Mini Normal 2323 [There is an Inventor] | FIN

[Black]

Sorry, I've been meaning to put a bit more effort into the game today and do some serious reading and ISO diving, but my time management skills and my decision making suck and I kinda have to sleep right now. But tomorrow is Saturday so I'll be definitely able to do that

From reading the last page only I wanna VOTE: dave

Do you townread Naerys?

Dragon scratch this question. I looked over your iso and it's pretty clear she's one of your top townreads. Can you explain why you townread her in depth?

[Black]

Ok but your solvable behavior, for me, is when you get emotional over something. I don't want to induce that intentionally over a game

Can you elaborate on this? I've seen Gamma get emotional as scum and I've also seen her act really nonchalant as scum. I think you're probably better at reading her than I am so I'm curious what you think

[Black]

Won't be around later, I'm fine with doing this, L-1 by my count.

VOTE: NAERYS

Do you think I'm bussing Naerys?

[Black]

It feels fruitless to try to explain how it works

Well I appreciate you trying anyway

I think I understand what you mean

[Black]

You already said you scumread me, and you mentioned you didn't want to push the person due to the game state and I think you're referring to a few people townreading me

What I don't understand is if you think I'm scum and you're town then why would you not push me? You seem content with just hopping on the Naerys wagon instead

Out of those wagons, I think she is the most likely to flip scum, and that her flip provides the most information.

What has pinged you about Naerys?

Katsuki I don't think you ever answered this

[Black]

Are you sure it's not the voices in your PT

[Black]

I would say we should wait for last reads or something but I feel like 1055 was Naerys giving up

[Black]

[Black]

First

[Black]

I don't think it's likely that all 3 scum were on the Naerys wagon

Which means there's at least one scum in {Gamma, Thomith, Jackson, Dragon}

[Black]

I don't think the wagon was all that bad. Naerys was pretty scummy imo. I do think there's probably one scum on it. Maybe two

[Black]

I don't think it's likely that all 3 scum were on the Naerys wagon

Which means there's at least one scum in {Gamma, Thomith, Jackson, Dragon}

Why aren't you talking about people

on

the wagon? Or is that because you're on it hehe

I'm thinking about them but that wasn't my first thought. I feel like it made sense to vote Naerys there

[Black]

I also townread most of the people on the wagon but my already weak confidence is a little shaken

[Black]

Tbh I don't really want to lead a wagon today. I kinda just want to sheep one of my top townreads

[Black]

Just a quick question to understand you better, and this is not meant to get under your skin or to shade you in any way, but do you tend to town-read people easier if they're agreeing with you? The opposite being the case too for disagreeing with you.

Not particularly but I can be pocketed sometimes

[Black]

I do think I naturally townread people that show a similar thought process as me but I have learned to check that bias

[Black]

I feel Naerys’ claim was towny
I was trying to figure out how to put that into rhyme when the wagon got blitzed

I don't really like this post

There were like 3 days between Naerys's claim and her wagon popping off

[Black]

I'm always on a see-saw when it comes to reading Black and it's painful, there's things they do that I consider scummy as hell but then they seem to make me doubt that read or they satisfy the logical part of my brain and this keeps happening.

I'm an enigma

I also townread most of the people on the wagon but my already weak confidence is a little shaken

Here have a song that was stuck in my head this weekend.

UGH KIM CHAEWON IS BAE. SHE IS LIFE

[Black]

dave is actually a player I probably trust more out of the votes on Naerys

Same

I feel lost so ima sheep a town read

VOTE: CCS

which townread was it? if it was black you could join us now

*and if its gamma emerald ill sheep you on ssbm_kyouko

Knowing now that Naerys was town, I dislike these posts more than I already did.
VOTE: cCS

I think Snivy is scummy for other reasons but I don't really think recruiting others to his cause is all that scummy

[Black]

I feel Naerys’ claim was towny
I was trying to figure out how to put that into rhyme when the wagon got blitzed

I don't really like this post

There were like 3 days between Naerys's claim and her wagon popping off

I feel like Naerys kind of resigned herself to being faded immediately after claiming though.

I also don't think Gamma was saying that Naerys got blitz wagoned because of the claim, so I'm not sure of the relevancy?

I didn't like Gamma's post because to me it felt like she was trying to justify not being on the Naerys wagon after I suggested there was at least one scum off the wagon. I didn't like the reasoning because Gamma thought Naerys was town for most of D1 yet she didn't do anything to combat the wagon from growing. Saying "I thought the claim was townie but I didn't say anything because I couldn't figure out a rhyme for it" pings me

dave is actually a player I probably trust more out of the votes on Naerys

Same

I feel lost so ima sheep a town read

VOTE: CCS

which townread was it? if it was black you could join us now

*and if its gamma emerald ill sheep you on ssbm_kyouko

Knowing now that Naerys was town, I dislike these posts more than I already did.
VOTE: cCS

I think Snivy is scummy for other reasons but I don't really think recruiting others to his cause is all that scummy

It is when he is namedropping others as reasons to join the cause.

Feels like he could be doing that so you or Gamma took the fall if Naerys/Kyouko flipped town? That might be tinfoil tbh though, just got a weird vibe from those posts.

He name dropped Gamma and I because you said you wanted sheep a townread and he wasn't sure which townread you were sheeping. Or at least that's how I'm seeing it

I actually think the bluntness of it and how up front he was about trying to form a wagon with you is probably +town for him

[Black]

I did ISO kitty during the night before I got bored, and while I do think tonally they're scummy I do think I've been treating them unfairly

Kitty was town from post 1

Who do you think is scum? I want to sheep you

[Black]

Just a quick question to understand you better, and this is not meant to get under your skin or to shade you in any way, but do you tend to town-read people easier if they're agreeing with you? The opposite being the case too for disagreeing with you.

This is not aimed at me, but ngl I feel this is a subconscious bias for me. I try to fight it, and if someone just mildly scumreads me it doesn't affect my read of them, but when someone is relentlessly trying to get me hanged I can't really townread them much.

Yeah it's a bias for me as well, I just figured perhaps if Black also is affected by this it could explain some of her motivations that I'm seeing but assuming her town if it isn't then perhaps it's affecting her more than she realises, or just pure coincidence?

What exactly are you seeing? I've scumread people that agree with me/townread me and I've townread people that disagree with me/scumread me. I'm familiar with the bias but I'd like to think it doesn't affect me too much

[Black]

I try to look at the reasons for why people do what they do

In your case I didn't think your scumread on me made much sense but that is only a small part of why I think you could be scum

In Naerys's case, she started dropping in my reads before she ever disagreed with me

I do think it's more of a case by case basis and there are usually other factors involved in the read, but yeah I think someone scumreading me for what I consider to be bad reasons is going to make me raise an eyebrow. But I also get suspicious of people agreeing with me too much, so it really just depends on context and other things

[Black]

It does feel like you're genuinely trying to sort me here and I think that's +town for you

[Black]

I try to look at the reasons for why people do what they do

In your case I didn't think your scumread on me made much sense but that is only a small part of why I think you could be scum

In Naerys's case, she started dropping in my reads before she ever disagreed with me

I do think it's more of a case by case basis and there are usually other factors involved in the read, but yeah I think someone scumreading me for what I consider to be bad reasons is going to make me raise an eyebrow. But I also get suspicious of people agreeing with me too much, so it really just depends on context and other things

So your read on me didn't necessarily drop, more so you scum-read naerys

more

so you pivoted to them?

That's a good way to put it

I think I want to give my Jackson read more time to develop, and I would rather do this over CCS

This read more to me like you dropped the read somewhat more than you wanting to pivot to somebody else because they're scummier, which is what I assume you meant by your response to me just now

Nah I didn't drop the read but I realized I needed to give it more time in the oven

[Black]

VOTE: Dragon

e-1

[Black]

UNVOTE:

[Black]

So nothing of value, noted.

I'm not vibing with this shade at all

I don't think someone that is fine with ending the day in less than 24 hours is actually trying to solve the game

VOTE: Gamma

[Black]

Actually I think I wanna vote Dragon. But not sure if I want him at e-1 yet. I want more discussions today.

What do you want to discuss?

That the day shouldn't end in less than 24 hours

I'm curious about this take though. I've seen you argue in recent town games of yours that people will get apathetic unless we hammer and have a quick game. Why are you suddenly in the camp of wanting to let things play out?

[Black]

VOTE: kyouko
While I think Dragon is a fine place to go,
I want to vote somewhere less covered, that being kyouko
honestly kyouko fits the bill of the scum I voted in the past rhyming game
since I regard both slot's content involving me as lame

I don't think it's likely that all 3 scum were on the Naerys wagon

Which means there's at least one scum in {Gamma, Thomith, Jackson, Dragon}

Alternatively: that wagon was god-awful and we should kill on it.
VOTE: Camel
Still don’t trust you.

VOTE: Dragon

This progression is awful

Why are you voting outside of the wagon if you think we should fade on it? Wouldn't it make more sense for you to vote kyouko here?

[Black]

Skimming your iso Gamma I don't think you've even explained your scumread on Dragon. Can you go into that?

[Black]

I think Gamma's reads are fake

There's no reason she would post 927 and then come into today voting CCS and Dragon

There's also no reason to post 1099 and then try to fade off the wagon in less than 24 hours from Daystart

This slot is scum at worst, anti-town at best

[Black]

UNVOTE:

But why

I don't want the day to end

I put Dragon at e-1 for two reasons and neither of them are viable if you just quickhammer

[Black]

My opinion on kyouko has changed since 927

And why did your opinion on fading on the wagon change? Because to me it looks like you just said that because

you

were off the wagon and wanted to turn the attention to people on it

[Black]

Are you going to explain your Dragon SR?

[Black]

Okay. I'm not going to try and tip toe around this anymore.

Kyouko do you have a guilty on dragon or no?

Hmm. I wasn't thinking this at all

[Black]

VOTE: Hu Tao

This is a bad vote. She's town

[Black]

I'm sus of katsuki, kyouko, Dragon, gamma and Camel.

Not in any order. I wouldn't be surprised if at least 2 scum is in there.

Camel > Dragon today imo.

But I wouldn't hate a dragon vote

Has your read on Gamma changed?

[Black]

{Gamma, Thomith, Jackson, Dragon}

I want to fade in this group

[Black]

{Gamma, Thomith, Jackson, Dragon}

I want to fade in this group

Why has your read on me changed?
Still the Jackson thing from yesterday?

These 4 were off the Naerys wagon and I don't think the entire scum team was on that wagon

Aside from that though I'm having a similar problem that I had in Micro Normal 1094. Some of your posts just gut ping me the wrong way

[Black]

{Gamma, Thomith, Jackson, Dragon}

I want to fade in this group

Okay. It's gamma or Dragon then. Do you believe gamma when she says she wanted to roleswap?

I don't. It sounds like something scum would say to try and seem townie, just like 1108

[Black]

I still think you wanting to “discuss” felt very disingenuous.

Am I wrong? You are not really a person who likes to go into major detail from what I know. As such you wanting “more time to discuss” doesn’t really feel like it’s your style. My theory is you’re covering for Dragon here so he can slip away, I am keenly aware that giving scum more time is a bad idea.

Why do you scumread Dragon? For the millionth time

[Black]

I still think you wanting to “discuss” felt very disingenuous.

Am I wrong? You are not really a person who likes to go into major detail from what I know. As such you wanting “more time to discuss” doesn’t really feel like it’s your style. My theory is you’re covering for Dragon here so he can slip away, I am keenly aware that giving scum more time is a bad idea.

I'm a changed woman. I've seen that me not explaining things in detail has caused issues. So I am trying to improve on that.

I 100% believe this after Mini Normal 2319. Though I still take full credit for us losing that game. My tunnel was awful regardless of how little you explained yourself

[Black]

{Gamma, Thomith, Jackson, Dragon}

I want to fade in this group

Why has your read on me changed?
Still the Jackson thing from yesterday?

These 4 were off the Naerys wagon and I don't think the entire scum team was on that wagon

Aside from that though I'm having a similar problem that I had in Micro Normal 1094. Some of your posts just gut ping me the wrong way

Issue with your pool is, unless one or less scum was on Naerys, it is still statistically better to look at those on the wagon.

The issue with this statement is we don't know if one or two scum were on the wagon, so it's statistically better to look off the wagon

[Black]

There's either two scum in {Kitty, CCS, dave, kyouko, Kat, Hu} or two scum in {Gamma, Thomith, Jackson, Dragon}

I like my chances with the second group

[Black]

Ok but your solvable behavior, for me, is when you get emotional over something. I don't want to induce that intentionally over a game

Can you elaborate on this? I've seen Gamma get emotional as scum and I've also seen her act really nonchalant as scum. I think you're probably better at reading her than I am so I'm curious what you think

The easiest way to explain is that Gamma as town is at 100% cause to reaction ratio. As scum she either overdoes it or isnt fully in it and is more at either 90% or 110% ratio. Maybe even 95/105. The difference is small and hard to quantify. I dont know how I know when I know, I just do. It feels fruitless to try to explain how it works

And it's also worth noting I've found that due to.my frequent confbiasing I have better success letting Gamma alone for a while so when I do move to read her my read is not prejudiced.

Kyouko I thought you didn't have a strong Gamma read yet? Are you saying you townread her now?

[Black]

VOTE: kyouko
While I think Dragon is a fine place to go,
I want to vote somewhere less covered, that being kyouko
honestly kyouko fits the bill of the scum I voted in the past rhyming game
since I regard both slot's content involving me as lame

I don't think it's likely that all 3 scum were on the Naerys wagon

Which means there's at least one scum in {Gamma, Thomith, Jackson, Dragon}

Alternatively: that wagon was god-awful and we should kill on it.
VOTE: Camel
Still don’t trust you.

VOTE: Dragon

This progression is awful

Why are you voting outside of the wagon if you think we should fade on it? Wouldn't it make more sense for you to vote kyouko here?

Agreed

VOTE: Gamma

If you're town here Gamma is never scum - what do you think of Thomith and JV?

I don't like kyouko trying to get Dragon away from the Gamma wagon, especially considering she thinks Dragon is scum?

Gamma/kyouko is a possible pair

[Black]

Gamma/kyouko would make sense as far as the wagon goes. One off, one on

[Black]

There's either two scum in {Kitty, CCS, dave, kyouko, Kat, Hu} or two scum in {Gamma, Thomith, Jackson, Dragon}

I like my chances with the second group

It's gamma and Dragon. My gut is telling me kyouko is scum though. But I could be wrong on that cause I don't see all 3 of them scum together

Yeah I'm feeling what you are feeling on kyouko. I think Gamma makes more sense as a partner than Dragon though

[Black]

I still think you wanting to “discuss” felt very disingenuous.

Am I wrong? You are not really a person who likes to go into major detail from what I know. As such you wanting “more time to discuss” doesn’t really feel like it’s your style. My theory is you’re covering for Dragon here so he can slip away, I am keenly aware that giving scum more time is a bad idea.

I'm a changed woman. I've seen that me not explaining things in detail has caused issues. So I am trying to improve on that.

I 100% believe this after Mini Normal 2319. Though I still take full credit for us losing that game. My tunnel was awful regardless of how little you explained yourself

It's okay bestie. I'm also responsible for that loss too.

<333

[Black]

{Gamma, Thomith, Jackson, Dragon}
The issue I have here is I think I'm townreading everyone in this list right now.

Why do you townread Gamma?

[Black]

{Gamma, Thomith, Jackson, Dragon}

I want to fade in this group

Why has your read on me changed?
Still the Jackson thing from yesterday?

These 4 were off the Naerys wagon and I don't think the entire scum team was on that wagon

Aside from that though I'm having a similar problem that I had in Micro Normal 1094. Some of your posts just gut ping me the wrong way

He was town there though

I know, which is why I have him closer to null than a full on scumread. Out of the 4 on the list he's either my 3rd or 4th preference to fade today

[Black]

@kyouko I would like an answer to 1267 whenever you get the chance

[Black]

I think Dragon is the vote today. Because if he's scum we turbo vote gamma. And kyouko is pretty lock town if gamma is also scum.

Why can't gamma and kyouko be scum together?

[Black]

I think Dragon is the vote today. Because if he's scum we turbo vote gamma. And kyouko is pretty lock town if gamma is also scum.

Why can't gamma and kyouko be scum together?

If Dragon is scum I think gamma thought kyouko had a guilty on her partner.

Oh I see, you are assuming Dragon is scum here

If Dragon is town do you think kyouko/gamma has any equity?

[Black]

{Gamma, Thomith, Jackson, Dragon}
The issue I have here is I think I'm townreading everyone in this list right now.

Why do you townread Gamma?

Even with the rhyming thing, it felt like she was trying to solve Day 1, part of me can see it deciding not to defend Naerys' claim because of not knowing how to make things rhyme (like idk how to really explain this other than something I could just see Gamma doing). I feel like scum!Gamma wouldn't mention anything about roleswapping with Kyouko (unless they are scum together and planned this), because from what I saw of Scum!Gamma in the 09:12 Open was that she prefered to almost be in the background.
I also do trust Kyouko's ability to read Gamma due to the amount of times she has done it successfully, however there is of course a world where they are scum together.

The roleswapping comment was completely LAMIST and it isn't the first time Gamma has tried the LAMIST approach

I've also seen scum!Gamma

not

take a background role in the game, so that's probably NAI

As far as kyouko's ability to read Gamma...we still haven't even gotten confirmation that kyouko townreads Gamma. The last we heard, kyouko was trying to disengage from Gamma so she could read her better

[Black]

I could see Gamma/Kyo. I felt it was really weird Kyo didn't have a read on Gamma yesterday. I do feel something doesn't fully add up though woth how hard Kyo is TRing Gamma - I'm not sure wolf!Kyo is actually likely to TR a partner that heavily.

I may have missed it but where is the evidence that kyouko hard townreads Gamma?

[Black]

Can we get more votes on Gamma

[Black]

Gamma doesn't assume I have a guilty if she knows you're town, which she would know if she were scum and you were town. Therefore if you are town, she can't be scum. I'm not as sure on this as I am on how I read Gamma but I'm pretty sure this is the way she would think

I don't think this is true. Gamma would still have to play it out like a townie would, and she was adamant about wanting to quickfade and end the day. If Dragon flipped town then she could just use the excuse that she thought you had a guilty. I think this could come from either town!Gamma or scum!Gamma

[Black]

frfr

[Black]

I think the whole scenario makes more sense if Gamma/Dragon are both scum now that I'm thinking about it. That would also explain why Gamma was like "I could do Dragon but I'd rather do kyouko"

[Black]

My thoughts are all over the place

[Black]

I think the whole scenario makes more sense if Gamma/Dragon are both scum now that I'm thinking about it. That would also explain why Gamma was like "I could do Dragon but I'd rather do kyouko"

To elaborate on this, if Gamma thinks kyouko got a guilty on her scumbuddy, she would likely jump on the wagon and try to bus early while simultaneously shading people that didn't want to vote Dragon and end the day like she did with me/Hu

[Black]

{Gamma, Thomith, Jackson, Dragon}
The issue I have here is I think I'm townreading everyone in this list right now.

Glad you are townreading yourself but seriously why do you tr dragon?

Why do you SR me?

Your play reminds me of that last game you were scum

Can you elaborate?

I wish I could. When you're town you just have a different energy that I'm not seeing here.

I think I'm talking myself into a Dragon vote if you would rather do that over Gamma

[Black]

Well majority seems to think there is a scum in kyouko/gamma/Dragon.

Possibly two

Now the question is, which players do you think believe in that latter statement?

Did you really read 100 posts in 2 minutes and this was the only thing you wanted to comment on?

[Black]

My opinion on kyouko has changed since 927

What were the factors that led you to reverse your read on her

[Black]

VOTE: Dragon

I think I want to do this

That's e-2 but I would really appreciate if we didn't hammer right away. We have a few players that haven't even talked today

[Black]

You already said you scumread me, and you mentioned you didn't want to push the person due to the game state and I think you're referring to a few people townreading me

What I don't understand is if you think I'm scum and you're town then why would you not push me? You seem content with just hopping on the Naerys wagon instead

Out of those wagons, I think she is the most likely to flip scum, and that her flip provides the most information.

Where is all this information you were supposed to gain from the Naerys flip?

[Black]

Hi Dann!

[Black]

I think Katsuki is scummy

Mainly it seems like she has zero interest in convincing others that her scumreads are scum. I've been her strongest scumread for pretty much the entire game but she hasn't pushed me at all. She hasn't even questioned anyone else's townreads on me. It doesn't really feel like her scumread is as strong as she says it is. I think it could be a fake read

She didn't seem to have any issue with the Dragon wagon falling apart D1 despite comments like this:

I still think that Dragon is most likely to flip scum out of the leading nom candidates based off of a number of factors. I also have a sneaking suspicion that there's a good chance he is the strongest PR the wolves have.

I still think that Dragon is most likely to flip scum out of the leading nom candidates based off of a number of factors. I also have a sneaking suspicion that there's a good chance he is the strongest PR the wolves have.

Her confidence in these reads doesn't match her actions and reactions to things. She should be more concerned about people's townreads on me if she's sure I'm scum, and she should have fought more to keep the Dragon wagon going if she was of the belief that he was the best fade. Instead she just kinda faded into non-existence

She's not fighting for what she believes in and that makes me think she doesn't really believe in these things. She's just playing from the background

[Black]

Whoops. One of those quotes should be:

I am still of the opinion that Dragon has a high probability to flip scum here, and provides us the most information pertaining to the alignment of other players to crack this game wide open.

[Black]

is this a sudden thought black or something that has been stewing for a while

I've been going back and forth on her slot, but this particular thought has been stewing awhile. I called her out on her lack of action towards me quite a bit D1

[Black]

is this a sudden thought black or something that has been stewing for a while

I've been going back and forth on her slot, but this particular thought has been stewing awhile. I called her out on her lack of action towards me quite a bit D1

so like why the timing on supporting the wagon on me at the same time? the vibe I'm getting is that I'm like katsuki's pet scum read and i don't understand why you're moving to want to support that at the same time as casing a katsuki!scum world

do you have an independent read on my slot or think that we're partnered or anything

Yeah I have a tinfoil that she's trying to bus you in order to turbolim me

Your focus on this and you asking this question makes me want to believe it even more

[Black]

to be blunt, i am worried that 1385 followed to soon after 1361 means you are preparing to throw katsuki under the bus for my elimination

I think you're more likely to be scum than her but yeah I think you could definitely be partnered

[Black]

Your focus on this and you asking this question makes me want to believe it even more

yes i am focused on how people are playing around my wagon

How does my read on Katsuki have anything to do with your wagon (before I told you I think you're scum together)

[Black]

Sounds like a great trade for town, especially if I'm supplying the wolf nom first!

Here, I decorated this tinfoil hat just for you!

I look forward to flipping your scumbuddy. Maybe then you will FINALLY push your top scumread

[Black]

i would just generally expect someone who claims to want my elimination to be spending their energies talking about why i am scum

(maybe you have in recent pages and I haven't read that yet)

instead you kind of put a weak vote on me and then spent a bunch of words talking about why katsuki is scum

it's a weird actions don't match your words scenario

I mean if you haven't read then why are you even saying this? Shade for the sake of it while I am in the middle of nailing two scum together?

I'm pretty confident that there was scum off the Naerys wagon which has led me to want to fade within {Gamma, you, Thomith, Jackson}

Currently I think you are the most likely to flip scum out of this group

[Black]

Sounds like a great trade for town, especially if I'm supplying the wolf nom first!

Here, I decorated this tinfoil hat just for you!

I look forward to flipping your scumbuddy. Maybe then you will FINALLY push your top scumread

Thanks, me too!

It also amuses me that you're just suddenly coming out with the Katsuki/Dragon scumlinks now, on the cusp of a Dragon scumflip.

I guess I spent the entire second half of D1 just powertunneling my buddy while simultaneously eliminating potential misnom options when I could have joined the CCS push instead.

Cute WIFOM, but you're wrong. You didn't powertunnel him. Your push on him was actually very weak, and you seemed perfectly content with everyone hopping off his wagon. Just like you seem perfectly content with a bunch of people townreading me. Your reads aren't real

[Black]

I mean if you haven't read then why are you even saying this? Shade for the sake of it while I am in the middle of nailing two scum together?

I think it is fair to ask about that particular bit of timing even though I haven't read all 50 pages yet

you're one of the slots in this game I actually have the most confidence in getting to a solid read on so apologies but my focus is kind of going to you first

You can focus me, I just hope you understand why it makes me even more paranoid that I'm right about you

[Black]

At this point I'm willing to leave Dannflor alive to let him cook

Can we fade Katsuki instead? I don't think her reads are real

VOTE: Katsuki

[Black]

Sounds like a great trade for town, especially if I'm supplying the wolf nom first!

Here, I decorated this tinfoil hat just for you!

I look forward to flipping your scumbuddy. Maybe then you will FINALLY push your top scumread

Are you just gonna sit around and not engage with Dannflor's posts at all? Y'know, the guy you presumably think is lockscum?

[Black]

At this point I'm willing to leave Dannflor alive to let him cook

Can we fade Katsuki instead? I don't think her reads are real

VOTE: Katsuki

Ahh the classic scum tactic of

"X is scum powerbussing their partner Y, lets flip X first!"

. I'd be rich if I got paid every time scum tried this on me.

I don't think it makes sense for me to abandon Dann's wagon here if I'm scum with him. I think it makes me look a lot worse. But go off Queen

[Black]

Katsuki only responding to my stuff and basically ignoring Dann completely is laughable

[Black]

Are you just gonna sit around and not engage with Dannflor's posts at all? Y'know, the guy you presumably think is lockscum?

Why should I be engaging with the slot I think is lockscum whom I already have my vote on?

You should be pointing out stuff he's saying that is scummy because you should be interested in convincing others that you're right about him. You're not interested in this because your read is fake. It's too much effort for scum!you to case your scumreads so instead you just hang out in the background and pop in to shade people

[Black]

@Black

do you always feel the need to justify swapping votes?

Not always but I do like to share my thought process, unless I'm keeping it hidden for the purpose of reading a reaction

[Black]

Her arguments make 0 sense though. Just because I may hypothetically have a scumread on Black, doesn't mean it's protown for me to thus question each and every single player why they are townreading Black. That's not even a natural town thought to have in the first place, given that it's a horrendously ineffective way to scumhunt since more of those players are bound to be town than scum from a pure numbers perspective, and secondly just because people may have wrong reads misreading my scumread, so what? Does that make them all scum?

This doesn't make any sense. I've never met someone who is not interested in why people townread their #1 scumread. If you are town then this is just a stubborn way to play. You're so convinced you're right about your page 5 gut read that you aren't even willing to listen to why other people that have way more experience playing with me townread me. You're supposed to work with other people to try to solve the game, not tunnel endlessly and refuse to cooperate with anyone

I don't think this type of behavior comes from town. I haven't seen a townie do what you're doing and quite frankly I'm getting annoyed by your bullshit

[Black]

Gonna take a step back and probably not engage with Katsuki at all for awhile

More votes on her please. She's either scum or a detriment to the town

[Black]

VOTE: jackson virgo

would rather kill a slot that has been sitting back and letting black / katsuki do all the work

i also found this funny coming from your slot but i guess i can't blame you for that either

if dragoneater wasn't replaced for whatever reason i would vote him

If you think Dragon is scum then you should vote for him

This just feels like an excuse not to

[Black]

You should be pointing out stuff he's saying that is scummy because you should be interested in convincing others that you're right about him. You're not interested in this because your read is fake. It's too much effort for scum!you to case your scumreads so instead you just hang out in the background and pop in to shade people

I don't think today is ending in anything other than a DE nom. I think I've painted a large enough target on my back as a primary suspect in the unlikely event of a DE townflip.

What else are you going to try and discredit me with next?

Assuming both are wolves, do you genuinely believe scum!black would make themselves look even worse to push you rather than just committing to the bus? I feel that's diminishing Black's skills pretty substantially to not even humour the idea that them doing this would be strange but with that being said I do think both have scum equity with pretty differing amounts but regardless if Black is a wolf, I don't think it's very likely at all Dragon is a wolf and vice versa.

Dude, there's no point in trying with her. She's either the most tunneled and over confident town player I've met or she's scum. Either way you're not going to get anything out of this line of questioning

[Black]

VOTE: Dannflor

I think that's e-1

[Black]

You're so convinced you're right about your page 5 gut read

Why are you deciding to just discredit what she's believing here? It's quite obvious that it's beyond just a page 5 gut read this is almost a strawman.

Because I'm annoyed that she has been shading me the entire fucking game and has not once explained why she thinks I'm scum other than weak ass associations with people

I hate the way she's playing the game if she's town. I really hope she's scum

[Black]

UNVOTE: Kitty
VOTE: Dannflor

hammer

???

[Black]

oh my god black

At this point I just want to flip everyone Katsuki thinks is scum so I can laugh about it later if she's town and we lose

[Black]

Context: I was already on Dragon

I wanted to do a pro gamer strat I saw in the past :C

Oh jk

I post without thinking a lot

[Black]

oh my god black

At this point I just want to flip everyone Katsuki thinks is scum so I can laugh about it later if she's town and we lose

and if she's scum voting town then?

Then hopefully players will wake up and help me push her

[Black]

oh my god black

At this point I just want to flip everyone Katsuki thinks is scum so I can laugh about it later if she's town and we lose

Do you not think Dragon is wolf?

I do but I would be lying if I said a small part of me doesn't hope he's town so Katsuki will be wrong for the third time this game

[Black]

Yeah yeah, you think I'm scum, we get it

[Black]

I mean part of it is that I had been planning to do a deeper dive into her ISO this game to be doubly sure but I haven't had the time to because I've been engaging her

This is such bullshit

You've barely engaged with me all game. I've had to force these interactions out of you. You've had plenty of time to ISO dive me

[Black]

I'm kinda jus ttrying to type as fast as I can since it seems like we have a hammer.

I think you've been quite intentional about how you've played this game with how you structure your posts and what you're looking to achieve with your posts this game compared to your other town games.

I think your meta read is garbage and if you're town then I'll be looking forward to adding you to the list of people that have tried to meta read me and failed miserably

[Black]

Black, how confident is your read that Katsuki is wolf?

I'm not very confident tbh

My words may suggest otherwise sometimes but if there's one thing you should know about me it's that my reads change all the time

This is another reason why Katsuki's play is so odd and frustrating to me. Her reads are completely static and there is no reconsidering going on with them

[Black]

This is probably a really stupid question to ask, but are you good as wolf black? Can you usually squeeze out of holes

I like to think that I am

[Black]

Anyway I'm starting to cross a personal line I've set for myself where I don't get super frustrated at the game, so I'm going to take a deep breath and just chill

[Black]

I don't really think I'm overjustifying anything

I worry about being townread when I'm town because I don't like getting incorrectly pushed. I think it's one of town's duties to be found as town and I act accordingly. Maybe that's more evident in some town games and not others

[Black]

I mean part of it is that I had been planning to do a deeper dive into her ISO this game to be doubly sure but I haven't had the time to because I've been engaging her

This is such bullshit

You've barely engaged with me all game. I've had to force these interactions out of you. You've had plenty of time to ISO dive me

You've been tying up pretty much all my time in the past hour or two.

You don't have to respond. You could have just handwaved me like you've done for most of the game

Anyway I'm sorry for getting heated. Sometimes it's hard for me to control my frustrations

I'll be looking forward to the ISO dive

[Black]

I don't like this feeling

What is your read on Katsuki?

[Black]

It boils down to her job being to look town as oppose to find scum.

See this is my main problem with Black at the moment, and it's hurting my head quite a lot they are somehow are balancing a fine line between what I consider scummy, and then justifying it in a way that works well and it keeps going back and forth. Usually it's one way or another in my reads but they're like constantly dead on that line wobbling between the two and I'm unable to really see if that's just them as Town (the game I was reading them last, just closed I had a pretty substantial scum-read on them so this game has to be different somehow) or they're scum that's really good at squeezing out of things which is why I asked them directly which again is probably stupid but I really want this out of my head. I feel like I'm getting played?

If it helps at all, I often times seem scummy when I'm town. It's a trend with me

[Black]

I don't like this feeling

What is your read on Katsuki?

Town

You write paragraphs all game, surely you can give me more than this. What do you townread about her?

[Black]

Just look at her tactics to try and convince the game that my read on her is bad. What need is there for townBlack to do this when I'm not even pushing for her nom today, when I've been pretty clear that I want her flipped after a dragondann scumflip?

I do this as town in every single game I play. When someone has a bad read on me I call them out on it. If you looked over my games you should know this

[Black]

And part of the reason I brought up your bad read was because I thought you were scum and the read was fake

I'm not just calling your read bad so people will think I'm town. I wanted to show them that you're scum

[Black]

Anyway I'm starting to cross a personal line I've set for myself where I don't get super frustrated at the game, so I'm going to take a deep breath and just chill

I will say that this is just a game and that hopefully we can all enjoy ourselves, or at least not have a bad time from playing. Nothing is personal.

<3

Yeah my bad. I recognize that I probably made it not enjoyable for a little bit there

[Black]

Just look at her tactics to try and convince the game that my read on her is bad. What need is there for townBlack to do this when I'm not even pushing for her nom today, when I've been pretty clear that I want her flipped after a dragondann scumflip?

I do this as town in every single game I play. When someone has a bad read on me I call them out on it. If you looked over my games you should know this

We can revisit this post-dragondann flip.

Is there any reason why you don't want to talk about it now? Like this kinda ties into what I was saying about you not reconsidering your reads. I tell you that I do this as town and instead of thinking "hmm maybe she does" you just handwave me

[Black]

@Jackson, I care about how people read me when I'm town so I try to make my thought process as apparent as possible. I feel like a failure when I'm scumread as town and I end up getting caught up in those scumreads and lose focus in solving the game. It's a flaw I have

[Black]

UNVOTE:

Cold feet

And yeah I know this is going to look awful if Dann ends up being scum but whatever

[Black]

@Jackson, I care about how people read me when I'm town so I try to make my thought process as apparent as possible. I feel like a failure when I'm scumread as town and I end up getting caught up in those scumreads and lose focus in solving the game. It's a flaw I have

Alright, I'll ask you directly again. What's the difference between your swap from myself to naerys, and the swap from Dann to Katsuki?

There were a lot more emotions involved in my Katsuki vote

[Black]

And yeah I know this is going to look awful if Dann ends up being scum but whatever

Ironically stating this looks worse

I don't really care. I'm not convinced Dann is scum

[Black]

Why are you getting cold feet on Dann?

A few reasons

Some of the comments he made to me made me doubt my read there. I'm on mobile but I can grab them after I post this

Part of the reason I wanted to push Dann through was because I thought he was partnered with Katsuki, but I'm actually starting to feel like Kat might be town, so the whole "bus Dann to misfade me" tinfoil has died down a little

I also think Dann could be a huge asset if he's town here and I would like to try and let him catch up and give reads on everything

I can't shake this feeling that Gamma might be scum and her positioning around this whole thing has made me doubt if we're actually fading scum here

[Black]

Black, what do you feel about Gamma's read on me just now?

I think Gamma might be the scum off the wagon

[Black]

Part of the reason I wanted to push Dann through was because I thought he was partnered with Katsuki, but I'm actually starting to feel like Kat might be town, so the whole "bus Dann to misfade me" tinfoil has died down a little

How much of the Dann read was a partnership read?

I'm not sure. My reads have gone on a roller coaster ride today

Also what makes you feel Katsuki is town now*

My emotions have settled and I think there's a chance she just has a completely different playstyle than me as town. Some of the things I scumread her for don't really make sense now that I'm out of the emotional tunnel I was in

Black, what do you feel about Gamma's read on me just now?

I think Gamma might be the scum off the wagon

Yeah I see, but do you not have thoughts specifically about the read on me?

No not really

[Black]

I will say I like some of Gamma's solving here

So maybe off-wagon scum is JV or Thomith

[Black]

I'm a little nervous about the dropping the push when Katsuku leveled with you (not through the game content but emotionally)

Why do you think this is scum indicative?

[Black]

I'm a little nervous about the dropping the push when Katsuku leveled with you (not through the game content but emotionally)

Why do you think this is scum indicative?

Because you've seemed to do it all game, linking back to how you treated me when I kept up my push on you vs when I dropped it.

That doesn't answer the question. Why is this behavior more likely to come from scum?

[Black]

Which I am going to be hyperaware about regarding you as it's what I feel the most icky about, that and the vote shifting/overjustification so the more you do it the more I of course notice it.

Do you think I would just keep doing these things if it was scum indictive of me to do them?

[Black]

That doesn't answer the question. Why is this behavior more likely to come from scum?

Oh that's what you were asking, I'm not so sure it does for this instance in particular but generally it's because scum!you would be image focused and having someone alive that town-reads you is better than killing/pushing off people that scum-read you. It's much better optimally to push off those people if you can do so, now that I'm writing this feeling into words I feel it's more settled but the fact that Katsuki levelled with you emotionally rather than changing their stance on you it's probably much more likely this is either a coincidence or just an emotional response that's actually townie.

I can see where you're coming from regarding the scum motivation behind that but I think I just change my reads a lot. I'm not very good at the game when it's early and I'm town. I'm all over the place

Hell I don't even think my late game is that great. I've had some really good solves but it's hit or miss. Just ask Hu. I single-handedly lost a recent town game because I kept changing my solve and tunneling on the wrong people

I do think it's +town that you've seemingly been struggling with this for most of the game. Your question about whether or not I scumread/townread people based on if they agree or disagree with me makes sense knowing that you've been mulling my behavior over all game

I think if you're scum here then your visible frustration with sorting my slot has been impressive. All of your questions seem to tie into the belief that you're not sure what I'm doing or why I'm doing it, so I'm getting the feeling you are genuinely trying to solve me

[Black]

VOTE: Thomith

[Black]

VOTE: Thomith

Hi Black!

Hi Beetlejuice!

You just hanging out waiting for someone to say your name or do you actually have thoughts on the last several pages?

[Black]

Time zones are wild when you really sit back and think about them. Like we're all out here living our lives at completely different times of the day

It's funny that you woke up 8 minutes after I voted for you. Maybe you felt it in your dream? I picture you waking up in a panic and a sweat with the awful feeling that someone is pushing you

[Black]

I'm going to try to post less this week. I have way too many posts in this game

[Black]

@Dann these were a few posts that made me go hmmmm

it's probably moot anyway i think im town reading you so whatever

I think this could come from scum but I feel like if you were scum then you would probably just let me answer before you conceded the point

You can focus me, I just hope you understand why it makes me even more paranoid that I'm right about you

i know challenging you makes you go super tunnel OMGUS mode as town Black

i feel like I know you well enough that I could play to pocket you as scum pretty well here black

The way you address me here feels similar to the way you have addressed me in other games recently where I was wrong about you and tunneling a bit, specifically Ausuka's game. It feels like you are giving me a stern talking to in attempt to show me I'm wrong. I think you could probably recreate this as scum but I'm not sure if it would seem as natural as it does here

k im gonna truncate this because i gotta log off for the evening, i'll come back tomorrow to read more and give final reads and such.

right now having skimmed through about half the game

black - gun to head town. I don't feel 100% about this read yet but I think there's enough content in this game that I can get there one way or another. I would like to case this for katsuki if i have time

gamma - she's got that little private investigator vibe where she's running around checking out leads and getting people to check out pocket reads. i think this is town!gamma. lower confidence than black but another slot that I think I can get a very accurate read on given time.

CCS - i think ccs actually shows a lot more life and want to solve in his posts than in his scum games. i have found that CCS as scum generally picks like... a bit, then makes that his defining thing to morph his gameplay around. eg. defending Khaos in that mini Gamma mentioned, or defending Gob in Secrets of the Anuket Topaz. his play is much more varied here and doesn't yet seem to be pursuing a particular purpose

katsuki - more of a mixed read. as I'm reading more I'm concerned about how static their reads are. it seems like dragon/black as scum has been their solve since early d1 and even the flip of naerys didn't shake them at all. but ive been tonally town reading their posts and their interactions with black?

davesaz - someone, i think black mentioned how dave felt stiff this game. tbh, i kind of always read dave as stiff (sorry dave), but he's been considerably looser than the baseline i have for dave in my head in this game? idk he just seems more relaxed. I would lean this town at the moment.

uhhhh there's a bunch of other slots i don't really have thoughts on yet

hu tao i think is scummy. she is taking things at face value i wouldn't expect her to as town and generally playing a more LAMIST game than I have come to expect from her.

celebloki/jackson virgo - celebloki had some very awful early posts, and I have not liked the little bit of JV I've read. their weird dancing / soft defense / soft suspicion of my slot just reads exactly how I'm expecting scum to be playing around my slot, and fits the MO of where I think scum are likely to be positioning if black and katsuki are indeed TvT

I just like this post a lot

None of these are like super towntells but reading them in short succession made me doubt my read

[Black]

I will say I like some of Gamma's solving here

So maybe off-wagon scum is JV or Thomith

Do you think I'm playing differently to the Micro?

I felt like you were asking way more questions here. Like empty questions with no interest in a follow up. I just looked over your ISO in that game and I'm seeing a lot of the same questions. So I think there are more similarities between the two games than I originally thought

I don't really think this makes you town though. I think my read is similar to Dann's where I think you could go either way

[Black]

How well do you know Danns play Black?
Is there a world where he's catering to you so you TR him?

Yes, that world is possible

If Dann is town then I want him around. He's one of the best players on the site imo

I think if he's town then Mafia's best move is to either NK him before he solves the game or leave him alive to strike deepwolf fear into us. But the longer they leave him alive, the more likely he'll produce something that just wins us the game anyway

If he's scum then we have to cross that bridge eventually but because he's so good at being town, I think dealing with him later is a better option

[Black]

While Black has a point about CCS Mentioning those names because I was townreading Black and Gamma at the time, to me thay whole thing felt awkward, almost trying to remove himself from the decision making completely, by throwing out 2 other names (3 if you include me) other than himself that can be blamed if a wagon flips town

Is this the only reason you scumread Snivy?

[Black]

The rest of their posting also feels like how I used to play as scum which is what is also pinging me too - looking like you are contributing, but in reality not being the main person pushing things through so other people take the heat

A little self-meta question here but what do you think the main difference between your town and scum game is?

[Black]

VOTE: CCS

Thomith I haven't had the chance to read your self meta response but I appreciate you providing that and I'll take a closer look when I get off work

[Black]

That's what makes you guys so hard to read, y'all throw out like scumreads on 8 different players that shift on a 2-day basis

Are you implying that I'm hard to read? Because that's not the impression I've gotten from you this game. You seem pretty convinced I'm scum

[Black]

The way I see it cCS being scum doesn’t preclude Hu Tao’s earlier statement

I honestly just think CCS nom today is so bad in the context of Naerys townflip D1.

The obvious common theme behind both wagons being Black being the momentum generator on both.
She was the one that laid the original post detailing the "case" for CCS scum that got that wagon started.
She was the 3rd vote that pushed momentum for deadline nom of Naerys.

I have a feeling that even in the event where you guys flip Naerys and CCS town, you still won't nom Dragondann accordingly tomorrow. Which is a scary scenario for town.

I think it's odd that you're painting me as the momentum generator on the current CCS wagon when it's Hu Tao that is campaigning for the fade

This just feels like shade for the sake of it

[Black]

That's what makes you guys so hard to read, y'all throw out like scumreads on 8 different players that shift on a 2-day basis

Are you implying that I'm hard to read? Because that's not the impression I've gotten from you this game. You seem pretty convinced I'm scum

Nah, you're one of the few players who posts with easily followable logical intent >_>

Or so you think

If you're town then the pie on your face at the end of the game will be very sweet

[Black]

This is a terrible post for me to make if I'm playing to win, but I'm mode retirement no cares have fun

That post is not worse than your awful tunnel on me

I don't even know what your reads are, let me check

[Black]

I find it interesting you're coming for me today Katsuki. You had me as a strong Town read yesterday. What changed?

I'm trying to figure out who the 3rd wolf is.

I think that jackson, kyouko and by proxy GE are town.

Your play today hasn't given me comfy vibes today compared to yesterday.
Kitty I'm not comfortable enough giving a free townpass on but hasn't given me reason to go on yet.
Thomath feels much worse today than he did yesterday.
Dave I feel better about today compared to the hardnullsus of yesterday.
CCS just reads like misnom fodder.

So yeah, gut says it's one of you/Thomath that I'm likely wrong on, and I'd probably lean Thomath at the given moment in time of post writing.


dragondann flip is far more illuminating as to the motivations of other players so far this game and thus their alignment. I'm more focused on getting him flipped, then trying to nail down 3rd wolf right here right now.

These reads aren't terrible. I think Jackson might be a little too high, and Dann too low. Hu Tao is probably town

I don't really think you're "dumbtown" on any of these except your read on me

[Black]

~Vibes~

She feels more like she did in recent town games I played with her than she did in her recent scum game

[Black]

Hu from Mini Normal 2319 and BoonieToonz XVIII feels like Hu in this game. Mini Normal 1094 she was more tryhard, verbose, agenda driven

[Black]

So where does the scumteam fit in then in that case if it's not you and Dann is too low?

Scum is probably like CCS/Thomith/Jackson but I don't have much confidence that this is the complete solve. I work better after some flips and associations

[Black]

So where does the scumteam fit in then in that case if it's not you and Dann is too low?

Scum is probably like CCS/Thomith/Jackson but I don't have much confidence that this is the complete solve. I work better after some flips and associations

It's a shame you won't give me dragondann today. We could've been best friends upon his townflip if you really think I'm wrong on him.

I'm not confident you're wrong about him, but knowing that you can be so confident in scum!me and be wrong makes me think you coul be wrong about Dann too

[Black]

QUICK JV

GUN TO HEAD WHAT ARE THE ALIGNMENTS OF KATSUKI AND BLACK

Why are you even asking this? I feel if you were really taking my posts to heart you'd know my position on Black was one that was troubling me so this feels disingenuous to a pretty large degree but as of right now, GTH I'd say Town. Katsuki though is Town

Did you forget about 1526? I would like a detailed read if you have time

[Black]

There's one thing I am still feeling a little icky about,

@Black

what are your thoughts on my slot?

I feel like you are showing signs of being townie but I'm scared that you're a really good scum player that is capable of replicating that behavior and you're playing us rn

[Black]

I really wish Snivy and Kitty would do more

[Black]

Jackson you seem overly concerned with how people are reading you. And not in the "I want to sort their thoughts and solve them" type way

Like I've mentioned over and over again that my reads change frequently and I'm rarely confident in any reads, yet you still seem confused as to why my read on you has fluctuated

Through how you're speaking it feels like you town-read me now, you said that it would be impressive if I were doing this as a wolf etc which insinuates to me that you town-read me

I feel like I have a slight town lean on you but now that you are pressing me about my read I'm feeling worse about you

Is there reason as to why you're treating me like I could be a really strong scum player and reading me as such when you're not doing that with anybody else?

If you are scum then you play like I play as scum and that's why I don't think I'll ever fully townread you this game. I'm wary of players like you

[Black]

You give off a deepwolf vibe, that's the best way I can explain it. I think you are doing things a townie typically does but that doesn't really convince me you're town

Can you link some scum games of yours?

[Black]

I'll be honest I'm feeling sick as a fucking dog today, so this is probably a follow along day rather than an actively participate day.
I may chime in a little - I do intend to answer 1802 at some point, just not sure when.

Out of curiosity Black, did you ever read my self meta?

No I haven't. I've been sick too and just haven't had the energy to dive into things

I hope you feel better!

[Black]

If you are scum then you play like I play as scum and that's why I don't think I'll ever fully townread you this game. I'm wary of players like you

That makes perfect sense, nobody else is feeling that same way with you?

Katsuki kinda gives me this vibe. Dannflor ALWAYS gives me this vibe

I've been wrong about Dann a lot though

I'm sorry if you don't like that I'm all over the place with my read on you. That's just who I am. I'm always talking myself out of reads with paranoid tin foil stuff

[Black]

Thanks for linking those games. I'll try to take a look tonight

[Black]

Katsuki kinda gives me this vibe. Dannflor ALWAYS gives me this vibe

Katsuki is someone I really wanna play more with, scary scary but I feel I got a good grasp of her this game. If Dannflor always gives you that vibe, does that mean you're getting the same vibe with him this game?

I always think Dann could be deepwolfing but I've played with him a lot recently and I've been wrong about him every time, so I'm not confident in my ability to read him

[Black]

Katsuki is someone I really wanna play more with

IDK about that, I have a very established reputation as a lurker VI.

What is VI?

[Black]

Thanks for linking those games. I'll try to take a look tonight

Curious what you find, I can also give insight as to what I consider my wolf game if that helps at all

I'm always interested in hearing people talk about their self-meta even though it's not always useful/helpful

[Black]

Katsuki is someone I really wanna play more with

IDK about that, I have a very established reputation as a lurker VI.

If you have a reputation as a village idiot then why aren't you more open to letting others help you solve the game? If you are aware of this flaw in your game then it doesn't really make sense for you to stay stuck in your read on me when several others are telling you I'm probably town

[Black]

Village idiot - Thomith dont trouble yourself over 1802, it's something I should be ISOing you for anyways, just didnt want to do it on my phone this morning

It kinda feels like you are floating in the background this game

What do your reads look like, and are you confident in them?

[Black]

Thanks for linking those games. I'll try to take a look tonight

Curious what you find, I can also give insight as to what I consider my wolf game if that helps at all

I'm always interested in hearing people talk about their self-meta even though it's not always useful/helpful

As a wolf I tend to be more aggressive and pushy, to try and actively control the Town as much as I can while I can, I try and be as brutal to those I am pushing as I can (with respect and decency of course) and nice and soft to those I need the votes from. Which is an over-generalized self-meta but you'll see for yourself anyway

Do you think you are capable of changing or masking this behavior as scum? Like how good are you at mimicking your town game as scum?

[Black]

the jump to "Hu Tao you suck as town" feels pretty raw and real and I don't really imagine scum!Gamma would actually feel frustrated enough to go there

I had this exact thought

[Black]

VOTE: Thomith

I'm ok with this

I have a to-do list that I will get around to later when I'm home but it's really just looking into some meta so not super urgent

[Black]

czscwad

Scummiest post of the game

[Black]

Thinking on it, my issue with how Hu Tao engages me specifically is twofold: she seems to form a read on very little evidence and rarely shift from that initial read, which would not be extremely aggravating if they didn’t end up scumreading me a majority of the time.

Do you not think Katsuki is doing the exact same thing though? Her reads are the most static out of anyone in the game

Or do you just not have an issue with her when she does it because she townreads you

[Black]

I don't remember anyone not explaining why they think scum might be off the wagon, and I also don't remember anyone saying scum HAS to be off the wagon

The whole "scum off wagon" thing started with me. I just felt like it wasn't super likely that all three scum were on the wagon, and at the time I was townreading a lot of people on it. Trying to solve within 4 people felt like a good idea to me but I never said we should only focus on them today

[Black]

Mafia is hard and I think finding one scum in a group of four makes it a little easier. I realize that I could be wrong and that all three scum could be on the wagon

[Black]

That's all it is really, just not thinking all 3 scum would risk voting together on a misfade. I don't think it's super common. I know Dann linked a game but I feel like that's the exception, not the rule. I'm willing to admit I'm wrong here if anyone has more compelling evidence. I've only been playing for a year

[Black]

JacksonVirgo
Dannflor

Black
Gamma Emerald

ssbm_kyouko

Katsuki
KittyTacky
Hu Tao

davesaz
camelCasedSnivy

You think all scum were on the Naerys lim?

I honestly didn't take that into consideration when making this list, so should probably rethink some of this lost now you've pointed that out.

Was this a real thought? If you don't think it's unlikely that all 3 scum were on the wagon then why did you post this?

[Black]

It's not that I don't think it's unlikely, I just see a world where the narrative where all 3 scum couldn't have been on the wagon could be a narrative potentially spread by scum, simply because of how it was almost taken as a fact, with only really you giving anything more to the argument (by you saying you TR enough of the people on-wagon to suspect not all scum were there).

No one said all three scum

can't

be on the wagon though. And iirc is was just me, kyouko, and Gamma saying that we didn't think it was likely? I could be misremembering here and my lunch break is over in 1 minutes so I can't really go look

[Black]

I'm curious if you considered that two of your top townreads and a null read were the ones that proposed this theory. Does this make you feel worse about us?

[Black]

I kinda like that you're tinfoiling about this. I had a thought a day or two ago about kyouko maybe echoing my theory because she wanted to divert attention from the wagon so I get it

[Black]

VOTE: kyouko

Thomith do you want to help me wagon this?

[Black]

Fuck it
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Kyouko

P-edit: Well now it looks like I'm just sheeping...

Nice mindmeld

[Black]

That's all it is really, just not thinking all 3 scum would risk voting together on a misfade. I don't think it's super common. I know Dann linked a game but I feel like that's the exception, not the rule. I'm willing to admit I'm wrong here if anyone has more compelling evidence. I've only been playing for a year

I've certainly played a game before where my entire scumteam just voted as a 4-man scumblock (then 3) all game long.

VCA with 1 flip is a pretty fruitless endeavor regardless.

I never said it doesn't happen, just that it is very rare in my experience

[Black]

I'd be surprised if I lived until endgame tbh

I wouldn't be

If you're wrong about Dann then that means you are endlessly tunnelled on two townies. You're no threat to scum in this scenario

[Black]

I wouldn't be

If you're wrong about Dann then that means you are endlessly tunnelled on two townies. You're no threat to scum in this scenario

Mmm, quite unfortunate that I haven't been able to find a reason for you to not be scum in 374 posts.

I think that says more about you than it does me since quite a few other people have found me as town

[Black]

Well the next next votecount after you voted was the final one of the day. Doesn’t seem very productive to me.

With a little work, you can determine what the vote count is after every count.
The movement of the votes is what actually matters.
A flip is productive, more productive than a no-lim.
These are extremely basic concepts. I know you understand them.

Sure I understand the concepts, I just don’t understand how you’re applying them.
How about you spell it all out for me at once.

What does your readslist look like atm

[Black]

I wouldn't be

If you're wrong about Dann then that means you are endlessly tunnelled on two townies. You're no threat to scum in this scenario

Mmm, quite unfortunate that I haven't been able to find a reason for you to not be scum in 374 posts.

I think that says more about you than it does me since quite a few other people have found me as town

IDK how much stock I put on other people's ability to read you accurately Ms. 6-0.

People definitely found me as scum in those 6 games. It took a combination of good teamwork and some weaseling out of tough situations to win them all. But sure, go ahead and assume I was universally townread in those games and just steamrolled everyone. Whatever it takes to keep convincing yourself you're right about me

[Black]

If kyouko flips scum I think I know who at least one partner is

I'm going to let this marinate for a bit though

[Black]

A lim is needed. I don't know anyone's alignment. So I vote. I don't see any denial there.

*holds up a sign from the kyouko wagon*

[Black]

Well the next next votecount after you voted was the final one of the day. Doesn’t seem very productive to me.

With a little work, you can determine what the vote count is after every count.
The movement of the votes is what actually matters.
A flip is productive, more productive than a no-lim.
These are extremely basic concepts. I know you understand them.

Sure I understand the concepts, I just don’t understand how you’re applying them.
How about you spell it all out for me at once.

What does your readslist look like atm

not sure but I'll say dave has fallen to around null from my earlier TR

Can you give me like a rough estimate of your list

[Black]

Was looking at some ISO's and I want to know if anyone else thinks this progression is sus

I don't think it's likely that all 3 scum were on the Naerys wagon

Which means there's at least one scum in {Gamma, Thomith, Jackson, Dragon}

Alternatively: that wagon was god-awful and we should kill on it.

^Here Gamma rejects my idea of looking off-wagon

{Gamma, Thomith, Jackson, Dragon}

I want to fade in this group

Why has your read on me changed?
Still the Jackson thing from yesterday?

These 4 were off the Naerys wagon and I don't think the entire scum team was on that wagon

Aside from that though I'm having a similar problem that I had in Micro Normal 1094. Some of your posts just gut ping me the wrong way

Issue with your pool is, unless one or less scum was on Naerys, it is still statistically better to look at those on the wagon.

^Gamma continues to argue that we should look on-wagon

I only really voted you because I thought there was a guilty. I still want to look at those that voted Naerys most of all.

^Gamma admits she only voted Dragon because she thought there was a guilty on him, and once again confirms that she wants to vote on-wagon

I’m feeling good about Thomith town so I disagree that the latter group has good odds of hitting scum

^Gamma says she doesn't think voting off-wagon has good odds of hitting scum

intent to hammer

I actually feel somewhat better about JV after our exchange, and since I already TR Thomith and know I’m town, that just leaves Dragon/Dannflor as the only person who can be scum off-wagon.

^Gamma suddenly reverses course when she finds an opportunity to hammer. Her reasoning for declaring intent is because she thinks Dragon is the only person who could be scum off-wagon. Despite constantly arguing that we should vote on-wagon, saying it's statistically better, and even telling Dragon she only voted for him originally because of the "guilty", she almost hammers here

Whoever said sorting a smaller pool is easier was right *shrug*

^This is Gamma's reasoning when called out on this behavior. She throws away statistics, odds, her entire belief that we should fade on-wagon, all because she wanted to take the easier road and hammer someone with 5 days remaining in the deadline. I feel like this sequence is more likely to come from scum

There are a couple posts in between the last two quotes above that don't really track re: Gamma's read on Dragon

I do have some concerns with [Dragon's] D1 actions but I was substantially overstating things to try and push the presumed guilty

At this point I'm willing to leave Dannflor alive to let him cook

Can we fade Katsuki instead? I don't think her reads are real

VOTE: Katsuki

You do you, but I want to put [Dragon] to the fire

Gamma's progression here doesn't make sense to me. She admitted earlier that she only voted Dragon because of the "guilty", and here she doubles down and says she has some concerns with Dragon's D1 but she overstated them due to the "guilty". Then out of no where, Dragon/Dann plummets to the bottom of her readslist and she has decided to push that from this point onwards. It doesn't feel natural at all. It feels like opportunistic scum

I'd like other opinions on this

[Black]

I'd like other opinions on this

Sure. She's probably town.

Why?

[Black]

Oh ok cool story bro

[Black]

I'd like other opinions on this,

unless you're a troll

Fixed

[Black]

My 2000!

[Black]

First impression is that I never saw this kind of post-by-post analysis in games we played together where you were town, but I did see it in the first one of your scumgames I looked at earlier

I literally did it like 3 times in the last game you and I played together

Cute shade though

[Black]

People definitely found me as scum in those 6 games. It took a combination of good teamwork and some weaseling out of tough situations to win them all. But sure, go ahead and assume I was universally townread in those games and just steamrolled everyone. Whatever it takes to keep convincing yourself you're right about me

Most of it is based on what's happening in this game tbh.

Trying to find a way to say that without hurting the confidence of the townies who may be wrong about you this game, because clearly you have many players fooled this game. Your scum and town games are so incredibly distinct from one another that it's personally obvious to me. All the things I noticed from this game were missing from every town game of yours, and only present in the scum games. The reason for it is really just because you're proficient at scum and recognizing what you need to do as scum to achieve your wincon. So unless you suddenly decided to play to a scum wincon as town this game, it's really just simply that you're scum this game.

Just because other's don't share my view, doesn't mean that I have to conform to everyone else's belief.

Vote me then. Push me. Explain to the class why I'm scum instead of just popping in with shade every now and then. The confidence in your read mixed with your lack of action makes zero sense from a town!you perspective

[Black]

If I had the same level of confidence in any of my scumreads that you do in your read on me, I would be campaigning furiously to get that person faded

It's truly one of the most annoying things I've experienced in my entire year here

JUST FUCKING PUSH ME

[Black]

Oh open 895 - open 899 is another game I'm in

Yeah, and there's several other towngames where I do post-by-post analysis. Do your homework or else no one is going to buy your shade

[Black]

Oh open 895 - open 899 is another game I'm in

Now that you know that's NAI of me, what is your second impression of my post?

[Black]

Vote me then. Push me. Explain to the class why I'm scum instead of just popping in with shade every now and then. The confidence in your read mixed with your lack of action makes zero sense from a town!you perspective

Sure it makes sense; I already have a scumwagon at L-1.

You could always just hammer him, and if he flips town, I sheep you the rest of the game no questions asked.

No way this is a real thought. You only think I'm scum if Dragondann is scum, yet you haven't found a townie post in my entire ISO and you think this:

Your scum and town games are so incredibly distinct from one another that it's personally obvious to me. All the things I noticed from this game were missing from every town game of yours, and only present in the scum games.

Like you have got to be joking

[Black]

Why am I the only player that notices Katsuki's positioning around me is TERRIBLE

[Black]

It's absolutely terrible

Your read doesn't make sense

Everything you say about me indicates you're absolutely sure I'm scum, but then you've mentioned twice now that if Dann flips town you'll think I'm town


You mean to tell me your read on me is PURELY an association read based on me being scum with Dann, yet you post stuff like 1969 and 2004? What the fuck?

[Black]

As town, you should also have no idea if she actually ends up flipping town or scum this game. At the very least, you're making this statement with the assumption that she for sure received a town role PM.

Also what is this? As town, YOU should have no idea if I actually flip town or scum this game. At the very least, every statement you've made this game about me is under the assumption that I for sure received a scum role PM

[Black]

She's good, is all I can say lol. It's a huge reason why I love her play so much and why I've just been sitting back. I'm enjoying how she plays and I neither have the energy nor the ego to try and make the game unpleasant for everyone else while I try my way to deathtunnel her into the ground D1. There's also a degree of unfamiliarity there ofc, so I really wanted to take my time to figure out the rest of the game before pushing for her.

Yawn

These just feel like excuses to not push someone. And why would a town player not want to push someone they are completely confident flips scum? I can think of why a scum player wouldn't want to, especially in a situation where that player is townread by over half the playerlist

[Black]

I'm kinda jus ttrying to type as fast as I can since it seems like we have a hammer.

I think you've been quite intentional about how you've played this game with how you structure your posts and what you're looking to achieve with your posts this game compared to your other town games.

I think your meta read is garbage and if you're town then I'll be looking forward to adding you to the list of people that have tried to meta read me and failed miserably

We'll just have to see. My scumread on you was before I took a peek at your other games, which I only bothered to do because I would admittedly feel bad if I misread you this game since I enjoy you as a player. I never take the time to go out of my way to read games of other players that I wasn't in, you're the first by my memory.

This read doesn't come from a town player that thinks I'm only scum if dragondann is

[Black]

First impression is that I never saw this kind of post-by-post analysis in games we played together where you were town, but I did see it in the first one of your scumgames I looked at earlier

I literally did it like 3 times in the last game you and I played together

Cute shade though

I could only find one that was even close and I would say it's a big difference from the case for Gamma

I was actually referring to Flavorless Hell, specifically my pbp's on Drew, Alianna, and Hu Tao. And yeah they're going to look different because I'm not some robot that posts the same way all the time

[Black]

VOTE: Katsuki

I'm down to throw this slot off a cliff

I'd be perfectly content fading kyouko or Gamma as well

[Black]

i care about voting scum and im confident i can case it when needed

well you have yet to post a case

So you can ignore it just like you have with mine?

Tell me how Katsuki's read on me makes sense from a town perspective. You can use 2014, 2017, 2021, and 2023 as references

[Black]

First impression is that I never saw this kind of post-by-post analysis in games we played together where you were town, but I did see it in the first one of your scumgames I looked at earlier

I literally did it like 3 times in the last game you and I played together

Cute shade though

I could only find one that was even close and I would say it's a big difference from the case for Gamma

Can you stop discrediting me with very weak meta arguments and actually give your opinion on Gamma's progression?

[Black]

Vote me then. Push me. Explain to the class why I'm scum instead of just popping in with shade every now and then. The confidence in your read mixed with your lack of action makes zero sense from a town!you perspective

Sure it makes sense; I already have a scumwagon at L-1.

You could always just hammer him, and if he flips town, I sheep you the rest of the game no questions asked.

No way this is a real thought. You only think I'm scum if Dragondann is scum, yet you haven't found a townie post in my entire ISO and you think this:

Your scum and town games are so incredibly distinct from one another that it's personally obvious to me. All the things I noticed from this game were missing from every town game of yours, and only present in the scum games.

Like you have got to be joking

where is the second quote from, it piques my interest

2004

[Black]

I wouldn't be

If you're wrong about Dann then that means you are endlessly tunnelled on two townies. You're no threat to scum in this scenario

Mmm, quite unfortunate that I haven't been able to find a reason for you to not be scum in 374 posts.

THIS DOES NOT COME FROM SOMEONE THAT THINKS I CAN ONLY BE SCUM IF DRAGONDANN IS SCUM

[Black]

First impression is that I never saw this kind of post-by-post analysis in games we played together where you were town, but I did see it in the first one of your scumgames I looked at earlier

I literally did it like 3 times in the last game you and I played together

Cute shade though

I could only find one that was even close and I would say it's a big difference from the case for Gamma

I was actually referring to Flavorless Hell, specifically my pbp's on Drew, Alianna, and Hu Tao. And yeah they're going to look different because I'm not some robot that posts the same way all the time

Spoiler: Flavorless Hell

I'm having an issue where I feel really paranoid and unsure about this

I don't really think it's Celebloki or Hu Tao

I initially didn't think it could be Drew but now I'm getting gut feelings about things in his ISO. It feels like he's laying low and sowing doubt where he can

Also remember, Dragon could have jailed the NK target as well.

This feels like he could have been paranoid about being Dragon's target. It could also just be town!Drew pointing out possible scenarios, so idk

Anywho to keep things game related.

I really think it is Umlaut as scum.

Definitely could be a deep wolf here though.

I don't really think that Alt would hard defend Gob like that as a buddy, and then just give up. But I still can't shake the feeling that she is.

This Umlaut read and the conviction behind it seems to come out of nowhere. And no explanation feels even worse. It just makes me think Drew was trying to push the misfade along

It just doesn't make a lot of sense for scum to target me over Dragon

Pardon me for not fully believing you would be the NK target, even if Dragon is actually the JK.

My gut is telling me we YOLO this and kick Black outta here.

This gut feeling about me doesn't match the read in his previous post where he said he really didn't think I would hard defend gob. And if his gut was telling him this then I'm not sure why he wouldn't have voted for me? It felt like he was throwing this out to see if anyone would support it

Like Dragon is posting elsewhere on the site but he just forgot about a game in which he's a PR and scum was faded D1? Doesn't seem very likely to me

It might be just as simple as he is scum and is basically giving up.

Then Drew casts some shade on Dragon here after I expressed doubts about him

My issue is that I can see some of these thoughts coming from a town!Drew perspective. But it just doesn't feel like he's doing much other than pushing certain ideas along. He's not really thinking critically about these things, which makes me think he's just happy with anything we do that doesn't involve fading him

I know kyouko and Alianna said they really don't think it's Drew. I'm wondering if I'm just missing something here and I should be looking elsewhere

VOTE: gob

I don't understand what gob is doing but I'm not convinced he isn't just limbait.
Any particular reason to vote him?

A little fence sitty here, and then questioning my vote. +partner equity

Okay fiiiiiiiiiiiine, you can be scum.

VOTE: Doctor Drew

@Altaria - I see what you mean there. I've been looking through gob's completed games for a towngame but it's taken me quite a while to find one.

Man does everyone just blindly follow meta on this site?

I happen to like meta (though I have been burned by it before), but I don't think that's true of everyone on the site and I don't see where the "blind following" is.

Gob seems a bit frustrated here about Alianna considering his meta. He could be legit frustrated that his partner is openly considering it? But I want to say this is probably negative partner equity

Briefly skimmed gob's ISO in DEFCON and it does seem better, though I don't have the context of actually looking at the interactions.

Might give it some time before I vote there though.

+partner equity. Riding the fence

Spoiler: intriguing meta findings that I am not sure how to interpret yet

This is from a scumgame Dragon repped into. Very similar entrance, though not as serious.

VOTE: Xegarus
VOTE: camelCasedSnivy
VOTE: biancospino
VOTE: yessiree
VOTE: RCEnigma
VOTE: Aisa
VOTE: Aureal
VOTE: KittyTacky
VOTE: Celebloki
VOTE: Not_Mafia
VOTE: Doctor Drew
VOTE: KatyKimFanClub

Enchant locktown.

VOTE: Xegarus
VOTE: camelCasedSnivy
VOTE: biancospino
VOTE: yessiree
VOTE: RCEnigma
VOTE: Aisa
VOTE: Aureal
VOTE: KittyTacky
VOTE: Celebloki
VOTE: Not_Mafia
VOTE: Doctor Drew
VOTE: KatyKimFanClub

Enchant locktown.

Is this serious?

Oh, I'm actually townreading that post if that's what you mean, but the locktown isn't 100% serious.

And I don't hate Dragon sheeping then in this manor, this is definitely something I would do as town.

.....are you claiming not town?

Huh?

nvm I just realized last time I pushed something like this as a scumslip it was our doctor. So this is probably makes you town if anything.

Pedit: Enchant is this directed at me or Drew?

I'd be willing to vote Umlaut or gob.
I'd consider Drew or Dragon but I kind of want to see more from them.

Elaborate on Umlaut and Drew

Nothing they've done has townpinged me, and a lot of players have townpinged me this game. That's really it.
I have more experience with Drew and I think I might have a tell on him that works in late game, so I'm inclined to want to keep him alive a little longer.

Gob wants Alianna to go deeper into her non-gob read. Trying to throw her off track? Negative partner equity

^
Plus the pings I got from the way Umlaut sheeped ssbm's case.

VOTE: Umlaut

i would be down with an umlaut wagon btw. i think i want to lim within dragon and umlaut today

Still down to vote Umlaut?

Alianna tries to push Umlaut through right around the time gob starts openwolfing. +partner equity

I'm okay with this.

VOTE: gob

E-1 by my count.

Alianna is pretty quiet when gob is doing his whole "Dragon is obvscum but we don't need to fade him" thing, and then shows up to bus. I think this is +partner equity

yep i'm feeling this too

i feel a little worse about aliana as well. i'm pretty sure she said she thought gob was limbait but joined the wagon anyway

VOTE: Hu Tao

I thought he could be limbait, and I do still think that is a possibility, but I've been pretty consistent in that I'm not townreading or defending him for it.

Alianna defending her read here doesn't feel great but I'm not sure she wouldn't do this as a non-partner

I don't think we can safely put Dann in the townblock

@Drew I'm curious what your thoughts are on Alianna, if you're willing to give them

Yes. Post 45 seems forced, they voted me based on the gob vote but I never explained my gob vote. If they were curious about it then they would have just asked me before voting or suspecting me.

I didn't get the impression she voted you for 31, I thought she was voting you for 39 and 41

dragoneater is right. your "why" made me feel like you were concerned about the vote and i didn't like how you accepted "why not" as an answer originally

i'm not sure how this wasn't obvious to you after 55?

also i disagree with the assessment that i would have just asked you about it before putting pressure on you. sometimes people use voting as a way to communicate

Okay, maybe that's my misunderstanding then

This reminds me of another moment in 1094 where Hu tried to push me for bad reasons and then backed off in a real appease-y type way

I think we need a flip. This game seems ro be the same conversation in different ways to me.

This was an awful take and a complete misrep over the state of the game at the time

I'm also starting to get sus of Gob but I'm not sure why.

This looks really bad in hindsight

how am i sheeping umlaut when i expressed suspicion there before he even voted?

i'll admit i considered not going there because i'm still somewhat suspicious of umlaut but i think the way hu tao has tagged along on both the dragon and gob wagons outweighs those worries about umlaut

i'm a little wary of you and aliana but y'all are both putting in more effort than hu tao. i think celebloki and drew are town, and i know i'm town, so i'm not sure why you think it's a bad look for me to push hu tao here

So I'm scum because I'm not putting enough effort in for your liking?

that's certainly one way to phrase it

i think you could be scum because you're not really doing much solving, you want to end the day for a reason i don't think makes much sense, and you're just jumping from wagon to wagon without much reasoning

I started the gob quick wagon. So if I'm scum are you saying I'm saving my scum teammate dragon after making him claim? Or are you saying I'm scum who wanted to remove pressure off one town to another?

Hu comes across as pretty defensive here

I've been thinking that the last scum is someone that has been scumreading Dragon and putting him in their solves. Hu Tao has been doing that more than anyone

Hu Tao is also doing the least amount of solving and seems to just be lurking through the game not saying much of anything. I kinda thought it was lazy town but now I just think it's scum motivated

I kinda forgot about that game, that was a slap in the face to lose. But I'm looking at it again now and I found the 3 you mentioned - these look more like your Open 895 (town) posts. 833 on Drew analyzes each post, and comes to a meaningful conclusion at the end that is supported by the analysis. You tell us how you feel about each of Drew's posts and it comes together. 974 is a tally sheet where you're checking Alianna's and gob's ISOs for partner equity with flipped scum gob. 1153 on Hu Tao is a list of her posts with reasons why they're scummy - like the Elements post from Open 895.

This case on Gamma is more IIOA than you do as town

VOTE: Black

Yeah I'm not buying that town!you would vote me here based on this weak ass meta read