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[Andresvmb]

I’m in a good mood today, despite feeling a bit sick.

Hello everyone!

Let’s have fun.

VOTE: Datisi

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: datisi

I'm vanilla

This is Scum btw. Guaranteed.

[Andresvmb]

> "this is scum"
> *votes with said scum*

My vote was RVS. You need to calm down.

[Andresvmb]

I’m in a good mood today, despite feeling a bit sick.

Hello everyone!

Let’s have fun.

VOTE: Datisi

RVS is over.

My vote is serious. Datisi, Umlaut, Iconium and maybe Samantha also appear to have serious votes out.

Well my vote wasn’t serious. I just started reading. I don’t think you get to determine when RVS begins or ends but okay.

[Andresvmb]

> "this is scum"
> *votes with said scum*

My vote was RVS. You need to calm down.

i was poking fun at you for voting with a person you called scum...? why are you so defensive so quickly?

WE HAVE OFFICIALLY STARTED.

[Andresvmb]

Btw I’m not going to pretend to have reads on any of you. I trust my gut but c’mon now I can’t read energy in the first few posts.

[Andresvmb]

RVS is over.

My vote is serious.

Actually maybe Mr. Serious over here could be Scum. Seems overly focused on directing the chaotic town energy of the early game. Just a random thought that popped into my head.

[Andresvmb]

I have always found that in the chaos of the early game, a lot of very good clues come out for later analysis. I don’t necessarily want to direct or narrow lines of inquiry. And besides, I’m a slow starter. My early reads tend to be bad.

[Andresvmb]

If you still want an answer - I don’t think much of anything about the things you’ve pointed out. Without much broader context, they could all be nothing burgers. And no being disjointed isn’t necessarily bad. At least not in the early part of the game. It becomes easier to see who has an agenda and who doesn’t when the Town is all over the place actually.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: andres

Got ur back old guard

Wasn’t expecting anything different.

[Andresvmb]

Actually, for meta reasons I will not yet disclose, I think Mom has >random chance of being Scum.

[Andresvmb]

Serious? If so, why not vote your actual scumread?

Maybe because it wasn’t serious?

[Andresvmb]

73 - you misunderstand me. I’m not saying all that you’ve pointed to is irrelevant. I’m just saying that without waiting on players to do more AI things, I can’t really say if any of the things you pointed to mean anything. Is Samantha sheeping Datisi a sign that they’re buddies? Or is it Scum hiding behind a Town voting for another Town? How would I know? I’m not a mind reader. What I’m trying to get at is that I will let players make pushes and reveal a bit about themselves and then come up with an opinion trying to order the game. Trying to do it so early helps the Scum hide behind a bad Town push. Unless your accuracy is amazing to the point where in the first four pages you can tell me who the Scum are. I have yet to see that.

[Andresvmb]

I actually got some scum pings from 26 though.

To be fair, I highlighted it for a reason. I definitely wanted to get a reaction.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: datisi

I'm vanilla

This is Scum btw. Guaranteed.

no, this is vanilla


the next person who votes for datisi will be confirmed town

@LlamaFluff this is all I got as a response. I don’t like the insistence that they’re Vanilla. I’m a vacuum, it’s slightly anti-Town. Other than that? I don’t know. I haven’t figured out what to make of their attempt at forming a Town core of {Mom, Me, Them} and then leaving the thread.

[Andresvmb]

I’m a vacuum

In a vacuum*

[Andresvmb]

llama, for someone so determined to get us moving out of rvs and into The Serious Game... you've expressed one (1) read so far.

I really hate this post

i really like this post

Would you describe yourself as needlessly contrarian as Town?

[Andresvmb]

Also can we move on from Llama? They’re no fun, but they’re probably Town.

[Andresvmb]

basically I see a whole TvTvT shitfight on the last few pages with the exception of Rathe who I don't like.

Can you elaborate as to what leads you to conclude that there was a bunch of Town fighting other Town? Which players specifically are you talking about?

[Andresvmb]

basically I see a whole TvTvT shitfight on the last few pages with the exception of Rathe who I don't like.

Can you elaborate as to what leads you to conclude that there was a bunch of Town fighting other Town? Which players specifically are you talking about?

I’m guessing Llama and Datisi are two of them, yeah? Who is the third?

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: outwolfer

The only reason I don’t think you’re Scum is because you seem to want to be the fastest person to vote half the game. There’s some logic to what you’re pursuing but you’re coming across to me as almost not caring too much where you end up. Can’t say I find that super Towny either though.

[Andresvmb]

what do you mean

i care so much that's why i'm utilising my vote as much as i can

How many times have you seen me vote thus far? Just once, in RVS. You know why? Because I try to be more judicious with my pushes. I think it makes them more effective, since it signals true intent to want to execute someone. If you’re just running around voting everyone, why should I care that you’re voting me say if I’m Scum, when I can expect you to move onto the next shiny thing in about 5 minutes?

[Andresvmb]

Anyway, that’s mostly a play style thing I’ll admit. But not entirely.

[Andresvmb]

it's less about pressure and more about reactions

Okay but what reaction are you hoping to see? Like what would ping you as Scum?

[Andresvmb]

it's less about pressure and more about reactions

Okay but what reaction are you hoping to see? Like what would ping you as Scum?

If you don’t want to reveal because then nobody will react how you expect them to that’s fine I respect that. But I would argue that you aren’t going to get much of a reaction at all by being so erratic.

[Andresvmb]

yeah i don't want to reveal for that reason

we shall see who comes out on top with the better reads this game

I will warn you, I have a decent track record in this place. I’m sure Datisi can attest to that.

[Andresvmb]

yeah i don't want to reveal for that reason

we shall see who comes out on top with the better reads this game

I will warn you, I have a decent track record in this place. I’m sure Datisi can attest to that.

But anyway, I always manage to screw something up so you can count on me being horribly wrong in at least 1 way this game.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: samantha97

[Andresvmb]

Just to explain my vote really quickly - there’s a strategic component to it (I find it interesting that so many votes piled onto Iconeum when samantha was the leading vote getter; and Anya found a new home immediately after the vote count came out showing that). But also, does anyone see a solving mindset behind any of Samantha’s posts? They theorized from early in the game that Datisi and Luca were Scum Partners basically, and then have made two votes, one that shows some interest in survival (by voting their largest counter wagon). Not only that, but they asked Datisi (part of their “solve” to vote Rathe with them).

[Andresvmb]

So, unless Samantha’s objective is just to troll the game, I have yet to see even a remote attempt at making sense of what’s happening. I figured it was decent enough for a vote.

[Andresvmb]

I wouldn’t be surprised if one of those votes for Iconeum is Scum fueling a fight between Town in Rathe, Iconeum. I do TR Rathe actually. Iconeum? Much harder to say.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Icon

how about now Andre

I don’t know, you tell me.

[Andresvmb]

This is a bad wagon and has all my SRs on it (umlaut, samantha, llama)

So does this trump your comment of being okay with an Icon vote if Dats is insistent over it?

We'll see, in the end I'll probably trust dats if he keeps being towny.

I got a question for you - who would you say are the two or three best player in the game? As Town? Just curious.

[Andresvmb]

@andres I don't know a lot of the players in this game that well, but outworld, you, and mom are the players that I've seen have strong town performances before.

PEdit: lol

Actually I wasn’t expecting to be included.

There’s a simple reason for the question. Unless you think they’re all Scum, if these players can all agree, then it might be a good indication we’re not going wrong.

[Andresvmb]

andre fishing for compliments as we speak

let's see if Infinity takes the bait and goes for a pocket attempt

Actually I already tried this with Datisi and it failed. I didn’t get any compliments hahaha

[Andresvmb]

@OutWorldER what do you think of the fact that Ico and Samantha are our leading vote getters so far?
@Mom same question to you.

[Andresvmb]

nm I forgot rathe voted me

This is all you have to say? Do you have any reads of real substance at all?

[Andresvmb]

@andres I don't know a lot of the players in this game that well, but outworld, you, and mom are the players that I've seen have strong town performances before.

PEdit: lol

Actually I wasn’t expecting to be included.

There’s a simple reason for the question. Unless you think they’re all Scum, if these players can all agree, then it might be a good indication we’re not going wrong.

Curious where you get this idea from because speaking personally I feel my only good quality as town is being very hard to miselim as long as I put a modicum of effort into the game.

I wouldn’t be surprised if one of those votes for Iconeum is Scum fueling a fight between Town in Rathe, Iconeum. I do TR Rathe actually. Iconeum? Much harder to say.

This is an oddly specific hypothesis about what scum are up to given that you can't even say whether the two people "scum [are] fueling a fight between" are both town

It’s just a theory. Feel free to disagree if you like.

[Andresvmb]

andres you're wasting your time, one way or another

I’m extending an olive branch and you’re saying I’m wasting my time. I do like to feel like I’m helping execute Scum and not Town.

[Andresvmb]

Curious where you get this idea from because speaking personally I feel my only good quality as town is being very hard to miselim as long as I put a modicum of effort into the game.

You’re going to have to take this complaint to Infinity who flagged you as a player worth getting their perspective.

[Andresvmb]

Andresvmb - has never had a mafia game; one thing that was disturbing was explaining his vote on me after the fact viewtopic.php?p=12674445#p12674445 - ALL of his votes in the 2 town games I read were either naked or had very brief explanations (one-liners)

I don’t have a whole lot of time to post until later tonight, but I did want to rebut this because, well, it’s quite obvious nonsense. I guess I would ask, what games did you look at? You must not have looked particularly close at all.

I don’t have any Scum games on this site that you can scrutinize, that’s correct. However, I have played Scum in a different forum I used to play in prior to this one. I can point to games if you want me to.

And I can absolutely be elaborate when putting down my suspicions. I don’t think you’ll find anyone here that has played with me before that will agree with your statement that all of my votes are typically preceded by short cases. I can at times be verbose.

[Andresvmb]

it may not be accurate but it's a towny observation because she's got the binoculars on

This is false. It could be Scum intentionally misrepresenting my meta to dilute the reasoning behind my vote for them. I wouldn’t so quickly give Towny points for spitting out wrong facts about me.

[Andresvmb]

Sorry guys. I have been away for a bit. I’ll come back later tonight. Just needed a break from Mafia that’s all.

[Andresvmb]

I’m around btw I’m going to try and do a re-read and maybe help a little more than I have.

[Andresvmb]

Oh I forgot about Momrangal, she is my strongest TR atm

I would blow up Luca here for this reason alone.

[Andresvmb]

I’ve only read the first ten pages again or so. Datisi is Town. So is Rathe.

I don’t feel like I want to shoot myself reading Datisi’s early takes. So they’re Town.

[Andresvmb]

Oh I forgot about Momrangal, she is my strongest TR atm

I would blow up Luca here for this reason alone.

why

Because Momrangal at that stage as your top TR just doesn’t make any sense. I think I have a way to figure out whether Mom is Town. But by then they had absolutely not revealed their alignment nearly enough for you to call them your top Town. At least I didn’t think so.

[Andresvmb]

Also your whole view of the game was literally opposite of mine. So I figured I would push you on it.

[Andresvmb]

Oh I forgot about Momrangal, she is my strongest TR atm

I would blow up Luca here for this reason alone.

andres you scum or?

I haven’t had the fortune of playing Scum on this forum. But when I do, I’ll be sure to answer this question in the affirmative just to throw you off.

No, I’m not Scum. In fact I kind of want to roll Scum just to get it out of the way. In the meantime, you’ll have to deal with me being obnoxious.

[Andresvmb]

I would blow up {Iconeum, Luca Blight, Umlaut, esotericzoomer} and hope to hit at least 2 Scum. Let’s see how well this post ages.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Luca

[Andresvmb]

I would blow up {

Iconeum

, Luca Blight, Umlaut,

esotericzoomer

} and hope to hit at least 2 Scum. Let’s see how well this post ages.

talk to me about these two

I have mis-read Iconeum in the past. But they were pushing bad logic against Rathe (which you correctly called out), and I also agree that they seemed very intent in insisting a bit too heavily that you could be Scum and not to TR you. I actually think you’re not that hard to read. A bit harder to execute as Scum, perhaps, but somewhat transparent. I’ve liked your positioning so far. I think Ico is needlessly pushing misinformation about your slot.

esotericzoomer seemed to be supporting some of the bad logic a bit further from the background. I mean I TR Anya and Infinity too. So I thought I would include a quieter slot.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: andres

making that kinda list and saying with confidence that you hit 2 scum when you only recently just said you haven't read past page 10 is absolute bullshit

This btw is just... oy.

Have I said that I have maximum confidence I’m hitting 2 Scum in that grouping? Is that what I said? It’s almost like Ico is just intent on misrepresenting a lot today.

[Andresvmb]

Do you think Luca, scum commits himself to wk me early on and nails when asked about it?

Mom but like you tell me - do you think you were the Towniest slot in the game up to that point?

[Andresvmb]

why is a bad logic push scum!indicative?
i have not yet scumread datisi this game, so please dont misrep me - and don't give me that crap about datisi not being hard to read

you go read our last -6- games or something and make your conclusion from that instead of such a cheap jab

wait you think i'm pushing datisi? and 'pushing misinformation'? You are literally showing you aren't caught up to this game

You’re right about one thing. Bad logic can absolutely come from Town. That’s not necessarily AI. Insisting that your bad logic is actually useful and not reconsidering - that’s more what I think is AI and comes from Scum. After your back and forth, you say something about how you maybe shouldn’t be pushing your POV so hard, but that it’s a draw. A draw? I read it, and I actually thought you were just wrong, and Datisi was right. Regardless of alignment. It seemed to me like you wanted to hold on to bad logic and a bad read.

[Andresvmb]

>one of the quieter slots
>has the third highest post count

Up to that point! Let me catch up. I might change my mind.

[Andresvmb]

ok fine

i'm arguing my pov a bit too strong here, but you are overly defending someting that shouldn't be defended quite that hard

i'll take a draw here

oh and dats

when are you gonna vote rathe

This doesn’t strike me as reconsidering up to that point now does it?

[Andresvmb]

Anyway, all I’m saying is - I think Datisi comes off as Towny from that interaction. Maybe more than you being Scummy. I don’t know what it says that you’re so willing to basically proclaim me as Scum now though. I’ve seen this movie before so I’ll just finish reading maybe and give you a fuller sense of where I stand. I just felt I would give you all some of my unfiltered thoughts after having more time to read this game.

[Andresvmb]

>one of the quieter slots
>has the third highest post count

Also is this active lurking or what?

[Andresvmb]

ok i'm triggered

andres is scum shitpushing me

going to grab a coffee and calm down first lol

Btw - you’re way too easily triggered if that little questioning did this. It wasn’t even particularly aggressive. I know you’ve seen me be far more pushy than this.

[Andresvmb]

>one of the quieter slots
>has the third highest post count

Also is this active lurking or what?

im just not getting involved in this 4 way shitfest

You didn’t want to get involved, but you threw a dart at a part of the argument I put forth? Why not just openly take a side or engage me more actively? Seems strange.

[Andresvmb]

ok i'm triggered

andres is scum shitpushing me

going to grab a coffee and calm down first lol

Btw - you’re way too easily triggered if that little questioning did this. It wasn’t even particularly aggressive. I know you’ve seen me be far more pushy than this.

i get triggered easily if you're gonna spew absolute lies about me

i'm not saying you are agressive - i'm just saying you are lying about stuff i did

I think I mostly just gave my opinion about your play. You did in fact, from my POV, have bad logic behind your early push on Rathe, and you even recognized that you were being a little stubborn about it. Datisi felt the same way. Luca and Llama did too, from what I have gathered. And I am agreeing with Datisi’s early feelings about how you seemed a bit insistent not to easily TR Datisi.

Grouping all of my points as “lies about your play” is a significant exaggeration. But that’s also how you operate so I’m not going to say it’s coming from Scum. But it’s not great either.

[Andresvmb]

@Mod I’m VLA until tomorrow night.

I’ll keep catching up tomorrow just had an exhausting long day.

I just skimmed through Luca’s point though about aggressive players not necessarily being Town. I agree. His skepticism that the more experienced player is being given the benefit of the doubt and the less experienced player is not also rings like a true defense. I’m going to have to re-evaluate you Luca. For now I’ll UNVOTE: until I’m done reading.

[Andresvmb]

Intent to hammer.

[Andresvmb]

Btw I was catching up and I started getting good vibes from the players pushing Umlaut earlier in the day which is why I’m giving Umlaut a chance here to claim and see if we’re going wrong or not.

[Andresvmb]

Also Anya might be Scum in my estimation. Not something I want to elaborate on much right now. But I have been getting those vibes after re-reading.

[Andresvmb]

actually let's do it this way

@andres

you said you'd blow up umlaut as well, right?

VOTE: umlaut

let's go then

Yeah.

Look I read a little more slowly and carefully. I think you’re Town for what it’s worth. I think you might have made this argument about yourself I know but I understand how you would have been more afraid as Scum to come out with a bad case against another player early in the game and might have instead been more vague about your reasoning. So I get that.

[Andresvmb]

Andres why do you TR me

I don’t know. I need to ISO you now. I expressed that read as I had it but I can’t really remember the reasoning now. Probably something along the lines of you seem thoughtful and helpful. But I can’t be specific right now.

[Andresvmb]

Lean Town
{Rathe, Datisi}
Slight Lean Town
{Infinity 324, LlamaFluff, Momrangal, Iconeum}
Neutral
{OutWorldER, esotericzoomer}
Slight Lean Scum
{Umlaut, Anya, Samantha97, Luca Blight}

Through 840

I’m posting this only to hold myself accountable later and see how I feel.

[Andresvmb]

Momrangal, Infinity, eso, Icon, Samantha and maybe Anya as well are town-leans

My biggest suspicions are Outworld and Datisi

I need to review a lot of stuff but I'm not really in the right headspace for it today

I liked some of Luca’s posting, to be totally fair. Like my unvote there was genuine. But something about this post really pinged me. I really don’t like the narrow world view they’ve crafted here, and I’ve been calling Datisi Town consistently and I am really starting to get confused about the SR’s there.

[Andresvmb]

I swear you all frustrate me. Luca is saying "please dont hammer" and isnt unvoting to be safe. Andres is declaring intent to hammer while being multiple pages behind.

Just why? Is this what the site is now?

I’m not multiple pages behind. And I’m not hammering. I just announced intent.

[Andresvmb]

The thing is I read in bunches, and sometimes I go back and read pages in a row in the middle to make sure I better understand a train of thought. Like I will keep up with portions of the game, go back and read from the beginning, try and find things that ping me, without necessarily going in order.

[Andresvmb]

And so on. You shouldn’t assume that because I’m responding to things in previous pages that I’m not necessarily up to speed on the latest set of posts.

[Andresvmb]

I’ve been calling Datisi Town consistently and I am really starting to get confused about the SR’s there.

what're you basing your view of datisi on

for me it started as instinct and then I noticed what could be 2 mafia tells when reading his games (that are present in this one), but I forgot what one of them was

I just finished a game with Datisi where they were Scum, and I spent some time reading through the Scum PT to try and make sure I understand their perspective. Not saying they would play Scum the same btw. But I’m not seeing it. Their play that game seemed agenda-y to me. Here? I’m not getting the same vibe at all.

[Andresvmb]

There’s something about them that’s a lot more care-free. They’re a paranoid wreck as Scum. So if you start picking up on some nervous energy, reconsider what I’m saying. All I’m seeing is a player eager to solve and push to find truth. So far. They can absolutely fool me I’m not infallible and it’s an early take. It would take a few more re-reads to solidify that read which I absolutely intend to do.

[Andresvmb]

There’s something about them that’s a lot more care-free. They’re a paranoid wreck as Scum. So if you start picking up on some nervous energy, reconsider what I’m saying. All I’m seeing is a player eager to solve and push to find truth. So far. They can absolutely fool me I’m not infallible and it’s an early take. It would take a few more re-reads to solidify that read which I absolutely intend to do.

Ime datisi is nervous as both alignments but shows it more often as town, so keep that in mind I guess

Andres seems like the type of player who would be really good as scum, so the fact that I like his posting a lot so far is scaring me

You’re not the first person to say this. And I’m telling you, I am really not! Typically as Scum I have trouble expressing my unfiltered views - I am very conscious about trying to control my entire worldview too closely, make sure it stays consistent. For what it’s worth.

[Andresvmb]

There's nothing narrow about the world view, those were just my reads at the time

I should rephrase - it felt like a

wrong

and narrow worldview. Mostly about Datisi who I ISO’ed just to make sure I wasn’t TR’ing them for nothing.

I think Infinity expressed this too were they said that Datisi feels oddly relaxed. I felt the same way - like they could probe whatever. We’ve mind-melded a bit too, actually (we had similar reactions to a lot of Samantha’s posting, for example), and that also made me feel comfortable.

[Andresvmb]

@andres Can you link a scum game for me, even if it's offsite

Yeah I’ll point you to a game here where I quoted a bunch of my Scum games one second.

[Andresvmb]

@andres Can you link a scum game for me, even if it's offsite

viewtopic.php?p=12061332#p12061332

[Andresvmb]

@andres Can you link a scum game for me, even if it's offsite

viewtopic.php?p=12061332#p12061332

The broken links are further down on the same page.

[Andresvmb]

I think Infinity expressed this too were they said that Datisi feels oddly relaxed

Yeah, from what I know about datisi it's scum-indicative though. I don't have a ton of meta on him though

If you read the Scum PT or their Notes from the most recent Scum game they completed, I think you’ll come out with a different conclusion, but again they could be manipulating meta that they know I would be looking for.

[Andresvmb]

unless you're scum yourself there's no way of knowing whether I'm wrong on that

I can also just trust my own read? No I don’t know for sure whether you’re right or I am. But that’s the read I have.

[Andresvmb]

Neutral
{OutWorldER, esotericzoomer}
Slight Lean Scum
{Umlaut, Anya, Samantha97, Luca Blight}

Through 840

I’m posting this only to hold myself accountable later and see how I feel.

I do find it surprising that you have those four players below Outworld and Zoomer level with him

Can you explain why this is?

I’m just trying to organize the game. Like I’ll be reading and if something pings I’ll maybe put you as Slight Scum Lean but like I’ve said this a million times and I’ll repeat it - I do really believe my early reads are all bad. So it’s just a combination of gut and what my head spits out at any point in time and some of it is hard to explain.

[Andresvmb]

unless you're scum yourself there's no way of knowing whether I'm wrong on that

I can also just trust my own read? No I don’t know for sure whether you’re right or I am. But that’s the read I have.

Trust it to the extent that you think I'm scum because I'm supposedly wrong?

That's

what I call a narrow world view

So now you’re flipping my own argument? Fascinating.

[Andresvmb]

So you believe your early reads are bad and yet you think I'm scum for disagreeing with your Datisi read?

That's a really weird outlook

I try to stay grounded. Look I am not going to call every read right. I haven’t even measured whether I can call out Scum at a rate better than random.

But I do think I have some minimal ability to spot some Town. Datisi is one of my stronger reads. I don’t think I get all of those wrong. So yeah since I strongly disagree with you, and you seem very intent on diminishing my TR of the slot, I am naturally suspicious of you. I don’t think that’s weird.

[Andresvmb]

Why are you in such a rush to E-1 Umlaut, anyway?

What does this even mean? I’m not in a rush at all. Signaling intent doesn’t mean I’m going to vote in 5 minutes. It just means that I could theoretically join the wagon if I think the conditions are right. I want folks to know where I stand.

[Andresvmb]

And what do you think of my reasoning for being skeptical of Datisi?

What is your reasoning anyway? From what I can tell you seem to remain skeptical because they haven’t “obvTowned” or made themselves super obvious. I think that’s a bit lazy. Is that really enough to SR someone? I don’t really believe so. Like if they had pushed something convenient or made some sort of Scummy argument maybe I would get it. But I can’t say that they have. Do you believe so?

[Andresvmb]

Also Luca your reads feel quite static from just quickly glancing through your ISO. You’ve been pushing Datisi in some form for like most of the game, and haven’t changed your mind despite calling some of their posting around Ico Towny in 363. If anything you’ve been scarily consistent about the two SRs you have. It just seems odd to me.

[Andresvmb]

I'm not saying you have to agree with me, but sr'ing me for this seems stupid.

SR’ing you for having what seems like a completely superficial reason for SR’ing a player I TR seems stupid to you? Well I’m sorry to say that I strongly disagree and don’t really care. I don’t feel like I need to please you with my logic. I just explained it because you asked.

[Andresvmb]

Datisi is still in the same boat as earlier. I've liked and disliked certain posts of his, but the jury is still out

Okay but this at best signals that you really find them to be null. But you’ve expressed two SRs basically the whole game. But your reasoning doesn’t really line up with that.

[Andresvmb]

But even still, why would you intend to hammer when there's so much up in the air? If that's the way you felt then why hadn't you joined the wagon already prior to the E-1 vote?

The answer to this is simple - I haven’t been around to put a vote down for Umlaut. I still don’t get what you’re trying to get at. Not everybody joins a wagon early. Unclear to me what you’re trying to signal exactly.

[Andresvmb]

I'm not saying you have to agree with me, but sr'ing me for this seems stupid.

SR’ing you for having what seems like a completely superficial reason for SR’ing a player I TR seems stupid to you? Well I’m sorry to say that I strongly disagree and don’t really care. I don’t feel like I need to please you with my logic. I just explained it because you asked.

So if you play many games with someone and always correctly read them as town really easily, but then one game they seem a bit off, wouldn't you be suspicious of this? And btw Datisi (your TR) has literally SR me this game for the exact same reason

I'm not a hardcore SR btw, it's a slight scum-lean which I have zero interest in pushing today for reasons stated

You can express whatever reasons you want to SR a player. I don’t share your view of Datisi. Again, it’s very early in the game. I can absolutely be way off. I don’t understand why you’re so intent on changing my mind about a slot you don’t even want to push today anyway. It’s all mighty confusing to me.

[Andresvmb]

And it’s not like you have some sort of hard view of Datisi. You just think there’s “something off”. Like, what? You’re almost too stubborn about disqualifying my reasons for TR a player you’re very wishy washy about yourself.

[Andresvmb]

It makes sense not to hammer yet, but I think umlaut should claim now just in case we want to move somewhere else based on the claim.

Yeah I mean this is exactly what I said.

[Andresvmb]

I'm saying it's weird af to SR me for not agreeing with your read, especially given the context I've provided and how you admit to having bad early reads yourself

It’s not. I think you have poor reasons to have so consistently put a player as one of two options for Scum, and a player I TR to boot. You can say all these things about how I’m being weird or whatever but frankly I think you might just be Scum and are slowly backing off by putting Datisi as null now. I’ll look to see how the game develops but I think I’m going to be skeptical of your slot this game for sure.

[Andresvmb]

And it’s not like you have some sort of hard view of Datisi. You just think there’s “something off”. Like, what? You’re almost too stubborn about disqualifying my reasons for TR a player you’re very wishy washy about yourself.

You

are the one SR'ing

me

for disagreeing, not the other way around

It's not like you have great reasons to TR Datisi (both Infinity and I have expressed that lack of paranoia/nervousness does

not

indicate Datisi is town) and yet you SR me for being skeptical of him. You say I have a narrow world view when clearly yours is narrower than mine in this regard

You’ve expressed two SRs, one of which you clearly don’t really believe in since you’ve backed away from it very quickly after some scrutiny, and are calling OutWorldER your only real SR so far. This

is

narrow. So if OutWorldER is not Scum, then what?

[Andresvmb]

Ok, go for it. I should have learnt from our last game that it's pointless trying to reason with you.

I'll get to reviewing Umlaut now

Oh c’mon now. This is straight up bullshit.

[Andresvmb]

I mean this is just nonsense.

How about I put it in a way you can understand - I will give you sufficient time to catch up Luca if you need it because I am in no rush to actually hammer. However, at this point, a claim would be helpful since we are approaching the end of the day and I feel like it could help decide whether we maintain the course or deviate with sufficient time to find an alternative.

[Andresvmb]

Depends on the player, for a lot of players it's just vibes, ico had what I thought was a particularly towny push, samantha is now showing a nonchalant reaction to their wagon which I see as towny

I don't like townreads that are "oh this person hasn't done anything scummy" because I find that scum can play like that pretty easily especially on d1

Infinity: i don't like townreading people just because they haven't done anything scummy

nah im not that petty to be annoyed
so youre on the wagon to get content out of him?

No I think he's scummy because he hasn't towntold

also Infinity: i scumread people because they haven't done anything towny

Btw I thought this post was Scummy in particular from Anya. The whole attacking the logic and shading the player while not making much of a conclusion on whether Infinity is Scum for it seems bad to me. I’ve also seen this exact pattern in other Scum players.

[Andresvmb]

Alright I’m probably going to sleep soon. My intent still stands, so I expect Umlaut to claim when they get back.

[Andresvmb]

Only other option is Umulat is scum and rest of scum have no ability to influence what is happening, which D1 just is really unlikely.

I wouldn’t entirely discount the fact that Scum are feeling forced to bus their Partner and can’t find a good excuse to get off. But I can understand why you feel skepticism based on the fact that you don’t feel a lot of resistance to an execution. I would argue that OutWorldER being pushed somewhat aggressively after Umlaut begins to get closer and closer to execution is a form of resistance.

[Andresvmb]

But frankly trying to differentiate which one of Umlaut and OutWorldER is Town or Scum is actually hard given that they’re both low content slots that appear to be either busy or disinterested. My main argument to deciding on Umlaut was mostly wagon composition, not the slot per se to be totally honest.

[Andresvmb]

I haven't posted because I literally haven't felt like it. I took two games and a modded game while also having to deal with situating my brother since he just moved in with us.

I'm really disengaged from this game and finding it hard to pay attention :/

I was asked a while ago for a read on OutWorldER. Supposed to be working now but I'm going to at least run an ISO on him tonight, if I don't make a post about it then kindly yell at me.

Having said that, I find myself feeling like Town is more likely to post the first one and not the second one. Promises to do work that go unfulfilled make me lean more negative that blatant admissions that they just haven’t felt like posting at all.

[Andresvmb]

Is it too easy with no resistance though? I feel like you might be discounting all of the soft pushing that Luca is doing for OW and against Umlaut for example. Or the fact that esotericzoomer came out to say that they dislike both wagons and want Iconeum instead (who lean more Town to me than Umlaut). I thought those were interesting developments on the side.

I can’t really say with any real certainty what Umlaut is going to flip to tell you the truth. But I also think that you haven’t really seen warring factions compromise here in a way that would suggest that the compromise is bad. At least not like I’ve seen in other games. But I grant you that there’s nothing that screams Scum about Umlaut either.

[Andresvmb]

My alternative is not getting executed today, and since they seem to be pushing for a way to defend Umlaut, I’m okay trying to see what happens I guess is how I would summarize my position. And unless Umlaut really picks it up, I am less offended by executions of marginal slots. To be honest, I don’t want to let people just skate by this game, leaving these really hard to sort players for later with much more at stake.

[Andresvmb]

My alternative is not getting executed today, and since they seem to be pushing for a way to defend Umlaut, I’m okay trying to see what happens I guess is how I would summarize my position.

Who is "They"

It’s not obvious from the back and forth I just had with Luca? Hahaha well, Luca would be my preferred alternative. But there’s a few things - they could be right about Datisi (and I could just have a bad read there, which skews my whole universe), and I know from experience that Luca can have a very positive impact on a game. So I want to see that develop a little more.

[Andresvmb]

And also has it not crossed your mind that fmpov there is 0 resistance to this wagon? If Umlaut is scum and Outworld town then you'd think there'd be a little more interest there

I have made my views clear on both slots. I can’t say with any sort of conviction that either flips Scum. But I do have some TRs I’ve expressed and they’re mostly leaning on voting for Umlaut so I’m okay with it. I don’t know what else you want me to say.

[Andresvmb]

My point was that you're trying to make out that I'm protecting Umlaut by pushing Outworld, when I was pushing Outworld before Umlaut was even a wagon

Sigh. You’re putting words in my mouth. You are clearly being overly insistent about the OutWorldER read you’ve consistently had as the Umlaut wagon has gained strength, constantly asking players to basically go with your preferred execution. Like it doesn’t always happen that a player gets wagoned, they’re Scum, so their Partners start randomly pushing a new alternative.

I’m not saying that you’re Scum pushing Town the whole time and becoming more insistent about it as your buddy gets closer to an execution btw. There’s a wide range of possible explanations to what we’re seeing. You could be Town pushing Town and defending Scum (or Town), and the Scum Team using that to their advantage to sow division for instance. I’m just not overly offended about flipping Umlaut here. And I can’t say I TR Luca but we do have history so I’m also mindful of that (I know I also have a propensity to SR you so there’s that in the back of my mind).

[Andresvmb]

Thats whats bugging me. It seems very disjointed, and in this spot too easy. Its not a strong town read, but it feels all sorts of wrong.

Listen I’ve been in exactly your shoes in the two previous games I played before this one. You have that hard to explain feeling that a wagon is developing on Town and you can’t quite point out the Scum but it feels wrong due to the game state. Maybe give another shot at looking at the wagon and explaining who you feel is pushing us in the wrong direction then. As you know I’ve expressed a SR of Anya for instance. I could understand if you’re skeptical because you think that’s a vote coming from Scum or you don’t understand why we’re (potentially) ending on the same wagon after I’ve expressed skepticism there. Do you think you can narrow down what’s causing your viewpoint?

[Andresvmb]

And yes, there are a range of possible motivations which was why it irked me that you just highlighted the only negative one and the only one that is convenient to your current stance.

I didn’t understand this btw. What is convenient about my current stance? I laid out all of my reads and provided some examples and explanations. I get that you think this will flip Town, like fine. But you might want to stop spinning everything I’m posting negatively just because you’re “irked” because I’m clearly not doing the same to you.

[Andresvmb]

The longer this goes on the more likely it is im going to be goaded into defending him arent I?

I wouldn’t necessarily frame this as an immediate negative btw. Say Umlaut flips Scum. I wouldn’t immediately assume that the loudest defenders of the slot were Scum too. It’s typically more nuanced than that.

[Andresvmb]

ok i thought of this yesterday and i wanted to give it a bit of time to see if it continues and it did continue so i'mma say it:

why is llama consistently complaining about the current wagons but trying to offer zero alternatives?

You’ve seen me do this to a lesser extent (I did have an alternative but not one I had originated myself). So do you think that’s Scummy or Towny intuition? Because I’ll tell you Llama reads a lot like Town to me.

[Andresvmb]

i'd say it's scummy if wagons are town, something something pretending to defend a townwagon while doing nothing to stop it. but we're kinda short on time to the point i don't know how much stock i'd put into it.

llama!town is a take i guess. they're part of my "3 people i do not get any townvibes on" but i do not have any faith in my own reads rn. talk to me why they read ~a lot~ like town to you?

Assume Llama is Scum for a minute, and one of two scenarios is playing out. I’m going to leave aside the scenario where the Team is OutWorldER, Umlaut and Llama because that seems fanciful.

Say Umlaut and Llama are Partners. The only way a Scum really stops their Partner from getting executed here is by forcefully pushing an alternative (since you and Ico and others really seem to want to do this), hard TR’ing the person about to be executed, and consistently executing on that strategy. Otherwise, if they think Umlaut is going to go down, they probably bus when it’s quite likely they’re going to get flipped. Llama hasn’t done that at all (either one). So I’m going to guess it’s not Partners.

Then what you might be seeing, if you SR Llama, is that they’re White Knighting Umlaut. But they’ve been doing it consistently without necessarily currying favor with some of the loudest voices in the game. So I also think they don’t stand to gain much from their stance right now. Maybe they’re trying to be subtle, sure. That’s possible. Trying to get Town cred while not being too obvious about it so that Umlaut does go down. Wouldn’t discard that. But then, Umlaut is Town in this scenario, most likely.

The other scenario, and what I think is more likely, is Llama is Town, and defending a player they genuinely believe isn’t Scum without having a real fleshed out view of where to go or what to do. I could be wrong, of course, but that’s what my gut is telling me.

[Andresvmb]

umlaut are you going to roleclaim

Also, stuff like this doesn’t give me a whole lot of confidence. Why are you asking a player at E-2 to role claim? Yeah, there was intent, but it went away. This doesn’t strike me as a Towny urge.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Iconeum

I’ll put this down for now.

[Andresvmb]

I do see how Umlaut has dropped off since being SR as potentially scum-indicative

but Outworld has done the same thing tbf. I think they are both scummy for similar reasons but Umlaut has at least made some decent posts

Umlaut should claim in his next post anyway

i have my reasons to scumread umlaut, but the ONLY thing indicating he might actually be town here is the fact that he dropped off since being scumread, according to his town!meta i had the pleasure seeing in Smuggler's Port

he got pressured really early on Day 1, as a major role in the game, and i saved his but after my weekend VLA
he got really down from the pressure, and never really recovered and was pretty much a non-presence the rest of the game

but he's probably just scum here so yeah

This post just sounds like Scum to me giving the appearance of hedging but wanting to get a Town execution through. In case anybody cares.

[Andresvmb]

I like get you arent too fond of umulat, but dont like that few of our other reads mesh (if you put Andres over Umulat I probably would have just voted there).

Llama you seem to be SR’ing me for some reason. Can you elaborate?

[Andresvmb]

I’m more positive on Umlaut following their posts after coming back. Will be worth looking back at it but for now will avoid.

[Andresvmb]

@Infinity you seem to want to read some Scum games and get some meta on me. Where did that lead?

[Andresvmb]

@Rathe can you get back here and tell us what you make of the game so far? I’ve slotted you as Town so I want to see what you make of Umlaut’s last set of posts.

[Andresvmb]

I'm putting you as a townlean for now, later on in the game I may investigate in more depth

You’ve expressed skepticism of {Llama, Umlaut} in the past (522). I think Llama is Town, actually. Not that my opinion means much anyway. But is there no one else pinging you? What do you think of Ico’s pushes so far?

[Andresvmb]

Infinity I’ll admit - your reads feel somewhat static. I think you’ve had the same 2 or 3 players as Scum most of D1, and have softly defended OutWorldER without sticking your head out much (158, 571). Can you elaborate a bit more on what you make of Umlaut’s last set of posts? Do you think Scum is likely to come back after being pushed to the brink and vote outside of the leading wagons (and particularly a player you seem to TR)?

[Andresvmb]

Got prodded, I'm here

UNVOTE: Iconeum

Don't know if he's town but my reads are way stale at this point and Icon is a non-wagon. I did see Icon giving reasons I could be town that he could just as easily keep to himself but not sure what to make of that, he certainly doesn't seem to want to actually dissuade my wagon

Am I still at E-1? I saw I was at one point.

Sorry I read this to be a vote not an Unvote. I mixed that up. But even then, the point is roughly the same.

[Andresvmb]

Wouldn’t that be exciting? You know I’m generally against them, but I do think this game needs a bit of a shakeup.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: OutWorldER

Let’s try something. I think OW is slacking too much.

[Andresvmb]

I’ve been calling Datisi Town consistently and I am really starting to get confused about the SR’s there.

what're you basing your view of datisi on

for me it started as instinct and then I noticed what could be 2 mafia tells when reading his games (that are present in this one), but I forgot what one of them was

I’m interested in this @samantha. Do you think you can expand a bit on your view of Datisi? I really do believe Datisi is somewhat transparent in games, though it probably boils down to how much responsibility they feel they need to carry for their Team (whichever Team that is). I think of Datisi to some extent as a try hard when they need to be. So if Scum is slacking, I expect Datisi to pick up the slack when Scum. If Town is slacking, and they’re Town, same thing. I don’t expect them to recede into the background (and I would be suspicious if they did). Just from memory I don’t think they’ve engaged in a lot of direct confrontations, but I’ll go back and take a look.

[Andresvmb]

confirmed town
Iconeum

I’m also fascinated by this. I have a lot of conflicting thoughts about Iconeum. They seemed to get overly upset about what they perceived to be wrong descriptions of their play or pushes against them, and I don’t know what that means (but just felt a bit over the top for Scum). I’ve seen them react aggressively before and succumb to OMGUS as Town (we did a bit of that dance when we first played together towards the beginning of that game), except Datisi pinned them down correctly and hard defended them. But here, I’m not really getting warm and fuzzy feelings about them. Like some of the criticism from Umlaut in 366 rings true to me. They almost seemed to eager to get into a fight with me and tunnel, and I like to think Town are a little more cautious than that. But again, I know Iconeum doesn’t really play that way, so that’s where the mixed feelings is coming from.

[Andresvmb]

to eager

*too eager

[Andresvmb]

Like, after my fight with Rathe I reconsidered and came to a town!Rathe conclusion

After my fight with datisi I came to both datisi AND rathe!town reads

HOW THE FUCK IS THAT ME NOT RECONSIDERING ANYTHINGGGGGGG

why is a bad logic push scum!indicative?
i have not yet scumread datisi this game, so please dont misrep me - and don't give me that crap about datisi not being hard to read

you go read our last -6- games or something and make your conclusion from that instead of such a cheap jab

wait you think i'm pushing datisi? and 'pushing misinformation'? You are literally showing you aren't caught up to this game

You’re right about one thing. Bad logic can absolutely come from Town. That’s not necessarily AI. Insisting that your bad logic is actually useful and not reconsidering - that’s more what I think is AI and comes from Scum. After your back and forth, you say something about how you maybe shouldn’t be pushing your POV so hard, but that it’s a draw. A draw? I read it, and I actually thought you were just wrong, and Datisi was right. Regardless of alignment. It seemed to me like you wanted to hold on to bad logic and a bad read.

WTF?

I DID reconsider
that is literally what happened - the draw part was with datisi, not Rathe
If I wanted to hold on to bad logic and hold on to my 'bad read', I wouldn't be reconsidering now would I?????

This is scum, folks

ok i'm triggered

andres is scum shitpushing me

going to grab a coffee and calm down first lol

ok fine

i'm arguing my pov a bit too strong here, but you are overly defending someting that shouldn't be defended quite that hard

i'll take a draw here

oh and dats

when are you gonna vote rathe

This doesn’t strike me as reconsidering up to that point now does it?

ARE YOU ACTUALLY READING THE GAME???

offering the draw with datisi is literally me reconsidering and not continuing

the second post is literally a meme which you'd know if you were actually reading

Like this sequence of posts is almost too confrontational for Scum if you ask me. But then again it could be Scum looking to get into a tunnel to avoid spilling too much about other players. Except Iconeum is the top poster and basically going every which way. Like that doesn’t make sense either.

[Andresvmb]

if you ctrl f his games for that word you might find what I mean

This doesn’t really help me though like I am not going to go do this. One thing Datisi has said is that as Town they’re happier sharing their gut reads whereas as Scum they have more difficulty with that. I’ll ISO there now try and come up with a more detailed read there.

[Andresvmb]

we're probably going to have to go our separate ways in terms of processes cause my methods are kind of eccentric

Yeah I can see this. But I guess I’m not so interested in you detailing your process too much. Just explain in your own way what makes Iconeum Confirmed Town and Datisi Scum would be useful to me.

[Andresvmb]

Actually I ISO’ed Datisi, and they don’t have a lot of positions.

@Datisi, you’re a bit devoid of takes as far as I can tell, outside of that post where you listed a bunch of names and said you wouldn’t execute among them. Can you elaborate more on your view of the game? I am getting a slight feeling that you’re coasting.

[Andresvmb]

ico, andres, infinity, maybe rathe, maaaybe anya. samantha i saw something that might just be town!indicate but too early to tell.

llama and zoomer were giving me townie vibes earlier but their votes on ico are like. not good. also the more i'm looking at zoomer the more i'm wondering if he's just perpetually gonna be in this weird catchup mode and i don't know if i like it.

if i didn't know who luca was, he'd be a townread. he however has not impressed yet for his standards.

Can you update this?

[Andresvmb]

There’s like too many posts doubting TRs of your slot (or explaining why players shouldn’t TR you for your positioning around Ico), a lot of questions about why you’re being viewed either which way, and a lot of talk about how other players are perhaps playing the game. But not a lot of opinions about other people’s alignment if that makes sense.

[Andresvmb]

Finally you’re seeing what I’m seeing

Datisi’s energy feels really off this game, but again maybe it’s just taking him time to get properly invested in the game? Idk

Yeah I’m coming around at you basically being the more obvious Town player this game. Don’t know how that makes me feel. But it’s true.

[Andresvmb]

I’m just worried that if I die scumtisi might coast through to the end of the game unchallenged

We would both have to die for that to happen. If Datisi is Scum, I think they know this to be true as well.

[Andresvmb]

Alright Luca, what do you really want to do? Like if you had a Vig shot, who would you shoot?

[Andresvmb]

This seems like a reason to TR ico. Like, you know he's played like this as town, and his play seems a bit too aggressive to come from scum, so for me that's reason to TR him. Can you explain more why you disagree? If you didn't know anything about ico's play, how would you be reading him here?

Yeah no that’s kind of where I’m landing. I’m Town though, so they’re aggressive push against

me

does give me bad vibes, even if for all the other reasons I’ve stated they seem more Town than not.

[Andresvmb]

Alright Luca, what do you really want to do? Like if you had a Vig shot, who would you shoot?

Like is it still OW?

[Andresvmb]

i could argue self-meta of "what in the fuck is scum!me doing here exactly" but we both know self-meta gets discarded easily.

I could answer this - trying to avoid controversy so that you survive one more day, which lets you NK one of the more obvious Town slots without drawing too much scrutiny.

[Andresvmb]

@andres if you want anything else from me rn, speak fast, it's past 3 am here. or let me know if i can leave.

I want Luca to tell me what execution they really want. That’s what I want to know. And perhaps I would ask you the same thing. Who is your top target today?

[Andresvmb]

the others just... feel like a muddy mess of nullish reads?

Because this feels mighty unsatisfying to me.

[Andresvmb]

It feels like you're trying to position yourself to have influence in the game while keeping your options open.

I don’t think I can help myself. I always go for a leading Town position. I don’t think you’ll ever find a game from me where I sat in the background and did very little unless I was either spectacularly demotivated which... I can’t recall being too often.

I don’t agree with your interpretation of my play but it’s your own view so it is what it is.

[Andresvmb]

The other thing is, what changed in the day or two since you were defending datisi? I understand you weren't super sure on the read, but datisi hasn't really done much since then.

I don’t like to be wrong. So I am constantly re-reading. And I am just constantly paranoid about everyone all the time haha so if my mind changes I like to put it out there see how people react.

[Andresvmb]

It feels like you're trying to position yourself to have influence in the game while keeping your options open.

I don’t think I can help myself. I always go for a leading Town position. I don’t think you’ll ever find a game from me where I sat in the background and did very little unless I was either spectacularly demotivated which... I can’t recall being too often.

I don’t agree with your interpretation of my play but it’s your own view so it is what it is.

Idk, I don't remember you playing particularly like a town leader in bending, at least not until later in the game.

You’re right that I’m a slow starter. But I think there’s enough in this game already to maybe get a feel for enough players not to completely screw this up.

[Andresvmb]

And I am just constantly paranoid about everyone all the time haha so if my mind changes I like to put it out there see how people react.

when this page had 3 posts, I had a post written that read, "it's me and 2 mafia on this page isn't it"

You think Luca and I are talking to each other as Scum trying to plot a Town kill? Is that what you’re suggesting?

[Andresvmb]

I read all your posts since outworlder vote as angling to move to someone else

also that was just to say I can relate to being paranoid

and the reaction to it has made me paranoid again

But why didn’t I just stay on Umlaut then who Luca has also signaled they think are a difficult slot to read? Isn’t that the path of least resistance for us as Scum?

I’m not one to make obvious strategic blunders as Scum, I’ll tell you that much.

[Andresvmb]

you're obviously setting up a bus on me for day 2 that rockets you both into endgame

Hahaha you know I do think it would be fun to play Scum with you.

[Andresvmb]

Okay I need to urgently finalize a project. I’ll be back in about 3 to 4 hours or so. I won’t be too sad if OW gets executed to be transparent but I would definitely like to see more content from the like of Momrangal, Rathe and zoomer.

[Andresvmb]

^the likes of*

[Andresvmb]

My project lasted longer than I thought and I expect to be busy today.

I don’t know that flash wagoning zoomer makes sense, unless we are positioning them as a Partner to Anya who keeps calling them Town. Frankly it’s probably a bad flip. I’m more inclined to want to wagon Infinity who I’ve slowly developed some skepticism towards (and there’s something to be said about them constantly saying they’re “afraid” of me).

[Andresvmb]

(and there’s something to be said about them constantly saying they’re “afraid” of me)

what do you want to say about this?

Infinity keeps wanting to call me Town but seems to always hedge on it. Almost hoping that if I get voted, they’ll join and say that they’re afraid of my Scum game or something. I’m finding the positioning around my slot to be Scummy if that makes sense.

[Andresvmb]

andres do you have a desire to join luca and outworld?

I don’t know what I want to do. You seem to have sprung into action following some pressure on your slot, though I always expected you to be active around deadline anyway. I want to see where this goes.

[Andresvmb]

My project lasted longer than I thought and I expect to be busy today.

I don’t know that flash wagoning zoomer makes sense, unless we are positioning them as a Partner to Anya who keeps calling them Town. Frankly it’s probably a bad flip. I’m more inclined to want to wagon Infinity who I’ve slowly developed some skepticism towards (and there’s something to be said about them constantly saying they’re “afraid” of me).

why doesn't it make sense
where the fuck is zoomer
we're under 24 hours left
they're posting elsewhere while giving no shits about this game

I don’t know why is Anya constantly calling zoomer Town? I also haven’t been offended by anything they’ve posted but I will admit I have them as mostly null and should probably scrutinize the slot a little closer. I did say I wanted more from them precisely because I can’t make up my mind.

[Andresvmb]

why are you focusing so much on anya calling him town? do you think she's a great player that needs to be sheeped or something?

No, I’m SR’ing Anya. Don’t forget. So I don’t think it’s Scum playing around their Partner. I’m implying (and now directly stating) that I suspect it’s TMI haha

[Andresvmb]

there is only one player i ever nightkill here as scum, it's not you nor andres, so please get off your high horse lmfao

Due to WIFOM, neither one of us is going to die now. I look forward to continuing this struggle tomorrow hahaha

[Andresvmb]

i don't wanna minimize your thoughts, but this feels like your scumread on me is coming from playstyle dislike more then actually scumreading me

Okay well I do dislike shit pushes, which you’ve admitted to engage in to some extent. So fair, I will admit that some of my skepticism of you probably comes from clashing with your style of Scum hunting. However, you do seem to want to get into a 1v1 at times in this game and all my instincts usually indicate that this sort of behavior is Scummy. Mostly because it never seems to naturally flow from a Towny mindset.

My biggest reason not to really want to vote you just yet is that I think you are almost forced to try and keep up the volume posting, which if Scum should become obvious and might help sort other slots.

[Andresvmb]

Like this sequence of posts is almost too confrontational for Scum if you ask me. But then again it could be Scum looking to get into a tunnel to avoid spilling too much about other players. Except Iconeum is the top poster and basically going every which way. Like that doesn’t make sense either.

i don't think i've tunneled this game?

one of your main points has been 'scum!ico seems to be trying to get into a tunnel', but if you actually believe that, then why haven't i just done that? I've pushed several people, i could have easily sticked to one of them no?

for what it's worth, at least i'm townreading your confusion here
i don't think scum!andres would be giving me this much room, and just hard push me

it feels solvey

Yeah I mean I

don’t know

what to make of the way you’ve reacted to pressure or criticism so far. That’s the truth. It could go either way. The fact that you haven’t actually tunneled (I agree there) is probably a positive to some extent. There are Scum players that engage in that sort of behavior though so they can turn to that original “suspicion” when casting a bad vote at a later time.

For example, if I participate in the execution of Town today for whatever reason, you could then turn around and say not only did they help execute Town, but I felt they were Scummy even before! They tried to shit push me, and pushed a Town - this is Scum! Look I almost never come into a game and expect to get executed D1. Frankly unless I’m super Scummy I don’t find my style elicits really negative reactions early. And when I’m Town I think people can see that I’m trying to solve anyway. But if Scum is trying to save an NK and not have to use it on me, they’ll definitely start planting seeds for a future push. With tougher to execute slots, it’s the sort of strategy that eventually pays off.

[Andresvmb]

the more i read from you, the more i think you are town who *wants* to scumread me because of reasons, but actually thinks i'm probably just town

is that even remotely close to the truth here ?

Actually I’ll say - I don’t go into games wanting to SR players. I’ve never felt (truly) that I needed to SR anyone. And I very rarely advocate for policy executions (for toxicity, style, anything). To give you an example, I am the sort of player that will defend Not_Mafia and insist on trying to figure out what they’re trying to do.

So you shouldn’t assume I want to SR you or anyone else. Of course if I was Scum all my reads would be disingenuous. But then you should just say that you think my read is disingenuous and coming from Scum. Otherwise, there’s no in game or out of game reason I would actively choose to SR a player. I either find you Scummy or I don’t. That’s it.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Datisi

Fuck it, let's do this

VOTE: luca

luca confirmed 100% scum

he's literally spent the entire game building up to this
he's literally spent the entire game saying he will be able to read datisi later on, and now wants him dead because??

nope

trust me boys this is scum!luca trying to get rid of a dangerous opponent
at least it confirms datisi as town

that vote is literally a scumclaim

I never thought I'd be pushing for a Datisi lim D1, but here we are

I just have this feeling deep inside of me

here we are

any final words?

Like this feels similar in content to what you wrote after I started questioning your slot. You did express some reservations a bit earlier about Luca but then you call their push of Datisi (which btw is not insane) as a Scum claim. That’s way over the top. And why not try to understand what Luca is saying? I definitely came around to what they had been arguing before and Datisi has admitted to some of it certainly being true.

[Andresvmb]

really wish samantha and anya are seeing scum!luca like i am and vote him

And like why those two? I honestly have a lot of trouble reading Anya, and Samantha is an enigma wrapped in a shit sandwich. Anya has demonstrated some patterns of Scum. Some I’m cautious there. Samantha? They pinged me early. I will have to update my view there for sure.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Infinity 324

[Andresvmb]

andres, you puzzle me
you think zoomer is town bc you're scumreading anya and think she might be tmi-ing his slot town
but you're fine voting infinity *with* anya?

I hadn’t even noticed that. I was just voting a slot I think could be Scum. Anya could be Town too I mean I do better voting players I individually SR before looking for associations.

[Andresvmb]

I don’t mind my vote for now. I was going to read more carefully and catch up tonight but I’m totally drained. I’ll try again in the morning. I’ll be around deadline anyway.

[Andresvmb]

Here we go again hahaha

[Andresvmb]

So Luca, Ico and Datisi fight in a way that makes it seem like there’s no way they are all the same alignment, and yet they all found a way to vote Llama? Rathe’s vote seems interesting too. Could go either way.

I’ll re-read Llama quickly so please no one hammer them.

[Andresvmb]

I think Llama is Town, on balance. I ISO’ed Llama. There’s one thing Scum do that I have noticed which is to constantly promise future content and not quite deliver on it, or deliver on it when the answer is no longer as impactful. Llama could be doing this to a limited extent, but frankly that’s the only reason I can come up with as to why he would be Scum.

Otherwise, practically every point he made that I read carefully, I ended up understanding or thinking at least that it made sense from a Towny mindset. I particularly thought that his point about how it would have been hard for him to put himself into a Scum mindset quickly to answer a question, and how Datisi seemingly doing that pinged them. And his general feeling around the OW wagon, which is consistent with how he interprets the Claim, seems to obvious for Partners (and mostly just correct).

[Andresvmb]

and how Datisi seemingly doing that pinged them.

*seemingly did that

[Andresvmb]

like it's not a guarantee he's scum but a fast wagon by itself is not a slam dunk towncase

Yeah obviously this is true. But Llama appears to actually think through issues carefully. If I was trying to get rid of a thoughtful Town voice, and for a player that is not here to defend himself, I would do it with a quick wagon towards the end of the day.

[Andresvmb]

This Llama issue is more pressing atm

Infinity why are you so sure Llama is scum?

Everyone else is towny, he writes a lot of words but doesn't seem to believe any of them. Also he has a scar avatar so he's definitely scum.

Remember that tell about how a player is afraid to create enemies by TR’ing a lot of players? How is this not that? Haha this is almost hard to believe.

[Andresvmb]

I know I'm town so the way I see it either andres/outworlder/umlaut are all mafia (possible lol) or there is/was mafia on the wagon

Unless I was very nonchalant about both my Partners getting wagoner D1 (and threatening to hammer one of them), I don’t think you’ll find that many people that think that the Scum Team is Umlaut, OW and me hahaha

[Andresvmb]

like it's not a guarantee he's scum but a fast wagon by itself is not a slam dunk towncase

Yeah obviously this is true. But Llama appears to actually think through issues carefully. If I was trying to get rid of a thoughtful Town voice, and for a player that is not here to defend himself, I would do it with a quick wagon towards the end of the day.

lol think through what? that case on samatha where he pushes on most level-zero contradiction? like typing a lot of words is not townie by itself

I read what they posted carefully. This is bullshit Datisi and you know better.

[Andresvmb]

Infinity should really be executed here. I am getting stronger and stronger Scum vibes from the slot. They have been consistent about {Umlaut, Samantha, Llama} being Scum. All day. And now everybody is a TR except Llama?

[Andresvmb]

I've made it pretty clear that I don't TR zoomer particularly strongly and don't TR you at all

PEdit: oh idk why they would pause the night deadline and not the day deadline though?

This Llama issue is more pressing atm

Infinity why are you so sure Llama is scum?

Everyone else is towny, he writes a lot of words but doesn't seem to believe any of them. Also he has a scar avatar so he's definitely scum.

How can anyone even think this is remotely consistent? This is literally just convenient positioning.

[Andresvmb]

Infinity should really be executed here. I am getting stronger and stronger Scum vibes from the slot. They have been consistent about Samantha being Scum. All day.

w8 wat

Wait no not you. Just Llama and Umlaut for the most part. I think they changed their mind on your slot actually. I think it went from a SR to a TR.

[Andresvmb]

How can anyone even think this is remotely consistent? This is literally just convenient positioning.

Anya is still not a townread, umlaut I already said has been a bit townier, datisi has I think been townier on the past couple pages but I'm not sure on that. This argument is silly, if I had 3 null reads 1 SR and 7 townreads, "everyone else is towny" is still a reasonable exaggeration to make. First you criticize me for having static reads and now this shit?

You’ve had the same 2 SRs literally all of D1. If Llama flips Town, how does your view of the game change?

[Andresvmb]

Ico's pushes feel very genuine to me tbh. Here's where I'm at atm

{luca, ico}
{andres, samantha, ower}
{zoomer, rathe, mom} <-- I have reasons to think these are town, but I'm not confident
{datisi, umlaut}
{llama}

Like this basically has not changed mostly at all.

[Andresvmb]

Do you think Andresvmb is scum?
Do you think OutWorldER is scum?
Do you think I'm scum?
Do you think LlamaFluff is scum?
Do you think Iconeum is scum?
Do you think Datisi is scum?
Do you think Anya is scum?
Do you think Luca Blight is scum?
Do you think Something_Smart is scum?
Do you think samantha97 is scum?
Do you think Infinity 324 is scum?
Do you think Koto is scum?

possibly
no
possibly
possibly
no
possibly
no
possibly
dont know
possibly
possibly
possibly

I was also a bit horrified by this to be totally honest.

[Andresvmb]

like it's not a guarantee he's scum but a fast wagon by itself is not a slam dunk towncase

Yeah obviously this is true. But Llama appears to actually think through issues carefully. If I was trying to get rid of a thoughtful Town voice, and for a player that is not here to defend himself, I would do it with a quick wagon towards the end of the day.

lol think through what? that case on samatha where he pushes on most level-zero contradiction? like typing a lot of words is not townie by itself

I read what they posted carefully. This is bullshit Datisi and you know better.

even the points you mentioned, "it's difficult to put one in scum shoes" is like, not that complex of an argument, and i already called the earlier defense of outworld weird
whether it's "correct" or not i honestly don't care bc scum can easily make "correct" arguments

andre what is my alignment in this game

I can’t say just yet. I thought you were Towny early on, and then I started to see what I pointed about your positioning in the game and your lack of basically Towny aggression. I need to re-read your latest set of posts to figure out how that’s changed, and whether your interactions with Icon/Luca change any of the earlier statements I made. However, I don’t like this push on Llama, and what Llama was feeling about OW, that’s the same exact feeling I’m getting about Llama.

[Andresvmb]

@Datisi I’ll turn it around and ask you, do you think I’m Town? What do you think about Infinity? Can you ISO and give some thoughts there?

[Andresvmb]

Also I ISO’ed Samantha - Samantha is like, bleeding Town.

[Andresvmb]

I should have been more careful there. After coming to that conclusion, it has weakened my TR of Llama.

[Andresvmb]

I’m surprised you think that Andres given Samantha has maintained the same reads all day

Which seems to be your go-to scum tell

I don’t have go to Scum tells.

Listen my number one approach is I read posts, and something in my body happens that basically gives me either bad vibes or good vibes. That’s like, the first step.

Yes, Samantha has been consistent. But they don’t feel wrong to me. Like there’s a difference. I think Infinity is full of shit. I don’t read Samantha that way. I don’t know how else to explain it.

[Andresvmb]

Infinity's probably town here, same with Andres. Ico also probably town.
Samantha is my only real egregious SR. Everyone else hasn't done anything I find particularly egregious, so scum is probably in deep. Keep an eye on Datisi, modding 2195 taught me he can deepwolf fairly well.

so you agree with me totally except my opinion of you and I end up as an "egregious SR"


this is the first time that I can remember you even suggesting someone besides me was mafia, and even the datisi comment was a half-hearted "keep an eye on him"

I really don't have any other alternatives other than Samantha, I think scum are deepwolfing hard this game (or I'm just blind) which is why I'm not actually opposed to your Datisi flash-wagon idea even though I think Datisi's probably town here?

"not opposed to flash wagoning someone I think is town, but suggested was mafia the post before this" is an interesting take

Samantha's early posting is just bad and while she's had some decent posts since then she flip-flops between giving sorta detailed posts and just throwing random shade at people for no real discernable reason.

I know that you can't relate to this, but when you don't know who the mafia are you have to extract that information from people

They SR you and me simultaneously and never elaborated on it and it's a conclusion I'm not sure how town would be able to come to? Like I want them to actually explain that because I feel if they don't a lot of accountability will be lost going into D2.

if you truly wanted to know this you'd have asked about it when I said it; you didn't because you don't care about learning who mafia are

Like read this post and tell me it isn’t Town. I don’t know if Samantha is correct, mind you. But their take is so on point.

[Andresvmb]

infinity is town

how are there so many mafia members?

Wait, what? How?

I ISO’ed Infinity just to make sure I wasn’t going insane. It’s a

mess

. Infinity’s vote for Zoomer after calling them Town earlier in the game - that doesn’t ping you? They’ve voted Datisi and Luca at times (and shaded my slot) without providing much of an explanation at all, but then seem to insist on only carrying two SR’s: Umlaut and Llama. A lot of it feels opportunistic and bland, and static in an unnatural way.

[Andresvmb]

And of course now Umlaut “feels better” and Llama is the only viable alternative.

Look, I can understand why Llama for example would SR Samantha - I also felt at times that Samantha was a bit of a troll. I actually thought the wagon analysis was well done, and perhaps that’s what swayed my view a lot. And I like how you go about probing. So I don’t think Llama is a slam dunk either way but I can absolutely see them as Town I guess. I am really having a hard time concluding that Infinity is not Scum. So I guess I hope I’m not like way off.

[Andresvmb]

I actually thought the wagon analysis was well done, and perhaps that’s what swayed my view a lot. And I like how you go about probing.

I’m talking about Samantha here, btw.

[Andresvmb]

The only thing I am getting strong vibes about given the fact that Infinity is now going all out against their counter wagon is that {Infinity, Llama} almost surely contains one Scum. Let’s hope we make the right choice.

[Andresvmb]

I think {Samantha, OutWorldER} probably contains a Scum too.

[Andresvmb]

Someone talk to me besides andres who is clearly not engaging me in good faith

It's fine if it's a gut read I get it but there's nothing logical I can engage there really. You're criticizing me for changing reads and also having my reads stay the same

Not engaging you in good faith? I am trying to figure out who makes sense as the best execution here. You’re going all out on Llama being Scum, and have from 108 without wavering. But I think that you are either correct, or are Scum. There’s not much of a choice in my head. You were building as an alternative (slowly), and a lot of votes sprung on Llama. You’ve defended OW (softly, as I’ve pointed out) who could very well be Scum if my read of Samantha is correct.

[Andresvmb]

But I think that you are either correct, or are Scum.

What exactly do you think would be different if they're both town?

This is a good question. I think Llama would have reacted differently to Infinity’s constant probing and skepticism. Perhaps more engaging of the other’s viewpoint, or trying to dissuade them. I saw mostly just a dismissive attitude by Llama towards the beginning of the push (110, 116), and then mostly just avoidance. I’ll admit that 686 is just weird.

[Andresvmb]

But I think that you are either correct, or are Scum.

What exactly do you think would be different if they're both town?

This is a good question. I think Llama would have reacted differently to Infinity’s constant probing and skepticism. Perhaps more engaging of the other’s viewpoint, or trying to dissuade them. I saw mostly just a dismissive attitude by Llama towards the beginning of the push (110, 116), and then mostly just avoidance. I’ll admit that 686 is just weird.

I’ll put it this way. I think either Llama has been ignoring a righteous push by Town who is having a hard time connecting with other players perhaps, or Infinity has been engaged in a consistent shit push the entire time and is looking to avoid spewing other players while locking themselves into a singular execution.

However, I will also say, now that I’m thinking about it, Infinity has been able to express skepticism of multiple slots at different times even when they directly contradicted something that they said previously. Would Scum be so careless as to do that? Maybe not?

[Andresvmb]

I think Llama would have reacted differently to Infinity’s constant probing and skepticism. Perhaps more engaging of the other’s viewpoint, or trying to dissuade them.

How would town-Llama's behavior be affected by the color of Infinity's role PM? It's not like he would know it...

Okay but Llama also made a strong push against Samantha and defended OW, which are basically opposite positions. Like it’s hard for all of that to just be Town versus Town versus Town.

[Andresvmb]

Okay but Llama also made a strong push against Samantha and defended OW, which are basically opposite positions.

Opposite to what Samantha is holding I mean, who just recently called Infinity sure Town.

There has to be Scum in there somewhere. These are clearly all not bad players just bumbling around in the dark. There’s something more to it.

[Andresvmb]

Like it’s hard for all of that to just be Town versus Town versus Town.

I mean it wouldn't have to be all town? Why couldn't it be samantha scum and the rest town?

Well if Samantha is Scum, yes she could be White Knighting Infinity. But why? Infinity has defended OW. They’ve attacked OW. Why would you defend a player that holds an opposite viewpoint about the person you appear to be most suspicious of? Like if you’re going to White Knight a player, it’ll be someone you think will hurt the Town in the long run or can pocket. If Samantha is Scum, why actively decide to keep around a Town player that will make it harder for you to get what you want (which presumably is a mis-execution)? Like I don’t see it.

[Andresvmb]

These are clearly all not bad players just bumbling around in the dark.

Maybe you're not appreciating how often good players bumble around in the dark.

Possibly. But is that what you think is happening? You think Infinity, Llama, Samantha, and OW are all Town?

[Andresvmb]

Possibly. But is that what you think is happening? You think Infinity, Llama, Samantha, and OW are all Town?

I think that they can all be town, and that approaching the conflicts from the assumption that there HAS to be at least one scum in there is unproductive at best and downright misleading at worst.

This is silly. Either make a case as to who you think the Scum are, or don’t come at me with this nonsense. There’s two leading wagons and you’re basically saying they’re both Town, I don’t want to vote, I think the Scum are all outside of the two, but I don’t want to express who I SR.

[Andresvmb]

Llama's 1592 looks pretty town.

Update: it looks a lot less town after realizing that Llama has been defending OWER for a zillion years.

Like square your most recent positioning with this.

[Andresvmb]

You’ve mostly focused purely on the players attracting the most attention, and are concluding everyone is Town? So who is Scum then?

[Andresvmb]

^for Something_Smart.