Open 140 - Trendy and Subversive C9 v3 (OVER) before 781

[AndyTony]

Vote: Uncle Pain

Awesome. Name.

[AndyTony]

Emp, techincally you're not random voting either - and it's early to be certain of anything.

ekim - are you trying to take a leadership role of sorts while expressing opinions on role claiming?

It's best to play it by ear as we have no idea what the circumstances may be like, and in a game with more than one scum, claiming is beyond foolish as it will help the person's scum partner find the best NK -

[AndyTony]

And the avatar is Icabob Crane (Johnny Depp) from Sleepy Hollow

[AndyTony]

word.

[AndyTony]

And Emp - fuzzy lightning is another, in fact the first: to not random vote.

are you eager for a wagon to seem legit?

[AndyTony]

Andy,

why do you say I didn't random vote?

So I have played in a game with him where he was scum, I could have played in a number of games with any number of people in here and they could have been scum, in fact, anyone here who has played in a fair few games, I am willing to bet they have been scum on at least one occasion, it doesn't mean they are now,

so maybe it wasn't a "random" vote

, per se, but it wasn't a serious vote in order to start a wagon.

I mentioned you to express a point to Emp - -

I said your vote wasn't random, and you agree - I'm not telling you it was/wasn't serious, that's for you to decide.

That being said, I was curious as to why Emp wanted a serious vote on someone who did the very same thing -- he had technically two people to have beef with for the very same reason and picked one of the two with seemingly concrete conviction - I'm saying he's suspicious for it, not you.

Though you did get kind of defensive lol

[AndyTony]

1. What? lol I didn't lie - I said Fl didn't make a random vote, and he admitted it..

so maybe it wasn't a "random" vote, per se....

He just needed me to clarify that I was pointing out it not being random YET not being serious either

2. You had a random vote? If it was random, why give a reason?

Vote: ekiM

For not random voting.

It's hardly random when you say "For..."

3. Any vote that is scum-hunting or serious in nature is a vote intended for a lynch, or a wagon to lead to such - - are you saying you put serious votes on people to protect them from wagons? lmao

lol Don't waste my time, Little guy...

[AndyTony]

lol "Excellent Case", Little guy.

[AndyTony]

1. What? lol I didn't lie - I said Fl didn't make a random vote, and he admitted it..

so maybe it wasn't a "random" vote, per se....

He just needed me to clarify that I was pointing out it not being random YET not being serious either

He said ""random" vote" that's different from Random Vote.

He was clarifying that though it wasn't random it was NOT SERIOUS - and I agreed with him - pay attention in the future, Emp.

2. You had a random vote? If it was random, why give a reason?

Vote: ekiM

For not random voting.

It's hardly random when you say "For..."

You give reasons with random votes.

In the random stages the reasons are often humorous or don't make sense, or are exclamations of why they're random - - there are reasons for voting that pertains to GAMEPLAY and that makes it an actual vote - - you voted based on someones GAMEPLAY.

3. Any vote that is scum-hunting or serious in nature is a vote intended for a lynch, or a wagon to lead to such - - are you saying you put serious votes on people to protect them from wagons? lmao

This is a bunch of lies.

You just finished saying I don't respond to anything, and this is your idea of not being an ignorant hick? - - How is ANYTHING written above in my quote a lie? Are we to take you on your word? lol give EVIDENCE

I never said my vote was serious. AT is the one saying that.

It was serious because you based it on someone's gameplay - - Are you trying to say that if you vote and mislynch one of our town people, you can get off the hook by saying it wasn't serious? Is this a sick version of simon says? We don't have to hold you accountable for any votes unless you state "This is serious" ? lmao lmao lol!!!!!!!!

lol Don't waste my time, Little guy...

I'm right so he resorts to Ad Homs.

To be clear:
Myself and another player have decided to nickname Emp "Little Guy" until he decides to play the game like an adult/rational person.

Emp, Zwet, Millar - - they're all lopped up in the "WTF"? pile because they have a fetish for being lynched.

Emp is trying to distract us, rant and rave - and either get somebody mislynched, or have himself done in - - he's screwed over MANY towns by acting scummy as a towny or distracting us from real scumhunting.

Grow up, little guy.

[AndyTony]

Are hyou as retard or do you know what a random vote is?

Above speaks for itself...and makes me laugh lol

Vote: Bod

He used an E in his post.

OMG serious vote based on gameplay.

What is this an example of? Do you understand what I mean by voting based on gameplay?

- - How is ANYTHING written above in my quote a lie? Are we to take you on your word? lol give EVIDENCE

I did.

Where's the evidence then? You can't just SAY it's there lol

It was serious because you based it on someone's gameplay - - Are you trying to say that if you vote and mislynch one of our town people, you can get off the hook by saying it wasn't serious? Is this a sick version of simon says? We don't have to hold you accountable for any votes unless you state "This is serious" ? lmao lmao lol!!!!!!!!

I never said that.

Then explain yourself!

I play adult like. I just resort to stupid insults when I casn't defend myself. I real adult.

Quoting a fake version of me is childish....

And you've been told what is expected of a decent player on mafia scum "Slayer's Gambit" is hardly an excuse to play poorly.

And your whole case is childish and blown out of proportion on your end. You based this whole case on calling me a liar - I proved to you I wasn't lying.

Says mister. "Oops, Scum just quick hammered. I better distract the town by pretending to be the real hammerer."

Can you please better explain this? It seems obscure and yet another attempt to distract us

[AndyTony]

We all know what a random vote is - you gave a HORRIBLE example with that letter "E" thing -

Besides, Emp, I don't need to defend myself to you, you have no case - we only just broke onto the second page, and you think I'm scum because I'm a "Liar"

I'm a liar because I used someone as an example of who didn't make a random vote? Someone who agreed they didn't make a random vote, but wanted it to be clear that it wasn't necessarily serious?

Nice case, Little Guy.

[AndyTony]

I apologize for exchanging the word random for random in Fl's mouth

Biggest. Scumtell. Ever.

[AndyTony]

okay.

[AndyTony]

no, I'm ignoring you.

[AndyTony]

Emp, I'd appreciate it if you didn't put words in MY mouth and tell people I'm admitting things - it's pretty silly of you.

I'm ignoring you so I can wait for other people to post. You're wasting my time and polluting the board

[AndyTony]

The main statement about this whole random vote issue, was me drawing a point, I wasn't scumhunting with it otherwise I would have initiated an FoS or a vote on Emp - - it was food for thought -

That being said - I was only out to prove I wasn't lying - - and me being some sort of liar is the basis of Emp's legitimate vote on me

You even say in the last paragraph you don't think I was lying.

And I find it odd that in sharing your thoughts on the situation, you failed to be as fair in the negative aspects of Emp's side - - You don't care to draw any attention toward his behavior and pestering?

My only point was that there was more than one person guilty of not having a full on "joke vote" at the time he put his own vote down for that reason - - NOTE: I never once said he, or the ACT was SCUMMY - - I was being MORE than fair
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That being said, you don't find his behavior antagonistic and therein suspicious?

Think about it - I pointed out that the person he voted wasn't the only one who hadn't had a joke vote - I am indeed right as we agree -

I then came to an understanding with FL that his vote was not joking OR serious - not once even then did I yell scum in any way - because it was jsut everyone spitballing.

That being said - I'm clearly no LIAR, especially at the time that he called me so.

and in light of Emp calling me a liar without grounds, in light of him refusing to clearly list his evidence or refer back to it, in him slandering me when I decide to log off and come back to this later (manipulating my attendence as some sort of confession or weak defense), and in light of him responding to quesitons and thoughts with "Lies." and rants, you think it's me that's conducting any obfuscation? Right down to taking my statement of "I'm ignoring you" and calling THAT a lie - -

he could have simply said "Random" and random meant "Random" (as in joke) and the traditional random - - what I was expressing is that the quotation mark of "Random" to ME - meant "not random, not serious" which I repeated several times when mentioning my encounter with FL
------------------------------

With all that into account, you didn't find anything negative in Emp's behavior or how he conducted himself to an observation? not an FoS or a vote, and observation.

[AndyTony]

The guy gets to me and I only respond and clarify because I don't know how many ppl on this board know to ignore/filer him..

[AndyTony]

filter*

[AndyTony]

@Ekim -

The role claim position you have is a difference of opinions, I'd just prefer to stick to mine (though I'm open minded)

And the entire argument wasn't as though I was trying to solidify grounds for a vote or finger of suspicion - I was in the head to head because I wanted to clarify there were no lies on my part

[AndyTony]

@Uncle Pain

- Your question to FL suggests a "flaw" and "argument" - - I rather regard it as a misunderstanding over how one regarded a simple word - - And yes, I was being overcautious - - I've played with Emp enough to know that he often YES - votes for reasons much like the one he first gave, hence, based on his meta, I understandably INQUIRED as to just how serious it was - - - - The bulk of the head to head was me clarifying I wasn't lying.

- If I were reading it as a visitor, my immediate reaction would be a quizzical face followed by a frown lol - The "lies! Lies!" stuff bothered me because it had no base or reason or truth to it - - I don't like getting misrepresented when some random shouts nonesense about me - - I've heard this whole thing called a couple times an "Emp hole" -- I fell in one on this board and should have ignored him and trusted that other people would step in with some sense, but you're all new players to me for the most part - -

But yeah, I'd read it with disapproval on both parts, mine for humoring him.
-----------------------------

You seemed pretty friendly to ekim's position on our set up and role claiming - - can you express your thoughts in detail on the subject and explain your idea on the pros and cons to claiming?

If you can't - - were you just agreeing with him to make nice?

[AndyTony]

Because I'm not attacking you as scum Emp, I haven't called you it, FoS'd you, or Voted you - - I spent that head to head defending myself from being called a liar.

--------------------------------

@UP: I personally didn't really see anything inherently scummy about the beginning play by itself, as I believe I have previously stated, and I don't believe that I can give an objective answer to that right now because

I will admit, I am biased against Empking in most cases because he doesn't normally provide much help to the town.

I have also seen votes for not random voting be entirely serious so I am not willing to discount Emp's vote as just a joke.

FoS: AT

for bringing meta into the discussion.

Every game is different, and just because someone played one way in one game doesn't mean he/she is scum or town based on the way he/she is playing in this game.

In all fairness, your bias is a form of basing your gameplay and regard for a player on meta as well - I'm just the first to have voiced it. And I too have seen serious votes in the random stage/weak arguments for votes - and it's from Emp mostly - - for anyone that's played with him, he'll vote someone passionately with very little to go on, hence I inquired about the vote, I didn't attack.

[AndyTony]

I was asking you a question - you could have said "no" - it was page one - conversation is good.

[AndyTony]

I'm open minded about the claiming in a sense where all situations can vary and none of us can determine the future - - What I find foolish is planning ahead. I only have a handful of games under my belt, and each one has a new situation - - this situation, that called for what you discussed on that page, is new for me - - one thing that isn't new, is I've found in mafia that there are multiple approached to ALL scenarios - and when role claiming i agreeably a "no-no" - I immediately assumed suggesting otherwise was iffy.

You've explained what you prefer in exchange to random voting, and it makes sense - however, I've yet to encounter that, so surely you'd understand why it would strike me as odd - - my POV is indeed different because the first thing I saw was "Someone trying to take a leadership role/force pro-town image" on themselves on the first page.

And once again - I'm asking someon a question - conversation is good. I'm either going to know his position on your early post as well, and his opinion/thoughts (you know. Conversation.) - - And I never said anything about buddying up - I wanted to know if it was making nice (all in good opening discussion, being kind and civil in the greeting to the extent of compliments on screen names, questions about avatars etc).

If you find something wrong with that, I'm always happy to answer questions, otherwise I kind of find it opportunistic of you to be focusing soley on me while when all of your suspicions can be thrown out the window based on as you put it "a difference in pov and just scumhunting" - - is it because I've got the most posts up so far? That would make sense, I guess - it influences attention

[AndyTony]

Unvote

[AndyTony]

I can see your intentions - but even you agree that curcumstances make us deviate from plans - it's those kind of things I'd like to be cognizant of - I'm against planning because 1. the person who makes the plan is often regarded somewhat more town for doing so, and can in some instances attain a leadership role 2. A plan may narrow our minds to all possibilities and cast a veil on gameplay

Those are the general reasons for me, as for this game in particular, there's no reason to fault you on offering logic with good intention, but in a game where we can't prove intention, you can understand my curiosity

[AndyTony]

First off - no need for personal jabs

1. Even you called it a plan and in 66 suggested specifically this one being beneficial and that you planned it because you "didn't want deputy to counter-claim cop"

2. I'm all for town players, I'd appreciate you not branching negative connotation to my thoughts in an attempt to lash at me, it's cheap -

What I'm not for is page one, post one plan making in an attempt for a pro town leadership role - It's far to early for such things and it's not just an opinion, it is indeed a plan as you agree in your posts (general or not, a plan is a plan)

Just so everybody is completely clear on this

: We have one power role and one backup. The power role was selected with 50% chance to be either a cop or a doc. The backup was selected with an independent 50% chance to be either a deputy or a nurse. This means we are guaranteed exactly one of Cop/Doc, but have only a 50% chance that the backup role corresponds to the power role.

The power role knows who they are, and that there is a 50% chance that if they are killed they will be backed up.

One might be tempted to say

that a potentially replaceable power role could be less concerned for their own safety than usual,

but it's probably best to

assume a worst-case scenario and play as normal. If threatened with a hammer, claim as usual. Counter-claim false power role claims as you see fit, but assume nothing if a backup is claimed.

The backup will know that they are the backup, and there is a 50% chance that the power role matches with them.

One might be tempted to say

that a potential power role replacement might take into account their own safety more than a vanilla townie would,

but it's probably best to play as if

you were a vanilla townie.

If threatened with hammer, claim. Counter-claim false backup claims

, but think carefully on the best course of action if a power role is claimed.

In the above, do you see where it might seem like a plan?

I offered my thoughts on the set-up, because I thought it would help.

Other people were free to do the same. Or not.

I'm not gonna lie - you're not making me feel like it's alright to casually be opposed to it - - I'm not trying to grill you man, but you're implying I'm suspicious and made a personal attack on my private life and how I "plan" it - pretty uncool, dude -

I've only put these two quotes up to point out to you where I read certain signals to suggest it's a plan, and a rather one sided one (not open minded to other ppl) - It's not an attack, I think it's best to call it you and I exchanging POV (since you said they were off)
-----
In you plan, you suggest what we might do with our free will - then slash it with "but you should do this..." more than once

You make statements about the gameplay, and you don't suggest you're spitballin' ideas or anything, it comes across as a plan, and I'm just EXPRESSING how I feel about someone's FIRST POST being a PLAN because it seems like an off the bat attempt to seem pro town and take leadership.

There's nothing wrong with ppl being regarded as such, but it happens naturally and without trying, it simply comes through in the gameplay - - it doesn't get manufactured post one, page one - - That's my only thought.

If you were sharing a thought you had on the set up, you would have worded how you thought the set up was, and pointed out "Could be trouble when claiming" - - that's understandable

But you went so far as to suggest play approaches and what to do in scenarios to come, and that is very much a plan.

Are we on the same page yet?

[AndyTony]

Fair enough, man - I don't fault you for not being a fan of random voting, I understand you position completely - We'll agree to disagree on whether it was a plan - I only wanted to share the same way you did (about random voting) about how I FELT about such a thing -

We'll agree you didn't do it

[AndyTony]

Well I don't want us to pretend I don't have an opinion lol

And making listing possible actions in certain situations to come...as you put it...has a definition in my books - I'd appreciate us not resorting back to "semantics" over anything I say, it seems like an easy cop out - I only wanted you to consider my opinion fairly - I've considered yours, and am formally telling you that I'm not a fan of planning such a thing as claiming, or planning as early as post one, page one - - If you feel it's not what you were doing, then I APOLOGIZE - and only hope you can look at what I'm telling you as an opinion, is all - there was no need for personal jabs, ignorant remarks about semantics etc.

Because I you can't prove the good intentions behind that first post
And I can't prove any possible bad intentions
I'm more than happy to let it lie - I'm not trying to press you up against the wall, no need to to be on hind legs here.

but yeah - I'd like to not pretend my opinions don't exist, please...

[AndyTony]

EBWOP* - - "And listing 'possible actions in certain situations' to come..."

[AndyTony]

I'm not telling you it's malicious - I can't prove your intentions, I'm sharing my INTERPRETATION
---------------------------------------------------------
Point 1

In my first post

I said what the set-up was and what I think people should do in certain situations

. You got a problem with that? Why?

- - Those certain situations, are things in the future. When you say what people should do in the future, you are planning.

-- When someone makes a plan on their first post. On the first page. I regard it as trying to take a leadership role. To appear as a pro-town leader.

-- When someone TRIES to appear that way, they are manufacturing identity and immunity in my opinion. Township is recognized in gameplay naturally. Not made.

And plans alone cast narrow minded veils on gameplay at times. It's best to play the moments that come, all games are different IMO.


----------------------------------------
That's what I

HAVE

been saying, that's where I raise an eyebrow, that's why I inquired.

Your reaction to it is

POINT 2

What I meant by saying I don't want to get into a semantic argument is that

I do not care, at all...

I

offered my thoughts

on the set-up, because I thought it would help.

Other people were free to do the same. Or not.

You haven't made me feel free to express my opinions...

Saying you're open minded to other people's opinions, yet in the plan itself acknowledging such, and still making statements of "But you SHOULD do this..."

And when I give MY opinions, you prefer to be ignorant to them, or not want to acknowledge them.

I find this to be hypocritical, and it seems like you're running away from what was initially a simple resolution - I told you I was happy to agree to disagree...
--------------------------------
POINT 3
In your desperation, you

Does this "no plans, ever" philosophy apply only to Mafia or do you apply it in other walks of life?

Personally attacked me, which I think goes against the grain of what you suggested was your analytical and calculated style - - why lose composure enough to do that?
-------------------------------

I'm interested in what others have to say on the subject.

Those are points = my position and opinion, and the final one is a point telling you why at this moment I'm simply uneasy with you.

I can pass it off, I mean was it a slip of frustration? An the hyocrisy of saying ppl could share opinions and you not caring for them?

We can have our difference of opinion and let the game play out - - I was clarifying how I felt about the situation - you can relate, yes?

[AndyTony]

@Clu-

I haven't lashed out at anyone, I've been clarifying and more than willing to agree to disagree - - is that unreasonable?

ekim lashed out at my logic, and personally attacked.

I've been more than diplomatic.

- -praytell - - What are your thoughts on post 76?

[AndyTony]

What I believe is that people are regarding my posting as rants that don't deserve to be read (post 76) - - I have thoughts and opinions and would like them treated with the same consideration anyone would deserve - and that involves at least acknowledging them in detail

So Clu - and everyone else - I'd like some input

[AndyTony]

I'd like to start by thanking you for reciprocating the diplomacy - your post is straightforward and clarifying.

If you are concerned that a player is acting in a pro-town manner to curry favor with the town rather than out of a genuine desire to see the town succeed then you ought to be able to say

why

you think that is what is happening in that specific case.

The "why" - is because it was so early.

The reason it was early, is because of your position on white noise random stages.

Do you see where our signals got mixed up, here?

I don't have an FoS or Vote on you because if I embrace your position on white noise stages, it makes sense that you would make a suggestion EARLY - - it would have otherwise been scummy to me.

I wanted to clarify WHY I was curious about it, you've answered it by expressing your position on not wanting to wait for the meat of things to get rolling, and that explains it.

I only wanted it to be understood why I found such an act odd.

What sucks is that in passionately trying to express and clarify, people are pegging me as antagonistic - - I think I'd like to get more input and conversations from other ppl before the day gets tight for time

[AndyTony]

Happy bday, FL!

[AndyTony]

In general, you make the impression to me that you try to draw everyone in meta-discussion: first the vote matter (which at least had some reason), now it’s the “Was it a plan or not?” stuff. I think I’m open to different approaches to this game but yours looks just plainly unhelpful for finding scum. And this I find scummy.

Unvote. Vote: AndyTony.

Uncle Pain, you've put me at L-1 with what I feel isn't a very strong case.


1.I had a dispute with Emp over the use of the word random - - And the second dispute was with ekim over a misunderstanding (that was resolved)
2. I haven't tried to loop anyone in on meta discussion, that's not a goal in anyway - - can you please elaborate?
3. You state that I'm "unhelpful in finding scum"

Are you suggesting you would like me lynched for the sake of utility?
Do you think you help the town when you opporutnistically L-1 me instead of discuss with others - you're sure they're all innocent, you've heard enough from them all, have you?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
The questions you're asking FL, by the way - - take a deep breath, do some Uta Hagen exercises and Stanislavski's four brothers and find ideal centre - - - now open your eyes, read the forum, and see where I already address the hypocrisy you point at FL

fuzzylightning

:

I will admit, I am biased against Empking in most cases because he doesn't normally provide much help to the town.

FoS: AT

for bringing meta into the discussion

Don’t you think this is somewhat hypocritical? First you admit to use meta on Empking, then you attack AndyTony for using meta?

Yours ^

Mine ...

FoS: AT

for bringing meta into the discussion.

Every game is different, and just because someone played one way in one game doesn't mean he/she is scum or town based on the way he/she is playing in this game.

In all fairness, your bias is a form of basing your gameplay and regard for a player on meta as well - I'm just the first to have voiced it. And I too have seen serious votes in the random stage/weak arguments for votes - and it's from Emp mostly - - for anyone that's played with him, he'll vote someone passionately with very little to go on, hence I inquired about the vote, I didn't attack.

FL brought up the "Meta talk" you held against me - -he pushed the subject, I wasn't trying to steer ANYONE toward meta - I mentioned it once, but in NO WAY tried to start a discussion on it, I stick to my opinions, ppl stick to theirs -

Are you trying to take the reins on my scumhunting here? You say I don't contribute or help town, yet my questioning is good enough for you to steal/use? That's hypocritical
------------------------------------------------------------------

In general, you make the impression to me that you try to draw everyone in meta-discussion: first the vote matter (which at least had some reason), now it’s the “Was it a plan or not?” stuff.

So you start your case on me saying I try to draw people into meta discussion - can you elaborate on how I try to draw ppl into

discussing

meta, and how I try to draw them into it? Were there multiple attempts?

"The first vote matter" - - can you elaborate on how this constitutes a reason to put me at L-1? I didn't vote or FoS, I made an inquiry

"Was it a plan or not?" stuff? - - Did you read the last few posts between ekim and I, and see where our misunderstanding was? What was scummy?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think I’m open to different approaches to this game but yours looks just plainly unhelpful for finding scum. And this I find scummy.

Unvote. Vote: AndyTony.

You're open to different approaches, but want to vote me for mine? - Can you elaborate?

What makes my approach different? Of asking people questions regarding posts - - Please elaborate

Unhelpful for findins scum? - - Can you elaborate on how putting me at L-1 for these loose and unclear reasons makes you feel confident I'm scum?

or are you sticking to calling me unhelpful? that's your reason? You want to make an early utility lynch?
--------------------------------------------------------------------
This whole thing stinks and seems opportunistic - - I don't like being on L-1 without having seen an actual case laid out with evidence - concrete evidence -

I ask that everyone please consider Uncle Pains action in putting me at L-1 and to further re-evaluate their votes on me. I believe before him, I have a vote laid on me in addition to the random stage vote - - if in re-evaluating, you take your vote off, it is appreciated.

I think UnclePain is scum because he is:

Opportunistically

putting me at L-1 (weak case)

Hypocritically

saying I'm unhelpful and can't scumhunt, yet using my own questioning

Utility Lynching

intentions behind his vote

Those are my three positions on him.

There are above quotations for my references if you all need.

Vote:Uncle Pain

-------------------------
Uncle Pain, that's how you vote someone. You find them scum, and can connect it to things clearly. You don't disagree with them asking people questions and opportunistically try to have them lynched for utility purposes - - I find that extremely scummy.
--------------------------------
For those of you who aren't like Uncle Pain,

I trust you will please question me on anything you like - - if you find a single thing SCUMMY about me, please present it and I'm happy to address it. That's all I can do at this time - let the L-1 heat begin...!

[AndyTony]

I never used meta to determine his allignment - in fact I never called him town, or scum - I clarified to you that his meta made me bias to his nature and I therefore asked him a question.

FL - - you only had that to say after the last couple posts?

You had no thoughts on the current situation?

Does anyone in this town, for that matter?

Maadnet, emp, Clu? No wonder I'm getting a weak quick lynch with no evidence of scum on me - - I'm the most active and it's being taken advantage of

[AndyTony]

@UP

--My bias on Emp (shared with FL) made me inquire about his actions - -I didn't threaten the town by risking a possible towny life by voting him, I simply got trapped in an Emp hole - that whole thing was a dead issue

--My encounter with ekim was not random or useless. I was FULLY justified to be suspicious aboud a plan being stated in the first post from someone on the first page - - our MISUNDERSTANDING was that I hadn't fully embraced the fact that ekim doesn't like white noise nonesense to start a game - - I had NEVER encountered it, and thus we discussed - - also resolved on both sides - - nothing wrong with my behavior - - I also, still, did not risk a possible towny life by voting him - - I inquired, asked questions, tried to understand more before making a solid vote - - when the understanding came, I found a peacefully ground and let it lie, I've got no beef with ekim.

Those two instances of my gameplay make you think I'm scum and should be lynched? No interrogation, no red flag questions, no solid concrete scumtells, you just want me lynched?

And you must understand that there was confusion in the use of "meta" - - it's a word that describes an "abstraction" from something - we often use it to refer to a player's past gaming (don't get me wrong, it CAN involve present ones, it just has more weight, I find, and orients more to past stuff)

That being said - - What is your case outside of the two above instances (which alone still mean nothing? What are you doing?)

You admit you overlooked my FL question, you admit I'm interested in helping the town.

You admit you haven't heard much from everyone and aren't certain who's who? Then why vote?

This will let me branch into what a utility vote is for you.

A utility lynch is when you don't lynch someone for being scum, but rather, not being (in the eyes of the person voting it) "the right kind of town" - whether that's following the herd, playing a certain way, etc. - - If anyone else on the board can add or adjust the definition, please do - - but the idea of it is lynching without knowing fully/caring the person it scum
------------------------------

So you said your case on me was my:
Gameplay within the two instances (Emp/Ekim)
I'm not helping the town
-----------------------------------

The Emp/Ekim were inquiries about white noise stage gameplay - - one person, I was suspicious based on previous games and asked a few questions before they too were guilty of dragging it out (the agreeable emphole). The second, if it weren't for the ekim's position on white noise stages, was perfectly unerstandable for me to be suspicious about!

You furthermore admit both were resolved.

You then admit I could be helping the town

You admit you're not certain of who everyone is

The issues may have worked out but I have a problem with how they were put up by AndyTony to begin with. It’s just too odd for me to believe it’s only oversensitive or overcautious.

I agree they were not scumtells

by themselves but I find his behaviour scummy in the context of things, as elaborated above. Of course

I could be badly wrong about him

and just take his posts the wrong way. But currently he doesn’t give me this impression so my vote stands.

And the reason I'm voting you, again:

You're being opportunistic (L-1 for me with a weak case)
Utility lynching (You haven't proven or admitted I have scumtells)
Hypocrisy (Flip flopping on me being useful to town, taking my arguments - - if you couldn't read that post, how well could anyone trust you have read into anything else?)
-------------
You squashed your own case when your two points hypocritically got conradicted - - the two instances (you admit had no scumtells) - - boom, gone.

you're left with thinking I don't help town. As if that weren't a weak enough opinionated reason to try and get me lynched, you admit I'm helping and thus kill off your last reason - -yet the vote still stands because of....my behavior?

Yet - - you distance yourself in the above quote/post - - you distance yourself and make statements about how you could be terribly wrong about me.....I think you're trying to cover your ass when the mislynch goes down and people turn to you....so you can be able to say "hey...I SAID I might be wrong..." - - poor thing.

Your distancing is also added to my list of reasons on you. My vote stands on you sir, with a much stronger case.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

And for the record? There hasn't been any poor gameplay on my or anyone's part nor such that hurt the town - - You should know by now that every single post no matter how big or small helps us to determine people - - look what's happened here! I've had two conversations, yet here we are seeing a potential scum come out of the woodwork to attack me - you lol

And I think you should research Uta Hagen and Stanislavski, they're far from therapy, but if you're still interested (on a personal note) they're awesome.
----------------------------

The vote count is me at L-1 and a few people that still have their white noise votes on, I think.

Please, everone get back

[AndyTony]

UP

In my re-read, I spotted you also called your case not waterproof

you then gave me sarcasm when I said present me with scumtells and I will address them - - your sarcasm doesn't make you look very good when you tell me they're there and later admit...there aren't...you say you don't have scumtells, just a vote on me for your opinion on my behavior that you admit can be terribly wrong?...yeesh...

---
so once again - if anyone has something to address with me, please do so and we can discuss -

Otherwise, there's UP's magical vote on me, a RANDOM vote, and Emp.

[AndyTony]

The issue isn't clear, I'm happy to address questions, really - - your issue seems to be that you're not sure what to make of my gameplay.

Emp - - His meta drove me to strike up conversation with him. He has played MANY MANY a game where he'll vote people for anything, especially when it's small and unsupported, so the vote in the white noise stage from him struck me as "Uh oh...is he starting this soon?" - so I asked a few questions. It was indeed agreed that both parties dragged that out - I hadn't done anything scummy, either.
The semantics was about "Joke/Random" - but the issue was to know whether it was "Serious" or the ABSENCE of it being "Joke/random" - - when it was cleared up, it was dead for me

Ekim - - Had he not mentioned any position on how he plays and feels about white noise stages (which I'm not used to at this point in my gameplay) I would have been full in my rights with my position and suspicions.

I'm not assuming everyone agrees - I'm not sure where that statement comes from and in all fairness, people would have to post a bit more for me to get that impression, no?

Clu - Im at L-1. Do you see scumtells or are you, UP, and Emp going to keep me there? This game isn't big enough to have mistakes to learn from in the lynching process.

And I'm thinking scum is either waiting to hammer, or on the wagon already (both) - I'm confident UP is one, he's too eager for a lynch with me at L-1.

I don't want anyone to comfortably think the second is on the wagon as it would give immunity to anyone that hammers me for all of these amazing reasons that merit the lynch of a person in this town and in no way risks everyone regretting it the next day - It's quite the case: "Not sure what to make of his behavior or gameplay...death **shrugs**" - -

Please - if everyone could just PLEASE present me with scumtells and questions, I just want to address them, otherwise, I need to understand what you're trying to kill here...

Same page??

[AndyTony]

I'm appealing to common sense and diplomacy -

And now it's a waiting game for me to hear from everyone else.

[AndyTony]

FL: I've posted more words than you, I've posted more posts than you and I've only missed one day. How am I the lurker?

The lies are (off the top of my head):

AT saying our votes weren't random

and more importantly him

saying Clu had agreed with him when it was clear Clu hadn't

.

His case: "Me lying"

Lie 1/Bold 1:

Me saying the votes weren't random was an opinion and perception - - it's fair to say I was

incorrect

however there's no way I can lie about such a thing
-------------------
Lie 2/Bold 2:
I said that Clu agreed I wasn't lying - -

@Empking. No, it isn't true, but I don't think AT was lying, just getting the semantics mixed again.

You have no case. I'm on L-1 and there are no scumtells/evidence on me

I'm not surprised that Emp has a vote on me without evidence/a strong case, but Clu and UP are curiously confident with a lot of doubt in their posting.

UP - - admitted that I tried to help town (with the FL question)
-------admitted that there are no scumtells on me
-------His case has absolutely NOTHING on me except for his opinion on my behavior (which he further admits can be terribly wrong, in an attempt to distance himself from responsibility when I don't flip scum)!!!

Clu - - I still urge you to re-evaluate your case as well

---------
Everyone get back to this, please - I feel like I'm losing my mind! Nobody has a problem with this?

Confirm Vote: Uncle Pain

- he's opportunistic and his case is scummy - I'm alive because his partner could be on the wagon and can't quicklynch -

[AndyTony]

I took it at face value because it wouldn't be concrete to call it scummy (as in no chance it could be towny)- - when looking back, you explain you hate white noise stages because they're "retarded" - - you said your meta was to not vote random, so I looked into it and it checked out, this isn't the only game where you've done that.

I would really appreciate not making statements like "quaking in fear" - - they offend me, they have nothing to do with the game, and the only purpose they serve is to tar and feather a player - - you're subliminally telling anyone who reads that statement that I must be scum and am terrified right now - - This is an internet game. On a forum.

And I'm not appealing to emotion - there's no "please don't lynch me" - "please believe me" - - it's not me begging people to invest in things like personality or gut feeling - - what I'm doing is NOT an appeal to emotion - -

I'm showing you guys (without leaving any room to leave something out in my post) that the three cases on me are NOT enough to lynch me!

We lynch scum - - nobody has proven I'm scum - - nobody had any scum evidence on me - - I'm just amazed this isn't clicking.

This is a game I regarded as intellectual - - Why is nobody jazzed at the idea that I'm a victim on a scum wagon?

ekim - - that's all you had to say about EVERYTHING? You wanted to know why I didn't persecute you for having a style of playing this game (no random votes)? That's because I don't like getting persecuted for MY style of playing the game and could relate

--You were surprised by UP? That's it? Ekim, what are your THOUGHTS on the idea that UP is potentially scum for this?

--What are your thoughts on Empking having a vote on me with no case?

[AndyTony]

Uncle Pain, you're telling me Im taking things out of context, and then apologizing and rewording, that's backtracking - -

--You painted me as someone who was actively working against the town (completely opinionated) - - and then countered it by saying I could indeed be helping - - you DID say that

--You SAID "I agree they are not scumtells" and I held true to the last of your quote which was you thinking my BEHAVIOR is scummy -- which is still opinionated (and thus jsut as weak)

--And having me lynched, and saying things to the effect of "I could be wrong" IS distancing yourself - - and clearly you didn't read where I DID give you an example of what you would say day 2... here's another- - "Hey guys, I wasn't 100%, I even said it was possible he could be town, but you have to admit, he was pretty scummy" - - Though I wasn't scummy, was I? I haven't thrown around votes or FoS's willy nilly, I've made inquiries and clarified things.

--I didn't FoS Clu because I find you the most scummy for initiating this, Clu hasn't offered anything new to the case, his is seemingly the same as yours and just as weak - - I told him to re-evaluate instead of repeating what I said to you, to him.

--So far, your whole case is one big opinion, a gut feeling on me based on what? I haven't called people scum until you went Salem on me - - diverting the town and distracting would have to at some point involve me trying to call someone scum or start a wagon in the wrong direction - - you're making it sound like I've been building elegant cases, I had TWO conversations, man lol
-----------------------------------------
Your opinionated case referrs to the two conversations

Emp

Ekim

------------
Why, in the post where you vote me...

I rather regard it as a misunderstanding over how one regarded a simple word

This is okay and I think I believe you here. Still you used it as an argument for some time without acknowledging Empking’s (quite valid, although a bit exaggerated) point of view. It’s okay to defend oneself – but one should always be open for other points of view.

Why agree it was a resolved misunderstanding and decide in a stream of consciousness post to at the very end, vote me?

You believe me, yet burn me regardless?....
-----------------------------------------

So my take on this is that AndyTony is overeager and/or overcautious;

while I find it noteworthy, I don’t think it’s a scumtell at all.

-----------------------------------------------
Emp - please regard the earlier post where I took your very two points against me, and showed you how they don't work. What is your case now?
-----------------------------------------------
Clu - - WHAT QUESTION?

What scumtells?

****Clu, everyone - you're all dodging MY question - do you all find it hard to make a clear list/case? What makes me scum, guys? It's kind of entertaining trying to figure this out lol

[AndyTony]

Uncle Pain's Case

• 
  My "Emp Conversation". I'm being accused of making big deals out of little things.
  

  To FL. I said

  I mentioned you to express a point to Emp - -
  
  I said

  your vote wasn't random

  , and you agree -

  I'm not telling you it was/wasn't serious, that's for you to decide

  .

  This is before I even have the head to head with Emp - I've already acknowledged any semantic issue, and clearly stated that his vote, I do

  not

  regard as serious!
  
  Emp's immediate post, following, is:
  

  Unvote
  
  Vote: AT

  
  
  This is a serious vote.
  
  AT

  lied

  . (

  Fl did have a random vote

  and its not like it was hard to find.)
  AT

  lied

  again. (i did random vote)
  AT acted like a single random vote on a player without any votes was trying to make a bandwagon.

  What we learned at the end of the ENTIRE head to head was that when he said "Fl's vote was random" he meant "It wasn't serious"
  
  You see? I already said so!! The conversation was pointless, Emp is the one that pushed it, I spent the entire time being provoked by him calling me a

  Liar

  - - And I even said this to all of you!
  
  So what's scummy?[

Yet you still hold it against me, UP, even after saying it wasn't a scumtell - - it was an Emphole, and an unfair one, the first two posts before the whole things started prove that!

It was EMP who was twisting words and trying to distract everyone!

So my take on this is that AndyTony is overeager and/or overcautious; while I find it noteworthy, I don’t think it’s a scumtell at all.

But you still hold it against me.

• ekim conversation
  I didn't call ekim scum, tell him I suspected him, nor did I attack him. After I expressed my feeling against role claiming, he immediately after that post - before the conversation even built, said:

  You find planning ahead foolish? I would have thought the opposite belief would be more natural.

  He pushed it, not me.
  He passed judgement on my opinons and started the "planning" conversation - - I had an issue with talking about role claiming early, and he defended it by saying that planning ahead couldn't hurt (so to speak)
  
  We ultimately saw the error and it was cleared, but you all must understand that I'm not starting any of this, and it takes two to tango.

-------------------------------------------------
Clu - I felt that you agreed I wasn't lying. that's all I ever cared about, it wasn't about the semantics.
-------------------------------------------------

I'm not seeing scum yet.
------------------------------------------------------

Straight forward questions

If everyone could answer.

- - Can we agree on this - -

Are we going to Lynch scum right now?

If no, please re-evaluate, or explain why utility is appropriate and fair.

If yes, What is scummy about me?

Please list the evidence clearly.


*By evidence, I do hope we can connect to concrete quotes and such rather than gut feelings and opinions that you all doubt and could regret morning of day 2*

I would seriously regret joinging a game where one is guilty for not conforming to gameplay you're all comfortable with - - Yes. I'm over-cautious.

I feel like things would be more clear if we listed them as such

[AndyTony]

To add -

ekim is the one who didn't seem to like people being opposed to his ideas as you say I've been -

And that's just a point - no, ekim is not scum for it, I'm just saying that good evidence is something that can't look town like, and can't be applied to more than one person - otherwise, what am I doing on the chopping block?

[AndyTony]

**Limited access today - moving home from school for the summer

[AndyTony]

That's absolutely not evidence enough for me and I'm ashamed that your gameplay has resorted to semantics as poor as you've tried to apply to ME.

There is confusion. It's with our definition of words - and now, you are the one holding it against me and allowing them to rein over.

Did I not, in my early posts, before the head to head with Emp - make it VERY clear that I did not find the votes to be random, however did not dictate if they were SERIOUS.

When you said that they were not joke votes in the strictest sense (as in, not automaically serious by not being jokes) - - were you not on the same page as me?

Again - - When you said they were not joke votes in the strictests sense - - did that not equate to when I said they were not random, yet not serious?
----

How was that a question? How was that something I could address when we had all agreed our semantics were messed up?

So after what I just pointed out - - I'm to understand that I'm scum?

That's amazing lmao

right on, buddy...

[AndyTony]

ekim - I understand your feelings on the meta in the last game, but the only thing that's different is that I didn't have votes laid on me, the pressure of L-1, and I hadn't fought nearly as hard.

- - On a side note, was there anything unclear on where I drew up the beginning of the head to head with Emp? Where I had made it clear about the difference between joke/random and serious and where my position was? - - It's important to me that everyone at least acknowledges it. I hadn't started some huge conversation, Emp did - - and I got sucked in trying to clarify that I wasn't a liar - - the whole thing was dead for me when it was done and over with but I feel like the whole town is making bigger deal out of it than it is, and in such a way that wrongfully makes it seem like I started the semantic argument.

[AndyTony]

Again, that's just wordplay.

I can't see how you're still insisting there's a difference between a 'random' vote and a 'non-serious' vote.

----------------------------------------
yes,

they were joke/random/non-serious

. So no, we weren't on the same page.

Again - - When you said they were not joke votes in the strictests sense - - did that not equate to when I said they were not random, yet not serious?

That's closer to what I actually said, but this is the first time you've actually properly touched onto it.

Are you aware that it's you who isn't understanding?

I'm telling you that I AGREE that the words are THE SAME - -

I made it VERY CLEAR - - I said that there was more than one person on the first page who made votes that were not random, YET NOT SERIOUS - - What I'm saying, honey, is that I didn't say anything to instigate the semantic argument that I proved Emp started.

Did you even bother to read the post where I showed you my quote - - where I say a vote that isn't a joke, doesn't fall back onto serious? Where I MADE that distinction IMMEDIATELY - and Emp was the one who RIGHT AFTER that post started a confusing semantic battle? - - did you not bother to read it?
-------------------------------------------

I'm pretty well ashamed of everyone on this board who truly believes there's a case of me being SCUM - - there's nothing on me. I have NEVER encountered such ridiculous rationalization on this board, this is the first time something like this has happened, and I could now care less for this game.

I'm cop. Can we get this the fuck over with now, so that the whole town can see that "honey" over here should really GET A CLUE before she puts it in her name.

Vote : AndyTony

Fuck this town - I hate stupid people

[AndyTony]

After my death is finalized - - my call is that Uncle Pain is scum - he was opportunistic

Emp's case was crushed by me in an earlier post - - both his points of evidence -- yet he had me at L-1 with little to nothing.

And Clu could just be some idiot chick out to feel powerful and smart in the way her cubicle friends don't give her credit for around the water cooler. - - or scum.