Open 159 - Lovers Mafia - Game over before 823

[camn]

/confirm

[camn]

YOu are scum for that reason.

[camn]

You are scum if I die N1.

You are scum if >I< die night 1!

And besides.. my grudge is long-fulfilled.
I have no need to kill you anymore.

In fact.. my list is almost entirely populated by

DGB

's list right now!


PS.
I also agree with incognito.

[camn]

um.. I'm not feeling any romance between us.

[camn]

I had to dig through all the dumb forums to find the thread cuz there wasn't a link.

Why didn't YOU?

[camn]

and yeah...how DID you know?
are you here watching me?

[camn]

You are a

mafia lover

. You and your lover, XXXXX, want to enact your revenge on the townspeople who looked down on you. When one of you is lynched, you both die. Because the game is nightless, you have no kill. However, you are allowed to daytalk with your partner here: XXXXX.

You win when the mafia outnumber or equal the amount of town players

.

[camn]

Camn: I did. Why are you accusing me of not doing so?

Reflex.

[camn]

Can we start? I really wanna vote camn.

Im not feeling any romance between US either!

/sniff.

[camn]

1st off..

I didn't fake anything. I used the first-post.

2nd..
Incog.. go ahead and lynch me.

If I am scum for not noticing I had a PM.. and MORE IMPORTANTLY.. if that is what suffices for "scumhunting"..... than this should be my first mislynch.

Go ahead.

but before you do...ask yourself:
what would be the scum motivation for me not /confirming???

at 6:56 pm (my time), a full 5 hours after I confirmed..... Slicey opened this topic.
So what would I have gained by the delay?
Planning time?
Was the daytalk thread even open?
what plans could I have made???

And bringing in this kind of out-of game shiv doesn't seem right to me.
As soon as I read my PM.. I found the thread and confirmed.
That should be clear by my answer to your question.
If I had known it took 3 hours.. I would have made something up.

But i figured that you meant 10 minutes.. so I answered honestly.

Plus.. OMGUS.. is it a scumtell? You seem to imply that it is.

[camn]

I was just mad that you were on my case from the get go.
I am over it, now!

How can you confuse 10 minutes with 3 hours?

It was both!
It was only 10 minutes between me OPENING my pm and me /confirming.... I guess it just took me 3 hours to actually open my pm!

What's the difference here? Or have your thoughts on this kind of stuff changed?

Maybe they have changed.
All I know is it felt so crummy, like saying I am scum for not checking my email enough!
It would be like me being scum because I only change my oil once a year or something! How can I fight it???

Maybe thats why I was so pessimistic. I felt like there was no way to have a reasonable debate about whether or not I am a flake! /sigh
Luckily.. this morning I remembered my

true calling

:

Bathe in the blood of my enemies.

FOS: Incog

Ether was scum when she tried that confirmation-timing attack on town-Incog in Mini 771.
It was a scum crap-case then, Incog KNEW that it was crap then, and thus it must be crap now.
In fact, his play here is TOTALLY reminding me of Ether in 771.. even before he brought it up....

preview edit:
Asking you why you delayed was totally a joke!
At that time I wasn't even aware that I had delayed... cuz to ME, I opened the PM and went straight to confirm... so I figured you couldn't have been THAT much faster than me! I never looked at the times at all!
It like when someone says something.. and I immediately say the same thing about their mom.

[camn]

Ok.

[camn]

You noticed!

[camn]

And yes.. I DID think Ether was townish.. but I was proven wrong, no?

And truly.. I had a vote.. but I replaced it with a FOS.
I don't think my case is very strong.. and MORE importantly.. I don't think it is

defensible

at all.. thus you need to get scummier before you earn my vote!

[camn]

Vote: Nachos

Spyrex, I don't care what you say, I'm meta-ing you.

I'm not happy. I blame Spyrex. I shall explain why later.

.....and possibly Spyrex, although I am unsure about his alignment.

Unvote
Vote: Kmd4360

Also, I want your opinion of Spy now.

Do I get a 'please'? I don't react well to demands.

@ HAYLEN:

1st off.. who is Nachos?
2nd.. What is going on with you and Spyrex?
I read the above quotes as distancing. (not bussing) . . where you are intentionally trying to convey some sort of LACK of connection between the two of you, without coming out and doing it.
So what's the deal? What did your meta-ing him reveal?
Why are you not happy? Just cuz you closed the window?
Why did you avoid KMD's question?

@KORTS:

Just because scum used a particular kind of logic doesn't mean that particular kind of logic is scummy.

But Ether and Incog are tight.. so I tend to think he is pretty in touch with her play.
Plus.. he said in this thread that it made ETHER look town (although she was actually scum) to use that confirmation-attack.. thus it goes to HIM using it to look town, no?

...but you can't conclusively prove that you opened your PM only at the time of your confirmation, so the existence of Incog's case is justified.

I think my initial response to Incog's question actually DOES prove that.
He asked:

Camn, why didn't you confirm as soon as you opened your role PM?

Which I basically DID.. though I remember being annoyed that there was no link! So I interpreted his question as : "Explain the few-minute delay".
My immediate interpretaion of his question as THAT tends to support the fact that I actually confirmed right away, no?

Of course he then FLIPPED the question around, which I think is suspect...
He changed it from
"Explain the delay between OPENING YOUR PM, and /confirming.."
to
"Explain the delay between SLICEY sending the PM, and you confirming..."

Essentially, camn took AT LEAST a whole 2 hours and some change just to confirm within thread.

I think that is him trying to force the case at BEST.. and actual scum craplogic at worst.

@ INCOG

I don't have firm opinions on everyone yet! Give me a couple pages!

[camn]

Hm.

Well, I certainly don't think this game is old enough for anyone to have been 'tunneling'.
I also don't think this game is old enough to have even SOFT cleared anyone.

I am not really worried about quote wars.. this is only a 6-person game!

And Haylen... Please. Please tell us. About Spyrex. I don't go out of my way to meta people... so I wonder what you come up with!
Also.. why do you think KMD and I are

buddies

LOVERS

?? This interests me HIGHLY.

Now for my confession:

I was telling Incog the other day that I have a great deal of anxiety these days

about being town

.
I used to only be anxious when I was scum... but then it came to my attention that I have NEVER been lynched as town!
So I, of course, am feeling incredible performance anxiety.
Pressure to keep the streak alive!

Anyway, although Incog says not to, I think the solution is to actually go ahead and GET mislynched!
Obviously I won't do that

on purpose

.. but I want you guys to know...

I would rather it be you to violate me in that way

... rather you guys than a bunch of overeager newbs!
So if you are inclined to look for explanations (and I think some of you are!).. that might explain my initial freakiness.
I have found my center since then!
I am a placid pool after a spring shower.

[camn]

Her reasoning interests me, yes.

[camn]

I am inclined to clear Spyrex right now.

[camn]

Haylen. Chill.

[camn]

BTW..

the Lovers = Korts and Incog.

Obv.

[camn]

a) im tipsy. maybey more than that.

b) getting mislynched is no problem if you go on to win.

c) I will not bold for you.

d) look at spyrex's post. he is obvtown.

3) incog = ether

f) korts is acting fishy. I dont know what it is.. but its fishy.

[camn]

KMD is not tunneling.
KMD can't have cleared us that early!
KMD is not obvtown, like spyrex.

RE: Incog.
YOU HAVE TO BE SCUM SOMETIME!!!!
You can't ALWAYS be town!!!!

Statistics be damned.

[camn]

I know all that stuff.. BUT I'M JUST SAYIN!!

Plus.. what is your defense?
You know that Ether was scum-driven when she did it... did you think it was a pro-town move.. that just happened to come from scum?

[camn]

Hmm.
Well, that throws off my world-view a tiny bit.

Why would scum do something so pro-town?
Before you say "to look town" remember that we both nailed her Day 1, right?

[camn]

I'm not using it as an offense.
HOWEVER.. the more games I play with incog-town.. the more I am WAITING for incog-scum to show up. It has to be some time. FrRls!
Statistics be damned.. no one can always be town.

Incog=Ether because he did the

exact same thing

Ether did in a recent game... and Ether flipped scum.
But, if I believe that INCOG really thought it was a pro-town play.. then it is not as damning.
My previous supposition was this:

-Scum KNOW thier accusations are false.
-Thus..Scum cases are scum-logic-cases.
-Ether attacked Incog on /confim grounds.
-Ether was scum.
-Thus the /confirm case was scum-logistical.
-Incog KNEW all this.
-Incog argued the /confirm case.
-Thus INCOG was scum-tastic.

However, Incog disputes point #2 ("Thus..Scum cases are scum-logic-cases.")
Incog states that SOMETIMES, scum cases are pro-town cases?

Hmm.

I am going to have to mull over the logic of this.
How can a scum-driven accusation of a townie be pro-town?

[camn]

I have no real problem with a KMD lynch.... although I don't really see the case.

TBH, as Spyrex and KMD know, this game has been getting a little overshadowed by a DIFFERENT game that we are in....
But I will try and do better. I like you guys more.
(I AM out of town this weekend though!!)

Anyway.. I think KMD has kind of lulled me to sleep by calling me 'obvtown' right away....
Maybe I have been overlooking him.
Let me check him in ISO.
Hmm.

Nope. Dont see the case at all.
He is townhunting.. which might be a good strategy given the fact that we are all so chummy. Sometimes it is easier to find townies than scum.

OF COURSE.. it is REALLY easy if you know who they are.

I obv wouldn't dancing on KMD's grave... but I am not convinced enough to hammer right now.
PLUS, I think it is a little early, no? It hasn't even been a week and you guys are all up in arms!

PS.. you are right, Incog...
I like you guys so much I almost forgot my intense need to kill.
That is weird.

VOTE: KORTS

1) I think townhunting is TOTALLY legit.
2) Who takes classes in the summer?
3) WHAT quote wars?? this is a 6-person game!!
4) Ketchup.

[camn]

that's your response?

and Haylen...
Thats simply how it is spelled.

[camn]

/snore.
Take the train.

I am also out of town this weekend.

V/LA till Sunday night.

[camn]

Scum ARE easier targets than town, in my experience.
And Im not fishing for any wagon... I am encouraging you to get in the game!

[camn]

You are fishing for support, that is.

Oh really.

Can you point out a single instance where I solicited support for your wagon?
I don't think you can.
You will know when I am looking for support.. cuz I will say something like this:

Hey KMD, don't you think Kort's OMGUS quasi-attack is a little far-fetched?

THAT is me looking for support.

But MORE interesting is.. why are you avoiding commenting on KMD's impending death?
It seems like, if >I< were catching up, I would put some thougth into somebody at L-1.
Especially if >I< had helped to start the wagon.

Unless I already knew their alignment, that is.
Then I might spend more time defending against a silly pressure-vote.
Wouldn't want to derail a town-wagon. Or look scummy for piling on.
Gotta walk the line, right?

Or am I wrong?

But why not press the case, if you REALLY think he is scum?

Instead you simply say

KMD: ...Slight pro-town points there for not muddying up the thread.

But let your vote stand.
Is KMD really not about to die?
Your selected target is about to die.. and that is all you say about it?

Hmm.

[camn]

You only had 5 posts.. how much of a case can you expect!?

[camn]

why not?

[camn]

So, why aren't you scumhunting?

[camn]

I am.

1stly, You AREN'T... BUT
2nd, I personally don't consider that much of a tell. However.. apparently
3rd.. YOU DO, so you seem internally inconsistent to me. Which i DO consider a tell. but
4th.. You still avoid the topic of KMD. Funny.

If so, why the hesitation there?

Im in no hurry. This game is like a nice warm bath.
Plus, You and Korts can't logically both be correct, right?

Either I am going for the Easy target.. which is Korts.. (as Korts claims..)
Or KMD is the easy target (as you say).. and I am NOT going for him, which means I am NOT going for the easy target (as Korts claims..).. which means Korts is scum

Or they are BOTH easy, in which case you can hardly fault me for choosing one.

The truth is, Easiness doesn't factor into my decisions.

-Korts needed pressure.
-Korts responded to the pressure in an unsatisfactory way.

-KMD GOT pressure.
-Korts responded to KMD's pressure with an unsatisfactorily explained Unvote.

Hmm.

[camn]

PS. This is a 6-person game, guys. . .and among friends!
There should be no "quick skimming".

[camn]

Ah, well.

A) I contend scum are easier TARGETS, because they tend to act scummy! BUT, this is given all things being equal.
B) YOU contend KMD is an easy target.. not me.
C) KORTS thinks I am going after an easy target.. not you OR me!
D)

this game is so much better than a game I was recently killed in...

Thus?

Korts/Haylen scumteam FTW.

The real question here is:

Why did Korts Unvote KMD?

[camn]

4thly, what of Kmd? My vote served its purpose, and now that I found something that is not an almost-nulltell I feel much more comfortable voting you..

Am I correct in thinking that this implies your initial vote on KMD was for an "almost-nulltell"?

[camn]

So, to help me here..
what is the difference between a "terrible null case" and a vote for a "almost-nulltell"?

Are they the same?

[camn]

So really.. you are saying that the difference between your vote on KMD, and my vote on you is the difference between a Null-case and an ALMOST null case?

Just trying to see where you are at, you understand.

[camn]

Camn, I think Korts is scum with Haylen. Wanna lynch one of them? I don't care which.

Yes, I do.

camn, who do you think is Korts' buddy? What are your thoughts on Haylen?

I could see YOU being his buddy. But I think right now I could see Haylen being his buddy.
I think this is an atypical setup, in that no bussing can be tolerated. No post-scumlynch connections or non-connections apply. So normal scum-interaction is slightly moot. Plus, there is daytalk, so corrective action can be immediately implemented.
Just saying... weird mechanic.


PS..
Rereading 121.. I meant to say I WOULD dance on KMD's grave. I WOULD.

But

I am not feeling him as scum today.
I would DANCE ON HIS GRAVE.

(I mis-typed "wouldn't". I combined the thought 'wouldn't mind seeing him dead' with the more lyrical 'dance on his grave')

[camn]

PS. This is a 6-person game, guys. . .and among friends!
There should be no "quick skimming".

lolza. Don't mix what should be and what is, please. This is not theory, this is practice.

PS.
I would lynch Korts just for this.

If you can't pay attention to THIS GAME.. you don't deserve to be in it.

NO SKIMMING!

This game is NOT a quick moving flame-a-thon. You can afford to pay attention.

[camn]

Korts, what is your opinion of Haylen? I can't tell from reading you in ISO and using Ctrl+F to search "Haylen".

Now that you make me think of it, pretty much the same as camn. She uses terrible logic, and construes nulltells as scumtells.

Alright, Korts.. just cuz you are sore at me doesn't mean you have to get nasty!

1stly, my logic is good.

2ndly.. I don't even really believe in tells, null-, town- or scum-! I just go with things. GOSH!

3rdly, your 'case' on me isn't that strong, EITHER, sir.. so maybe you should look at the man in the mirror. He's asking you to make a change.

4thly.. @Haylen.. in this game, buddying is certainly no tell. In MOST games it is nothing, in this game, I think it would be weird if we DIDN'T buddy up!

5thly, korts.. you say my vote for you was serious.. even though I cited all jokey reasons? Is it just because of the big Font? really? Cuz I would have said it was just in lieu of any stronger case to be pushed.

[camn]

UNVOTE.
VOTE: HAYLEN.

[camn]

.... cause no ones ever told me any different, therefore, it must be true.

Craplogic.

The 'Appealing to Authority' as you so nicely put it, is actually something my History teacher taught me at college on how to form arguments, and I think I would rather listen to somebody who has a PhD in that sort of thing rather than you.

You just appealed to authority to explain appealing to authority.

I can argue this until the cows come home.

Which would have nothing to do with this game.

Well, I will admit that I'm downplaying my ability. Why? Cause I'm paranoid. I was taught at a very young age to never show your whole hand......

A) Only scum have hand.
B) Playing poorly is not pro town.
C) I don't even think this is true. I think this is this game's version of a soft-claim. YOu are trying to dangle the carrot of some secret, inside awesome that you MIGHT pull out for us.... only if we dont lynch you.
It is just like me softclaiming a power role so that the observant townies among us will lay off the heat, without me actually having to explain WHY I want them to lay off.

And its bogus. And scummy.

D)

Maybe scum should quickhammer?

That actually would be awesome for the town.... But you saying it out loud makes it less likely to happen. Boo.

[camn]

a) I was scum in Cr3t1ns.... why would I want to help you?

b) I'm not debating whether tunneling is a tell.

c) I contend that:

i. selective scumhunting =/= picking one player to focus on
ii. JUST cause no ones ever told you any different =/=

anything

being true.

d) point ii. above is the especially craplogical part.

e) you TOTALLY appealed to the authority of your history teacher to 'prove' the validity of using an appeal to authority! This cannot stand from a logical perspective. I am not saying using a logical fallacy is scummy on its own..., but PERSISTING in using it once you know it is flawed IS.

[camn]

It depends on their reasoning, of course.

[camn]

It depends on their reasoning, of course.

Are you admitting knowing i'm town then?

Don't be silly.
If you ask a hypothetical question, you get a hypothetical answer.

[camn]

Yeah, I don't agree with a bunch of stuff she's said, but I think she's reacting to pressure the way town would.

I am interested in a Korts lynch.
Also.. I agree with the above statement.

[camn]

Look.. this game is hard!

Just cuz a hypo-scum-haylen has yet to fold doesn't mean she won't!
And my not agreeing with her statements AS YET outweighs my town-reaction-read.

I am starting to think maybe I am right re: incog/korts.
BUT, I like L-1. there are no snippy newbies here to quickhammer . . .and no night-phase to hide behind. L-1 is where the rubber hits the road.

NOW..
Haylen:
YOur post.. #228.. is totally flawed in every way.
I was wondering if anyone else would bother pointing it out.. but no one has.
Re: cr3tin's...
a) no one has said your logic is ALWAYS craplogic. Why would you imply we had?
b) You got your butt kicked in that game. Right or wrong, you were ineffective.
c) you have proven nothing.

That said, I await your rant.

[camn]

A) Incog-- Im town.

B) Haylen.. I wasn't mafia in Cretins.

C) I want the rant.

[camn]

If the pairing was me/Korts, what's really preventing either one of us from concocting a case against Haylen and lynching her right this moment?

Actually.. I have been hoping you would.

...all seem to be pretty obvious attacks on her reaction to said pressure?

Like I said.. I don't like how she is playing.
But the $1M question, as always, is.. just cuz I don't like it, does it make her scum?
You know I have no way to be SURE. No one else seems to care about the same things I do.. and I am not really getting a coherent debate going.......so....
Does that mean I should ease up on the pressure?
I don't think so. Not until something else catches my fancy.
BUT..
Am I getting MORE convinced she is scum? Not really. Am I SATISFIED as to her townieness? Not at all.
Thus, my vote stands.
If anything, it is useful on drawing out people's commitment to her lynch... or lack thereof, which you and I both know can be helpful info later on.

[camn]

Are you now claiming that you didn't see Haylen's responses as townly, after all?

No, I do.. but it is a gradient. They aren't quite town ENOUGH.
Plus.. like when I said "Korts needed pressure" earlier... Haylen needs pressure. EVERYONE needs pressure at some point so we can gain information.
I think that goes to something of my underlying D-1 philosophy.
-Im not good at D1.
-I don't make good cases
-I rarely find scum.
I use Day 1 to build a lot of info on a lot of players, so that I can be more effective later on.
Can you show me the scum-motivation behind playing this way?

Are you admitting to being lynch happy? If you expect Incog/me to be scum, why do you want

Haylen

lynched?

a) Yes, I am a bloodthirsty whore.
b) If I am WRONG about Haylen, I would love for one of you guys to do something exceedingly scummy, expose your true nature to us all...so that we would win.... obv. I can afford to be wrong if it means a town win!

@ Haylen:
I don't really Meta much.
You know how you played in Cretins.
You know Incog and I are here.
thus, hypo-scum-you would obv imitate your play as town in cretins.
THUS, your meta defense is null and void.

What do you think about Kort's comments in 250?

[camn]

You quoted someone outright saying that Haylen is town, and you explicitly said that you agree full stop. That's all there is to it.

Here.. I'll repost the exchange so that you can get it right.
I meant exactly what I said.
If you read carefully, you can see Incog isn't "outright saying" she is town.
I think Incog chose that line very carefully, so as to be accurate. He tends to do that.
And regardless of his meaning.. I agree with what was WRITTEN.

Yeah, I don't agree with a bunch of stuff she's said, but I think she's reacting to pressure the way town would.

I am interested in a Korts lynch.
Also.. I agree with the above statement.

But since you suspect Haylen enough to have her lynched, why would hammering her be "something exceedingly scummy" in your eyes?

I think it is clear that if Incog totally changed his tune and unexpectedly hammered.. that would be scummy, don't you? SO, to avoid your misrep.. it was the "concocting a case against Haylen" that I was particularly hoping to see. THAT would be the scummy part.

Your skimming is hurting your game, I think!
Or are you intentionally misunderstanding what I write?

What does the fact that I haven't suggest to you though?

It gives us all info for later on. Your position on Haylen is clear. I think this is a good thing, no?

PS.. why did Korts unvot ME, then re-vote ME in post 250?

[camn]

In fact, you decribed your playstyle and then said my meta is null and void in the same post. Bit hypocritical, dont you think?

I am not using it as a defense.So no, I don't think that.
The difference is I am trying to clarify whay I am doing.
You are trying to 'prove' you are town because you did it as town once before.

My point is this:

If anyone knows their own town meta.. then they play to it. As scum or town.
You can't say "Oh look, I am playing like I always do as town".. that doesn't mean anything.

And I don't think I am saying that about myself at all.
But I don't think YOU(haylen) are actually trying to push towards clarity in this game. I think you are pushing the game towards LACK-of-clarity.. which would be of benefit only to scum.

@ Korts: it depends on the case you concocted And it depends on if you and he are scum, or if you and HER are scum, or if HE and SHE are!
You and incog could react to Haylen being at L-1 very differently, I think.... funny thing is, you have reacted the SAME.
I don't know what that means yet.. but someday we will!

[camn]

In your last post you managed infer that everybody except yourself and Kmd are scum.

You first.
Back up this statement, if you can.

This is a fine example of how you are pushing the game toward confusion.
You say stuff like that, that has little basis in reality, with no backup at all.

@ Incog..
I CERTAINLY know how to play to my town-meta
I don't really think she is playing the same.
And I don't like that she is using that game as her defense for this game...

That said, I admit it.. I am not convinced she is town OR scum.
But I get a scummier read from her than from You, KMD or Spyrex.
The real question is is she scummier than Korts... which is no question at all.. since we only need to lynch one scum

That said, I am probably going to let the isssue lie for a couple days.. I need to hear more from KMD and Spyrex.

[camn]

EBWOP

If Haylen's town, I think both scum would have to be on the wagon already at this point.

See.. THIS is what I am looking for.

We need a lynch today that gives us that kind of information, if they happen to flip town.
I don't know if Haylen is it or not.. but If we could be in a 5-person game with the town split in two, and both scum on one side... I sense a win.

[camn]

1)

...From a hypo-camntown perspective, if she agrees with what I've written about a poss-Haylentown and the scum being within the three people currently voting for her......

Gosh this is a game of the finer points!
I want a lynch that

splits the scum into one group or another.

I, like I said, am unsure if Haylen is it.. but IF she IS.. I would bet the scum are in the OUT-group.
This is not a typical game.. a single mislynch is not that important to the scum, cuz they
a) get no nightkill
b) cannot afford to lose any scum.

The fact that you AND korts have already touched on the theory that hypo-scum EITHEROFYOU would have already hammered.... (implying, of course, you are town).. this seems WIFOM-erific to me. Your coordinated movements remind me that daytalk exists
Of course.. ALL OF THIS we should be talking about AFTER THE FACT.. but you guys are squeezing it out of me.

2)

It's odd to me that camn has been

simultaneously

labeling me as scum but then agreeing with so many things I have to say.

As if that has never happened to you before.

3)

Perhaps I'm an overachiever, but I want to lynch scum right here, right now.

I'd like to lynch scum. But if we miss, I wanna tie it up Day 2.
Besides... You ARE an overachiever, and have answered your own question:

No Lovers Mafia game has ever had a scum lynch on Day 1, ...

So camn, whatcha think of Kmd's current lurking situation?

I noticed he was on V/LA. Didn't you?

[camn]

But you have still infered that 3/5ths of the players in this game (with you excuded) are scum in that quote. Do you deny?

Not at all. I admit THAT. (not what you initially claimed )
I don't think it is any secret that I think there are 2 scum in 3 players.. those being you, Incog and Korts.

---------

You "forgot" that Spyrex was playing?

--------------

OH, And I am going to keep doing this until you tighten up your game:

I would like to contradict your statement that

nothing I say serves a basis in reality

, by saying that is pure crap.

Cite the bold please.
Where did I say that "

NOTHING

Haylen says has any basis in reality"?
I try and go through the trouble to express myself in a clear and specific manner...... how can I do it better?
I must be being unclear.. or maybe you are intentionally misquoting me?

[camn]

I wish I was a day-vig.

I wish you were, too!

BUT...I thought I was being pretty precise!

(I actually think I am playing a pretty tight game lately.. hopefully it will pay off in the end!)

If I agreewith your statements.. I say I agree with them! (which I then catch crap for!)
If I just want to use it as a point of discussion.... I catch crap for that too?

I have been nothing but clearabout my scumlist, have I not? I don't really think there is any "suddenly" about my suspicions...... why would you say that there is?
Do you really think that?
That I am somehow trying to push suspicion onto KMD and Spyrex?
If anything, I think I am being totally negligent in ignoring them! (now I should catch hell for THAT, too!)

Also, Spy.. dont forget this little gem from 267:

Everything I have said can be proven.

----------------

But seriously....lets get down to biz.
(I did kind of space out on the deadline.. I am just having so much fun!)

EVERYONE PLEASE ADVISE!

Lets hear if you support MY

IMMEDIATE

lynch.
No waffling. No cases or reasoning necessary.
I want everyone's opinion on record before the end of the week, please!
I take it Haylen and Incog do... but pls, correct me if I am wrong.

Also.. KMD..
Your last post was an inadequate catch-up post.

[camn]

I think camn and Kmd are scum. Discuss.

You are wrong about me... and probably wrong about KMD.

[camn]

I just am not feeling it. But you MIGHT be right about him.

We'll find out in the end.

[camn]

Nope.
As I said.. I have been

very

neglectful of you (Spy) and KMD.
Maybe tomorrow I will be more critical.. but you both won me over early on!

Haylen, she was kind of implying that I suspected KMD here?... but I can't really tell:

Nope, but you are going to catch hell for only suggesting Kmd is scum after I called you out on it. Yay.

On a theory note...

the hardest lynch is a scumlynch, right? Cuz we need all 4 townies?
No scum will ever vote scum...

SO...if someone is at L-1.. and you are NOT voting for them... then, if they are scum, then ALL the other townies are voting for them, right?

But scum will never join a 3-townie wagon.

Of course, If you somehow got a 3-townie wagon on a townie.. and you had 2 scum who couldn't hammer because they already said they thought the person was town....
that would be interesting too.

Hmm.

I am just tossing around the strategies in my mind. I think there is something there.

[camn]

Hello!

Sorry for the delay..I got stupid Jury Duty.

Anyway...
Clearly we know there was one or more scum on the Haylen wagon.

I am inclined to believe Spyrex..... still.
So if he is right about Incog, then KMD/Korts is the only solution.

I admitted earlier that KMD may have snookered me by being nice early on.. which means I still think it could be Korts/ Incog. But he is looking pretty town. Plus, I like this 'common denominator' deal.. so I will look at Korts again:

---------------------
THIS IS FUN:

for the record, I think Haylen is town and just sloppy at theory. Haylen: holding back is bad play. You shouldn't downplay your abilities; holding your cards close to your chest doesn't refer to showing your abilities, it refers to showing your information.

Then some mild Haylen-banter..
then:

Haylen 255 makes a fair point.

But thenn..

Actually, going through the camn/Haylen exchange again, Haylen's points against camn are rarely even close to valid...

AND THE HAMMER.

THis is almost exactly what you were talking about, isn't it incog?

.....what's really preventing either one of us from concocting a case against Haylen and lynching her right this moment?

Korts basically, after calling Haylen Town, and agreeing with her 'points' against me.. Just said "whoa. I guess she is scum after all! HAMMERTIME!"

Hmm.

A couple more finer points......
After hammering, this comment in post 315?

I voted you, how the flipping fuck is that not an effort to lynch you?

implies to me that he didn't really realize he had dropped the hammer. ..though he caught it on preview edit.. then didn't mention it. He just plays it off like it was intentional. Which seems scumerific.

However.. looking at his points on KMD.. they seem rather lucid.
I could probably be talked into a KMD or Incog Lynch... I probably COULDn"T be talked into a Spyrex lynch... and I support a Korts lynch.

Also, I am town. Lynching me = scum win.

[camn]

No.. you are just ALWAYS obvtown. It's passe.

[camn]

Also, if I intended to hammer Haylen all this time, why did I initially dismiss her as sloppy town?

I think you bought my WIFOM that it would be too outlandish for scum to hammer.
The real question is.. why didn't you pressure her a little before hammering? You must admit it kind of came out of nowhere.

I was fully aware of the importance of my vote, I was simply expressing frustration at Haylen having the audacity to ask me why I don't lynch her

when I JUST DID

.

Why didn't you say that at the time then?

It seems like the perfect rebuttal.

Haylen: why dont you lynch me?
Korts: I just did.

Instead.. I am reading THIS:

Haylen: why dont you lynch me?
Korts: I voted you, how is that not an effort to lynch you? Oh wait. I did just hammer. Whoa.

Good to know, cause you know, you're the only one whose credibility I have no doubt in.

I am glad you finally came around. I am incredibly sensible.

[camn]

camn: what is your opinion of Kmd in light of his most recent post?

My confidence in him being town has been plummeting.

Haylen: why dont you lynch me?
Korts: I voted you, how is that not an effort to lynch you?

And, sorry for being redundant.... but this really doesn't sound like Korts knew he had already hammered... Does it?
Am I the crazy one?
Does it even matter?
I'm not sure it's scummy on its own.. but any coverup seems off.

[camn]

who are you raising?

[camn]

Well.

KMD's play does not inspire confidence.
Do you have a case, KMD?

[camn]

Nice, Spyrex.

Too bad we didn't lynch Korts.

[camn]

GOSH!

I can't believe BOTH you other townies had votes up ON TOWNIES!

GRRR!!!!!

Korts and Spy were probably exploding the QT trying to figure out who to choose!!@#

[camn]

Typical.
Instead of listening to me, like a sensible Incog would.. he was trying some gambit.

[camn]

Before Kmd started his Day 2 silliness I was really afraid I'd have to battle camn to get her lynched--but all's well that ends well.

I was SO READY for this!!!
grrrr..

[camn]

[quote"Korts in QT"]hm, i think we can get away with a camn lynch now. Incog got her nicely cornered.[/quote]

FYI, I am never cornered!!!!

[camn]

I was mostly sober for once!


And you are biased.
Despite her flipping town, Haylen was a good lynch.
PLUS, I still think Korts totally exposed himself by hammering.. you just didn't jump on it!

[camn]

PLus, even in an academic environment.....
an authority is only correct until they AREN'T. Anyone can be proven wrong.
And in this game, scum know the standard tells, too.. so WIFOM everywhere.

If you want to use someones stuff.. that is fine, but you need to believe it, and be able to back it up.

I think the reason it is scummy, is because you can 'hide' behind the authority... you can say "Korts is scum for X.. because Tar says so".. and not have any accountability for it in the end.
HERE, AND in acedemics, I think you should say... "tar says X.. AND I AGREE." This is why I agree, and this is why it applies in this case.

It turns out KMD was town, thus the tunneling argument was incorrect, no?

----------------------

@ Incog... why no more games? Just play one at a time?

And I wasn't convinced ANYONE was scum day one.
I thought of all the people I suspected, Haylen would yeild us the most info.
And in fact, I think Korts kind of played into it.. but it got pre-WIFOMed with all the talk of "what if" this and "what if" that.

I was thinking at the time that if we could have stayed on it for a while without all the PRE-WIFOM, EVENTUALLY, any scum would get antsy and hammer, or Haylen-scum's partner would come out of the woodwork in her defense.

My folly is that I was leaning toward You, Incog, being that partner! With your defense of her despite her flawed arguments......