Mini Normal 2196 - Game Over

[VFP]

Hello!

So assuming Dann caught DGB visiting bliped. Regardless we already know that DGB visited now.

@Dann

I don't really care for you going into detail on roles or claims other than is this 100% accurate scum caught or no? I'm not lining you up for anything here I just want to know.

@DGB

why did you check Bliped over Dann? I can't really see any reason for the vote on the Bliped slot (still need to read page to page properly). It does look like you originally favoured the Dann slot though.
I just want your thought process here.

[VFP]

@Dann I don't really care for you going into detail on roles or claims other than is this 100% accurate scum caught or no?

I'd say very rarely is anything 100%, even cop guilties run into the possibility of millers.

However, I'd say this is greater than 90% and DGB's reaction does not decrease that at all.

Got it.
I just wanted to clarify this wasn't just a feeling really.

[VFP]

@DGB why did you check Bliped over Dann?

Biped, replacements and lurker slot.

Biped, my apologies.
So who pinged you more, Klick of Biped?

Also, what makes Dann scum PR over town PR given the conclusion you seem to have taken for the vote / push?

[VFP]

Just vote me, I want to go on mafia hiatus, I am a town PR but was tracked to the dead guy, I really suck at the game, kill me it'll improve my odds of winning.

NAI but don't think like this regardless. What I've seen so far I don't think the visit was a bad choice from a town sense. The kill on the other hand, I'm still working this one out as nothing jumps out at me to why this slot was a target, maybe something from Klick.

[VFP]

I'm on page 17 but I'll continue tomorrow.

[VFP]

this feels like VFP trying to justify still voting for dripping goofball

I'm not voting DGB?

[VFP]

Unless none of them are scum...
Or a bussing happened.

Does Amelie look town anyway?

[VFP]

I can vote amelie here.
Town I feel like are Dann, Solon, Gretchen DGB and Lotus

VOTE: amelie
I think that's E1

[VFP]

sorry, you are right. i'll rephrase it as a post where you were justifying keeping suspicion on them

You will have to explain to me how by me saying DGB's visit makes sense as town there is a way to keep suspicion?
Surely to justify suspicion, I could just go with the 90% scum claim from Dann, and you know, shift the blame to Dann on a mis lynch?

This just feels lazy and posting to post on your side.
Or not paying attention to the game and possibly you actually thought I was voting DGB.
Either way, doesn't sit right.

[VFP]

Shouldn't Solon be on the lim list before Lotus? Regardless how you feel.

[VFP]

Because Solon has a town result on Lotus.
I'm not saying vote Solon, I'm saying it's a bad play to lim a spot with a town result on them.

[VFP]

I wouldn't be against an Alice vote if it come to it.
I feel like amelie is good right now though.

I'm open for discussion to why I'm voting wrong though.

[VFP]

@vfb
The reason this pinged me as suspicious was the way you basically kept all options open, yoy thought it not indicative but still didn't like it. I find posts like that things I look out for from scum, because they can use it later to justify going either way.
Does thay make sense why I called it out?

Okay I see what you're saying I think.
I think my wording was poor to what was inside my head. By nothing jumps out at me, I hadn't finished the pages, and something from Klick I meant like a crumb or a decent read. However, when I was talking about the kill it was seperate to DGB visiting and I couldn't make sense to why this was the night kill.

[VFP]

Maybe it's because I'm caught up and in real time now, but I feel like nothing is moving while amelie is at E1. Means scum are just watching hoping for the lim? Possibly, but it feels more like scum don't know who to effectivly push.

For Dann and gretchen it makes no sense for them to move away from DGB onto their partner Amelie.

Lets not give credit where not due yet.
Dann did jump on a small, but existing wagon on you once amelie was at E1. The DGB wagon fizzled off as well. I'm not saying Dann is scum for this, I'm pointing out that it's not a golden path.

I do agree that scum can have the exact emotion that DGB had, but if that's what you want to go on to convince me to vote there you will need more. I'm sticking to town response overall.
What else makes DGB scum (Outside of Dann's claim and the reaction)?
If town, do you think this was a bad night action choice, given DGB scum read Biped slot?

A counter wagon at this point wouldn't be bad though, as a mis lim in the current state doesn't tell us much more than we know now.

UNVOTE: amelie
My vote is purely here in spirit but I don't want a rash choice to end it.

[VFP]

People off the table for me to lim today are Solon, Dann, Lotus and Gretchen. Pretty obvious to why.
DGB, although effectivly a VT now if town, I don't think is a good lim.
clidd I think I like as town so you probably wouldn't want to waste any convincing here

That leaves the below.
Amelie
AliceK
geraintm
bugspray

Amelie scum does have partners, so I feel I can be swayed with a good argument since my voting of amelie was more so testing waters.

[VFP]

is it just bcs ive been inactive lately?

Possibly due to your presence since I joined. But nothing stood out for me to town you yet.
But since you're here, what made you change from clidd to Amelie?

[VFP]

i sr both and there was a wagon on amelie and not clidd

I don't really see much from you on amelie.
There's a difference of suspecting / willing to lim to a scum read.

Whats the scum read cause here?

Think that Clidd and amelie are scum separately or both are the same align?

[VFP]

UNVOTE:

Whats your thoughts?

[VFP]

i am still wanting to eliminate someone on the wagon yesterday, because i hated everyone on it when i went through the votes and how they happened.

So how many people do you think are on the wagon?
If less than all, what difference is there to lim from there rather than outside?
If you lim wrong and get a town, are you just going to focus on the wagon still?

Personally, although I'm not voting Clidd, I like where this is going and it is actually a decent counter wagon.

VOTE: amelie

[VFP]

My read on Gera has significantly improved.

Couldn't have said this better.

@Bugspray

- Gretchen and cliddbbothing flipping the same align or are you independently reading them?

We need anyone on a vanity wagon to explain more why we are wrong or anyone not voting to start. The state of the game is basically in a freeze and I still believe its because scum do not want to make a move.

[VFP]

Town: Clidd
Null: Geraintm, RLotus, Dannflor, Solon, VFP, Bugspray
Scum: AliceK, DrippingGoofball, Gretchen

I can't help but feel that you go for convenient reads.

[VFP]

Amelie dropped a beg old Town tell so I won't vote her.

What was it?

[VFP]

@Amelie

Can you go over some of your reads?
Clidd - You have as hardstuck scum until 578. What changes so much to swap but not disucss?
Dann (Da Dude) - You have them as town basically once they replaced Entrapta, but now just null since 1300 Changes?
Geraint - You think they are scum and was talking about dropping them to scum, what happened?

It makes sense to me that she has so many nulls if she's town.

But the scumread on Grechen I still don't understand. I think that's the only inconsistent point for my town!Amélie theory.

I disagree. The way the reads change, but yet confidentley doesn't suggest town at all. Look over every reads list amelie puts. Then read the comments in between each one.
578 is most likely going back and fourth where to add players and using the front page to just see the players names. There is nothing genuine concerning these reads.

The scum pile seem to have the safer options in and feels like they change with the games flow, not with amelie's opinion.

1122 is a good example of going with the flow and trying to play it off as your own.

[VFP]

@vfp who is the they you are referring to?

Dann (Da Dude) - You have them as town basically once they replaced Entrapta, but now just null since 1300 Changes?
Geraint - You think they are scum and was talking about dropping them to scum, what happened?

In this post?
First they is Dann's slot as a whole since all 3 take concern over the read. Second they is your slot, however I probably should have used 'he is', my apologies if that is what you are getting at.

However, this is where amelie scum reads you.

I'm starting to dislike Geraint and think they are scum

Here is where amelie talks about moving you to scum (Or maybe lower from null?).

Nothing in the game has changed much since I last checked in except that I might drop geraint

Here in the same post, amelie talks about your push being fake

Geraint's doesn't seem like he believes in the push he is making on me. He feels like he knows I'm town and is constantly thinking about ways to scum read me in his long and wordy posts that really are just saying things that could be summed up in three sentences

Here Amelie has you as Null. Top of the list with Null, and given how to reads have been presented it's safe to assume that makes you the most town from the Null's in this read.

Null: Geraintm, RLotus, Dannflor, Solon, VFP, Bugspray

I mainly want to know the thoughts here from amelie.

[VFP]

Vfp, which % would you put on scum!Amélie?

I'm not convinced amelie as scum yet. If the lim happened right now I'd expect 60% so more times than not flipping scum here.
I do want to get an understanding on what amelie thinks first though as I feel I may be interpretating some posts wrong.

[VFP]

How is it convenient to only have one townread?

I'm talking about your reads as a whole.
Every time you post your reads it looks to be safe or popular options.
At no point I never mention due to your town reads, but it interests me that both you and Clidd comment on that.

I don't think I ever hard scum read clidd.

Do you want to try again here?

I think clidd is definitely scum here.

I am now pretty certain the scum team is April Ludgate, Entrapta, and Clidd.

The way he has been playing this game is strange compared to where I last saw him but he's very noticeably trying to solve the game and thinking deeper than scum would here. If all of the analysis he has done comes from scum, I will be very shocked.

Let's not pretend that was my question. What made your read change on Clidd? Keeping in mind this happened before the reason you just gave.

[VFP]

Yeah, I get a bit of a town feeling on her too. Mainly because I don't think she would be this dense about scumreading me as scum and be a little more self conscious on her positioning.

Could easily just be scum not reading. Why read when you know who's scum already?

[VFP]

If there are 2 scum in the PR claims at least they won't be killing in the town PRs.
That problem fixes itself.

If there were 2 scum in the PR claims DGB will always fall under the scum here imo.
But there's no evidence to suggest 2 scum in the PR claims so that's full speculation.

Clidd currently being a roller coaster for me. I'm not sure if I like or dislike your recent posts.
It's basically drinking a glass of milk when your mind thinks it orange juice. Something doesn't seem right but you feel that you should like it.

[VFP]

VOTE: DGB

bye

What town tell did amelie drop for you btw?

[VFP]

@Vfp

I cause this effect on people, unfortunately.

I'm just trying to understand the motive to your posts.
I agree with a lot of it but I can't see what you and others see with amelie, even if not scum.

This just leads me to believe
A) amelie is scum and the scum buddies and pushing hard to save.
B) I'm wrong on amelie

I don't see scum Clidd, DGB or anyone else defending town amelie, so I ruled that out.

[VFP]

One thought that came to my mind, btw, is the fact that Solon had an approximate period of 6 days of inactivity and received no prod.

I suppose that N_M could have just forgotten, but an interesting theory was if Solon was posting on some PT but not in the main chat and N_M was under the illusion that Solon was active and not needing a prod.

Interesting concept.
Maybe messaged NM directly.

Pretty sure it would be a grey area on a rule break if true so personally I wouldn't want to push this.

[VFP]

Post 1328, Amelie.From "He feels like" to "townread me."

That's the town tell. I still can't figure out how to select text on mobile.

I mean from this comment.

Amelie dropped a beg old Town tell so I won't vote her.

[VFP]

@Vfp

I need you again. What's your pov on the gamestate?

Sorry I was being a farmer!

DGB holding the vote on itself is what seems a lot worse than the entire reaction with Dann, and the target etc.
I still think the claim / visit makes sense more as town but I honestly feel that Lim here could be better for town even on a town flip. Partially because of how DGB is playing (I do understand if it's because of how games as a whole have gone recently it feels pointless... I've been in this state myself a few times). However, I fear here that even if DGB towns it up, people are going to use the same case, same reason over and over and stalling the game. Even more so if a new body was to take the slot. Feeling defeated shouldn't be AI imo. Problem is, it's hard to disagree with the reasons for DGB and explain why wrong because of the defeatest play.
Biped was not a slot tough to push, so DGB killing it's read of scum here means more work to do the next day... The way DGB has reacted today, I don't see the mind set to want to put more effort in (as scum).

I'm not sure why DGB won't answer my question about amelie though. It does make me think that DGB could straight up be scum protecting scum buddie amelie. But that's just too easy unless amelie has a good power and DGB was just a goon. This was be less likely imo still, but it's in the back of my head.
Amelie just ignoring me, but could just be busy so I'll give the benefit of doubt here since I haven't been on since either. For now I'm going to keep Amelie in my sight as basically said by yourself (Clidd) but since the lim is struggling here I want to get inforamtion moving on. I really have to look over details properly tomorrow, as I am starting to feel stronger each time amelie posts that I'm right.

The 2 wagons are DGB and Clidd.
Scum are probably safely sitting on here {geraintm, bugspray, Solon} Be it scum with Clidd (less likely) or not.
I don't see scum players on DGB... Maybe just DGB is scum but again, this is pretty low imo.

Scum team could just simply be amelie, Alice, and BugSpray.
But regardless I go back to what I was saying earlier and thing scum currently just don't care.
Bugspray was the only 1 of the 3 to be on the amelie wagon, but the vote itself was pretty weak, to just jump off with the opportunity onto Clidd. The vote can be seen as voting for credit and actually not sure if a lim... Or knowing not a lim and trying to look town for voting there or to make people back off. I don't regret taking my vote off amelie as I think the move onto Clidd, and Clidd being the counter wagon right now says a lot. Even as scum, there's very much lack of evedence or reasons to go with it.

Alice straight up isn't paying attention to the game. Basically wasting a vote, not trying to solve anything. Won't even give a solid read on amelie and yet avoids when we have a wagon there.

Basicaly...

@DGB

Give me something to work with. Stop voting yourself and I'll put/continue the effort into pushing amelie, Bug or Alice. If you don't want to work with me on this I don't want to put the effort in just to go round in circles and even if not a lim today, back to it tomorrow.
What was the big town tell from 1295 concerning amelie?
What's your view on BugSpray now? Still town
What's your vire on Alice and being distant from the game?

Lets start on those.

[VFP]

I did answer, I was on mobile and awkwardly quoted.

I'm the yeet for today, you'll see soon enough that I'm not "protecting my buddy Amelie."

Post 1328, Amelie.From "He feels like" to "townread me."

That's the town tell. I still can't figure out how to select text on mobile.

Your post is 1295 when you say there is a town tell.
1328 happens after. Can you at least say what post made amelie have a big town read?

Bugspray was widely townread, he had no reason to NK defensively. From his perspective, an unstable (replacement/lurksack) slot NK would make sense.

A replacement could scumread him.

Just a theory. Other players were widely townread too.

If I'm right in thinking what you mean here, Bug can be scum and the kill would make sense?
While reading through the Biped slot I found this, which I can't understand how I missed originally...

I have a role that synergises with Gretchen's in such a way that makes me believe the claim is town.

So the kill makes sense from scum just to get rid of a PR.
But then this does go to question why this PR instead of the others? I have thoguhts but as it's just full speculation it's worthless.

The scum team isn't Alice / amelie / Bugspray though. I'm pretty certain on this. Although at this point I'd be confident to say 1 in there 100% and plausible that 2 are. These slots need looking at with night actions to at least help with mis lims.
Killing Biped over the other PR claims has me interested, and although I want to lim outside of these today I'm back to thinking 1 is in here... But only 1.
Amelie could really just be the mis lim scum were just wanting.

I want to look into BugSpray next as the main focus but I need the slot to be replaced for that.
First I need to go over the reads though, so anyones updated reads of that slot is appriciated.

[VFP]

I hate it sososo much that defeatism like that gets town read on here, it is so gross. Such a free defense for scum to do

You mis understand me. I do not town read DGB because of this and I'm trying to make it clear that it's NAI. You can't sit there and say it's a scum trait either when complaining about it being 'town read' of others.
Explain to me why DGB is scum outside of 'scum defeatist' or the Dann effect, which fall under the same section for me.

[VFP]

A convenient check on the night target when DGB presumed they got tracked, when there are already 4 PRs

Hams up the woe is me act conventiently when there is pressure on them. If you notice in between the time their wagon collapsed and they got wagoned again, they were fairly quiet. It's as if it is a survival effort.

Okay lets discuss who town DGB visits there? Do you think it visits Biped or someone else? I'm not holding a loaded gun with this question btw.
Having 4 claimed PR's isn't much of an argument as if DGB is town, the thoguht wouldn't be there. Neither should it be a first claim first serve situation.

Concerning the posting during the votes. DGB doesn't really post between the voting wagons, correct and I can see this looking as hiding back. There's a common pattern I do notice though. There's lack of discussion focused at DGB to get response but rather only talking about DGB for the same situation to other people could be the cause of this. Regardless of the alignment, if you are frustrated and the only posts you are reading about yourself is the frustration / defeatist stance then of course there's going to be a lack of posting there.
If you think DGB is scum then question there too imo.

I could be wrong here with my town read, so I'm going to try and understand the read from 1286.

[VFP]

and is voting the green check

You're a green check how

I got a green light on Lotus

Very likely green light anyway

I don’t feel the need to reveal the specifics at this point, you’ll see when I flip

I can tell you now that Lotus will never be today's lim

[VFP]

Its been three years so lets do this...

Everyone needs to in their next post give a brief summary of the game so far and an explanation of their current vote. I dont want essays but enough for me to get a better idea of what happened in real time than reading 60 pages in a night which im doing now. Think one paragraph for each.

Unvote

My town reads.
Clidd / Gretchen / Solon / Lotus
Probably town
Dann / DGB / geraintm
Scum some where
amelie / Alice/ you
I'm wrong somewhere, but I don't know where yet.

Solon claims green check on Lotus
DGB claims to have visited Biped who was the night kill (Reaction to Dann, thinking Dann was tracker)
PR claims are in DGB / Dann / Solon / Gretchen (Biped claimed PR)

Recent wagons
amelie E-1
DGB E-1
Clidd E-3

That's most of it I guess?

[VFP]

1286 is the post I meant.

He feels like he knows I'm town and is constantly thinking about ways to scum read me in his long and wordy posts that really are just saying things that could be summed up in three sentences. I don't see a reason for scum Lotus to not just hammer me at E-1 but I also don't see why town Lotus would townread me.

This is in regards to Geraint's 1269

Maybe a town tell. The first sentence more so than the second. Lotus voting or not there should be NAI, plus the green check was also posted by this.

@amelie

I know the stance changed since Geraint's confirmation of mis typing your name. However, what did you mean by constantly thinking about ways to scum read you? Can you give examples of where else you felt reasons were made up?
I also would like you to address 1332. Mainly the Clidd part as the rest is just going to be petty back and fourth from us I feel like. Basically, why did the opinion change from scum 511 to town 578?

[VFP]

Also I want a few more detailed thoughts on each other from the following pairings which I am really interested in at around page 30

Geranitum-Clidd (Alice weigh in with thoughts on both)
Dann-VFP

I don't understand your question here?
Pairings as in if they are scum together, or as in interactions?

[VFP]

What is your read on Dann. Its essentially the question for everyone in that pair.

Right now probably town, but if I had to pick 1 of the PR claims as scum Dann would be my first. Of course, I'm wrong with my town reads somewhere and there's going to be scum in the PRs (No not because of how many there are).
I wasn't in the game at page 30 so I don't have the direct live feel from Dann during the posting.

A few things that I have on my mind but by far not worth pushing today.
- Dann missing the green claim from Solon on Lotus. Claims it's because of finals week so that's why I don't really want to push on this as this seems geniune.
- Dann claiming 90% sure on the DGB being scum, to retract later. I can understand the 90% given if actually looking for a reaction / progression. Just sits on the side line for now as maybe a back track
- Dann hasn't really added much since taking back the tracker imply. Again, finals week so it's just on the side but not sometyhing I'd want to push.

As a whole I think Dann has been voting pretty bad, or at least the reasonnings.
But I just get town vibes when reading Dann's post more than thinking scum.

Again since its been a long time, does anyone have recent NRG experience? X-Day IC, Phycologist and Naïve are all things that at least did not usually use to be commonplace and just wonder if they are now. It appears they all fit the criteria, but dont want to bring in 2015 meta to my thought process if thats dead and gone.

I'm not sure what the meta is now days.
But I'm not Day 4 IC. FL made this claim, and it's by far not the first time FL has claimed something like this.

[VFP]

I think everyone needs to be voting Alice, Ame or DGB right now unless you have a big reason to move elsewhere.

I'm not sure I've seen anyone town read all 3 of these slots (I'll double check later) so let's keep this highlighted.
If anyone isn't voting on these then you should question how likely a lim on your vote will happen and either A) convince us B) vote here.
Unless of course you think all 3 are town where then you need to explain further anyway.

I have been really poor this weekend and haven't gone over Bugspray yet. I like Llama so far, and comftable to not even entertain this slot on the lim options any more for today at least, since he is clearly forcing the game to progress and players to be involved / make a stance.

Concerning voting. DGB is my least favoured out of the 3 to flip scum by far.
Amelie gives more information over Alice on either flip. Town flip Alice leaves nothing to go by since the lack of presence today or opinions / votes provided. Scum flip Alice is more or less the same. Positively lims scum, gain less from who the buddies can be.

If it comes to it though I'll vote Alice over amelie, and DGB over a no lim.

[VFP]

I'm not actually meaning that people are voting wrong if voting outside of amelie, Alice and DGB, I'm saying that voting for a lim is better than showing who you think is top scum. Unless it looks like Clidd has traction all of a sudden I don't see the lim happening. Even if scum, there are buddies to look for.

I don't think you disagree that there's at least 1.in amelie, Alice, and DGB though?
And these are the 3 names as a whole that appear to be universally scum read one way or another. If I'm wrong with that thinking, it's because people are sitting back too much.

[VFP]

Okay I'm passed caring for the day.
VOTE: Alice

[VFP]

I will just add though, on a town flip here the scum team may just be amelie / Dann / Llama.
I think I'll go over this before end of day if it's still up (a day I feel un related game reasons won't have my back up anyway).

I think I've just realised what Llama is doing here if I'm right.

On a scum flip, that's dis regarded anyway.

But yes, Alice should be the flip today.

[VFP]

Why would someone take the Alice slot just to claim and then be eliminated?
VT - we lim
PR - we lim as Alice isn't a PR.

[VFP]

Gretchen shouldn't even be an option today.

[VFP]

I didn't give it any thought, I just wanted to see the changes in the wagons with three players having 2 votes.

I have a feeling that Llama will just find any reason under the sun here to not lim on amelie when it comes to it.
And given Llama is one of about 4 people posting I can't see any progression for today, until we get replacements at least.


Let's just hope Dann doesn't get replaced too.

[VFP]

Let's put it this way.

Amelie scum / Alice town indicates Llama comes off worse as scum
Amelie town / Alice scum indicates I come off worse as scum
Amelie scum / Alice scum indicates both town.
Amelie town / Alice town then me and Llama are probably scum together.

[VFP]

Town can be suspicious of town.
Why do me and Llama have to town read each other if both town?

[VFP]

If you saw how my reads were there you can probably understand why I'm so unsure of myself here.
That game influenced my doubt in general a lot.

I had 2/3 of scum as town and kept flip flopping on my scum reads.

[VFP]

I'd be fine with a mass claim with who we have.
I'm not expecting much else to come put of it but knowing for sure would be good.
Plus you never know...

[VFP]

Hi Flea.
UNVOTE: Flea

[VFP]

I'd still lim Flea over DGB here. The push feels out of place and more opportunist. Best then that's most likely because I think DGB is town here more than not.
The sad part is its back to arguing what alignment the reaction was from DGB to something that shod be treated As NAI.
Not a fan on how Clidd posted as a whole Flea there either.

Amelie just has convenient reads again that seem to have changed to what they were without the explanation adding up.
Having lack of interest is one thing, but page 1 it shows everyone who replaced.
Adding Solon and Pooky, adding Alice and Flea.
Missing Dann/A50, geraintm and Lotus.

Just looks to be internally missed. Plus the fact that Clidd went down to Null with the reason that I was looking bad. This also means that amelie has everyone as null or scum other than me or DGB.

[VFP]

I had to rush the end there or I'll be late for work but think about it.
Has amelie really just been disinterested all of day 2 or just am easy excuse?

[VFP]

The tracking hint was taken back by Dann.
I would say look at the interactions with DGB to or about Biped day 1.

Does the visit make more sense as killing or checking?
From DGB as a player, not as a scum decision.

It's plausible scum team just felt it was the best kill and decided it. DGB would favour as a goon then anyway.

The question from Llama about results and DGB getting it right seems very "exact happenings" to me and I find it too convenient to drop into place with such ease given claiming the role, it pairing with Grethen and knowing the result correct.
DGB is an experienced player though, I'm not suggesting anything of the less here with that.

[VFP]

You are literally going to have to point out where Dann has even remotely hinted at a track specifically, because I'm not seeing it at all in the ISO.

From my perspective it was implied with DGB's response and the 90% comment from Dann.
I originally actually thought Watcher over Tracker until tracker makes more sense there from ISO.
If someone is claiming a 90% on a player who did visit the target, what investigation roles are going to standardly be here?
Notice how DGB doesn't see it as a guilty / not guilty kind if role with Dann? That suggests a mind set of DGB believing Dann does not know its role or alignment. And shows no worry to if Dann did.

[VFP]

>90% guilty can come from a lot of places, Millers, cop sanities and variants, asectics and redirects can make up that 10% of doubt, loyal/disloyal and all sorts of other modifiers can affect that.

This is a normal keep that in mind.
Also I joined the game after Solon and Dann posted.
And a Gunsmith was confirmed

Solon getting a green on Lotus explains itself.
What roles are left for Dann to get 90% sure on?
Rolecop? With the claim no
Watcher? Plausible
Tracker? Understandable
PT cop? No

I'm not going to say what DGB was thinking at the time as I have no idea obviously.
If it was me though and town anything outside of a Town / watcher wouldn't be on my mind.

I'll do the rest of your post later after work / lunch

[VFP]

Town / watcher wouldn't be on my mind.

This should say tracker / watcher.

The rest of the post is mainly about the AtE. I'm never going to be one that judges on AtE with the alignment. Trying to convince me will always be a waste if time.
I do see what you are trying to get at with the lack of posting when the heat died off, but there's not much difference to me if scum or town act like this after a minor freak out.
If scum, feels defeated for getting caught and let the scum team down.
If town, feels defeated due to the reasons given, assumebly.

If you argue that Dann having a result on DGB is a reason on it's own then why did Dann stop voting?
It falls back to there can't be many roles you get a 90% convinced scum result and you go with the 10% instead.
There are no shenanigans like bus driver or redirector and Dann would know this.

If anything your argument should be, why did Dann back off so easily and that Dann is your favoured scum not DGB, surely?

[VFP]

I agree with Clidd here.
This refers back to my 1411 where at this stage if the focus can't divert from the AtE response alone, the game isn't going to progress.

Flea talk to me outside of DGB as a whole.
Point me to your catch up post as needed as admitted I haven't read it yet.
Can you check amelie's iso and check the read lists with the surrounding opinions on those reads? Do the swaps in reads make sense or at least have reasons?
Do they seem convenient to the general game narrative?
If DGB Flips scum, who's next? I think at this point we can just agree and throw out Pooky and DGB as ever being a scum pairing.

[VFP]

Where's your thoughts at, Pooky?

[VFP]

Unless you can 100% tell me that AtE has not effected you, DGB cannot be allowed to continue. I am happy locking in on me or it.

AtE has no effect on what alignment I think someone is 100%

[VFP]

Talking about if there is a vig or not is actually worthless and speculation.
As Llama said, if not by now they should have, so who cares there? If there is one, shoot someone who will be scum or a mis lim.

VOTE: Flea The Magician
Pooky shouldn't be a lim today.

I still favour amelie over Flea. But it could just be both. I just think it's simple.
DGB over no lim right now.

[VFP]

Whats your thoughts on this at the moment, VFP?

My thoughts are I believe Llama as scum less now.
You town and amelie scum doesn't indicate Llama scum for me any more.

DGB scum would be linked with Llama more but I still think DGB is town.
I can't see a world where scum Llama pushes a scum agenda on me if all you amelie and DGB are town. It makes no sense here given that a town amelie flip leaves Llama with little to carry on with.

In addition, to make it clear there's going to be scum in you, amelie or DGB...
So with that, if you're town, DGB, amelie, and LLama are town then the scum has to be with the below (Lotus I'm removing as well).
Pooky - Maybe
geraintm - Maybe
Gretchen - No
clidd - No
A50 - No

We're in a bad state if this is where the scum team is and I'm confident that I'm right with 1/2 scum in you 3.
If you want survival Flea (at least from my vote), voting amelie is something I am obviously happy to join in.

[VFP]

Yeah it's not S v S.

[VFP]

I'll bite.

VOTE: geraintm

There seems to be a general interest/possibility here so lets see.
We have less than 2 days, and broken record here but amelie, Flea, DGB would be the better lim (in that order).
But this isn't a bad lim.

New wagon. Go go go or say why not.

[VFP]

I *could* entertain a Gretchen elimination, its unlikely though.

I couldn't.

[VFP]

@Flea

- Is a no lim better than a geraintm lim?

[VFP]

After a reread on my iso, I think I was decent enough in the sense of gamesolving to be at least a townlean from the perspective of Town!Gera. He played with town!me and I’m not very different here, but the insistence on “I’m still stuck in my clidd vote”, “I don’t have any other reads” and the lack of desire to seek AI information about the game reflect me as a profound stagnant/poor behavior. I'm still not sure if he would be scum because of that, but I wouldn't mind if he's the elimination to avoid losing it if the deadline expires.

Just vote here. Lets get a wagon larger than 3 going.
We have a day to go unless we are looking at scrambling in the last few hours.

Loaded much. We are in odd numbers, we need an elimination.
Hands can be forced.

This wasn't a loaded question, I actually wanted to know your view on it.
That's good to know at least, as the way you were posting I just felt you wouldn't want to lim outside of DGB / Gretchen.


On a side note. I recently finished a game where A50 replaced scum. A50 didn't really do anything in the game and just claimed to have joine dto fill the spot. It's to my understanding that this may be a re occuring pattern as scum but I haven't seen anything to back this.
This is the Solon spot so I'm not saying to go here at all today, I just want this note taken for future days.
I do think A50 should be placing a vote down somewhere though, since Solon only voted Clidd because of a theroy.

[VFP]

@Vfp

What do you think about this reaction?

Personally I don't think what you said crossed any line, even though it had nothing to stand on as a whole.
The way I see it though, Solon was ill and this probably had affect on the reaction. That or Solon thinks that this was just a general dirty tactic.
It has nothing to do with their alignment though without a follow up.

I just think it's a wasted vote, and want A50 to either given a reason to keeping it or attempt to move else where.

[VFP]

I don't think you understand me there.
If you don't want to lim outside of DGB or Greteching then you have no concern if there is a no lim over any other player in the game. Where a no lim would be in favour to geraintm I guess.
If you are willing for a lim outside of DGB or Gretchen (be it only in particular situations) then you do favour a lim on other players over a no lim. Where a geraintm lim would be in favour to no lim.

Unless I have it wrong, it's the second one.
And it's pretty important information to know at this stage of the day.

[VFP]

lol this vote flop after gera gets close is shady af

Yeah I don't quite understand this one.
If DGB was equal on votes I could understand it, but Llama is basically saying that geraintm is more town than DGB.
Keep in mind that vote isn't DGB lim is better for town, and would purely be DGB is flipping scum more than geraintm.

I don't think a flip would favour Llama here either way now, but looks like the hand has been forced.

If DGB Flips scum, the slot is most likely only a goon given this would have been the NK.
This would mean that Llama plausibly voted geraintm, who may be a scum PR or just the harder scum to lim, now expecting for some distancing actually worried as this lim looked promising.
Making it Llama/ DGB / geraintm (most likely the PR).

If DGB Flips town, then this just makes Llama trying to avoid a lim not only from geraintm, but also from Flea who was Llama's whole go to all day. The problem with voting Flea here though is Llama would be jumping off a larger wagon on to one that has fizzled off, so DGB should be the less suspicious one (it's not).
Making it Llama / geraintm / 3rd (amelie would be a good candidate)

Then to look to be warming up on an A50 vote here, because if its option a, then voting away from both geraintm and DGB would be best. Even trying to move from option B would favour a !Llamascum here too actually.

Either way that swap was desperate and not progressive with reads.

I'm not fully set on that yet, but regardless of a DGB flip keep this heavily in mind.

[VFP]

@VFP - I think DGB and Gera are both varying degrees of town following how those wagons moved around. DGB flips is *far* more useful than Gera flip, regardless of what it is. I will absolutely vote either if needed, but at this point its almost more of a utilitarian move.

So why did you vote on geraintm instead of DGB if this lim is more viable?
Keep in mind you moved away from Flea to do so, with the deadline approaching.
Surely if you wanted an option of 2 wagons, you stick to Flea and have DGB as a back up with a no lim alternative?

@VFP

I assure you I am town. Don't even waste time with "what if DGB" flips red.

To make it clear, I'm not saying that you are scum here.
I think you flip town 9/10 times here. However, on a scum flip the motive for Llama has to be addressed.
And even if you think geraintm is town, they have more chance to flip scum than you in your eyes. Given for you (in town argument) flip 0% of the time to their 1%>.
Same for amelie, same for Flea.

There has to be a point where you vote one of these spots in order to stop your lim.

[VFP]

I'm fine with basically any wagon at this point. Anything to get the day over with except goofball because I think goofball is definitely town. I will no elim over elimming goofball.

Well, geraintm is at E1.
So feel free to hammer.

[VFP]

to yeet someone who has greenlit another slot.

It's like scum want us to do the job for them.

[VFP]

Just to make it clear, if anyone jumps off a wagon and causes a no lim (regardless who for) with Flea offering the hammer just before the end I'm lock scumming you.
If you jump off one I favour to one I don't favour and a lim happens, I won't obviously have this mind set.

[VFP]

Bluff.

[VFP]

I'm not sure what A50 being a bad lim has to do with voting geraintm in the "1 v 1" to prevent a no lim.
It's a worthless excuse regardless of the intentions.

[VFP]

So what are we at now then? geraintm E1 DGB E1?

[VFP]

DGB is E2 then.

[VFP]

No, reading is apparently too hard for me. E-4.
So this is going to be a productive 5 hours.

[VFP]

DGB E1
geraintm E3

[VFP]

Traps work better when they aren't from a few hours ago.

[VFP]

depends entirely on how they're set.
My question still stands though. By my reckoning we're less than 2 hours. You can hammer whenever.

For every second that passes while I know you're watching, the more my suspicions grow.
Declare your intent either way, or perform the deed.

I'm actually not watching I'm playing Jackbox party 7 and checking in every other occasion.
I know the timer, and there's something I want to see. I like that you're worried of a no lim though.

[VFP]

If we wait long enough, I think A50 just hammers DGB here.

[VFP]

Your resistance is noted.

That's good to know.

[VFP]

At least Llama has given me a lock town bunch of names. That will make tomorrows solve much easier.
I'm guessing the kill will be in there tonight.

[VFP]

@Pooky

- did you (Dann) visit DGB night 1?

[VFP]

The fact that Dann was confident in the DGB scum originally isn't exactly mind blowing with the claims there already were.
90% PR scum most likely suspected because not VT.

So heres the problem with A50 being scum though. With this much town power (even without A50) scum is going to have something to counter. Mafia Doc doesn't make sense in this game but a roleblocker would.
We have 2 claimed PRs right now so no doubt someone had their action prevented and it doesn't seem to be Pooky. That suggests straight away that A50 was most likely blocked.

Danny reaction doesn't shout as scum Neapolitan either.
The kill was in the PRs means that scum are confident to go in dayb3 with just the 2 claims.with town expecting a lim here.

So basically while I look over things the below I feel good about.
Pooky
A50
Lotus
Llama

There's 3 scum in
Amelie
Flea
Clidd
geraintm

[VFP]

But why did he presume DGB is scum rather than the other PRs? I guess it's not impossible but it feels really funny to me

Because of the claims day 1 I suppose, plus knowing that they are a PR.
I could just be wrong and Pooky scum but I doubt that with how Dann acted alone.

[VFP]

I think Flea may be town.
But yesterday makes me think I'm just wrong for thinking this.

But the kill just sets Flea up nice for the lim outside of the PR claims.

I actually think I want to lim Clidd today but I will check over during the easter weekend more.

[VFP]

There is scum between Llama and Vfp, as I said yesterday.

Then vote me, because Llama has a green check on them.

[VFP]

Let me think about this as something is staring me in the face.
The best thing to do is ask, what kind of PR would scum have with and what makes sense for possible out comes.

Gun Smith even
Gun Smith odd
Psychologist N1
Novice Detective

Gun Smith even
Psychologist N1
Novice Detective
Neapolitan

Gun Smith odd
Gun Smith even
Psychologist N1
Novice Detective
Neapolitan

[VFP]

My head hurts trying to work this out.

[VFP]

Neapolitan is likely really in this setup, but it normally balances out with more roles.
Everytime I try to think of how this game suits x roles I keep coming back to all PR claims are town.

If anyone is lying though it's A50. The strength of 2 at odd even nights is so much stronger than just 1 every day.
Unless scum have 2 PRs which would make the Neapolitan too much of a trolly role, I don't see it.

I'm going round in circles here

[VFP]

Unless scum have 2 PRs which would make the Neapolitan too much of a trolly role, I don't see it.

Nea doesn't even distinguish between Mafia PRs and Mafia Goons. Why would it be trolly if the reason it exists is to provide Scum with cover through having too many "Not VT" results.

Because 50% chance of VT or non VT doesn't make sense there.
Roles should always favour % of their alignment in normals.

My point aboth was that scum having 2 PR doesn't make sense more than anything though.

[VFP]

I really.want to stop over thinking what there can and can't be though as I'll only get tunneled on this.
I do think outside of the PRs is still okay.
Llama is most likely town even if Pooky isn't. Llama wasn't at any risk of being flipped today so it's just a bizarre scum / scum check.
Lotus should only be locked town if A50 ever flips scum now.
Town A50 just means chance that mafia doc was hit, odds are low though so town and not for a lim.

Flea just seems to be the scum mis lim build up today.

I think it could just be Gera / Clidd / amelie here.
If I'm wrong there then Clidd is town and I have to re think the 3rd. Amelie is the PR though as this slot has had too much resistance for providing so little to the game.

[VFP]

VOTE: Flea

I have a feeling it's going to be worthless to try a lim else where.

[VFP]

I have a feeling it's going to be worthless to try a lim else where.

Im willing to go elsewhere for sure. Its probably A50 and then two of Flea, You, Clidd, Gera and Ame

Site is still freaking out for me, so will see how catchup goes.

Then I suggest Gera or amelie.

Gera only started because of the position players were in.
Flea basically out right said they won't vote Gera when the lim looked set. It was a strange take from someone who claims to prefer a self lim to a no lim.
Clidd voted in a reasonable spot and didn't jump off until last moment when it was obvious Gera wasn't happening. Suggests not S/S.
The main reason is the people just avoiding the wagon. amelie, A50.

amelie is just out right refusing to push anything productive in this game. 1932 will vote anywhere, then disappears and does nothing. This kind of play is a lot worse than Fleas.
Ever since I called amelie out for convenient read lists, we haven't seen any. So amelie has just stopped what I said was scummy?
Let's note forget that for how amelie is playing, this has been the hardest wagon to get focus or agreeing on.

Flea is on the boarder now as "obviously scum" which feels scum made. Flea is surely only scum if Gera is. Why would Flea want to lim DGB over Gera, if DGB can be today's mis lim? And the killing Gretechen seems either A) Gretchen had the right reads B) let's set Flea up as any easy mis lim.
There's a chance that scummy actions is just scum here. I don't see a lim going else where by end of the day, regardless of what takes are presented.

Also with the claim we just do just it instead of waiting for anyone to say yes or no.
Just give the list although I'm suspecting that I can predict every claim.

[VFP]

yet voting me because its inevitable and you keep pointing this out that my lim is going to happen.

I've played enough games to know when a loss is a loss.

[VFP]

Okay?
I'm not sure what you're getting at here.

[VFP]

Why be defeatist, when you should know the only time I'm truly so is when an elimination is needed.

Either move your vote somewhere, or make a case.

I don't know that though?
VOTE: amelie

As i said, I don't see see it going any other way though. It was basically the same for DGB yesterday.
Players can pretend that reads or reasons matter, but in a game like this, they just don't.

[VFP]

Where's your fire gone VFP? where's your spark?

Like I said, I can tell a loss in a game.
Let me explain what happens.

We lim town today.
Tomorrow a PR dies and the other doesn't get a result. That PR then gets lim because too convenient. That PR flips town.

Or...
We lim town today
Tomorrow a town dies (maybe PR). Other PR says a clear on a name (and is actually scum), town get lim.

If I feel town can win, I'll show the fire.

[VFP]

I'm not against my lim today.

[VFP]

Clidd, VFP, Flea. Thats the group. You go elsewhere, you die.

Why not amelie?

@VFP - Flea or Clidd today?

It's empty posts like this from someone who is supposed to be green that makes me really not care.
The relevance to this is so small and away from where I was trying to point as scum it will honestly be a waste of time on my side.
Flea.

I hate being the conf town

You're only confirmed town on a Pooky green flip. You know this.

[VFP]

I will just add though, on a town flip here the scum team may just be amelie / Dann / Llama.

I guess this could be the case still.
The way Llama posts just keeps shouting scum at me.

VOTE: Pooky
I think I'm going to sit on this all day. I'm unable to work with Llama until i know that they actually are coming from a town mind.

[VFP]

Why are you OK with your own flip? You've just seen me drill into someone for AtE and now you're pulling the same defeatist shiz.

Why me over Clidd? Why yourself at all? Why vote pooky, throw shade at Llama?

Because we don't win here. Its not AtE, its knowing how the game ends.
I've suspected Llama since yesterday, you can call it shade, I call it reasonable suspicion. Llama is experienced enough to know when to use the term confirmed town.

You over Clidd as I think you flip scum more times than Clidd here.

Pooky because I can.

[VFP]

Claim: Vanilla Townie

[VFP]

I think I should do the lottery.

[VFP]

Dann is not playing anymore.

I am playing.

I said DGB is town

you didn't listen to me and you elimmed DGB

now you are trying to blame me for you making a shitty vote and elimming DGB.

You're literally ridiculous

Whats un reasonable with what Lotus said there?
I read it as your slot as a whole but Dann being the focus from who begun it.
I dont think anyone is blaming you for the DGB lim at all. But more commenting out how your slots actions were either from a town or scum minded stance.

I'm not sure I understand what the issue is here?
The argument of Dann isn't here is very weak as you know as much as I do, when you replace in, you take all of the cons and pros of that slot.
You won't know the thought process of what Dann did, but Dann's actions fall on you regardless.

[VFP]

Ew

[VFP]

How noble

[VFP]

I don't know if Llama is conftown but I know that they are obvtown to me. If Llama really is scum, it should become obvious with time.

It's comments like this that just make me think I could be onto something.
Why would Llama in particular become obvious as scum over everyone else? To my knowledge you don't have experience together?
Either that or everything you just posted is safe and convenient.
It's basically an over extended post that just keeps saying me and Clidd aren't scum together.

[VFP]

Only confirmed town you, you mean.

[VFP]

Pooky

- when you targeted Llama were you aiming for scum or town?

[VFP]

scum

I mean, it all adds up.
UNVOTE: Pooky

[VFP]

sorry, i just read back and realised you unvoted, not voted.
delete the last bit from my previous post.
instead, i'll ask why pooky's reasing for targetting llama makes you trust Pooky now?

I'm still at the mindset that is can be Pooky Llama and amelie.
But how Dann reacted, re reading Pookys small iso from yesterday and a few other things just tell me that Pooky is town.
Pooky had good reason to suspect Llama for the bad wagon swap that late in. May not have been screaming to the high tops that DGB was scum, but made it clear they had no interest there.

Mechanically and play wise I should town read Pooky here. Meaning I should town read Llama.

My over thinking is the issue and if we lose because im not pushing, hey we lose most likely anyway.

If Pooky was aiming for a town read on Llama I wouldn't have unvoted.

[VFP]

VFP what were you hoping to get from pooks with the scum/town answer?

If I was being an idiot or not.

[VFP]

@Flea

- is it safe to assume that we have 1-2 scum between us?

[VFP]

You mean between me and you, or in our reads? Because my PoE is the shittest one out there rn.

With me and you.
And this isn't a loaded question. Realistically at least 1 of us should be scum right? If not both to the outside eye.

[VFP]

If Pooky was aiming for a town read on Llama I wouldn't have unvoted.

Why?

Because Pooky would have no reason to visit Llama as a town read there.
Visiting a town read isn't exactly bad if it's to confirm, and if Llama was a town read I think clearing Llama over someone who may be scum (with doubt) is 100% reasonable. You just need to clear the reasoning to it though otherwise its probably false.

[VFP]

Imagine caring so little for the state of a game that you don't realise your biggest 'scum read' was already on E1 and requests for a counter wagon here.
Not to mention that neither me or Clidd are on Flea, yet the wagon is 'too convenient'.

[VFP]

That's a damn risky move you're making there. I approve

From an outside perspective, we're both part of a group PoE rn. Saying one of us is scum sounds like someones informed.

Asking if we're both scum would be gamethrowing and even rule breaking for me to say yes to, if that was my alignment. Basically this is an attempt to look busy while doing Aunt Fanny Addams.
The only legitimate answer that can be given no matter what my alignment, is there's 0-1 scum between us.

Definitely isn't a loaded question, it's a good attempt at looking busy though.

No, you mis understand me. Of course we aren't scum together *wink wink* and even if we were then we wouldn't say.
But to others we can easily be scum together. Follow the process back to our other bodies and see.
My point here was more, what is the common factor? It's aiming for a mis lim regardless, most likely 2 mis lim. The beauty of saying 1 of X and Y is scum, you get it wrong and can just push in a direction to fit your narrative.

It's not looking busy as I can pretend to be busy with just quoting old posts accordingly. Example can be provided.

[VFP]

Herosolve! VFP x Amélie.

VOTE: Amélie

Who's X?

[VFP]

I strongly disagree that this is scum flail. I do not believe any scum would not care about their elim to this extent and the emotion does not strike me as fake. Although I agree Goofball cannot be in endgame for obvious reasons, I think Goofball is for sure town here. Take a look at their posts when they were at E-1 or E-2. Is that really what scum would post there? I don't think so.

I don't like voting replacements so my vote for now will stay on VOTE: Clidd while I try to sort Flea the Magician. I will vote Flea the Magician if I must.

I can see Clidd thinking I am scum as town but I can't see Clidd thinking Goofball is scum

after Flea's posts because those were not convincing.

Like you said here.

You saw me pushing you as towny, but my fos on Dgb scummy. Now, however, you saw my push on you as scummy (?).

No I wanted to see how you would react, but.you completely mis understood what I was saying.
Having to explain it kind of defeated the purpose.

Who do you think is up for the chop when you are eliminated?
The PRs? No
Llama, Lotus? No
Amelie? This just seems like an impossible lim at this point.
That leaves not much to play with on a lim right or lose situation. Not to mention the NK hasn't even been a factor here.

Of course I'm going.to consider myself as a potential mis lim tomorrow if.you flip green.

[VFP]

Quoted wrong

[VFP]

I feel like that's a saying or something...
Call me scum, shame on you! Call me scum a second time, well then you're just scum!

[VFP]

Why Amélie an unreachable elimination? You're so set on being defeatist on my elimination I'm hella suspicious.

I don't even know how to answer this other than read the game? I can tell you this lim is not happening.
And I don't meta. Considering my only completed game you were dead when I joined...

But you're looking at this from a strange way. me and you being scum isn't un reasonable, it's just wrong.
I'm not sure how saying you think there are 0 scum within us though is a case to push informed on you. So if someone like Clidd is saying that there are 0 scum in me and them, is that being informed? considering you know it's not a loaded question.
Personally I'm favouring 0 out of it with us, but not greatly.
Your lim just seems too simple here, and the only connect I would happily put you with is Gera. That means I'd be missing something here.

I think a Gera flip is what gives you motive on yesterday's refusing to swap from the DGB wagon.
If Gera is scum, then the motive is obviously to save a buddy.
If Gera is town, then it just means your plasy was bad, as scum wouldn't care for the Gera flip and probably would be better to kepp DGB alive 1 more day.

You flipping green doesn't benefit what Gera is here.
Flipping red makes Gera look red too though.

I just think people aren't thinking about the lim so much to what information we get, but rather what looks to be the obvious pick.

[VFP]

Sounds like a solid read in fairness.

[VFP]

VFP is daring me to not vote for flea because of reasons???

No idea how you got to this stage...

[VFP]

If Flea is red, then today is just obvious distancing attempt from Flea to amelie.
Nice.

[VFP]

Just looks to me that people are starting to try and stretch a back up plan with their reads.
So I'm back to.

No lim
Llama
Lotus
Pooky
A50

I will hammer any and the next on E1
Titus
Flea
Clidd
Gera

Out of the 4 Gera gives me more information I think.
So that's your pre warning, consider my next vote as a hammer.

[VFP]

@VFP - you are saying you'd be happy to hammer any of those slots - has there been a point today though when Clidd was at E-1 and you didnt hammer (VC 3.04). why was that?

What kind if question is this?
My post came after the E1 (by a lot actually). And even had Flea at E1 since.

You are asking why I didn't end the day early when it wasn't even half way there.

[VFP]

the flea at e-1 was an error, my vote on them wasn't correct. that's why i didn't mention that.

Fair enough.
Still unsure what you're expecting with that question.

Thats closer to a loaded question though. The aim is most likely to throw shade on me trying to go with the narrative of me and Clidd as buddies without just stating this stance.
It's picking what is a convenient but NAI plausible situation while ignoring the information surrounding it.
Basically, this looks bad on you.

If anything, me not placing the hammer on Clidd should show we are either T/T or S/T given how I didn't place it on DGB ( given that I claim I would have).

[VFP]

Scum might just have a doc and role blocker. Or maybe a JOAT with doc and roleblocking ability.
I'm not sure how a JOAT with doc would appear for a gun Smith? A JOAT that can't NK maybe?

[VFP]

From my view, it seems complicated a Joat here, since his interaction with the gs would be confuse.

But thats the point.
Other you have a possible out come like the below.

N1
X can /can't kill
X has / hasn't a gun
X is VT / Not VT

Does nm make it a possible N1 solve? I think not.

Then we go into night 2
X has / hasn't killed
X has / hasn't a gun
X is VT / not VT

And you get the drift...

I don't think it matters if scum have a JK and a Roleblocker there, standardly this would highly be in favour for town to solve by day 3 more times than not.
I'm pretty sure I've seen scum cop a few times with no vigilante but with just a Gunsmith.

Scum doc in what ever form is most likely unless you believe there's some naughty naughty going on with PR claims.

[VFP]

the gunsmiths are gated and have 6 "guilty" results and half of them are town
the neapolitian has 7 "guilty" results and 4 of them are town.
the detective is novice, can really only nail one of the scum so he's only useful if he goes long into the game but even then probably won't get a useful result.
the psychologist is a one shot and they only get a hit on 2/12 players?

With the idea that you and A50 are town. What 3 town roles do the Gunsmiths get has a gun result?
I know a Gunsmith would give this result but I didn't think the others would?

And wouldn't the psychologist be 3/12 since its night 1? Although I guess it depends on what order actions work.

If the Gunsmith does see other roles with a Gun then yeah I can see the counter there.
But I highly doubt its just 3 goons regardless.

[VFP]

I think Detective also has a gun.

Psych can only catch 2 of the scum based on NAR.

It doesn't actually matter what PR the mafia has because we're pretty much at the low end of the town power range imo since none of the 5 TPRs are "strong" per-se.

Interesting to learn that, I've never taken this into consideration with detectives and cops in general I assume?

I'm pretty happy with this right now.

[VFP]

Someone should vote Flea or Clidd.

[VFP]

Maybe it's just as simple as 1 of
Titus / Gera/ Flea
Clidd / Gera/ Flea

[VFP]

I would also expect the scum to take a no bus position here.

If all the PR claims are true, then scum need every role to deal with them and outlast the clears. If the claims are false, then scum likely already took the no bus position and feel rather weak on dayplay.

I actually fully agree with this.

Flea The Magician (3)- LlamaFluff, PookyTheMagicalBear, RLotus (E-2)

clidd (3)- geraintm, Titus, Flea The Magician (E-2)

But which one...

[VFP]

What are your thoughts on each wagon?

I believe one wagon has scum. 2-3
And 1 wagon is most likely full town

[VFP]

''Stop the spam'', yeah, I can see that coming, but besides that.

I quite like the spam.

[VFP]

Based on your reads on individual slots, which do you think is most likely and why?

The way I see it, it's improbable that all 3 scum are on Flea.
2 Green checks and a PR claim on the wagon.

Pooky was on Gera Day 2 and shoeing no sign to move. Llama started the Gera wagon getting traction and Lotus is only scum if Mafia Doc.
So thats the Flea wagon.

Clidd wagon.
3 of the 4 PoE + scummy are voting here.
You / amelie most likely scum. Amelie spent all game giving convenient reads and not even reading the game.
Gera was the counter to DGB and DGB was the lim. Also not looking good today
Flea just falls under PoE.

And that's the clidd wagon.

So I'm still trying to decide which one has the scum on and which one has the town on.

[VFP]

Do you think I'm scum, Vfp? (considering that I'm seeing you as a potential scum by PoE)

Probably not. But you're still plausible.
If you're town, you should be more worried if you and Flea are town because that probably makes me scum by default alone.

[VFP]

Well let's face it, even if a PR claim is fake both won't be.
Out of the 4 from PR claims and clears, at least 3 are going to be town.

That leaves me, Titus, Gera and the extra (if the extra is even there)
By default I'm scum with Titus and Gera more than not.

[VFP]

Based on this, you have a pretty strong rationale for voting Flea and not voting Clidd as much as I'd prefer Clidd based on play.

I'll vote anyone one of you 4 once E1 is hit.

[VFP]

Which do you scumread more by play? It's clear by strategy you should prefer Flea (max 1 scum) over Clidd (higher max probability of scum) but yet you haven't just sheeped. That suggests to me that you think there's a play reason for Clidd being scum.

Clidd spent a lot of time yesterday agreeing with my views or at least not being against them.
Although that should just mean we both scum read correctly here, I'm maybe being pocketed.
I have an odd feeling over Clidd but I think Clidd has kept the game moving more than anyone. Also showing a lot of doubt and double thinking on reads like I have been.
Flea has made some questionable posts today that I feel were just, odd. But it originally seemed too easy of a lim. Until you look at the wagons of course.

[VFP]

Could you describe what you liked/disliked about my posting? no wallposts, thanks.

It's more or less in my last post.
Your showing effort and progression on reads. And looking to why they can be wrong. Personally I like that as a town mind set (without just mindless flip flopping)

[VFP]

Gera seems to be at the root of all possible scum teams.
Just throwing that out there.

[VFP]

VOTE: Gera

[VFP]

If Gera flips red PR, then the entire wagon is town, remember that.
Gera goon most likely the same but still minor caution.

I don't see Gera flipping green here.

[VFP]

Let's hear if A50 has anything of detail.
Otherwise I'm on Flea.

[VFP]

Why Flea?

I feel that wagon was far too fast to be pure.

Because Flea out right refused to vote Gera when it was Gera vs DGB and was even going for a no lim over voting Gera.
That wagon was too fast to not be pure.

As you said, scum don't bus in that situation.
Flea scum means you scum thats why I say we go Flea first.

[VFP]

Also, between Gera, amelie/Titus, and Flea/Alice, the only time they vote within these 3 slots was Flea yesterday when the lim on Flea looked locked, so it was most likely some distancing attempt.

I need to check properly when I'm at my PC that this is correct, but I'm confident it is.

So Llama is actually confirmed town now
Clidd is lock town for me
A50 I'm going to assume was blocked, but hopefully not. Still town.
Lotus only scum as a mafia doc

[VFP]

I think it's both so unless A50 has anything for us I'll go either but I'd prefer a Flea.
A50 might actually have a result here. Otherwise I'm not sure why Pooky is killed over A50. Pooky gives a confirmed town, A50 gives a most likely town.
And either cause probably the same doubt on each other.

Maybe this just means scum have a scum doctor and it wasn't with Lotus. A50 having a read today will lock Lotus as town for me.
A50 not having a read won't impact my town (small potential scum) read on Lotus though.

[VFP]

You literally just said why Pooky is a better target than A50.

Also whats with the scumdoc vibe you seem obsessed with?

No?
Pooky gives a confirmed town.
A50 doesn't.

They match on shade.

My personal view is about the scum doctor but I doubt you and Titus were talking about what I would and wouldn't like, last night.

My obsession is we didnt hit the PR we wanted.
Scum have a PR still since they also have a negative.

[VFP]

And to clarify, the only 2 scum roles that work in this setup will be Mafia doc or roleblocker.
And we find out which one they have depending on what A50 says.

[VFP]

But that's my point. If A50 was killed then we have 2 most likely town who both have small potential as a lim.
Not there is only 1 as a potential lim.

It's pure speculation, but I think I'm right here.

Are you good with a Titus lim so far today, Flea?

[VFP]

I get setting up my miselimination is likely why Gera was bussed. It is what it is. I'm still going to scumhunt but I'm gravely concerned about the autopilot that is this game.

Then change my mind.
I'm always willing to listen to reason.

[VFP]

Well at least that locks Lotus as town for me.
Even if A50 is just lying there, Solon doesn't clear a buddy night 1.

[VFP]

It is just Flea and Titus at this stage.

[VFP]

Llama

Lotus
Clidd

A50

Titus
Flea

Even if I'm added into the red, I think the game is solved.

VOTE: Flea
I'll hammer Titus if put to E1 though.

[VFP]

Unless A50 was the target N2?

[VFP]

removing clears, mechclear and soft clears, yes. that said, nice catch from Llama.

VOTE: A50

What was a nice catch about it?
The target would have been Pooky or A50.
DGB already confirmed no more shots.

It's strongly plausible that scum took Pooky as a tracker, regardless of what they were it was said by multiple players and was a fitting role to the target (DGB). Gera makes the kill, they are covered.
Solon claims nothing about their role but has a green on someone.

Realistically who gets blocked here? Who is the bigger threat?

You look desperate at this point Flea! Just take the lim with dignity!

[VFP]

Let's not forget, Flea was most likely a prime candidate for Gretchen to check. There's a reason Gretechen was killed because getting a "has not killed" N2 doesn't clear anyone.
Let's confirm here, scum thought Gretchen getting a kill / not killed was a lot scarier than Pooky tracking or visiting them at all. And even more so caring less about an A50 green/red result if town.

Titus is the RB
Flea is a goon.

VOTE: Titus
Again, I'll hammer Flea at E1.

[VFP]

You realise that if you have no action you are not told that you are blocked, right?
Thats not how a RB works, otherwise the argument here would be why did no one claim it D2.

Let's face it, if its me and you're town, then I'm scum with Titus.
I want to lim the RB if I'm scum so either way I'm probably right.

So just vote your buddy. Or just do what you have done all game and not vote scum, I don't care.

[VFP]

So why would scum RB target a non-claimed PR?

Given the spec, why would we even have an RB? Takes some serious efforts to get a solid mech clear that's usable given the PRs we have. Don't get me wrong, scum prolly have a power. I'm not thinking RB though.

Wanna talk down to me, go for it. I got nothing to fear because my green flip will screw you over and you know it VFP

This is what happens when an Odd night Gunsmith is roleblocked N2.

A) That Odd night Gunsmith is told

B) That Odd night Gunsmith isn't told

What power are you thinking?

Also, if you think what I'm doing it talking down to you, I apologies, it was just meant to be a little dig. I'm just confident in you 2 as scum here.
Who's my buddy btw?

[VFP]

Because A50 claimed day 3 and day 2 Solon/A50 was just known as someone who can get a green result.
I already said this.

You going for the "why" play hasn't changed my mind for the record.

[VFP]

Just trying to see what you're seeing.

You should try being less aggressive.

The thing is I'm not sure if you're just asking the same things over or questioning for an answer I have already given to try and look town.
Or if you're actually scum who didn't understand what I was saying.
It's a frustrating tactic from scum if the first one and not something I'm generally a fan of.

[VFP]

I'm fine with the setup being exactly

Odd Night Gunsmith
Even Night Gunsmith
Novice Detective
Night 1 Psychologist
??? Neapolitian

because normals tend to get approved with 5 TPRs

the Gunsmiths are balanced by the fact that they get false-guilties on Detective/Gunsmith so it's roughly 50/50 on the guilty hit rate

The Neap is balanced by the fact that 4/7 of their "guilties" are false guilties. The other 2 invest roles are fairly weak imo.

It's a theme that fits. I highly doubt the mafia would have a doctor, the only game I've played as a mini normal where the gunsmith could get false innos on a mafia doctor was Boardgames and that Mafia Doctor was designed to counter the town vig and the town gunsmith and it was announced at the beginning of the game that a mafia doctor was in the game.

As that town was roughly the same power level as this one, I would expect a mafia doctor to be similarly announced as a possibility.

there doesn't so far seem any interference from scum in any of the roles, everyone has said their actions have gone through i believe. which makes me think that either scum have a role/ability that screws with our PRs, or else they PRs aren't all they appear to be.

scum don't need to screw with the PRs because the PRs aren't very strong to begin with.

the gunsmiths are gated and have 6 "guilty" results and half of them are town
the neapolitian has 7 "guilty" results and 4 of them are town.
the detective is novice, can really only nail one of the scum so he's only useful if he goes long into the game but even then probably won't get a useful result.
the psychologist is a one shot and they only get a hit on 2/12 players?

Like there's really no reason to give the scum any powers to counter any of this, it's fairly balanced as claimed.

Pooky has it right here.
As I said, Gretchen was killed for a reason. That reason wasn't because they might get a "has not killed" result.
It's because the 2 targets that Gretchen checks - A50 and Flea. A50 as a PR would not be making the kill, Flea would be. And because A50 is a claimed PR no doubt Flea would be favoured over A50 for the check.

It really is just Titus and Flea here.
Titus flipping roleblocker gives A50 as a confirmed along with Lotus as confirmed.
Flea should always consider Titus as scum here, even if it's with me, Clidd, A50 or whatever. Yet Flea votes A50, votes me and is just ignoring voting Titus.
Titus is ignoring voting Flea, and as pointed out the only vote that Gera / Titus (and slot) / Flea (and slot) that was cast on each other was Flea's vote when the lim was nearly locked in.
It's because flipping PR Titus today is a guaranteed town win.

[VFP]

Look at Gera's ISO.
See something that's a pattern?
The lack of communication with any of the following names.
Alice / Amelie / Flea / Titus (0 here).

clidd, RLotus, Dannflor, Gretchen, Featherless Biped, bugspray, Solon
These were the votes on the wagon yesterday.

Was always focused that scum was on the wagon.

ok, i am going back to work out who i want to vote for.
i am still wanting to eliminate someone on the wagon yesterday, because i hated everyone on it when i went through the votes and how they happened.

They were
clidd, RLotus, Dannflor, Gretchen, Featherless Biped, bugspray, Solon

Playing it off hard that scum was on the wagon. Do you notice who wasn't on the wagon?

i believe when i went through the wagon from yesterday i found clidd and bugspray the two people most likely to be scum. the amelia/alice/DGB triplet were not on the wagon so i never really put any under the same lens as those who were on.
i try and pick groups i think have the highest likelihood of being scum and looking at them. yesterday's wagon is one group. the claimed power roles would be another, but i am happy to leave them alone to sort themselves out tomorrow.
i am not saying there isn't likely to be scum in the AAD grouping, but i think if i voted there it would likely be a tossup and with no logic behind it, unlke my clidd vote. i can at least back up my thinking there and explain why i have voted and to me that is important.

Playing off as people who were in the lim pool not being on the bus so never tried to sort.

Flea

they were Alice day 1 and not on the wagon.
but day 2, boy were they all over DGB
their 5th post they voted for them. and it never, ever moved. I am someone who it takes a lot to get me worked up to a vote, and i cannot understand how a player new to game is so certain and just never shifts. it is the sort of thing i might do, but it is unusual from anyone else.
is this normal for flea?

Talking about the wagon again, trying to make it a thing of scum being there. Softly adding to a popular scum read while giving an out for Flea.

VFP, PookyTheMagicalBear, clidd, LlamaFluff, RLotus

that feels like the last 2 are town, so the people driving it are on their early. clidd just keeps popping up everywhere i look, and i want to play the odds on catching scum.
VOTE: clidd

Back to me, Pooky, and Clidd as scum.
Notice who isn't scum for Gera?

Whenever Gera ever commented on Alice / Amelie / Flea there was always a minor doubt comment followed by a counter argument or a focus else where. The post count of interacting with who I'm calling scum was minimal.

HypoSoc

(7)-

clidd

,

RLotus

,

Dannflor

,

Gretchen

,

Featherless Biped

,

bugspray

,

Solon

Eliminated

All town

DrippingGoofball

(6)-

FleaTheMagician

,

geraintm

,

Gretchen

,

RLotus

,

LlamaFluff

,

clidd

-ELIMINATED

Gera's counter wagon
Do scum really not vote DGB over Gera here? Gera was E1...

geraintm

(5)-

LLamaFluff

,

clidd

,

PookyTheMagicalBear

,

Almost50

,

VFP

-ELIMINATED

Flea is such an easy lim still if town. Why does A50 take away scums ability to talk in the day? I can understand if A50 had pressure to vote, but comes in at E2, puts a vote down. If scum would have most likely seen in the PT that I will hammer and just avoided it.

clidd

(3)-

geraintm

,

Titus

,

Flea The Magician

(E-2)

Not to mention, this was Gera's counter wagon.

I would also expect the scum to take a no bus position here. If all the PR claims are true, then scum need every role to deal with them and outlast the clears. If the claims are false, then scum likely already took the no bus position and feel rather weak on dayplay.

[VFP]

Town:

bugspray

Null:

Entrapta

,

Minimegabyte

Scum:

Clidd

,

Gretchen

,

AliceK

Town:

bugspray

,

April Ludgate

Null:

Minimegabyte

,

AliceK

,

Gretchen

Scum:

Clidd

,

Entrapta

,

Ydrasse

Town:

bugspray

,

April Ludgate

,

Gretchen

Null:

Minimegabyte

,

AliceK

,

Ydrasse

Scum:

Clidd

,

Entrapta

Town:

bugspray

,

Gretchen

Null:

Minimegabyte

,

AliceK

,

Ydrasse

Scum:

Clidd

,

Entrapta

,

April Ludgate

Town:

bugspray

,

Gretchen

,

Entrapta

Null:

Minimegabyte

,

AliceK

,

Ydrasse

Scum:

Clidd

,

April Ludgate

Town:

Gretchen

,

Da dude

,

Clidd

,

Minimegabyte

Null:

Klick

,

Geraintm

,

AliceK

Concerned with:

Gretchen

,

DrippingGoofball

,

RLotus

Scum:

April Ludgate

,

bugspray

Town:

Da dude

,

Clidd

,

Minimegabyte

,

Klick

Null:

Geraintm

,

bugspray

,

Gretchen

,

DrippingGoofball

,

RLotus

Scum:

April Ludgate

,

AliceK

,

Hyposack

Town:

Da dude

,

Clidd

,

Minimegabyte

, (

Klick

)
Null:

Geraintm

,

bugspray

,

Gretchen

,

RLotus

,

Hyposack

, (

Klick

)
Scum:

April Ludgate

,

AliceK

,

DrippingGoofball

Town:

Clidd

Null:

Geraintm

,

RLotus

,

Dannflor

,

Solon

,

VFP

,

Bugspray

Scum:

AliceK

,

DrippingGoofball

,

Gretchen

amelie has Gera just sat as null the whole time. Doesn't interact at all with Gera but keeps calling Gera scum. Never votes.
Calls Alice / Flea scum the whole time. Never votes. Even goes as far to say that a lim on me and Clidd (This is what a T/S 'read' does) is better than on Flea who is scum.
It makes no sense for town to think this way, even if you're not paying attention to the game.

[VFP]

Solon.

I don't want to say too much, but the Novice Detective role makes some sense alongside my own role.

I'm not the best at setup spec but this is what I feel right now.

I am the only claimer that has promised hard info Tomorrow, and yet someone said I was the most likely to be lying?

Very likely green light anyway

I don’t feel the need to reveal the specifics at this point, you’ll see when I flip

This is actually bad for A50.
Why was Solon not role blocked N1? I had it in my head that Solon just claimed day 2.
Also, I'm not sure how Even night Gun smith works with Novice Detective?
Is a Novice Roleblocker even a thing?

I don't know, this is giving me a headache I'm going to sleep on it.

[VFP]

Scum could have a JOAT with one roleblock or something

Or maybe the rber targeted gretchen night 1

No, not the Novice Detective.
Maybe a JOAT. I don't know.

Something tells me that it's still just Flea + Titus though.
Why does A50 put a buddy to E1 when they just haven't posted anyway?

Scum Titus never tries to lim Gera here and lose the day talk. It's a huge tool for scum to lose and I feel like people are ignoring that Gera was important to be alive.
Yesterday's situation of course keeping a RB alive over day talk is better but standardly I'd always sacrifice scum PR to keep day talk.

[VFP]

Still right.

[VFP]

Hey VFP, why were you so passive about my "inevitable elimination" yesterday and yet today you're gunnin for blood?

Because a lot has happened since then?
I'm not sure what town you is arguing/implying here? That I tried to stop a lim on you and just wanted to push a Gera lim instead?
I can be scum for town you, but not for what you're going for.

[VFP]

I'm still unclear to who you think my buddy is.
The only one for town you should be Titus. I'm voting Titus so why not just lim my buddy and play for the lim on me tomorrow?
If its A50 you think as scum, I can't be scum. Both voting Gera like that yesterday would be borderline game throwing.
Me and Lotus is impossible because it would mean RB is confirmed and Lotus was a green check.
Me and Clidd are plausible in the sense of maybe we were forced to vote Gera, but if anyone thinks that Clidd is scum here you're either town not trying or scum.

The only 2 buddies for A50 can be Lotus and Titus
Solon clearing a buddy night 1 is too risky and nothing had reason to do so.
So A50 scum means Titus scum.

These are you're only realistic options if town
Me / Titus
A50 / Titus

Titus has just given up in this game by the looks of it.

[VFP]

The fact you just keep avoiding that Titus is always scum to town you just means you are scum with them.
There's not a lot more for us to discuss though since you just want to avoid this.

Titus RB
Flea goon

N1 worried that Solon was baiting a visit, targeted elsewhere
Amelie blocks VT
Alice kills

N2 amelie blocks A50
Flea kills

N3 Titus blocks A50
Flea kills

Scum talk about giving up.
Titus actually gives up.

How am I doing?

[VFP]

You are not pushing on Titus.
You say it's within me, A50 and Titus... Yet the only one you haven't voted for is Titus here.

I do not believe that you ever vote Titus today.

[VFP]

Yet I'm voting Titus and not you.
So again, what you're saying doesn't add up.

You just know that flipping Titus as a RB is a loss.
It goes to 5 players after the NK with only me and you being the 2 out of 5 lim options.

[VFP]

There's multiple approaches to doing something ya know.

You're pushing me pretty hard now, and yeah your vote is on Titus, but you stink of agenda.

Well you still haven't given me reason to think I'm wrong.
For a someone who has a scum pool, you are pretty happy to just sit with a vote on me and not even attempt actually sort else where.
Your posts are empty and desperate.

If you really want to convince me that you're town (since its plausible we are both wrong here) then start by giving scum pairing possibilities.
I have a total of 3. How many do you have?
Let's see if you are willing to even look like you want to solve the game.

[VFP]

Lets tone down for a moment while we discuss. I'm giving us both an opportunity to get a clear understanding of each other and our thoughts if town.

To to confirm your possible teams are the below?
Me + Titus
Me + A50
Titus + A50

My 3 possible teams are
You + Titus. This is my favoured one and it lines up better than any with N2 scum actions.
Titus + A50. This is the backup team if you're town. Both just adding nothing since joining in.
You + A50. This is just what I see as a possibility. I don't think this is the case but it's there.

So we both agree that A50 clearing a scum buddy on N1 isn't happening, right?

Okay unless I got confused with your 3 above let's move on unless you want to discuss more there.

If you had to choose, was Gretchen killed for the role or the reads? This isn't a loaded question before you ask.

[VFP]

Why does the NK on Pooky go towards me and not towards Titus here though?

But it wasn't a coin flip of Gretcdhen or A50, it was also Pooky. So I assume you are going with the kill was because of the role rather than reads (correct me if I'm wrong of course).
Gretchen's role outed day 1 is very weak all game. It means that scum can play to Gretchens reads concerning the kill.

The problem with comments like A50 is almost confirmed scum if not killed tonight, and if actually town is A) scum lining up a mis lim to win B) town lining up a mis lim to lose.

Example. Me and Titus as scum together. Now all we have to do is lim you then not kill A50. It's a win.

Something I struggle with as well is if you're town how you even consider me and A50 as a possibility.
For us to be scum together we actively wanted to lim Gera over a mis lim. As I said, that play is borderline going against our wincon. With how it would have been carried out.

[VFP]

Even when I say let's tone it down and discuss normally Flea, You just have to post like that.
So okay I'm done talking to you this game my votes are locked on you and Titus.
Pretty funny I give you an entire boat to help understand you, and you still fall out of the side.

If anyone else wants discussion then sure.
I'm telling you now though that Titus RB and Flea is Goon. Just look over what is obvious.

[VFP]

I recently replaced into a game that is over now.
I took over a scum slot during the night and was shot so I didn't get to post in game. However, Titus was also scum and was the lim the day before I was shot.

In the Mafia chat Titus had already given up and wanted to forfeit the game. Pooky was the other scum who actually almost won the game.
So the fact that Titus has given up here just gives me the exact same vibes from that game.

Game was Envoys of Entrapy by Gamma.

[VFP]

Sorry the name was wrong.
The game is
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=85398

[VFP]

viewtopic.php?f=90&t=85782

This was the mafia chat

[VFP]

Remember, a RB flip here means the below.
Confirmed town
A50
Llama
Lotus

Clidd will be clear as both scum would have pushed.

So it's a win then.

[VFP]

I'll wait and see.

[VFP]

I hope all the best IRL on a side not.

[VFP]

Note*

[VFP]

Remember, a RB flip here means the below.
Confirmed town
A50
Llama
Lotus

Clidd will be clear as both scum would have pushed.

So it's a win then.

If you explained, I probably didn't pay attention, but what made you come to the inference that Titus is specifically RB instead of just "scum"?

Because of Gretchen being the PR threat N2.
Gretchen only finds killers and the 2 targets would have been A50 or Flea.
A50 would be a PR and not make the kill. That means Flea would be a goon and a threat from making the kill.
And Titus scum with Flea means there has to be a RB. That RB has to be Titus.

I'm still waiting on the flip, Titus can still be the RB here. Goon flip Flea might not be scum.

But I'm not going.to go back and fourth right now.

[VFP]

I think it might just be A50 and not Flea.

[VFP]

Flea ticks all the boxes when it comes to voting to be scum.
Maybe Gretechen just dies because of the push on A50.
Flea doesn't fit the RB here, so it just goes to explain Solon not RB and A50 being inactive all game.

I think it's a win with A50 lim.

@Clidd

Thoughts on this?

[VFP]

A50 give some thoughts on the game?
The alternative lim to you today would be Flea but your post makes it sound like you know they are flipping town.

Unless you think I'm the 3rd scum?

[VFP]

VFP was manipulating and amending information with me

False.

[VFP]

VOTE: Almost50
I hope this ends the game because I don't think I can be bothered with Flea using such a tragic scum strat if A50 is green.
Not that being town and using such a strat is any better.

[VFP]

I don't think I could have taken another day there.

[VFP]

Well good try scum it was decent efforts.

@Clidd

- I really like playing with you I feel we bounced off each other really well and reading your thoughts when they matched or wen tthe same direction as mine really helped me not flip flop like I normally do as much.
Thanks everyone else and thanks NM, I like the setup, not seen a scum Gunsmith before myself but it's a nice touch.