Mini Normal 2285: GM [game over]

[innocentvillager]

I know people are getting paranoid because solves are confusing but just a reminder I literally cannot play like this as scum, nor can a lot of people.

[innocentvillager]

I don’t always play like this as town (see recent town micro tree stump) but when I do I am town. Assume I’m town and go from there, don’t let that disrupt your solves.

[innocentvillager]

I think there has to be scum in the pr claims at this point, this doesnt make sense otherwise

Ok this was before Kt claimed - why..? What were you thinking here

[innocentvillager]

i jailkept Skitter last night.
So either scum shot at me while math was healing me (at least i think math healed me)
Shot into skitter.
No killed hoping my JK was frame

Or scum is just skitter who tried to kill.

Pick ur theory

Well i would be quite surprised if scum tried to kill me
And scum shooting at you is a little ???? given math indicated he was gonna be on you
And i know i didnt try to kill anyone last night

So ... i'm left with a nk frame or you being scum

oh it wasn’t cuz too much tpr, it was bcz this (correct me if I’m wrong). false alarm

[innocentvillager]

way i feel about role is that if all mafia ninja then i probably there to investigate in way that can get them
i think that mafia must have way to mitigate me or give pseudo innocent i dont know exactly how though
probably some kind of block to try and deal with doctor and jk if all town

I agree.

Why would mafia Need to have a block for a one shot?

[innocentvillager]

and i aint even going to entertain possibility u were roleblocked ydra

Why couldn’t Ydrasse have been continuously roleblocked by scum? (Eg scum skitter or whoever) she was softing some cool role after all

[innocentvillager]

I don't see scum!Ydra + town!skitter.

So either both scum, both town or town!Ydra + scum!skitter..

If we flip town!skitter ydra prob town.

I agree with this.

what why can’t Ydrasse scum + town skitter

[innocentvillager]

I'm okay with doing but this is one of the more interesting games I've been in.

Herta is town scum dont say shit like this lol

[innocentvillager]

I’m sort of caught up now.

I confused, everyone seems towny to some degree. Need stew on it and get back into real-time posting next couple days

[innocentvillager]

I’ve been catching up slowly on a shaky bus on my phone traveling all day today so excuse me for not being as sharp as normal this past week

[innocentvillager]

also my closed game mech is just notoriously rly bad and I confuse

[innocentvillager]

It’s kinda hard for me to believe two of Val Herta Freedom are scum here, let’s just say that.

[innocentvillager]

If freedom is scum his agenda this entire game was to just act agreeable sheepy and as uninformed as possible

[innocentvillager]

also again i have to repeat for anyone who stupidly thinks im scum:
that people are ignoring for whatever reason no matter how many times i repeat it.
For me to be scum:
I would have to go for no kill 3 nights intentionally:
A) My slot is informed of Toto role. I know he can't be protected. If im scum could easily had pooky go for Toto and would never be found out.
B) I decided to buss pooky instead of calling math scum yesterday for my 'fake jk' (we are assuming for this argument im not jk)
C) I also am not trying to elim Skitter today even though i have soft guilty on her via no one dying. Yet everyone claims of this hypo world in which I AM THE ONE who is trying to frame her, even though arguing the exact opposite. Scum framing her by no killing or shooting me/skitter. Why should skitter. No clue

And finally and probably more importantly. What makes anyone think by play i am scum here. Ignoring the mechanics for 5 minutes cause we all should. What makes u think my interactions with pooky when i subbed in and called him scum, is me bussing. Do we have arguments on this?

Skitter im specifically looking at you for this, because ur being exceptionally lazy with analysis lately.

The only thing that really gives me pause here is A, but maybe for some reason you guys wanted to kill me n1 (not sure why but ok?) and then no killed later nights to confuse town.

B) Math is kinda obvtown and that would never realistically work so I could see you abandoning that plan

C) okay you say you aren’t trying to elim her but your result clearly still states it does so people are obviously going to draw their own conclusions from that which if you were scum you would know?

ur interactions with Pooky Im not good enough to determine with confidence that you two are unpartnered

[innocentvillager]

I think Freedom is scum purely based on gut. If we're looking int he wrong place being agreeable is a common scum tactic. I've done it before.

It’s so level zero I don’t think scum play level 0 they’re usually on level 1 or 2

[innocentvillager]

I have to admit that despite all this that freedom has drifted to my bottom 2 (Val Freedom) even though he doesn’t feel scummy

[innocentvillager]

are we like 98%+ sure on Kt being town by mech? The all mafia ninja public info shit makes zero sense without there being a real town watcher right? Also scum wouldn’t claim a major non gated role like that I assume

[innocentvillager]

and i aint even going to entertain possibility u were roleblocked ydra

Why couldn’t Ydrasse have been continuously roleblocked by scum? (Eg scum skitter or whoever) she was softing some cool role after all

Because theres two protective claims that existed prior to night 3. Why would u go for ydra when u have no idea if she bluffing or what and not the JK/Doc.

This should be obvious.

well sounds like the plan might’ve not been to get a kill so why would they need to block a Jk or Doc?

[innocentvillager]

Fire who is the scum in your eyes on day play if the mech is irrelevant?

[innocentvillager]

relax

Deep breath

[innocentvillager]

TOTO

[innocentvillager]

Skitter can you tell me more about your recent hertz thoughts? I did a ctrl f in ur iso and haven’t really seen anything about him in the latter half of ur iso

[innocentvillager]

I briefly isod ur large normal game with some others and yea I guess ur vibe seems similar ish here so that sort of negates some of the issues I had with u I guess?

[innocentvillager]

I didn’t read carefully enough to understand your history with claiming tho

Like do you see how I could think that ur claim here is kinda underwhelming cuz not self resolving at all but you used it as an excuse to dodge the elim for 3 days - seems like there’s plenty of at least level 0 scum motivation to do that? What do u think

[innocentvillager]

Yeah a no yeet will just end up with mafia no-killing or taking a shot at a PR or IV. The game won't move forward and we might lose a town voice. I want somewhere within the VTs. Herta has been just

there

all game.

I agree that there’s basically no point to no elim

[innocentvillager]

I'm scum happy holidays btchz

[innocentvillager]

oops wrong thread

[innocentvillager]

skitters analysis seems lacking here compared to her town games.
i have hard time believing she would be as focused on herta in this game after pooky flip tbh.
It doesn't seem like she is interested in pooky associations. maybe a skitter here thinks she can't associate pooky with scumteam
But it seems like a vanity read on herta this game and im still for life of me trying to piece together why she is tunneled.

Also skitter lacks her natural curiousness she has as town.
i remember when i played against her as scum and fake scumread her, all she did in that game was constantly ask me questions to try to understand the scumread. I had to delay and give her fake reasons as long as i could but she was constantly searching an understanding for my or other reads.

Compare that to this. She doesn't seem like she is curious to understand a persons reads, she just states her opinions and continues hammers them in.

Granted this game and my games with skitter are like a year to 2 old now. But this feels a very diff skitter.

I agree with this game feeling like a different skitter than the one I am used to (also somewhat of an older impression, like you). It is difficult for me to determine what exactly that means for her alignment.

[innocentvillager]

Remind me - the literal only scenario Ydrasse town skitter scum is possible is: scum roleblocked Ydrasse or scum rolestopped skit? (Assuming all townies are truthtelling)

[innocentvillager]

and all scum are ninjas
i think that points to kitty being town
(it doesn't fit with anything else and this is a really random claim for scum to come up with)

and i think math is town because:
* no other explanation for n1
* i don't think pooky looks aligned with math given their argment when math repped in

so let's start there

pedit mafia not shooting n1 is wild
like i've never even seen such a thing wild

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=84523

[innocentvillager]

the difference between this game and that was that i had a role that was from the start publicly known by everyone lol
like everyone knew mafia doctor, the claim and no kill was necessary to try and establish myself there was an actual reason
here what would be the move. "yeah lets do something weird because we can" is silly

and i also literally do this every game these days lol
it's fun to tease like "oooh im important you cant do anything about it" and then it's true and im like hehe >:3c

and this is what ydr said about that game where she was scum with spookybear

[innocentvillager]

I don’t think it’s likely at all

I think it’s unlikely but *possible* especially given we know scum spooky has done and come up with it before. How possible super up for debate.

[innocentvillager]

skitter both Fire and me feel like ur different from ur normal game - what do u think about that

[innocentvillager]

Still don’t get ur herta read
Where is pooky associations with herta that is scum
It seems like this is forced read

Pooky has defended Herta and Herta frequently voted for alternate Pooky wagon candidates. Not necessarily partnery but not antipartnery

[innocentvillager]

idk if you're talking about me there but I keep bringing it up because Pooky (mostly) orchestrated it in that game and Pooky we know is scum this game. I may have insinuated a while ago that I think you and Pooky just wanted to relive that once but that was just a random narrative lolshot - the main indicative thing just being really that we know Pooky is scum.

[innocentvillager]

If it wasn't clear, based on that, I don't think that the nk incriminates you more than anyone else.

So who be shady then? Seems like you're talking about specific pipo there.If it was me, hopefully that clarifies my stance 4u.

[innocentvillager]

especially when the main (?) people suggesting it currently/pushing for it are the people who are either (1) in the vt pool that was being bandied about to be limmed today or (2) pr role able to do said nk shenanigans/"able to do them"

This looks like word salad to me can you be more specific (maybe put some names if that helps)

[innocentvillager]

And actually i'm not sure it really incriminates ydra, i don't really see any motivation for her being part of this

mmmmmmMMMMMMMMMmmmmmMMMMmmmm
sHe also said this after

[innocentvillager]

Don't hold back on us Ydrasse don't just take it lying down if you know we're wrong

[innocentvillager]

And actually i'm not sure it really incriminates ydra, i don't really see any motivation for her being part of this

mmmmmmMMMMMMMMMmmmmmMMMMmmmm
sHe also said this after

Was this to me or ydra?

I referred to you as "she" so Ydra

[innocentvillager]

I kinda thought Math was just straight up town on play. But I guess I've never seen scum!Math, and maybe the stuff I thought he was townie for he's actually just brazen scum?

It might be worth revisiting at some point. But I remembering feeling fairly decent about it though

[innocentvillager]

unwnd Doccing me n1 is not strange to me at all. Val does bring up a good point though that unwnd saying that he was a little bit more paranoid of me on d2 daystart IS fairly strange.

[innocentvillager]

Val seems like a nit picky player I’ve been seeing it throughout this game

Idk if it’s alignment indicativ
Is there something in particular you don’t like about Val, Toto?

[innocentvillager]

Hello AtE my old friend

[innocentvillager]

“You’ll see on my flip why I don’t TR FB. That’s the easiest way.”

bro what?

[innocentvillager]

Was mainly referring to Val, Firebringer.

And I don’t believe AtE is scum!indicative.

[innocentvillager]

Let's hear it then.

This sounded very hilariously uninformed for some reason and gave me townvibes

[innocentvillager]

pooky v mathblade indicates he is town.
also this is literally the same mathblade who played with me in house of the dragons where he tunneled on me calling me scum all game and in the dead thread even when i got guilties on the scum.
he even said word for word i was gambitting to buy towncred, that he literally just gave u as the reason i didn't kill him last night.

Its comical how silly math is. Could this be fake? Sure I guess. But from my experience with scum!math to town!math. One I can work with and is reasonable, the other is not. I will let you figure out which is which.

So in your experience scum!Math is reasonable? (I have never played with scum!Math)

[innocentvillager]

If I absolutely had to vig some1 rn I think it would be Ydr

[innocentvillager]

At some point I was worried Math was softing JOAT.

so yeah,

So we have an informed macho IC
an infinite shot ninja doctor
a many shot jail keeper informed that I'm macho.
a presumably infinite shot ascetic watcher
a 1-shot-almost-cop

Either way it's interesting none of these gain anything or are encouraged to target me on N1, which is at least consistent.

But also seems like we are one Ironman short of the avengers. But maybe I'm making too big of a deal here.

kitty has to be town due to the ninja thing, right? *looks nervously at datisi*

scum Math means = scum NKed on N1, Math tried to shoot but got JKed on N2, Math + X decided to NK on N3 or Math+Skitter is a thing where Math is a roleblocker who roleblocked Ydra.

Fire scum means = they shot at IV on N1, they decided to NK on n2 and not kill to get town cred? or to make fun of Math, maybe, Fire+X decided to NK on n3 or Fire+Skitter where they roleblocked Ydra.

Ydra scum means = scum shot at IV on N1, they shot at Math on N2, they decided to nk on N3, presumably to frame someone. What doesn't add up is declaring Skitter scum. But maybe the simple solution is ydra+skitter and we are complicating all this.

Occam's razor says Ydra is scum.

JK + doctor + watcher + IC is sort of still OP but maybe ok given IC and watcher are not protectable.

Scummy post. LimToto

[innocentvillager]

So he is scummy not for the case but because he didn’t vote you immediately after?

[innocentvillager]

everything Ydrasse is saying seems reasonable to me from a town POV which is annoying

[innocentvillager]

Idk I still want to kill you

Like yeah it’s town indicative that it is all kinda weird and makes sense but like who else is there????

[innocentvillager]

I am just not really seeing scum!Math here unless he was like heavily coached to be tunnely and unreasonable by pooky+.

[innocentvillager]

skitter has not given a reason for scum!Herta in like 80 pages I don’t even know what she thinks about him anymore

[innocentvillager]

I’m not dying to find out that much yet

Also both Ydr and skitter have said their wim is abnormally low for some reason and they can’t both be like town truthtelling right? Idk

[innocentvillager]

Oh I did read that.

I mean sure that does help a bit (it’s easy to theorize about association stuff I guess?) but id like to know what she thinks about herta by himself now ig

[innocentvillager]

I hope the town doesn’t get deflated from the confusion today, I still think we’re in a decent spot with all the no nightkills. We can absolutely still pull this off if we keep perservering through the dateezee chaos

[innocentvillager]

do people still play that 2003 game?

[innocentvillager]

idk if im being crabby or not though like i want to be the brave soldier following on my sword to save everyone here but it makes me so annoyed to do LOL

Why is this a real thought you had? What exactly do you think being brave and falling on your sword will accomplish as opposed to trying to kill someone else today who might be scum…?

[innocentvillager]

Can you (re)clarify what you think is “so obvious” that you’re town here?

[innocentvillager]

2) remove the chances that im the losing elim at endgame. if i don’t have the fight in me i’d rather die sooner and let someone else who does win it for us

I mean we have to kill someone at endgame (that we could otherwise kill now). The way I see it we have X miselims and you “being brave” isn’t really like “Saving the town”

Just my 2c I could be wrong

[innocentvillager]

I’m quite conflicted on you Ydr

Your relaxedness and ability to flow smoothly in thread whenever you post (non stilted) makes me lean town, but I have a feeling you can fake this.

Your lack of wim sort of feels scum indicative but I can see you losing interest as town too.

Your recent muddy meta makes you feel kind of unreadable since I see you are doing something similar as town

Your Pr actions seem plausibly scum motivated but are weird enough and still plausibly towny that I’m kind of ?? Here, I think you could’ve faked it and have motivation to but I’m unsure why this is the specific trajectory you decide to take as scum ig

I don’t have any strong opinions on who else is scum this game

I’m left very weakly gravitating towards you as the elim

[innocentvillager]

and i guess it’s like idk risk avoidance to use the miselim now if i can and remove myself from picture

i feel useless like i have a hierarchy of reads but can’t meaningfully pick one i feel good is bad and i’m afraid of being wrong

I don’t think you are alone at all in this feeling and that is very okay. I don’t think any of us really have this game figured out, so maybe that is worth considering when comparing your value to some other town player in this game (not that I think this is an essential thing to consider but if that’s partially your angle maybe this helps)

[innocentvillager]

I’ve always sort of been this kind of player, maybe more in the past couple years than before. I’m not much of a leader especially when I’m conflicted, I’ve kind of felt in these sorts of situations I naturally shift more towards a mediating role that tries to stay positive/rational keep the town together and not falling apart. Idk if ends up being beneficial to town or just noise but that’s kinda how I feel this game for example.

[innocentvillager]

I’m also a very wishy washy player and I tend to overthink things and put myself in the other player’s shoes. Most of my contributions end up being more negating/poking at and questioning other player’s reads rather than pushing anything crazy myself. It’s not a great way to find scum, I’ll admit

[innocentvillager]

I guess part of me thinks that a world where town is motivated and cooperating with each other and being nice is more productive and pleasant than the alternative (demotivated chaos). I definitely see the value in letting things get heated and emotions coming out since that can provide media for people to townspew, so sometimes I like some of that as well. And I like to think I am being inclusive/open to hearing everyone’s thoughts

[innocentvillager]

I might try and hash out my thoughts on each slot later, not sure how much time I’ll have to do that, but now that I’m talking about all this I feel it might be a good time today or tmr (game day) to revisit each +town reason/hunch vibe I have on each player to see which reasons I gave unnecessary weight to

[innocentvillager]

vla through 12/31

I'm fine with flipping in freedom, herta and val. We get a dead body with freedom, some info with Herta, and more info with Val I think.

This game has me questioning everything really. Even the lock IV town read. I can see where toto is going with that. I think that's the reason for my little pings about Math also.

Is there a reason you referring to yourself as 3rd person? What info with yourself?

[innocentvillager]

Herta’s analysis of how good a flip is seems very focused on “what information it would provide” throughout this entire game.

When do we start killing people because they are likelier to be scum and not because of “information”? Is there any crucial info that we have gotten from the past 3 flips, that were all done for good information? (Except pooky somewhat I guess)

[innocentvillager]

Anyone thinks it is possible/likely all three scum were on the Gera wagon?

geraintm [7]: Scoliosis, Toto

, Freedom, Herta, innocentvillager, Val89,

PookyTheMagicalBear

[HAMMER]
Scoliosis [4]: KittyTacky, Firebringer, MathBlade, Ydrasse
Herta [1]: geraintm
unwnd [1]: skitter30
not voting [0]:

If not at least one scum in {Kitty, Firebringer, MathBlade, Ydrasse, Skitter}.

It's funny the answer is almost the equivalent to are all PR claims true?

I mentioned it as a possibility a while ago

[innocentvillager]

Oh I did read that.

I mean sure that does help a bit (it’s easy to theorize about association stuff I guess?) but id like to know what she thinks about herta by himself now ig

still scummy + makes sense as a pooky partner

I don’t know why you’re not trying to push harder any case him if you believe in it so much

[innocentvillager]

It’s your one tunnel yet it’s weird can’t figure out why exactly you are so tunneled on him

For a player of your caliber too I’m just left going ??

Don’t you want to convince me and others to sheep you?

[innocentvillager]

I know your wim is abnormally low for this game for some reason and that’s fine you do you but I feel like I’m the one begging for you to convince me on your tunnel usually it is the other way around for me

[innocentvillager]

Maybe I’m exaggerating a little bit but it did feel like I’ve asked a few times today and you’re giving me either none or minimalist answers instead of taking the opportunity to convince me

[innocentvillager]

Herta can you tell me a bit more about your scumgame vs town game - and why from your point of view you are town this game, and should we be able to see it

[innocentvillager]

Looking at votes

Pooky's scoliosis push pretty quickly faded. He riled up everyone and unwnd votes sco in 458, Pooky at 459, Toto at 498, Herta at 508,. Then unwnd unvotes at 512 and Pooky unvotes at 555. At 557 Pooky says he's going to go back to scoliosis and he goes on to vote geraintm at 794 and just kind of drops the scoliosis push altogether while still talking smack about him.

Skitter votes me at 38 for reasons I still don't understand, unvotes at 462 because there's no wagon, and then revotes me at 607. She has pretty much sheeped Dann's case on me, which isn't a good one.

KittyTacky is doing what I would expect a town KittyTacky to do, tunnel on his initial read, which is scum!scoliosis who he voted at 11 and hasn't moved of of.

Ydra hasn't voted for anyone other than Pooky at 335 and then an unvote at 465. I don't remember Ydra being so uncommital but I don't remember a lot about their play in general.

Freedom has made one vote, geraintm at 722, and hasn't really committed to anything.

It took Val a long time to move off of his skitter vote at 106, when he voted scoliosis at 930, despite the obvious fact that there has been no will to wagon skitter all Day.

Geraintm has an RVS vote on me at 44, that he says is RVS but if you look at the post it doesn't look like RVS. No commitment to anything from him.

Dannflor's vote record looks okay: unwnd at 167 (could be RVS), Pooky at 419, Herta at 520, scoliosis at 749, geraintm at 866, and scoliosis again at 929, and the more I look at it the votes on unwnd, Pooky and Herta weren't really wagon votes so I think he looks better than what I had the impression of.

scoliosis doesn't look opportunistic, Val at 20, ydra at 41, skitter at 284, pooky at 468, unwnd at 551 and geraintm at 579. None of them were being wagoned except for the vote on ydra(church) was starting a wagon, and the vote on geraintm was the second vote.

Innocent Villager voted me at 79, pooky at 104 and geraintm at 107 with an unvote at 871. There's nothing scummy.

unwnd votes scoliosis at 458 after Pooky's case and unvotes at 512 when scoliosis says something to change their mind, geraintm at 753 sheeping IV with an unvote at 945.

I'd have KittyTacky and Innocentvillager as town. Maybe Val, Dann, unwnd as null town. geraintm as null scummish, freedom as null, Ydra as null, scoliosis as null scummish, Pooky as null scummish. Skitter as scum.

There's nothing really distinct btween Ydra and freedom. I could see being very wrong on Dann, unwnd and/or Pooky. My pool for today would be geraintm, scoliosis and skitter.

Also, this was your big notes post a while ago, after scum pooky prompted you to provide some thoughts. You said you were working on these notes. Did you stop taking notes/do you have other notes to share with us?

[innocentvillager]

Freedom is kind of a hero shot. He has no interactions with anyone really at least none that mean anything I don't think. So his flip is wasted if green bc no associations. I don't it but I'd rather someone who gives us an idea of rest of team.

@skitter this is the sort of comment I don’t really see coming from scum. Idk I don’t feel like scum talk about slots in this way.

[innocentvillager]

I'm okay with doing but this is one of the more interesting games I've been in.

Herta is town scum dont say shit like this lol

Bro idk why but when I read (and even now just on reread) these two posts of Herta I just can’t for the life of me figure out why scum would say something like this

It sounds so dumb but my gut is saying town for these posts alone, especially the second one

[innocentvillager]

Pooky could’ve just had TMI on Herta and saw things in his town game than uninformed players wouldn’t?

[innocentvillager]

Good post.

VOTE: gera

e-1

UNVOTE:

herta can you share some more of your thoughts with us please

also dont e-1 until after toto claims his info

Looking at votes

Pooky's scoliosis push pretty quickly faded. He riled up everyone and unwnd votes sco in 458, Pooky at 459, Toto at 498, Herta at 508,. Then unwnd unvotes at 512 and Pooky unvotes at 555. At 557 Pooky says he's going to go back to scoliosis and he goes on to vote geraintm at 794 and just kind of drops the scoliosis push altogether while still talking smack about him.

Skitter votes me at 38 for reasons I still don't understand, unvotes at 462 because there's no wagon, and then revotes me at 607. She has pretty much sheeped Dann's case on me, which isn't a good one.

KittyTacky is doing what I would expect a town KittyTacky to do, tunnel on his initial read, which is scum!scoliosis who he voted at 11 and hasn't moved of of.

Ydra hasn't voted for anyone other than Pooky at 335 and then an unvote at 465. I don't remember Ydra being so uncommital but I don't remember a lot about their play in general.

Freedom has made one vote, geraintm at 722, and hasn't really committed to anything.

It took Val a long time to move off of his skitter vote at 106, when he voted scoliosis at 930, despite the obvious fact that there has been no will to wagon skitter all Day.

Geraintm has an RVS vote on me at 44, that he says is RVS but if you look at the post it doesn't look like RVS. No commitment to anything from him.

Dannflor's vote record looks okay: unwnd at 167 (could be RVS), Pooky at 419, Herta at 520, scoliosis at 749, geraintm at 866, and scoliosis again at 929, and the more I look at it the votes on unwnd, Pooky and Herta weren't really wagon votes so I think he looks better than what I had the impression of.

scoliosis doesn't look opportunistic, Val at 20, ydra at 41, skitter at 284, pooky at 468, unwnd at 551 and geraintm at 579. None of them were being wagoned except for the vote on ydra(church) was starting a wagon, and the vote on geraintm was the second vote.

Innocent Villager voted me at 79, pooky at 104 and geraintm at 107 with an unvote at 871. There's nothing scummy.

unwnd votes scoliosis at 458 after Pooky's case and unvotes at 512 when scoliosis says something to change their mind, geraintm at 753 sheeping IV with an unvote at 945.

I'd have KittyTacky and Innocentvillager as town. Maybe Val, Dann, unwnd as null town. geraintm as null scummish, freedom as null, Ydra as null, scoliosis as null scummish, Pooky as null scummish. Skitter as scum.

There's nothing really distinct btween Ydra and freedom. I could see being very wrong on Dann, unwnd and/or Pooky. My pool for today would be geraintm, scoliosis and skitter.

That was up to mid-day today. I need to add this evening.

This doesn’t feel like a coached/orchestrated interaction, but I could be confibased a little?

[innocentvillager]

If Herta is scum, Herta’s E1 was not part of the plan.

Herta did it and scum!Pooky knew that it made Herta look bad so he unvoted to posture and look townie but mainly to do damage control on Herta. He knows Herta’s been planning some catch-up post so he tells Herta to post that quickly and make it look organic.


This is like the only world I see this as a scum scum interaction. It doesn’t feel right that Herta’s E1 and Pooky’s unvoted was all orchestrated, that feels too weird and Herta is already a E1-happy person this game. Why feel the need to risk with the E1 in the first place?

So in order for this to work out, Pooky needs to make the decision in a few minutes to rush Herta on his catch-up notes and give him an opportunity to towntell. Which like, fine, it could happen, but a) why didn’t Herta check in with the scum PT before just doing it? The other wagon was Scoliosis who is also town, so there was no rush to E1 gera and b) why does scum Herta have all those notes basically done if he’s not planning on theatering with Pooky?

It’s too low key of an interaction to be like a completely orchestrated interaction and if it’s a partially orchestrated interaction prompted off of pooky trying to damage control it’s like, too ridiculous idk.

The Occam’s razor of what’s going on there is Herta is an E1 happy person and Pooky saw an opportunity to posture/pretend he was helping town by slowing down the leading wagon when all the wagons were on town anyway. He didn’t expect Herta to actually come up with a townish looking wall so he felt like with his trajectory he had to called Herta town later, even if he had TMId him at the beginning

With all things there is uncertainty, but this is my best guess for what happened.

[innocentvillager]

I have my own thoughts on skitter but I’ll wait for skitter to clap back at me first

[innocentvillager]

Why are you townreading all of:me, herta, freedom, and unwnd

you just feel pretty townie to me

like peta says you're just kind of an easy read

the way I read you is mostly looking at your posts - comparing to thread and seeing if you're keeping up and generally how much you want to be here. if you feel like you want to be here/engage I slot you as town. You have issues keeping up with the thread this starts looking worse. Granted this isn't the fastest moving game so its not like foolproof way to slot you rn it still feels to me like you are engaged in the game and actually enjoying playing. I know I am biased because your last two scum games you kind of flaked out and those were larges moving at p fast speed but I think this is closer to how you looked in the coalition run than either of those scum games.

herta is very stilted as mafia, he doesn't really flow into the thread, it's like the guy at the party who has a drink in his hand but isn't involved in any of the conversations.

freedom is town because when he's scum, his questions are agenda-y and you can sort of see where he's trying to push something - here he's just kind of asking random things and popping in to say things.

unwnd is town because his play is completely perpendicular to his scum play - it is unstructured and freeflowing in a way that I don't think he really enjoys doing in general and especially as scum because chaos is the enemy of making plans.

Are these all town?

Funny Skitter is doing what pooky says scum!skitter does.

If anyone is scum here it’s Freedom maybe? but I would venture that the majority of these are town

[innocentvillager]

Oh skitter is included in that pool. I guess skitter could be scum. But we’ll see what skit says first

[innocentvillager]

I’m curious to see if anyone agrees with my points for town Herta

Like genuinely try to look at it in an unbiased way and see if you see what I’m seeing? I know it’s hard because I’ve already said what I see personally so its kinda hngngnggghh,,…, but like I guess try anyway? I would feel really bad if im defending someone who’s just been playing level 0 scum and I wifomed myself into thinking he’s town based on nonsense

[innocentvillager]

I mean if what you are saying is true then the meta is clearly in favor of Herta town here.

Thing is you’re not even sure if it’s true though, so that’s an issue. Hopefully you’re not biased by me.

[innocentvillager]

One thing that gives me pause is Pooky is 100% capable of hard defending a partner, I saw it once in Team Mafia 2021 where he literally defended his partner Kanna and yelled at the town about how bad they were during her twilight, lol. So Pooky could’ve felt that he was good enough to bullshit some vibe townread on his scum partner Herta.

It’s still not impossible that those 4 are all town, remember the targets were Scoliosis and geraint both of which were town at the time, so it’s not like he was lacking for targets

And also, the first thing he said at the beginning of D2 was that he was going to “reset his reads” (which at the time scumpinged me because it was such a weird time to feel the need to do that), so he gets to ditch these reads anyway. He could’ve been TMI truthtelling on 4 townies in that post as well.

[innocentvillager]

Ydrasse could be town and skitter was rolestopped by partner or something. If scum have a rolestopper it seems fairly natural to use it on skit.

[innocentvillager]

did scum skitter give up? Also possible

[innocentvillager]

VOTE: Freedom

[innocentvillager]

fuck it.

VOTE: herta
no jailkeep tonight.

IV dont u want to know if skitter scumread on herta is right.
I am dying to find out

Still don’t get ur herta read
Where is pooky associations with herta that is scum
It seems like this is forced read

Skitter’s post alone made you go from here to here…? If not then why are you on Herta now and why do are you dying to see this flip?

[innocentvillager]

I’m kinda down to just kill Freedom today.

[innocentvillager]

I feel a little better about her I guess? Not 100% but she feels fine atm to me.

[innocentvillager]

I think some of the Freedom townread was really just liking his playstyle of poking around and seeming uninformed. In retrospect a lot of that feels fakeable and past that I don’t really think I have another amazing reason to TR him. And given the state of the PoE it’s where I feel the least anxiety about flipping I guess

[innocentvillager]

I know it’s holidays but we are getting close to the point in time where we might not be able to switch wagons to someone else if we wait too long

Think we need to make some decisions soon

[innocentvillager]

Is Freedom who you are landing on IV?

I think for the most part yeah, unless something else happens or I change my mind

[innocentvillager]

mmmmm
freedom spent a game recently relying a lot on wolf team for assistance and them basically coaching his play a bit idk how that would impact this game

It could be that Pooky suggested Freedom just act uninformed and vibey/non agenday so he can keep townbinning him? Not that I gib lots of weight to this just a theory

[innocentvillager]

Note that Herta is not realistically scum with skitter, Fire, or Kitty, given that they’ve been parked on him and the game state has been fairly dead and scum bussing here at this stage with lots of townies and when we are all confused seems pretty dumb.

[innocentvillager]

dumb thought but i think while note taking and info gathering is p nai i want to think herta would feel a little more shame in saying @yeah i gave up”
also i’ve never seen anyone admit to like vote tracking in excel lol

Maybe for some ppl it’s NAI but I would be super shocked if on average it actually is NAI

Herta doesn’t exactly seem like a scum master strategist I guess based on his play? I could be wrong but that’s my impression.

But besides that I didn’t understand your point here

[innocentvillager]

Least towny

[innocentvillager]

I don’t love the idea of voting Val but I will do it if you would rather get Herta than Freedom. Is that where you’re rn, Toto?

[innocentvillager]

Skitter I feel like you answered everything except for the main question: why is Herta scum, other than Pooky’s supposed weird favoritism of him?

[innocentvillager]

I realize you’ve been clamoring for Herta but I don’t see a reason in your iso that isn’t from RVS

scum!Pooky is good enough at scum that I don’t think we can assume that much from his stances, idk. Surely he knows Herta looks bad if he flips, if Herta is his partner. It’s the obvious answer at least. It could be a frame job.

[innocentvillager]

I guess I know that my thought process on why those interactions and posts look town!Herta indicative was kind of niche, and I expected people to not really see what I see, was hoping on a long shot for some rando to vibe wit) me.

[innocentvillager]

The thing is if Pooky didn’t actually care that much about winning this game then I could see him doing the lazy thing and just having very face up reads and not caring about post death associatives, which would give credence to skitter’s associative analysis

[innocentvillager]

I don’t really want ydr hmmmmmm

[innocentvillager]

But we really should kill someone

[innocentvillager]

my god that wasn’t a watcher soft that’s how i talk
i have no reason to soft something and arbitrarily off-road

I agree with Ydr that that interaction felt like she was telling me to shut up because my Pr speculation was not helpful to town.

I really don’t think interpreting that as a possible informed/watcher soft is a good reason to kill Ydr

[innocentvillager]

Toto if that’s the reason for you wanting Ydr I’m not interested

I mean I would obviously rather kill Ydr than no one but like

Also why is it so hard to get any decent wagon on Freedom when no one really TRs him?

[innocentvillager]

Well we have Ydr Val and Math will sheep Toto

So really I just have to convince Toto to do Freedom over Herta

[innocentvillager]

VOTE: herta

w/e i don’t think the troops would rally to kill freedom but if you think we do i can vote there

What is your stance then/would you rather kill Herta or Freedom

Who looks reasonably. aligned with Herta rn other than me and Freedom himself?

[innocentvillager]

Like another plus to not killing Herta is this game becomes comically easy if Herta is scum because his scumbuddy pool is quite limited so we can always flip him by ELO ifneedbe

[innocentvillager]

You mean like Pooky-Herta associatives that Skitter seems super convinced by right? and Val partially too

[innocentvillager]

Seems like Firebringer’s excuse on this wagon is literally just because he wants to see if skitter is right?

[innocentvillager]

Ah There’s the unreadable Ydrasse AtE I know

[innocentvillager]

vca sayd it is ydra too

Ok y?

Can you pls sell me more on ydr

[innocentvillager]

D1 and D3 aren’t scum indicative to me whatsoever.

D2 is scum indicative but a bunch of ppl were on that wagon including me

[innocentvillager]

If there’s one player I will block out the AtE from its Ydrasse

[innocentvillager]

Is there anything else you can sell me Toto?

do you really still think the “stares” is any sort of informed pr/watcher soft bc I do think that is kind of ridiculous no matter what her alignment is

[innocentvillager]

You get a guilty+ You cant get killed because protectives+watcher sees one of them

I think Ydrasse’s reasoning for why she holstered until N3 are plausible to me, even if you would’ve played it differently.

Do you have dayplay arguments?

[innocentvillager]

She can definitely rage semi convincingly as either alignment is what I’m saying

[innocentvillager]

I don’t like the Herta wagon. I think mathematically (will verify later as rush job) a scum has to be on it somewhere. I also don’t like how a majority of the game isn’t working with a Toto + IV or hell if super paranoid Toto town block.

It feels wrong.

Well there’s currently some disagreement within the Toto IV town block so idk

[innocentvillager]

If Toto decides to shakes his IC fists by day’s end I will do whatever it takes to secure any elimination especially of his choosing and of course that includes Herta. But I like discussing as long as possible I still think there’s a little more room

[innocentvillager]

What about not playing or scumhunting

Also what do you mean by blocking ate

You think She’s not playing or scum hunting? Am I reading that right?

[innocentvillager]

We can talk more about fire tmr but I can’t really figure out why as scum Dann did and said and crumbed (?) nothing about the Toto Macho issue but Fire basically opens with that (simultaneously scum decide not to kill Toto d1)

If fire is scum why did Dann do nothing, didn’t kill Toto, then eminmediately when fire reps in he decides to soft it? This doesn’t seem like a cohesive scum agenda whatsoever

[innocentvillager]

If fire is scum he just went in blind and did this without consulting team

[innocentvillager]

I guess he had 30 minutes to decide to do it. No one was really posting around then so it still kinda seems like a mostly solo decision. Maybe slightly weaker than if he had only say like 5 min to do it. Whatever not a topic for today I think

[innocentvillager]

Do you guys have reservations about Freedom or something

[innocentvillager]

Why did you do this?

This felt like a towntell but maybe being naive. This happened very close in time to my other game with freedom where town self hammered.

Dude I literally got townvibes from the exact same post and is the reason I thought freedom was Town at beginning of day lmfao

But like, I don’t think it’s definitive at all upon rethink

[innocentvillager]

Do you have reservations about skitter or something?

Yeah I don’t see skitter doing like anything she’s done this game if she’s scum

Granted some of her actions are ?? With a town mindset but I could maybe see it if she’s just busy

I can go into more in depth a little later maybe

[innocentvillager]

She’s been right on basically every read so far and hasn’t flaunted it a single time

[innocentvillager]

Her read progressions are not really explained even though it’s super easy for scum!skitter to sound smart

[innocentvillager]

Her Herta push seems too flimsy and weirdly tunneled if she’s scum

I’m left going very ??? At a lot of it and not in a scum struggling to come up with reasons way

[innocentvillager]

this could be a lazy scum skitter antispew that were seeing like maybe and I definitely did consider it and still am? but it seems less likely than the alternative

[innocentvillager]

I find Val’s incessant nitpickiness throughout the game actually fairly towny, although I guess it could be playstyle

[innocentvillager]

I don’t think Pooky’s treatment of skitter has been particularly partnery either. Post that comes to mind is the post about him switching to Herta if she asks nicely, very weird way to theatre

[innocentvillager]

I liked when skitter was insistent on there being one scum in (Pooky, Unwnd) with very little reasoning and her play around that seems fairly congruent and it was also right

[innocentvillager]

Could be attempt to look good especially if he already knew what he was claiming

[innocentvillager]

Honestly makes me thing Kitty is actually town and you are whiteknighting them.

Well kitty _is_ town.

Herta what happened since here?

[innocentvillager]

I don’t really feel freedom scum for the VCA I laid out before

Can you just quote that part for me

[innocentvillager]

You’re saying if Freedom scum Herta town why is Freedom not voting Herta?

You realize Freedom is basically lurking out this day vanity sitting on Fire right? I don’t think as scum he necessarily needs to put himself on the Herta wagon…

[innocentvillager]

Maybe I’m misunderstanding you I really don’t see why the vca suggests Freedom scum Herta town can’t be a thing

[innocentvillager]

I don’t have a specific person but I can’t think of anyone who it can’t be based off of associations

[innocentvillager]

That thought was based off of like 5 hours ago I guess Val and Ydr are somewhat less likely now?

So realistically it’s like fire or skitter maybe Ydr? Val’s vote doesn’t really seem like a bus

[innocentvillager]

Yes I know, and?

[innocentvillager]

Herta 20%
Skitter 20%
Ydra 35%
Val 40%
Freedom 50%

[innocentvillager]

Maybe bump skitter a little higher

[innocentvillager]

The towniest thing Val did in this game was on D1

Very inquisitive, proactive, nitpicked a lot of things, followed up, had bold aggressive opinions, cased gera to death long after all wagons were on town. According to scum!Pooky, scum!Val is the exact polar opposite of what Val is doing here so maybe he was coached, maybe the meta is real and he’s town.

After that I don’t have much of an impression on what Val does. His individual posting seems reasonable and he raises good points. Is he scum for being like very whatever and falling off of a strong D1 start? Maybe…? But also he did have a fairly strong D1 start.

[innocentvillager]

I find Val’s incessant nitpickiness throughout the game actually fairly towny, although I guess it could be playstyle

This is another thought I have had about Val the whole game, strongly believing this to be a towntell but at the same time worrying I just have zero idea about his meta. I suppose I should meta him myself but we are low on time and I find it hard to meta people if I’m not playing the game maybe? If anyone else has color here I’d be very interested.

[innocentvillager]

@KT Tell me more on why Val is town?

@Math how does Freedom feel this game compared to his scum game? Has anyone played with town freedom?

Also, I still think that it could easily be Ydra+Skitter.

Ydra had been softing watcher ("

stares

at you until you understand"). She even softed it at IV, implying they knew they were visited by the doctor. Maybe just a coincidence?

My guess what happened if this is true is that Ydra+Skitter had to toss a coin on who does the killing since Fire had expressed suspicion on both slots the prior day. They chose wrong.

Ydra+Skitter were put in a tough place because if skitter is dead she had already softed a PR so probably would not make it alone to the end game. The gambit makes sense to try to save Skitter. Basically w/o Ydra's claim Skitter would be limmed already. And next day we would be asking Ydra to claim.

This theory isn’t totally ridiculous if you just remove the part where she softs watcher (which we got kind of caught up on, but I’m more interested in the rest of the post)

[innocentvillager]

@Val, all I have been saying is we can't afford to mis-lim the three of you, so you suggeting to line up lims 1) pisses me off because I don't like the logic 2) pisses me off because feels like you are lining up mislims.

@IV yeah second part of the theory works without the watcher, so could have been a red herring, easy for Ydra to refute. You think her ate-y stuff was fake?

I don’t have a strong opinion about her alignment from the AtE.

[innocentvillager]

Idk I kinda expect a Pooky Ydrasse Skitter scum team to like, be better, idk if that makes sense

They are all very accomplished scum players and I’m sure they would want to win fairly badly

[innocentvillager]

I would be fairly shocked if this is the angle that they take as the 3 of them together.

However, I did sus Pooky + skitter pair at the beginning when Pooky was trying harder. They all kinda fell off quickly after like middle of D1 though so is it possible they’re trying to throw me off specifically? Possible but I think it’s way too specific of a goal for such a drastic change and it would feel very arrogant to assume they are changing everything because of one thing that I did

[innocentvillager]

Toto I’ll mostly leave this one up to uou

[innocentvillager]

I think I slightly prefer killing Ydr to Val rn but who knows

Herta is right that we should begin to consolidate soin

[innocentvillager]

VOTE: Ydrasse

[innocentvillager]

We have 12 hours

[innocentvillager]

Skitter I feel like you answered everything except for the main question: why is Herta scum, other than Pooky’s supposed weird favoritism of him?

1. i don't think they're really solving
2. i feel like many of their votes are opportunistic and do not imply or bely a trajectory that i can follow
3. i don't know why this flip is like impossible to get if they're town here - why is it so hard to flip them ?
4. i think they look aligned with pooky

i can come up with reasons to townread a whole lot of other people but i'm still struggling here
and don't see a good reason to change my mind tbh

1. seems subjective but maybe
2. Opportunistic subjective but maybe. Followable trajectory is like kinda eh idk if that’s really a good alignment indicator, like for you it’s almost like a town indicator to be unfollwable
3. Well the main people that aren’t voting for Herta are me Toto and Math and I think the 3 of us are obviously town. Plus I am a fairly vocal defender, and Herta is still having a very reasonable wagon. Definitely not feeling this point rn
4. I can see why one might think that but meh

[innocentvillager]

That is

E-1 on Ydrasse

[innocentvillager]

Sigh feels kinda bad that freedom popped in to vote Ydr but oh well

[innocentvillager]

If ydrasse is scum Freedom is probably not scum

[innocentvillager]

Hi ydrasse sorry I couldn’t make up my mind for sure and Toto still wants you gone

[innocentvillager]

Any last thoughts?

[innocentvillager]

VOTE: Freedom

[innocentvillager]

what is freedom even doing if town

[innocentvillager]

Like I know he’s on vacation but bleh

[innocentvillager]

I will be awake in 8 hours

[innocentvillager]

I still don’t really regret killing freedom although I have to admit this is the first flip I was genuinely somewhat surprised by

[innocentvillager]

So I take full responsibility for this one basicially lol. Sorry town

[innocentvillager]

Also happy new year

[innocentvillager]

Sorry I'm sort of here mech discussion takes me a while to parse looks like word salad to me

[innocentvillager]

So i repeat my sentiments on ur plan with the caveat that even if it cleared me. It brings me nothing of value to follow, and I wouldn't. I don't give a rats ass if it helps you sort me. If you can't find my play town, that is ur stupid problem that i don't care to help.

This is a little extreme, getting yourself cleared clearly has value when people are sussing you and everything is paranoid because there's no clear scum target. It's not just Kitty, I'm sure other people would take solace in the fact that you were cleared (which you would've been because all scum are ninjas, apparently)

Anyway I've read a little and I'll try to decode the clusterfuck a little maybe, but this isn't my forte at all

[innocentvillager]

I think the way that Kitty has handled this day is very ++town and if he is scum my mouth is on the floor

[innocentvillager]

I'm just gonna say I kinda wanna kill Ydr. If it's not Ydr I'm stumped. But I also don't know who Ydr's partner is

[innocentvillager]

Val I want to indulge your MathBlade scum tinfoil theory but I just cant' reconcile Math/unwnd dayplay with scum behavior

Maybe if I'm desperate

[innocentvillager]

I'm definitely reconsidering Herta but I talked about why I didn't think Herta was scum yesterday

[innocentvillager]

I know my one of my vibe reads is off

[innocentvillager]

Val seems too helpful and paranoid to be scum tbh

My scumpool rn is like

Fire, Math, Herta, skitter, Ydr

[innocentvillager]

Math is his own tier, I guess

I'm not interested in going after Math today I think

[innocentvillager]

I think the way that Kitty has handled this day is very ++town and if he is scum my mouth is on the floor

Yes agreed

I'm at: yoy/val/kitty are town by play
Math is probably town
Fire ydra
Herta

I feel like we have identical reads except flip ydra and herta and slot you in the fire/herta tier

[innocentvillager]

It is necessarily to revisit everyone. I don’t think it was useless at all to reaffirm him as town.

[innocentvillager]

What are your thoughts on ydra?

[innocentvillager]

I’m getting to the point where I might just sheep you on Herta if I’m desperate

[innocentvillager]

because ur solving using setup spec.
Thats why i say ur solves shouldn't be taken seriously.

So you’re ignoring where I have two solves
One based on mech
And one based on play?

Whats your play based solve then

Val + KT

Val socially reads like a cornered scum who wants a protective gone.
Kitty didn’t know where I would protect so forced a Toto kill

This is fking wild because these are literally the two slots I feel are most towny by dayplay

[innocentvillager]

what’s your solve skitter

Who is scum with herta

[innocentvillager]

Kinda having a hard time seeing why scum-her decides to lolfake that result on me

Pedit indeed

I don’t get why town her fakes a guilty.

And she did whether she says that’s what it is or not.

I’m kinda with math on this one like what is she gonna say “I checked IV and he’s town”?

[innocentvillager]

skitter what are you gonna do if I sheep you on Herta and you’re wrong?

[innocentvillager]

Ydra I’m not following why any of what you said about Val makes him scum?

[innocentvillager]

Be very sad and rethink my entire existance, but i don't think we live in that universe

I don't know who the third is rn
But i think it's in {fire math ydra}

I'm not following the point abt town her faking a guilty ?

Kitty faked a guilty on fire. I don’t see why town kitty does that.

First of all Kitty is He

Second I was talking about Ydra which is why I was confused by that

[innocentvillager]

So apparently I am not on the same page as math, sorry for the confusion skit.

But I don’t see why scum Ydra can’t say she checked you. What was she supposed to do?

[innocentvillager]

Everyone was sheeping iv and toto. I'm the one who said we were running out of time to get something done. Would you rather we not eliminate anyone yesterday? I mean I fought against the freedom lim until it was apparent that was the only one that was going to go.

You fought against the freedom lim yesterday…? I literally don’t remember anyone fighting against the freedom lim. The biggest objections were just “there were scummier slots to get”

[innocentvillager]

i'll try to rexplain

fmpov val has been pushing a theory that isn't actually... based a lot in wha i've done this game/actions, its a theory that feels like is built entirely around (at least related to me) the theory that i was a wolf softing and then i had a partner replace in and i for some reason decided i would like, just not do anything with my posts/"softs" whe n that was the meat of what i had done this game
it doesn't make sense to me that someone would think that is like... a rational plan and believe it?
(admitting i need to read more bfore i say this) from memory it doesnt feel like val was interested in my actual words/actions of the game and more pushing that narrative

and thne when val gets trapped up in a 1v1 he gets like, weirdly emotional about it almost pissy i guess even though that word is like. gross idk what else to say, agitated, throws down the self vote ate mode that i dont get the motivations for really because its not like he should be dead to rights cannot recover or whatever it feels more like a reaction that a wolf has imo trying to deflect and wifom out of it

is just a strange way he's processing the game and reacting, idk if this is supposed to be something im townreading for being too paranoid to make sense as a wolf but im not

If you’re going from “weird emotional reaction that I cannot understand” to “scum” I would disagree with that

I agree with most of what you’re saying about Val except for the leap to he is scum for all that

Like to me it could just be an town irrational emotional reaction?

[innocentvillager]

Val’s play gives me strong Billy Pilgrim VT vibes from mini normal 2201

I was scum but yeah

Too lazy to link it

[innocentvillager]

like i get you’re saying it’s irrational but like ... why
val doesn’t seem the type to act like this

I think it’s hard for scum to argue fervently with convoluted logic for their own elim when there is no real scum motivation to other than just AtE for the sake of it when he’s not really in danger of dying and scum are doing somewhat ok

[innocentvillager]

I think town do all sorts of things that are hard to understand and it’s more a function of town range being more expansive than scumrange for 95% of people

[innocentvillager]

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=84069

Jk it’s 2160 not 2201

[innocentvillager]

Idk can you tell us?

[innocentvillager]

Maybe irrational to us but rational to you

It’s really really difficult for me to imagine a world where arguing for your own elim is +town

Just like absurdly hard

I don’t think your world qualifies, but you seem to believe it through your convoluted logic. To me, that is very +town at least. I don’t want to dismiss it as irrational, sorry if you feel offended, I don’t doubt that you believe it is sound to you.

[innocentvillager]

I think the world where you are scum here is like, for whatever reason you are trying super hard to emulate how town you would play this, and you think this is how town you would about this spot so you’re doing it, with the upshot that maybe the AtE looks towny