Mini Normal 2205: RotITGBSMoD [game over!]

[Asteria]

Weird post, Asteria.

Scum would have more reasons not to push you after a claim than the other way around.

I'm saying if I'm right on osuka being scum then this is what happened

But that's forcing an unsatisfactory explanation to fit a particular theory of yours and not an impartial thought about Asuka.

I know, I'm not intending to paint it as a case or anything. I'm just saying it's an explanation that fits my read

[Asteria]

it's like, we're not yeeting koba for the same reason we're not yeeting asteria today. 0 chance I think they're real, especially the "docs healed me and VFP" ok, why is your first thought scum saved you? not town has a doc that saved you? idk, I think the vig claim is worse than the neo claim, but we're not yeeting either right now

Agreed, PRs should be left alone.

[Asteria]

p-edit we can't keep saying "we'll let it resolve itself". we have to take action on someone eventually, and sooner or later a PR claim is gonna have to be challenged with a bullet. why not today?

I understand where you're coming from but there are other lower risk elims we can make on people who are actually scummy and not just mechanically not likely/bad claim

[Asteria]

osuka is sitting in my PoE and null.

osuka is null?

Well this supports my gth team

[Asteria]

In specific, this line you said:
> i don't see how koba would know there was a gunsmith regardless. not like mafia is informed of the town PRs, right?

Town is the ones uncertain there's a gs, mafia is most likely believing my claim just like they bought the tracker claim "not like the mafia is informed of town PRs" I claimed gs way before koba entered...

The gs thing was a partial soft to my own role because i didnt want to claim at the time.

Wait how is gs a soft for weak vig?

[Asteria]

Hoping to eliminate osuka. I'm having a hard time reading their push on me in good faith

[Asteria]

But how does gs soft weak vig

[Asteria]

rise and shine maybe we should actually get a wolf today to mix things up. VOTE: DkKoba

rest well Andante

Yeah idk, 2 nights of no shot is suspicious. I was voting here but Koba is at E-2

andante was shot over asteria because asteria isnt even active on n2

kinda leaning towards voting koba because for me to believe their claim it would have to be a ungated roleblocker and a mafia doctor against a weak vig + informed gunsmith... and that's like looking pretty scumsided

Agree with the reason andante was shot over me. Also keep in mind how the guns have to work for Koba to have one. We have 3 for town which means scum can only have 1 gun. Doc and traitor both don't have guns but I think everything else scum does (which would be a roleblocker in this case). I'm still doubtful on that setup making sense. Also the roleblocker might not be ungated. If Koba tells the truth their shot could have landed on doc protected scum.

I'm pretty sure all scum are within Anya, Andre, Osuka, and Pooky.

If we decide against Koba today I'd be more than happy to go osuka.

I can’t see Asteria being Scum and voting them before tonight is certainly a bad idea

Just commenting on this to say I'm biased but agree. At least give me a chance to try to use my ability. I'll give info D4 if I'm alive and then you elim me because I really should not be alive

I doubt asteria is killed tonight

???

okay first thing's first. i am hardclaiming

town N2 rolecop

. crumbed it in the first word(s) of each line of this post:

n two

other quick points

-

role

claiming this messily after like 5 pages of softclaiming and floundering and confusion makes it pretty much unthinkable to me that andante is being anything but genuine here. my shaky but incredibly persistent gut townread had some merit to it all along dadgummit
-

cop

, mafia, vig, gunsmith, etc. all have guns. given the wide range of roles that can possess guns, i don't think focusing too hard on the total number before anyone at all has flipped is going to grant us any useful setup information. i still don't truly understand why you're so convinced a traitor must be in here. again, trackers do NOT have guns, so it doesn't tell us anything about the veracity of robert's claim. why didn't you bother to verify that before going down this road?

i had hoped to get this claim in at the very start of the day to avoid the appearance of picking a side with my night result, but the late daystart meant that i fell asleep before that could happen.


i checked

PookyTheMagicalBear

in hopes of identifying him as either traitor or doc. it felt more productive than attempting to sus out a town fakeclaim.

he is confirmed vanilla townie

.

I don't think Lemons is lying here because if he was he would either choose something different than a rolecop when we already have a nea, or he would be saying since he's a rolecop we probably wouldn't have a nea too and try to get me elimed. He's not doing either of these.

We know for fact that one of the claims is lying now. We have 4 guns claimed and 4 guns total. I don't think Lemons and Koba are both lying so I'm thinking we are dealing with a traitor. If one of them is lying I would bet Koba. Lemons is in a good position right now as scum and this would be a really risky move. Especially since if we do elim me or koba and find out they are town, Lemons would be in a very bad position.

[Asteria]

20 pages in one day

We know for fact that one of the claims is lying now. We have 4 guns claimed and 4 guns total. I don't think Lemons and Koba are both lying so I'm thinking we are dealing with a traitor. If one of them is lying I would bet Koba. Lemons is in a good position right now as scum and this would be a really risky move. Especially since if we do elim me or koba and find out they are town, Lemons would be in a very bad position.

i'm willing to call this a scumslip. in trying to curry favour by defending players she knows to be town, scum!asteria has revealed that she is mentally counting herself as armed mafioso rather than as her real claim. town!asteria does not believe that koba and i are both telling the truth, because to believe so necessitates the belief that none of the mafia are armed. and we know she didn't just miss the andante flip because she directly quotes anya's "rip andante" message earlier in the same post.

sound reasonable to anyone else?

What?? How does what I said not make sense to you from a town PR perspective. You should be in the exact same boat as me if your claim is true.
Me - gun
Andante - gun
Lemon - gun
Koba - gun

That's 4 guns. Scum has to have at least 1 gun. I don't think both Lemon and Koba are lying so that leads me to believe scum only have 1 gun (

because 1 of them is lying but

not both

.

) Which means doc and traitor or doc and doc.

i'm willing to call this a scumslip. in trying to curry favour by defending players she knows to be town, scum!asteria has revealed that she is mentally counting herself as armed mafioso rather than as her real claim. town!asteria does not believe that koba and i are both telling the truth, because to believe so necessitates the belief that none of the mafia are armed. and we know she didn't just miss the andante flip because she directly quotes anya's "rip andante" message earlier in the same post.

I’m not following this logic at all. Walk me through it like I was a child.

we have 4 gunned PR claims:
- Andante as gunsmith (confirmed)
- Asteria as neapolitan (unconfirmed)
- DK as weak vig (unconfirmed)
- me as role cop (unconfirmed)

knowing that we have 4 guns in play, the possibilities are:

- Andante + 2 gunned mafia + {Asteria, Dk, or me}
- Andante + 1 gunned mafioso + {Asteria and Dk, Asteria and me, or Dk and me)

Asteria is approaching this from the perspective that 2 people are telling the truth, which puts us in the second scenario. she asserts that these 2 people are myself and Dk, which would make

asteria herself the liar.

what sense does it make for a real Neapolitan to make this mistake? did she forget what was in her role PM? did she forget that andante died? not likely. what's more plausible to me is that, because

in her own mind

she is already accounted for as the gunned mafioso, she forgot to account for herself again in the PR pool.

it is impossible for nea!asteria to believe that Dk and I are both telling the truth, because that theory refutes her own claim.

the only way for this to have happened is by a massive blunder of logic, and the explanation for that blunfer that makes the most sense to me is that asteria forgot to account for herself in the PR claims.

The part I bolded is

exactly

what I said. I never said you and Koba are telling the truth. I said I don't think

both

of you are lying. Meaning I think 1 is telling the truth and the other is lying. Meaning I don't think both of you are scum and we're dealing with 2 gunned mafia.

So if Asteria is telling the truth, given your Role Cop Claim, DkKoba has to be lying. But that’s it no? Who else has claimed anything?

This is what I'm thinking. Lemon's claim doesn't make sense coming from mafia wanting a believable fakeclaim when they know I exist

But I don’t see how Asteria is implying that they’re Scum with the assumption that DkKoba and you Insidious aren’t both lying. If only one of them is lying, doesn’t scenario 2 still allow for Asteria to be Town? That’s what I’m not getting.

Like Asteria didn’t assert Insidious and Koba are both telling the truth, but I think Asteria was saying that they think only one of them is not. That’s different than what your interpretation is.

I’m trying to be careful with this because Scum slips are rare, and this one doesn’t feel like one at all to me.

Yes! And this is exactly what I said. Idk why Lemon's chose to interpret it as I think both are telling the truth when I said I don't think both are lying. Makes no sense

Frankly we need to sort out between {Asteria, Koba}. No other execution makes any sense, and VFP pushing Anya is absurd. If we get it right, we mostly likely clear 3 other players and put the Scum on the ropes. Take it that Insidious is telling the truth. I already had Pooky as very likely Town so I’ll buy the clear, which now 2 different players have confirmed in different ways (remember, Andante also cleared them of a gun and now we know they’re not a Doctor. They would have to be strictly Traitor and I’m not seeing that). So, Pooky would be cleared, and the two other gun claims would be cleared. That leaves a really narrow pathway to victory for Scum.

Unless Lemon's and Andres are scum together, I'm back to reading Andres as town

she asserts that these 2 people are myself and Dk, which would make asteria herself the liar.

Like yeah I think this assumption is incorrect. You should have asked to clarify before I think. I don’t take Asteria’s statement to mean that she thinks you and Koba are both telling the truth. The statement absolutely leaves the option open that 1 of you is lying, just not the both of you.

you're totally right. disregard everything I've said about this being a scumslip, i simply misread "i don't think both koba and lemons are lying" as "i don't think koba and lemons are lying"

I'll accept this but I'm still leaving everything I already typed up just to show my pov

Oh wait wait. No. The Neapolitan gets a Vanilla Townie result right?

I have a result telling me VFP is a vanilla townie so VFP is conftown from my pov

Wait so how do we ever not execute between Asteria and Koba here? What other execution even remotely makes sense? If Koba flips Scum, that’s good, we have a circle of trust of sorts and the Scum is outside. Unless there’s no Traitor and one of the PRs is Scum.

We vote Koba. Scum will nk me anyway because they don't want me clearing another townie or finding someone who isn't vanilla town. If I don't die overnight then I'll accept being eliminated because that makes 0 sense

Why does it make it false when the claim can get 2 town PRs mis lynched and just win the game?
It's not genius it's pretty basic scum play.

Well I doubt that Insidious is lying about their actual Role then. So the Scum have a N2 Role Cop, a Mafia Doctor, and a Role Blocker?

If this is the case then we still have a lie within the gun claims. I know I have a gun, Andante is confirmed to have a gun, and Lemon's was going after Koba right? So that doesn't make sense either.

[Asteria]

Normal Guidelines
A Traitor is considered Normal on mafiascum.net, as long as it:

gives a "guilty" result to Cops, an "innocent" result to Gunsmiths, and a "Traitor" result to Role Cops

Does this support our claims? A cop (me), gunsmith (Andante), and role cop (Lemons)? Then Koba is the odd one out?

There's something I want to check about Lemons and this is my reminder to do that after I catch up (also want to check clidd slot after the detective claim)

I called out lemon and now today theyre claiming role cop not on me which is BS

This is what's making me so torn on Koba or Lemons. Lemons felt so town to me the whole game but now their target just makes no sense

I feel like lemon claimed here so that they could resist my legacy read on them but also in a way that doesn't lock them in a cc with either PR

I could see this an I could see Andres' thing about Lemon's looking for the traitor

You’ve also used the “Scum slip” attack twice now. Once on Andante, and now on Asteria.

Look, it’s time to call bullshit. I will sheep VFP and execute amongst {Anya, Insidious}.

I'm ok with this.

asteria/dkkoba + t3? + bear??

Here’s the thing. This is a fascinating solve by Anya. Don’t you think? It heavily implies that a Traitor is present in the game. By this stage, you have a claim by Andante that there’s 4 guns, Koba is a claimed Weak Vig as per 2032, Andante is a claimed Gunsmith (but not in the solve, as per 1182, 1212), and Asteria is a claimed Neapolitan (2134). With a Mafia Doc, you know that either 2 of Asteria/Koba/Andante is Scum, or 1 is with a Traitor present. But they don’t seem to entertain the alternative at all if I’m not wrong. So if you TR Andante say, wouldn’t you speak about the entire situation, and how it could mean that both Asteria and Koba are Scum together?

i didn't see the 4 guns thing from andante

asteria and dkkoba were going for each other at the time and i felt like 1 of them was wolf

You didn't see the 4 guns claim? That was long before this post with a lot of discussion around it?

Also: I'm a town one-shot detective who got a negative result on Pooky during the N1 (he didn't try to kill anyone that night).

This may be useful for the setup spec ^

If this is serious we have 5 town guns claimed??

this implies lemon/asteria are scum

Well for me it implies Koba/lemon are scum

At this point is might be worth Anya, Osuka, and Andre claiming.
Since everyone is already outed and there's most likely 2+ scum in the PRs.

Yep, we're basically massclaimed now anyway

I don't think it's possible for us to be playing in a 0 gun scum world because that would be massive trolling by Datisi and the NRG.

I'd like to mass claim to figure out what the setup is and where the best elim is today.

I am a Vanilla Townie.

I'm gonna guess we have 2 lying. 3 is a lot

@Everyone voting me: of all the claims so far besides maybe Koba, I'm the one scum want to NK. Just leave me for scum to get

[Asteria]

Asteria [5]: DkKoba, Salsabil Faria, Andresvmb, InsidiousLemons, Anya

Asteria is the least likely to be Scum. Three of the Gun claims are on this wagon.

Green Crayons [5]: PookyTheMagicalBear, VFP, Robert M Hunter, Andante, T3

And this wagon looks pretty wholesome.

I want these in my iso to remind me to look over VCs. I think the gun claims are solvable if we incorporate interactions and VCs and everything else we know

I don't think it's possible for us to be playing in a 0 gun scum world because that would be massive trolling by Datisi and the NRG.

I'd like to mass claim to figure out what the setup is and where the best elim is today.

I am a Vanilla Townie.

clidd gun claim came last which is probably town dunno why he'd wanna put himself in that poe if he's wolf

also salsa was clearly town when she reacted to osuka

i'm vt

The PoE of guns is almost as bad for scum as the PoE of VTs at this point
I don't think holding on to salsa's reaction that early in the same is really viable anymore

Is a solve with Lemons + Asteria + Osuka possible?

Just gonna point out I'm semi-pushing Lemons and if we didn't have this mess of gun claims I would be pushing Osuka like I did last day

i'm willing to call this a scumslip. in trying to curry favour by defending players she knows to be town, scum!asteria has revealed that she is mentally counting herself as armed mafioso rather than as her real claim. town!asteria does not believe that koba and i are both telling the truth, because to believe so necessitates the belief that none of the mafia are armed. and we know she didn't just miss the andante flip because she directly quotes anya's "rip andante" message earlier in the same post.

I’m not following this logic at all. Walk me through it like I was a child.

we have 4 gunned PR claims:
- Andante as gunsmith (confirmed)
- Asteria as neapolitan (unconfirmed)
- DK as weak vig (unconfirmed)
- me as role cop (unconfirmed)

knowing that we have 4 guns in play, the possibilities are:

- Andante + 2 gunned mafia + {Asteria, Dk, or me}
- Andante + 1 gunned mafioso + {Asteria and Dk, Asteria and me, or Dk and me)

Asteria is approaching this from the perspective that 2 people are telling the truth, which puts us in the second scenario. she asserts that these 2 people are myself and Dk, which would make

asteria herself the liar.

what sense does it make for a real Neapolitan to make this mistake? did she forget what was in her role PM? did she forget that andante died? not likely. what's more plausible to me is that, because

in her own mind

she is already accounted for as the gunned mafioso, she forgot to account for herself again in the PR pool.

it is impossible for nea!asteria to believe that Dk and I are both telling the truth, because that theory refutes her own claim.

the only way for this to have happened is by a massive blunder of logic, and the explanation for that blunfer that makes the most sense to me is that asteria forgot to account for herself in the PR claims.

oh yeah i didnt notice that. good catch

it's almost as if ive been saying that slot is scum. that sounds familiar to me but i can't figure out why for the life of me

Interesting how Osuka is jumping on a "scumslip" that has already been proven to be based on incorrect logic...

how does lemons know i am a vanilla townie !?!?

Lemons got vanilla on you right? And Andante got no gun.

i agree with a lot of the points being made on dk and by play they are a very solid scumread for me. what i'm getting stuck on is that, as multiple people have pointed out, if there's a "real" vig they would have almost certainly cc'd or managed to kill someone by now. and if there is no other vig, then we have to ask ourselves: does a setup with a red herring mafia doctor really make it into the normal queue? my strong suspicion is no, but i'm unfamiliar with the approval process so i'd like to hear from people who are

I'm also unfamiliar but this makes sense. Why a mafia doctor if there's nothing to protect themselves from

[Asteria]

Anyway...

So at this point all 4 PRs should give 2 favoured scum in the PR claims.

I agree but I need some time to think on this.

I do know outside the PR pool I'm leaning Osuka/Anya though

wait nevermind that second point i keep forgetting the traitor knows who the mafia are i promise i'm not trying to dumbtell

p-edit ah fuck okay lemme reread

Someone tell me if this dumbtell is viable because I'm about to start considering it when reading Lemon's

That said I also think Koba's role makes the most sense with a mafia doctor and I don't see why the TPR pair would be a non-con nea and a night 2 role-cop. Also my mixed feelings on both those slots makes me think clidd is probably just scum and claiming in hope of more TPR elims.

Well seeing that I'm the last to answer that top question I'm gonna go ahead and say Clidd+Lemons are the scum. I feel best about clidd though. The reason I'm saying Koba is the town is because why would town have 2 investigative roles against a mafia doctor instead of a vig and an investigative. It just mechanically makes more sense.

[Asteria]

I'm holding off my vote because there's still a couple other things I want to check first.

Why isn't that a town thought from me?

[Asteria]

Think of it more PoE.

Koba makes sense in terms of mechanics. But I could see them as scum by play and also their claim was bad. But mechanically I believe they are town with me.

Lemons I've been strong town reading by play nearly all game. But mechanically if only 2 town prs can be real does it really make sense for 2 investigative roles against a doctor. But if I'm wrong on Koba this makes more sense to me to be the other TPR because of my read.

Then we have you. You don't fit in by mechanics like Koba. And I don't townread you by play like Lemons. The most reasonable explanation for why you claimed is you wanted to be a part of the PR PoE instead of the VT PoE which aren't very far off from each other in size. Which makes sense because as scum if you can be a part of either PoE you might as well be in the one that will cause more PR miselims. Either that or there is another scum plan that I'm missing

[Asteria]

So what I'm saying is by the timing of claims you make the most sense for that explanation which is the only good reason I can think of for scum to fake claim when the PRs are the focused PoE. Lemon's could have been doing this too but it makes much more sense from you based on the game state when you claimed. Obviously Koba doesn't fit into this explanation so if they're the one who is fake claiming then something else is up

[Asteria]

I wonder why you were scumposting on the last page before engaging with me.

Where do you think I was scumposting?

i really dont think its clidd bc their timing was just towny and not necessary since we were already limming in PR claims before they claimed

What do you think of them preferring this PoE to the VT PoE though?

[Asteria]

I wonder why you were scumposting on the last page before engaging with me.

Where do you think I was scumposting?

i really dont think its clidd bc their timing was just towny and not necessary since we were already limming in PR claims before they claimed

What do you think of them preferring this PoE to the VT PoE though?

I'm willing to go into VT poe but I understand where clidd is coming from.

Wait what do you mean you're willing to go into the VT PoE?

[Asteria]

I wonder why you were scumposting on the last page before engaging with me.

Where do you think I was scumposting?

i really dont think its clidd bc their timing was just towny and not necessary since we were already limming in PR claims before they claimed

What do you think of them preferring this PoE to the VT PoE though?

I'm willing to go into VT poe but I understand where clidd is coming from.

Wait what do you mean you're willing to go into the VT PoE?

I mean i am willing to vote outside of PR claims today

Oh ok, what I meant when talking to clidd was scum claiming a PR so they can be part of the PR PoE just to be clear

I wonder why you were scumposting on the last page before engaging with me.

Where do you think I was scumposting?

Spoiler:

20 pages in one day

We know for fact that one of the claims is lying now. We have 4 guns claimed and 4 guns total. I don't think Lemons and Koba are both lying so I'm thinking we are dealing with a traitor. If one of them is lying I would bet Koba. Lemons is in a good position right now as scum and this would be a really risky move. Especially since if we do elim me or koba and find out they are town, Lemons would be in a very bad position.

i'm willing to call this a scumslip. in trying to curry favour by defending players she knows to be town, scum!asteria has revealed that she is mentally counting herself as armed mafioso rather than as her real claim. town!asteria does not believe that koba and i are both telling the truth, because to believe so necessitates the belief that none of the mafia are armed. and we know she didn't just miss the andante flip because she directly quotes anya's "rip andante" message earlier in the same post.

sound reasonable to anyone else?

What?? How does what I said not make sense to you from a town PR perspective. You should be in the exact same boat as me if your claim is true.
Me - gun
Andante - gun
Lemon - gun
Koba - gun

That's 4 guns. Scum has to have at least 1 gun. I don't think both Lemon and Koba are lying so that leads me to believe scum only have 1 gun (

because 1 of them is lying but

not both

.

) Which means doc and traitor or doc and doc.

i'm willing to call this a scumslip. in trying to curry favour by defending players she knows to be town, scum!asteria has revealed that she is mentally counting herself as armed mafioso rather than as her real claim. town!asteria does not believe that koba and i are both telling the truth, because to believe so necessitates the belief that none of the mafia are armed. and we know she didn't just miss the andante flip because she directly quotes anya's "rip andante" message earlier in the same post.

I’m not following this logic at all. Walk me through it like I was a child.

we have 4 gunned PR claims:
- Andante as gunsmith (confirmed)
- Asteria as neapolitan (unconfirmed)
- DK as weak vig (unconfirmed)
- me as role cop (unconfirmed)

knowing that we have 4 guns in play, the possibilities are:

- Andante + 2 gunned mafia + {Asteria, Dk, or me}
- Andante + 1 gunned mafioso + {Asteria and Dk, Asteria and me, or Dk and me)

Asteria is approaching this from the perspective that 2 people are telling the truth, which puts us in the second scenario. she asserts that these 2 people are myself and Dk, which would make

asteria herself the liar.

what sense does it make for a real Neapolitan to make this mistake? did she forget what was in her role PM? did she forget that andante died? not likely. what's more plausible to me is that, because

in her own mind

she is already accounted for as the gunned mafioso, she forgot to account for herself again in the PR pool.

it is impossible for nea!asteria to believe that Dk and I are both telling the truth, because that theory refutes her own claim.

the only way for this to have happened is by a massive blunder of logic, and the explanation for that blunfer that makes the most sense to me is that asteria forgot to account for herself in the PR claims.

The part I bolded is

exactly

what I said. I never said you and Koba are telling the truth. I said I don't think

both

of you are lying. Meaning I think 1 is telling the truth and the other is lying. Meaning I don't think both of you are scum and we're dealing with 2 gunned mafia.

So if Asteria is telling the truth, given your Role Cop Claim, DkKoba has to be lying. But that’s it no? Who else has claimed anything?

This is what I'm thinking. Lemon's claim doesn't make sense coming from mafia wanting a believable fakeclaim when they know I exist

But I don’t see how Asteria is implying that they’re Scum with the assumption that DkKoba and you Insidious aren’t both lying. If only one of them is lying, doesn’t scenario 2 still allow for Asteria to be Town? That’s what I’m not getting.

Like Asteria didn’t assert Insidious and Koba are both telling the truth, but I think Asteria was saying that they think only one of them is not. That’s different than what your interpretation is.

I’m trying to be careful with this because Scum slips are rare, and this one doesn’t feel like one at all to me.

Yes! And this is exactly what I said. Idk why Lemon's chose to interpret it as I think both are telling the truth when I said I don't think both are lying. Makes no sense

Frankly we need to sort out between {Asteria, Koba}. No other execution makes any sense, and VFP pushing Anya is absurd. If we get it right, we mostly likely clear 3 other players and put the Scum on the ropes. Take it that Insidious is telling the truth. I already had Pooky as very likely Town so I’ll buy the clear, which now 2 different players have confirmed in different ways (remember, Andante also cleared them of a gun and now we know they’re not a Doctor. They would have to be strictly Traitor and I’m not seeing that). So, Pooky would be cleared, and the two other gun claims would be cleared. That leaves a really narrow pathway to victory for Scum.

Unless Lemon's and Andres are scum together, I'm back to reading Andres as town

she asserts that these 2 people are myself and Dk, which would make asteria herself the liar.

Like yeah I think this assumption is incorrect. You should have asked to clarify before I think. I don’t take Asteria’s statement to mean that she thinks you and Koba are both telling the truth. The statement absolutely leaves the option open that 1 of you is lying, just not the both of you.

you're totally right. disregard everything I've said about this being a scumslip, i simply misread "i don't think both koba and lemons are lying" as "i don't think koba and lemons are lying"

I'll accept this but I'm still leaving everything I already typed up just to show my pov

Oh wait wait. No. The Neapolitan gets a Vanilla Townie result right?

I have a result telling me VFP is a vanilla townie so VFP is conftown from my pov

Wait so how do we ever not execute between Asteria and Koba here? What other execution even remotely makes sense? If Koba flips Scum, that’s good, we have a circle of trust of sorts and the Scum is outside. Unless there’s no Traitor and one of the PRs is Scum.

We vote Koba. Scum will nk me anyway because they don't want me clearing another townie or finding someone who isn't vanilla town. If I don't die overnight then I'll accept being eliminated because that makes 0 sense

Why does it make it false when the claim can get 2 town PRs mis lynched and just win the game?
It's not genius it's pretty basic scum play.

Well I doubt that Insidious is lying about their actual Role then. So the Scum have a N2 Role Cop, a Mafia Doctor, and a Role Blocker?

If this is the case then we still have a lie within the gun claims. I know I have a gun, Andante is confirmed to have a gun, and Lemon's was going after Koba right? So that doesn't make sense either.

Normal Guidelines
A Traitor is considered Normal on mafiascum.net, as long as it:

gives a "guilty" result to Cops, an "innocent" result to Gunsmiths, and a "Traitor" result to Role Cops

Does this support our claims? A cop (me), gunsmith (Andante), and role cop (Lemons)? Then Koba is the odd one out?

There's something I want to check about Lemons and this is my reminder to do that after I catch up (also want to check clidd slot after the detective claim)

I called out lemon and now today theyre claiming role cop not on me which is BS

This is what's making me so torn on Koba or Lemons. Lemons felt so town to me the whole game but now their target just makes no sense

I feel like lemon claimed here so that they could resist my legacy read on them but also in a way that doesn't lock them in a cc with either PR

I could see this an I could see Andres' thing about Lemon's looking for the traitor

You’ve also used the “Scum slip” attack twice now. Once on Andante, and now on Asteria.

Look, it’s time to call bullshit. I will sheep VFP and execute amongst {Anya, Insidious}.

I'm ok with this.

asteria/dkkoba + t3? + bear??

Here’s the thing. This is a fascinating solve by Anya. Don’t you think? It heavily implies that a Traitor is present in the game. By this stage, you have a claim by Andante that there’s 4 guns, Koba is a claimed Weak Vig as per 2032, Andante is a claimed Gunsmith (but not in the solve, as per 1182, 1212), and Asteria is a claimed Neapolitan (2134). With a Mafia Doc, you know that either 2 of Asteria/Koba/Andante is Scum, or 1 is with a Traitor present. But they don’t seem to entertain the alternative at all if I’m not wrong. So if you TR Andante say, wouldn’t you speak about the entire situation, and how it could mean that both Asteria and Koba are Scum together?

i didn't see the 4 guns thing from andante

asteria and dkkoba were going for each other at the time and i felt like 1 of them was wolf

You didn't see the 4 guns claim? That was long before this post with a lot of discussion around it?

Also: I'm a town one-shot detective who got a negative result on Pooky during the N1 (he didn't try to kill anyone that night).

This may be useful for the setup spec ^

If this is serious we have 5 town guns claimed??

this implies lemon/asteria are scum

Well for me it implies Koba/lemon are scum

At this point is might be worth Anya, Osuka, and Andre claiming.
Since everyone is already outed and there's most likely 2+ scum in the PRs.

Yep, we're basically massclaimed now anyway

I don't think it's possible for us to be playing in a 0 gun scum world because that would be massive trolling by Datisi and the NRG.

I'd like to mass claim to figure out what the setup is and where the best elim is today.

I am a Vanilla Townie.

I'm gonna guess we have 2 lying. 3 is a lot

@Everyone voting me: of all the claims so far besides maybe Koba, I'm the one scum want to NK. Just leave me for scum to get

Asteria [5]: DkKoba, Salsabil Faria, Andresvmb, InsidiousLemons, Anya

Asteria is the least likely to be Scum. Three of the Gun claims are on this wagon.

Green Crayons [5]: PookyTheMagicalBear, VFP, Robert M Hunter, Andante, T3

And this wagon looks pretty wholesome.

I want these in my iso to remind me to look over VCs. I think the gun claims are solvable if we incorporate interactions and VCs and everything else we know

I don't think it's possible for us to be playing in a 0 gun scum world because that would be massive trolling by Datisi and the NRG.

I'd like to mass claim to figure out what the setup is and where the best elim is today.

I am a Vanilla Townie.

clidd gun claim came last which is probably town dunno why he'd wanna put himself in that poe if he's wolf

also salsa was clearly town when she reacted to osuka

i'm vt

The PoE of guns is almost as bad for scum as the PoE of VTs at this point
I don't think holding on to salsa's reaction that early in the same is really viable anymore

Is a solve with Lemons + Asteria + Osuka possible?

Just gonna point out I'm semi-pushing Lemons and if we didn't have this mess of gun claims I would be pushing Osuka like I did last day

i'm willing to call this a scumslip. in trying to curry favour by defending players she knows to be town, scum!asteria has revealed that she is mentally counting herself as armed mafioso rather than as her real claim. town!asteria does not believe that koba and i are both telling the truth, because to believe so necessitates the belief that none of the mafia are armed. and we know she didn't just miss the andante flip because she directly quotes anya's "rip andante" message earlier in the same post.

I’m not following this logic at all. Walk me through it like I was a child.

we have 4 gunned PR claims:
- Andante as gunsmith (confirmed)
- Asteria as neapolitan (unconfirmed)
- DK as weak vig (unconfirmed)
- me as role cop (unconfirmed)

knowing that we have 4 guns in play, the possibilities are:

- Andante + 2 gunned mafia + {Asteria, Dk, or me}
- Andante + 1 gunned mafioso + {Asteria and Dk, Asteria and me, or Dk and me)

Asteria is approaching this from the perspective that 2 people are telling the truth, which puts us in the second scenario. she asserts that these 2 people are myself and Dk, which would make

asteria herself the liar.

what sense does it make for a real Neapolitan to make this mistake? did she forget what was in her role PM? did she forget that andante died? not likely. what's more plausible to me is that, because

in her own mind

she is already accounted for as the gunned mafioso, she forgot to account for herself again in the PR pool.

it is impossible for nea!asteria to believe that Dk and I are both telling the truth, because that theory refutes her own claim.

the only way for this to have happened is by a massive blunder of logic, and the explanation for that blunfer that makes the most sense to me is that asteria forgot to account for herself in the PR claims.

oh yeah i didnt notice that. good catch

it's almost as if ive been saying that slot is scum. that sounds familiar to me but i can't figure out why for the life of me

Interesting how Osuka is jumping on a "scumslip" that has already been proven to be based on incorrect logic...

how does lemons know i am a vanilla townie !?!?

Lemons got vanilla on you right? And Andante got no gun.

i agree with a lot of the points being made on dk and by play they are a very solid scumread for me. what i'm getting stuck on is that, as multiple people have pointed out, if there's a "real" vig they would have almost certainly cc'd or managed to kill someone by now. and if there is no other vig, then we have to ask ourselves: does a setup with a red herring mafia doctor really make it into the normal queue? my strong suspicion is no, but i'm unfamiliar with the approval process so i'd like to hear from people who are

I'm also unfamiliar but this makes sense. Why a mafia doctor if there's nothing to protect themselves from

Anyway...

So at this point all 4 PRs should give 2 favoured scum in the PR claims.

I agree but I need some time to think on this.

I do know outside the PR pool I'm leaning Osuka/Anya though

wait nevermind that second point i keep forgetting the traitor knows who the mafia are i promise i'm not trying to dumbtell

p-edit ah fuck okay lemme reread

Someone tell me if this dumbtell is viable because I'm about to start considering it when reading Lemon's

That said I also think Koba's role makes the most sense with a mafia doctor and I don't see why the TPR pair would be a non-con nea and a night 2 role-cop. Also my mixed feelings on both those slots makes me think clidd is probably just scum and claiming in hope of more TPR elims.

Well seeing that I'm the last to answer that top question I'm gonna go ahead and say Clidd+Lemons are the scum. I feel best about clidd though. The reason I'm saying Koba is the town is because why would town have 2 investigative roles against a mafia doctor instead of a vig and an investigative. It just mechanically makes more sense.

Here ^

The formatting of your posts reflected me as visually polluted and not exactly an approach that would help you understand the game, which is something that I classify as one of the criteria for scumposting. Not saying you were trying to be busy, but the intention seemed more to demonstrate that you were doing something (considering the number of multiple interactions) than to establish an informative catch up that would help you absorb the information and clear up your doubts (which would be a more objective/organized approach).

There are also some suggestive points of tonality in the way you commented on some topics, but the most ''rational'' reason, without entering the emotional field (which is difficult to debate), is still the impression above.

Oh that's just how I catch up. I'm sure I caught up like that before in this game if you skim my iso. I just write down whatever comes to mind as I read up

I'll try to check those things I wanted to tonight or tomorrow morning and conclude who I think is scum within the PR claims

[Asteria]

After a third reread, I'm comfortable with this vote:

VOTE: Asteria

Why are you actively ignoring that I'm the logical NK tonight?

VOTE: Asteria

I guess I have to say the same to you too

[Asteria]

So the thing I wanted to check for Lemons and Clidd slot is if when I claimed and we started looking into the guns if they were acting like they knew they had a town gun too. This is hard to tell though because if they do honestly have a town gun they wouldn't want to announce it but I'd expect to still see a thought process that reflects they know the gun count is wrong but they don't want to directly say it.

Lemons:
-was torn on if my claim was fake or not (it does make sense to be suspicious if you also have a cop related gun
-went for Koba (still makes sense from a town gun perspective who knows there's a high chance one of us is lying
-setup spec and saying there's probably a lot of PRs
-Everything above can potentially be ignored because Lemons apparently didn't realize my role has a gun
-Says he believes Koba's claim is true because no vig cc and setup spec
-needed reminding of my role (I feel like a fellow gun holder would have a better idea of the claims?)
-still thinks my claim is false (this again makes sense from someone also holding a town gun but scum also want to get rid of me too. Not sure if they'd rather just wait to NK me though?)
-I still think the worry of me being elimed leading to conftown VFP being NKed is genuine
-I think the strong focus on me is more likely to come from someone who knows we likely have too many town guns than from scum wanting me eliminated rather than NKed and I think the flip-flopping on my slot supports this

Salsa/clidd:
-[post=2245]2245[/post[ has their first reaction to my claim where they told lemon's having a gun =/= mafia. Maybe I'm wrong here but I don't think that comes from someone knowing that there are 4 guns and 4 town gun claims (including herself)
-Went back and forth on me as she followed Andante's reaction test thing on me
-Thought one of me and Koba was fake because she thought I was a killing role
-Made a statement about finding it hard to believe scum only have 1 gun and town have 3. This could be a way to cast doubt if she knows she also has a gun but I think it's a little misleading if she knows that
-Told Andante she outed a "TRP (?)" Doesn't look like a sentence that comes from someone informed of having the 4th town gun as claimed
-She really honestly seems to be solving from a stance of there being 3 TPR claims and she's doubtful that scum only have 1

this game is wild

why would you think a neapo has a gun

For some weird, indescribable, illogical, alien reasons (I don't know why, brain is completely shut for rl reasons), I was thinking gun indicates killer roles only

Quoting this because I don't think Salsa faked this. If Salsa genuinely thinks this then she isn't the detective unless she didn't realize she had a gun. But to think that gun = killing when we have the gunsmith andante claimed doesn't make any sense from someone with a PR

i parsed this as
weak vig shoots unprotected maf --> maf dies, vig lives
weak vig shoots protected maf --> maf lives, vig dies

reading the wiki page on "weak" tells me i am indeed being stupid

UNVOTE:

I find it hard to believe that

DkKoba

don't understand their own role or they didn't ask about it before to the mod if they genuinely didn't understand it.

To continue, I don't think Salsa says this right after misunderstanding her own role if she is a detective
-Says that if VFP is town the possibility of there being scum between me and Koba makes more sense (it shouldn't just now be making more sense if salsa is a town gunholder too)


That's all I needed. VOTE: clidd

[Asteria]

Wait what? Tell me who already said that salsa's posts make no sense knowing she's a detective

[Asteria]

I can check clidd too but he only has 27 posts before Lemon's claimed and Salsa's posts were enough to tell me that slot didn't act like they had a town gun

clidd:
-started off scumreading me right away (makes sense to scumread a gun claim if he has a gun)
-Moved to T3 which is outside of the PR claim pool (makes less sense as a gun claim)
-said if there's scum between me and Koba it's probably Koba.
-Calls me towny, DK null
-A lot of focus on T3 who again isn't a part of the gun claims

So this still supports my view on the slot anyway

[Asteria]

I'm quite confident clidd is our lying gun claim. Lemons has at least been consistently acting like they knew there were for sure too many gun claims, and not just that there probably are too many but it's still possible scum only have 1 gun. After clidd I'm not very confident between Koba and Lemons. Koba makes sense by mech, Lemons makes sense by play, clidd just doesn't make sense.

[Asteria]

we didn't know lemons or clidd's claims yesterday though so the t4 vote wasn't made with the knowledge we have now and you other reasons don't seem like reasons to think he's a wolf

unless i'm completely lost?

If clidd is being honest then at that point he knew out of the claims there was andante, koba, me, and himself (unclaimed) for town guns and that's impossible. So he was voting T3 with the knowledge that 1 scum has to be in the other 3 PR claims

[Asteria]

you understand there's 2 liars in the gun claims right?

Is that to me or anya?

[Asteria]

Salsa/clidd:
-2245 has their first reaction to my claim where they told lemon's having a gun =/= mafia. Maybe I'm wrong here but I don't think that comes from someone knowing that there are 4 guns and 4 town gun claims (including herself)
-2248 Went back and forth on me as she followed Andante's reaction test thing on me
-2248 Thought one of me and Koba was fake because she thought I was a killing role
-2248 Made a statement about finding it hard to believe scum only have 1 gun and town have 3. This could be a way to cast doubt if she knows she also has a gun but I think it's a little misleading if she knows that
-2255 Told Andante she outed a "TRP (?)" Doesn't look like a sentence that comes from someone informed of having the 4th town gun as claimed
-[general statement] She really honestly seems to be solving from a stance of there being 3 TPR claims and she's doubtful that scum only have 1

this game is wild

why would you think a neapo has a gun

For some weird, indescribable, illogical, alien reasons (I don't know why, brain is completely shut for rl reasons), I was thinking gun indicates killer roles only

Quoting this because I don't think Salsa faked this. If Salsa genuinely thinks this then she isn't the detective unless she didn't realize she had a gun. But to think that gun = killing when we have the gunsmith andante claimed doesn't make any sense from someone with a PR

i parsed this as
weak vig shoots unprotected maf --> maf dies, vig lives
weak vig shoots protected maf --> maf lives, vig dies

reading the wiki page on "weak" tells me i am indeed being stupid

UNVOTE:

I find it hard to believe that

DkKoba

don't understand their own role or they didn't ask about it before to the mod if they genuinely didn't understand it.

To continue, I don't think Salsa says this right after misunderstanding her own role if she is a detective
-2608 Says that if VFP is town the possibility of there being scum between me and Koba makes more sense (it shouldn't just now be making more sense if salsa is a town gunholder too)

[Asteria]

Do you think my case on salsa/clidd makes sense? It really doesn't look like Salsa has a town gun

[Asteria]

when salsa said andante outed a "TPR" who was she talking about?

Me. Andante never actually checked me but said she did and got a gun result on me

[Asteria]

Yes but assuming you're VT it's fair for you to ignore the gun thing. I was more focused on it because it applied directly to me. And Salsa should have been the same way even if to a lesser extent but she wasn't at all

[Asteria]

No, it's me knowing there are two liars in the PR claims and trying to solve. We don't have to go for another in the PR pool after today if we arent confident

[Asteria]

After a third reread, I'm comfortable with this vote:

VOTE: Asteria

Why are you actively ignoring that I'm the logical NK tonight?

VOTE: Asteria

I guess I have to say the same to you too

i would love to hear why the fuck you think youre the logical nk tonight

Because I'm non-consec nea. I investigated N1 and my next chance is N3. Scum don't want me giving more info. They could let me live but then whatever info I have D4 will be confirmed when I do die

[Asteria]

I'm most confident that Lemons and Clidd are not a pair. I also don't think asteria and Clidd are ever an acceptable paring here.

asteria - Thinks scum is Dk and Clidd - Voting Clidd

@Lemons / Dk / asteria / Clidd

Can you list in order your views on scum to town within the VTs? (Me, Pooky, Anya, Osuka, Andre) I'm not looking for reasons (at least at this point).

Can you explain again why clidd and lemons can't be a pair?

You have a mistake in my pairing. I think DK is town because of mech. I think the scum are clidd and lemons. That's why I'm interested in the above. If I'm wrong then it's clidd and DK

Osuka, Anya, Andre, Pooky, VFP

@Lemons / Dk / asteria / Clidd
Can you list in order your views on scum to town within the VTs? (Me, Pooky, Anya, Osuka, Andre) I'm not looking for reasons (at least at this point).

I'm leaning town on you (Vfp), Pooky and Anya.

Not sure on DK (can't find good enough reasons to townread or scumread, but can be scum by PoE). They're null.

Leaning scum on Osuka and Andres (one scum between them).

Did you just put Koba in the VT pool?

i think if everyone is agreed on lemons then we elim lemons first?

I think one of Koba/Asteria has to be town just from a balance perspective.

I like Clidd as town more than Lemons.

I don't fully agree on lemons. I would much much prefer clidd

[Asteria]

Of course they can be, I just don't see both scum calling out late like that as scum.
I also find it hard to pair Clidd and Lemons directly to Anya, and part on my thinking is Lemons get antsy on Anya getting votes.
Clidd seems willing enough on Lemons and Lemons is voting Clidd as well giving reason why over asteria. I don't think scum want to lim their own today and want to actively get a wrong target here. Dk would be an easy push to gain traction on if both Lemons and Clidd were scum.
If this was ever the case though, then Clidd is a traitor and maybe saw his buddy getting questioned and panicked. This would explain why Lemons is okay voting with Clidd but originally Clidd was aiming for asteria.

I think I have both yours and Lemons slightly wrong so I will amend accordingly once I have the rest of the information.

That's a good point. Not impossible but it would be an odd strategy to both claim late like that. Also that's a fair point on how clidd is treating lemons. Maybe it is clidd and Koba which at least makes me feel better about townreading lemons all game. But the doc just makes no sense if Koba isn't actually a town vig. That said I do know Lemons is wrong on 2 of his scumreads for sure based on his readslist. I'm too tired to read the reasoning rn but I'll do that tomorrow

[Asteria]

im thinking

lemons dies today-> townflip = clidd-scum, one scum btw koba/asteria

lemons dies today-> scumflip = clidd-town, one scum btw koba/asteria

lemons dies today-> scum rolecop flip, Koba-scum, Asteria/Clidd town

I think max 1 scum btw lemons/clidd because it wouldn't make sense for 2 scum to come out with gun counterclaims?

but max 1 town btw lemons/clidd because the townside is too weak with those being the 2 town.

I think that last points are reasonable. I personally would still much prefer clidd though

clidd townflip = lemons/koba scum from my pov. I don't think this happens.
clidd scumflip = lemons town, koba scum, I think you guys already said I'm likely not with clidd so you should be in a similar boat as me

@asteria if you don't die tonight, who are you checking and why?

I don't want to give an exact answer in case by some miracle I do survive to give my results, but I'm checking within the VT claims. I may go for someone I think is town in hopes to get a VT result clearing them. Or I'll go for a VT claim who I think is scum, because if I get back not VT then we know they're lying and scum.

[Asteria]

I still strongly believe my case on clidd/salsa is enough to say clidd is lying about being a town gun PR. The way they were acting before he claimed did not match up to what was claimed.

[Asteria]

Idk, same motivation scum!lemons had to jump into the already large pool, whatever that is. Maybe clidd didn't think anyone would check how salsa was acting around the other claims.

[Asteria]

I'm still pretty set on clidd being the elimination. I'm still unsure between lemons and Koba who clidd's partner would be but I'm starting to lean more Koba so if we don't elim clidd I'd be ok with this

[Asteria]

I still don't understand why people want to vote me when I'll be NKed anyway. Aim somewhere else so you don't for sure get 2 town flips. I outlined how salsa was not acting in any way like she was more informed of the town gun count than everyone else when the claims happened earlier. I'm almost positive it's clidd.

[Asteria]

Well at least I was right about Osuka

I'm still really surprised Clidd wasn't actually scum, sorry for pushing you so hard!

Curious why we were informed of a mafia doc if there wasn't actually a killing role? Was it just to confuse?

. The execution of Asteria was ridiculous.

I tried so hard

Thank you Datisi for modding!