mini #585 - A Tempest Has Formed (Over), Thanks Patrick!!

[Skruffs]

Hello.

[Skruffs]

Okay.
Hi Elias.
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Coheed's post 29, "Nobody has left any tells yet" is preemptive and fatalistic. Coheed, if you want to see tells you have to help make them. That is what day one is for. You say something provocative and then other players use that to start disccusion amongst themselves. Your next(ish) post: We haven't had any real discussion is also similar - you have to instigate your own discussion, you can't be warning people away from voting by saying there's no reason for it, without helping to provide reasoning.
I am curious CC: In two earlier posts you say that there is not much to go on. Then in two following posts you express your newbieness. I am not trying to attack you, but I am curious about a few things:
A) Is english your native language? (It's cool either way) - your articulation suggests maybe you are french or spanish or something.
B) Since this is your first game, what experience do you have with the game? What kind of things are you looking for, or expecting, early in the game?

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MEllowed man seems to be playing his cards really close to his chest; it reminds me of hte way cubsfan plays survivor, which was very scheming and transparent. His OMGUS vote, and then revote, followed by the tight, concise answer, is very conservative as well. Are you sweating, Mellowman?
secondly: I read CC's statement to read him as saying, "Sorry if I am saying things that are commonly seen as scum tells", not "sorry if I am revealing myself to be scum by making newb mistakes". Your post could be construed as one scum attempting to guide another, or it could be a townie looking for pieces of trigger.

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populartajo: voting evilgorillaz for liking silly bandwagons - but doesn't explain why ti is silly. (Yes, it is random voting, I know that. However, the only way to move it to real voting is to discuss the random voting.) It also was not much of a bandwagon with two votes. Still, a better reason than some others have given.

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Gaspode:
Why would you infer the name of IS in this place? *hiss*
Other than that, the analysis on page 40 seems par on my own, observational without a lot of commital, so that's good. Bringing info up to be discussed.
Hmm, you later explain the tells in a different way than I was seeing it, re: mith's scumtells list. I just think he was saying "nothing to talk about" as an excuse toa void discussing something else, something that newbie scums are most worried about.
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evilgorillaz - countering gaspode, which is also pro-town (regardless of wether you are right or not).

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alvin95 - your post 42 really seems to cover all the bases. You agree that EG is scummy for something, and then defend the reason he had for doing it; it sounds like you are trying to convince yourself and/or explain something to children as you explain why the wagons can be good. Wagoning is effectively a tool of the brutish against the quiet.
-56 - this seems like less of a safety post. My guess is you are town.
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Marmalade: interesting that you only picked up on MM's voting style after he voted CC. Or rather, only then mentioned it.
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iamausername:
Do you have something against FOSes? FOSes are basically weak lines of thought that a person is not willing to avctually vote for: it's basically saying, "If all else fails later in the game, come back here and push this." I get the impression from your post 53 that you would rather not have them. Other than that, it's interesting that you are willing to stick your neck out for other people so early in the game, like in your defense of my predecesser earlier in the game.
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populartajo-
Is it "popular-ta-hoe"? as in like a chevy tahoe? Or is it "Tah-joe"? or is the J supposed to be a C?
Anyways: your post 54 is interesting, it seems earnest but you don't extend yourself enough. What about alven's post seemed off to you? Why does it matter if EG has acted that way in other games? MM might know why you fossed him - but if he is scum, you just directly guided him, and if he's not, you still aren't helping the rest of us understand why. You should explain the fos on him (And you may have later, I Am typing as I read) What about Iamausername's post gives you a good vibe?
The whole point of giving your opinion is that you are supposed to actually give an opinion.

blah blah blah
I got to the bottom of page three, but I'm exhausted, and that's a start.
I will continue a fresh start in the morning, BUT

I am thinking this will be a fun game, it looks like there is a diverse crowd of dedicated players, and Elias, so it should be fun. I like games where players actually discuss with each other, converse, and so on. Hopefully I will be able to contribute my small part before I am inevitably nightkilled.

[Skruffs]

Allright. I finished reading, and I think I want to look at cream for right now.

(in response to alvin saying there aren't many reasons for voting him)
If you count the reasons, there are 4. Two are connected by elias, but I still count them as seperate reasons. At this stage of the game, that's a fair few. I think that bad logic does contribute to scumminess, because it could be intentionally trying to confuse the town. I agree that joining in with the conversation is a good thing for the town, but you've got to hold yourself responsible for what you say nonetheless! When I'm scum, I still join conversation as much as possible. I find the game more fun that way.

This is interesting to me. I don't know if this is a tell or not, so I will broadcast this out and see what others think. The argument that bad logic just confuses the town - I'm just trying to put my finger on it.

I guess what I got out of this was the idea that, scum know who town are and are trying to get other townies to lynch town. Townies, though, do not know who anyone else is. So in effect, scum have the advantage, especially day one, of knowing which wagons are actually dangerous on scum and which ones are helpful to them. Townies have no way of knowing wether the case they have on someone is good or bad until the person is lynched and their role revealed. So on day one, especially, when one player is criticizing another for not having 'good logic' or a good case, I tend to look at the criticizer - because it means they might have ingame knowledge.

So, continuing that line, I Would suggest that if cream is scum, then this post might be clearing whoever Alvin is underfire for using bad logic on.

There is nothing wrong with making mistakes, Especially on day one, because even mistakes can lead to progress in the game. So yeah.

*outshining Elias*

[Skruffs]

I guess my point (in regards to Cream147) is that, especially on day one when people are still feeling things out, only scum really have the benefit of knowing which logic is flawed (IE would lead to a mislynch) and which logic has a grain of truth to it (would lead to a scum lynch)
Sometimes scum will attack townies for having 'bad logic', and can reasonably back themselves up because they know the townie *is* flawed in his thinking. It makes them look good, it gives them bonus points with the original attackee, and it keeps attention away from their scum group.

That's the point of what I am saying..


I don't think Mith's things are outdated, and I am raising my eyebrow at the two players (Elias and CC) who have been so quick to argue against them without explaining why.

Especially Coheed's, "Though they can be helpful for finding Doc, Cop, or scum there isn't much else there."

I'm really trying to figure out A) why Coheed put cop and doc in front of scum in the order of what they can help you find, and B) what else coheed is *trying* to find. Roleblocker tells? Vig tells? Mason tells? Saying something is useful for catching scum and then discarding it is... bad.

Anyways yes, the basis of Mith's scum tells can be taken into account by experienced scum, but, it's not a bad start. With 10 pages worth of information, and with most players claiming to be from within the last 9 months or so, I wouldn't write the list off. Knowledge is power; and if scum *is* already taking those tells into account (like I or Gaspode or Elias may have done) then town needs to know what scum might be trying to avoid doing.

[Skruffs]

Explain what you mean, that could be in relation to anything.

[Skruffs]

HA! Stole your top of page!
NYA NYA

[Skruffs]

But what other ones are *you* interested in finding, right now?

[Skruffs]

That is exactly the point.
IF I look like Patrick, people will listen to me more.

[Skruffs]

Elias:
The last game me and you played in (other than perhaps Pirates vs Ninjas) was Nightless, and we were both town, and I helped a town wind at lylo.

[Skruffs]

It's enough of a slip to me, especially day one, to warrant an

IGMEOY: CC

[Skruffs]

Very defensive, publicly-intentional-distancing post there, cream. First time as scum?

[Skruffs]

If someone is scummy to you, you should have enough faith in yourself and your ability to clear yourself to actually try to get that person lynched.

If I thought Alvins was scum and thought there was a connection between him and me, I would still get him lynched and risk getting thought of as his scumbuddy then to just warn him off and make the fear that we'd be connected become completely apparent - like you did.

[Skruffs]

Again:
If you think someone is scummy why would you give them an out by saying you will wait until they are 'back'? If I was scum and someone quasi defended me by saying "well let's let him get away with it until he gets back" - do you think I would make any effort to 'come back'? Considering I would have a free ride until then?

Fos: iamausername

and possibly mellowman.

[Skruffs]

Now, if I say I am going to be gone for ten days you won't be outraged, right?

I just think you have the whole concept of cases versus voting wrong. If you think someone is scum - you vote them and you don't care what their response is, you spend your time asking everyone else. Why would you want to talk to scum about wether they are scum or not? If you were face to face with Satan himself (theoretically and just assume he's real for this purpose) would you give him the chance to convince you he wasn't actually evil?

I don't personally drop cases on anyone unless A) a third party has invested themself in defending that player, B) someone else does something that makes me think of THEM as the most scummy player, or C) I have doubts about my belief in that player.

So yes, you can be as outraged as you want, I just think that saying "I'll just drop it for now" is a cop out, because wether he's here or not you can bring to light what you think is scummy about them and let other people discuss it.

[Skruffs]

This is why people hate lurkers.

[Skruffs]

I do not get the impression that MM is scum.

Vote : Cream147

[Skruffs]

Are you asking me if I am a cop?
IT's a toss up between Cream and Coheed at the moment,a nd since Coheed is AFK for the next ten days, I can't very well vote him, can I? I've expressed my suspicions of Cream in earlier posts, so I'm ready to start ruffling him up a bit more.

[Skruffs]

I Think the actions of the players on his wagon are more scummy than his.

I've looked at the two games he has died in: Pick Your Poison and Mini 562. In both games he was town, in PYP he was wrung up day one. He reminds me of Disciple Slayer and some other newer players; they talk in a way that draws attention to thema nd do not know how to adequately defend thsemves. In short, day one lynch bait.

In short, I am not sure what you are asking me, Matt_S. It's such a bizarre statement; and it reminds me of "Guilty until Proven Innocent" - which isn't going to happen day one, is it? Which is odd because were also looking for a reason to suspect Cream147.

So let me ask you so that I can see that you actually mean that statement: Is there anything Cream147 has done that makes you think he's not scum?

[Skruffs]

So what about Mellowed Man has your attentions on him? I may have missed it, but basically I see you as a non-voter saying that you would vote him (but that your vote is moving around a bit), then a series of asking people why they are focusing on one person over another. But I don't see you saying where exactly what he has done or said that seems scummy to

you

. And I might be missing something, but it sounds like you are trying to corral other people into voting him - without really putting yourself in the limelite in doing so. To me, scum are much more likely to be in your shoes than in MEllowed Mans, in day ones.

[Skruffs]

And you still haven't really explained why you think Mellowed Man is town, except by looking at games where he's been lynched as town. It seems you never mentioned evilgorrilaz' reluctance to provide meta, which seems odd since your defense of Mellowed Man relies heavily on meta. I could speculate why this is, but the simpler thing to do is call you scum.

O.o

What does EG have to do with this? If I remember correctly, you told him to sstop rolefishing, said he was scumym, and then dismissed the argument agains thim by saying he attacked for the wrong reasons. What are the right reasons?

How exactly is the right way to say someone is town, day one? I mean what am I supposed to look for to know that someone is town or not? I Am relying on my own experience in games and what I see of MM's postings and I gave my opinion; but you apparently think ti's more suspicious to not immediately agree with everyone that he is scum (which you yourself have been heavy handedly trying to get other players to do) than to do so?

Lastly:
You haven't voted at all today, and have spent most of your time criticizing other people for voting 'for hte wrong reasons' or with 'bad logic'.

However, if 'good logic' was as easy as you seem to expect everyone else to be able to find, then wouldn't you have already been able to use good logic to cast a vote yourself? Instead of just not voting and criticizing other people's votes on people you don't agree iwht?

Fos

Gaspode: Welcome back : What about the game suggests that it is going to crap?

[Skruffs]

Ah. My post starts with a quote, the rest is directed to matt, and ends with a Fos. That's usually how I do things. Then I moved on to you and asked you the question I asked.

[Skruffs]

My heart hasn't changed. I was speaking tongue in cheek. I was ridiculing the defense some players use of their scum buddies by immediately ignoring them if they go away - it sounds like an overt attempt to distract town. Sinec some players think that you must never attack players who are absenttee, and then Coheed, who was under some attack, immediately went AFK, I pointed out that by their definition I can't attack COheed, so I went after Cream.

Comprende?

[Skruffs]

No access till May 10 due to finals.

Well, great. Still think MM is scummiest, but there's no point trying to pressure him when he's not even here, so

Unvote, Vote: Coheed

. He seems to have vanished since his big "oh, the wiki only tells you how to catch scum, that's no help" mistake, maybe he's hoping we'll forget about him. No such luck.

I am not sure what your very last post means: Is Cream147 a straw man? IF so, why? How? what is a strawman?

Please explain yourself better because your question strikes me as the equivalent of "Are you still beating your wife?"

[Skruffs]

I am not sure what your very last post means: Is Cream147 a straw man? IF so, why? How? what is a strawman?

Please explain yourself better because your question strikes me as the equivalent of "Are you still beating your wife?"

Yes, it was a bit of a leading question.

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Straw_Man

"A "Straw man" argument (also called "setting up a straw man") involves mischracterizing your opponent's position in order to present a weaker argument than they have actually given, thereby allowing you to defeat it. It usually involves subtle changes to the given facts of the matter, or minor changes to wording that lead to semantic differences in what is said."

Your straw man argument here is "some players think that you must never attack players who are absenttee". Nobody has said this.

I presented a clear case for why I think Mellowed Man is scum, and was waiting for a response to him. When he indicated that he'd be away, and thus unable to provide this response for a few days, I temporarily turned my attentions to another player I found scummy, because

in this particular case

, I didn't feel that I could progress any further with Mellowed Man without receiving a response.

You, on the other hand, have made virtually no arguments for why you think Coheed is scum, and are now calling him scummy but failing to provide these arguments based on your straw man.

---

So, rephrasing my original question; what do you think is scummy about Coheed? If he wasn't currently absent, would you be voting him over Cream? If so, why did you decide to vote against what you actually believe in order to prove a (fallacious) point?

I'm also *NOT VOTING* Coheed. So why is it scummy that I am not making arguments for why I Think he is scummy? Why is that scummier to you than saying one person is scummy than giving them a free pass and targetting the lesser scummy person? Especially since that person is notw the person you apparently want me to make argumeents about finding scummy?

I *Actually* believe Cream to be scum;

Matt_S:
I'm not defending MellowedMan by his meta, I'm ignoring the wagon because it is a CLASSIC day one 'easy target' wagon. I haven't seen a wagon on a target like MellowMan day one ever hit scum.

WHY would scum draw such vblatant attention to them in the beginning of the game by 'forgetting' why they are voting someone? Why would scum be so vested in randomly trying ot get someone lynched in the beginning of hte game that they would not think that through? You are implying that MEllowedMan is a sloppy player, not scum, and

I agree with you

. HE *Is* playing sloppily. But that, on day one, does not make him likely to be scum.

You are accusing me of being scummy because I disagree with you for 'poor reasons', and the reason I am disagreeing with you is because the case on MEllowed man is built on

poor reasons

.

You were, incidentally, quick to drop the argument that you don't vote for players who aren't there to defend yourself when it fitted you. BBut Hypocrisy sems to be your strong suit: For example...

You make a good point. Cream147 does seem to be focusing his aggressive attacks solely on alvinz95.

Being aggressive to only one person does seem odd.

Followed by:

What do you think about Mellowed Man?

Actually, I'm trying to find out why your aggression was focused on alvinz when Mellowed Man seemed to be just as good of a target for pressure. But go ahead and keep making accusations.

Are you asking me if I am a cop?

I'm asking if there's anything Mellowed Man's done that makes you think he's not scum

Except that Mellowed Man looks scummy to me, so I have reasons to think that he's scum.

Actually, I'm waiting for people like you to defend someone without actually defending them. And you still haven't really explained why you think Mellowed Man is town, except by looking at games where he's been lynched as town. It seems you never mentioned evilgorrilaz' reluctance to provide meta, which seems odd since your defense of Mellowed Man relies heavily on meta. I could speculate why this is, but the simpler thing to do is call you scum.

So focussing solely on one person is scummy? But your constant pulling of attention away from Alvinz and towards MEllowed Man isn't?
And now pulling attention away from Cream147 and towards MEllowed man, that's not the same thing? Trying ot put the burden of proof of innocece on someone, day one, as a reason to lynch them?


Can you please quote the post where you listed your reasons for why you were going to vote MEllowed Man? Because I can't really find where *you* said that you would lay off of MEllowed man until he returned.

[Skruffs]

But you are saying Cream147 is scummy for focussing 'too much' on Alvinz when you were at the SAME time doing the SAME thing on Mellowed Man! The only thing is, Cream147 didn't ask you to PROVE that Alvinz was town, like you are trying to do with Mellowed Man.

There is NO way to PROVE anyone is town without revealing oneself to be a cop, not day one, not before there have been any lynches or nightkills. For you to use it as a reason to incriminate someone is BOGUS. IF you don't agree with me, then

Prove

to me right now that YOU are town. IT is apparently not that hard to do; you want me to prove Mellowed Man is town just because I said that the wagon on him was a traditional day one bogus one, so it really can't be hard fo ryou to clear yourself, someone that you actually know the alignment of.

Also: Thanks for setting up a WIFOM at the end of your last post; mislynch him today and then have an excuse to mislynch me tomorrow. Presumably you won't mind if I Say, "and if me and Mellowed Man both turn up town, lynch Matt_S for intentionally screwing with town".

[Skruffs]

Matt_s : if you thought I was potentially a mason with mm, why would you point it out publicly? Looking back, it seems that perhaps you have been fishing for a skruffs-mm mason claim for some time now.

unvote; vote matt_s

Gaspode, if something is amiss, doesn't it make more sense to investigate it rather than to quarantine it?

[Skruffs]

I'm saying I don't like that you would FOS two players and create the three situations you created to fit rather than actually adding your input. Either Matt_S is scum leading me around in a circle or we are both townies full of pride and ego - and you didni't at all go back on Mith's rules or Logical Fallacys, of which I have accused Matt_S of .

Heres the main one:

Burden of proof

: Demanding to prove that MM is town as an excuse to strong arm people into voting him.

I have never seen a situation where someone has demanded that someone else prove someone else's innocence day one, as town. It is apparently is not that hard, and I asked him to prove himself innocent, and he avoided it completely. Why? Because he knows it is impossiblie.


The secondary one: Role fishing. This is why I Was thinking he was demanding for me to prove MM is innocent - I think he thinks MM breadcrumbed being a mason or a lover, and has been harping on him since then. asking multiple people to give their opinions, asking why they think he is TOWN (As if thinking he is guilty is the 'natural state' for a player to be in in regards to thoughts of him) etc. Then at the end he goes "Oh yeah and I just noticed there might be masons in this game DON'T RESPOND!!!D:" when I think that he's known, all along, that masons and lovers are possibly in this game.

Thirdindary: Accuses me of inside info and says I should be lynched if MM turns up town, which suggests to me that HE has inside info and is trying to get MM lynched anyways and is then planning the NEXT Mislynch in advance, while simultaneously deflecting attention for the same suspicions off of himself.


Look: I do not know what MM's role or alignment is. I just think he's being run up for being sloppy, which rarely to me equates to scummy. Scum are much more likely to be players who sit back and watch other players tear themselves apart before contributing, or try to manipulate and swindle other players into agreeing with them by asking unanswerable questions.

My scumlist:
Matt_S
Cream147
Alvinz95

[Skruffs]

Cream147 - Arean't you the one who bandwagoned onto Alvinz because he was suspicious of Elias_The_thief, a move apparently scummy because Elias was an experienced player and thus scum want to get rid of experienced players?

[Skruffs]

Scruffs, what do you think of Mellowed Man's vote hop and attempt to start a wagon?

Define "Vote hop". I think day one there's no reason not to change your votes, opinions should not be set in stone (unless you are scum trying to defend a buddy) so if he's going to be wishy washy, that's fine by me. The more people he votes, the more tracking we have of what he thinks and who he's suspicious of. Does it mean he's town? Not at all. But I'm not going to attack someone for contributing to the game, regardless of how they do it. Plus, you would have to know MM's playstyle. Which I do.


That aside, I am having an extremely difficult time conjugating and extraplotaing the sentences on this page. "HE" seems to be referring autonomously to both me, alvinz, MM, and MAtt_S. I can't tell who the subject is of most of the sentences and thus have no way of interpreting who is attacking who of what. Please refer to the person you are attacking at least in the same paragraph.

[Skruffs]

So Evilgorrilaz, give reasons rather than just following the crowd and trying to blend in.

Exactly. Look at how you jumped on me for lack of reasoning, deeming it scummy. Now look at what alvinz has to say.

There isn't much of a difference between poor reasoning and lack of reasoning. It isn't scummy either.

Even if it's not inherently scummy, what you did was basically make an excuse to avoid voting for someone, by saying that someone else was scummy as well. I think that deserves some explanation.

You are insinuating that everyone should assume the person you want us to vote for is guilty until proven innocence. Townies have one weapon: Mass consensus. There is no reason to be coerced into voting who another player wants to, and they should never be obligated to find reasons NOT to vote someone that they don't want to. The downside is that if the person that they don't want to vote turns up to be scum, that person THEN might be probed and prodded as to WHY they refused to, so it IS better to explain why at first. But only scum's scummates or a cop would KNOW that the person they are refusing to vote is scum in the first place, so demanding reasons for NOT voting someone BEFORE they turn up as town or scum indicates that THAT person (Matt_S in this case) is the person in questions scumbuddy.


HA.

[Skruffs]

I listed my top 3 last page or so, but I will amend it and add populartajo to the list for trying to figure out who the most popular target is before attacking anyone. You've gone to the trouble to ask everyone who they are suspicious of twice without offering any opinions of your own. Shit or get off the pot.


I'l explain the post from earlier the next time I am sufficiently inebriated.

[Skruffs]

Popular, the last time you put any effort into scum hunting in the game was in APRIL. Has ANYTHING triggured any sort of changes in your opinions since then?

[Skruffs]

Why do you need to survive to day two to feel involved in the game?

[Skruffs]

Unvote, Vote: Coheed

Either Coheed or popular is the vote for the day, neither of these playeres are really going out there and stating their observations. Let's just do this.

[Skruffs]

Unvote, Vote: Coheed

Either Coheed or popular is the vote for the day, neither of these playeres are really going out there and stating their observations. Let's just do this.

Wow. Almost 20 pages and you can only make a case about people not stating their observations. Im dissapointed, Skruffs.
What about Elias?

Are you serious?
Not only are you asking other people for their opinions, you are also, apparently, not reading the thread.

I've made my opinions clear about everyone that I *have* an opinion on. You and Coheed are being the LEAST helpful, directly OR indirectly. You have no right ot be disappointed because my cases have all been made, you were just too busy trolling for opinions to actually read, respond, and contribute in regards to them.

[Skruffs]

Unvote, Vote: Populartajo

[Skruffs]

But POpulartajo, you could have figured out who people's suspects were by READING THe thread, and you could have been even more helpful by saying who YOUR Suspects were. You did neither, and your form of 'stimulating conversation', only stimulateds conversations between OTHER players, without yourself being included.

You were not including yourself in the people who you wanted to 'gain conversation' with, which is a 'fly beneath the radar' tactic.

I *am* A bored townie. I was pretty sure that my top three were cream, matt, and alvins, but alvins is the only one that more than one player is interested in,a dn the day is going on long enough that players are startign to lose interest. Me sayign tha tPop. or CC had to be lynched today and now was to restart the game, to get rid of applayer that is negatively contributing (IE trying to get the town to carry them) and get hte game on.

That neither of htem were on a scum list that I made earlier? WHat do you really want ot say about that, that I Was suspicious of those three and so I don't have the right ot change my opinion of other players? Wouldn't that be great for players like PopTajo who are trying to find out exactly who everyone is suspicious of before he starts saying anything about anyone?

[Skruffs]

Iamausername: You slipped a vote on Coheed earlier, but I'm not sure as to why? and now youa re saying that someone else is either town OR coheed's buddy, which infers you are still sure coheed is scum.

Coheed:

"To the people who think I'm scum, I'm not. Mellowed must be pro-town because we arnt scum buddies, or atleast I know I'm not scum."

If someone must be town BECAUSE he isn't scum buddies with you, doesn't that make YOU scum?

[Skruffs]

Coheed's doing a very bad job of scumhunting. I also don't really see where the populartajo case came from. Would a no lynch be a good idea in this situation?

Don't you mean he's "not" scumhunting? How would you know if he's doing a bad job at it or not?

[Skruffs]

I am still interested in this game, but hte running in circles is starting to tire everyone out. We should lynch before we all break down even more, as I said recently. It's a day one lynch. If we're right, we have scum and we have a LOT of info to use tomorrow. IF we are wrong, then we have a LOT of info to use tomorrow anyways, PLUS that information as well.We need a new day, so we have a fresh start, to reinvigorate the game.

[Skruffs]

Do you like following the tides, Matt_S? BEtter to float than to paddle, right? Less work?

[Skruffs]

alvinz, maybe I missed something, bu were you seriously just fishing for hot to fake claim cop? If you are a cop, it's in your role, and you'll find out tonight how it works. If you aren't, then why does it matter to you?

[Skruffs]

I'm not sure where "Hot" came from, replace it with "Someone" or "The cop"

[Skruffs]

LYYYNCH HAAAAHR

[Skruffs]

ARe you sure that's not a "Let me try and push this back onto an easy wagon from earlier without actually contributing" post right there?

[Skruffs]

ARe you sure that's not a "Let me try and push this back onto an easy wagon from earlier without actually contributing" post right there?

This time directed to Alvinz95.

[Skruffs]

ARe you sure that's not a "Let me try and push this back onto an easy wagon from earlier without actually contributing" post right there?

This time directed to Mellowed Man. I have no idea where that came from.

If you agreed with this line of thought, why did you say nothing about it the first time it was used?

[Skruffs]

If you agreed with this line of thought, why did you say nothing about it the first time it was used?

Merely borrowing your quote

In all honesty I thought that by using your quote I was agreeing with your previous uses of the quote. But apparently I lack communication skills.

Vote: Mellowed Man

His last post basically sealed it for me. Also this day is dragging on. Quite honestly I share coheed's sentiment about wanting the game to go into night now. 24 pages for a day 1 is TOO LONG.

THat's my point.
If you agreed with the previous incarnation of the quote, why did you not say anything against the people with which I used it?

Cream147: I have more of a read on MM than I do other players, for better or worse. People are voting him for changing his votes, day one, in a game with no n0. There's no reason not to vote hop unless you have info, which neither power roles or townies have. Only scum do. PEople criticizing others for loose tells like vote hopping are therefore, more likely to be scum, in my opinion. If MM actually starts acting scummy, I'll be on him like fish on wheat. People ignoring one person's actions and focusing solely on another when the second has already been proven (Through sheer amount of attention being focused on him by multiple aprties) to be an 'easy target', are scummy. See earlier in this post for an example.

[Skruffs]

If you agreed with the previous incarnation of the quote, why did you not say anything against the people with which I used it?

Because everything that needed to be said was already said by you.

Yet you ignored both of the players I directed it towards and instead joined them in voting Mellowed Man.

Unvote, Vote: Evilgorrilaz

[Skruffs]

We get it. You hate the Skruffs wagon.

Who was this directed towards? Me? Yes, I hate the Skruffs wagon. I always hate the Skruffs wagon.



I made an observation about two people who rather quickly hopped onto MM. The point is not that I am trying ot say MM is town, or scum, but that the actions of these two players was, I thought, oppurtunistic.

Evilgorillaz ignored my quote in regards to them, but then tried to flip it by using it as an excuse for his voting of the same person as the other two. He said that he agreed with my previous usage of the quote in post 595, and then later said that everything that needed to be said "already had", in 601. However, these two posts are conflicting. Either he thought the usage of those words was good, in which case the two players I used it on WERE voting onto an easy wagon, in which case he shouldn't have followed along behind them... or he thought hte usage was wrong, in which case he shouldn't have agreed with me, and especially he shouldn't have used it against MM. Either way, he's either being hypocritical or he's avoiding scum hunting. Or both. Not sure.

[Skruffs]

One that I like. This one has a combination of good reasoning and good potential for info gathering if MM is forced to respond and claim. This squabbling is detracting from the fact that MM has done some scummy stuff and needs to be held accountable.

The impetus of both you and evilgorillaz seems to be to get MM to claim, and that's about all. Why?

[Skruffs]

At this point I agree that MM needs to put some sort of effort into this game. Meta-defending him only goes so far, if he's not going to actually play I have no reason to back him.

[Skruffs]

One that I like. This one has a combination of good reasoning and good potential for info gathering if MM is forced to respond and claim. This squabbling is detracting from the fact that MM has done some scummy stuff and needs to be held accountable.

The impetus of both you and evilgorillaz seems to be to get MM to claim, and that's about all. Why?

It is more efficient to focus on one major suspicion at a time, in my experience, and MM is my current top suspect. I'm not COMPLETELY focused on the claim though. I've also mentioned how I would like a response in general. I can't really speak for EG, or why you're making such a big deal of my attack, I feel its pretty well reasoned. Why have you been trying to detract from the wagon over the last couple pages, and why are you unhappy that people want a claim?

I'm neutral about people wanting a claim.

I'm more interested in why getting a claim (and not, say,s cum hunting) is your prime objective at this time.

[Skruffs]

populartajo:
stop trying to orchestrate a quicklynch and answer this:
Where did you see that before?

[Skruffs]

Skruffs once again stops the progress and detracts from MM wagon. Noted. Also, this is by no means a quicklynch. Unless you consider two months quick. Also consider

MM, if you think theres no case on you go read my posts.

HAs the wagon on him really been going on for TWO MONTHS, Elias?

And you know what I mean by quicklynch, even though the correct term is "Quickhammer"...

Someone put him at -1 and reguested a hammer 17 minutes later.

PopularTajo: You are saying I need to question other people on his wagon?
I think it's amusing that you hop right on behind them , then tell me to look at them, while you ask a THIRD person to accompany you on the lynch wagon. *YOU* don't seem to care why the other people are on that wagon - and you want me to. That's just...
scummy.

Especially at the same time, I am getting flack for not being anti-MM from the onset. I reserve the right to be hesitant about a lynch. Simply saying "IT'S BEEN TWO MONTHS" means nothing, especially since.


MM: I'm not defending you. I'm attacking scummy behaviors. You should start being productive, like, by claiming, or actually making a case against someone. I don't care how busy you are, RL.

[Skruffs]

Alvinz, do you have any reason to think the mafia have a roleblocker?

MM: You are the "Day 1 Scum lynch", the player that everyone finds easiest to lynch day one because they make no sense. I don't think vote hopping on day one is a scum tell, so I don't agree with the case on you. It has nothing to do with you being scum or town; the players voting you are exhibiting behavior that

I

think is scummier than yours.

I don't remember any cop claims, when did that happen? Coheed's a cop? Okay.

I'm willing to vote Alvinz just for somehow thinking the mafia would have a roleblocker.

[Skruffs]

Not noticeably. Can you point to where you started feeling that way?
Welcome to the game.

[Skruffs]

The SK (And it is most likely an SK, serial killers traditionally STAB to death, where as vigs have shootings or bludgeonings) is a threat to the mafia, so the mafia will be trying to focus attention on the SK.

Fos: Cream

Fos: populartajo

for saying coheed should only report unless he was RB'd. Coheed should decide, himself, if he wants to reveal any results he may have gotten, and if he WAS roleblocked, he DEFINITELY should say as such. If he has an innocent, he may not want to report until the day has progressed some.

Fos: cream

again for the equivalent of "Good job doctor" except at Alvinz.


More later! I wasn't even aware day had ended until this morning.

[Skruffs]

Can we please just lynch someone, I havent been posting much, I acknowlodge that. But now with MM claiming cop I'm dead tonight, so It doesnt really matter to me what happens.

What did you mean by this?

And why did you investigate a claimed doctor? A claimed doctor is scum-kill bait.. you make your own decisions but if you h ad investigated anyone else you would have had a result on someone that nobody would have information on.

I would think that Patrick would have sent a result to Coheed if coheed had a result. He would not have NOT sent one just because Coheed's target had died.

You say you based your investigation because you didn't think there would be two power roles, BUT...

I'm not lying, my claim is true, thats why I wanted Night and why I was getting so p*ssed off, because now I'm screwed if we don't have doc.

And Just a note, I'll investigate someone tonight, and tell what I find out, but I don't know my sanity, so, my proposition is that a normal townie tell me that they are normal townie, and I will investigate them and see what happens. This is all depending on us having a doc.

lastly: Why did you decide to target MM, someone that you never seemed to be suspicious of, and not Elias, someone that you had your vote, on and off, all of yesterday, as well as today?

Note: I am not insinuating you are not a cop, Coheed, I am merely bringing up some points that strike me about your behaviors that I'd like to see handled today rather than yesterday.

[Skruffs]

I need to look at... well.. pretty much everyone else to figure out the rest of this.

However, this is turning out to be a fun game.

[Skruffs]

Anyway, it's interesting how popular is making scum connections based on someone who he thought was town. You can define interesting however you wish, but I'll define it as questionable.

I don't find it that interesting. I assume you're suggesting that he and alvinz are a scumpair and he's deflecting attention away.

Popular believed alvinz was town yesterday, yet is making cases based on alvinz' actions yesterday. Of course, the fact that you don't find that interesting reminds me of how you interacted with alvinz yesterday. Given alvinz' alignment, that is much more interesting.

Are you suggesting that Popular doesn't have the right to make cases about alvinz' possible partners, now that he knows that alvinz was, in fact, scum? Or are you saying that he was defending alvinz today so the cases he makes are probably flawed or intentionally setup because he's alvinz partner? Or what?

I know you can't possibly be saying that popular thought alvinz was town yesterday so he can't look at alvinz in a new light with new information, so I'll assume it's one of hte other two.

Point: Nobody except scum knew anyone else's alignment except their own yesterday. I think we need to look back and see what happened when Alvinz was under a lot of pressure and how it got transferred to MellowedMan, who was, AS I WAS SAYING all day yesterday, the "Easy Lynch". I say that because I know MM's track record, and I pulled up references and all that crap to explain my point. Players who were ignoring or deflecting attention away from alvinz and onto MM need to be investigated.

Coheed: I more meant "Why were you asking for a vanilla townie to claim to test your sanity", telling the scum who you intend to investigate means nothing, and you should be trying to investigate scum that haven't claimed yet. That's how I play a cop.

[Skruffs]

Oooh. Evilgorillaz, think you goofed there and just cleared someone of being on the mafia team.

[Skruffs]

YOU CANT MAKE A LYNCH OFF OF A CONNECTION CASE ALONE

I pretty much disagree with this entirely. However, I don't think the alvinz/Elias connection is nearly as strong as the alvinz/Skruffs connection, and I think Skruffs also looks scummier independently.

I'm slightly confused by the fact that my last post appears to have been ignored entirely by everyone.

I cant believe I missed that post. Im rereading and post my comments about it later. The fact that Skruffs has missed it makes me wonder.

I just want to point out that you are suggesting or insinuating that if two people do the same thing, and one of them is you, the other person is suspicious.

I completely missed Iamausername's attack against me because it was on a previous page; thank you for bringing it to my attention though, I will read and respond to it.

[Skruffs]

What a mess.
Responding ASAP! Sorry for the delay. WOrk and sick has been knocking me out of commission in a lot of games.

[Skruffs]

Then why so interested in what others think, why not continue to search for evidence or try to defend the case I've destroyed?

Umm the town is a unit and we should work together to find scum?

Progress is only made through friction. Offering your own suggestions might stimulate someone else into putting hte pieces togehter better. But you should still offer your own ideas too - to show you are on the same side.

[Skruffs]

Skruffs is scum. Check this out:

This is interesting to me. I don't know if this is a tell or not, so I will broadcast this out and see what others think. The argument that bad logic just confuses the town - I'm just trying to put my finger on it.

I guess what I got out of this was the idea that, scum know who town are and are trying to get other townies to lynch town. Townies, though, do not know who anyone else is. So in effect, scum have the advantage, especially day one, of knowing which wagons are actually dangerous on scum and which ones are helpful to them. Townies have no way of knowing wether the case they have on someone is good or bad until the person is lynched and their role revealed. So on day one, especially, when one player is criticizing another for not having 'good logic' or a good case, I tend to look at the criticizer - because it means they might have ingame knowledge.

Hmm, yeah, that sounds reasonable. Hey, Skruffs seemed awfully certain that Mellowed Man was town yesterday, didn't he?

I was Awfully Certain that mellowed man was being run up for hte same predictable behavior that he has always had, as now_a_Ranger, Miss Piggy, etc. I stated in thread that I was metaing him and that the case against him was weak - I even attacked Alvinz, and two other players, for being hypocritical in voting him for no reason other than to vote him.

I also said that I Was not sure that he was town. It would hurt your case to quote that, so I will for you:

Alvinz, do you have any reason to think the mafia have a roleblocker?

MM:

You are the "Day 1 Scum lynch", the player that everyone finds easiest to lynch day one because they make no sense. I don't think vote hopping on day one is a scum tell, so I don't agree with the case on you. It has nothing to do with you being scum or town; the players voting you are exhibiting behavior that

I

think is scummier than yours.

I don't remember any cop claims, when did that happen? Coheed's a cop? Okay.

I'm willing to vote Alvinz just for somehow thinking the mafia would have a roleblocker.

Continuing on...

---

Let's also take a look at his interactions with alvinz.

Skruffs says in this post that alvinz is in his top 3 scummiest players (in third place, natch), but I don't think I ever saw Skruffs explain what he found scummy about alvinz. In fact, the only thing he's said regarding alvinz's alignment up to this point comes in his very first (real) post in the game:

alvin95 - your post 42 really seems to cover all the bases. You agree that EG is scummy for something, and then defend the reason he had for doing it; it sounds like you are trying to convince yourself and/or explain something to children as you explain why the wagons can be good. Wagoning is effectively a tool of the brutish against the quiet.
-56 - this seems like less of a safety post. My guess is you are town.

Interesting. Skruffs then decides that "either Coheed or popular is the vote for the day", despite neither of these players appearing in that top three just now.

I called for a lynch of those two, because both of those players were under the most suspicion,a dn the game was lagging. Even the mod was lagging out. Players were complaining and interest in teh game was waning. I pushed for one of those two lynches because getting the day to a night situation would help spur interest in the game. I believe your opinion of players has shifted through the game, as well - does focusing on more than one player at a time indicate scumminess? Day one, I as town do not have a concrete idea of the factions - something that I pointed out yesterday, too. It was my biggest defense of MM's vote hopping that vote hopping day one is not a scum tell. Changing your mind, or agreeing to other people's lynches, is not a scum tell. Only the SCUM know who the scum is for sure on day one - everyone else should be flexible.

Someone calls him out on this, naturally, and he explains:

I was pretty sure that my top three were cream, matt, and alvins, but

alvins is the only one that more than one player is interested in

,a dn the day is going on long enough that players are startign to lose interest. Me sayign tha tPop. or CC had to be lynched today and now was to restart the game, to get rid of applayer that is negatively contributing (IE trying to get the town to carry them) and get hte game on.

So, why was popular/Coheed the vote for the day and not alvinz, again?[/quote]
Well, at the time I said that Coheed and POpTAjo was the vote for the day, Coheed and poptajo were both trying to get other players to find reasons to vote for other people without offering reasons of their own. OF the three people that I was suspicious of (as I explained), only alvinz had ANY other interest from anyone else in the game - but coheed and poptajo were actively sapping the life out of the game, and alvinz wasn't. I directed attention at the two of them to get them reengaged in the game - either by getting them to start contributing (remember how I got angry at you for giving people "off the hook" excuses for idling out of the game constantly? CC was one of those people), or to get one of them lynched so that the remaining players in teh game wouldn't have to carry dead weight on their shoulders. You yourself voted Coheed for that very reason. SUrely you remember why you thought COheed was scummy at that time?

I'm willing to vote Alvinz just for somehow thinking the mafia would have a roleblocker.

And yet no vote. That won't fly.

I pointed out that Alvinz had information about the mafia having a roleblocker, which led to him being lynched. I only had one other post in this game after that post, welcoming someone to the game, and then the day was over. I didn't get a *chance* to vote alvinz. I completely missed the entire, "iamausername is bussing me" conversation, etc, etc. I was busy being lynched in another game and my attention was focussed ont hat one, at that time.

I think that the remaining scum are prrrrrrobably you, and matt_s. MAtt_S more than you, but you are definitely up there.

For example:
When you voted alvinz, you said that it was due to him 'knowing' that the two claims are probably true - which doesn't really make sense. Unless you also 'knew' that the claims were true - and yet you also deliberately suggested that it was unlikely both claims were true, but that a night passing would reveal the truth.

You also said that the points against alvinz had already been said, but the only points I found were from nearly a month earlier, when you asked Alvinz why he thought what he was doing was helpful for town, sinec it wasn't scum hunting. You said that his OMGUS playstyuling meant he was either scum trying to intimidate town or he was just hot headed town, which isn't very persuasive.

I don't see where you stated your reason to vote Alvinz, even though you cite previous reasons FOR that vote. Alvinz called you out as bussing him, and sliding an untraceable vote onto him to make yourself look townish sounds exactly like that. However, I am using alvinz accusation s of you as bussing him as a correlary point, not a prime one. I try not to use caught scum's confessions as meat for attacking people with.

Matt_S is still high on my list for trying to get MM lynched because he couldn't be 'proved' town.

[Skruffs]

Yes, I really will. Sorry it took so long.

[Skruffs]

Okay.
Eloas: your post was very concillatory; you demand a case against you but claim you will be able to reduce any/all cases to nulltells. This bothers me for the most part because it excuses you from having to make cases, if you extend that line of thought a bit furtheer. So, counter your own argument and form a case against someone or get ready for something you can't nulltell away: my vote.


Populartajo basically just claimed mafia, in other news.....

[Skruffs]

Hi Xtoxm are you the SK?

This post indicates that you already know that he is not in the mafia, and/or you are not interested in knowing if he is in the mafia. Trying to find the SK and not mafia is a mafia-tell.

[Skruffs]

That's really all you had to say about the situation? a jab at my credibility?

[Skruffs]

You forgot... immediately after reading?

Cream: You don't need to defend popular - it looks bad on you if he gets lynched as scum. I read through popular's posts and he doesn't once seem to focus on Gaspode.
He says that I am l likely scum, he says that you are likely NOT scum, and he says that he thinks Elias is scum.
If you are referring to this post:

In conclusion and for the people who hate to read.

Possible nonscumpartners (take in count that they could be the SK) :
Evilgorrilaz, Gaspode, Marmalade, Cream, Matt_s.

Possible scumpartners (they could also be the SK) : imausername, Coheed (I forgot he claimed cop so Im wating for his response), Skruffs, Elias the thief.

Possible SK : Gaspode, Cream.

I only based this post in Alvinz actions so if you want to post anything sincere about your relationship with Alvinz that could help us to reduce the possibilities, go ahead.

Im deciding Elias relationship with Alvinz is too strange to be true. Here we go again.

Vote : Elias the thief

I wouldn't take this post to say that PopTajo *thinks* Gaspode is the Sk. Rather, he is saying in this post that you and gaspode are not likely partners of Alvinz, but he is making sure not to clear them by saying they aren't scum at all; he lists them distinctly as possible SKs.

Fos: Cream147

You just gave PopularTajo an "out" by defending him like that, while at the same time suggesting there was no reason to think that Pop.Taj. was doing anything wrong in the first place. Overly defensive while trying to be nonchalant? Scumtell.

[Skruffs]

And nobody should vote Coheed at all, today, regardless of if you think he's telling the truth. No matter what he is, he's not very likely to make it through the night, because both scum groups will probably target him.

[Skruffs]

Scum who bus their buddies make these kind of games so much easier.

Tell us how you know elias is scum, popular. ^.^

[Skruffs]

How is it that Skruffs has not only not been lynched yet, but doesn't even have any votes besides mine? I don't understand.

I don't think the case on Skruffs is as clear cut as you make it out to be. He certainly acted oddly yesterday, his stubborn defense of Mellowed Man was odd, and he did say a few strange things about alvinz. Nevertheless, I'm more inclined to look towards Elias, as I believe the case on him is marginally better.

I Acted oddly?
Yes, that's a huge scum tell. I *never* act oddly.
My defense of MEllowed Man, based on meta, that I had of him, from playing in other games of him, and from the general feel fo the case against him in the first place? Oh yes, that *IS* suspicious.. why did I try to say that the hypocritical votes of sewveral people, including alvinz, I believe, was suspicious when I should have just let someone who I thought was being wrung up for the wrong reasons by people who were acting scummily than him get rung up!

He was almost lynched for VOTE HOPPING at the beginning of DAY ONE.


I need to look back and see why I was suspicious of Alvinz, but my suspicions early on were all abouit how players interacted with each other and how they worded themselves.

[Skruffs]

Sorry for the delay! Work is killing me, will catch up in next post.

[Skruffs]

I post in the games that need posting, when I am strained, and post in all games when I am able.

If you all want to agree that Xtom is the SK that's fine, btu lynchign the SK isn't helping town as much as it is helping scum at this juncture; it allows the mafia to continue on, and eliminates a threat to them.

[Skruffs]

It's a tough choice, but I'd have to say B, or C if he doesn't post next week. I have a feeling that he'll post though. Not posting won't help him.

Do you think he's intentionally not posting?

[Skruffs]

Do you think he's intentionally not posting?

It's possible, but I doubt it. His only post over the weekend was in another game saying that he had limited access.

So why did you say he'll start posting (as if it were a choice) because not posting wasn't helping him? It sounded like you thought he was gambitting.

[Skruffs]

I have a feeling that he'll post though. Not posting won't help him.

This suggests that you think that the posting IS in his control and that you thought he was intentionally not posting, though.

[Skruffs]

Okay. So we hit another lynch and another, apparently, uber fast night, all without me realizing, it, again.
I hate you patrick.

Why am I being voted?

[Skruffs]

Yes, I have been extremely busy and haven't had much chance to post. I didn't even realize that elias had been lynched. I received no notifications that it was night. I only realized that something had happened because the title had been changed to "Day 3."

I am kind of upset because I remember asking patrick to tell me about these kind of things.

[Skruffs]

? I thought lovers' partners died when they died, but maybe I'm just confused.


Going on flavor, I'm guessing iamausername was killed by the SK. Either way, policy

FoS: Skruffs

.

Explain the policy Fos?

Guess I was wrong with Elias. Sorry guys. Ill go wiith my second suspect.

Vote : Skruffs.

Reason : The only one makes sense killing imausername is him.

You were wrong (AGAIN!) about someone but you do not pause to reconsider the way you are deciding who is scum. Why am I your second suspect, and how does Elias turning up town NOT alter the way you are looking at this game? Explain your vote in more detail.

Alabaska

: Me claiming to have not even known the game was in night *is* an honest statement, but not something that should be used to suggest I am town, as anyone could have made it. You seem in your last post to more be looking for who to ring up than to actually be looking at the behavior of players: "someone mentioned porochaz can't remember who." is a perfect example of that. Look at who pushed the elias wagon yesterday, the hardest, and why, before you decide to vote again, or you will receive my vote in exchange, no matter who you vote.

vote: skruffs

I've decided this would be a good time for a pressure vote. L-2 will make him talk. PLEASE no one else vote yet.

I'm also gonna place down an

FoS: populartajo

in conjunction with my suspicions from yesterday.

L-2 would also be the table for a quick lynch if there are two mafia that are not already voting for a townsperson. Why would you tell nobody else to vote when you yourself are putting me in the situation where I could be quicklynched? And why do you want a pressure-vote to make me talk - did I miss something wherein I am the one to be held accountable for the miswagon on Elias yesterday?

Really Alabaska?

If IRC yesterday you had a theory that I was scum with Elias and Alvinz.

But Elias came up town. What suspicions are you talking about?
And yes no one votes for Skruff until he comes here.

...
You're not allowed to talk about an ongoing game, and especially not with players who are actually ALIVE IN THE GAME while you are.
Unless you are in a group fo players who can talk at night; mafia or masons; you just admitted to intentionally breaking hte rules. Are you claiming one of those two groups? If not, you both probably need to be replaced.

[Skruffs]

My bad.

You said "If IRC" and I read it as "IN IRC", meaning #mafia on IRc or something.

did I miss something wherein I am the one to be held accountable for the miswagon on Elias yesterday?

You gotta start accepting responsibility when you're to blame...

My responsibility for Elias's mislynch? I was looking at PopularTajo, Cream, Xtoxm, Matt_S yesteday. I was asking Matt_S if he thought Elias was intentionally not posting, when Elias got hammered. I was trying to find scum, not bandwagoning. You just kinda screwed up, again.

[Skruffs]

Ooookay. Iamausername, a townie, not a power role, wanted to lynch me. He gets NK'd and you immediately say that I must be scum because he was suspicious of me.
You are saying that because he was attacking me, I considered him a threat and so I killed him. This is an incorrect assumption to make. First of all, the lover was stabbed to death. That means you think I am the SK, correct?

Also, there is seven alive. You say that "Two scum for one townie" is a great deal, bu that would mean that by mislynching today, with two nightkills, we'd be at four tomorrow; if the Sk did not shoot mafia and was shot by mafia, the mafia win immediately.

I think the three people who voted me contain two scum between them, at least. I think the SK probably voted earlier on, first or second, and one scum was third. There being absolutely no reason for it other than "Let's ring up Skruffs" pretty much certifies that in my eyes.

[Skruffs]

It doesn't say, but I am assuming that the SK killed hte lover based on the flavor; it would fit if he had been stabbed to death that he may have 'bled out'. Alternatively, there is a vampire.

[Skruffs]

I'd like to add on that Alabaska also thinks I am the SK, as he thinks I killed Iamausername and that seems to be his entire point of suspicion of me...


Xtoxm - Do you think there are two mafiates left?

[Skruffs]

Better question Matt. Why do you think Xtoxm and Skruffs are town?

I seem to remember someone using this as an excuse to continue voting MM day one: The concept of "This person should be assumed to be scum until proven innocent" is a GREAT scum ploy because there is NO WAY To prove someone is innocent. Now that the cop is dead, there is absolutely nothing that can be done to counter this question with any concrete evidence unless someone is a RBer and prevents a kill, a doctor and prevents a kill, or is scum and knows hte town is town and has a better reason for voting them.

So, since I Don't remember who originally used that as their reason to vote MM day one, and remembering how strongly youy pushed the case on Elias yesterday, basedo n ALVINZ postings and not Elias, I decided to look through your posts and see what happened.

Better question Matt. Why do you think Xtoxm and Skruffs are town?

I don't. I think either Xtoxm or Skruffs is the serial killer. I'm leaning towards the former, but the quick way the Skruffs wagon formed doesn't seem right.

Before I do, though: You think I am the SK bcause the wagon against me formed so quickly; doesn't that mean it's more likely I am town and that the SK and the mafia are both voting me? Explain your logic.

Okay on to PopTaj.

DAY ONE:

No need for a prod.
Im very tired atm, can anyone tell me what has happened in the last 2-3 pages?
Im still thinking in lynching either Cream or Mellowed. This might change with the reread Im doing tomorrow but I doubt it.
Also noticing Gaspode and Matt doing some serious attacks against Alvinz, where did this suspicions start?

Focus on crema/MEllowed, you later get flack for having not ever posted concrete reasons for being suspicious of these two; you always refer to suspicions posted 'earlier' but continue to encourage suspicoin without actually posting a case. However, you try to make it look like the two p eople suspicious of Alvinz are cooperating somehow, deflecting attention away from Alvinz.

Later on:

WHy is Gaspode so against Alvinz?

Interesting.

Later ON:

Skruffs you need to get glasses because I did say who my top suspects were. I dont know where did you get the idea of flying beneath the radar.
Read, we're pretty desorganized.

This only benefits scum. We should concentrate in one suspicious case (like Cream's or Mellowed's or [insert your top suspect here] to gain conversation or we're not going anywhere, like the last 2-3 pages.
If you want my opinion, I still think Cream is a healthy lynch. You can read my case about him some posts of mine ago. Mellowed is the next one. Ditto. Gaspode is also worrying me. He has been against Alvinz all the game.

And finally it still bothers me why Skruffs thinks I deserve a vote.
Just wondering Skruffs, can you tell me who Elias top suspects are?

A) You think conversation should be encouraged
B) Continuing to push the Cream/MM wagon without contributing reasons
C) Continuing to deflect attention away from ALvinz


In regards to A):

Skruff realli likes to read every little detail. Any necessity of that excesive scumhunting behavior?

Later on you decide you do not like excessive talking, if it's in relation to you (Or Alvinz)

mmkay.

vote: alvinz96

Elias and tajo, you are also scummy to me. It is late where I am, this is all I have time to post.

Porntime

Bedtime!

Why do alvinz seems more suspicious than Elias and me? Because he's easy to lynch? Are you saying that he's scum based in his relationship with Elias or did he do anything else that catched your mind?
Nothing to comment on Mellowed Man, Coheed or Matt? I expected a big post. Could you do that?
---------------------

For all the wagoners I still think Alvinz isnt scum. OMGUS is dumb not scummy. And he still looks to me like the agressive silly cop in NG556 (I can finally cite it since it recently finished).

Cream's reasons are pretty sucky IMO and does anybody think MM's play is how a doctor should play?

Come on. He continually tried to push attention away from ALvinz for NO REASON, even trying to give ALvinz a fake-cop claim by saying Alvinz's play reminded him of his play AS A COP.


Day Two:

WARNING : LONG POST.

Coheed should report now. Unless he was roleblocked.

Amazingly, he was. Interesting how PopularTajo assumed the mafia had a roleblocker.

Reading the flavor of the kill tells us that its very possible that we have a SK since they usually use knives (stabbing) instead of mafia weapons, right?

Assuming we have a SK why did he try to kill a claimed doctor when obv scum would do that? I can only think in a newbie or first time as SK.

You will note that the next night, the mafia shot the claimed cop and the SK stabbed someone else. Thanks to PopularTajo telling the SK not to go after the claimed power roles, we had two deaths instead of one.

Alvin coming up scum puts us in nice advantage. The following post should tell us many many things. I guess it was Alvinz's first time as scum so he probably made the typical newbie scum mistakes.

a) A heavily suspected person in his list isnt probably his scumpartner. (however take in count that he could be the SK).
b) Neutral players or players with no reads are possible scumpartners.
c) Townie players in his list could probably be scum but there are more possibilities that they are players difficult to make a case against.

Let's see.

You string up niltialicjoan. You check his house, and find it similar to alvinz95's, only without the roleblocking materials.

niltaicjoan, Mafia Goon, lynched Day 2

Town wins!

Alive:
Battousai-Cop
ting =)-Doc
Rosso Carne-Townie
Sir Tornado-Townie

Dead:
alvinz95, replacing Powerful Wizard IRL, Mafia Roleblocker, lynched Day 1
BlckKnght, replacing SilverConqueror, Townie, killed Night 1
niltiacjoan, replacing Glowie, Mafia Goon, lynched Day 2

Battousai investigated BlckKnght night 1
ting =) protected Battousai night 1
niltiacjoan kiled BlckKnght night 1

Sorry to alvinz95 for mistankenly telling him that BlckKnght was his partner.

This is from Mini 549.
This post was quoted in February, long before you said that he had never been scum before.

So your "Initial Assumption" about Alvinz having never been scum and so being an "Easy Read" is completely false, inaccurate, and intentionally misdirecting.


With that in mind, let's see how you distorted the facts to try to use a dead Mafiates post to get Elias lynched (rather than looking at Elias' posts instead), which is actually a fairly common tactic for one scum buddy to do with another's post postlynching.

Urrrghh! I just had a nice long analysis of everyone, then the internet died!

Evilgorrilaz

: The least townly because of his likeness of bandwagons. Dangerous if he successfully starts a bandwagon. Good person to look out for.

Evilgorrilaz isnt his scumpartner. 90%.

Populartajo

: Something fishy about his last post. Seems to be giving limited information, and trying to start a wagon on me, by asking everyone if they thought my comment was weird. (can you explain?) You usually post a lot more in depth. Are you trying to hide something? And is your vote on evilgorrilaz a random vote or a serious vote?

Obv I know I am town and this heavy suspicion also, using the logic above, confirms me 90% as not his scumpartner.

In the event that you get lynched and com up town, you have tied yourself to Evilgorillaz. Similarly, if Evilgorillaz dies and comes up town, you wind up partially clearing yourself.

Gaspode

: Overall seems the most townly, but I'm not entirely convinced yet, since it is at the beginning of the game. By the way, HAPPY BIRTHDAY!

Gaspode is an intesting case. He's 100% not Alvinz scumpartner since he was after him all the fucking game.Howver, I think that if someone is the SK then he could be. I have a bad feeling about him

Because scum do not bus? Is that what you are implying? If you turn out to be scum, Gaspode is much more likely to be a partner, b oth for his (as you say) unreasoned attacks against Alvinz as well as your ignoring those attacks after spending most of the first day trying to get him to stop attacking Alvinz. You are hte one saying Alvinz has never been scum before, and Alvinz was lynched for saying there was a mafia roleblocker, so why wouldn't Gaspode be bussing him as scum? I take it back, maybe you just didn't think enough into this to say that Gaspode was potentially scum.

Marmalade

: So far, hasn't elaborated on comments. (Most are one sentence long). Too little to tell. Leaning town.

Mmmm. Alvinz first case (communicatin in thread) was against me and Marmalade. Then, Alabaska suspected both Elias and Alvinz as scumpartners. So this probably means Marmalade isnt his scumparnter.

How? Explain the logic behind this. Especially since you later tried to push Elias as Alvinz scum partner, giving credence to ALabaska's case against the two of you.

Ashmite

: Can't really tell, hasn't done anything townly, so I'm leaning more on the scum side.

mmmm, this probably tells us Ashmite, Skruffs, isnt his scumpartner but Im not too sure, as Alvinz seems to feel about him.

And yet you had no problem voting me without adjusting any of your suspicions under the pretense that I would be the only person to kill Iamausername, even though that statement is so incredibly full of WIFOM that it can only be made by someone who loses NOTHING by it; you are probably not the SK (who stabbed IAMAUSENARME), which further pushes to me that you are mafia.

iamausername

: Leaning towards town, though his vote on evilgorrilaz is quite ironic. not much left to say...

Mmmm, although Alvinz reads imausername as town he doesnt feel too confident about him. We have a possible scumpartner.

The only person in the game that you said was likely to be town (as compared to just "not alvins partner", wound up getting stabbed the next night. Remember that the SK wants to kill townie people, and remember also that EARLIER IN THAT POST, you told the SK not to target the cop.

This is the interesting section

CoheedCambria09

: I'm thinking newbish, could go either way, not much to analyze.

Another possible scumpartner

Wrong. You also immediately believed Coheed's claim, which suggests you never really thought he might be his partner, because you knew he was town.

Cream147

: hasn't posted anything besides a random vote. Prod?

He has been strongly against Alvinz for some part of D1. This almost confirms him as not his scumpartner but he could be the SK for backtracking after their argument.

This must be YOUR first time as scum; you are attributing newbie-scum as plausible tells as if every single person in the game was scum for the first time, and would never think of distancing from their partners.

Hypatia

: hasn't posted anything besides "I don't random vote" post. Prod?

Elias_te_thief

: No posts. Prod?

These last two posters (Hypatia, Matt and Elias) are at the end for not posting. We should look for more info, lets see.

About Hypatia, Matt_s

No commets until she got replaced. This post is interesting.

I really dislike his stance on Elias_the_thief. He seems to be trying to get an easy wagon on somebody experienced. Besides that, he has been unimpressive. Pretty scummy.

A wagon? Why would I want to start a wagon on Elias? He probably is one of the contributors and starting a wagon on him would be untownly! And every knows that it was crap-logic, but seriously, it wasn't for a wagon, for a lynch, or any means of scum hunting, and I was just trying to contribute. You can go ahead and call that comment "a means off brushing it off", but If i were to try to let it slide, I would just have ignored it.

Here comes a sincere attack. This probably tells me Matt isnt his scumparnter.[/quote]
Interesting. Alvinz went pretty far in seeming sarcasitc in pushing a wagon on Elias. And it's interesting that you use a double standard; scum won't bus each other, but Elias is probably scum because Alvinz bussed him.

So are you teamed with her or are you scum pals? Or do just a liking to very bad back-up

I'm not liking your first post, because you have allied with cream, or scum partners, and you don't give much support in saying that almost everyone is scummy except coheed, cream, iamausername, marmalade. Nice.

Fos: Matt S

About Elias

I agree. I leaning towards Elias because he is definitely experienced, (2128 posts!), and his scum record is considerably high and has been scum 11 times (not like it has anything to do with this game, but hey, it might! ). IC's usually won't lurk like that. I

'm not sure at all, but if there is one scum in those group of lurkers, then I'd say Elias.

Lucky for now, but....

I don't think Elias is scum at all (lynch all lurkers is a bad policy), but, what I meant was that if there was scum in that group then I would say Elias. I'm not starting a wagon at all. I was just agreeing with Gaspode on the lurker opinion and giving a thought on it. Non of that was "evidence" to support a Elias lynch, because he is BY FAR, not on my scum list, because lynching someone just because they are lurking is not townly at all, especially if they have only posted one thing. The scum record was just tagged in for fun hence the parenthesis and "not like it has anything to do with this game, but hey, it might" which shows that it was merely a small joke.

Ding ding ding ding. We have a winner. Now that we know Alvinz is scum I think this post pretty much tells us that Elias could be scum, (notice the unsureness of "hey it might") but he's not on his scum list BY FAR, although his previous post said that he was leaning toward Elias.

Elias wagon? Hmmmmm.... just for fun. xD Vote: Elias the Thief Obviously temporary until I pick up some more scummy stuff.

Make sense now.[/quote]

I will have a detailed post later today explaining exactly why this connection case is retarded and probably lead by scum tajo. tata for now.

Lulz. Retarded FTW again? This should be fun. I want my revenge.

At the expense of the town?

You know Im not scum Elias.
If you were town you wouldnt suspect me. And you dont need a detailed post to say why that connection is retarded and why I am scum, unless you exactly dont know what to say.

THIS SHOULD BE SETTING OFF ALARMS IN EVERYONE'S HEAD.


There is more that I need to say, but this is a good start. I think if other people looked at this, especially knowing that PopularTajo

faked an assumption about Alvinz

as a reason to both clear himself and to fake incriminate Elias. His eager vote on me in the beginning of the day after he took up Alvinz's case against Elias (successfully) just confirms to me that he is definitely mafia.

Unvote, Vote: PopularTajo

[Skruffs]

I'd like to point out that Alabaska J voted me, unvoted me when I expressed anger over missing the night stage because he was wondering if that meant that I couldn't be scum, and then REVOTED ME ANYWAYS even though the only reason, that I can think of, for someone to express anger at missing the night stage (TWICE!!!) is because they have a PRO TOWN NIGHT ACTION That they did not get to use.

He has avoided mentioning it, but seems to believe my anger, so his actions do not make sense.

[Skruffs]

Hmm. I just thought of something.

Skruffs spent a period a L-1, right...If he was non-mafia...Surely maf would have hammered?

Either that or AJ and Pop are both maf...I somehoe doubt that...What do people think of that?

WIFOM. You aren't cleared, so 2 of the 3 players voting me could very easily be mafia. Hell, the third could be the SK too, or any combination of those two. Also, with an SK around, MAfia are going to be wary about quick lynching a player if there is a chance one of htem wi ll be killed for it.

Why are you voting me, again?

[Skruffs]

I've been thinking about this game, and i've come to the conclusion that despite my read, Ala HAS TO BE MAFIA.

I have been cleared of being mafia, and the only suspicion on me is for being SK, which is what AJ is voting me for.

Now, lynching the SK today is a plan that only helps mafia, as it secures victory as long as they don't hit the lover overnight.

AJ has made it clear by going for me that he intends to lynch who he believes to me the SK today. This directly translates to mafia victory.

AJ is therefore mafia.

unvote vote AJ

So you think AJ is mafia, which is half of hte players you think would have to be mafia for me not to be quickhammered. You do NOT Think that Pop is mafia, which is what you REALLY meant to say when you said that you found it unlikely that both Pop and AJ were voting me. Correct?

[Skruffs]

Iamausername's case on me yesterday was that I was mafia.
If I was the SK, I would not target someone who thought I Was mafia, I would target someone who thought someone else was the SK to make the other player look bad. Which is pretty much, I think, what the SK did today. And the person who has been pushing that case the hardest (And from the get go) is most likely the SK and thus the biggest threat to the mafia. Not me.

Alabaska J is basically as blatantly scummy as he can be; My guess is mafia who smells a win and is frothing at the mouth. PopularTajo is also up there.

As I said Skruffs is a decent lycnh. Id be very surprised if he's town. He has spent all the game pointing out little and sometimes silly things about almost all players. This last post is a good try but Im town, Skruffs.

As I mentioned in my pbpa of PoPTajo, Pop had a big fuss day one about tryign to stir up discussion. However, apparently he thinks that players stirring up discussion is a scum tell. Which means that he wants townies to stirr up discussion. I have never, EVER, ever seen a townsperson say that analyzing the game, or "Scum hunting" As olds folk like to call it, was scummy before.
PopularTajo has not even tried to build a case against mel he used the easiness of the votes against me in the begining of the day as his reason, and I do not recall him saying anything else about it. However, if he tries, I will say that he is pointint out "little and silly things" about me, as if analyzing me was stupid or scummy, like he is doing to me.

[Skruffs]

- This leaves Alabaska J, Matt and Skruffs as possible scumpartners. Im 90% sure that we have one scum here maybe both. I also think that we have only two more scum to go and one SK so we have to lynch one of these guys. Lately Ive been thinking about Alabaska and I feel hes playing more poorly than scummy. Also when he entered the game he suspected both Alvinz and Elias. Notice that he can also be the SK. Therefore, we only have to decide between Skruffs and Matt for the mafia lynch.

This method of talking, was exactly how you led the lynch, wrongly, against Elias, yusing false information and basing you ropinon on how scum referred to other players.

-I find Cream, Porochaz, and Xtoxm impossible candidats for scumpartners. See their behaviors D1. (Cream and Evilgorrilaz were likely targets for scum D1 and Gaspode attacked Alvinz all D1) As I said before, I think its valid to assume that Alvinz was newbie scum and therefore we cant expect some extreme tactics of bussing.
Notice that we can have the SK here. As I said earlier Id suspect Xtoxm more of the three since I had a feeling about Gaspode's D1 last post.

This is an attempt to make those of Cream, Poro, and Xtoxm who ARE town more likely to believe you and thus to folow you.

SDaying that because Alabaska was suspicious of Alvina (And elias?) as a reason to think he can't be scum is just stupid. By that logic, because I pointed out that Alvinz claimed that hte mafia had a roleblocker, that means I can't be scum. And yet you are still voting me.

Unfortunately you are not trying to actually scum hunt as much as you are trying to get other people to lynch people for you; it's what you did yesterdya, and it's what you are doing today. Making "False certainties" as in "This person can not be scum" and "we must lynch this" based on a skewed and half-assed look on teh game is incredibly dangerous and fool hardy as town. Your 'certainty' is based on you needing to sound confident so that others will believe you, and not at all on scum hunting.

Im picking Skruffs for this post

Alvinz, do you have any reason to think the mafia have a roleblocker?
I'm willing to vote Alvinz just for somehow thinking the mafia would have a roleblocker.

However he never votes for him and his next post is in D2. Notice also that its the first time he really suspects Alvinz. Nothing to comment about the nurse thing, also. When Id have expected at least a comment from a player so meticulous like him that jumped before against me, Evilgorrilaz and Matt for sillier reasons.

Vote : Skruffs

. Of the two claims, I'd have to give Coheed's more weight since he can get investigations. Now, this is definitely one of those times where a counterclaim isn't appropriate. .

That doesn't really make sense. Coheed as scum would know who's town, etc. and could just say "so and so is innocent" and be right about it, right?

Wow, MM. So you're doubting Cohhed's claim and want us to believe you?
Risky move as scum MM. If there's a real doctor dont counterclaim, this guy is pretty much dead today if he's indeed the doctor.

Unvote.

Im not going to lynch a claimed doctor.
And MM you knew how a doctor should play. If you're town, you just keep fucking the games where I am, seriously.
In other news, I think Gaspode needs to be here and explain what he thinks. I still dont like him. Also, Cream sometimes seem to agree with everyone. I dont know what this means yet.

mmkay.

vote: alvinz96

Elias and tajo, you are also scummy to me. It is late where I am, this is all I have time to post.

Porntime

Bedtime!

Why do alvinz seems more suspicious than Elias and me? Because he's easy to lynch? Are you saying that he's scum based in his relationship with Elias or did he do anything else that catched your mind?
Nothing to comment on Mellowed Man, Coheed or Matt? I expected a big post. Could you do that?
---------------------
For all the wagoners I still think Alvinz isnt scum. OMGUS is dumb not scummy. And he still looks to me like the agressive silly cop in NG556 (I can finally cite it since it recently finished). Cream's reasons are pretty sucky IMO and does anybody think MM's play is how a doctor should play?

First you ignore ALvinz' botch entirely, trying to keep the focus on MM, whowas the days 'decided lynch' by several players. Then when it gets closer to the end, you give a half-hearted, weak, meta-defense of Alvinz.

That's funny.. you didn't vote him, either, just like you htink it was suspicionus of me to do, but unlike me, who as scum would not have benefitted at ALL by pointing out that Alvinz claimed to know mafia had a RBer (it not only would have gotten one of my buddies lynched but eliminated hte chance to claim RBer later), you also tried to prevent Alvinz lynch. I have not had the time to see why Alvinz earlier wagon got derailed, but I Am willing to bet it's because someone, probably y ou, tried to focus attention onto MM as a distraction, which I refused to acknowledge due to my own reasons.

Lynch PopularTajo.
At this point, any votes on me that come in will have to be from scum or from townies who are being intentionally stupid, unless those townies actually look at the game and make their own decision.

You also defended ALvinz when he voted Elias day one. Remember this?

Mmm, why would he (a relative newbie) would suspect Elias (an experieced player) and for a weak reason? Wouldnt newbie scum avoid this kind of players?

This was in response to Cream attacking Alvinsz for voting Elias.
And yet even though Alvinz turned out to be "Newbie Scum" , you again took up his case against elias the next day.

[Skruffs]

Things that happened:

Alvinz puts a "Scum List" as post 65, which is regarded as "Too early" by most, which suggests that he may have been setting it up either to get other players to do the same or to give clues to his partners as to who he thinks was actually scum or not.

MM(town) and Gaspode(Xtoxm)(???) both wind up voting him, Gaspode because of MM's assertations that ALvinz was being a switch between totally defensive or totally agreeing. Iamausername(Town) was also voting him due to getting a bad feeling about him.

Coheed(Cop) also FOSSES him at htis point.

Alvinzn responds by saying nobody has 'evidence' (Scum tell) and tries to deflect attention onto Evilgorillaz(Porochaz), while maintaining that Elias is scum because he's experienced and lurking.

POpularTajo saves the day for Alvins with this bit of Wifom (And it *IS* Wifom)

You know what's funny? That I think alvinz95 now feels more protown than scum. Why? Mmm, why would he (a relative newbie) would suspect Elias (an experieced player) and for a weak reason? Wouldnt newbie scum avoid this kind of players? Also, I liked his theory where he involved some players and myself. Im involved but it seems a valid scumhunting. So, I dont know where this alvinz wagon come from. (And I know that at the beginning I said something like "There's something that feels wrong in his posts", but with all that has been posted after, I sincerely think he feels more agressive townie that silly scum")

And at the end has his own rundown:

I still like my Evilgorrilaz vote, (where is he?)
I dont understand yet the Alvin wagon
I like iamasuername, Marmalade, maybe Gaspode.
I dont like Evilgorrilaz, Mellowed Man.
I think we should prod lurkers.
Neutral about other players.
And we're pretty fcked up becuase Elias is scum. (Thats a joke, guys.)

He is voting alongside Alvinz, doesn't understand why people are voting him, but thinks the people voting him (Iamauser, Gaspode) are doing good. Liking players does not mesh with not liking who they are voting for or thinking their votes are suspicious.

Cream147 then votes Alvinz, putting him tied with Evilgorillaz, HE refutes PopTaj's ridiculous WIFOM defense, and adds a few points of his own.

A;lvinz responds defensively and FOSSes Cream.
Coheed says Alvinz responded well, if overly defensive.


Elias agrees, etc, and then Alvinz uses PopTaj's joke about Elias being scum, combines it with his "I'll hunt you down and kill you" as alonger joke - which might be a beneath the scenes pointing to Elias as a possible SK.

He then says EG is scum for saying "We" when referring to the town and votes him. Then unvotes. This kind of diversionary tactic I like to call "SILLYFACE!" act silly, roll over and show your belly, and people will think you are harmless. Being thought of as harmless would benefit Alvinz at that point.

Populartajo stops defending Alvinz (since he is doing okay again) and tries to vconvinec Gaspode to unvote him and vote EG again: (P{ost 145)

As you can see, I still dont like this guy.
Now, Gaspode, do you still like your vote for Alvin? What do you think of evilgorrilaz?

Both Alvinz and Pop lay low until Alvinz gets uber righteous towards Cream and votes him, for rather interestingly correctl7y analyzing Alvinz's playstyle. (Makes Cream more likely town in my eyes).

Marmalade(Alabaska) analyzes Alvinz, adding small points of discontent. Then he gets angry at cream as well after voting Coheed. Interesting how the bulk of hte post is quasi distancing with Alvinz but the meat of it is directed towards at least one town, and also to the player Alvinz just started launching a campaign against. He also unfosses Alvinz.

EG follows Alvinz to vote Cream.

Pop ignores Alvinz and Cream in post 190 to continue to push against EG.

ME and MAtt_S replace in, and starts with a PBPA. To note:

alvinz95
I really dislike his stance on Elias_the_thief. He seems to be trying to get an easy wagon on somebody experienced. Besides that, he has been unimpressive. Pretty scummy.

- Based on his analysis, he seems to think that Alvinz is scummy. However, look at his reviews of other players:

Cream147
Makes strong attacks on alvinz95 which sound logical.

Could be distancing though. I'm thinking protown.

ashmite84, a.k.a. Skruffs
I seem to be seeing an early fixation on Mellowed Man. I find it slightly odd when people end up being suspicious of those they random vote. Didn't really seem to post much. Mildly scummy, would like to hear replacement.
populartajo
He switches his stance on alvinz95 pretty quickly. Uses a WIFOM defense of alvinz95("newbie scum wouldn't do that", lol). He also links Evilgorillaz, Mellowed Man, and Cream147 pretty simply. Two of the people didn't bandwagon the wagonhappy guy, big whoop. He seems to be shooting in the dark almost. I smell scum.
Gaspode
Opens with a bunch of FOS's. His vote on alvinz95 seems a bit wagony. He FOS's Cream147 when Cream147 and alvinz95 were in the middle of their argument. I'm probably being paranoid, but this smells a bit like scum distancing between the three. It's too early for that though. A bit protown.

On known Town:

CoheedCambria09
Well, he's new. I don't have much experience with newb scum tells, but he seems to have played fairly decently for someone new. Withholding judgment for now.
Elias_the_thief
Doesn't do much. He says he's always like this day 1, though. I want to see some content on Day 2. Withholding judgment.
Mellowed Man
He has made nonrandom votes on CoheedCambria09 and alvinz95. He backs them up with little logic. Pretty scummy.
iamausername
Bandwagons evilgorillaz... for bandwagoning. Oh, irony. Later votes Mellowed Man because he is more wagonhoppy. Other than that, I agree with most of the things he says. Neutral.

The reason I pointed this post out was because several of hte players (moved to the top, just under Alvinz), are linked to Alvinz under hte pretense that ALvinz will show up as scum. There are no players regarded as how theywould be if Alvinz would show up as town, it is only if he is scum. This is a pretty big tell in my opinion, and I will probably be going after Matt_S tomorrow after Popular is lynched today, if I am not dead. If I Get lynched today, hopefully the SK will kill one of these two to give the town a chance at winning.


ALright I got a little bored of reading so kinda skimmed for a while.At the beginning of page 15, MM has been slowly getting a wagon onto him. (Shortly after this happened Alvinz started interacting again). Gaspode and Cream were voting Alvinz, Alvinz, PopularTajo, and me were voting Cream, and MM had Elias, Iamausername, and Matt_S on him.

I was defending MM, and Matt_S

speculated

that me and MM were masons together. In post 360, I asked him what he thought was protown abou outing potential masons. He was also trying to get MM to have more votes on him, and was saying that unless he could be PROVEN innocent that he should be lynched. This makes MAtt_S look worse.


Back to PopularTajo:
Pop repeatedly defends Alvinz, and deflects attention away from him (Usually onto the next biggest wagon), but he never actually interacts with Alvinz himself. He does not questoin alvinz, he does not analyze him more than he needs to to try and convince players that Alvinz is town, etc. For someone who thinks Alvinz was def.town, there was no public 'breadcrumbing' to indicate that Pop had a reason to do so. A mason doesn't have to have that breadcrumb trail, neither does a cop with an innocent investigation, because those players have in game information. But PopularTajo never explained why he thought Alvinz was town, never went through the proceedure of analyzing him to get that opinoin.

This is post 383, the post immediately after Alvinz asked for him to be prodded:

Prod Marmalade

Hasn't posted since MAY 2ND.

Also

Prod Populartajo

This is slight, but notice how he puts attention onto Marmalade for not posting sinec MAy 2nd, but POpulartajo hadn't posted sine April 29th. PopularTajo says that I am suspicious for not helping to l ynch Alvinz (Even though I gave the wagon that lynched him the fuel it needed AND he was actively trying to disband it), but isn't it interesting that PopularTajo disappeared right around the time Alvinz's first wagon phased out and reappeared right when Alvinz needed him again?

No need for a prod.
Im very tired atm, can anyone tell me what has happened in the last 2-3 pages?
Im still thinking in lynching either Cream or Mellowed. This might change with the reread Im doing tomorrow but I doubt it.
Also noticing Gaspode and Matt doing some serious attacks against Alvinz, where did this suspicions start?

Here's another example from my rant in the last paragraph:

Popular, the last time you put any effort into scum hunting in the game was in APRIL. Has ANYTHING triggured any sort of changes in your opinions since then?

Not much. I still think that there's scummy behavior in both Mellowed Man and Cream posts.
Mellowed scummy actions : Suggesting Iamuseraname and alvinz are like a pair, players that I dont find scummy at all - Forgetting about what he said - Voting for a newbie - Confirming his vote agains Matt with no explanation at all.
Mellowed, can you comment about this?
---------------
Cream scummy actions : Sudden change of thought about alvinz. - Extremely agressive against him but I havent seen this behavior against other player. - He thinks Mellowed Man is scummy but hasnt jumped against him like he would have.
----------------
Anyways. Im also interested in Gaspode attacks against Alvinz. I mean all D1, this guy must hate him or must see something we aren't.
Evilgorrilaz should explain more his voting, BTW.

Marmalade hasnt posted in a while so Id like the Mod to prod them.

Liking so far Iamausername and Skruffs. Alvinz seems sincere to me. Neutral about Matt and Coheed.
Also, I think we shouldn't let people lurk, cough, Elias, cough. He doesnt need a prod, hes prob watching right now.

Everyone who is suspicious of Alvinz is scum, but Alvinz is town. HOWEVER! look at what he said about Mellowed: "Suggesting Iamausername and alvinz are like a pair" - that is scummy to him? Why would it be? The only way it could be scummy is if one of Iamausername and Alvinz is scum, but he says he finds BOTH of htem to be town.(which sets alvinz up to be read as town if iamausername gets killed). And he completely ignores MAtt_S's "Mason fishing" debale, instead just saying that Matt reads as "Neutral". Why is it scummy if MM does it? Maybe because MM did it to one of his scum partners, where as MM did it with two townies? There is so much contradiction here that it can't be possible that he's NOT scum.

Finally, after not posting for a month and then only trolling for opinions to soak up, he says that ELIAS needs a prod.

A lot of players began to get disinterested (including the mod) so I said that coheed or pop should be lynched for basically being dead weight.

Either Coheed or popular is the vote for the day, neither of these playeres are really going out there and stating their observations. Let's just do this.

Is that all? Are you saying that not doing anything is a scumtell? Thats not much support for a vote.

Coheed - you voted cream just because he stopped his aggresiveness? Or is it really just to get to Night 1?

Oh look. Sticking up for one player and attacking the other. Contradiction.

Pop's response was to try to look like he was buddying up to Coheed, and saying that I was too lazy to form cases against other player. I said that he was trolling for opinions without offering any of his own, which was scummy ( It is scummy ). Pretending to stimulate conversation between other players is a scumtell if you are not contributing yourself, day one.

PopularTajo got some votes and Matt_S mirrored PopularTajo's comments on Alvinz's wagon,e ven suggesting a nolynch instead. Scummy connection there.

Anyways, that's enough for now, got to page 22 and I see where after CC first claimed that he wanted to get to day 2 that Alvinz started really pestering him to get him to claim.


Sorry for hte huge post, but if you want ANY scum hunting on PopularTajo as reason for a vote and are too lazy to look yourselves to confirm it, you can read it and see the many small little things that are more telling than the large, usually faked or intentional things that Pop is trying to use.

[Skruffs]

Things that happened:

Alvinz puts a "Scum List" as post 65, which is regarded as "Too early" by most, which suggests that he may have been setting it up either to get other players to do the same or to give clues to his partners as to who he thinks was actually scum or not.

MM(town) and Gaspode(Xtoxm)(???) both wind up voting him, Gaspode because of MM's assertions that ALvinz was being a switch between totally defensive or totally agreeing. Iamausername(Town) was also voting him due to getting a bad feeling about him.

Coheed(Cop) also FOSSES him at this point.

Alvinz responds by saying nobody has 'evidence' (Scum tell) and tries to deflect attention onto Evilgorillaz(Porochaz), while maintaining that Elias is scum because he's experienced and lurking.

PopularTajo saves the day for Alvinz with this bit of Wifom (And it *IS* Wifom)

You know what's funny? That I think alvinz95 now feels more pro-town than scum. Why? Mmm, why would he (a relative newbie) would suspect Elias (an experienced player) and for a weak reason? Wouldn't newbie scum avoid this kind of players? Also, I liked his theory where he involved some players and myself. I'm involved but it seems a valid scum-hunting. So, I don't know where this alvinz wagon come from. (And I know that at the beginning I said something like "There's something that feels wrong in his posts", but with all that has been posted after, I sincerely think he feels more aggressive townie that silly scum")

And at the end has his own rundown:

I still like my Evilgorrilaz vote, (where is he?)
I dont understand yet the Alvin wagon
I like iamasuername, Marmalade, maybe Gaspode.
I dont like Evilgorrilaz, Mellowed Man.
I think we should prod lurkers.
Neutral about other players.
And we're pretty fcked up becuase Elias is scum. (Thats a joke, guys.)

He is voting alongside Alvinz, doesn't understand why people are voting him, but thinks the people voting him (Iamauser, Gaspode) are doing good. Liking players does not mesh with not liking who they are voting for or thinking their votes are suspicious.

Cream147 then votes Alvinz, putting him tied with Evilgorillaz, HE refutes PopTaj's ridiculous WIFOM defense, and adds a few points of his own.

Alvinz responds defensively and FOSSes Cream.
Coheed says Alvinz responded well, if overly defensive.


Elias agrees, etc, and then Alvinz uses PopTaj's joke about Elias being scum, combines it with his "I'll hunt you down and kill you" as a longer joke - which might be a beneath the scenes pointing to Elias as a possible SK.

He then says EG is scum for saying "We" when referring to the town and votes him. Then unvotes. This kind of diversionary tactic I like to call "SILLYFACE!" act silly, roll over and show your belly, and people will think you are harmless. Being thought of as harmless would benefit Alvinz at that point.

Populartajo stops defending Alvinz (since he is doing okay again) and tries to convince Gaspode to unvote him and vote EG again: (Post 145)

As you can see, I still don't like this guy.
Now, Gaspode, do you still like your vote for Alvin? What do you think of evilgorrilaz?

Both Alvinz and Pop lay low until Alvinz gets uber-righteous towards Cream and votes him, for rather interestingly correctl7y analyzing Alvinz's play style. (Makes Cream more likely town in my eyes).

Marmalade(Alabaska) analyzes Alvinz, adding small points of discontent. Then he gets angry at cream as well after voting Coheed. Interesting how the bulk of the post is quasi distancing with Alvinz but the meat of it is directed towards at least one town, and also to the player Alvinz just started launching a campaign against. He also unfosses Alvinz.

EG follows Alvinz to vote Cream.

Pop ignores Alvinz and Cream in post 190 to continue to push against EG.

ME and MAtt_S replace in, and starts with a PBPA. To note:

alvinz95
I really dislike his stance on Elias_the_thief. He seems to be trying to get an easy wagon on somebody experienced. Besides that, he has been unimpressive. Pretty scummy.

- Based on his analysis, he seems to think that Alvinz is scummy. However, look at his reviews of other players:

Cream147
Makes strong attacks on alvinz95 which sound logical.

Could be distancing though. I'm thinking protown.

ashmite84, a.k.a. Skruffs
I seem to be seeing an early fixation on Mellowed Man. I find it slightly odd when people end up being suspicious of those they random vote. Didn't really seem to post much. Mildly scummy, would like to hear replacement.
populartajo
He switches his stance on alvinz95 pretty quickly. Uses a WIFOM defense of alvinz95("newbie scum wouldn't do that", lol). He also links Evilgorillaz, Mellowed Man, and Cream147 pretty simply. Two of the people didn't bandwagon the wagonhappy guy, big whoop. He seems to be shooting in the dark almost. I smell scum.
Gaspode
Opens with a bunch of FOS's. His vote on alvinz95 seems a bit wagony. He FOS's Cream147 when Cream147 and alvinz95 were in the middle of their argument. I'm probably being paranoid, but this smells a bit like scum distancing between the three. It's too early for that though. A bit protown.

On known Town:

CoheedCambria09
Well, he's new. I don't have much experience with newb scum tells, but he seems to have played fairly decently for someone new. Withholding judgment for now.
Elias_the_thief
Doesn't do much. He says he's always like this day 1, though. I want to see some content on Day 2. Withholding judgment.
Mellowed Man
He has made nonrandom votes on CoheedCambria09 and alvinz95. He backs them up with little logic. Pretty scummy.
iamausername
Bandwagons evilgorillaz... for band-wagoning. Oh, irony. Later votes Mellowed Man because he is more wagonhoppy. Other than that, I agree with most of the things he says. Neutral.

The reason I pointed this post out was because several of the players (moved to the top, just under Alvinz), are linked to Alvinz under the pretense that A;vinz will show up as scum. There are no players regarded as how they would be if Alvinz would show up as town, it is only if he is scum. This is a pretty big tell in my opinion, and I will probably be going after Matt_S tomorrow after Popular is lynched today, if I am not dead. If I Get lynched today, hopefully the SK will kill one of these two to give the town a chance at winning.


Alright I got a little bored of reading so kinda skimmed for a while.At the beginning of page 15, MM has been slowly getting a wagon onto him. (Shortly after this happened Alvinz started interacting again). Gaspode and Cream were voting Alvinz, Alvinz, PopularTajo, and me were voting Cream, and MM had Elias, Iamausername, and Matt_S on him.

I was defending MM, and Matt_S

speculated

that me and MM were masons together. In post 360, I asked him what he thought was pro-town abou outing potential masons. He was also trying to get MM to have more votes on him, and was saying that unless he could be PROVEN innocent that he should be lynched. This makes Matt_S look worse.


Back to PopularTajo:
Pop repeatedly defends Alvinz, and deflects attention away from him (Usually onto the next biggest wagon), but he never actually interacts with Alvinz himself. He does not question alvinz, he does not analyze him more than he needs to to try and convince players that Alvinz is town, etc. For someone who thinks Alvinz was def.town, there was no public 'breadcrumbing' to indicate that Pop had a reason to do so. A mason doesn't have to have that breadcrumb trail, neither does a cop with an innocent investigation, because those players have in game information. But PopularTajo never explained why he thought Alvinz was town, never went through the procedure of analyzing him to get that opinion.

This is post 383, the post immediately after Alvinz asked for him to be prodded:

Prod Marmalade

Hasn't posted since MAY 2ND.

Also

Prod Populartajo

This is slight, but notice how he puts attention onto Marmalade for not posting since MAy 2nd, but Populartajo hadn't posted sine April 29th. PopularTajo says that I am suspicious for not helping to lynch Alvinz (Even though I gave the wagon that lynched him the fuel it needed AND he was actively trying to disband it), but isn't it interesting that PopularTajo disappeared right around the time Alvinz's first wagon phased out and reappeared right when Alvinz needed him again?

No need for a prod.
Im very tired atm, can anyone tell me what has happened in the last 2-3 pages?
Im still thinking in lynching either Cream or Mellowed. This might change with the reread Im doing tomorrow but I doubt it.
Also noticing Gaspode and Matt doing some serious attacks against Alvinz, where did this suspicions start?

Here's another example from my rant in the last paragraph:

Popular, the last time you put any effort into scum hunting in the game was in APRIL. Has ANYTHING triggured any sort of changes in your opinions since then?

Not much. I still think that there's scummy behavior in both Mellowed Man and Cream posts.
Mellowed scummy actions : Suggesting Iamuseraname and alvinz are like a pair, players that I don't find scummy at all - Forgetting about what he said - Voting for a newbie - Confirming his vote agains Matt with no explanation at all.
Mellowed, can you comment about this?
---------------
Cream scummy actions : Sudden change of thought about alvinz. - Extremely aggressive against him but I haven't seen this behavior against other player. - He thinks Mellowed Man is scummy but hasnt jumped against him like he would have.
----------------
Anyways. Im also interested in Gaspode attacks against Alvinz. I mean all D1, this guy must hate him or must see something we aren't.
Evilgorrilaz should explain more his voting, BTW.

Marmalade hasnt posted in a while so Id like the Mod to prod them.

Liking so far Iamausername and Skruffs. Alvinz seems sincere to me. Neutral about Matt and Coheed.
Also, I think we shouldn't let people lurk, cough, Elias, cough. He doesn't need a prod, hes prob watching right now.

Everyone who is suspicious of Alvinz is scum, but Alvinz is town. HOWEVER! look at what he said about Mellowed: "Suggesting Iamausername and alvinz are like a pair" - that is scummy to him? Why would it be? The only way it could be scummy is if one of Iamausername and Alvinz is scum, but he says he finds BOTH of them to be town.(which sets alvinz up to be read as town if iamausername gets killed). And he completely ignores MAtt_S's "Mason fishing" debacle, instead just saying that Matt reads as "Neutral". Why is it scummy if MM does it? Maybe because MM did it to one of his scum partners, where as MM did it with two townies? There is so much contradiction here that it can't be possible that he's NOT scum.

Finally, after not posting for a month and then only trolling for opinions to soak up, he says that ELIAS needs a prod.

A lot of players began to get disinterested (including the mod) so I said that coheed or pop should be lynched for basically being dead weight.

Either Coheed or popular is the vote for the day, neither of these playeres are really going out there and stating their observations. Let's just do this.

Is that all? Are you saying that not doing anything is a scumtell? Thats not much support for a vote.

Coheed - you voted cream just because he stopped his aggresiveness? Or is it really just to get to Night 1?

Oh look. Sticking up for one player and attacking the other. Contradiction.

Pop's response was to try to look like he was buddying up to Coheed, and saying that I was too lazy to form cases against other player. I said that he was trolling for opinions without offering any of his own, which was scummy ( It is scummy ). Pretending to stimulate conversation between other players is a scumtell if you are not contributing yourself, day one.

PopularTajo got some votes and Matt_S mirrored PopularTajo's comments on Alvinz's wagon, even suggesting a nolynch instead. Scummy connection there.

Anyways, that's enough for now, got to page 22 and I see where after CC first claimed that he wanted to get to day 2 that Alvinz started really pestering him to get him to claim.


Sorry for the huge post, but if you want ANY scum hunting on PopularTajo as reason for a vote and are too lazy to look yourselves to confirm it, you can read it and see the many small little things that are more telling than the large, usually faked or intentional things that Pop is trying to use.

There. Reposted sans-misspellings. I even fixed other players misspellings.

More votes on PopularTajo. He can't really defend himself because he's been caught. He pushed too hard for the Elias wagon yesterday (Even though he ignored him day one, even joking that Elias was scum to help Alvinz's case on him look less suspicious) and wound up outing himself.

7 alive, -1 mafia, -1 lover, -2 NKs (possibly the SK, other mafia, or lover will be hit tonight as there are no more claimed power roles) will result in somewhere between 3-5 alive tomorrow. Killing mafia instead of SK increases the chance of cross kills (compared to 0) though, which makes it more likely that town will win.

[Skruffs]

Actually, I can believe that Popular is the other lover, based on his and Iamausername's complete lack of talking with each other or votes. Also, Iama defended pop against Alvinz's fishing earlier on. The only person that would be more likely to be the other lover is Xtoxm.

Unvote

I will look at Matt_S next.

[Skruffs]

Pop, you really didn't have to claim...Only AJ is pushing you and he's mafia...

Though looking through iam's, I think only you and me are the only ones he didn't attack at some point, and everyone's convinced i'm SK anyway...

I sincerely dont see scum killing me tonight. Im so the easy target.
And not only Alabaska was pushing my lynch. Skruffs and Matt were ready to vote for me.
Have we lost the game already now that scum knows I am the lover?

Absolutely not. I was not 'willing' to vote you, I *was* voting you based on what I saw as definite evidence. OTher players were pushing a "Either skruffs or Pop" lynch for the day, too. You claiming (unless yo uare counter claimed) make syou a non-viable lynch target. That means that if there are two mafias and an SK left, there are still 3 out of 6 good lynches, two of them better than the third and one, the mafia roleblocker, being the ideal lynch for the day.

Since things are so tight, though, I propose we do a massclaim.

[Skruffs]

Presumably, populartajo, you beign a lover means you will probably die after the lynch today (As it says "shortly thereafter" in the role pm), which makes being a lone-lover-suicide situation unremedyable by doctor protection. Regardless, I don't think you would h ave been targettd by scum anyways; you have been set up for a lynch tomorrow just like I have been for today.


BTW: What makes you completely sure that cream is not alvinz' partner?

[Skruffs]

So basically we are choosing between pop and Skruffs.

DX this is difficult. So much room for error.

People not voting Skruffs or pop:

What do you think of them?

Why did you say this?

and who else tried to pus ha Pop/Skruffs only lynching today? Specifically those who voted me early for no reason?

[Skruffs]

Hmmm.
I want everyone to weigh in on the mass claim idea.
Yes I am most suspicious of Matt_S. Alabaska J is just off the charts with how oppurtunistic he has been. HE really reeks of mafia who is trying to get a mislynch on anyone for an automatic win.
PopularTajo, your vote on me is ridiculous. If you are really the lover and town, and you have actually analyzed my quotes, then you should be able to tell that I have already soft claimed. Several other players have. Why don't you unvote me so that the mafia and SK can't quick lynch me to ensure that ONE of the scum groups gets a win?

[Skruffs]

Skruffs is scum. Check this out:

This is interesting to me. I don't know if this is a tell or not, so I will broadcast this out and see what others think. The argument that bad logic just confuses the town - I'm just trying to put my finger on it.

I guess what I got out of this was the idea that, scum know who town are and are trying to get other townies to lynch town. Townies, though, do not know who anyone else is. So in effect, scum have the advantage, especially day one, of knowing which wagons are actually dangerous on scum and which ones are helpful to them. Townies have no way of knowing wether the case they have on someone is good or bad until the person is lynched and their role revealed. So on day one, especially, when one player is criticizing another for not having 'good logic' or a good case, I tend to look at the criticizer - because it means they might have ingame knowledge.

Hmm, yeah, that sounds reasonable. Hey, Skruffs seemed awfully certain that Mellowed Man was town yesterday, didn't he?

I was Awfully Certain that mellowed man was being run up for hte same predictable behavior that he has always had, as now_a_Ranger, Miss Piggy, etc. I stated in thread that I was metaing him and that the case against him was weak - I even attacked Alvinz, and two other players, for being hypocritical in voting him for no reason other than to vote him.

Yet we didn't know he was an alt of NAR at the time, so this is invalid IMO. Also, you state yet another reason to vote alvinz here, but you still didn't vote him.

YOU didn't know. *I* did. I SAID I DID.

I also said that I Was not sure that he was town. It would hurt your case to quote that, so I will for you:

Alvinz, do you have any reason to think the mafia have a roleblocker?

MM:

You are the "Day 1 Scum lynch", the player that everyone finds easiest to lynch day one because they make no sense. I don't think vote hopping on day one is a scum tell, so I don't agree with the case on you. It has nothing to do with you being scum or town; the players voting you are exhibiting behavior that

I

think is scummier than yours.

I don't remember any cop claims, when did that happen? Coheed's a cop? Okay.

I'm willing to vote Alvinz just for somehow thinking the mafia would have a roleblocker.

Again, showing us another reason to vote alvinz, and yet you never voted him. I also am not sure where you state he is not town here…you basically said you didn't want to vote him because the case is a null-tell, but you never say "I'm not sure you are town." Besides saying that doesn't mean anything really. You could still be scum trying to stay off of the "easy day one lynch" to look good.

I pointed out Alvinz' slip, but did not vote him. First of all, I was not quite sure if he meant "Scum have a roleblocker" or "Scum might have a roleblocker because there can only be one of each role" - however, if I was scum, it would make much, MUCH more sense NOT TO BRING his slip up AT ALL. When he finally claimed nurse, he was lynched before I even read the game, I did not even know the day was over and that he had been lynched until day two had started.

If I wanted to "Look Good", why in the FUCK WOULD I try to ASSOCIATE myself with NAR?!?!?!?!!?

This sounds like BS to me. You are saying you think it is better to lurker vote than vote for your top suspicion? I could possibly buy this but you never vote for alvinz, even after Coheed claims cop and your vote on pop is obviously not doing anything.

Interesting that you would try to say this about me, when you have voted me for being the SK And yet are still trying to push a wagon on me rather than trying to find mafia. Right? Am I wrong here?

Then he makes an OMGUS-inspired case on iamausername (who we know now was town). Also, speculating about the time thing is WIFOM, but your vote on pop wasn't doing anything when the alvinz wagon started to gain steam, and you were active then, so why wait to switch until the last moment? Also, you could've voted alvinz in that same post (which would seem like the logical thing to do if you were town), and yet you didn't.

Okay. The biggest beef you have (And pop too) is that I must be the SK because Iamausername posted a case against me, which I did not respond to before the day ended (How did the day end so fast again? Wasn't it because Elias was lynched? Was I on that lynch? No? Who was? Who hammered?)
and then I, as scum, must have killed iamausername to "Silence the opposition".
That is not how I play as scum.
First of lal, it's stupid, as IAmausername was most vehemently against me; so killing him leads right to me. Secondly, if I didn't answer his argument yesterday "INTENTIONALLY", it's still going to be there TODAY, and with his death, would make OTHER playeres want me to answer it. No. It's bad playing.

PopularTajop

: I am town and if you unvote me, I will claim. Alabaka J is one of the scum, and if there was a three man mafia, then I could be quicklynched at any point for a guaranteed scum win. If I get quicklynched, it will be because you are voting me, right now, even though I have claimed that if you unvote me I will claim. You should infer by this that I am worried that if I claim, I will be quicklynched, which should tell you already what I am.[/b]

[Skruffs]

Alabaska j: considering you asked, rather than actually doing it (which would have been the more pro-town-seeming thing to do), why should I not think you are not waiting for the other (presumably 2) scum to finish me off?

Poptaj: have you really considered the credibility of your case? Wether you think I amm Mafia who intentionally outed but then refused to vote my buddy or you think I am an sk who killed the one person who's death makes me look the most suspicious, who incidentally was also acussing me of being mafia, it doesn't make sense.

[Skruffs]

PopularTajo, if you think the mafia is only two players, and I am the othehr one, you should speak up now. I was under the impression you thought there were three mafiates; if you for some reason have cleared every player except me of being mafia in your own head than maybe you should look for a different reason for "Who Alvin's partner is" than what Alvinz said about players on the third page of the game.

I am a

JAILKEEPER

. I already asked the mod; I can not target and save populartajo from comitting suicide, and I can not target myself. The only thing I can really do is try to prevent one kill on me. On the plus side, it means that I will likely draw BOTH kills tonight, which gives town a bonus tomorrow.

Unvote now, please.

If you don't, PopularTajo, you are going to end the game for town, and you will do it entirely on the framework that Alvinz laid down before he got lynched and not on actual scumhunting. I think you want to do better than that.

I also wanted to do a mass claim, so that if someone claimed roleblocker I could counterclaim them, but, Populartajo's stubbornness has kind of forced that idea out.

If someone does counterclaim me, and does so successfully, the serialkiller will be able to kill a mafia tonight, which is still a slight bonus if I get lynched.

Unvote, Vote: Alabaska J

Matt_S askign other people to make a case for him in a potetntial LYLO situation is also scummy as hell. If I die and there is not a kill tonight, it will mean he's a killer (Assuming I'm not lynched).

This is why I pointed out Alvinz "Roleblocker" thing, in the first place. If you think I am a mafia role blocker, PLEASE PLEASE tell me why I Would out both my buddy and myself and then not continue to bus him, VS the alternative, that I as a town roleblocker/doctor combo would point out what I saw as a legitimate scum screw up?

[Skruffs]

Matt, I would like to inform you that this isn't my first game as scum (don't take that to be a slip saying that I am scum, just not for the first time, I just can't express myself any better). In 2 finished games I have been in scum, in neither have I had any arguments with my scumpartner, certainly not in the same way as my argument with Alvinz. I'll give you links if you wan them.

I'll believe that without the links.

Then that leaves me with porochaz and Alabaska J, possibly Skruffs if people can explain how he's not the serial killer. And for some reason, I had thought that populartajo thought Skruffs was the SK, but I don't know how I thought that, so ignore my previous post. Sorry for any confusion I caused to anyone other than myself.

The whole 'I'll believe Skruffs is scum if someone else will convince me" is what I was referring to, in the second paragraph.

[Skruffs]

Briefly back on.
As I have said, I have missed both nights, because patrick couldn't change the title in time, didn't prod, etc. I was not near the computer around the time of either lynches and so I didn't get a night choice in. I *would* have targetted MM n1, but it wouldn't have saved him as he was killed twice, and I *would* have targetted the cop last night, even though it would mean preventing him from getting an investigation in, because it would have kept him alive AND would not have prevented him from getting an investigation - the mafia roleblocker already prevented that.


Xtoxm, what do you mean? 2 lovers =/= a power role, if one dies the other dies too.
That leaves a jailkeeper and a cop.

populartajo, if you were to travel a year into the future, and then read your play in this game, you would be embarassed for yourself. You want to lynch me unless I can get a great case on Matt_S, even though I have claimed a power role.

[Skruffs]

I just arrived to the conclusion that Xtoxm, Poro and Cream cant be mafia.
I am the lover.
So we need to pick between Alabaska, Matt and Skruffs.
Actually a JK is a pretty safe claim for scum since we have certainty that there isnt a doctor in this game. And believe it or not, Alabaska is right. When MM claimed doctor Skruffs kept thinking that he was town.

AGAIN, I THOUGHT MM WAS TOWN BECAUSE I KNEW IT WAS NAR.
NAR FAKE CLAIMS AS TOWN.
AND EVEN IF HE WASN'T FAKE CLAIMING...

Wow, MM. So you're doubting Cohhed's claim and want us to believe you?
Risky move as scum MM. If there's a real doctor dont counterclaim, this guy is pretty much dead today if he's indeed the doctor.

Unvote.

Im not going to lynch a claimed doctor.
And MM you knew how a doctor should play. If you're town, you just keep fucking the games where I am, seriously.
In other news, I think Gaspode needs to be here and explain what he thinks. I still dont like him. Also, Cream sometimes seem to agree with everyone. I dont know what this means yet.

ARE YOU NOW SAYING THAT I SHOULD HAVE COUNTERCLAIMED?

WE NEED TO LYNCH SKRUFFS NOW.

Read this scummy gem, cortesy of my free time.

MM claims doctor. Alvinz believes it and assumes there is a roleblocker. Iamusername votes him and Skruffs jumps softly against him:

Alvinz, do you have any reason to think the mafia have a roleblocker?

Because that was the obvious scum thing to do - to change attention away from a claimed doctor that a lot of p eople didn't believe, and to instead try to out both the godfather AND the xistance of a roleblocker.

THINK.
STOP TRYING TO FORCE A CONNECTION THAT ISN'T THERE.

MM: You are the "Day 1 Scum lynch", the player that everyone finds easiest to lynch day one because they make no sense. I don't think vote hopping on day one is a scum tell, so I don't agree with the case on you. It has nothing to do with you being scum or town; the players voting you are exhibiting behavior that I think is scummier than yours.

I don't remember any cop claims, when did that happen? Coheed's a cop? Okay.

I'm willing to vote Alvinz just for somehow thinking the mafia would have a roleblocker.

We know he never voted for him and then dissapeared until D2.

OBviously I Was hiding from the game because I didn't want mafia to be killed. That's why I focused attention on him in the first place.

....

Matt, what happened with Cream and your theory?

BTW, I think that the scum are Skruffs-Alabaska and Alvinz.
The SK is either Matt or Gaspode.

That leaves... 2 players that you think are town, Cream and one other player. So why are you trying to get Matt to post a case against cream?

[Skruffs]

I sincerely think that Alvinz, Alabaska and Skruffs are scum.

Skruffs my problem with that post is that if you were indeed the JK, a protective role, you would have known NAR was lying, therefore he would have been scum in your eyes.

No I wouldn't.
A) NAR fake claims as town. KNOWN FACT. It's one of hte reasons he has been banned from the site. I had no reason to believe that he was scum *only* because he claimed a role that I also had part of.
B) You yourself told the doc not to counterclaim. Even if I thought he was scum, pushing a claim on him after claiming doctor, would have been suspicious.
C) I do not outguess the mod. The whole "Two power role claims in one day" line of thought was incredibly stupid. The idea that there would not possibly be two protective roles in a mini game is like saying that two power roles would not be outed day one, or that the mafia could not be two people and an sk vs three and an sk, etc.
D) The same reason I did not vote alvinz immediately after he said the mafia had a orleblocker was for the same reason I did not outright say that I Was the doctor when NAR did. On one hand, it sounded liek a confession,a nd I pointed it out, so it would allow other players to weigh in. a quick series of votes on him after that would probably come from his partners, a series of votes on me would also mean the same, but a drawn out conversation would be spurred by town trying to figure out what happened.
Alvinz then fake claimed nurse to end the day quickly, which put an end to that line of thought. So I think looking at how players reacted between when he said that mafia had a roleblocker and when he claimed nurse would be useful.

However, I dont see any of that reasoning in that post. You were still thinking that he could have been town or scum but that there were scummier persons at the moment.

MM: You are the "Day 1 Scum lynch", the player that everyone finds easiest to lynch day one because they make no sense. I don't think vote hopping on day one is a scum tell,

so I don't agree with the case on you

.

It has nothing to do with you being scum or town

;

the players voting you are exhibiting behavior that I think is scummier than yours.

This is only the tip of the iceberg. I sincerely think that of all the connections of the remaining players and Alvinz, yours is extremely scummy. Not voting for him but willing to vote him even though you had jumped against others for less scummy behavior. Its convenient also how you dissapered when all the nurse situation exploded.

You are town so I'm going to be nice, but you are playing to get the person you are suspicious of , lynched, and not playing to find out who scum is.

After this, Alabaska J claimed SK.
Matt_S's response suggests he is not the SK.

Xtoxm first suggests that Alabaska J's claim would fit a claim from mafia, then says he is not mafia because he did not hammer him. This is completely contradictory - if Alabaska J is more likely mafia, then you not hammering him really only means you are less likely to be the SKK; and makes you MORE likely to be mafia if he turns out to be mafia.

He then goes back and says that if AJ is telling the truth, me and Poro have to be mafia: this is an added complication, as it means that not only is AJ both mafia and not mafia, but also that me and porochaz are scum that do not bus each other.

Basically Xtoxm started spewing WIFOM immediately after Alabaska J's claim.

Vote: Xtoxm

I just arrived to the conclusion that Xtoxm, Poro and Cream cant be mafia.
I am the lover.
So we need to pick between Alabaska, Matt and Skruffs.
Actually a JK is a pretty safe claim for scum since we have certainty that there isnt a doctor in this game. And believe it or not, Alabaska is right. When MM claimed doctor Skruffs kept thinking that he was town.

No offense, but:
Mafia can kill and roleblock.
There is a serial killer.
And there are two townies who die if the other one dies.

And you are saying that there was ONE power role for the town in the ENTIRE game, that of a cop.
No doctors, no town roleblockers.
If nothing else, the lack of any doctor protections indicates that my claim *IS* more valid, as I indicated frustration about missing both nights at the very beginning of the next day.

Or: You did not arrive to a conclusion. You jumped to an assumption based on your own set of 'ideal mafia metas' that you feel can be held accountable towards everyone. WHich is

foolish

. You are not the God of Intentions, you can not say that you know how every role and every player will handle in each situation and declare that as the only possible result. You can say "I'll eat my hat if I'm wrong!" but you are being incredibly selfish because you are basing not only your own involvement in the game but also everyone else's and the game itself on YOUR assumptions.

I voted over what Poro quoted. I just find the missing actions thing really hard to believe.

I am guessing you had no problem getting your night actions in, then?

I am most suspicious of Xtoxm now.

Alabaska J

: There is no reason to NK me tonight, as the mafia will. There will be no reason to try and kill Xtoxm tonight, if he is not lynched, as I Will be protecting/roleblocking him. Ergo, that leaves Matt_S and Cream147 as night choices for you that are valid. If Xtoxm is mafia, you and I will not die tonight. If mafia thinks that you are going to NK me, they will probably try to NK you, instead..

What I am not seeing is where Alabaska J claimed something that wasn't part of the role, I Think I missed that part of the page or something, but it looks like he got attacked some time after he stated his kills.

[Skruffs]

My biggest problem with you PopularTajo isn't that I Think you are scummy bu that I think you are being an INtentionally Bad Townie, and I don't understand why.
You are making assumption about my playstyle nad then holding them against me, finding them to be false, and instead of saying "Oh so there's more than one way to do this", you are saying I must be scum because I don't fit what YOU think of as the correct behavior for htat situation.

[Skruffs]

Not if you are mafia with him, and not if he is worried abou getting a roleblocking tonight.

[Skruffs]

Actually I would like to put my voice in with the possibility that Patrick might be doing things differently than Mistef intended; while the doctor's role protects against ALL possible nightkills, the jailkeeper can only protect against one.

[Skruffs]

I think Skruffs might be the best lynch.

Because I'm a claimed powerrole?

[Skruffs]

Unvote

But how can you explain the NK immunity thing?

Originally, I was NK-immune and whenever I was targeted for a nightkill the person who targeted me was killed instead, but had no kill of my own. I was confused how this was an SK and how I could win the game as this SK. Patrick agreed it was odd, but said he had seen SKs without kills before. I pointed out that the first post said I had a kill. Because of this, he agreed that I should have a kill and gave me a nightkill and took away my retroactive kill.

If it matters, the role pm that patrick sent me was NOT identical to the Role PM that Mistef has posted on the first page.

[Skruffs]

Whyja say that Porochaz?
Busted.

[Skruffs]

Because I talked with NAR over AIM, and he mentioned he was in this game with me as an alt. I'm familiar enough with his posting style to pick out who he was pretty much immediately after I knew he was in the game. Because I have seen NAR get lynched as town often day one, and fake claimed as town, as well as scum, everything he did that was suspicious to everyone else was therefore not as suspicious to me.


Xtoxm, saying you are a 'practically confirmed' townie means nothing, and especially in regards to the way you are stalling, it's making you look scummier. Trying to clear yourself without explaining why, in detail, and instead just saying "Because", indicates you are bluffing. If you are town, then you should have no problem trying to help find the real scum.

Knowing that there was a jailkeeper, you would have no reason to quick hammer someone.

Personally Cream147 seems kind of upset about the whole 'disparancies' about the role pms, so I'd like him, then Xtoxm to go.

Unvote

I say I am willing to vote someone before I vote them in lylo situations because I see no reason to throw away a game based on an impulse that could be proven wrong later.

[Skruffs]

There are four people alive.
If we lynch mafia today, I can JK alabaska J tonight, for a town win. If we lynch Alabaska, and there is a mafia tonight, then I have a 50% chance of having a town win.
I did send in a night action last night, in time.
Did I stop the kill from happening or did I save someone from being killed, or did the mafia No-kill to either make me look more or less credible. Or maybe the mafia is in fact extinguished, in which case lynching Alabaska IS the right choice.

I would like both Porochaz and Cream147 to claim, now. I realize Porochaz is AFK for a while, so Cream, you can claim first.

I get the impression that the safest bet will be to lynch alabaska J if we can't beat this through porochaz and cream claiming.

[Skruffs]

Cream147, what do you think the best course of action would be?
I'll ask Poro when he gets back, too.

[Skruffs]

I am half tempted to agree.
If the mafia was only a two-person team, then lynching the SK means an automatic town win, with no worries about wether what I did last night was right or not.

If there is still a mafia, then there are really two questions: Who is it, and did they try to kill last night. I'm not confirmed, either, of course, as the only person I imagine the mafia would want to kill would be the claimed power role, and, if I was the mafia, I Would have to no-NK and then claim to have RB'd someone else to be seen as credible.

That nobody has suggested that kind of irks me.

Mod: If there was a mafia roleblocker alive, would htey be able to roleblock AND kill ont he same night?

[Skruffs]

I would prefer to hit maf today.

unvote, vote: Cream147

I would too, obviously. Claioming SK invariably helps town catch mafia but results in your loss, too, every single time. It's sad.

[Skruffs]

Happy Scumday.
So you think that lynching Alabaska J is the best solution, and if the game doesn't end immediately, we have a mafia.

What if I said I jailkept you last night? I'm not saying I did, simply positing, what if I did?

[Skruffs]

Well, I jailkept Cream147. I'm pretty sure either the mafia would attempt to have tried to kill me or would have not killed anyone in the hopes that either the SK would kill me or that I would JK the wrong target.
Porochaz, Cream, I need your guys' help in figuring out who I should JK tonight, if there is one.

[Skruffs]

So neither of you are suggesting that either A) there is no mafia or that B) mafia didn't kill or C) cream147 was actually roleblocked or even that (for some reason) D) porochaz tried to kill cream?

*pokes both of you*

[Skruffs]

Guh. I really hoped one of you would at least try to look at the other's connections. You both seem to be backing each other instead. I doubt there was a four person mafia with only a cop and jailkeeper, so I doubt you are both mafia.

I'll be voting Alabaska with my next post, please put in any last words on why Cream is scum and why Porochaz isn't to help confirm my beliefs.

[Skruffs]

You don't even have to worry about it Alabaska <3

Vote: Alabaska J

[Skruffs]

I jailkept porochaz after reviewing his actions towards scum and town players. I also assumed that he would be more likely to have no-k'd the night before as scum, since it would lead to more suspicion on cream.

[Skruffs]

Doesn'tHammer

Porochaz, this is your chance to shine. It looks liek you are giving up or something.
How do you plead?

[Skruffs]

I will point out that Matt_S's early interactions with Alvinz and Cream147 are interesting.
I haven't voted either of you yet because I need one of you to actually step up to the plate.

[Skruffs]

That's not a good defense Porochaz. I can see Cream147 not even bothering to submit a NK because he assumed he would be JK'd again, but you didn't even mention that. Obviously if I was scum I would have killed last night or hammered today; I'm not.

I'm in no huge rush to end the game but if you want your side to win (Whichever side it is) you need to step up.

[Skruffs]

True, but by your own admission you weren't really trying yesterday - after I had jailkept you - and it was only after I said who I had JK'd last night that you suddenly perked back up again.

[Skruffs]

But your argument against yourself being scum was an incredibly vague and not really alignment-confirming suggestion that you voted both of your presumable scum partners. Mafia has no problem voting mafia if it benefits them, though, especially if the SK has claimed already.

I have a question for the mod!

[Skruffs]

I'll make my decision, you are saying now that you only thought there were two mafia. However:

Alabaska is the one who

needs

to be lynched tomorrow. We can't have 2 kills tomorrow night after all.

This was around the time you voted Matt_S. This suggests that either you didn't think Matt_S was mafia (if you thought there were only two mafia) and thus you shouldn't have been voting him, or you thought that Matt_S was mafia (which explains you voting him) but that you thought there wouuld be another mafia afterwards.


Keep in mind I am only discussing things until Porochaz 'comes back'. Clearing up any doubts I have about you will make it more likely I will be voting him. I know how being busy can be which is why I am discussing this with you, first, of coures.

[Skruffs]

Dum de doo de dum de dah.

[Skruffs]

Okay, porochaz, you are posting to the site again, I see. If you take the game seriously and are town,please post to this game. I've even laid arguments out gainst creamm for you; all you have to do is provide input. Let's get to it!

[Skruffs]

Stop playing with my heart strings you douchebag!!!

[Skruffs]

This is extremely frustrating.

Patrick: Any chance you could find a replacement?

If cream147 is scum, town can not win without a replacement.

[Skruffs]

I asked; if it comes down to a jailkeeper and a mafia, the mafia wins.

[Skruffs]

That's not good enough..
I guess I need to read the entire game.

[Skruffs]

I kind of agree.
Killing the other person guarantees a no-kill, either the person killing is roleblocked or the person being killed is protected.

[Skruffs]

I am probably going to vote Porochaz.

[Skruffs]

Okay.
If the mafia can kill the jailkeeper while jailed, then I should be dead.
I jalkept you.
Since you infer that you think I should be dead, that means the person I jailkept should be mafia.

Which means your misunderstanding of my endgame scenario led to you outing of yourself as mafia.


Right?

[Skruffs]

What makes you sure that I was targetted one of those nights though? I JK'd Cream147 the first night - which means I protected him from you or protected myself from him. And I jailkept you last night, which means I kept you from killing or that cream147 didn't kill last night.

I am going to vote you after my SHOWA/

[Skruffs]

If I had been targetted both nights, I'd be dead. One night, the mafia no-killed. I am trying to figure out which night.

[Skruffs]

Yes, I am here... have been posting to another LYLO game I am in, and didni't realize you had posted to Cream147 in this one.

Let's look at the voting history of trhe known scum (Alvinz and Matt_S) in regards to the both of you:

For example, ALvinz basically ignored evilgorillaz, voting him once when evilgorillas said that "Scum can determine who we think is town" And thinking that the "We" meant scum. That might have been a slip on his part.

Cream147 and Alvinz were pretty much slapping each other around all day.

So Alvinz treated both players very differently - EG he ignored and Cram147 he attacked and talked with.

Compare that with how he acts towards Matt_S - he completely ignored Matt_S, even to the point of when I was attacking Matt_S, he said he was going to let it play itself out.

That means that according to the way Alvinz acted towards the two possible scum adn the one confirmed scum, Porochaz is the most likely to be scum. Now I will look at Matt_S's interactions between the two, and Alvinz.

[Skruffs]

Matt_S replaced into the game, and was very mild to both Alvinz and EG and Cream147. He pointed out EG's "Alvinz isn't scummy, he's likely town or a power role" quote", bu didn't follow up on it. He bantered with Alvinz a goood bit, as well as with Cream147, in regards to Cream147's focus solely on Alvinz.

Then there is this bit:

I have a concern about you Matt. My concern is that you are trying to forge some link between you and I. Maybe you are trying to make me look like your scumbuddy? First you defend me, then you question me and ask me lots of questions. This is all common scum behaviour towards their scumbuddy. Don't think I don't notice.

K, whatever. I looked at your attack on alvinz in a new way.

shortly after this, Matt_S switched his attention to Me and Coheed.
When I voted Cream147, he asked me why I was voting Cream instead of MM.
After Elias was lynched he basically ignores both Cream147 and Porochaz until yesterday and the day before, but even then, he was more pushing cream147 than porochaz, even while sayign porochaz was mostly useless.

I think that his initial push on Cream147 as Alvinz's scumbuddy (even before Alvinz was lynched) was perhaps designed to *look* like distancing, I could be wrong.

Regardless, there is no reason to keep this going.

I hope I'm right! If I'm not, good game Cream147. The jailkeeping last night is going to finalize my suspicions of Porochaz.

Vote: Porochaz

[Skruffs]

>.>
<.<
sorry
I just wanted to force porochaz to respond first.. I know he's a tricky devil.

[Skruffs]

I think the best option would have been to say that I was a mafia roleblocker and that I wasn't killing because I couldn't kill myself.. that would be my guess

[Skruffs]

Wow, of all the things I've been called, open minded isn't one of them.
And I Didn't get the first night action in until after day had started, so I didn't actually target MM.

So wait, if I had targetted Alabaska instead of cream, would I have been killed?

[Skruffs]

He was roleblocked! How could he have?