Mini Normal 2187: PIFiMDM [game over!]

[ben dover123]

Hi! Here's to a fun game!

[ben dover123]

Oh boy we have an innocent child already.

Glad to be playing with Gamma Emerald and Lunar Martian again, for the rest of you I hope we can get along nicely. Pretty excited to be playing with PenguinPower too

RQS:

Best game as town or scum?

Nicknames?

How is your activity going to be this game?

(feel free to add along)

Answers:

I have 2 completed games, both vt, Newbie 2041 and 2043. If you want my best game out of the 2, it would have to be 2043.

ben is fine if you don't want to call me bendover

Pretty high.

[ben dover123]

VOTE: NoPowerOverMe

Ben, do you always open with random questions, and why do you choose to do so?

Yeah, I have started a trend of using RQS to know people better. Especially the self-meta part it gives me tools to read people that are hard to read, especially in these bigger games. Although, it's likely people will be more aware of self-meta here so it's probably a useless question but it's worth asking.

Wagoning active players is a sound strategy, let's do it.

Don't be so defeated already

[ben dover123]

Are you suggesting wagons on inactive players are preferable?

Yes.

VOTE: NPOM

[ben dover123]

Why are you so interested in RQS but think that lurking is ok?

Who said I thought lurking was ok? Only scum tries to hang the inactive lhf's.

[ben dover123]

Why are you so interested in RQS but think that lurking is ok?

Who said I thought lurking was ok? Only scum tries to hang the inactive lhf's.

Not from my perspective. I'm more comfortable playing with high activity players I can sort.

Are you suggesting wagons on inactive players are preferable?

Yes.

It sounded a lot more like you wanted to hang inactive players rather than work with the active players.

[ben dover123]

I never said anything about hanging. But if it comes down to pressuring active players or lurkers, yes, I have a preference.

Whoops, I meant wagon there. Still, having only a preference on wagoning the inactive players isn't a optimal preference. Everyone should be pressured if need be, whether it is a active player or a lurker. Pressuring lurkers will fail when met with a powerwolf.

Pedit:

They both suck.

How would

you

have the game start?

Lol. I could bet that NPOM's optimal game is a thread where people push wagons on anyone who is inactive, instead of RVS.

[ben dover123]

UNVOTE: NPOM

Looks like I read NPOM's posts wrong, all I see here is a sub-optimal preference on who to push.

[ben dover123]

There are plenty of things to talk about besides random questions that people answer to try and make themselves look good.

Like what?

[ben dover123]

Like what we're talking about right now

But...what we are talking about now came from the RQS and RVS? We had to start somewhere and we did, now this is where we are at.

[ben dover123]

Point is, RQS and RVS is how we get to this discussion, we can't get this discussion from thin air. So, it is a necessity in games.
If you think it isn't a necessity I'd love to play a game with no RQS/RVS and we can see how the game progresses.

[ben dover123]

What are your reads?

You expect reads 3 pages into the game?

I guess when fire was invented, you said, "we always did it without fire before, why do we need it now?"

I don't think this analogy is a accurate representation of what we are talking about.

[ben dover123]

Y'see, maybe the world is better with RVS and we don't need to change that fact.

[ben dover123]

Yep, that's what they said about fire.

Well, I think what is different about the fire analogy is that RVS is needed. Before RVS there was nothing. Before fire, we just couldn't do things as efficiently. Big difference.

[ben dover123]

UNVOTE: NPOM[/unvote

I don't like this
put your vote back

Your vote on NPOM is fake so you can't talk.

I do, I'm trying to do something new, and you're resisting.

What do you mean by "you're resisting"?

Should be self evident. He's acting like RVS has to happen just because it's always been that way, and moreover, that if you're against it, it's worth wagoning someone over.

Lol. RVS is a necessity, and if you are against it, you are against it, but I was wagoning you for other reasons (You wanting to wagon the inactives).

[ben dover123]

He's the one that made the issue that RVS is mandatory.

But how am I resisting to what you are trying to do? I said I'd gladly like to try it too, it's just a known fact that RVS is a necessity in games to start.

[ben dover123]

Actually, in the forum I previously came from, there was no RVS.

Ah, let me guess, MU? There is a reason why they have no RVS, and it's because cycles are 2/1. Those guys are tryhards

In MS, we have time to do RVS and RQS, and it makes the game much more richer and information bountiful, because without RVS these games would be dry as sandpaper.

I'll make a move though, because I agree that now this RVS talk isn't doing anything towards gamestate.

VOTE: Elements

Wanted me to wagon NPOM when he wasn't even on said wagon. Something is up with that.

[ben dover123]

Sorry for the misgendering, it's just habit and I have to stop.

NOPM doesn't count? It's NPOM so you aren't voting NPOM.

[ben dover123]

Sorry for the misgendering, it's just habit and I have to stop.

NOPM doesn't count? It's NPOM so you aren't voting NPOM.

[ben dover123]

It counted? Well, damn.
Either way, I don't like how you tried to reach to get me back on the NPOM wagon when I already expressed that I didn't want too.

[ben dover123]

why not?

Because there was no reason for me to wagon NPOM. I unvoted and said that me and NPOM had a misunderstanding, and all I saw was a sub-optimal preference by him.

[ben dover123]

so in effect, it was as if I had asked you to vote NPOM with you having never voted them

Not so. My votes on NPOM counted and you were trying to edge me back on the wagon.

[ben dover123]

How would you have responded if I had asked you to vote NPOM is you had never done so before?

It definitely wouldn't have looked so bad on you, I would have likely looked into it and deny joining the wagon.

[ben dover123]

what makes it look so bad?
that I typoed NPOM's name?

No, of course not that you typoed NPOM. It's the fact that I stated why I unvoted and then you tried and reached out to me to get back on the NPOM wagon with no evidence.

[ben dover123]

Do you expect me to have evidence at this point in the game?

Then why do you expect me to join the NPOM wagon again if you have nothing to convince me?

[ben dover123]

5 pages already? You people are nuts.

VOTE: dannflor

Pretty confident in this vote.

No, just no. We don't need these jokes right now.

[ben dover123]

tbh that post by Lunar is stupid but I'd like to give him some more time. Lunar had this kind of behavior in 2043 too, if I recall correctly.

[ben dover123]

?
Also before people start speedwagoning Lunar I'll say that he is also very limbaity. His behavior in 2043 sent him straight to the lynch D1.

Pedit:

How long did it take him to be productive in that game?

I would say read 2043...
but no I'll save you time because that game was a actual meme.
He...doesn't really get too productive? Not sure how to cap his playstyle because I kind of forgot but as I said he is very very limbaity.

[ben dover123]

Well, I could probably say it like this:

Lunar can show gamesolve potential and productivity if he has a cool head, but once he gets into a argument he starts blowing up. When we had him at E-1 during 2043 he kinda resorted to emotions.

[ben dover123]

Although we were all heated D1, I think he still gets riled up sometimes.
Lunar can catch on to stuff and I think the only place that he showed a immense lack of knowledge in was when he was faced with reading the newbie that was completely lost. As such, he SR'ed said newbie because he held the newbie to too high standards.

I appreciate not wanting to lynch town, but there is also the possibility he is scum and do you really want him in ELLO?

Ehhhh...at some point you may have to hang him due to the fact that he can get really elimbaity. But I haven't seen his lategame play, I'm just basing this off D1 play.

Also town won that game I see, even though he was town.

?? no we lost

[ben dover123]

Basically what I am saying is that Lunar can sometimes make these stupid posts so stuff that is stupid but not fully scummy shouldn't be treated as scummy.
If Lunar does make a scummy posts though, then there is an excuse to vote him.

[ben dover123]

I wouldn't be so loose about putting people that far down on the list; actual fabricated reads should go ahead of mutual reading and you could probably put us in the middle but not guaranteed at the bottom.

[ben dover123]

Basically what I am saying is that Lunar can sometimes make these stupid posts so stuff that is stupid but not fully scummy shouldn't be treated as scummy.
If Lunar does make a scummy posts though, then there is an excuse to vote him.

I’m not looking for “excuses” to vote anyone. I feel like LM’s entrance was wack, 5 pages isn’t bad by any measure imo and he made a dumb joke. He doesn’t know how to act rn, which might be newbish or general awkwardness but the feeling when I saw it was scum with a bad entrance.

Well, excuses wasn't really the word I was wanting, more like if LM makes a scummy posts that isn't stupid then it's a scummy post.

Yeah that's the kind of stuff I'm talking about. LM makes a lot of newbish posts and you will likely see a couple of them.

So what I'm hearing is that Lunar is a goober, I'm a Hectic alt, and that wagons are a touchy subject.

Lmao Kazyan knows what's up

[ben dover123]

I think that's what LM is trying to do, he had a really hard time fitting in with us in 2043.
I can agree that adding in the page count is rather awkward from LM's end, however the awkwardness from trying to fit in should be naturally viewed as newbishness, not a direct sign of scummy.
I disagree with anyone who says that LM's awkwardness from trying to fit in or the stupid vote is scummy: by my experience, LM is just like that and such should be viewed as NAI. What isn't NAI, however, is the fact that LM knew that we were far into the game and still he joked around like RVS was still a thing.

[ben dover123]

VOTE: Lunar Martian

And why the change?

[ben dover123]

Would be nice if we let them respond instead of giving convenient excuses.

Just a thought.

I'm not giving excuses, this awkwardness that you guys are talking about is from a newbie rather than scummy awkwardness.
What is weird is how LM continued to joke when he knew that we were past RVS by page 5.

[ben dover123]

I think his eventual response would be more genuine if he didn’t have someone rushing to his defense immediately

Did I rush to his defense? No. I just said this:

tbh that post by Lunar is stupid but I'd like to give him some more time. Lunar had this kind of behavior in 2043 too, if I recall correctly.

Basically what I am saying is that Lunar can sometimes make these stupid posts so stuff that is stupid but not fully scummy shouldn't be treated as scummy.
If Lunar does make a scummy posts though, then there is an excuse to vote him.

I wasn't even defending him up to that point, I was just saying that this kind of behavior wasn't enough to get me to vote him and I wanted to let everyone know that this kind of behavior isn't directly scummy coming from Lunar. Only until people started equating Lunar's awkwardness in the post to actual scumminess was when I had to take action.

[ben dover123]

Why not let him respond before you take the weight of the world upon yourself here? A simple disclaimer would have functioned but you’re full on going at bat for him here it seems.

I'm just very concerned that LM will get misunderstood again and will end up getting speedwagoned like in 2043. For a competent playerlist, LM is definitely one of the easiest targets to miselim, so when people are calling out LM being scummy when it's just his game is bad and I want to make a point that LM has done this as town.

[ben dover123]

Well the point is made.
Any reads?

Surprisingly there hasn't been that many people that have talked.

I'm getting town vibes from you, Elements is slightly scummy, and Zito is...interesting. I'm not liking the vibes I'm getting from him but that may be a playstyle thing.

[ben dover123]

As much as I have been talking with NPOM, he hasn't shown anything AI yet.
Kazyan, LM, and 2nd are all out there still.
Alchemist...kinda feels like he attacked Elements in spite of me but that's just a guess and otherwise he is null.

[ben dover123]

Also I don't like elements voting limbaity Lunar.

Yeah that pinged me pretty hard too. Zito's vote isn't the greatest either but looking at his approach all game it seems like he could be this kind of guy.

[ben dover123]

I don't have any solid reads because I'm drunk on that Noob Juice, but the assessment of Elements seems plausible based on similar behaviors I've observed in Mafia-adjacent games.

UNVOTE: Papa Zito

VOTE: Elements

Ew
this vote is disgusting
VOTE: Kazyan

[ben dover123]

Either way, 5 pages in and you shouldn't be voting the confirmed townie as some kind of joke. That kind of behavior is just plain awkward.
But, if you want me to leave you on your own then so be it.
@Datisi yeet

[ben dover123]

VOTE: ben dover
LM’s response seemed okay.

What's with this? I remember that you had a townread on me before, so what changed?

[ben dover123]

VOTE: Hayker

And what is this OMGUS?

[ben dover123]

VOTE: ben dover
LM’s response seemed okay.

What's with this? I remember that you had a townread on me before, so what changed?

Recent events overruled that read. Your play is blatantly whiteknighting.

What's whiteknighting?

Also, if Lunar's response is NAI then what do you think of his first post now?

[ben dover123]

As much as I have been talking with NPOM, he hasn't shown anything AI yet.
Kazyan, LM, and 2nd are all out there still.
Alchemist...kinda feels like he attacked Elements in spite of me but that's just a guess and otherwise he is null.

What do you mean “in spite of you?”

Hold on, I have to talk to Gamma. Will be back with you in a second though.

Why do you assume malicious intentions from Ben rather than just a new player trying to be helpful and help a fellow newbie? Sell me.

The level of investment. I think town would have put the counter evidence on the table and left it at that but he dug in his heels to protect you. He has some level of personal motive to defend you that I doubt town has rn.

I'm not saying Lunar is town, I'm saying that what everyone is SR'ing him for is wrong, however I do believe LM's first post still pings awkward in the sense that the Dannflor vote is kind of weird considering the context.

[ben dover123]

I think that's what LM is trying to do, he had a really hard time fitting in with us in 2043.
I can agree that adding in the page count is rather awkward from LM's end, however the awkwardness from trying to fit in should be naturally viewed as newbishness, not a direct sign of scummy.
I disagree with anyone who says that LM's awkwardness from trying to fit in or the stupid vote is scummy: by my experience, LM is just like that and such should be viewed as NAI. What isn't NAI, however, is the fact that LM knew that we were far into the game and still he joked around like RVS was still a thing.

I have been approaching LM's post this way all along, so maybe it looks different in your eyes but I'm saying the same thing I have been saying.

[ben dover123]

As much as I have been talking with NPOM, he hasn't shown anything AI yet.
Kazyan, LM, and 2nd are all out there still.
Alchemist...kinda feels like he attacked Elements in spite of me but that's just a guess and otherwise he is null.

What do you mean “in spite of you?”

Ok, back to this.
I feel like I looked over the Element's thing enough to the point that Elements didn't even want to speak of it again, and then you came in and argued for the exact same thing. It could be possible you missed my argument but attacking Elements for the same thing felt like you were trying to push a read that I was pushing, but as I said there isn't any evidence of such and it's just a guess.

[ben dover123]

Problem being that if we put Lunar in a sink or swim environment, he will sink as either alignment, so it hardly matters. If we can keep him up on the surface we will get more than if he just straight up sinks to the bottom first thing.

[ben dover123]

I think a sink-or-swim atmosphere would be more apt to revealing his alignment versus what you were doing.

Awkward people sink. A lot.

True. But I don’t think it likely in this case.

And what makes you say this? Lunar is very lhf and his playstyle hasn't seemed to change in the slightest since the last time we met.

Pedit:

Alright Ben you can’t tell me I copied you on this one. Lol

? Wasn't going too. I guess it makes sense if you just straight up thought Elements was weird because he really is this game.

[ben dover123]

Well ben had put into the thread that LM tends to be awkward, so we can use that to not jump to conclusions

???
LM is awkward and that awkwardness got him to sink right to the bottom in 2043.

[ben dover123]

Hum. Maybe we got caught in a mix up with Kazyan, I have another person I want to look at now anyways.

VOTE: NPOM

If I feel like someone is pocketing me, either they are or I'm high, and right now I feel pretty clearheaded so NPOM is pocketing me.

[ben dover123]

VOTE: Elements

Ben is my top town read and seems like he knows what he is doing.

Yeah, if he doesn't have any reads why vote?

VOTE: Kazyan

After Lunar pointed it out, I was willing to take a look back at these two posts and yeah I'm not comfortable with NPOM now.

[ben dover123]

I like the drive in the above post but let's not try and interaction analysis before a flip, please.

[ben dover123]

The reason that interaction analysis is bad before we have any mod confirmed evidence (hardclaims, flips, innocent townies, etc.) is because you are very likely to encounter bias if you find a interaction that makes the most sense to you. This is bad since without one guaranteed or near guaranteed alignment, anything can really happen, and since interaction analysis is very powerful people can get sucked into the bias really easily and will never take a second look. Right now it is best to just make some good fabricated reads alone rather than in pairs or triplets of people.

[ben dover123]

Other than that I like the reads and they seem rather original from a newb town, so that's nice.

[ben dover123]

Like I said, I'm not pocketing, I'm townhunting. If you hate it so much I'll vote elsewhere.

VOTE: Elements

But I feel like the need to complement and then follow me is overdoing it, especially in Post #172 it sounded like you were blatantly following me, which I don't like. If you are townhunting, then who else do you have in mind?

[ben dover123]

Also what do you think of Kazyan? Tell me that you have made some new progression on Kaz if you are voting Elements now.

Pedit:

I don't do things in a quiet manner, that's something you'll just need to get used to.

Maybe so, but I'm still unsettled.

[ben dover123]

I was pushing because I wanted to see how LM handled the pressure. I’m trying to cultivate a playstyle out of something I tend to do inadvertently, which is doing strong pushes with the intent to place pressure on people to make them readable. I’m trying to make it so I don’t end up projecting false confidence when I do that, as well as seeing if I can finally figure out a way to kick my meta dependence.
Also I don’t recall you saying much in that regard before recently

I like this, but I still think LM makes awkward posts in different situations and he ends up sinking anyways.

[ben dover123]

I strongly disagree. But it really isn't important. What is important is that you're doing the same thing I called you out for there. You're overconfident and pushing things you know nothing about. And in this game its also making people think you're Mafia. Maybe you should chill out, friend.

In what way am I overconfident? Who thinks I'm Mafia besides Gamma?

But yes, I will accept your offer to take a small break.

[ben dover123]

activity post

I like Alchemist and Gamma
VOTE: penguin

Why vote Penguin here?

I've still got a large chunk of the player list to get through

I don't like this.

Can you break down and ELI5 what exactly Elements has done that is out of line with expected experienced townie behavior?

Exactly what Hayker said.

Does anyone

else

want to push me to steer the discussion back to Elements repeatedly, or are we done?

I don't like this either. You and Hayker aren't buddy-buddy's.

I'm feeling LM is town now from his recent posts.

[ben dover123]

I usually start by townhunting because scum tends to try to mask themselves whereas town can be easier to read on day 1.

Yeah this is how people should approach games. Scum are going to try and deceive you but town will townslip because they are just town.

[ben dover123]

^
What's so hard to read about me?

[ben dover123]

^
What's so hard to read about me?

When you post a question like this. I know this one isn't directed at me, but if I were to say why I find hard to read about you. This question throws me off, it comes off as more defensive of your actions, as opposed to trying to evaluate your read. Most of your posts come off very well, but then a post like this throws me off

Well, that's the point. I thought my posts were pretty clear up to this point and now I'm just curious to why HWS thinks I'm hard to read.

[ben dover123]

You seem particularly interested in votes rn PZ. Is there a particular reason for that, or am I seeing something that isn’t entirely there?

Votes are more powerful than words.

No wonder I got bad vibes from you. Our views are polar opposites.

Votes alone are nothing, words make up a vote. I believe in the technique of charisma and people could probably get everyone to sway on their side even if they didn't vote all game if they are charismatic enough.

[ben dover123]

Still quite unsettled about NPOM so my vote stays where it is.

I still disagree with Dannflor's assessment of Elements, but:

1) I would rather not do this again,
2) Discussing such old posts isn't advancing the play state or anything,
3) Putting pressure elsewhere will get us more information,
4) When we have a lot of newer arguments to deal with, there are bigger fish to fry, and
5) Even if we get down to brass tacks, the Elements wagon isn't happening.

With all that in mind: UNVOTE: Elements

Penguin is now talking, but not actually saying much. I don't like it.

I'm willing to call Alchemist and Hayker as light scumreads. I know I used Hayker's post as a template with which to lay out my thoughts, but that doesn't remotely mean Hayker is town.

I don't know which of the three would be productive to put some info-squeezing pressure on--Hayker, Alchemist, or Penguin. They all have one vote each.

The NPOM wagon is tempting, but I'd like more information from the sources that aren't giving as much of it; I might switch to NPOM if we get to 6 votes there.

So...I'll just pick one. VOTE: Penguin

ew
some sheeping off dan
also the last bold line pings me badly
like really badly
I'm just not sure if this is newbieness or scumminess

PP just chilling, I want to pressure other slots rn so I'll leave him be for a bit

I think Lunar is probably a cocky town right now, his behavior is towny but a tad bit arrogant as it is.

I want to reread Dan's post again because I don't completely get the Elements case but it would be good to know.

[ben dover123]

I'm not exactly a fan of this post, specifically the omnibus of reasons to unvote Elements. It looks like Kazyan is quite worried about the optics of that move.

100% correct. Previous posts by me have largely drawn an unexpected amount of shade because my rationale wasn't completely exhaustive, so I gave an exhaustive rationale this time. I'm comfortable with being called scummy for giving as much information as I can to the town.

wait what
I can't understand this post for my life

[ben dover123]

UNVOTE: NPOM

After rereading our RVS argument I find it towny because scum definitely don't need to get into such a dumb argument over something that doesn't do anything and has no towncred whatsoever.

The only reason I had against NPOM was that he looked like he was pocketing me and I was slightly paranoid about him but I remembered the time when clidd, the town doctor in 2043, pocketed me as town so I'll let it fly and I'll just make sure NPOM doesn't get in my head.

Lunar is overanalyzing like everything which is all towny.

Kazyan is still weird to me, I can't tell what is newbish behavior and what is scummy behavior, so for what it's worth I'll just say everything Kaz has posted to this point is NAI.

Getting a 2041 feel from Gamma rn...which is concerning to me but I'll let Gamma interact some more in this game before I start attaching strings to his meta.

Not sure where I should sort Alchemist, probably going to reread on him.

[ben dover123]

I mean, if Kazyan is going straight to the Normal queue that means they are probably confident in his abilities to play the game in general. However, they still might be a newbie in terms of play so I'll read their posts as if I'm reading a newbie's post. If Kazyan is competent then he will show that, but no competence has been exhibited by them so far.

[ben dover123]

*they
sorry for misgendering, I have to review my posts now with so many "they" in the site now

[ben dover123]

Lol the VC flavor
What's up with Alchemist?

[ben dover123]

Lol the VC flavor
What's up with Alchemist?

Do you mean me or the wagon on me?

The wagon on you.

[ben dover123]

Replacing ben dover123.

kinda lost interest in this game, unfortunately. that's all I can really say, plus the fact that I'm keep on falling behind and would likely get replaced out of inactivity anyways with this game