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[Infinity 324]

I hate being mislimmed and will do everything I can to stop that from happening.

[Infinity 324]

The thing I said about VP just SR'ing me now also applies to koba btw. If they thought I was scummy, they would've pushed on me way earlier. Nothing much has changed in my play, expect maybe losing a bit of engagement. I find it likely one or both are scum. I also think this gamestate makes a lot of sense with scum being really active, for reasons I'm having difficulty explaining.

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: koba

[Infinity 324]

Check out 473 and the engagement afterwards. VP clearly is aware of the fact that I don't have scumreads, but drops the whole thing until someone else brings it up much later.

[Infinity 324]

Check out 473 and the engagement afterwards. VP clearly is aware of the fact that I don't have scumreads, but drops the whole thing until someone else brings it up much later.

So you're saying it's my responsibility to make you scumhunt?

You say nothing changed about your play. That seems to be the problem. And I believe I brought this up around page 50 and just earlier today.

Don't mistake kindness for weakness. Trying to give you the benefit of the doubt doesn't mean I'm not willing to vote you out.

You're correct that you brought it up on your own.

Not your responsibility to make me scumhunt, but it is your responsibility to follow up on your own solving of my slot. Now I'm wondering why you didn't start pushing me around page 50.

[Infinity 324]

Ok, thoughts on shelly?

[Infinity 324]

(gamma)

[Infinity 324]

Lol taylor is town

[Infinity 324]

I could certainly see scum!VP here, the main reason being he often doesn't follow through all the way with his thought processes from earlier in the game. Part of the problem is that he admits to being not totally open with his reads, but I would expect some more questioning relating the concerns with certain slots (shelly and me for example). In some spots, it feels like he's being manipulative or keeping his options open for a mislim. However, the way he described being a journalist influencing his playstyle can explain some of this, since he likes to ask player A about their thoughts on player B a lot without giving his own opinion. I can see a towny mindset shining through in a few spots, which also gives me pause. Some potentially relevant quotes:

Spoiler:

Fair enough, and I agree that it was clear you thought it had merit. But you didn’t give an opinion or commit yourself to anything, it felt kinda like throwing shade to me.

I mean, the way I tend to see it is that town is a push and pull with other town players. Koba was doing a good job pushing shelly hard. I wanted to notch that pressure up a bit (or at least reinforce Koba was not alone in suspicion), but felt no need to take over the inquisition. I think it is fine for town to play supporting roles when the situation calls for it.

This post seemed to match up with his play at the time and felt like a towny way to go about it.

I don't agree they're open ended, she literally said scum is likely 3 out of a group of 4. Don't see why targeting high activity slots or PoE is scummy, even this early (I love PoE). I get there's a playstyle barrier here, do your best to explain it. My only read on taylor is a light townlean since in a recently finished scum game she seemed to care more about what people thought of her.

Curious why you see this slot as townlean when she called you scum for pretty weak ass reasons.

This feels manipulative to me in retrospect.

Like, I want andres to be town here, but I'm not seeing as much fire in the belly as I might expect. I don't know what his D1 play is usually like though.

Follows up on the andres read, which is good. I do think the way he's approaching this read has been a bit odd though, since he hasn't questioned/engaged andres a lot. Could be setting up a possible mislim down the line.

balt what is the progression on me? If you SR'd me do you think I bussed by starting that wagon?

Did I answer this?

Im still a bit skeptical of you, but flash wagoning math was protown. I don't think I'd want yeet you today, even though I said that earlier. Willing to hear you out some more and see if I was wrong earlier

I don't like this, there's not much initiative in terms of solving shelly and he sorta just drops the read.

Not too late for scum to bus Math here. Premium seats are almost filled and that speed hammer is gonna look bad!

Buy now!

This feels towny lol

Yes, I would still rather yeet someone we agree is scummiest.

I think it's a complete waste of a day to some degree to have to yeet n_m, but it is also very annoying behavior to encourage. Last resort for the day if needed I guess

This feels like keeping options open and I don't like it.

VP gives me pause as their tone gives off an almost authority like vibe which makes me think they play good as scum.

Registration and ID please.


This sort of feels like town on town, but Koba, I'd be interested in you responding to the broad strokes of Jackson's case if you will.

This feels very journalist-y, which does fit with the VP's description of his playstyle. (There are a bunch of spots where VP does this kind of thing). More likely to be town-indicative, since it's resorting to his natural style instead of faking.

What I would say is that I would have maybe preferred to have seen these reasons you’re articulating now more clearly stated at that time.

This tends to be my play. It's probably a personality trait from my job (journalist). I'll often hold back initial reasoning a bit because it can prompt reactions. Always happy to be clear though if asked.

Anyhow, I'm biased about the TR on me because I think my own town play is pretty clear most times. I always get some suspicion or concern though because I play OK as scum too.

The bias on the TR is more likely to come from town since scum may not think of that.

im a tonereader mostly. normally i mindmeld with infinity, and infinity generally comes of as obvtown to me. that isnt happening here. and the tone feels off. for more concrete things, see my iso.

I'm on my phone and not ISOing anyone atm. If you have something more substantial than tone/meta, spit it out.

I'm not asking you to make a wall. Literal bullet points will do and I'm not asking you to back it up with evidence. Just tell me

Sort of looks like he's trying to get taylor to "convince" him to vote me. I do think he seems to be looking for justification to SR me in some spots, rather than just saying that he's willing to compromise on me.

Need to think about this a bit more, but leaning scum atm.

[Infinity 324]

@Infinity -- let me give you a clear example of why I ask people to "go on record" like that, as I would describe it.

Here is a post from my most recent game. Reckoner was scum caught in a lie D3. This post is from D5 when I started to go back over possible evidence of his buddies. We were in Xylo and I needed to find scum, since I was confirmed town and a swing vote. Gamma can vouch for my play here since he was in that Xylo.

Ok, so let's entertain this for a minute. Who is your best guess at the full scum team reck?

great question. i'd probably wager 2 of the unrevealeds and then one of the claimed roles just based on probability. the extra manipulator role has to be something unclaimed since everything else is at least ACTION confirmed, but not alignment confirmed

so 2 of {gamma, skies, duppin, noraa} and 1 of {ut, ythan, haschel}

out of those, gun to my head, dont think it's gamma or ut.

This might be the revealing post we needed. Put yourself in Reck's shoes here. I forced him to tell me his scum team after he got caught lying. What are the odds he puts both of his buddies in the same grouping in this post? I would think low, particularly in the bracket where he says there are 2 scum.

If true, that means Haschel is definitely scum here. My only hang up with that vote is I don't trust duppin to sort noraa and gamma tomorrow in an open minded way.

Asking people to state their positions and why without revealing your own perspective (I was 100% convinced Reck was lying scum when I asked him for his scum team) can really yield fertile info to harvest later when you know more about the he state after flips.

It may draw attention to me earlier in the game, but I don't really care. I don't think I'm particularly easy to yeet as town.

I don't doubt that, I guess I'm more concerned with your read progressions. I'm interested to know why you kept asking me about my read on taylor (ex. 625, 746) which kinda felt like you were trying to set up a TvT.

[Infinity 324]

@Almost, I'm worried that this game will get a bit long for people to keep up with. Read through the thread a bit before asking about things from page 2.

[Infinity 324]

OK, I'll try to keep the post volume relatively low, although some of the others are already posting more than their fair share. Whatever.

Yeah I get it, a few people (including me) could post a bit less, but if you comment on everything starting from RVS that spams the thread

really

quick.

[Infinity 324]

I'm interested to know why you kept asking me about my read on taylor (ex. 625, 746) which kinda felt like you were trying to set up a TvT.

Because I want to know both of your mindsets. I find it a little confusing that you as town are totally cool with a bullshit meta case being made against you.

As town, when I've played with someone 1-2 times before, that impacts my read on them more than it should. Have you not experienced this/seen other townies do this before?

[Infinity 324]

1609 makes me think koba voted mark in order to go "oh oops guess I couldn't get my top choice time to compromise on infinity"

[Infinity 324]

1609 makes me think koba voted mark in order to go "oh oops guess I couldn't get my top choice time to compromise on infinity"

To be fair, they’re getting flash wagon’d, so I’d say that makes sense if kkoba’s town too.

I was having trouble finding the scum or town motivation from their vote on mark, since they'd been townreading mark for doing essentially the same thing for most of the game. I found a possible scum motivation so

[Infinity 324]

For sure. I'd say I'm more inclined to give Koba and Andres leeway this game because I just played with them as town and like them both.

That being said, it's not a free pass. You can see my skepticism of Andres, for example, even if I'm giving him some time to vibe with me.

Taylor's case is legit shit, and you're like "lol Taylor is town" because she posted a dumb reply. Either you're free passing her completely, or you know her alignment. Not saying you can't think she is town, but it would absolutely raise my hackles if I was in your position.

It's not

complete

shit. It's more like "infinity played different than the two other games I played with him as town". That much is true. Using that as the whole case is obviously bad, but something I've seen town do before. In fact, that's kinda why I think she's town now that the read switched. She started townreading me when I started putting in effort (like I did during the games we've played together), which I knew she would do if town. If she's scum, though, she can pretend to be stuck in a tunnel and I'm the only one who can call her out for it. But since I'm being mislimmed, people are likely not to listen to me. So there's no real reason to switch her read on me there if scum.

[Infinity 324]

I brought this up like before i pushed you

Wait where?

@A50: I thought koba was towny because they seemed to be doing a lot to get the game out of RVS.

[Infinity 324]

lmao we get it hes ur partner buddy.

i only tr him bc big wallposts just like the rest of the table did.
Then the contents of them started slipping him.

You really thought that was why everyone was TRing him? I got strong townvibes from his frustration with your posting style, among other things. Seemed like he was really trying to engage with you but got frustrated when you weren't really doing that.

[Infinity 324]

that's not alignment indicative

Scum wouldn't give a shit, they can OMGUS you or ignore you.

[Infinity 324]

so ur projecting? U think marks dgb push is towny? U think their attempt to push nm is towny? I look at actions not words lmao. Ur premises are garbage

Their worry about sorting slots that are low info is towny, yes. It's a concern, I don't agree that we have to lim a low info slot on d1 but the motivation behind it is towny. Words matter, scum can "do town things" but the way they do those things might be off. Mark's emotions and words are matching up with his actions, which is something even experienced scum can have difficulty faking. I just have a hard time believing you thought walls = town for so long.

[Infinity 324]

What exactly are you referring to, the discussion about me/taylor not being TvT?

[Infinity 324]

I am okay with my vote on Infinity for now, really. There’s too much complaining about how people started SR’ing them too late into D1 too which as an argument makes no sense. Sometimes you go back and catch things you missed the first time.

It was such an obvious point though. I haven't had strong scumreads the whole game, and had voiced it multiple times, but they only thought it was scummy once momentum started building.

[Infinity 324]

What exactly are you referring to, the discussion about me/taylor not being TvT?

No, the discussion between Tayl0r and VPB.

To clarify, I’m saying that their argument

is

TvT. Or that at first glance it feels that way to me.

I could see this, I think VP is ok just "compromising" on me (like koba) and doesn't lose much as scum with the vote on taylor. Since he has a lot of influence over the game, he isn't afraid to stick out.

[Infinity 324]

@Infinity But aren’t you coming out more strongly against VPB the minute that Tayl0r and VPB start fighting and votes are exchanged? And only then do you put some “relevant posts” down? Seems somewhat convenient to me.

I went back, ISO'd VP, and reconsidered. VP just piggybacked off of your point and it didn't feel like genuine re-evaluation.

[Infinity 324]

@Infinity But aren’t you coming out more strongly against VPB the minute that Tayl0r and VPB start fighting and votes are exchanged? And only then do you put some “relevant posts” down? Seems somewhat convenient to me.

I went back, ISO'd VP, and reconsidered. VP just piggybacked off of your point and it didn't feel like genuine re-evaluation.

But that’s a significant re-evaluation and argument as a means of taking a side in a fight between Tayl0r and VPB that had just happened. The timing is too perfect. If they’re both Town, then as Scum you have very little to lose there.

I mean I said I would re-evaluate my read on VP yesterday.

PEdit: see 1677 wrt my taylor reads. I don't think I need to ISO her because most of the AI stuff she's done has been recent.

[Infinity 324]

How about this, did any of the reasoning in 1644 feel manufactured to you?

PEdit: andres they totally different scenarios and I don't understand how to explain it better than I did. Me not having scumreads was an obvious point that was clear all game. The few points that VP felt manipulative weren't obvious and needed a reread. Re-evaluation is done in different ways by town and scum, one is towny and one is scummy.

[Infinity 324]

Since he has a lot of influence over the game, he isn't afraid to stick out.

I have a lot of influence? I haven't gotten people to vote my way most of the day.

I'm definitely engaging with a lot of people because that is how I get reads, but I wouldn't say I'm particularly influential at this point.

I'm basically being forced to compromise yeet you because of my lack of influence

Yeah, I guess it's more like scum!you would be confident enough to stick out.

[Infinity 324]

I'm going to look into andres later/tomorrow, I think the push on me is towny but not sure.

[Infinity 324]

You called VPB’s response in 625 manipulative. But I agree. VPB interpreted Tayl0r’s push on you to be weak. And whenever I see a bad case being made against me (particularly as Town), I don’t return with a TR, I go back and probe, to try and demonstrate that the reasoning is poor. So, it’s a legitimate question.

Yeah I'm more jaded, town uses weak reasoning all the time. I don't think there's anything unusual about noticing that someone is playing different from a couple town games of theirs, and using that to form a read, despite it being bad play. (I had a null read on taylor at that point so) You agreeing with him makes me less confident tbf.

Your reaction to 650 is interesting, but I don’t know that I agree. Setting up a miselim of my slot would be arguing strongly that if you flip Town, I’m always Scum, or something of the sort. Because if I’m wrong about you, and he knows it, he has something to fall back on. Simply stating that they expected me to be more aggressive doesn’t seem to fall in the same category.

It's a different type of thing, I thought that he could be setting up to go "ha I knew there was something off about andres" later in the game. It's also possible from a town perspective, but yeah.

And about 891, yeah, I can see what you’re saying here. I will make a few points. One, Not_Mafia is extremely difficult to read. Nothing they do is ever decisively Towny or Scummy. So, it’s reasonable to suggest them as a compromise execution in a tight spot. However, and this is my second point, it’s not impossible to figure them out either. In fact, Not_Mafia is actually voting for DkKoba, and not themselves, and has made a few reads. And, I don’t think we find ourselves in a tight spot yet. So I’m not fully dismissing what you’re saying, but VPB isn’t really being Scummy for pushing something that is logical.

Ok makes sense. I do think VP would have to be playing really well to be scum here, and I can definitely see town motivation behind his posts, but there are a few things he's done that have felt off.

[Infinity 324]

So just to follow up on 1727, if I had felt that your analysis of these posts that you highlighted was strong or spot on, then I wouldn’t be SR’ing you for the timing. But the fact that a lot of this doesn’t really offset the posts you did call Towny, and yet you come out with a Lean Scum on VPB after the fight between Tayl0r and VPB, coupled with the fact that you now seem to be backtracking... it doesn’t look good to me.

I felt the opposite, the reasons I had to TR VP's posts were somewhat weak and the scum points were stronger.

[Infinity 324]

Andres, you don't find it slightly weird that Taylor has called infinity scum since the start of this game and never waivered until the yeet was legit going to happen?

I find that super suspect.

What if it’s a distancing tactic though? Don’t we have Scum anyway? Haha just trying to be optimistic here.

I'll admit. That crossed my mind. Their play at each other is nonsensical

I feel like people get this perception a lot when they're on the outside looking in.

[Infinity 324]

Gamma lmk your thoughts on koba and VP when you get the chance.

I get some townpings from gerain's posts so far.

[Infinity 324]

Why would you soft now

[Infinity 324]

Was thinking about that, but now you made it pointless.

[Infinity 324]

I didn't expect an answer lol

[Infinity 324]

I'm not sure town!you undoes your own gambit, if that's what you were trying to do

There's so much wine here I wanna just ignore the soft

[Infinity 324]

Normally that’s what you do with softs, yeah

[Infinity 324]

Yeah im softing pr and yeah you better piss off

[Infinity 324]

I do have some regrets.

[Infinity 324]

UNVOTE: I changed my mind

[Infinity 324]

Koba, if I'm town who's scum?

[Infinity 324]

I'm lost about this game again. Gonna do some ISO's tomorrow I guess

[Infinity 324]

Can someone just talk reads with me it's way easier and more enjoyable than wading through ISO's and wondering whether I'm insane and my reads are backwards

[Infinity 324]

Cool what are your thoughts on gamma/shelly?

[Infinity 324]

I don't think I can read gamma anymore either shelly has a bunch of content though

[Infinity 324]

koba take a look at VP's iso and tell me what you think btw

in the meantime im staying on the math wagon for now because i think pressuring math is one of the only ways to actually discern maths alignment as they're pretty lurky

Ok I can kinda see that.

my SR on baltar has been weakened btw, seems like there's a lot of aggression to oppose me but at the same time some space for re-consideration so its confidence that doesn't seem TMI'd? if that makes sense
y

This take really mindmelded with me though.

[Infinity 324]

DGB is town imo. busy town make naked votes and reads and that's pretty indicative of it.

This is like, way too easy of a townread. I'm getting townvibes from DGB (I think?) but this reasoning is bad.

infinity/koba/DGB rather obvious town
for infinity (since I scumleaned there earlier) I think they're actively making new wagons and content which is protown, and the "passitivity" I pointed out earlier is prob personality rather than AI

More pre-justification.

im thinking. JV you usually have a "wow" factor as town and i dont really get that yet

This feels off, why feel the need to say it?

I agree with shelly on too much, it's unfortunate if they're scum but

[Infinity 324]

hmm im not sure what the second take means. if im reading it right then shelly is saying shes no longer confident in scumreading vp because other people said not to? who is reconsidering? who is confident? i realize you didnt write the post but i dont know what it means

Shelly is saying that VP is confident but open to reconsidering, which feels like a towny attitude.

[Infinity 324]

This entire game is just people who are really good at scum and people who don't do anything d1. No matter it's impossible to find a good lim.

[Infinity 324]

Could see DGB as scum actually, lots of consensus votes and no one pressuring her.

[Infinity 324]

Consensus reads* in general

{taylor, JV, mark}
{flavor}
{gerain, n_m, A50}
{DGB, gamma, VP}

I'll ISO andres tomorrow and revisit koba later.

[Infinity 324]

Finding good scum makes my head hurt cause there’s always a good possibility that they’re town.

[Infinity 324]

I’m going to sleep

[Infinity 324]

Consensus reads* in general

{taylor, JV, mark}
{flavor}
{gerain, n_m, A50}
{DGB, gamma, VP}

I'll ISO andres tomorrow and revisit koba later.

So Taylor is your top town read at this point in the game?

I’d say JV and mark are probably stronger.

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: gamma flash wagon time

[Infinity 324]

[font=][/font]

For sure. I'd say I'm more inclined to give Koba and Andres leeway this game because I just played with them as town and like them both.

That being said, it's not a free pass. You can see my skepticism of Andres, for example, even if I'm giving him some time to vibe with me.

Taylor's case is legit shit, and you're like "lol Taylor is town" because she posted a dumb reply. Either you're free passing her completely, or you know her alignment. Not saying you can't think she is town, but it would absolutely raise my hackles if I was in your position.

It's not

complete

shit. It's more like "infinity played different than the two other games I played with him as town". That much is true. Using that as the whole case is obviously bad, but something I've seen town do before. In fact, that's kinda why I think she's town now that the read switched. She started townreading me when I started putting in effort (like I did during the games we've played together), which I knew she would do if town. If she's scum, though, she can pretend to be stuck in a tunnel and I'm the only one who can call her out for it. But since I'm being mislimmed, people are likely not to listen to me. So there's no real reason to switch her read on me there if scum.

[Infinity 324]

I'll vote gerain by the end of today

[Infinity 324]

I'd like to point out that gamma, despite not being caught up, still managed to throw in an opportunistic vote, shade throwing (1778, 1820), and overdefensive nonsense (1823).

[Infinity 324]

lmao so?

I believe there is a higher-than-random chance of him being aligned with the mafia.

[Infinity 324]

In other words: I have a scumread on gamma.

[Infinity 324]

Ok I don't think everyone who has bad read progressions on me are all scum (andres, VP, koba). I think it's just cause I got lazy.

[Infinity 324]

Andres, what’s your read on gerain atm?

[Infinity 324]

Gamma I don’t know your meta anymore. All I know is that you’re throwing out vague opinions on the gamestate without having proper context.

[Infinity 324]

The fact Infinity is pushing me in THIS gamestate when I’m in the position I’m in is MAD SKETCHY. I’m quite vulnerable to getting Zyf’ed rn and I think he knows and wants to abuse that.

Ftr, I have no completed games with town!gamma in the past 3 years or so.

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: gerain

[Infinity 324]

Yeah I'm pretty sure all these wagons are on town but

[Infinity 324]

I think andres is likely to be town who is suspicious of me since we have similar feelings about the gamestate but are approaching it very differently. We both feel not confident in our reads, and are worried about strong scum, but he's seeing me get really frustrated about it and is not sure why since he's doing work to re-evaluate and figure out the game anyway.

[Infinity 324]

Spoiler: andres quotes

Koba where are you? I think there’s some chance shellyc is Scum here hahaha

This feels towny to me for reasons I can't really explain. He's pointing out a slot that was pressured early on after the wagon lost momentum, going against the grain to do so.

My disagreement was much more targeted at Shellyc and her take on Infinity. I openly said I wasn’t sure about you, which means I wasn’t as focused on that part of it. I also acknowledge that you did put out an early reads list, so that’s a positive.

About that, why did you think the readslist was towny when I only did it because koba asked?

Would you rather I SR you for providing a reads list, even though it was prompted? I know what you’re getting at, but what I liked about the list was that I did not find it offensive (I thought it was reasonable and could see how you arrived at some of those early reads).

I didn't like this easy read. There are a few places where andres does this, I'm chalking it up to it being a difficult game.

This might sound silly, but I don’t want to eliminate geraintm just yet. Unless this is a strategy I haven’t seen before, no sane Scum under pressure just blurts out that they are not going to contribute at all until they have more information. It’s too blatant.

VOTE: shellyc

I’ll switch over here. I need to read some pages in more detail. I still haven’t been able to read every post.

Not sure what changed between here and his original vote on gerain.

Koba where are you? I think there’s some chance shellyc is Scum here hahaha

I won't take this as an insult I wasn't mentioned.

I'd yeet shelly or geraintm today. You got a preference?

@VPB, as I’ve been catching up, I have noticed your early intense focus on geraintm (which I somewhat shared but then I moved away because it just didn’t seem like Scum would play like that D1), which is giving me pause. I also think that this narrowing of the pool for a vote D1 that you were trying to do here does not sit all that well with me, but I was trying to figure out how I felt about the game state in general before coming at you. I think you had somewhat of an overreaction with shellyc, and I think that pushing a slot that is really not providing much content to the level that you are, make me lean Scum on you to be totally honest.

The skepticism for someone he's seen be strong as scum is towny here, and he brings up some good points.

Jackson, I'd have to look at that game more closely, the posts in that spoiler have lots of different tones which range from lighter suspicions or thinking about who could be scum to things like "you're misrepping me" which I read as pretty direct. I saw some places in the other game where they were less confident too, though tbf maybe it wasn't in the same way.

Jackson feels towny from this

Sigh. What? You think trying to raise the temperature and not recognizing the similarities that VPB is openly saying exist between Koba’s Town game and approach here is Towny? Did I miss something?

Towny frustration. He was happy with me questioning jackson, but gets frustrated when I don't come to the same conclusion.

@DkKoba why would I be completely rigid on D1? I am expressing my reads as I have them right now. I also don’t really have particularly strong TR’s. Like I have yet to find someone this game that is extremely likely to be Town in my view.

I also think you’re seeing these stances from me because we have a large list of somewhat difficult players to read in this game {Zdenek, DGB, geraintm, NDMath, VPB and Not_Mafia}, some players that have notable Scum skills based on my past experience {shellyc, VPB}, and some players that seem to me to be acting somewhat dogmatically or in my view, Scummy {Marky Mark (by his own admission), Jackson}. I think you’re mostly misunderstood here, but you are also very polarizing. I mean, either VPB, shellyc, DGB, and I (among others) seem to be arguing that you are Town, whereas Jackson, Marky Mark and Not_Mafia (among others) have explicitly stated or argued the reverse.

The closest thing I have to decent Town Reads are {Infinity, Tayl0r}, fully recognizing that I have a reasonable degree of skepticism of both slots still. And look at DGB’s takes there - both Null!

The argument that I am taking a back seat I disagree with, but that’s your perception. So I won’t argue about it.

See 1925

I'm ready to make a play, if only to spice things up.

VOTE: Jackson

Yeet koba after me if y'all choose this is all I ask

Also, if you check my latest scum game. You can see how absolutely pushing I was against giving any actual information I gain as a scum role. So you thinking I would out actual results as a traitor is against my kind of playstyle.

Also, if you check my latest scum game. You can see how absolutely pushing I was against giving any actual information I gain as a scum role. So you thinking I would out actual results as a traitor is against my kind of playstyle.

If you wish I can quote from the mafia PT

These posts in particular made me reconsider my stance. Yeah, the first one is the easiest to fake. But I think the transparency you are showing here (comparing your play here versus how you play Scum) and the commitment to the particular read on Koba (which you later admit approaches a tunnel) make me really question whether you’re Scum. I feel like you might be a bit more hesitant to openly admit that you’re tunneling? If that makes sense?

I don't really see this reasoning but I think this is a place where town is likely to switch a read but scum isn't (kinda like taylor's read on me). I also townread jackson later for their koba tunnel.

I don’t really care for your description of my progression on Koba

Could you explain it?

I’m not sure I understand what you’re asking. You could either be asking me to explain my disdain for a poor representation of my progression on Koba, or the progression itself.

If you want to better understand my view on Koba, I guess I would say the following: I have a natural inclination to want to trust Koba. We’ve played together once before, where I immediately recognized that they have good instincts as Town, and can push hard (without making giant cases). So we got along quite well, and it ended up being part of the reason we won.

Here, Koba seems to be utilizing elements of that game (same characteristic fire and aggressive attitude), but we don’t seem to agree on much. In fact, at different times, we’ve pushed each other. And I don’t know, I can’t settle on what I think about Koba’s alignment. I am skeptical of VPB for example (they can be excellent Scum, and so I definitely want to see more from him before I make up my mind there), and though Koba said (i) that they are naturally inclined to want to trust those that they have played with as Town, and mistrust those they have seen play Scum (129), and (ii) that they would ISO VPB and come back with thoughts (316), I haven’t seen this really play out or happen at all. Now, Koba might have thought that this wasn’t necessary once they established that VPB was Town (324), but much later they left VPB as null, so I am still left wondering about this.

Also, Koba’s 180 on my slot is somewhat strange. This is what they said early in the game when they were somewhat defending me from a push by shellyc: 133.

And then, this is what they used to explain a vote on me: 828, 837.

Now, it’s entirely possible that Koba thought that they had seen enough from my slot, and that at that stage I was Scum. But then why the change of direction after? See 1021.

On the other hand, and this is really what tilts the balance the other way: Koba is picking fights with practically everybody this game. Koba has SR Me (as per above), shellyc (137, 183), JacksonVirgo (248, 297, 425, 556, 1105), NDMath (259, 685), Zdenek (574), Tayl0r (617, 692, 879, 968, 1133), Not_Mafia (753, 878), geraintm (752), Flavor (927), and Infinity (1007, 1144) by my count.

So what’s the strategy here? Piss everyone off until you get voted out? This does make the fact that there hasn’t been much pushing from Koba against VPB quite interesting. But other than that, I think this is more likely coming from someone who is trying to figure out the game.

Based on some of the pushes that I have highlighted above, 909 is too egregious for Scum too.

I feel like it's easy for scum to say "idk how to read koba hurr durr" but this is good reasoning looking at koba's play from both sides.

I’m going to say this because well, I feel like I have to. I can’t fight you for having this take. I can’t. It’s your perception. But it’s also a cop out. It’s like saying, well, overall they seem Town and seem to be contributing, but I think it could all be fake. Yeah, maybe. But you make assessments based on what’s more likely to be the case. I understand the paranoia behind this statement (and in fact, it’s moderating my view of your slot somewhat, together with the fact that I feel like Flavor’s 1385 is a bit aggressive), but it also makes it very difficult for us to ever get on the same page if our interactions are actually TvT. So maybe that’s something you want to think about.

This is genuine and a good take tbh

I would be surprised to see {Tayl0r, Marky Mark, JV} flip Scum.

Good reads. Consistent with his skepticism of the players with stronger scum games, he townreads the players who don't seem to have a strong agenda.

So andres isn't a super strong TR, but I do think he's more likely to be town here.

[Infinity 324]

Nice spoiler tags

[Infinity 324]

What's his alignment this game?

[Infinity 324]

No elims are terrible for town, we just end up in the same situation but with our strongest/towniest player dead. Relying on PRs is bad. There’s way not enough time to get a new wagon to happen.

[Infinity 324]

If scum!VP is trying to get townpoints for saying what needs to be said, it's working

[Infinity 324]

Nah I think you're being towny

[Infinity 324]

Gamma, I don't think I've been in a single game with you where you had to catch up. Clearly you are a much more experienced player than when I last played with you, and the idea that I would use info from a completely different situation from your first game

ever

on this site to push you here is absurd.

[Infinity 324]

VP, do you really think scum!me thinks I can mislim gamma here?

[Infinity 324]

I guess, but in that case gamma’s argument still doesn’t make sense. He’s saying that he has particular trouble defending himself when he’s catching up, and I should know because in his first game on the site someone tunneled him. This argument is so illogical I almost think it has to be an emotionally-driven town argument. But it still makes no sense whatsoever.

[Infinity 324]

Y'all. Force a damn claim already. The time to debate wagons has passed

[Infinity 324]

Sometimes you have to give possible scum townpoints for doing towny things. I'm still suspicious of VP, but he's at least been making effort coordinating people to an elim and such, which gets townpoints from me. (The way he's doing it also feels towny). See 1644 for my thoughts on him in general.

[Infinity 324]

UNVOTE: consider my vote still on but yeah

[Infinity 324]

Why unvote there if your intent is to revote

I don't want n_m to lolhammer. That being said, gerain doesn't seem to be claiming so
VOTE: gerain

[Infinity 324]

You never know, he could've changed his mind...

[Infinity 324]

Gamma I don’t have time to respond to your post right now but I thought that sequence of posts was very scummy outside of you catching up and my desire to start a wagon was motivated by the fact that I strongly believe that all 3 wagons are on town. I do think you’re town now so there’s that.

[Infinity 324]

Did you expect me to answer the PR question?

[Infinity 324]

Most of our games together come from the time where I had ample ability to play mafia. That is absolutely not the situation these days. I have work and other obligations, and I also try to vary my recreational activities. As such my ability to handle fast games is limited at times. Generally I have the ability to float along in most games, and can select a specific one to focus on at a time, which you saw me mention in Haunted Village. In order to do that, though, I actually need the ability to carve out time to do it, which for like the last week I either haven’t had or have wanted to use to do something else regarding my recreation.

As such I have not been able to escape this state of needing to catch up, so I’m trying to just float along and interact with people based on limited opinions and knowledge. 1842 seems to present this vibe of “if you’re not caught up, don’t try to do anything until you are”. Well, I can’t really resolve that for a while, so what, do you want me to replace out, do nothing, or what?

It's unfortunate you can't really get caught up yet, I didn't know that. I have often seen scum try to give opinions on the gamestate without being caught up as a way to appear like they're doing things without being quite as accountable, whereas town usually focuses on getting caught up first so they can have the most accurate reads. I don't think that's the case anymore here, I think the frustration was genuine. But it was something that pinged me a bit.

I’ve already asserted this, but my vote was not opportunistic, I just voted someone who I wanted to vote but wasn’t voting yet because of a condition I had wanted to resolve but was realizing I wasn’t going to be able to in time to help. And it’s a bit weird to call it opportunistic when the VC shows me as the first vote, no?

Idk, it just feels like gerain is such an easy scumread to have, maybe I'm biased because I have much different vibes from what posts he's had but it seemed very convenient. You certainly weren't the first vote on gerain, the VC isn't in order I guess.

In addition I fail to see how I was overly defensive in 1823. Tay said I was dodging tough questions by saying I wasn’t caught up, so I put her on the spot to name an example. I followed it up by saying my self-analysis of my meta has never turned up an instance where I’d done the thing she seemed to be accusing me of. I think it’s a stretch to even call that defensive, so the additional “overly” makes me suspect you are acting in bad faith by trying to paint it as something it really isn’t.

It was something about the way it was worded, especially the part in parentheses. Maybe I didn't word it the best way, but it was certainly a post that pinged me.

As for how this scenario relates back to that newbie, you saw how I struggled to deal with Zyf’s pressure there. So you know I have trouble with dealing with a player intent on picking apart every single thing that I do. I saw the seeds of that kind of push in that post where you referenced specific posts as things you thought were scummy of me. I also was not having a good time trying to keep up with the activity level of the game, which while it doesn’t have anything to do with that newbie game, I think you were cognizant of it and felt like you could pressure me and possibly hit me while my guard was down, it’s just your timing was a little off probably, or you expect more people to take your bait.

This is the part where I feel like you're really stretching. I don't even remember too much about the newbie game, it was a long time ago. My push looks a lot different than zyf's did in that game iirc. I understand that scum!me could be taking advantage of you not being caught up, but how is that any different than the people pushing gerain for not participating a ton in d1 just like every game?

Another problem with your attempt to push me is the fact you called for a flash wagon. Earlier you had me and geraint in seemingly different positions to what you seem to have is at now. What caused that shift, because I don’t think anything in what I or geraint has done is enough to completely swap where we are in your reads. Seems more like you started to get cold feet on a distancing attempt. I also feel like the things you pushed me for are a bit weak sauce even if you genuinely believe them as valid points, at least to call for a flash wagon. Seems you’re concerned that you and geraint are both pinned by wagons and are trying to wrestle your way out.

What I was trying to wrestle out of was the fact that I really think all 3 wagons are on town today. There wasn't a ton of time left in the deadline, so it really needed to be a flash wagon. I did think you made a scummy sequence of posts, and when I talked to taylor about your predecessor we found some things that were pretty scummy, which certainly changed my opinion on that slot. Everyone being willing to compromise on gerain, and his recent posts being pretty towny, changed my mind a bit on that slot, and I never thought it was a great elim to begin with. If I'm scum with gerain, I could push koba or something. I get that you were frustrated about my push, but I really wanted to lim scum and I don't think that's possible today anymore. I could start caring less about this game, but that just leads to people scumreading me more and I really hate being mislimmed. I did what I thought I had to.

[Infinity 324]

What are people's reads on DGB?

[Infinity 324]

Well I'm town so

[Infinity 324]

I assume this is a reaction test, but lmk if you want me to claim

[Infinity 324]

She’s probably reaction testing I guess? Since gamma died and I was a big scumspect from yesterday

[Infinity 324]

Depends when she retracts it. I’m confused what’s going on but scum wouldn’t fake a result on me here.

[Infinity 324]

Ok well

I’m a detective (targets someone and learns whether they’ve ever attempted an NK), I targeted flavor leaf last night and he didn’t kill anyone

I targeted flavor leaf because he wasn’t very suspected and likely to perform a kill if scum, plus I was afraid of the flavor scum game

[Infinity 324]

No I’m just poking around, doing some detective work

Crumb

[Infinity 324]

Well I'm town so

Oh

I'll take your word for it, the mod probably made a mistake.

This is pretty clearly claiming something

[Infinity 324]

Idk, I thought it was pretty clear DGB wasn't retracting, what else was I supposed to wait for

[Infinity 324]

Fucking hell

[Infinity 324]

I fought like hell not to have to claim yesterday, only to do it prematurely today and look like a total idiot in the process.

[Infinity 324]

Idk, I thought it was pretty clear DGB wasn't retracting, what else was I supposed to wait for

I mean, you weren't really in yeet range yet. If I was an investigative role, you can bet I'd be reluctant to claim.

I wasn't going to vote you until I heard more, even if I believed the claim.

I mean

It looked like a guilty

What’s supposed to change if I wait?

[Infinity 324]

I thought she was gunsmith and a claim would resolve it

[Infinity 324]

It's wine, but I didn't think scum would send a low-activity slot to do the kill

[Infinity 324]

You started the day trying to survey the players on how scummy i am That did not sit well with me. It sounded like scum trying to take Connor the day's agenda

The reason I did that is I wanted to commit people to a read. I found it odd that people were pushing gerain over you when neither of you had a

ton

of activity and there wasn't a particularly solid case on gerain imo.

[Infinity 324]

DGB’s reaction test feels towny

VOTE: VP baltar

[Infinity 324]

how is it towny from your pov???

Idk, she seemed to have low WIM, and it felt like something town with low WIM would do whereas scum with low WIM probably wouldn't think of it.

[Infinity 324]

Some things I noticed from VP's end of day 1:

I'm basically being forced to compromise yeet you because of my lack of influence

This feels like trying to evade responsibility and I don't like it

So the reason I appealed to you was because you’re the main person I think who could understand where I’m coming from.

Interesting. I hadn't thought it that way. If you think this is something infinity is aware of and trying to exploit, that's scummy.

And you just told A50 to do essentially what Infinity is trying to smear me on. Infinity tried to say me voting geraint when I did was opportunistic when I was just putting my money where my mouth was ahead of when I originally wanted to catch up first. And now you are telling A50 to do the same thing I already have done. I think Infinity’s trying to throw out a bit too much shade for his own good.

Agreed. Don't like it

Feels like setting up a mislim on me later (though tbf gamma dying takes away from this a bit)

Geraintm is either VT trying to eat a yeet for the greater good, or plain old scum. Given the complete lack of engagement, I think it is the latter.

It's been nice playing with you all. Remember, I'll be looking down on you from heaven like Mufasa.

vp be honest are you scum? ://

Nah, I'm just running and gunning. If gerain flips red I'm for sure dead....

...

...

Less them docs on me!

Feels like trying to look ignorant of the flip and pretend he thinks he'll be NKed. I don't see town say things like this very often.

[Infinity 324]

It's wine, but I didn't think scum would send a low-activity slot to do the kill

Yeah I think this is Town, also does a Detective show as a positive to a gunsmith?

Yeah

[Infinity 324]

how is it towny from your pov???

Idk, she seemed to have low WIM, and it felt like something town with low WIM would do whereas scum with low WIM probably wouldn't think of it.

Tf is this word salad

DGB has low WIM

Low WIM town -> reaction test
Low WIM scum -> no reaction test

[Infinity 324]

Motivation

[Infinity 324]

Want-it-more

[Infinity 324]

that makes 0 sense but ok

[Infinity 324]

DGB’s reaction test feels towny

VOTE: VP baltar

I hate the word "feels" so much I do NOT subscribe to it AT ALL.

Let's talk FACTS and logic. Why OUT a TPR? Why even RISK outing one so early? DGB isn't a noob, you know. She's a veteran, and she knew all along a CC was more likely than not.

Now lt's assume she

is

a Mason as she claims. That was extremely a selfish move still. Scum now have the option to shoot her or you (or maybe her Mason buddy if they can deduce that) and that's ASSUMING she is a Mason indeed. How's a protective supposed to decide whom to protect?

I don’t think she’s a mason. I think town with low motivation is much more likely to do a (bad) play that shakes things up as opposed to scum doing some big brained gambit. I don’t really care what your opinion of feels are, but the only times I’ve ever caught scum is when their emotions didn’t line up with their actions. That’s how I scumhunt.

[Infinity 324]

She hasn't been super active

[Infinity 324]

Idk I guess I made the assumption that since wasn’t posting and interacting a ton in the thread she wasn’t super motivated to win? Definitely have seen DGB be way more active than she’s been

[Infinity 324]

Given that I was the primary alternative to the gerain wagon, I'm not sure scum are more or less likely to be on the wagon fmpov. A town elim would've gone through no matter what. Koba flipping scum might change that but yeah.

[Infinity 324]

I always think outside the box (some call it moon!logic). Let's say scum have a Role Cop, and they targeted Infinity. They now know that this is an Investigative role, so why nor sacrifice one of them in exchange of eliminating the Investigative? Uncommon and unlikely, but possible non-the-less

Hmm, I'm suspicious of A50's uncertainty about the claim just based off this. @A50, did you think my reaction to the claim was towny? Or was there another reason you weren't sure about the guilty?

[Infinity 324]

Ok, so yeah, the math on infinity's claim is that he was at L-3 when he claimed. That seems exceptionally antsy when the threshold today is L-6 and I had intentionally avoided not voting there. I really don't get how you as town yesterday walked right up to the razor's edge (think you were L-2 yday with people saying they'd be willing to elim you) and not claim, but then claim today quite early when you think there is a guilty on you. It was a serious "flinch too early" if you're town.

Fair enough, I did get pretty antsy but I really thought DGB would retract earlier if it was a reaction test. I don't think the number of votes on me matters if there's a guilty, since I need to claim at some point, but yeah.

[Infinity 324]

also dgb is hard town

Why?

who in this game has a decent amount of experience playing with gamma (3+ games)?

Me but too long ago to be relevant I think

[Infinity 324]

I don't think the number of votes on me matters if there's a guilty

It matters if you're the town's primary form of investigation. I mean, I would expect that play from a noob...

Not

really

sure why you're pushing so much on this point since I'm not getting limmed as an un-cc'ed investigative, but sure. The claim was bad.

[Infinity 324]

Am I missing something? We don't know the setup so nobody ccing you doesn't rule out you being the scum

I mean sure, a normal could theoretically have no investigatives, but it's unlikely enough that we can wait until massclaim to figure it out.

[Infinity 324]

Me but too long ago to be relevant I think

how long ago is too long ago?

About 3 years, gamma's playstyle has changed a lot since then

I have one recently completed game with him but that's it

[Infinity 324]

@Infinity - I don't want to get too bogged down in mechanics discussion but is your logic basically that there's usually only 1 investigative TPR therefore if nobody else is claiming it then it must be you?

Something like that, yeah. Basically, the expectation should be we have 1 investigative PR, or maybe multiple gated ones. Not saying I'm confirmed town, but the cases where I'm scum should be unlikely enough fypov that they get resolved during massclaim.

[Infinity 324]

Why are you pushing aside the fact you could be scum fake claiming? It's not unlikely enough from our perspectives because you could just be scum claiming an easy result, that isn't that powerful of an investigative so even if there is an investigative role, it isn't necessarily a counterclaim. You also specifically stated that you thought DGB had a guilty on you, so why did you just say the expectation should be we have 1 investigative PR?

I think gunsmith could be reasonable, any other investigative is unlikely unless they’re heavily gated (1-shot or something)

[Infinity 324]

and DGB does NOT look townie.

Don’t think she looks particularly towny overall, but the fakeclaim I think is more likely to come from town

[Infinity 324]

It feels like anything I say is being interpreted as unreasonable in this game. Multiple powerful investigatives in a mini normal or no powerful investigatives is really not the norm and I don’t know why people would think it is.

[Infinity 324]

It feels like anything I say is being interpreted as unreasonable in this game. Multiple powerful investigatives in a mini normal or no powerful investigatives is really not the norm and I don’t know why people would think it is.

You specifically stated 1 earlier

Read my post again? I said multiple powerful investigatives or no powerful investigative isn't a reasonable thing to expect. 1 powerful investigative is. When someone claims a guilty on you and doesn't retract, you tend to consider things outside the norm. But the norm is 1 investigative.

[Infinity 324]

He could have imagined that I tracked him... but surely not to the kill since he claims to have targeted you?

Already said I thought you were gunsmith

[Infinity 324]

Taylor if there's scum outside {n_m, A50, VP, DGB, koba} who is it most likely to be?

[Infinity 324]

Don't think FL is scum cause I think he would've killed. I think I'm happy with that pool. I want to talk to andres about the n_m read.

[Infinity 324]

Why?

[Infinity 324]

Why?

random.org really likes A50?

No but seriously why

[Infinity 324]

vp why do u think i dont buy that shit?
infinity cares more abt survival than solving lol

How the hell is this not true for you koba. Shut up about the people SRing you and scumhhunt.

[Infinity 324]

Koba you realize simple succeeds on mafia goons and fails on town PRs? You really shouln't have claimed that

That's an example of a weak enough investigative that I'd buy koba is town here.

[Infinity 324]

Good going guys, we managed to out 3 town PRs by day 2.

[Infinity 324]

Yeah I supposed he's statistically a bit more likely to be scum now, since you are town, but I've had a strong TR on him for a while so

[Infinity 324]

if* you are town

[Infinity 324]

Koba did being a PR affect your play d1?

Don't think mark needs to claim btw

[Infinity 324]

i am good at vanilla telling when im pr

Explain more? What did you do to vanilla tell

[Infinity 324]

Huh

The reason I unvoted you was because I thought your play made sense with being a PR. You stopped being towny so suddenly d1 that I thought you were afraid of being NKed. Now I'm not sure

[Infinity 324]

What are u confused abt?

I'm not sure whether you're town. My gut says you're scummy but I'm not sure why scum!you would claim there.

[Infinity 324]

why would i be like "lol mark ignored me so conf scum"

The thing is, that doesn't make him too much more likely to be scum.

PEdit: well cause of koba's claim we know that mark is PR as well

[Infinity 324]

i need andres cause the lack of critical thinking is actually wearing on my brain

Never played with andres before, but agreed lol

[Infinity 324]

Koba looking through their ISO trying to find a way to make their reads look somewhat consistent

[Infinity 324]

Someone answer this. Why would scum!koba out the fact they found a PR and who it is.

Yeah that's what I'm wondering too.

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: koba

[Infinity 324]

Infinity, why vote here may I ask

They keep stalling when they're asked to give reads. I feel like as a chat mafia player they should be used to giving reads right away. Taylor gave some decent reasons why they might claim early as scum, not totally sold but it's a good place for my vote for now.

[Infinity 324]

Koba who do you SR I’m very confused

Im at work I'll post reads later

Readslist was in 1021, 6 hours later

@Koba can you explain your read progression on me? Have you townread/nullread me at all this game?

im about to go to sleep but basically nullscum>town>flavor subs in>scum iirc

Explain the part where you started SRing me when you get up.

i have the post in my copypaste, but before i post it, can you tell me why you're asking me to prove to you t hat you're scum?

ok so i had this solve wrt your slot and math slot.

math!scum implied you!town.

im pretty sure u are scum otherwise.

flavor coming in and towntelling is leaning me on u being scum.

your engagement once flavor came in also at the same time felt fake and "participatory" i.e. u were just trying to look like u were there.

That's a super fluffy way to say you read them and math as a TvS

Or maybe i was trying to skip the "why" that would obviously come if i did say that

Making it seem like it was a long thing they had to type up

Im drinking tonight and playing osrs im gonna pop in later and give my drunk reads

And these never came. Like they've been doing this the entire game.

[Infinity 324]

leantown: infinity

Lol somehow I'm town now

[quote="In post 2419, DkKoba"back to null bc i honestly realized i just cant read them[/quote]

"Realized"? They've produced no content, when did you think you could read them?

We can lim this now

[Infinity 324]

yall think its not odd that no one that was scumreading me died and still are trying to despite all the evidence still want to elim me???

fucking bullshit

"Waah we tried to frame infinity and no one fell for it!!"

[Infinity 324]

taylor is maybe the most blatant mafia ive ever seen in a game. both jackson and infinity are unable to even give a read on her rn.

I'm hard TRing taylor

yall think its not odd that no one that was scumreading me died and still are trying to despite all the evidence still want to elim me???

fucking bullshit

"Waah we tried to frame infinity and no one fell for it!!"

who the fuck is we????

You and your scumbuddies

[Infinity 324]

can everyone try to minimize the toxicity in this game? its way too high and it takes some of the fun out of it because it feels like some people are genuinely out to hurt people irl and arent just poking fun at friends in a game on the internet.

Yeah I'll try to be better about that.

I'm not sure it'll be convincing to anyone, but 1677 explains pretty well why I TR taylor, also on page 72 and 73 it felt like she was really trying to solve the game with me. She's seen how much I rely on engaging with people as town, as scum she could just let me be lost which makes it a lot more likely I get mislimmed.

I explained why I scumread you earlier. Basically since early and d1 you've done nothing solvy and your reads have been all over the place. Having all-over-the-place reads makes sense for town, but normally you'd have them readily available since they change from moment to moment. Instead, you've consistently stalled on readslists too often for it to be a coincidence. Also scum can have a hard time keeping up the appearance of solviness so looking solvy early on and dropping off is a scumtell. When you softed PR, I thought trying to avoid the NK could've been a reason but clearly it wasn't.

[Infinity 324]

Cause you forgot who you SRed and TRed lol

[Infinity 324]

those pages are also why i started to townread you. it feels strange though because when i scumread you no one was biting but then as i townread you suddenly other people started scumreading you. and VP should be pushing me today for that. wheres the pressure?

Explain why VP should be pushing you?

[Infinity 324]

Honestly I'm done with this argument anyway. I should go to sleep soon.

[Infinity 324]

being an experienced mod

Where are you getting this from?

It is true that it's possible mark is a VT but in any case, if koba is town, it gives scum information they didn't need to know.

[Infinity 324]

NOTE: I already UNVOTEED DGB (i.e. this is not an invitation to reignite the wagon on her, nor is it a chainsaw of DkK. I just want to understand the difference from your PoV)

Why did you unvote DGB/what are your thoughts on her now?

[Infinity 324]

Koba, your basic premise is that you are very good at reading VTs and that's how you know your target on mark is scum? Were you reading him as a binary choice of VT or scum yesterday?

[Infinity 324]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: DGB

Koba wagon is going nowhere, though I very much still believe they're scum.

[Infinity 324]

I agree with taylor that it was not a great play as scum or town. The claim was slightly town indicative but not enough to make them conf town or anything.

[Infinity 324]

VP, where are you at with this game? Willing to admit I could be wrong on some reads.

[Infinity 324]

Whatever thoughts you have. Right now I'm thinking about how scum would be behaving in a gamestate like this. I'm thinking the scum are doing a good job at not being suspected and/or controlling the discussion, explaining why town is kinda all over the place. That would point me toward you being scum. But I could be wrong and I wanna know what you think.

[Infinity 324]

I'm thinking the scum are doing a good job at not being suspected and/or controlling the discussion, explaining why town is kinda all over the place.

Might surprise you that I agree with this.

I do think you should take another look at Taylor here. Her play is grimy in terms of bad intentions imo.

I can look into taylor again, I'm just confused about why she would pocket me as scum on d1 when I was likely to be limmed? I understand you don't like her progression on me, but I don't see the scum motivation for it. She townread me when I started putting in effort and I knew that was going to happen because I think that's what she was looking for based on meta. I also think that wondering why you didn't push her today is a towny thing to point out if anything. Yeah you said you'd be away but looking to see when people follow up and when they don't is a towny instinct.

Who do you think are the scum who are controlling the discussion/not being suspected here?

[Infinity 324]

If you are town, finding a reason to flop off the wagon that is going to flip town is good for scum. Makes analysis later much harder. Both of you ended up on geraintm later, but that was also after I pressured her.

i think VP is implying that my progression on you comes from us both being scum, i.e. i scumread you to distance from you all day, but then when other people started scumreading you i backed off so youd be less likely to die. its a pre-flip associative read that ignores the actual context of why my read on you changed.

That's possible too, but I don't think you both absolutely have to be scum in this scenario

Well either I was going to die without her vote or I wasn't. If taylor is my scumbuddy and thinks my lim is inevitable, then she should try to bus. If I'm town and I'm going to die anyway, she wants to be off the wagon. These statements don't really go together imo. The way I see it, my lim wasn't inevitable since there were wagons on koba and gerain at the time. Her unvote made it less likely for me to get limmed, which isn't great for scum fmpov. Also, if koba is town, that means all 3 wagons were on town and none of this really matters since no scum was in danger.

I'm not sure how you think me and taylor are controlling the discussion, I've had a wagon on me since late d1 and people generally aren't listening to me. People also aren't really listening to taylor either and she didn't post a ton d1. Both of us are the only players who suspect you.

[Infinity 324]

{n_m, A50, VP, DGB, koba}

I keep coming back to this PoE.

[Infinity 324]

Fun fact: no-elims increase the likelihood of a mafia victory.

[Infinity 324]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: VP

Really feeling this, if y'all think I'm town you should sheep me

[Infinity 324]

Part of it was you bringing up the gerain tunnel again. It makes perfect sense as a scum tunnel because there wasn't really anything to trigger it and he was going after an easy target. Also his view that you and I are controlling the gamestate doesn't match up with his confidence in e.g. 2202, 2268, and 2271. It reminded me of when in haunted village I asked isis what her view of the gamestate was and she said "Scum are probably lurking but I'm gonna hammer noraa anyway". I feel like scum (esp. stronger scum) are likely to pretend they have a coherent view of the gamestate but it doesn't really make sense. Sometimes I just get strong scumvibes after I engage with people and they're usually right. I think town is more likely to do the think where you bounce reads off each other/float ideas and it feels natural whereas VP feels like he's just trying to convince me.

[Infinity 324]

I'm basically being forced to compromise yeet you because of my lack of influence

This too. I can't imagine VP doesn't know he has influence especially after leading a lim. He even called for doc protection if gerain flips scum. I think he's saying he lacks influence as an excuse to avoid accountability.

PEdit: read my post again

[Infinity 324]

Why is jackson scum? (@everyone who thinks that) Everytime they post it reaffirms my townread.

[Infinity 324]

Fuck man, I had a whole plan to try and get scum!them to claim PR so VT claim would be a town-tell but they just threw if town

Shoot DK

Super town

Someone answer this. Why would scum!koba out the fact they found a PR and who it is.

idk u tell me bc ur voting me (wish i had a clown emoji for u)

Shut up I'm trying to see if you're scum or just stupid town.

@Taylor.
a) Where's the WIFOM in doing that, and what use would it have for scum to wifom there outside of just saying they found a PR or something.

b) If they already found the PR, why would they need to rolefish? And kill who? Mark? That's doing the complete opposite

c) This might be the only fair counter to that.

Solvy. If they're scum they don't need to pretend to solve you since they've written you off as scum.

taylor is maybe the most blatant mafia ive ever seen in a game. both jackson and infinity are unable to even give a read on her rn.

THEN EXPLAIN YOUR GODDAMN READ!

There's no use in telling us that someone is scum if you can't convince anyone else that they are, get off your high-horse and actually contribute to the town instead of being a literal fucking brick that attacks anything that shows any sign of attacking you.

Towny frustration at being unable to read you

Post 1100 and that whole page never comes from scum imo. I don't see how JV is ever scum here.

[Infinity 324]

Some things just aren't fakeable imo.

[Infinity 324]

Taylor's effort to engage with VP here is ++town

[Infinity 324]

There's really no scum motivation for engaging with your scumreads. If you care about meta, I don't think scum!taylor can easily engage like this without it coming off faked. Even if not, I think taylor should be pretty obviously town by this point.

[Infinity 324]

There's really no scum motivation for engaging with your scumreads.

Scum motivation would be to shake me off wouldn't it? I'm the major person calling for her yeet today. Winning me over dissolves any pressure there. Plus, bad faith arguments was the very thing I called her out for. Fixing that undercuts my point quite directly.

You two are either working in tandem or one of you is getting duped here.

But she's pretty clearly sorting/(pretending to sort) you rather than trying to get a townread. She's not addressing your points on her play, she's being proactive and questioning you. Yes she could be trying to appear "reasonable", but I feel like she's really giving you the opportunity to undercut her push if she's scum and you're town.

[Infinity 324]

Flavor what would I need to do to convince you you're wrong about VP?

[Infinity 324]

Is anyone else kind of feeling like VP and Marky Mark kind of blend together?

What do you mean?

[Infinity 324]

People pushing NM as ??? or similar definitely have scum within them. Not Mafia is not unreadable.

How do you read them? lol

I actually tried to meta n_m a bit ago and found no real pattern in their town vs. scum games.

[Infinity 324]

n_m, what's your read on koba?

[Infinity 324]

I really don't like all this mark suspicion that's suddenly happening

[Infinity 324]

I'm a detective, vig claim was a joke

[Infinity 324]

Why do you say that?

[Infinity 324]

Taylor is so transparently town.

[Infinity 324]

Quitting mafia.

[Infinity 324]

This is objectively false yes? The choice really was between Koba and Geraintm, but enough Koba voters moved to Geraintm to ensure that one went through.

I had a decent chance of being limmed d1. If koba is town, scum don't care which wagon they're on.

[Infinity 324]

Yeah, I guess I feel like the votes at the very end of the day weren't super AI because they were just compromise votes. I still hold that the idea that scum is more likely to be on gerain relies on koba being scum.

[Infinity 324]

Have you ever seen a mini normal with no major investigatives?

[Infinity 324]

Have you ever seen a mini normal with no major investigatives?

whats up im here

Your role is pretty weak.

You think I’m going to mindlessly believe your claim because Mini Normals typically have Investigatives? What kind of argument is that? As if you could never fake Claim under pressure.

I really thought site meta was to leave alive un-cc'ed investigatives. Yeah it's

possible

fypov there's isn't one but that's pretty rare and can be resolved during massclaim. This really isn't that complicated.

[Infinity 324]

I've clearly been sorting people, discussing reads, pushing them when necessary. I've tried to engage with people and find common ground. Yet somehow I'm obvious enough scum that I should be limmed despite being an uncc'ed investigative. Someone make this make sense.

[Infinity 324]

This reeks of scum that actually KNOWS.

I thought you were scumreading taylor?

[Infinity 324]

Whatever gets you to the correct reads I guess

[Infinity 324]

Whatever gets you to the correct reads I guess

Why thank you

I am voting you

1 wrong read is better than 2

[Infinity 324]

Have you ever seen a mini normal with no major investigatives?

Why are you claiming there isn’t any investigatives?

You’re acting like everyone has claimed

If there was a strong investigative, they'd cc me. It's not a complex argument I'm making.

[Infinity 324]

No they would not.

This is bad logic.

Why? Everyone keeps telling me this and I actually don't get it

[Infinity 324]

A Cop in the game wouldn’t just instantly make you scum on a setup level.

Are you joking?

[Infinity 324]

Why can’t a cop and a detective play in the same game? Especially a limited cop.

I guess site meta radically changed in the few years I've been gone? Full cop and detective in the same setup seems beyond absurd. Even-night or 2-shot is still pushing it. I once remember someone arguing doc and 1-shot BP are counterclaims, I wouldn't go that far but I almost never see multiple of a strong role of a similar type in a mini normal. The site meta I know is that you don't lim an un-cc'ed investigative/protective.

[Infinity 324]

You probably need to work on your assuming then.

If you run around like that, I will hard take advantage of it if I ever roll scum against you. You give a lot of openings for scum to charge in if you’re town. If you’re scum, eh, it’s solid acting like you’re doing something. My gut says you’re just town assuming incorrectly left and right.

Can you give links for setups that have had multiple strong roles of the same type because I thought that was a huge no-no.

[Infinity 324]

Detective is incredibly low power.

I’m not gonna go searching, I’m on my phone. I care that little about proving it too, it’s that insignificant. I said Cop, and that was probably a mistake, because you’re gonna get hung up on Full Cop.

Tracker, follower, voyeur are all investigatives. Watcher.

anything with weak, loyal, disloyal modifiers.

Your role is Detective. That likely means you can guilty exactly one person.

If scum have an Ascetic, or something else it means you have even less power than you thought.

Yeah I guess I have pretty strict expectations for a mini normal. There are a very limited subset of roles which would make sense as either the only investigative or in the same setup as a detective. Tracker doesn't make sense with detective. Follower and voyeur couldn't exist on their own. 2-shot or even/odd-night investigative could maybe make sense, but ehh. Masons could maybe make sense, but masons with no investigative is still pretty rare. I don't think I'm that low power, it's significantly more powerful than a tracker anyway. I may be wrong, site meta could've changed, but that's my setup spec based on all the mini normals I've played on this site.

[Infinity 324]

No we're just doing setup spec, I'm saying if there's another investigative it would cc me, everyone else is saying I'm an idiot.

[Infinity 324]

Cause I think it would be ridiculous to lim me as an un-cc'ed investigative (but apparently I'm dumb)

[Infinity 324]

i pretty much always mindmeld with A50 (it even helped me to trick A50 when i was scum). but A50 is on the same wavelength as me to the extent here that im wondering if hes just looking through my posts, saying what he thinks (and is right to think) id want him to say, and posting it to pocket me. but even typing that out sounds kinda loony. so a50 is just town. and VP is scummier for trying to mindmeld with me and make me question my townread of A50.

Explain your VP townread again?

[Infinity 324]

what VP townread?

Sorry didn't mean to quote that, was asking flavor.

Koba is looking town again somehow.

[Infinity 324]

Koba is either town who hasn't been giving a shit for large portions of the game or scum who only feels like "looking town" in certain positions. There were a few places (early d1, recently) when they've been really transparent with their thoughts, and others where they've mostly just been pushing on slots without explaining much reasoning and doing a lot of discrediting. This play pattern feels more like scum to me (looking town takes effort) but I'd be interested to know what others think. I do think the claim was towny but I don't want to write them off as town just for that.

[Infinity 324]

Ok I'll keep that in mind.

Be 100% honest with me, why were you stalling with your readslists?

[Infinity 324]

Explain your VP townread again?

@Flavor

VP is my only confident scumread. As for taylor, sometimes I get soulreads on people and they just aren't wrong. Idk how to explain it any other way. I agree that DGB has made some towny posts, so I could maybe compromise on her. I just hate that two of the major lim options for today are me and someone who I can't ever see as scum.