I said I would tho

[The Bulge]

Shea was definitely a stronger proponent against her which would have made it easier to press Noraa for

the [duppin] kill implicates [Noraa] in a way that uniquely benefits her in a way that does not qualify for any other player.

how can these statements both be true?

Now, this isn't saying I'm 100% certain Noraa is scum, but I'm damn confident in it at this point.

This slot needs to be resolved today, by vote or some other factor.

why are you pussyfooting around this vote after making an entire "heavy weapon"-grade post about it?

[The Bulge]

I don't press on every thing I take away from a post.

but yea I wasn't thinking of the ~forbidden meta~ point when I got down to that last part but that is actually pretty notable.

[The Bulge]

UNVOTE: yuck

[The Bulge]

Noraa your wordvomit after you called me out for baiting you sounds a lot more like you caught yourself than me.

[The Bulge]

UNVOTE: yuck

Noraa your wordvomit after you called me out for baiting you sounds a lot more like you caught yourself than me.

these two posts are back to back yet tell me two vastly different things

saw the vc. did not like what I saw.

[The Bulge]

Blitzo I'm not sure what you're talking about

[The Bulge]

I.........

I was just reading up and was about to say I like gamma's case with the whole timing thing, and then uh

Oh. OH. Yeah, that checks out. And I understand why you were saying you could confirm an alignment, you basically just wanted to get NKed. I know I said a claim wouldn’t impact my thinking but that definitely falls into that set of roles that made sense for slightly twining someone but not enough to not prefer voting them.
VOTE: Blitzo
Since a lot of people have expressed interest in this and it’s almost deadline I’ll vote here but I can also vote OWER

Trying to seek a compromise and Blitzo, while seemingly popular, is not likely to be the favorable vote

????????

gamma?

[The Bulge]

Well what I would say is I believe this neighborhood is real. The possibility of two scums doing this to bus one and make one basically conftown afterwards is there but not likely.
If blitz flips red, I would be inclined to believe gamma is green bc this 1)doesn't feel like scum theatre and 2)is highly unlikely scum theatre anyways
If blitz flips green, I wouldn't know what to think

you don't have opinions of gamma independent of blitzo's alignment?

[The Bulge]

whatever I still trust it even if gamma has seemingly forgotten[?]

VOTE: blitzo

i'll go either way but don't want to leave noraa at e1 unattended

[The Bulge]

Its mainly the way hes been interacting with the game which seems off to me.

I'm curious about this, if I'm allowed to be.

[The Bulge]

i mean besides just general activity levels and lack of content

because like

yea

[The Bulge]

I also think we need to look into eliminating one of the more background-y players today.

I don't think it makes sense to limit our options today. We need to eliminate scum or its limlo tomorrow

I'm a quarter-way through a reread. I have a hypoteam in mind that I'll share later

[The Bulge]

agreed

[The Bulge]

with actions for both nights

[The Bulge]

nah

VOTE: outworld

[The Bulge]

looking back im mad i ever dropped my outworld sr lmao

also may as well spoil this now even tho im not done reading i think shea is his partner. it explains why that whole interaction about the nk analysis blew over in such a weird way.

[The Bulge]

dropped my outworld sr

my push, rather. i never stopped scumreading him.

idk why im jumping the gun and showing my cards here but I figure what's the rush in powering thru today with just 1 caught scum

[The Bulge]

more later im on mobile rn and trying to finish reading. but remember when shea called outworld out for his nka, outworld gave a blatant copout answer and shea let him go without a second thought. i called him on that and i dont remember exactly where it went from there atm but ill find links when i can

[The Bulge]

The duppin kill is really weird. I'm somewhat wary that's it an attempt to frame Noraa actually. Duppin wasn't really outspoken about any SR's other than Noraa, but he also was not as active and not really as aggressive as Shea in terms of pushing SR's.

Occam's razor tells me, however, that it was probably scum team compromising on a kill in some way. I think I'll park on VOTE: Noraa for now but if she ever flips green than I want vig (if there is one) to shoot Shea.

That last post by outworldER is incredibly scummy. Trying to direct a pr which we don't even know we have is frequently done by scum. Speculating on motivation for scum kills is frequently a scum slip also.

Still think noraa is scum but I want to push on this a little bit VOTE: outworldER

That last post by outworldER is incredibly scummy. Trying to direct a pr which we don't even know we have is frequently done by scum. Speculating on motivation for scum kills is frequently a scum slip also.

Still think noraa is scum but I want to push on this a little bit VOTE: outworldER

I mean, yeah, frequently done by scum but that doesn't equal scum motivated automatically.

I don't see how the deductions made have scum motivation behind them. Perhaps you could elaborate a bit more?

That last post by outworldER is incredibly scummy. Trying to direct a pr which we don't even know we have is frequently done by scum. Speculating on motivation for scum kills is frequently a scum slip also.

Still think noraa is scum but I want to push on this a little bit VOTE: outworldER

I mean, yeah, frequently done by scum but that doesn't equal scum motivated automatically.

I don't see how the deductions made have scum motivation behind them. Perhaps you could elaborate a bit more?

Because of the deficit of information. Scum have more information than town so frequently they say more about nk than town do. Specifically the phrasing "seems like a compromise kill" doesn't sound like something I have ever seen town say. It speaks as if you have information about why the kill was made that town does not. It assumes a scum worldview which you can't possibly know about as town.

so town should just like, never try to analyse the night-kill, on this site, I guess?

I honestly don't know how else to respond, because this is the first time I've ever ran in to this kind of thinking and it just seems kind of baffling to me.

You can analyze the nightkill. The way you did reads as particularly inside baseball to me. Granted, that's just a feel thing, but I feel it pretty strongly.

You can analyze the nightkill. The way you did reads as particularly inside baseball to me. Granted, that's just a feel thing, but I feel it pretty strongly.

I mean, fair about the gut reads, I guess.

I looked at the NK, I asked two questions to myself "why did this happen" and "what did this achieve", which I then gave the answer to. I'm not exactly sure how to respond to these votes but I don't really see scum motivation to push me now so eh.

guess should just let the game continue.

his claim doesnt line up with anything he softed or the way he played EoD or how he has been playing the whole game or how he is playing now having claimed, and is literally the easiest thing scum under pressure can think to claim here. im shocked you're giving it any credit at all

[The Bulge]

those are links that i q+'d yes

i gave up quoting on mobile when i realized what came after needed more context and effort but yea theres the gist of the incident im talking about lol

[The Bulge]

to clarify, the quotes were accidental and don't have anything to do with what i said in that post but are very much relevant to what i said before

back to reading

[The Bulge]

actually while we're here i should note that shea did indeed "just let the game continue" and moved onto other things until I called him out in 1718.

[The Bulge]

that's not the only thing I've seen wrt sheascum, just what's coming to mind right now seeing your posts

[The Bulge]

are either of you reading?? outworld is scum because

that is the most obvious scumclaim I have ever seen

, not because he did nka.

[The Bulge]

Bulge who's your third right now?

tbh when I said that I had you in mind, but I'm less sure of my third pick now after reading more and especially after today's events. probably going to start reading again with outworld's claim in mind

[The Bulge]

I completely misinterpreted what Innocent Child is.
Hang on a second I'm gonna stop posting until I figure out wtf I'm talking about.

lol I assume you were thinking like a Day 4 Treestump or something?

[The Bulge]

Bulge who's your third right now?

tbh when I said that I had you in mind, but I'm less sure of my third pick now after reading more and especially after today's events. probably going to start reading again with outworld's claim in mind

"tbh I was thinking of you but now that you're interested in my theories I'm gunna try to pocket you instead considering literally nothing had changed between formulating the list of 3 and now when I'm answering this question lololol"

????

I also think we need to look into eliminating one of the more background-y players today.

I don't think it makes sense to limit our options today. We need to eliminate scum or its limlo tomorrow

I'm a quarter-way through a reread. I have a hypoteam in mind that I'll share later

looking back im mad i ever dropped my outworld sr lmao

also may as well spoil this now even tho im not done reading i think shea is his partner. it explains why that whole interaction about the nk analysis blew over in such a weird way.

there are 8 hours between these posts, during which time I read a good portion of the game and outworld scumclaimed.

[The Bulge]

1) Mafia is in a great position in this game and it doesn't make a lot of sense for them to pull a big fake claim gambit. Maybe they know something we don't and I'm not trying to outguess the mod but it doesn't seem like the kind of play scum would make right now. It is, as someone pointed out, the kind of play that would make if they felt they needed to take risks in order to win the game. Maybe they do think that because a lot of people were suspicious of them yesterday so they're feeling more panicked than I would feel in a game which had started with two miselims.

to be clear I'm not saying this is some kind of big brain gambit. I think you want to distance from this play as much as you can.

why didn't you talk about your thoughts on the claim itself in your first few posts? you said you would vote him today before mentioning anything about the claim, then you asked about why he was asked to claim and didn't mention it again until gamma did.

[The Bulge]

Blitzo stuff is...strange but I'm not sure if it can actually be extrapolated in a way the hints to Alignment. The most it could be is very minor scumlean since you can argue their abstinence from voting is obfuscating information but that's quite a stretch.

Either way, if he's going to be troublesome to read, I'd rather have a wagon on him right now.

VOTE: Blitzo

Don't love this post even a little bit.

There's a whole bunch of stuff that happened wrt blitzo with murdercat and myself being involved and kasu voting for them, and you just ignored it completely because "blitzo is going to be troublesome to read?

Why not read the stuff that already exists to read instead of just glossing it over to vote for something you said is non-alignment indicative?

You answered your own question. I said it's not-alignment indicative, but that this weirdness may make him troublesome to read, and that's why I want pressure on him.

I've already read into the stuff and those were my conclusions. I didn't ignore it.

Then share with the class. You didn't talk about it at all so as far as we can tell you're ignoring them.

The only scumpings I get from him are his abstinence to voting, which is very minor. His reaction to Kasu's vote is weird but there's no way to say either way what it means. Even if it was an old player pretending to be a noob, it could just be a weird way of prodding reaction from Kasu.

I meant your thoughts on me murdercat and kasu

Ah, I've been misunderstanding you all this time.
Kasu hasn't posted enough for me to have any thoughts on him.
You ask good questions but I'd like to see you use your vote more before I try to make a proper read. Other than that most of your posts are meta I don't know about or Jokes.
Murdercat gives me gut feelings of scum from the way he dismissed the growing wagon on him but I'll admit that's weak, which is part of the reason I'm not voting him. I'd like a proper wagon on him sometime, but like I said, I'd rather have a wagon somebody who will be troublesome to read so we can figure them out early.

how do you just ignore this post? exactly like the other interaction, you slam the brakes on outworld the second he makes a blatantly scummy post. your pressure on him is always tempered and when he still manages to flail you back off of the theatre. I don't care if your vote is on him or not, I can put a vote down on whomever I want. it's where your energy lies. I think you feel obligated to call out every scummy-looking post you see this game. whether you're scum or town you should be pressing further when the argument is this weak, unless the weak argument comes from your hopeless partner and you don't want to further expose. why else would you call him out in the first place if not to illicit discussion, maybe in hopes of further developing your case or exposing a "slip"?

here are shea's next few posts afterwards. I encourage you all to click the links and read them in context and with timestamps.

are you an alt/hydra?

unless rules have changed hydras arent allowed in normal games.

How so?

This looks like fake question to me because the implication was obvious

Don't like this post either.

I don't think blitzos question was "what do you think the implication of me saying this is" but rather "what do you think in that post is weird."

Which seems like a totally reasonable thing for blitzo to wonder about you voting him and saying the post was weird without further explanation.

We didn't really talk about this after you understood what I was saying, do you agree that "How so" looks weird?

I made a post about what I found weird in their post. TBH the "how so?" doesn't ring weird to me compared to the rest.

FWIW if you're looking to pocket me I'll accept bribes in the form of nice whiskey.

I can't quite put my finger on it but I don't like much of what murdercat has posted over the last page or so.

Bulge's entrance feels pretty town to me.

I'm still having trouble making heads or tails of blitzo. Like, they just quoted a post where I literally said "you're doing a thing that I literally only see extremely new players do" with the question "but what did I do to make you think I was new" or whatever and its just such a weird response.

Still dont love GEs interactions with me too much either.

Nothing super crazy but some minor scum pings.

I wish pooky would do anything of consequence.

no mention at all of outworld here?

[The Bulge]

I actually think that scum on average put more effort into making their posts logical and consistent than town do because they're actively crafting them to deceive whereas I find town tend to have more inconsistencies on average because they're just saying things they think as they occur to them.

Not to say that scum cant be inconsistent but given that scum have a specific narrative they're trying to create and town don't I tend to think that small little inconsistencies and lapses in logic are slight town tells to me.

But I'm gunna shut up about this because its just OOG theory and not particularly useful.

let's talk more about this actually.

[The Bulge]

Shea's push onto Bulge is interesting. I'm not sure if I'm entirely behind the logic there but I think it is a town-motivated push. I'm having trouble expressing exactly why I feel this way, however. I'll come back to it when I feel I can (and it will also give some time for this interaction to develop)

you should come back to this now

[The Bulge]

third partner is probably panzer or gamma i think but I'll need to read both of them individually first and that can wait

[The Bulge]

blatantly scummy post

eh, looking at this again I was reading the exchange confbiased from foreknowledge of outworld's alignment. 'surface-level scummy' is better. or like 'actionably scummy'.

[The Bulge]

oooo i can feel the tunnel forming. but I feel good about it

[The Bulge]

lol ok dude.

I'd respond to that but there's really nothing to respond to.

here I'll make it real easy for ya

why did you misrep the situation in 2355?
what are your immediate thoughts on the validity of outworld's claim?
why did you gloss over your entire early interaction with outworld in 135?
how is it that you think certain inconsistencies with my theory are the reason it is a scummy attack, when you said yourself in 144 that inconsistencies are often a towntell?

[The Bulge]

Bulge is barely being coherent and posts like 2405 and 2406 read like the insane ramblings of a madman. I agree with Shea in that I just...can't respond to that. There's not really anything to respond to.

That said:

vote nm

We gotta do it at some point and tonight is a better spot than tomorrow.

This post is incredibly garbage. You've had an entire 2 days before this (and previous days you've given SR's, including myself and Gamma) and now your shifting to a policy elim on D3? Combined with your Noraa vote on D2 I'm pretty convinced your one of the scum trying to coast by.

VOTE: Panzerjager

LMFAO just both giving up that quick eh

2408 is pretty fucking direct. try harder.

[The Bulge]

"your questions/angles are weird so I'm not going to answer them but I will put energy specifically into discrediting you" is a scum reaction almost 100% of the time in my personal experience.

[The Bulge]

I'm a little disappointed I thought the hard part would come after figuring out the team hahahahahah

come on. play the game. humour me at the very least if you are indeed town.

[The Bulge]

nope. why was it a town-motivated push?

[The Bulge]

explain that. you said you would come back to it. now is the time.

[The Bulge]

anyone who still believes the ic claim.....i don't know what to tell you.

[The Bulge]

1. you said nothing had happened between my posts
2. uh yea you have said a lot about it and I still don't know what your opinion of it is, which is the problem I'm having. what was your gut reaction to the claim and why didn't you comment on it in your first five posts today?
3. curious as to why the interaction didn't make any sort of impression on you then.
4. 2357 and 2366 heavily imply you find my inconsistency itself scummy.

[The Bulge]

"your questions/angles are weird so I'm not going to answer them but I will put energy specifically into discrediting you" is a scum reaction almost 100% of the time in my personal experience.

I'm not commenting on this whole conversation but this is just definitely not true in my experience. Town and scum in practice react to being attacked for reasons they find stupid in pretty similar ways in my experience.

in a vacuum for sure, nothing is black and white scum/town behaviour imo. but the second criteria of repeatedly discrediting me under the guise of ignoring me is an important factor.

[The Bulge]

Ok but context is important too. this is not the first time outworld has brushed off direct accusations and within the same post diverted attention to another part of the game.

[The Bulge]

@Bulge - do you have an actual case on tsq or outworld?

I really don't need to case outworld and I am absolutely baffled rn that anyone wants to elim outside of a claimed scum slot today.

shea iso read is ongoing I've been pretty busy.

what do you mean by case?

[The Bulge]

1. stop deflecting. obviously that's the inconsistency I was talking about in the first place. I said as much in my first reply to you today, and my question was literally why did you say that if it wasn't true.
2/3. preposterous, patently absurd, makes no fucking sense. when scum is caught for what they deem the wrong reasons, I guess you're right in that there's really nothing to respond to.
4. fair, but I think it was your kneejerk reaction to someone calling the correct team for silly reasons. again there's not a lot of great ways to defend something like that, hence why you contradicted your OOG post from earlier.

[The Bulge]

re:outworld, I'm not talking about optimal play or what x would reasonably do in y situation. I'm clearly not implying he is playing optimally or within his partners' wishes.

[The Bulge]

the pocketing point can still stand I don't have a problem with it. I do have a problem with you misconstruing facts to make your imitation of me seem more accurate.

gotta go for now

[The Bulge]

nope. why was it a town-motivated push?

It felt like a townie genuinely noticing weird shit and felt like the kind of thing I might've focused on, mainly with the part of "taking the steam out of the Blitzo wagon", had I been perceptive to the same things.

Why didn't you say this originally?

re:outworld, I'm not talking about optimal play or what x would reasonably do in y situation. I'm clearly not implying he is playing optimally or within his partners' wishes.

this narrative that i'm going against going against a scumteam also makes zero fucking sense because if that were the case

you would not be the only one voting me

.

that's not true. all your partners have to do is state they think your claim is plausible. which is what everyone but me is doing. the

correct

way to deal with a claimed Day X IC is to leave them alive. it is incredibly easy for your partners to blend in here.

@TSQ, Gamma, you guys want to put a vote down on somebody? We're already a few days into the deadline and I'd like to start consolidating votes on

somebody

even if that somebody has to be me.

HOW THE FUCK IS THIS AN IC POST
is anyone reading this game holy fuck

[The Bulge]

I wasn't paying that much attention to your every move. It's possible I'm mistaken but without going back and rereading I think your claim was like "some time had passed and I read some more" which I don't buy as much of a change.

My gut is that I don't know what to do with the claim because it doesn't make much sense. If you're asking if I thought a mod would put that role in a game I wouldn't myself but outguessing the mod is pretty stupid.

by far the most notable is that outworld claimed between those posts.

[The Bulge]

If their role wasn’t useful
IC seems useful though, no?

no that's not it.

from the POV of someone who can supposedly conftown tomorrow, it should be absolutely absurd to consider eliminating them.

[The Bulge]

not at all. you're saying that if he is town he should be fighting to preserve a PR for the greater good of the town. I'm saying if he is town he should be incredulous towards anyone suggesting to eliminate him today, not inviting the town to do what they want. again I'm not talking about optimal play I'm saying there is no universe where outworld's current behaviour lines up with an ic role pm, no matter how well or poorly you think he is playing.

[The Bulge]

nope. why was it a town-motivated push?

It felt like a townie genuinely noticing weird shit and felt like the kind of thing I might've focused on, mainly with the part of "taking the steam out of the Blitzo wagon", had I been perceptive to the same things.

Why didn't you say this originally?

re:outworld, I'm not talking about optimal play or what x would reasonably do in y situation. I'm clearly not implying he is playing optimally or within his partners' wishes.

this narrative that i'm going against going against a scumteam also makes zero fucking sense because if that were the case

you would not be the only one voting me

.

that's not true. all your partners have to do is state they think your claim is plausible. which is what everyone but me is doing. the

correct

way to deal with a claimed Day X IC is to leave them alive. it is incredibly easy for your partners to blend in here.

1) because I was not prompted about it originally.

2) so then why the fuck are you trying to elim me today? We are not in MeLo right now, I get confirmed as either alignment tomorrow (and coincidentally if I was scum voting me off tomorrow solves the MeLo problem easily). you could be using this to press your other SR's and potentially eliminate one of my

"

partners

"

and yet you are insistent on killing me today. The only possible reasons I can see for this are:

A) You are incredibly ignorant and don't realize how stupid I would have to be for this situation to happen as scum
B) You think I'm some sort of scum PR that could provide info such as RC
C) You are scum yourself trying to push a powerful town PR out of the way during day phase...for some reason.

B and C are both stupid so I'll just go with A.

But you said you couldnt put into words why you felt shea was town. if your reasoning is as simple as what youve now stated, why couldnt you say that outright?

surely you mean to say you will be confirmed as town tomorrow, not as "either alignment"?

how is B stupid lmao that's literally why I would rather vote you out now than wait until tomorrow. explain yourself you don't get to

do people not scumread ad hom anymore? this is getting exhausting

[The Bulge]

I still fail to see how waiting until tomorrow on OWER hurts things (except one idea I don't wanna mention yet)

what are you waiting for before mentioning the other possibility?

[The Bulge]

We do if we elim town today instead

not_mafia with the single most gamestate-aware post this entire day phase. why the fuck would we risk miseliminating today by guessing and choosing when we have a guaranteed scum flip

[The Bulge]

I had to re-examine because I legitimately forgot Kasu was still in this game but I would dare to say that yeah, the Pooky wagon was comprised of town, helped by the fact that Panzer made a fairly weak defense of Pooky in 824 and obviously the fact that MC flipped Green.

why would kasu still being alive affect your opinion of whether pooky's wagon was all-town? if you thought he was dead and flipped town, why would his being alive make you have to re-examine? this is tmi on kasu's alignment

[The Bulge]

anyone who still believes the ic claim.....i don't know what to tell you.

It's not just about believing the claim. I think it's sketchy as hell. And I agree 1000% with Shea's 2557. But from a pure game theory point you have to be so fucking certain that Blitzo is scum here to yeet him because of how incredibly bad it is if the claim is legit. Not to mention Shea's points about it being a very strange spot for scum!OW to make a claim that 100% gets yeeted tomorrow if it's fake.

yea my posting probably makes more sense if you keep in mind I'm considering the odds of outworld's claim being true to be an absolute 0%.

[The Bulge]

im sorry but i feel like I have to do this because people are not reading scum's posts and that is a huge problem

I have to be honest that I've just kind of lost interest in the game. I've considered replacing out but ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, I'd rather just die tbh even though I should probably give more of a shit considering my role

One of {Me, Noraa, Gamma} definitely dies today unless something major happens.

why does something major have to happen? wouldnt you just have to claim if it came to you? unless you hadnt formulated the fakeclaim yet at this point

You've had an entire 2 days before this (and previous days you've given SR's, including myself and Gamma) and now your shifting to a policy elim on D3?

why is it weird to shift off you given your claim?

We're already a few days into the deadline and I'd like to start consolidating votes on somebody even if that somebody has to be me.

I get confirmed as either alignment tomorrow

questions are rhetorical. please kill outworld today

[The Bulge]

I still fail to see how waiting until tomorrow on OWER hurts things (except one idea I don't wanna mention yet)

what are you waiting for before mentioning the other possibility?

The only way I see myself bringing it up is if a massclaim happens today.

i was implying you should share now. why are you expecting a mass claim today? do you think there are more town roles?

[The Bulge]

explain yourself you don't get to

ebwop

you dont get to just bring up 3 options and immediately dismiss 2 as "stupid" lmao that's not how flowcharting works

[The Bulge]

if there is still significant town power why the fuck would we massclaim today with zero dead scum

[The Bulge]

we have a dubious next-day-IC claim and no other consensus rn. invests would have claimed guilties long ago.

[The Bulge]

I don't see the point in continuing this discussion but I highly doubt there will be any other claims today outside of where the wagons go.

[The Bulge]

youre coming off weirdly defensive. I was talking about not wanting to speculate on existing prs in thread.

[The Bulge]

do you often use meta anecdotes completely irrelevant to the playerlist

[The Bulge]

B is stupid because if I was Mafia Rolecop or Tracker or whatever I would've just claimed Tracker, Role Cop, etc, and posted night actions and not claimed this.

you are still failing to comprehend just how ridiculous and the sheer amount of stupidity that would've had to be in the entire scumteam in order for me to be scum in this situation

this entire fucking debacle is ridiculous.


because he didn't shift off just me? He had SR's on other people? Including Gamma? And now he's going for a policy elim instead of pushing either of those. please stop being illiterate.


you are already risking (and currently pushing) a mislim onto town with this. And you still failed to respond to the reasons that MULTIPLE people have given you as to why eliminating me today is an awful fucking idea, including but not limited to: you are wasting an entire day for something that can be confirmed tomorrow. you are wasting an entire day rushing an elim when you could be using it to scumhunt my (again)

"

partners

"

. the fact that this claim makes literally zero sense for scum in my position.

no, targets chosen by town vs scum would be wildly different and not necessarily safe to claim. this is the simplest way of gaining 1 extra night action.

why does it look like youre baiting me into dropping all reasoning and calling you stupid? i dont argue on your level.

[The Bulge]

if there is still significant town power why the fuck would we massclaim today with zero dead scum

It's bulge, nm, and blitzo. I think the neighborhood is legitimate for reasons y'all will find illegitimate, and along with gamma's recent play being p clean. I'm finishing up a research paper that is due Friday so that's why I've been super inactive. There's no reason to yeet outworld here, because their claim only is scummy if you think scum can shoot twice tonight, otherwise it's absurd. Uh, yeah shower paper sleep bye.

this is your first time mentioning me. what's up? why did you quote that post?

[The Bulge]

bulge why do you want to elim someone who will either be killed tonight or will be conftown or a liar tomorrow?

honest question. Because it seems completely stupid to me, no offense.

Like even if you were 99.9% certain that they're lying what is the downside? It still seems better to wait. It's free. What is the downside? I'm struggling to see it here and the weird insistence that the town should preemtively vote off someone that will be automatically sorted if they don't is absurd to me.

that's ok.

[The Bulge]

let me be clear; if I were a 2-shot dayvig I would have used my last shot immediately after 2445. the first shot would have been immediately after the claim.

[The Bulge]

I've explained myself and obviously it's not a wagon the town is interested in despite the constant scumslips

[The Bulge]

Because the bulge is scum, mostly.

I was starting to wonder

[The Bulge]

night actions. if there's a logical reason behind that claim then that has to be it. otherwise it is just a bad fakeclaim.

[The Bulge]

was it a sacrifice though? first few posts toDay plus how the wagons ended yesterDay suggest outworld was coming into today under heat. and pressure always looks worse than it is from the pov of the scum under pressure.

I don't think an extra Rolecop result would be out of the question as a reason here. or if scum thinks for some reason that they'll need a RB tonight?

[The Bulge]

why is bad scum who got nervous and didnt wait for his partners a stretch?

why is scum invest results a stretch?

[The Bulge]

Here's what I think is going on:

re:outworld, I'm not talking about optimal play or what x would reasonably do in y situation. I'm clearly not implying he is playing optimally or within his partners' wishes.

I think this is borderline a scum slip. I think outworldER is likely scum. I think you are upset with his play and you are trying desperately to bus him because you want the town credit for that. I think the sum total of your play this game has been taking vague pot shots at people and then not actually pressuring them when they don't stick with the town. The original thrust of your post today was trying to force the wagon onto me instead of outworldER. Oh, sure, you were voting outworldER, but the majority of your analysis and posts were on me being scum. Now that its clear no one is biting we're back to just aggressively pushing outworldER despite the fact that it doesn't make any sense to kill an IC claim that will resolve itself tomorrow to do so.

As justification for that you have, what? A vague insinuation that they could be trying to get another role cop and the claim that somehow outworldER was the likely elim today anyway? That's just preposterous. Even if he was under heat there's no reason to believe he was more likely than anyone else to get elim'd today. (I know you're going to pick up on my vocab choices again, but this time you do so could you actually address the points I'm attaching them to instead of just listing "ridiculous preposterous absurd" in an attempt to discredit me without in any way addressing my arguments? kthx) Even if he WAS there was no reason to set this up by soft claiming yesterday. The play just makes no sense from a scum perspective and you know. Hell, you even said you know it in the post I quoted here. Now we're supposed to believe there's some nefarious plot to get another role cop that we don't even know is in the game? Fucking hell dude.

VOTE: The Bulge

that doesn't make any sense. how am I getting town credit from this? how is the way I've gone about pushing for this elim in any way conducive to gaining townie points?

I don't need to analyze outworld besides for associatives. I do need to find who his partners are. and who said I dropped anything against you? I never started a push there so I don't know what you think I was forcing.

nope, the rolecop thing is a possibility with absolutely no reason to disbelieve, but my running theory has always been that it was simply a bad claim. Like I said, maybe he was no more likely than anyone else to be today's elim regardless of claim, but from his pov especially with people calling directly for his claim very very early in the day, I'm sure it didn't seem that way to ansty outworldscum.

[The Bulge]

We 100% should massclaim. Bulge and Shea hit the point I wanted to avoid in their talks so I think there’s no reason not to massclaim

There's no reason to massclaim.

That was a Day 2 massclaim that ignored the fact that doing so gave scum a giant hole to fly through
Here I don't think scum has anything in particular that would offer them that sort of ez pass, and we're also in limlo-1, which is a better place to massclaim than limlo, because a direct CC in limlo can't be properly culled.

uhhhhh what gives you that impression? we have zero information on what scum has

[The Bulge]

Interesting. I hadn't really considered a Bulge-OW scumteam given that OW is one of my top TRs and there are so many other players that I'm SRing but this actually explains Bulge's insane push on OW here, which was mind boggling from both a scum!Bulge and town!Bulge perspective. But this make sense.

Bulge, other than OW, who are your top SRs right now? TRs?

NM pooky kasu town
Shea and gamma are probably outworld's partners but eh I could see panzer
blitzo I need to completely re-evaluate

[The Bulge]

please ignore Panzer's scumbuddy.

Bulge wagon is also bad because the case (from my POV) seems to be based on associations with me and while I can definitely see why you all would think that's plausible it's unfortunately untrue and that can be confirmed tomorrow.

we elim Panzer today, I accept no substitutes.

I don't agree with this. I think the bulge is scummy regardless of your alignment, and I believe that pushing to get a player who would be confirmed the next day elim'd has a lot of scum motivation if you did end up being town.

I haven't gotten him elimmed have I? will I? unlikely.

what's the motivation when he flips red? was the claim all a setup to give me cred? which I am now failing miserably at getting?

[The Bulge]

could you actually address my points instead of just saying "lol" in an attempt to discredit me without in any way addressing my arguments? kthx

[The Bulge]

both those are huge stretches.

why is bad scum who got nervous and didnt wait for his partners a stretch?

why is scum invest results a stretch?

this too please

[The Bulge]

You didn't make any points. You said you wouldn't get town credit for pushing a bus on your scum buddy. I'm not gunna explain the very basics of mafia to you if that's the kind of argument you're going to make.

why are you talking as if this game only exists in theory? how does the way I'm roguepushing outworld make sense if I'm trying for town cred? how is overtly playing against optimal town strategy in the case of leaving a claimed day x ic alive look to you like I'm vying for town cred?

[The Bulge]

like come on I'm obviously rocking the boat a shit tonne here, what you're saying is just not based in reality

I'd expect you to be able to actually tell me why I am wrong if I were.

[The Bulge]

"optimal strategy" talk, again, is for vacuums. I see scum, I want it dead. it's not hard to understand. is your angle now that I should hang for being anti-town? I'm also not going to walk you through step by step how I scumhunt but I know you've been around long enough to recognize nuance.

I mean if I get what I really want and outworld hangs today and bleeds red, yea I'd fucking hope for a little bit of credit as the only person who didn't buy his horseshit.

[The Bulge]

he's not flipping green. if he does then my town confidence will probably take a hit for a few games lol. not to mention tomorrow I'd have my head on the block in limlo. so yea it'd be pretty fucking bad, but I'm not worried about that.

[The Bulge]

actually that has me thinking. if the claim is legit, scum would LOVE for me to push this through today for an easy double-miselim setup. curious that isn't happening huh

[The Bulge]

I admit I'm not a great teamplayer when it comes to town. I don't spew every thought that comes to mind because why would I telegraph my movements to the scum I'm trying to hunt. that's all I'll say.

those quotes look nice side by side but they don't contradict each other.

I'll give you that your discrediting of my discrediting was a nice touch but it doesn't work if you're going to be a hypocrite about it.

VOTE: tsq

[The Bulge]

How have you scumhunted at all until today?

I gave my team prediction very early this phase, I've been reading old pages (not so much the last few days as I have been busy), I've been actively engaging my reads. I don't need to post a readslist or a case or list out every little thing that catches my attention to qualify as scumhunting, and you fucking know that.

[The Bulge]

nope. I would love for it to be outworld but sadly I'm not a dayvig. changing my vote doesn't mean shit.

here's a hint at my townplay "nuance": I've known for a long time I wouldn't get my wagon today.

trying to frame this as a shift of momentum tho is just LMAO

[The Bulge]

hahahahahaha how long do you think shea was waiting for me to vote anywhere else so he could call me on it hahahahhaha

[The Bulge]

I'm not doing myself any favours in looking super towny with my

push

. If I successfully push the wagon thru and he

flips

, then yea I'd think it would be fucking bizarre to immediately run me up the next day.

this is explaining way more than I wanted to but you seem deadset on not comprehending. I read people's reactions better from certain positions, for instance it's harder for me to read the game effectively if I am widely townread or confirmed. and when there are outrageous situations happening in the thread, I'm sure more than just me will agree that reading reactions can be more fruitful as well.

pedit: oh man I was wondering last night if you'd end up calling the 1v1 this just got a hell of a lot easier

[The Bulge]

I'm not doing myself any favours in looking super towny with my push. If I successfully push the wagon thru and he flips, then yea I'd think it would be fucking bizarre to immediately run me up the next day.

I was talking about town credit if he flips red. The whole time. Why the fuck are we talking about for the push as if that's something that matters for the result of the attack? This is just more gibberish.

I'm talking about your misrep of a statement I made which was about the way I am pushing outworld. stop shifting the goalposts.

You're conceding my point that you would get town credit for bussing a scum player. While trying to argue somehow that my point that your motivation for doing so would be to gain town credit isn't valid? What? What do these words even mean? My point was and has been the whole time that bussing a scum player gains you town credit, which is just a fucking truism. Which you've admitted.

Like the quote is in response to my point that you could be trying to get town credit for bussing a scum buddy. So even if you're trying to claim that somehow you were talking about something different there, then that's admitting that you were just responding to my point that you would be trying to get town credit from bussing with non-responsive nonsense. Especially because, again, you've now admitted that point.

what are you trying to prove here? I know how bussing works. why are you spending so many words talking about game theory?

[The Bulge]

nope. I would love for it to be outworld but sadly I'm not a dayvig. changing my vote doesn't mean shit.

here's a hint at my townplay "nuance": I've known for a long time I wouldn't get my wagon today.

trying to frame this as a shift of momentum tho is just LMAO

Why were you pushing it for so long then
Looks you’re playing for show

I already said I'm not spelling it out.

answer 2656

[The Bulge]

shea I'm just hoping your attack evolves beyond "look at how weird and dumb his posts are!" or it's gonna be a boring fight

[The Bulge]

what has been revealed to the mod about the scum team?

[The Bulge]

this is not an open setup why are you banking so hard on there being a cc

[The Bulge]

*by the mod

[The Bulge]

what is the point of massclaiming tho? all it does is out any remaining PRs. you have not explained why you are bringing it up in the first place